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Eric Fowkes

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May 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/1/96
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I'm curious about some things and wanted to get other
opinions. The first thing that I've been thinking about are
golf carts.

I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use
carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the
spirit of the game" and "carts slow play." As to the "lazy
people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?
In my case I have a bad knee that can't support me for long
distances. When I tried walking I would last until the 7th
or 8th hole where I would inevitably fall over, in one case
denting the green and incurring the wrath of the Greens
Keeper. Carts allow me and others to continue playing a game
we love.

As for "the spirit of the game", give me a break! The game
is about competition. Whether it be between a number of
golfers or simply your own skill against the course, it's
still a matter of hitting the ball from the tee to the green
in the fewest number of strokes possible. Walking or riding
have nothing to do with it.

And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.
The shorter the time between shots the faster the round.
That's a simple fact. I can get to the ball faster in a cart
than ANYONE walking. Unless of course they run from the tee
to their ball. In which case they're not going to be golfing
very well. When I could still walk a course, the fastest
round I ever played was about 2 hours and 40 minutes. At
that I was playing extremely well and didn't have to look for
a ball the entire round. I have played 18 holes in less than
two and a half hours by cart a number of times. If I really
pushed it I could probably do it much faster than that.
Heck, in my high school days my brother, friends and I played
speed golf where the time it took you to finish figured into
your score. We actually played a round (by cart) in just
over an hour! (I forget the exact time although my brother
might remember.)

If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.


Eric

Christopher Simonich

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May 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/1/96
to Eric Fowkes

Eric Fowkes wrote:
>
> I'm curious about some things and wanted to get other
> opinions. The first thing that I've been thinking about are
> golf carts.
>

No problem, comments below.....


> I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use
> carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the
> spirit of the game" and "carts slow play." As to the "lazy
> people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
> people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?

Yes. My father has a bad knee that prevents him from walking.
Even so, it has been my personal experience that the percentage
of people who have a physical limitation is very small. Most
people are either lazy or don't want to expend the energy to
walk. Quite a large percentage of those are so out of shape
it's pathetic.


> In my case I have a bad knee that can't support me for long
> distances. When I tried walking I would last until the 7th
> or 8th hole where I would inevitably fall over, in one case
> denting the green and incurring the wrath of the Greens
> Keeper. Carts allow me and others to continue playing a game
> we love.
>

I understand. Continue playing and continue riding in carts.


> As for "the spirit of the game", give me a break! The game
> is about competition. Whether it be between a number of
> golfers or simply your own skill against the course, it's
> still a matter of hitting the ball from the tee to the green
> in the fewest number of strokes possible. Walking or riding
> have nothing to do with it.
>

This much is true. But there are other aspects to the game as
well. I enjoy going out and viewing the course. It just
doesn't look as good with grass torn up by carts.....


> And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
> that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.
> The shorter the time between shots the faster the round.
> That's a simple fact. I can get to the ball faster in a cart
> than ANYONE walking. Unless of course they run from the tee
> to their ball. In which case they're not going to be golfing
> very well.

Or unless the course is following a "carts on paths only" policy.
Or unless the two people riding in the cart must ride to each
others balls and watch each other hit.


> When I could still walk a course, the fastest
> round I ever played was about 2 hours and 40 minutes.

More than fast enough.


> At
> that I was playing extremely well and didn't have to look for
> a ball the entire round. I have played 18 holes in less than
> two and a half hours by cart a number of times.

Not with people in front of you I suspect. Clearly carts
are faster on an unrestricted course that allows those carts on
the fairways. I RARELY play in cases like that. Normally my
foursome is following a foursome and is being followed by yet
another foursome.


> If I really
> pushed it I could probably do it much faster than that.
> Heck, in my high school days my brother, friends and I played
> speed golf where the time it took you to finish figured into
> your score. We actually played a round (by cart) in just
> over an hour! (I forget the exact time although my brother
> might remember.)
>
> If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
> greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
> godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.
>
> Eric


What more do you want to know? Most of the problems come
from three things:

1) People not playing ready golf from carts,
2) Courses following a "paths only" policy, which slows play, and
3) Course damage from carts.


--
Christopher Simonich
simo...@bangate.compaq.com

4QD

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May 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/1/96
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Eric wrote:
>
> If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
> greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
> godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.
>
>

There is great antagonism to carts over here: we always fel that USA is more
free with them.

Most of the UK antagonism is from the courses - golf carts chew up the grass is
the commonest complaint. Many courses only allow carts if the rider has a
doctor's certificate to prove he needs one, so most of them do go to people wjo
need them.

In UK, the further north you go the less the antagonism. Scotland mostly allows
free access to the courses.

I remember seeing one user who had multiple sclerosis: he had been forced into
sitting in the clubhouse and watching. Suddenly he was liberated again when he
got his cart.

We manufacture controlers for carts and caddies and we have contact with cart
and caddy manufacturers world wide. If anyone wants contact names we will gladly
supply.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Torrens - 4...@argonet.co.uk

----------I use an Acorn RISC-PC 32 bit RISC computer--------------------


Jack Hodgson

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May 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/1/96
to

OK I'll be the first (that I've seen anyway) to take a crack at this.

>...about ... golf carts.
>
>...has it ever occured to any of you that some


>people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?

Most every critic of carts has stated, at one time or another, that this
indeed a reasonable excuse for using a cart. Probably the only reasonable
one.

>As for "the spirit of the game", give me a break! The game
>is about competition.

To each his own, but I'm firmly in the camp that the allure of golf is
multi-layered. The competiton, the quest, the self-discipline, the walking
down the fairway, and more. All of these things combine to create the
complex compassion that we call golfing.

"Ye're makin' a great mistake if ye think the gemme is meant
for the shots. The gemme is meant for walkin'"
--- GOLF IN THE KINGDOM

>And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous

>...


>The shorter the time between shots the faster the round.
>That's a simple fact. I can get to the ball faster in a cart
>than ANYONE walking.

Good for you. But you're unusual in this. The stats show that, for the
average player, a cart does not speed them up.

>As far as I'm concerned they are a
>godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

As I said, for the golfer who is UNABLE to walk, I hope they will always be
available. But I see nothing else that they add to the gemme.

-- Jack

Dave Tutelman

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
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In article <4m88rp$c...@alterdial.UU.NET>, Eric Fowkes <efo...@cdc.org> wrote:
>I'm curious about some things and wanted to get other
>opinions. ...

>I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use
>carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the
>spirit of the game" and "carts slow play."

Just as the rabidly anti-cart people overstate their case, Eric overstates
his case. I agree with much of what he says. What I want to take issue
with are:

>And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous

>that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.

Hardly ridiculous at all. Consider:
- TWO people playing from a cart can get into a lot of back-and-forth
if their shots don't come to rest together.
Strategies for avoiding this may leave a player holding a wrong club;
either he/she hits the wrong club or further adds time to the game
retrieving the right one.
- I played a round a couple of months ago where the policy was "Stay on
the cart path". I probably walked a distance comparable to the length of
the course, just getting to and from the cart. Nobody is going to
convince the folks who participated in the NC RSG Open that carts speed
up anything under such conditions.

YMMV, but I have always experienced slower play with a cart than I would have
expected without.

>If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would

>greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a

>godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

I'll be glad to explain my own antagonism.

It's not to the existence of carts. It's to the "carts only" policy that too
many courses have adopted. I don't care if YOU use a cart. But when the
course uses the revenue from carts as an excuses to PREVENT ME from walking,
my ire arises. It may not be YOUR fault, but I'm still pissed at carts for
this reason.

Cheers!
Dave

DUNNIGAN

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
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>Eric Fowkes wrote:
> > I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use > carts and using
phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the > spirit of the game" and "carts
slow play." As to the "lazy > people" comments, has it ever occured to any of

you that some > people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?
>

Has it ever occured to any of you that
it's awfully difficult to carry a cooler of beer when
you're walking ;-)) Even with the LOOP this would
be tiresome.

I am a walker 95% of the time. But get me
with the right group on the right courses down in South
Carolina and I'm packing the Coleman and taking a cart.
(No coolers allowed here in Mass., gotta loosen up when
I get the chance)

Tim D.


Warren Montgomery

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

>
>I'm curious about some things and wanted to get other

>opinions. The first thing that I've been thinking about are
>golf carts.
>

>I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use
>carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the
>spirit of the game" and "carts slow play." As to the "lazy
>people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
>people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?

