Nicklaus: Black Folks Can't Golf
Chuck Hildebrandt
magazine, in their "Annual Awards" section:
THE AL CAMPANIS AWARD
Golf pro Jack Nicklaus said that black people can't play golf well
because they don't have the right muscles.
I hadn't heard anything about this. Can anybody [ahem] flesh this out
for me so I can understand the context a little better?
chas
--
"Hey, it's the 20th Century — whatever you can do to have a good time,
let's get on with it, so long as it doesn't cause a murder."
Frank Zappa (1981)
HUNT MICHAEL TYLER
>Golf pro Jack Nicklaus said that black people can't play golf well
>because they don't have the right muscles.
>
Jack wasn't being a racist, he was just trying to answer why so few black
people are on tour.
mike
Carlie Hunt
The reasons that there are not more black players on tour has less to do
with physical attributes than with opportunity.
For instance, the PGA's near change of venue for a major event due
to the fact that the hosting club had no black members! If, after 200 years,
the access to facilities aren't the same then how can the ratio of black
to white players on tour be expected to be anywhere near equal?
Carlie
hu...@ecsuc.ctstateu.edu
Greg Tucker-Kellogg
: Chuck Hildebrandt <cha...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Sure. He's not a racist, he just plays one on TV.
--
Gregory Tucker-Kellogg g...@walsh.med.harvard.edu
Department of Biological Chemistry and Molecular Pharmacology
Harvard Medical School, Boston MA 02115
"It is because agents never know completely what they are doing that
what they do has more sense than what they know."
-- Pierre Bourdieu _Logic_of_Practice_
Bill Nels
taken out of was yellow-journalism.
In early 1994, Jack was giving an interview (I understand that it was
while he was making a survey of a new course his firm was building). The
interviewer asked him why more blacks don't play golf. Jack gave him a
few answers, none inflammatory, but the interviewer kept pressing him.
Finally, Jack (poorly) stated that his belief was that blacks gravitated
towards more active sports, such as basketball.
Jack publically apologized at the PGA Championship in August, 1994 for any
offense that he has given.
kel...@proton.chem.yale.edu (Greg Tucker-Kellogg) wrote:
>>Sure. He's not a racist, he just plays one on TV.
You are obviously not aware of the time and effort that Jack has made on
behalf of the Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio. Anyone who has
followed Jack throughout his career knows full well that Jack Nicklaus is
not a racist.
Bill Nelson
Larry Bell
--
I'll go out on a limb and try to put Jack's comment in perspective. I saw a
recap of his interview late last year, Jack was commenting on how a black's
build or physique was better suited to football and other "stength" sports. The
exact words escape me but the spirit of the interview had no racial overtones.
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Dick Jackson
<snip>
>kel...@proton.chem.yale.edu (Greg Tucker-Kellogg) wrote:
>>>Sure. He's not a racist, he just plays one on TV.
>
>You are obviously not aware of the time and effort that Jack has made on
>behalf of the Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio. Anyone who has
>followed Jack throughout his career knows full well that Jack Nicklaus is
>not a racist.
An earlier post quoted Jack as saying that Blacks do not have the
right kind of muscles for golf. For all I know this could be true.
Obviously we would be talking about group averages and not individuals.
I know I don't have the right muscles for golf, and anyway, what *are*
the right muscles? If I knew at least I could make the best of what I
have.
Dick Jackson
Jeff Rogers
>You're a regular Jimmy Carter! :)
>Rob
Maybe it's the peanuts. ;-)
Jeff Rogers
"If you think it's hard to meet new people, try
picking up the wrong golf ball." -- Jack Lemmon
Greg Tucker-Kellogg
: In article <3ebtoi$h...@news.ycc.yale.edu>, kel...@proton.chem.yale.edu (Greg Tucker-Kellogg) writes:
: |> HUNT MICHAEL TYLER (e005...@tuzo.erin) wrote:
: |> : Chuck Hildebrandt <cha...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: |>
: |> : >Golf pro Jack Nicklaus said that black people can't play golf well
: |> : >because they don't have the right muscles.
: |> : >
: |> : Jack wasn't being a racist, he was just trying to answer why so
: |> : few black people are on tour.
: |>
: |> Sure. He's not a racist, he just plays one on TV.
: I'll go out on a limb and try to put Jack's comment in perspective. I
I'll go out on another limb and suggest that Jack didn't know what he
was talking about.
