Rules question: man-made ditch
Magnus
help:
Rgds,
Magnus
A player's ball comes to rest in a ditch that is clearly man-made; it has
been carved out in the ground and its cross-section is square. The ditch is
the natural continuation of a drainpipe, but is not marked as ground under
repair, and the ball is not in contact with the pipe. The player considers
the ditch to be ground under repair and wants to take relief without
penalty. And, as usual when we jerks play, a referee is not "readily
available"...
In case a free drop would be granted, would the ruling be different if the
ditch is not so obviously man-made, i.e. if it seems that the water from the
water flow from the drainpipe has created the ditch in natural way, although
a human being installed the drainpipe?
Colin Wilson
> A player's ball comes to rest in a ditch that is clearly man-made; it has
> been carved out in the ground and its cross-section is square. The ditch is
> the natural continuation of a drainpipe, but is not marked as ground under
> repair, and the ball is not in contact with the pipe. The player considers
> the ditch to be ground under repair and wants to take relief without
> penalty. And, as usual when we jerks play, a referee is not "readily
> available".
> In case a free drop would be granted, would the ruling be different if the
> ditch is not so obviously man-made, i.e. if it seems that the water from the
> water flow from the drainpipe has created the ditch in natural way, although
> a human being installed the drainpipe?
I would say it falls under the definition of a water hazard "... any
sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open
water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar
nature". It's irrelevant whether or not it's man-made ... most ditches
are!
As such you can't get free relief unless it's actually marked GUR. You
can either play the ball as it lies, or take the relief options
specified under Rule 26 Water Hazards, with a penalty of one stroke.
Cheers
Colin Wilson
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Bill Muth
“Ground under repair” is any part of the course so marked by order of the
Committee or so declared by its authorized representative. It includes
material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so
marked.
It seems to me that the ditch is a hole made by a greenkeeper, and the area
would be considered ground under repair. If waterflow had naturally created
the ditch, then I'd say it is not ground under repair, and you'd have play
the ball as it lies (or treat it as an unplayable lie under rule 28.) If I
couldn't tell the difference, I'd play a second ball under rule 3-3 and ask
the pro afterwards whether or not the ditch was man-made or not.
Bill
"Magnus" <ace...@redestb.es> wrote in message
news:8tsjit$290...@SGI3651ef0.iddeo.es...
Howard Gluckman
I don't believe that whether the ditch is man-made or not enters into
it. If the ditch is normally as found, it is a water hazard whether
or not it is so marked. If the ditch is a result of temporary course
construction, then I believe that you can treat it as ground under
repair.
Howard
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Tim F. Ginnett
permanent ditch. My course is putting in new water lines and my ball ended
up in the ditch the other day....I gave myself a free drop and checked later
in the clubhouse. They said ground under repair even though it was not
marked
Bill Muth <mu...@DELETE-THIS.ultranet.com> wrote in message
news:8tsnm0$obi$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
david s-a
"Howard Gluckman" <howard_...@excite.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ndq30toe6fg80dikp...@4ax.com...
> I don't believe that whether the ditch is man-made or not enters into
> it. If the ditch is normally as found, it is a water hazard whether
> or not it is so marked. If the ditch is a result of temporary course
> construction, then I believe that you can treat it as ground under
> repair.
>
You are correct here Howard..however, there is not much point in treating it as
ground under repair in order to obtain a free drop....because it is still a
water hazard, temporary construction or not....so the GUR is irrelevant, unless
play is prohibited!.
Please read Note 1 to Rule 25-1,viz: "...if a ball is in a water hazard
(including a lateral water hazard), the player is not entitled to relief without
penalty from interference by an abnormal ground condition. the player shall play
the ball as it lies (unless prohibited by Local Rule) or proceed under Rule
26-1.
So..I believe you HAVE to proceed under the normal water hazard rule (Rule 26
etc).......the Rules do not contemplate anything else!
david
david s-a
"Colin Wilson" <pub...@kyneton.net.au> wrote in message
news:3A01E15B...@kyneton.net.au...
>
> As such you can't get free relief unless it's actually marked GUR.
No Colin...that is irrelevant...read Note 1 to Rule 25-1! There is no free
relief from GUR in a water hazard....marked or not! The only relevance of marked
GUR in a water hazard is if the Committee wishes to prohibit play from that
area!
david
Eliyahu
david s-a <d...@bluep.com> wrote in message news:3a023...@news.bluep.com...
or doesn't qualify as being a water hazard? If it doesn't, I would presume
that in order to be considered a water hazard, and not either casual water
or ground under repair, the wet stuff would have to be placed there
intentionally as a designated water hazard and not just something that
occurred during repair.
One of our local courses has an irrigation ditch running alongside several
fairways. While man-made, it's also a water hazard because it is placed
there as a part of the course design and not as a temporary thing. Same
thing for the pool by the pump station in mid-course. (Local rules do permit
free relief from the pump station itself.) The city is currently rerouting
part of it through pipes, and the new ditch where the pipes are being buried
is designated ground under repair, even if the water is occasionally
diverted through it while they work on it.
Eliyahu
Colin Wilson
> No Colin...that is irrelevant...read Note 1 to Rule 25-1! There is no free
> relief from GUR in a water hazard....marked or not! The only relevance of marked
> GUR in a water hazard is if the Committee wishes to prohibit play from that
> area!
You're right ... I missed that. :-(
What would happen if the course had dug a drainage ditch that was going
to be filled in later (to, say, install a pipe) and the whole area was
marked GUR i.e. the water hazard was within the GUR, rather than the
other way round?
Joseph N. Hall
or not. Water hazards do not have to be marked. It will be a lateral
hazard in (at least) the areas where it is not possible to drop legally
behind the hazard -- again, regardless of markings.
If the ditch is lined with concrete, it's still a hazard (unless
perhaps it is small enough to be considered a "drain."). In this case
you cannot take relief from the concrete as an immovable obstruction.
You can still move movable obstructions in the hazard though!
-joseph
david s-a
>
> What would happen if the course had dug a drainage ditch that was going
> to be filled in later (to, say, install a pipe) and the whole area was
> marked GUR i.e. the water hazard was within the GUR, rather than the
> other way round?
I would expect that this would be marked GUR (play prohibited)...an alternative
would be to declare the area temporarily out of bounds.
david
david s-a
"Eliyahu" <lro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t04fnfn...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> Does the rule book (I don't have a copy here) have definitions of what does
> or doesn't qualify as being a water hazard?
Yes it does..and it is quite clear and unambiguous..."A water hazard is any sea,
lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course
(whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature.....".
The question is...does your man-made, temporary channel or whatever, fall into
any of the above categories....I believe it does.
david
Bill Muth
temporary (as if more pipe was to be added.)
Bill
"Tim F. Ginnett" <t-ginnett@{NOSPAM}tamu.edu> wrote in message
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