I'm one of those who frequently posts on the evils of cart golf,
but first let me say I have nothing against carts as a way of
allowing those not up to walking 18 holes play a normal round.
This is cart golf as it was played 10 years ago, when carts were
used primarily by people who couldn't walk. What causes me, and I
think most others annoyance over carts is that they have become
expected or even mandatory at many courses for people who are
better off walking. This raises the cost of the game for those of
us who would just as soon walk, and makes it less pleasant.

>As for "the spirit of the game", give me a break! The game

>is about competition. Whether it be between a number of
>golfers or simply your own skill against the course, it's
>still a matter of hitting the ball from the tee to the green
>in the fewest number of strokes possible. Walking or riding
>have nothing to do with it.

I won't comment on this, but there are those who feel that the
tradition of the game is walking, and carts aren't consistent with
that.

>And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
>that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.

>The shorter the time between shots the faster the round.
>That's a simple fact. I can get to the ball faster in a cart
>than ANYONE walking.

Yes, the physics would suggest that you can move faster in a cart
so you should play faster, but there are many reasons why golf is
usually slower on courses where everyone rides:

1) Many people just don't know how to use carts, and leave them in
places they waste a lot of time walking back to or fail get to
their ball when it is their turn to hit.

2) Carts are shared by 2 golfers. When those 2 golfers are on
opposite sides of the fairway, you waste a lot of time going back
and forth in the one cart, and lose a lot more balls, than if each
golfer goes straight to where his/her ball landed.

3) My experience at least has been that people in carts spend a lot
more time fiddling with their bags after hitting than those
walking. Cart golfers have to go to the back of the cart, stick
the club in (often awkward since the bag rides high off the
ground), then walk back around and get in. Walkers pickup or pull
the bag off and slam the club back in on the way to the next shot.

4) In my area, many cart golfers are carrying six packs and the
ensuing intoxication generally slows them down and makes them more
obnoxious to other groups on the course. Walkers rarely drink that
much on the course.

5) Again perhaps a local phenomenon, but in my area when given a
choice, carts are more often used by novice golfers and older
golfers with movement difficulties, both of whom play more slowly
than those who are walking.

6) Keeping carts on cartpaths or in the rough always slows things
down. This isn't a problem in my area, but it is elsewhere.

7) Carts have largely displaced caddies. In the old days, Caddies
did much to speed play, by taking care of hazards, making sure
balls didn't get lost, and generally acting to keep thye game on
track and on pace. Without caddies, many people play more slowly.

So, my answer here is yes, if you know what you are doing and play
briskly you can move faster in a cart, but few people do and most
of the cart golfers on courses I play move more slowly.

As I've said before, there is room for cart players and walkers on
any course, and I agree that they are a great way to allow people
to keep laying when physical conditions would otherwise prevent
it. (My father played 10 years in a cart after losing the ability
to walk 10 holes). I just don't like to see them become either
mandatory or expected, and see this as a threat to my ability to
enjoy the game I want to play. I encourage physically able people
to try walking because I suspect many, like me, will enjoy the
experience, and never discover it if they spend all their time on
the course in a cart. It's also a way of adding healthy physical
excercise to a game that too often is accused of being the sport of
couch potatoes. The metaphor for the silliness of our times
in my mind is someone who hires a lawn service to do their yard
work, always takes a cart on the golf course, drives any distance
greater than 1 block, yet has a basement full of excercise
equipment and belongs to 2 health clubs.

---

Warren Montgomery
Lucent Technologies, formerly AT&T's systems and technology business
ixserve!warren or w.a.mon...@att.com

John W. Griffin

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
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Eric Fowkes <efo...@CDC.ORG> wrote:

> I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use
> carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the
> spirit of the game" and "carts slow play." As to the "lazy
> people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
> people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?

Of course. That's a perfectly good reason to use a cart. But when
I go to a flat, easily walkable course and see 10 carts lined up at
the first tee, something's wrong. What are the odds of *all* of those
riders having a physical limitation?

Golf is an ideal method of getting some exercise along with a few
hours of relaxation. People will spend a few hours a week cooped up
inside at the gym, sweating through running and stair-stepping, but
get them outside in the fresh air to play a few hours of golf and
they can't walk a few miles? That's lazy. And what about the ones
who look like they could *really* benefit from walking?

> As for "the spirit of the game", give me a break! The game
> is about competition.

Well, everyone has different reasons to enjoy the game. I think the
spirit of the game is being outside on a beautiful piece of nature with
some friends. We all enjoy trying to shoot as low as score as possible,
but that's not the only reason to be out there.

There's something to be said for walking up a fairway after sticking
a 5-iron to 10 feet, putter in hand, a slight breeze blowing past
your cheeks, the towel on your bag brushing the back of your legs,
feeling the crunch of the ground beneath your spikes, chatting with
your foursome about the shots you just hit.

> And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
> that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.

Ever heard the phrase "carts on paths only"? Ever seen carts
zig-zagging from one side of the fairway to another between balls,
with each rider watching the other hit?

Carts will speed play *ONLY* if the foursomes are well-spaced,
no back-ups occur, they are allowed on the fairways, and the riders
have some inkling of how to use them properly. That doesn't happen
very often on the courses I play. Carts promote "hurry up and wait"
golf. I get stressed in carts because I feel I have to hurry from
shot to shot, wait a couple minutes for the hole to clear, hit, then
jump back in the cart to speed off to the next place to wait.

Carts don't allow the player to get into a rhythm, IMHO.

> If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
> greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
> godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

Further points:
- Carts give the beer-guzzling crowd a place to put their coolers.
If you want a beer while you're playing, that's fine, but too
much usually leads to slow play and very poor etiquette.
- Carts damage the course. Soil compaction is a huge problem. Keep
them on paths, and we're back to the slow play issue.
- Cart paths. What place does asphalt or concrete have on a golf
course?? They're usually placed in the worst spots. Yes, I've had
a few lucky bounces off paths, but more often than not, bouncing
a shot off a path will get you in deeper trouble.
- Carts are often an excuse for course operators to jack up fees.
Courses with mandatory cart policies should offer caddies as an
option. I'd gladly pay the cart fee (or more) for a caddie and
I bet I'd play faster and better.

--
John W. Griffin
ts...@agt.gmeds.com

Dwight Williamson

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
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** Reply to note from Eric Fowkes <efo...@CDC.ORG> 05/01/96
5:09pm GMT


> I'm curious about some things and wanted to get other
> opinions. The first thing that I've been thinking about are
> golf carts.
>

> And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
> that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.

> The shorter the time between shots the faster the round.
> That's a simple fact. I can get to the ball faster in a cart
> than ANYONE walking.

Al I can offer here is anecdotal evidence based on my experience.
Logic would tend to be on your side, IF you have one player per
cart. However when there are two players per cart that logic
starts to break down. I can't even start to tell you how many
times I have seen two people in a cart; player A hits a slice,
player B hits a hook. Both players jump in the cart and go to
Player A's ball and hit, then proceed to player B's ball. This
generally takes considerably longer than the same situation where
player A and B are walking/pulling. Another recurring example; I
play just about every Saturday morning at the same course, most of
the time we have the first tee time and play as a fivesome. Most
often we are followed by some foursome in two carts. Typically by
the 18th green we have opened up a 2 - 3 advantage over the
foursome in the carts. Not always, but often enough that I can
definitely say there is a distinct pattern. Everyone in our
fivesome walks or pulls, plays ready golf, and walks (not runs)
briskly to our next shot.

> If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
> greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
> godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

Actually I really don't care if other people use carts. What
pisses me off are courses that REQUIRE you to use carts or courses
that are designed with long hikes from one green to the next tee
that almost make a cart a requirement.


> Eric


Dwight Williamson
*****************************************************
** Go to other people's funerals, otherwise **
** they might not come to yours. **
** Yogi Berra **
*****************************************************
All expressed opinions are mine and should not be otherwise construed.

Anthony Brinton

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
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On Wed, 1 May 1996, Eric Fowkes wrote:

> I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use
> carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the
> spirit of the game" and "carts slow play." As to the "lazy
> people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
> people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?

> In my case I have a bad knee that can't support me for long
> distances. When I tried walking I would last until the 7th
> or 8th hole where I would inevitably fall over, in one case
> denting the green and incurring the wrath of the Greens
> Keeper. Carts allow me and others to continue playing a game
> we love.