: saw a recap of his interview late last year, Jack was commenting on
: how a black's build or physique was better suited to football and
: other "stength" sports. The exact words escape me but the spirit of
: the interview had no racial overtones.
It certainly had racial overtones, but it may or may not have had
racist overtones. Regardless, Jack's reasoning is not new. He didn't
invent it, Jimmy the Greek didn't invent it. It's one of the truly
standard arguments for different athletic achievements between people
of different races: they must have different musculature. Despite a
century and a half of trying to quantitate those difference, however,
the evidence for them is weak. In contrast, there is ample evidence
of racial discrimination in the history of golf. Jack is surely not
ignorant of that fact. If he had pondered it, he might have provided
a better, truer answer to the question of "why so few black people are
on tour".
--
Robert Gancas {sun43}
>
> Boy, I'm jumping into the active ones lately, eh?
>
> Jeff Rogers
PAUL BRUCKER
>
>An earlier post quoted Jack as saying that Blacks do not have the
>right kind of muscles for golf.
??? Obviously The Golden Bear never saw a Long Dong Silver
flick. :-)!!!!!
pb
Brad Kepley
>invent it, Jimmy the Greek didn't invent it. It's one of the truly
>standard arguments for different athletic achievements between people
>of different races: they must have different musculature. Despite a
>century and a half of trying to quantitate those difference, however,
>the evidence for them is weak.
Are you seriously expecting us to believe that on average, blacks are
not better equipped for sprinting and jumping than whites? Or that they are
not on average more likely to make it to the pros in basketball? Blacks
certainly believe this.
Can you point to a study which (holding time spent practicing) constant
shows that blacks are not over-represented in groups of sucessful boxers
and basketball players considering their relative population?
--
| "The natural progress of things is for government |
| to gain ground and for liberty to yield" |
| Thomas Jefferson |
| Brad Kepley kep...@photon.phys.unca.edu |
John D. Miller
He's neither an anthropologist nor a social scientist, but was asked to play
one on TV. He wasn't qualified to answer the question, nor should it have
ever been asked.
He was asked for an opinion on an area outside his expertise, so don't hold
him responsible for 'being wromg'. His only error was a lack of good judgement
in not passing on answering the question, which was 'loaded' and any answer
or no answer at all would have left him open to derision by some person or
group trying to work its own agenda.
I think the best policy WRT this incident is to put it behind us, and to
certainly not pass critical judgement. Remember the golden rule...
Regards,
Jack
Harold Foley
> Are you seriously expecting us to believe that on average, blacks are
> not better equipped for sprinting and jumping than whites? Or that they are
> not on average more likely to make it to the pros in basketball? Blacks
> certainly believe this.
Yup! Blacks excel in these sports b/c there are no barriers or obstacles
that prevent a man from crossing the finishing line FIRST or scoring that basket.
His performance can be measure objectively. In contrast, one may
so-call fail at something of a more subjective nature if he has been
condition to think that there is no opportunity for him in that area.
Throughout history, oppressor's strength gradually decreases as the oppressee's
strength and tenacity grows stronger. Thus, I attribute the
success of American Blacks in sports, as well as politics, business, etc.,
more to perserverance, sheer determination, and good-old-fashioned
hard work rather than some uneducated fool's genetic explanation(excuse).
Yet, we make no excuses to why NOT one BLACK (BTW, only a handful of women)
is among BUSINESS WEEK'S TOP 1000 EXECUTIVES.
It appears to me that whatever a Black man does is significantly devalued
and deppreciated. It is either labeled as a "natural gift" or a handout.
It is believed that the "gifted" kid from the South Bronx doesn't have to practice
as hard as the "hard-working" kid from Cheyenne, WY to makeit to the NBA,NFL,etc.
This is very unfortunate since the kid from WY may be just as talented as
the kid from S. Bronx; but, the WY kid is conditioned to believe that he
will never make it, while the S. Bronx kid is encouraged to succeed.
It is my hope that we the so-called educated ones stop reinforcing such
demeaning and detrimental stereotypes, and learn to think for ourselves
rather than have others dictate our patterns of thought.
>
> Can you point to a study which (holding time spent practicing) constant
> shows that blacks are not over-represented in groups of sucessful boxers
> and basketball players considering their relative population?
Again, hard work and perseverance.
I welcome any comments!
Peace,
Harold foley.cs.tulane.edu
Harold Foley
Jeff Rogers
>while he was making a survey of a new course his firm was building). The
>interviewer asked him why more blacks don't play golf. Jack gave him a
>few answers, none inflammatory, but the interviewer kept pressing him.
>Finally, Jack (poorly) stated that his belief was that blacks gravitated
>towards more active sports, such as basketball.
Boy, I'm jumping into the active ones lately, eh?
I agree that Jack should have apologized... it was right for him to do so,
because he *MAY* have presented an image that he did not mean to present.
Golf has long been considered an "elitist" sport and has to be more careful
about this than some others.
But my question is this: Can't a man be WRONG without being RACIST? Suppose
Jack was just not thinking properly... he had something else on his mind--
maybe his kid's birthday, or how to hit better one-irons, or one of the 17
courses he was designing. He misspoke... and now he's a racist.
I'm not saying that's what happened. I don't have ANY IDEA what really
happened because I haven't seen the entire interview. I just hope that people
aren't throwing this "racist" label around casually.
Dan Blocka
"easy going" place if we are all going to exist together and survive on this
small planet.
What a great pleasure it is to see a well struck golf ball in flight.
: | "Small is the number of them that see with their |
: | own eyes and feel with their own hearts" |
: | Albert Einstein |
:-) Dan Blocka dbl...@gbcgbrownc.on.ca (-:
John D. Miller
QUOTE:
Are you seriously expecting us to believe that on average, blacks are
not better equipped for sprinting and jumping than whites? Or that they are
not on average more likely to make it to the pros in basketball? Blacks
certainly believe this.
Can you point to a study which (holding time spent practicing) constant
shows that blacks are not over-represented in groups of sucessful boxers
and basketball players considering their relative population?
UNQUOTE:
I have not the answer to the question as I am not qualified. But, To those who
think that 'all men are created equal' I have the following
question: " Explain the sickle cell anemia problem. Is it not a disease
that is almost exclusively striking blacks?" I don't mean to be insensitive
here, but it appears that nature herself has given us the answer to the
question about the tendencies of bodies of different races to develop with
minor differences.
Humbly,
Jack
Chas Douglass
--
I think Jack's comments WERE racist. I think you are assuming too
much from too little evidence. Certainly, "musculature" is only one
possible explanation, and none too likely, in my mind.
Followups sent to soc.culture.african.american.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ " I am not misrepresenting you. I am telling you what you are really +
+ doing even though you may not yet fully realize it." +
+ Bill O'Donnell +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Robert Tremblay
I don't think that anyone has ever read Jack's complete interview
because I don't think that one was ever published. What I recall
reading was that Jack said that there was a lack of opportunity
for blacks. If we assume that the population of the U.S of A. is
80% white, 15% black, and 5% 'other', and then we look at the
distribution of golf club memberships, it is probably 95% white,
4% black, and 1% 'other'. Don't flame me on these numbers, it is
just an approximation made up from my own observations.
Anyway, one of Jack's observations was that if your parents play
golf and you are exposed to it at an early age, then there is a
chance that you, as a child, may give it a try and some may
succeed. If you never heard of the game, the chances of becoming
interested, let alone good, are slim.
So, if you grow up in a neighborhood where all the kids play
baseball, you have a chance of becoming a good baseball player.
Check out the Toronto Blue Jays. It's the Dominican Republic
of the great white north.
Basketball -- All those great players at North Carolina.
Products of the Pinehurst area? No. A lot of them are from
Brooklyn and the Bronx where kids play basketball from
sun-up to sun-down.
So, give Jack a break. He was just stating reality. He's not
a racist.
If you want to turn back the clock 100 years and what-if there
had not ever been any racial exclusions, then have fun.
BTW, nobody has mentionned that the best amateur in the U.S. of A
is a black from a golfing family. Strange, isn't it?
I hope that I (an American, North American, and Canadian) have
not offended anyone in the U.S. of A. by making these comments.
Best Regards,
--
Bob Tremblay | 'The secret of shooting low
Ottawa, Ontario | scores is the ability to turn
My ideas are my own | three shots into two'.
Happily retired, thank you. | ... Bobby Jones
* Unknown *
>From: doug...@termite.networx.com (Chas Douglass)
>Subject: Re: Nicklaus: Black Folks Can't Golf
>Date: 5 Jan 1995 15:25:22 GMT
>Brad Kepley (kep...@photon.phys.unca.edu) wrote:
>: In article <3eff7k$q...@news.ycc.yale.edu> g...@walsh.med.harvard.edu writes:
>: >invent it, Jimmy the Greek didn't invent it. It's one of the truly
>: >standard arguments for different athletic achievements between people
>: >of different races: they must have different musculature. Despite a
>: >century and a half of trying to quantitate those difference, however,
>: >the evidence for them is weak.