I agree with this to a point.....I had to use a cart exclusively for
about 3 months 3 years ago cuz I was physically unable to walk...I had my
jaws wired shut and was under strict doctors orders to not get winded,
because its hard to catch your breath when you cant open your mouth.
what irritates me is when you have 20 year olds in perfectly good health
riding...I have been there....

{snippage}

>
> And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
> that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.
> The shorter the time between shots the faster the round.
> That's a simple fact. I can get to the ball faster in a cart

> than ANYONE walking. Unless of course they run from the tee
> to their ball. In which case they're not going to be golfing

> very well. When I could still walk a course, the fastest
> round I ever played was about 2 hours and 40 minutes. At


> that I was playing extremely well and didn't have to look for
> a ball the entire round. I have played 18 holes in less than

> two and a half hours by cart a number of times. If I really


> pushed it I could probably do it much faster than that.
> Heck, in my high school days my brother, friends and I played
> speed golf where the time it took you to finish figured into
> your score. We actually played a round (by cart) in just
> over an hour! (I forget the exact time although my brother
> might remember.)

I can utter the phrase....and give you an explanation....cuz this just
happened to me on the course again yesterday....2 golfers sharing a
cart.....2 golfers tee off......2 golfers hit tee shots in completely
OPPOSITE directions...golfers drive to closest ball....golfer 1 selects
club to hit golf shot....golfer 2 waits for golfer 1 to hit
shot.....golfers go to #2's ball.....golfers attempt to locate
ball...golfers find ball....golfer 2 selects club and hits
shot....golfers again hit shots that go in completely opposite
directions..same process goes again....its time consuming usually cuz
people are too lazy to walk a little bit in between shots....when I am
carting with someone...I will usually have them drop me off at my
ball....I will take 2 or 3 clubs to make the shot....and tell them to go
on to their ball and make their shot......then I will walk to the cart
after making my shot.....same process for me every time......

> If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
> greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
> godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

My uncle would agree with you Eric....cuz he's also got bad knees....


> Eric
>

David Meier

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

I missed the original post, but I'll put my $.02 in ...

When a golf course is crowded, carts do NOTHING to speed
up play. All you do is get to your ball faster so that
you can sit there and wait for the people in front of you
who are waiting for the people in front of them, etc, etc.
I played at a course last weekend that required carts
before 2:00 PM. We teed off at 12:30 PM and did not get
into the club house until 6:00 PM. That's 5.5 hours and
a twosome in a cart were in front of us. Glad I had to
spend that extra $12 when I could have walked around for
$30.

The only reason that courses have carts is to make even
more money on top of the high greens fees that they already
charge. I know that there are alot of other people out
there who realize this and eventually it has to stop. Even
the USGA is realizing this is a problem.

Now, if you have a physical problem that causes you to be
unable to walk the course, that is fine. In fact, I think
that a great injustice was done in the late 80's when a
Senior Tour golfer was told that he could not compete in
the Senior US Open while riding in a cart. He had just had
his knee replaced and could barely walk let alone walk 4
rounds. He played 9 holes in a great deal of pain in protest. He should have
been able to ride. The cart was not going
to give him an advantage.

As far as calling people who ride in carts lazy, that is
a gross generalization that is probably not true at all.
I do not really care if someone wants to use a cart, but
I want the choice. I don't like carts and I should
be allowed to walk if I want to. Also, people who use
carts should use them wisely. Don't go to one person's
ball, wait for them to hit their shot, get back in the
cart, drive to the other person's ball, wait for them to hit
their shot, etc. All of this is a waste of time on the course. Have one guy
drive to his ball and the other guy walk to his. All the wasted time going
back and forth to people's shots
could be avoided.

Enough ranting, I'm getting angry just thinking about
last weekend.

Dave

Terry Pierce

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

> >And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
> >...

> >The shorter the time between shots the faster the round.
> >That's a simple fact. I can get to the ball faster in a cart
> >than ANYONE walking.

You must be the guy who plays ahead of me in a cart. Drives like
hell to get to his, ball, then spends 10 minutes pacing around the
fairway trying to get a yardage, going back to his cart 3 times to
change clubs, and basically plumb bobbing his 200 yard shot. He's in
such a hurry to get to his ball, thinking that this is FAST, that he
doesn't have the time to approach his ball from behind while contemplating
(while walking to the ball) exactly what he wants to do.

I refuse to ride a cart. Even at a course that forces you to take a cart,
I put my bag on the cart, grab a handful of clubs and WALK. By the time
I get to my ball, I know exactly what I want to do, exactly what my yardage
is, and I am ready to hit when I get there!

As an example of walking being faster, I recall a 54 hole tournament I played
in last year. I was in the first group of the day. All four of us walked.
We finished 18 holes in 3:20. Group scores were all below 74. The foursome
behind us rode carts. As we finished the 18th hole, they were just starting
the 11th. They all turned in cards with scores in the same range as ours,
(none worse than 75), when they eventually finished in 5 hours. This happened
each day for 3 days. This is just one example, but I have NEVER seen a foursome
of competent golfers play a course walking take longer than an equivalent foursome
riding carts. People riding carts waste a LOT of time.
--
=====================================================================
TERRY PIERCE || pie...@admin.son.uab.edu
UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA || tpi...@wwisp.com
SCHOOL OF NURSING || all opinions are mine alone
=====================================================================

Terry Pierce

unread,
May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

Warren Montgomery wrote:
> I just don't like to see them become either
> mandatory or expected, and see this as a threat to my ability to
> enjoy the game I want to play.

Hey Warren,
They may be able to make you pay for the cart, but they can't
force you to actually ride in it. Although I too, resent having
to pay for a @#$@! cart.

Dan King

unread,
May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

efo...@cdc.org (Eric Fowkes) writes:

I'm one of the more adamant cart haters, so I guess I should chime in.

>I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use
>carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the
>spirit of the game" and "carts slow play." As to the "lazy
>people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
>people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?

No problem. I'd like to see each course have maybe half dozen
or so carts and when you show them a doctors excuse for needing to
ride, you get a cart.

>As for "the spirit of the game", give me a break! The game
>is about competition.

I like this quote:

"Walking also enables us to watch a hole unfold in front of us. To
walk a course is analogous to driving a long distance rather than
flying. While driving, we see the country instead of racing over it.
There's a human scale that flying cannot offer."
--Lorne Rubenstein

My opinion is that there is so much more to golf than competition.
If competition was really all it was about, virtual golf would become
more popular.

>And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous

>that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.

Enough people have answered this that I can just say I agree with
them.

>If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
>greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
>godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

My biggest problem with carts is that they have now influenced
course developers and designers. They changed it from an 18 hole
experience into 18 separate experiences. The idea of flow and
routing of a course are no longer important. find the 18 best
spots for holes (or the ones that fit best into the housing
development) and build holes on those spots. Don't worry about
getting the golfers from hole to hole, the carts will do it. Many
new courses exist where walking is not an option. I hate this
change to architecture. I went to a presentation of the new
Rees Jones course in Northern California. The speaker made a big
deal about Rees being a traditional architect. I asked about
walkability of the course and they said it would be very difficult.
Hard to consider a course a very difficult walking course a
traditional course.

It also drives me nuts that a beautiful golf course such as Pebble
Beach has been hurt by the addition of concrete golf paths.

Carts have also hurt junior golf in the U.S. In the past a kid
could get a job caddying at the local course. Caddying gave the
kid ample opportunity to play, practice and just be around golfers.
Traditions and etiquette for the game were learned from the caddy
yard.

Dan King
djk...@netcom.com
dk...@nas.nasa.gov

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I think golf carts take a little piece of golfs quality away. The
tradition of the game is being passed by because revenue is the
number one consideration. There's money in carts.
--Richard Zokol
--------------------------------------------------------------------


James M Hoskins

unread,
May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

Terry Pierce <pie...@admin.son.uab.edu> wrote:
[...]

>People riding carts waste a LOT of time.

I believe the USGA has the research statistics to back
up Terry's assertion, at least to the point that a
foursome walking is quicker on average than a foursome
riding --don't know about the cart players wasting A
LOT of time, that would depend on the group.

(hope that people participating in the cart debate don't
talk past one another...if you like riding a cart no one
who's pro-walking wants to deny your playing the game the
way you want. However, golf as a walking game is in some
peril. Golfers increasingly are denied walking rights by
course owners. It's a revenue issue that's justified by
the fradulent claim that "carts speed up play."