>: Are you seriously expecting us to believe that on average, blacks are
>: not better equipped for sprinting and jumping than whites? Or that they are
>: not on average more likely to make it to the pros in basketball? Blacks
>: certainly believe this.
>: Can you point to a study which (holding time spent practicing) constant
>: shows that blacks are not over-represented in groups of sucessful boxers
>: and basketball players considering their relative population?
As a matter of fact I remember looking at some past historical so-called
political satire cartoons from the early 50's. In it as a cartoon of a group
of 5 or 6 well-muscled white boys with a gorilla ( i assumed it was supposed
to represent their cousin or something) in football uniforms. The accompanying
article talked about how blacks weren't suited to play football and
basketball. Well now according to history as I can recall their is hardly (if
ever) 1 football or basketball team were blacks are in the majority which most
whites envy because in their own words......I wanna be like Mike. Hah!!!!!
That's why they're always screaming about the brothers being good role models
for their children. Give me a break!
Mike Marler
I am sorry if I offend anyone with some of the non-golf comments
that follow.
fo...@cs.tulane.edu (Harold Foley) writes:
>Throughout history, oppressor's strength gradually decreases as the oppressee's
>strength and tenacity grows stronger. Thus, I attribute the
>success of American Blacks in sports, as well as politics, business, etc.,
>more to perserverance, sheer determination, and good-old-fashioned
>hard work
I could not agree more.
>rather than some uneducated fool's genetic explanation(excuse).
Actually a fair amount of research has been done on this subject with
the first slant being on what makes a person a "good" distance runner vs
a "good" sprinter with no race being involved. Good sprinters tend to
have better (I believe the term is...) "fast twitch" muscles, ie they
are good at burning oxygen fast for a short period. Typically the
"good" distance runners are much smaller is size and build to the
"good" sprinters.
Now, if you look at the types of physical build in Africa, then you
will many different "typical" physical builds in different locations
in Africa. For extremes compare many of the athletes from Kenya (that
were and definitely still are some of the best distance runners ever)
to some of the athletes from Nigeria (that tend be much larger and
have better "fast twitch" muscles). Feel free to check/think about
all of the tribes in Africa at the time slaves were being brought to
this country. As you might guess, most of the slaves brought to
this country were of superior build and were bred to work in the field.
Many of the magazines dedicated to running have had many articles on
the subject.
Back to your point. Take Calvin Pete as an example. Until he started
to have physical problems (back as I remember), he was successful on tour
and well respected. I watched him beat up on the field of the Atlanta
Golf Classic one afternoon in grand fashion. How did he get to be that
good? Learned how to play himself and practiced hard. (Class act as
well, he has given clinics for inter-city youths here in Atlanta
multiple times).
>Yet, we make no excuses to why NOT one BLACK (BTW, only a handful of women)
>is among BUSINESS WEEK'S TOP 1000 EXECUTIVES.
My god. Is that 1000 and not 100??!
>It appears to me that whatever a Black man does is significantly devalued
>and deppreciated. It is either labeled as a "natural gift" or a handout.
I have had the chance to play with some where between 50-75 different
black players here in Atlanta, and I have met some that were damn good
amateurs. Know how they got to be good golfers? Just like you said and
the same way any player does - practice and hard work.
>It is believed that the "gifted" kid from the South Bronx doesn't have to practice
>as hard as the "hard-working" kid from Cheyenne, WY to makeit to the NBA,NFL,etc.
Lets take the two men that I think will be the next best "players of
color" as an examples. Vijay and Tiger Woods. How did they both get to be
good? Lots of chances to play and practice for most of their life.
(Although I think Tiger Woods just has hell of a lot of raw talent and
he is one of my favorite players. Cannot wait to see the faces of the
boys in Augusta when/if he wins "their" tourney.) Trust me, a long list
of US amateurs will tell you that Tiger has been very oppressive in match
play over the past few years. :-)
>This is very unfortunate since the kid from WY may be just as talented as
>the kid from S. Bronx; but, the WY kid is conditioned to believe that he
>will never make it, while the S. Bronx kid is encouraged to succeed.
I am starting to think about the influence of parents, friends, school,
religion, as well as, society. I get the feeling that you are weighing
society heavily.
>It is my hope that we the so-called educated ones stop reinforcing such
>demeaning and detrimental stereotypes, and learn to think for ourselves
>rather than have others dictate our patterns of thought.
The game of golf needs a lot of help to be brought to more players, but
of course most of us in this group will bitch about the chances for
slower play and other problems from other new players. :-) :-)
>I welcome any comments!
My pleasure. The topic of bringing more players of all types to golf
is worth a lot more discussion.
--
Mike Marler Information Technology, Georgia Tech
mike....@oit.gatech.edu Atlanta, Georgia 30332-0715
Maria L. Evans
>
> The game of golf needs a lot of help to be brought to more players, but
> of course most of us in this group will bitch about the chances for
> slower play and other problems from other new players. :-) :-)
My God, Mike...maybe slow play is genetic? Like maybe too many slow
twitch muscles?
--
Maria L. Evans meva...@bigcat.missouri.edu
"Never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the gallon."
--Casey Stengel, when asked why he didn't fight with the N.Y. sportswriters
Andrew Eastwood
: Brad Kepley writes:
: Humbly,
: Jack
Precisely. Groups of individuals (of any species) which live through
many generations with little or no contact with other groups develop
genetic differences. The Galapagos Finches are the most well known
examples. Indeed, it is separation from others that causes the creation
of new species.
Before modern times, this isolation was caused by the slow rate of travel.
Hence people from Africa look different from those in Europe, who are
different from those in Asia. These are genetic differences. People
of African origin tend to have genetic characteristics different from
those from other regions. Sickle cell anaemia is one example. Looking
at an example where blacks benefit, cystic fibrosis is caused by a genetic
defect found predominantly in whites. (incidentally, mixing of the races
will bring the benefit of greatly reducing the incidences of these two,
and many other, diseases. Both are recessive and hence need to come
from both parents. Diluting the frequency of these genes therefore
greatly reduces the frequency of two defective genes ending up in the
same child.)
Hence it is fact that there are genetic differences. I can`t understand
why people should get so uptight if some of these differences give a
slight advantage to one race or another in certain activities. In
practise, any advantages would be slight (we`re all the same species),
and in any individual case succeeding or failing is going to be 99% down
to hard work etc, as other posters have said.
There is at least one example of a genetic advantage being proven. Many
of the world`s best long distance runners live in countries with high
altitude. These poeple utilise the thin air better than lowlanders. A
study showed that this benefit applied to people whose forbears were
from the mountain dwellers but they themselves had always lived near
sea level.
We know that things such as bone length are under genetic influence (think
of the different arm lengths across ape species). Hence it is entirely
possible for one race to have a slight physical advantage on average when
performing some activities. In the case of golf, however, even if there
are significant differences in musculature, I think the reason for the
lack of black golfers would be nothing to do with it. It is all down to
lack of opportunity caused by it being traditionally a white middle class
game. Because of this, there is no tradition or culture of playing golf.
People do best at games that are traditionally part of their culture. Hence
New Zealand are world powers at rugby, despite their low population. The
USA does not have much of a cricket team.
So stop thinking that anyone who points out a difference between races is
a racist. Differences exist (e.g. colour). The important thing is not to
discriminate against people who are different, that opportunities are
equal etc..
Andrew Eastwood
Jeff Rogers
>I hope that I (an American, North American, and Canadian) have
>not offended anyone in the U.S. of A. by making these comments.
>Best Regards,
>Bob Tremblay
Thanks Bob... this is the reality check I was looking for. I wholeheartedly
agree. When opportunities to practice and learn golf at an EARLY age are
available to a larger percentage of blacks, then there will of course be more
of them on the Tour.
Jeff Rogers
"Just because you planned it
doesn't mean it wasn't lucky."
Billy Whistler
:
: > Are you seriously expecting us to believe that on average, blacks are
: > not better equipped for sprinting and jumping than whites? Or that they are
: > not on average more likely to make it to the pros in basketball? Blacks
: > certainly believe this.
: Yup! Blacks excel in these sports b/c there are no barriers or obstacles
: that prevent a man from crossing the finishing line FIRST or scoring that basket.
: His performance can be measure objectively. In contrast, one may
: so-call fail at something of a more subjective nature if he has been
: condition to think that there is no opportunity for him in that area.
What barriers are there to blacks at swimming pools? Do you realize that
there has never been one black (female or male) on the U.S. swimming team?
Why do you suppose that is?