We will be playing a new Hurdzan course at the RSG - OPEN
in September. It'll be fun to evaluate his genius as
an architect (he's been getting lots of positive PR around
Ohio and the US recently) based on whether his course is
walkable.

Played 9-holes with a veteran golfer last night, in his late
60's. His pull-cart (trolley) broke on the first hole. He
stashed it behind a tree and hoisted his bag and continued
on. He was a fit as a mountain goat and I suspect he'll be
golfing many more years. Sure, golf gets laughed at in some
quarters as a bogus fitness activity. But I think it's
because lots of non-golfers equate golfing with riding on
a cart. As someone who likes to walk and play golf this is
as much a quality of life issue as it is about enjoyment.)

Terry Pierce

unread,
May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

James M Hoskins wrote:
>
> Terry Pierce <pie...@admin.son.uab.edu> wrote:
> [...]
>
> >People riding carts waste a LOT of time.
>
> I believe the USGA has the research statistics to back
> up Terry's assertion, at least to the point that a
> foursome walking is quicker on average than a foursome
> riding --don't know about the cart players wasting A
> LOT of time, that would depend on the group.

I didn't give as good of an account of the time wasters that
cart golfer participate in as many others in this group, the
biggest factor being the one player right, the other left
problem.

> It's a revenue issue that's justified by
> the fradulent claim that "carts speed up play."

Right! And this is what angers me the most about it. Course
owners treat their customers like idiots. Anyone who has been
around the game a while knows that this is a false assertion.
What is equally frustrating is all of the people who have actually
bought into this logic. What a load of bull.

I just wish the course operators would be honest enough to say,
"we require you to pay for a cart because even though it slows
play down, we need the increased revenue." But they don't do that
because that would be treating the customer like an intelligent
human being. And another thing, if they didn't buy so many carts,
they wouldn't have to force you to take them to pay for them.

> But I think it's
> because lots of non-golfers equate golfing with riding on
> a cart.

Reminds me of my last physical when my doctor asked about excercise
and I told him that I played golf 3-4 times a week. He laughed and
said that wasn't excercise. I told him that I walked, and he said that
he rode a cart. Perceptions. :)

Jon Nelson

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May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

Eric Fowkes wrote:
<snip>

> If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
> greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
> godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.
>
> Eric

I have no problems with carts. What I do have a problem with is courses
that require everyone to ride. I enjoy walking, and me and a friend can
play 36 holes in 5 hours - provided no one is holding us up.
--
Jon Nelson FFFFF OO RRRR EEEEE
jne...@awod.com F O O R R E
Mt. Pleasant, SC, USA FFF O O RRRR EEE
F O O R R E
F OO R R EEEEE

jw...@lehigh.edu

unread,
May 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/2/96
to

In article <4m88rp$c...@alterdial.UU.NET>, efo...@cdc.org (Eric Fowkes) writes:
>
>If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
>greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
>godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

The "antagonism" comes from those of us who would rather walk, but cannot
because the course has "cart only" rules. I think that carts are certainly
good for people my uncle, who just had his knees replaced and cannot walk a
course anymore. The "lazy" tag is still somewhat applicalbe, because the ract
remains that many people who take carts are capable of walking. I am in not
in shape by any means but I can still walk 18 holes easily, and even 36.

And the speed factor is an issue. You are right that if there is one person
in a cart and he knows exactly where his ball is and he can drive straight to
it then he will get there faster than a walker. But carts are made for two
people, so if one hits a hook and the other a slice then it adds time because
they have to go to one ball and then the other. Also, courses have "cart path
only" rules, so often people are NOT driving straight twords their ball. This
slows up play because of the detour, and also it's not as easy to find your
ball if you don't go striaght at it.

As I said earlier, the main antagonism comes because courses are rapidly
becomming "cart only". This is espcially true of non-municipal (but still
public) courses. By becomming "cart only", the price is jacked up also. Why
should I have to pay for a cart if I don't want one? I've heared the argument
"play somewhere else" many times, but "cart only" is growing very rapidly, and
many of the newer, and nicer public courses are taking this route. A good
example of this was when my father and I took a trip to Arizona this winter.
We stayed at the TPC of Scottsdale, and that course was riding only. I should
be able to play the course that I want without riding.

Jeff Tepper e-mail:jw...@lehigh.edu
Lehigh University Home page: http://www.lehigh.edu/~jwt2/jwt2.html
Class of '98 Georgia Tech Basketball website:
Computer Science http://www.lehigh.edu/~jwt2/gt.html
"Laettner too strong...yes, I said those words together" - Brett Haber, ESPN

Don Kirkman

unread,
May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

.Previously on Usenet, efo...@cdc.org (Eric Fowkes) wrote:

>I'm curious about some things and wanted to get other
>opinions. The first thing that I've been thinking about are
>golf carts.

>I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use

>carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the
>spirit of the game" and "carts slow play." As to the "lazy
>people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
>people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?

>In my case I have a bad knee that can't support me for long
>distances. When I tried walking I would last until the 7th
>or 8th hole where I would inevitably fall over, in one case
>denting the green and incurring the wrath of the Greens
>Keeper. Carts allow me and others to continue playing a game
>we love.

And I think most of us would agree carts for those with physical
problems are a great way to let them remain active and involved. But
what proportion of cart riders *have* physical problems?

>As for "the spirit of the game", give me a break! The game

>is about competition. Whether it be between a number of
>golfers or simply your own skill against the course, it's
>still a matter of hitting the ball from the tee to the green
>in the fewest number of strokes possible. Walking or riding
>have nothing to do with it.

Agreed.

>And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
>that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.

>The shorter the time between shots the faster the round.
>That's a simple fact. I can get to the ball faster in a cart
>than ANYONE walking.

YOU can, and anyone should be able to, but many don't. Have you ever
watched a twosome cart to a ball in the left rough, where one player
hits, then cart across toward the right rough, where the other player
hits. They both watch the ball flight, then head toward the next ball.
(And if the course has a 90-degree rule this just adds to the elapsed
time.) I always walk except for the occasional tournament where carts
are de rigeur, and I can always keep up with the carters, and often am
down the sidelines ahead of them. And I don't run (on the course). Of
course I'm not 70 yet, either, so I may change my ways in a few years
<G>.

>Unless of course they run from the tee to their ball. In which case
>they're not going to be golfing very well. When I could still walk a
>course, the fastest round I ever played was about 2 hours and 40 minutes. At
>that I was playing extremely well and didn't have to look for
>a ball the entire round. I have played 18 holes in less than
>two and a half hours by cart a number of times. If I really
>pushed it I could probably do it much faster than that.
>Heck, in my high school days my brother, friends and I played
>speed golf where the time it took you to finish figured into
>your score. We actually played a round (by cart) in just
>over an hour! (I forget the exact time although my brother
>might remember.)

You're an admirable example of how carting *could*, indeed *should*
work. In my part of the country, the reality is much different.


>
>If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
>greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
>godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

Your last point is granted, and I'm happy for you. In large part, I
think the antagonism is not toward carts per se, but toward making carts
mandatory for those who wish to walk, and secondarily toward those who
misuse carts and in fact do delay the game. Once all the groups are in
lockstep around a course, nobody moves faster than the slowest group,
and in this neck of the woods that usually means 4 to 4 1/2 to 4 3/4
hour rounds.
--
Don Kirkman

Gary

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

war...@psp.att.com (Warren Montgomery) wrote:

What causes me, and I
>think most others annoyance over carts is that they have become
>expected or even mandatory at many courses for people who are
>better off walking. This raises the cost of the game for those of
>us who would just as soon walk, and makes it less pleasant.

I disagree. I don't believe carts raise the cost of the game. I
believe the revenue from the carts keeps the cost down as it increases
the revenue.

>I won't comment on this, but there are those who feel that the
>tradition of the game is walking, and carts aren't consistent with
>that.

Tradition. I guess we should go back to wooden shafts as well.

>1) Many people just don't know how to use carts, and leave them in
>places they waste a lot of time walking back to or fail get to
>their ball when it is their turn to hit.

I have also seen walkers leave their bags in the front of the green or
on the wrong side and have to wait while they amble over to get them
and then walk all the way back across.

>2) Carts are shared by 2 golfers. When those 2 golfers are on
>opposite sides of the fairway, you waste a lot of time going back
>and forth in the one cart, and lose a lot more balls, than if each
>golfer goes straight to where his/her ball landed.

Again, a general statement. When I am riding, I get dropped off if the
other player's ball is elsewhere and I am first to hit. The other
player then preceeds to his own ball.

>3) My experience at least has been that people in carts spend a lot
>more time fiddling with their bags after hitting than those
>walking. Cart golfers have to go to the back of the cart, stick
>the club in (often awkward since the bag rides high off the
>ground), then walk back around and get in. Walkers pickup or pull
>the bag off and slam the club back in on the way to the next shot.

Even if the player takes a few extra seconds to put his club back, it
still would be faster than a walker.

>4) In my area, many cart golfers are carrying six packs and the
>ensuing intoxication generally slows them down and makes them more
>obnoxious to other groups on the course. Walkers rarely drink that
>much on the course.

You'd be surprised how many can stick a six pack in their bag and walk

>5) Again perhaps a local phenomenon, but in my area when given a
>choice, carts are more often used by novice golfers and older
>golfers with movement difficulties, both of whom play more slowly
>than those who are walking.

So, if a player has movement difficulties, they shouldn't play?
A slow player is a slow player, carts or no carts notwithstanding.

>6) Keeping carts on cartpaths or in the rough always slows things
>down. This isn't a problem in my area, but it is elsewhere.

I will admit that having to keep carts on cartpaths slow things down.
That's the only concession I will make. Keeping them on the carts or
on the rough and using the 90 degree rule is fine, though.


Gary


Gary

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

djk...@netcom.com (Dan King) wrote:

>No problem. I'd like to see each course have maybe half dozen
>or so carts and when you show them a doctors excuse for needing to
>ride, you get a cart.

Why, just because you hate carts, should you deny those who want to
use a cart, whether needed or not? To me, that's pretty arrogant.
I walk, but sometimes I will ride. Not just in tournaments when a cart
is part of the cost, but other times as well. For example, in my
evening league, after working all day, I don't care to walk the nine
hilly holes we play at.
In the summer, when the weather is very hot, is another time, I
definitely want to walk.
Then, when I am on vacation, at resort courses.
Why MY riding a cart bothers you I can't fathom.
You want to walk, fine, do so. There's nothing wrong with that.
That's your choice. But don't deprive me of my choice.


Gary

>>As for "the spirit of the game", give me a break! The game
>>is about competition.
>

>I like this quote:
>
>"Walking also enables us to watch a hole unfold in front of us. To
>walk a course is analogous to driving a long distance rather than
>flying. While driving, we see the country instead of racing over it.
>There's a human scale that flying cannot offer."
> --Lorne Rubenstein
>
>My opinion is that there is so much more to golf than competition.
>If competition was really all it was about, virtual golf would become
>more popular.
>

>>And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
>>that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.
>

>Enough people have answered this that I can just say I agree with
>them.
>

>>If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
>>greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
>>godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.
>

Targetmedi

unread,
May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

i once played a round of golf with an 85 year old man (he played tennis
till he was 83) and his 83 year old wife, who used pullcarts (trolleys to
you brits), who when the subject of golf carts came up, said "Golf Carts
are the invention of the devil"

by no means did he or her slow up the course.

His sentiments are mine, exactly.

frank strazzulla

Gary

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

d...@pegasus.bl-els.att.com (Dave Tutelman) wrote:


>It's not to the existence of carts. It's to the "carts only" policy that too
>many courses have adopted. I don't care if YOU use a cart. But when the
>course uses the revenue from carts as an excuses to PREVENT ME from walking,
>my ire arises. It may not be YOUR fault, but I'm still pissed at carts for
>this reason.

I also don't agree with "carts only" policies generally. I think there
are some exceptions which I would accept. One being, as matter of some
designs, courses where there are long distances between holes and
perhaps carts are needed to keep play going. Yes, it is bad course
layout, but reality is that some courses are laid out poorly because
of residential developments.

Another exception might also be resort courses which cater to tourists
and aren't generally used by locals.

Other than that, I have no problem with having those who want to walk
do so. But I don't like posts which make all kinds of accusations
about those who ride. I both walk and ride, depending on the weather
and where I am. When I ride, having a cart DOES NOT slow me or my
group down, as I know the proper way to utilize the cart. The same
when I am walking. It's the player that causes slow play, not the
vehicle.

Gary

Gary

unread,
May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

Terry Pierce <pie...@admin.son.uab.edu> wrote:


>As an example of walking being faster, I recall a 54 hole tournament I played
>in last year. I was in the first group of the day. All four of us walked.
>We finished 18 holes in 3:20. Group scores were all below 74. The foursome
>behind us rode carts. As we finished the 18th hole, they were just starting
>the 11th. They all turned in cards with scores in the same range as ours,
>(none worse than 75), when they eventually finished in 5 hours. This happened
>each day for 3 days. This is just one example, but I have NEVER seen a foursome
>of competent golfers play a course walking take longer than an equivalent foursome

>riding carts. People riding carts waste a LOT of time.


I disagree. Slow players waste alot of time. There is no excuse for
the group behind you to beseven holes behind. It wasn't the cart, it
was the players.

I remember one time being a foursome of my friends being the first
group off the tee one morning. We all drove. Before teeing off, the
starter mentioned that the next group, who usually gets the first tee
time, likes to play fast. We agreed to let them play through if
necessary. But it wasn't. We played, never holding up the group behind
us at all and had a quick and enjoyable round without racing around
the course.


Gary

Warren Montgomery

unread,
May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

>war...@psp.att.com (Warren Montgomery) wrote:
>
> What causes me, and I
>>think most others annoyance over carts is that they have become
>>expected or even mandatory at many courses for people who are
>>better off walking. This raises the cost of the game for those of
>>us who would just as soon walk, and makes it less pleasant.
>
>I disagree. I don't believe carts raise the cost of the game. I
>believe the revenue from the carts keeps the cost down as it increases
>the revenue.
>

I know the common claim is that golf courses make money off of
carts, but I've never seen statistics to confirm or deny this.
Yes, the cart fee is a nice source of quick cash, but there are all
kinds of less direct costs:

Buying, fueling, and maintaining the cart.
Cart facilities (sheds, paths, etc.)
Repair of cart damage to the course.
Insurance covering accidents associated with carts
(probably not major, but who knows?)

When you add up the costs and revenue, I suspect that carts aren't
nearly the money maker people think they are, but most of the costs
are long term or fixed and the revenue usage dependent, so once the
course acquires the carts, it has a big incentive to push them.

>Again, a general statement. When I am riding, I get dropped off if the
>other player's ball is elsewhere and I am first to hit. The other
>player then preceeds to his own ball.

All of my statements here were generalizations. If everyone used
their carts properly, carts wouldn't get such a bad reputation.

>Even if the player takes a few extra seconds to put his club back, it
>still would be faster than a walker.

Not necessarily. Most of the time this happens is hitting second
shots. The walker who picks up and goes is out of the way almost
as soon as they start walking. It doesn't matter at all that it
will take that person several minutes to walk to their next shot,
they aren't in your way. The person with the cart rearranging
their club dividers is in your way until they move. As with
leaving carts/bags in the wrong place, there is no reason for
this. (When I take a cart, I don't change clubs until I reach my
ball.)

>So, if a player has movement difficulties, they shouldn't play?
>A slow player is a slow player, carts or no carts notwithstanding.

No, I didn't mean that, and yes, that person is probably better off
in the cart. I was just observing that carts will always get a bad
reputation for slow play because slow players tend to use them.
One thing that would help is for the novice to get a lesson in how
to play the course first (i.e. how to plan their shots to avoid
hazards, how to manage the cart to not slow things down, etc.)
Hitting lots of shots doesn't mean slow play. I've played with
lots of people who can't break a hundred but can finish 18 in under
3 hours because they don't lose balls, they leave their bag/cart in
the right place, and they don't waste a lot of time taking practice
swings when they are hold up play.

As I said in my first post, if you want to ride, fine, so long as
you play at a reasonable pace and don't hold things up I don't
care. Just don't require me to ride when I don't want to. Most of
the anger directed at carts by walkers isn't directed at those in
them but at the course operators and architects that have set
things up for carts only play.

Gregg Bond

unread,
May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

>war...@psp.att.com (Warren Montgomery) wrote:
>
> What causes me, and I
>>think most others annoyance over carts is that they have become
>>expected or even mandatory at many courses for people who are
>>better off walking. This raises the cost of the game for those of
>>us who would just as soon walk, and makes it less pleasant.