: Throughout history, oppressor's strength gradually decreases as the oppressee's
: strength and tenacity grows stronger. Thus, I attribute the
: success of American Blacks in sports, as well as politics, business, etc.,
: more to perserverance, sheer determination, and good-old-fashioned
: hard work rather than some uneducated fool's genetic explanation(excuse).
At my school (mostly white) the best 3 football players were black. Two
of the three were the two laziest guys on the team. They never, ever worked
as hard as the rest of the team. How do I know? I trained and practiced
with them everyday for 3 years. I can attribute their success to nothing
but genetics.
I know that this type of annecdotal evidence carries little weight, but
IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
BW
Steve Meredyk
> > >
> > > Can you point to a study which (holding time spent practicing) constant
> > > shows that blacks are not over-represented in groups of sucessful boxers
> > > and basketball players considering their relative population?
> >
> > Again, hard work and perseverance.
> >
> > Harold foley.cs.tulane.edu
I hope this about Tiger Woods or someone (I missed the original post). If not
I apologize for posting it here.
But back when Jimmy the Geek (sic) made his imfamous "genetic" comments, I was
in a Sociology class that studied this issue quite intensively.
Harolds basically hit the nail right on the head. While some athletic skills
are passed down thru heredity (Bobby and Barry Bonds, Terry and Eris Metcalf,
Sandy Sr and Sandy Jr and Roberto Alomar, Gus Bell and Buddy Bell, etc) MOST
of the credit is due to "hard work and perseverence" to develop those skills.
Jeff Rogers
>of the three were the two laziest guys on the team. They never, ever worked
>as hard as the rest of the team. How do I know? I trained and practiced
>with them everyday for 3 years. I can attribute their success to nothing
>but genetics.
At my high school football was dead serious. We were ranked #3 in the nation
by USA Today for a while my senior year. I was one of the very few white
starters on this team... some of our players are still playing in the NFL.
Do I attribute this to genetics? No. I attribute it to the fact that most of
the white people who came out for the team were not mentally tough enough to
be prepared for the work they had to put in. I don't think there was anything
genetic about our team-- but the blacks were ready to put in the work, while
most of the whites quit when they saw how tough things were going to be. I
don't think it was racial, either. It was just that the kids that quit
probably had the opportunity to spend their time doing something that they
enjoyed more...
Sure, some people are born more athletic than others. However, I seriously
doubt that you saw the work these guys put in to being great athletes,
probably while they were kids before you ever met them...
Greg Tucker-Kellogg
: In article <3eff7k$q...@news.ycc.yale.edu> g...@walsh.med.harvard.edu writes:
: >invent it, Jimmy the Greek didn't invent it. It's one of the truly
: >standard arguments for different athletic achievements between people
: >of different races: they must have different musculature. Despite a
: >century and a half of trying to quantitate those difference, however,
: >the evidence for them is weak.
: Are you seriously expecting us to believe that on average, blacks are
: not better equipped for sprinting and jumping than whites?
Yes. Are you seriously expecting anyone to believe that blacks have
not been routinely discriminated against in golf?
: Or that they are
: not on average more likely to make it to the pros in basketball? Blacks
: certainly believe this.
Correction: some blacks believe that.
: Can you point to a study which (holding time spent practicing) constant
: shows that blacks are not over-represented in groups of sucessful boxers
: and basketball players considering their relative population?
Of course blacks in America are overrepresented in certain sports.
Blacks with similar resumes working in similar positions as whites are
paid less, too. Neither fact says anything about genetics. I could go
into more detail about genetics and extend this thread ad infinitum,
but rec.sport.golf is not the place. Take it to alt.fan.rush-
limbaugh, soc.culture.african-american, or alt.politics.white-
supremacy.
Prejudice in golf, and strategies to rid the sport of it, are
appropriate topics, in my view, for r.s.g.
Cheers,
Patsy Price, X1496
>At my school (mostly white) the best 3 football players were black. Two
>of the three were the two laziest guys on the team. They never, ever worked
>as hard as the rest of the team. How do I know? I trained and practiced
>with them everyday for 3 years. I can attribute their success to nothing
>but genetics.
>IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
>work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
Seems rather strong conclusion based on such a small sample. Oh my!
I know I don't have any answers but I would like to look at this question
from another angle. Finish this sentence if you will...
most golfers are <blank>.
IMHO I think most golfers are white males. Seems to me once you can determine
why most golfers are white men you can begin to look at why most golfers are
not asian, female, black or hispanic.
My own ignorant theory is that people who have access to golf tend to have
more money and possess the ability to get the time to play golf. They have
more ready access to the game then other segments of the population.