At 12:12 AM 5/3/96 GMT, Gary wrote:>
>I disagree. I don't believe carts raise the cost of the game. I
>believe the revenue from the carts keeps the cost down as it increases
>the revenue.

I don't know about this comment until I see a breakdown of the cart
revenue. How much goes back into the course and how much goes into
the local pro's pocket?
To *force* me to take a cart only to put $$$ in someone's pocket is
objectionable to me.

>>1) Many people just don't know how to use carts, and leave them in
>>places they waste a lot of time walking back to or fail get to
>>their ball when it is their turn to hit.
>
>I have also seen walkers leave their bags in the front of the green or
>on the wrong side and have to wait while they amble over to get them
>and then walk all the way back across.

And I've seen carts parked inches from the green. What does more damage
to the course and the overall enjoyment of the game for ALL golfers?

>>2) Carts are shared by 2 golfers. When those 2 golfers are on
>>opposite sides of the fairway, you waste a lot of time going back
>>and forth in the one cart, and lose a lot more balls, than if each
>>golfer goes straight to where his/her ball landed.
>

>Again, a general statement. When I am riding, I get dropped off if the
>other player's ball is elsewhere and I am first to hit. The other
>player then preceeds to his own ball.

Yeah, but you may be in the minority. I see too much misusage of
carts and course mgt generally doesn't give a care.

>>4) In my area, many cart golfers are carrying six packs and the
>>ensuing intoxication generally slows them down and makes them more
>>obnoxious to other groups on the course. Walkers rarely drink that
>>much on the course.
>
>You'd be surprised how many can stick a six pack in their bag and walk

I haven't seen this and I get out at least 2 times a week. I've
seen water bottles, but a six pack? Get real.

Gregg Bond
gsb...@dcc.edu
New Orleans, LA

Christopher Simonich

unread,
May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to Gary

Gary wrote:
>
> djk...@netcom.com (Dan King) wrote:
>
> >No problem. I'd like to see each course have maybe half dozen
> >or so carts and when you show them a doctors excuse for needing to
> >ride, you get a cart.
>
> Why, just because you hate carts, should you deny those who want to
> use a cart, whether needed or not? To me, that's pretty arrogant.
> I walk, but sometimes I will ride. Not just in tournaments when a cart
> is part of the cost, but other times as well. For example, in my
> evening league, after working all day, I don't care to walk the nine
> hilly holes we play at.
> In the summer, when the weather is very hot, is another time, I
> definitely want to walk.
> Then, when I am on vacation, at resort courses.
> Why MY riding a cart bothers you I can't fathom.

What? Did you read all of Dan's post? He gives you a couple of answers
to your question. He mentions that his "biggest problem with carts"
is the influence on course design. Your riding in a cart (along with
everyone else) contributes to that. Secondly, he mentions the effect
on junior golf and caddies.

Sheesh....don't ask for answers when your questions are answered in
the post you replied to.

--
Christopher Simonich
simo...@bangate.compaq.com

Andy Welch 581-4583

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

>Eric Fowkes <efo...@CDC.ORG> wrote:
>
>> I've seen so many posts on here deriding golfers who use
>> carts and using phrases such as "lazy people" and "not in the

>> spirit of the game" and "carts slow play." As to the "lazy
>> people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
>> people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?
>

This is a fair point and I don't think anybody on this group would wish to
deny you access to the great game. My personal experience has been that
situations like yours are rare. I must have played well over a hundred
rounds as a "walk on single" since arriving in the states. In that time I've
played with countless people in carts, only one of whom had a physical
ailment which prevented him from walking. A few others were way old, although
no older than some walkers I've played with.

By the way, I never played with a single cart rider in England. But that's
another thread.

My personal feeling is that if you want to ride a cart that's fine with me.
Just don't force me to use one.

However my real reason for writing is to bring up the case of Olazabal. Seems
like his career is seriously threatened by his inability to walk. I mentioned
this to my girlfriend the other day and she was horrified that he wasn't
allowed to ride. Her take was that "if a handicapped golfer was good enough
at the game they shouldn't be denied a chance to make their living just because
they can't walk the course". I thought that, in some cases (e.g hot humid days),
letting somebody use a cart would give them an unfair advantage. She thought
not letting somebody play because they were physically incapable of walking
the course was a lot more unfair.

What do you think ?

Cheers...Andy


jw...@lehigh.edu

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

In article <31894b75...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, gar...@ix.netcom.com (Gary ) w
rites:

>d...@pegasus.bl-els.att.com (Dave Tutelman) wrote:
>
>
>>It's not to the existence of carts. It's to the "carts only" policy that too
>>many courses have adopted. I don't care if YOU use a cart. But when the
>>course uses the revenue from carts as an excuses to PREVENT ME from walking,
>>my ire arises. It may not be YOUR fault, but I'm still pissed at carts for
>>this reason.
>
>I also don't agree with "carts only" policies generally. I think there
>are some exceptions which I would accept. One being, as matter of some
>designs, courses where there are long distances between holes and
>perhaps carts are needed to keep play going. Yes, it is bad course
>layout, but reality is that some courses are laid out poorly because
>of residential developments.

But the problem is that it isn't ONLY those courses that do that. Even
courses that are easy to walk have "cart only" policies. Dave T perfectly
describes the feeling I (and probably many other cart antagonists) have twords
carts. And the BIG problem is that now you have these new, nicer courses
around that are all adopting cart only policies. It's slowly but surely
getting to the point where the only courses that allow unrestricted walking
are the cheaper but not as nice municipal courses.

>Another exception might also be resort courses which cater to tourists
>and aren't generally used by locals.

That's still not a reason to have a cart only rule. My father and I took a
trip to Arizona for a few days right after new years, and we were appalled
that many of the courses there are cart-only. Just because we were on
vacation doesn't mean that we wanted to ride.

>Other than that, I have no problem with having those who want to walk
>do so. But I don't like posts which make all kinds of accusations
>about those who ride. I both walk and ride, depending on the weather
>and where I am. When I ride, having a cart DOES NOT slow me or my
>group down, as I know the proper way to utilize the cart. The same
>when I am walking. It's the player that causes slow play, not the
>vehicle.

That's true to a point, and you definitely have a good point that just because
one rides doesn't automataically mean that they paly slow. BUT I still think
that carts can play a part in a slow group. The player causes slow play, but
in some cases the cart may have an impact on slow play also, for reasons
already discussed in this thread.

Paul Laughlin

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

jw...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:
>
> In article <4m88rp$c...@alterdial.UU.NET>, efo...@cdc.org (Eric Fowkes) writes:
> >
> >If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
> >greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
> >godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.
>
>
>
> As I said earlier, the main antagonism comes because courses are rapidly
> becomming "cart only". This is espcially true of non-municipal (but still
> public) courses. By becomming "cart only", the price is jacked up also. Why
> should I have to pay for a cart if I don't want one? I've heared the argument
> "play somewhere else" many times, but "cart only" is growing very rapidly, and
> many of the newer, and nicer public courses are taking this route. A good
> example of this was when my father and I took a trip to Arizona this winter.
> We stayed at the TPC of Scottsdale, and that course was riding only. I should
> be able to play the course that I want without riding.


In other words you are blaming the carts and the people who use them
when your real gripe is with management practices. Paul Laughlin in
Portland, OR plaugh@aracnet

Richard Torrens

unread,
May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

Reading the comments in carts is very interesting: there is a large differencce
in cart use in UK and USA.

In UK, most carts are one-person only. Yes, some of the larger courses do have
USA made 2 man carts for hire.

It seems that 1 man carts are rare over in USA. We have two manufacturers of 1
man carts that are looking for USA sales. If there is any interest, contact me
and I will put you in touch.

One of them is UK base, the other South Africa. The carts are small, lightweight
and dismantle for easy stowage in a car boot so the style is totally differnt to
the two man vehicles.

Using one man carts would seem to overcome most of the objections that have been
raised to carts in this thread. The carts go at about 6 to 8 mph but our we are
told that they generally are used to ride along with more able walking friends.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Torrens - 4...@argonet.co.uk 4Q D

We manufacture MOSFET controllers for battery operated motors.
Phone/fax +44 1638 741 930 see us on http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/4qd
our www site contaits FAQ sheet on motors & controllers
and a selection of interesting circuit diagrams
-----------We use an Acorn RISC-PC 32 bit RISC computer--------------------


Dwight Williamson

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

** Reply to note from Dan King <djk...@NETCOM.COM> 05/02/96 6:36pm GMT

> Carts have also hurt junior golf in the U.S. In the past a kid
> could get a job caddying at the local course. Caddying gave the
> kid ample opportunity to play, practice and just be around golfers.
> Traditions and etiquette for the game were learned from the caddy
> yard.
>

This is an excellent point. My son is starting to really enjoy golf and
in a few years will be old enough that he could get a part-time job as a
caddy if he so desired....EXCEPT that none of the golf courses in our
general area have caddies. They all rely on carts for revenue and
therefore have no reason to have caddies.

> Dan King

Dan King

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

jhos...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins) writes:

>(hope that people participating in the cart debate don't
>talk past one another...if you like riding a cart no one
>who's pro-walking wants to deny your playing the game the
>way you want.

Hey James don't speak for me :-).

I'm pro-walking. If I had a magic wand I could just wave around
and be rid of all carts, I'd do it. Carts are bad for the game.
They've added a little, allowing those that can't walk to continue
to play, but they have taken far more away from the game.

>However, golf as a walking game is in some
>peril.

And it's in peril because so many people are playing cart-ball
instead of golf. There is no friendly compromise. Carts are
in the process of ruining the game of golf, and it will never
recover.

I'm probably just getting irritable waiting for my vacation to
Scotland this summer :-).

Dan King
djk...@netcom.com
dk...@nas.nasa.gov

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ye see, tha' man got to be famous heer for his walkin'. Twas said
tha' if ye played along wi' him for very long ye'd get the spirit o'
it yersel' and learn to enjoy each and every step. 'Twas said tha'
he sometimes forgot his shots, the walkin' got to be so good. Had to
be reminded by his caddie to hit the ball.
--Shivas Irons (Golf in the Kingdom)
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Eric Schoonmaker

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

<the age-old "cart or not to cart" argument>

First off, let me say I'm not necessarily against carts,
it just seems that the majority of people who use them don't
use them effectively to help speed up play.

Eric Fowkes wrote:
> people" comments, has it ever occured to any of you that some
> people can't walk that distance due to physical limitations?

I definitely understand this situation. A good friend of mine
broke his ankle in a big way when he was in his 20s. To repair
the ankle, he's got a screw holding it together, so he's got
limited mobility walking up/down hills. So, for him, if the course
is hilly he needs a cart.

> And the last one, "carts slow play" is so patently rediculous
> that I don't see how anyone can justify uttering the phrase.

It depends on the cart rules, especially if they have the cart
path only rule in effect. But as I alluded to earlier, some
people who use carts feel that since they're in a motorized vehicle
they don't have to play ready golf.

> When I could still walk a course, the fastest
> round I ever played was about 2 hours and 40 minutes.

That's pretty long, for being a single, I think. Not to turn this
into a "how quick can you play a round of golf" discussion, but I
routinely play alone in the mornings, and I can get done in under
2.5 hrs easily, sometimes closer to 2 hrs. And I'm an 18 hdcp,
so I have my share of lost balls, etc.

> greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
> godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.

It sounds like it. I think people have an attitude against
the people who tool around in the carts, screwing around, driving
too clse to the greens, making tire marks in soft areas, etc, etc.

-Eric

Dan King

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

gar...@ix.netcom.com (Gary ) writes:

>Why, just because you hate carts, should you deny those who want to
>use a cart, whether needed or not? To me, that's pretty arrogant.

Opinions were asked for and I gave it. I gave reasons why I
believe carts have been a detriment to the game. The only good
reason I see for carts is for those that don't have the ability
to walk any more. So I gave a solution for how we can allow
those with ailments to continue to play, but otherwise be rid
of carts.

Course my suggestion has zero chance of ever being accepted. The
standards have been lowered, and there is no way they will ever
get back. To many poorly designed courses have been developed to
ever get the game back from cart-ball. There is still a hope that
the U.K. will not go and follow the U.S.'s example.

>I walk, but sometimes I will ride. Not just in tournaments when a cart
>is part of the cost, but other times as well. For example, in my
>evening league, after working all day, I don't care to walk the nine
>hilly holes we play at.
>In the summer, when the weather is very hot, is another time, I
>definitely want to walk.
>Then, when I am on vacation, at resort courses.

The original poster asked why riders are called lazy. Everyone of
these examples explains it.

>Why MY riding a cart bothers you I can't fathom.

Did you read beyond the first paragraph in my post? I addressed
why it bothers me. I don't think i need to repeat myself.


Dan King
djk...@netcom.com
dk...@nas.nasa.gov

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe it's time to propose that golfers refuse to play courses where
they are forced to ride. Now this idea has absolutely no chance of
gaining ground because a generation of golfers is being raised who
think that walking is the oddity. They'll read in some old golf
magazine that former USGA president Sandy Tatum once called golf by
cart "cart-ball." And they will think, "who was that old fogy
anyway?"
--Lorne Rubenstein
--------------------------------------------------------------------


jw...@lehigh.edu

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May 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/3/96
to

In article <318A56...@aracnet.com>, Paul Laughlin <pla...@aracnet.com> write
s:

>jw...@Lehigh.EDU wrote:
>>
>> In article <4m88rp$c...@alterdial.UU.NET>, efo...@cdc.org (Eric Fowkes) write
s:
>> >
>> >If anyone can explain the antagonism towards carts I would
>> >greatly appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned they are a
>> >godsend in that they allow me to continue playing.
>>
>>
>>
>> As I said earlier, the main antagonism comes because courses are rapidly
>> becomming "cart only". This is espcially true of non-municipal (but still
>> public) courses. By becomming "cart only", the price is jacked up also. Why
>> should I have to pay for a cart if I don't want one? I've heared the argumen
t
>> "play somewhere else" many times, but "cart only" is growing very rapidly, an
d
>> many of the newer, and nicer public courses are taking this route. A good
>> example of this was when my father and I took a trip to Arizona this winter.
>> We stayed at the TPC of Scottsdale, and that course was riding only. I should
>> be able to play the course that I want without riding.
>
>
>In other words you are blaming the carts and the people who use them
>when your real gripe is with management practices. Paul Laughlin in
>Portland, OR plaugh@aracnet
>

Well, yes and no. The management decisions to go "cart only" is what I'm
against, but if the demend for carts wasn't as high as it was, then managers
wouldn't make this decision. What i think is that people should be able to
decide for themselves whether to walk or ride, and it's not right for people
to take that decision away.

Dave Collard

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May 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/4/96
to

In article <4mb66b$h...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jhos...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins) writes:

> Terry Pierce <pie...@admin.son.uab.edu> wrote:
> [...]
>

> >People riding carts waste a LOT of time.
>

> I believe the USGA has the research statistics to back
> up Terry's assertion, at least to the point that a
> foursome walking is quicker on average than a foursome
> riding --don't know about the cart players wasting A
> LOT of time, that would depend on the group.
>

> peril. Golfers increasingly are denied walking rights by

> course owners. It's a revenue issue that's justified by


> the fradulent claim that "carts speed up play."

Last summer I drove back to Virginia to pay golf with my old buddies.
One of my favorite courses there used to be Goose Creek on Route 7.
We arrived and the course had changed... 45 bucks to play and cart required
AND you had to use it. They looked me right in the eye and said it was
necessary to speed up play. I called the starter a liar, but teed off
anyway. 6 hours later, we came up 18 for the very last time I will
ever be there. The course had gone downhill in many other ways -- all
the money has gone into fancy locker rooms, but the tee boxes looked like
sand traps, the greens were awful, and the fairways were beat to hell (carts?).

Why oh why won't they let me walk even if I pay for the cart? Somebody
explain? This course was not designed for carts - no two mile hikes green
to tee. Why?

> We will be playing a new Hurdzan course at the RSG - OPEN
> in September. It'll be fun to evaluate his genius as
> an architect (he's been getting lots of positive PR around
> Ohio and the US recently) based on whether his course is
> walkable.

Well, yes it will. I have not played a Hurdzan course yet. He was
the architect at Cook's Creek south of Columbus too (I think?). Carts
only there. Well, after 4:00 PM weekdays you can walk. They have some _long_
distances green to tee. The course layout and photos look too good
to pass up, however, anybody play there?

Of course, EagleSticks is requiring carts for our group, but I do
not know the general rule.