Does anyone out there have a demographic of the typical golfer?
P. Price
Brad Kepley
>
>Prejudice in golf, and strategies to rid the sport of it, are
>appropriate topics, in my view, for r.s.g.
Unless you intend to discuss this topic with yourself, you are going to
have to deal with people who do believe things such as that there are average
physical differences between the races in a rational way without
banishing them to alt.rush.limbaugh if they dare to question one of your
assertions.
The fact is that 1) I only wanted to know if there was a book or study
that I could read that would give evidence that average physical
differences do not play a significant part in the success of black
athletes in things like sprinting and basketball. 2) I think it's
ridiculous for anyone to believe that the rarity of blacks in golf is
genetically based. 3) I think this topic is not appropriate for this
group so if you can point me to a sports study of the subject it was all
I wanted for my own curiosity. 4) That's all I'm going to say on the
subject because this is a newsgroup that I would suspect is getting
impatient with the whole thing.
mellow mike
Marler) wrote:
:
: Actually a fair amount of research has been done on this subject with
: the first slant being on what makes a person a "good" distance runner vs
: a "good" sprinter with no race being involved. Good sprinters tend to
: have better (I believe the term is...) "fast twitch" muscles, ie they
: are good at burning oxygen fast for a short period. Typically the
: "good" distance runners are much smaller is size and build to the
: "good" sprinters.
anyone who has done cross training or played multiple sports in highschool
knows that weight training and diet have everything to do with which kinds
of muscles you *grow*. since most every pre-pubescent kid is pretty much
the same, speaking in terms of musculature, your training in high school
will pretty much determine what kind of athelete you will be. there is no
crosstraining for, swimming and football for example. you cannot excel at
both, they require radically different types of training and body
strengths. but any 12 year old kid has pretty much an equal chance at
excelling at *one*.
: Now, if you look at the types of physical build in Africa, then you
: will many different "typical" physical builds in different locations
: in Africa. For extremes compare many of the athletes from Kenya (that
: were and definitely still are some of the best distance runners ever)
: to some of the athletes from Nigeria (that tend be much larger and
: have better "fast twitch" muscles). Feel free to check/think about
: all of the tribes in Africa at the time slaves were being brought to
: this country. As you might guess, most of the slaves brought to
: this country were of superior build and were bred to work in the field.
:
yeah right.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
mbo...@panix.com harambee!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
mellow mike
Whistler) wrote:
:
: What barriers are there to blacks at swimming pools? Do you realize that
: there has never been one black (female or male) on the U.S. swimming team?
: Why do you suppose that is?
:
as an aau age group diver and state championship participant *in
california* i can tell you exactly how friendly the best aau swim teams
are to blacks. NOT. things have changed for the better in the past 15
years since i competed - the knife is out two inches. and my young cousin
was recruited at the college level for water polo (i wonder why they gave
him the nickname 'the dark shark'), but talk about an inbred sport! aau
swimming and diving is a white bread old money country club sport. i know.
i've been there. and believe me, diving is more exclusive than swimming.
mellow mike
: At my school (mostly white) the best 3 football players were black. Two
: of the three were the two laziest guys on the team. They never, ever worked
: as hard as the rest of the team. How do I know? I trained and practiced
: with them everyday for 3 years. I can attribute their success to nothing
: but genetics.
:
: I know that this type of annecdotal evidence carries little weight, but
: IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
: work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
:
do you think they'll make all-city, all-state? or do you just attend a
sorry school?
Maria L. Evans
>
> Does anyone out there have a demographic of the typical golfer?
White male wearing clothes composed of material found in toxic waste dumps
in colors never found in nature. Dweeby little short socklets and loose
fit shorts to expose knobby knees, shiny shins and missing leg hair on
outside of legs (sure sign of early peripheral vascular disease) optional.
Thank God I play with golfers that are weird instead of THOSE guys. ;-)
Michael Reagan
That's true. Not too many whites are out stealing watermellons or hubcaps!
SORRY!!! I JUST COULD NOT RESIST
Roger Brown
: At my school (mostly white) the best 3 football players were black. Two
: of the three were the two laziest guys on the team. They never, ever worked
: as hard as the rest of the team. How do I know? I trained and practiced
: with them everyday for 3 years. I can attribute their success to nothing
: but genetics.
And from this painful incident in your life, which you have repeatedly
told us about on the Net, you have extrapolated your entire theory of
race. Three guys were better than you at football, so it must be a racial
thing, and a genetic thing, rather than accept your own lack of ability.