> Played 9-holes with a veteran golfer last night, in his late
> 60's. His pull-cart (trolley) broke on the first hole. He
> stashed it behind a tree and hoisted his bag and continued
> on. He was a fit as a mountain goat and I suspect he'll be
> golfing many more years. Sure, golf gets laughed at in some

> quarters as a bogus fitness activity. But I think it's

Ah, yes, the reason I responded to your post. Ponder this:

According to a study at Purdue University, carrying your bag and
walking is equivalent fitness-wise as JOGGING SIX MILES - without
the problems of jarring your bones against pavement repeatedly.

When I get home from golfing, I now tell my wife I've been jogging :-)

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-= Thor (David Thor Collard) | Be the tree rooted.
-= th...@alta-oh.com | http://www.alta-oh.com/~thor/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-= What no one seems to comprehend is that there is only one battle,
-= and that we are compelled by our nature and the nature of reality
-= to fight it again and again.
-= Rannulph Junah in "The Legend of Bagger Vance" by Steve Pressfield
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Jim Kehler

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May 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/4/96
to

I am reading something in this discussion that confuses me. I
have never played golf in the U.S., here in Guam we have nine
golf courses but only two allow walking. In my observations,
slow play is caused by slow golfers, regardless of their mode
of transportation. I've been invited to play thru by twosomes
that were walking and by foursomes that were riding carts.
I've offered to let groups play thru my group that were walking
and that were riding carts. Here, like anywhere else, when
the course get 'jammed up' it is caused by some group playing
slow, but I blame that not on their mode of transportation,
but on course managment for not having marshals that are
awake.

What confuses me is this. The 'purists', the 'walkers', or the
'we hate carts' group have presented the argument that carts
cause slow play. They also seem to be timing rounds, i.e.,
'We played 18 holes in 3:20 and were walking'. At the same time
they quote some flowery passages akin to Ray's well know
discussion of smelling the grass and listening to the birds.
If they (the 'purists') feel that golf is not a game but an
out-of-body experience invented decades ago somewhere in Europe,
than *why* are they in such a *hurry* to get it over with ???

When I play golf, I honestly don't care *how* long it takes, as
long as my group is not holding up the players behind us. I
enjoy being outside, I would much rather spend the day at the
golf course than in the office, so I don't start the stopwatch
on the first tee. I don't get upset about slow groups in front
of us either - our usual solution to that problem is to pull
the cart off the path under a coconut tree in the shade, and
let them (and anyone stuck behind us) get a few holes ahead.
If we have to sit in the shade for 30 minutes, what the hey...
What's more fun than sitting under a coconut tree at a golf
course, smelling the grass, looking at the clear blue sky
(we don't have air polution), and watching the Pacific Ocean
go by ? (Can't listen to the birds, we don't have any cuz the
snakes ate them all).

I sometimes play with some guys who are new to Guam and new
to golf. Real *newbies*. I recall my first 18 hole round with
one guy - it took, I think, about 7 hours (including a stop
for lunch at the turn). We never held anyone else up, and I
enjoyed every minute of it, and so did he. Maybe the pace at
which we play golf is a refelection of the pace at which we
are forced to live life........

I did see one course in the U.S. last January, in Florida.
The pro took me on a quick tour, let me hit a few shots here
and there. My first impression was 'Wow. Brown grass and
no cart paths. What a wierd golf course......'

Regards,
Jim

jw...@lehigh.edu

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May 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/4/96
to

In article <4menqp$c...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net>, pacri...@saba.kuentos.guam.net

(Jim Kehler) writes:
>I am reading something in this discussion that confuses me. I
>have never played golf in the U.S., here in Guam we have nine
>golf courses but only two allow walking. In my observations,
>slow play is caused by slow golfers, regardless of their mode
>of transportation. I've been invited to play thru by twosomes

It's true that ultimately the golfer is responsible for slow play, but carts
also aid in slowing up a round. There are numerous reasons for this,
although I always walk when given the choice I have played some "cart only
courses and here's why I say that carts aid in slowing up play. When walking,
you can walk straight at your ball, but when you ride, you can't because of
restrictions as to where you can drive the cart and the fact that there is
another player in the cart whose ball you may need to go to first. This makes
the ball harder to find, especially when it's in the rough because you lose the
line of it. When you walk, you can walk striaght on the line of the path that
you believe that your ball took, therefore making it easier to find.
Undoubtably, much of wasted time on the golf course is spent looking for
balls. There are other ways that carts can slow up play, like when someone
leaves a club on the course and then they have to drive around and ask
everyone behind them if they have it.

>What confuses me is this. The 'purists', the 'walkers', or the
>'we hate carts' group have presented the argument that carts
>cause slow play. They also seem to be timing rounds, i.e.,
>'We played 18 holes in 3:20 and were walking'. At the same time
>they quote some flowery passages akin to Ray's well know
>discussion of smelling the grass and listening to the birds.
>If they (the 'purists') feel that golf is not a game but an
>out-of-body experience invented decades ago somewhere in Europe,
>than *why* are they in such a *hurry* to get it over with ???

Because we have lives. If I could, I'd spend much of my time at the golf
course, but I also have my school work during the time I'm at college, and my
job during the summer. Other people have families to get home to, dinner
reservations to be at, or other places to be. I don't mind spending time
playing golf, but i do mind spending excessive time *waiting* to play golf,
especially when the holdups are unnecessary, like they ususlly are.

>When I play golf, I honestly don't care *how* long it takes, as
>long as my group is not holding up the players behind us. I
>enjoy being outside, I would much rather spend the day at the
>golf course than in the office, so I don't start the stopwatch
>on the first tee. I don't get upset about slow groups in front

Well, that's you, but other people might not be able to spend entire days at
the course.

Scott French

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May 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/4/96
to

I generally walk when ever possible. However in the Texas heat in the summer, carts are almost
the only option. Not having followed this thread completely, I think that carts should stay on
the paths. I've played courses that allow carts everywhere and others that keep carts on the
paths. Without a doubt, the courses requiring carts on the path were in better shape. My club
allows carts everywhere and it shows. They also allow 5 and sixsomes as long as they are all in
carts. What a joke!! At least they still allow walking! I'll take four walkers against a
sixsome any day. The four walkers will take less time than the six cart riders. It's
frustrating to have to wait on a herd of carts on every hole!!!!!

Scott
sco...@i-link.net


Dave Collard

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May 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/4/96
to


In article <djkingDq...@netcom.com> djk...@netcom.com (Dan King) writes:

> gar...@ix.netcom.com (Gary ) writes:
>
> >Why, just because you hate carts, should you deny those who want to
> >use a cart, whether needed or not? To me, that's pretty arrogant.

Why, just because you like carts, should you deny those who want to walk?

New courses are springing up around here - I call, I ask about walking,
they say "have to take a cart - sorry but we have to do it because of slow
play"

Worse than arrogant. Amn-day ullshit-bay. (rot13 to decode :-)

Even when allowed to walk, it is
restricted hours
cart paths everywhere - bouncy bouncy
cart 'tracks' everywhere - grass always bent toward the green
carts making noise zooming up to look for a ball in my fairway as
i prepare to hit.

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to see the point, Gary, but carts are denying
me and many from playing the gemme, not the other way around.

Dave Collard

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May 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/4/96
to

In article <4menqp$c...@lehi.kuentos.guam.net> pacri...@saba.kuentos.guam.net (Jim Kehler) writes:

> From: pacri...@saba.kuentos.guam.net (Jim Kehler)

> I am reading something in this discussion that confuses me. I
> have never played golf in the U.S., here in Guam we have nine

[...]

> What confuses me is this. The 'purists', the 'walkers', or the
> 'we hate carts' group have presented the argument that carts
> cause slow play. They also seem to be timing rounds, i.e.,
> 'We played 18 holes in 3:20 and were walking'. At the same time
> they quote some flowery passages akin to Ray's well know
> discussion of smelling the grass and listening to the birds.
> If they (the 'purists') feel that golf is not a game but an
> out-of-body experience invented decades ago somewhere in Europe,
> than *why* are they in such a *hurry* to get it over with ???

BECAUSE, when talking to courses, that won't let us walk, they lie
to our faces and tell us it is to speed up play, so we feel compelled
to prove that we can keep up with carts so we can play at these courses
that all seem to have 6 hour rounds standard on weekends.

Gary

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May 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/5/96