Three guys out of hundreds of millions of black people.
: IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
: work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
No, it doesn't, Billy. you don't know anything. We all know that.
: BW
Jon Locker
Billy Whistler <whis...@netcom.com> wrote:
>What barriers are there to blacks at swimming pools? Do you realize that
>there has never been one black (female or male) on the U.S. swimming team?
>Why do you suppose that is?
...and there's never been a white Globetrotter, so I guess white folks
can't play basketball...
yikes.
>At my school (mostly white) the best 3 football players were black. Two
>of the three were the two laziest guys on the team. They never, ever worked
>as hard as the rest of the team. How do I know? I trained and practiced
>with them everyday for 3 years. I can attribute their success to nothing
>but genetics.
hoo boy. And I bet you studied side-by-side with asians, and they never
studies, and they all got A's, and it was all because they were genetically
smarter rather than the fact that you are dumb.
>I know that this type of annecdotal evidence carries little weight, but
>IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
>work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
What about cultural and class differences? That is, are middle class
blacks superior athletes to middle class whites? How about middle class vs
lower class blacks...?
This whole thread is stupid and pointless. This is the same crap folks
used to say about the Jews' dominance of basketball in the 20s and 30s.
(ie, check out anything about one of the best teams of that era, the
"Cleveland Rosenblooms")
--
Jon Locker | "It is one Thing, to show a Man that he is in an Error,
U of Illinois | and another, to put him in possession of Truth."
j-lo...@uiuc.edu | - John Locke
=============================================================================
George585
I just play golf and enjoy it. I'll not get caught up in this insanity.
BYE!
Bob Ray
> At my school (mostly white) the best 3 football players were black. Two
> of the three were the two laziest guys on the team. They never, ever worked
> as hard as the rest of the team. How do I know? I trained and practiced
> with them everyday for 3 years. I can attribute their success to nothing
> but genetics.
>
> I know that this type of annecdotal evidence carries little weight, but
Well no, actually it carries no weight at all.
Tim Smith
>Yup! Blacks excel in these sports b/c there are no barriers or obstacles
>that prevent a man from crossing the finishing line FIRST or scoring that basket.
>His performance can be measure objectively. In contrast, one may
>so-call fail at something of a more subjective nature if he has been
>condition to think that there is no opportunity for him in that area.
Golf performance can't be measured objectively!?
--Tim Smith
Billy Whistler
: Billy Whistler (whis...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : At my school (mostly white) the best 3 football players were black. Two
: : of the three were the two laziest guys on the team. They never, ever worked
: : as hard as the rest of the team. How do I know? I trained and practiced
: : with them everyday for 3 years. I can attribute their success to nothing
: : but genetics.
: And from this painful incident in your life, which you have repeatedly
: told us about on the Net, you have extrapolated your entire theory of
: race. Three guys were better than you at football, so it must be a racial
: thing, and a genetic thing, rather than accept your own lack of ability.
: Three guys out of hundreds of millions of black people.
They were better than EVERYONE on the team, asshole. And like I said
I realize that this is just anecdotal.
: : IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
: : work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
: No, it doesn't, Billy. you don't know anything. We all know that.
Can't you offer anything to back up your ideas? Or is this another
one of your 'discredit the author without adding anything substantial'
techniques?
BW
Billy Whistler
: In article <whistler...@netcom.com>,
: Billy Whistler <whis...@netcom.com> wrote:
: >What barriers are there to blacks at swimming pools? Do you realize that
: >there has never been one black (female or male) on the U.S. swimming team?
: >Why do you suppose that is?
: ...and there's never been a white Globetrotter, so I guess white folks
: can't play basketball...
Cute. Prove me wrong and name one great black swimmer. I can name plenty
of great white basketball players.
: >I know that this type of annecdotal evidence carries little weight, but
: >IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
: >work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
: What about cultural and class differences? That is, are middle class
: blacks superior athletes to middle class whites?
Of course they are. Or did you think every great black athlete in
America was born in a cardboard shack in Mississippi?
BW
Donald Macleod
> Cute. Prove me wrong and name one great black swimmer. I can name plenty
> of great white basketball players.
Will do. Anthony Nesty of Surinam is an Olympic gold medal winning
swimmer. However he is the only black ever to win a swimming medal.
A scientific study is called for.
Donald Macleod
Cambridge, UK
Danny Geyser
At least on the professional level (men) -- Most golfers are white because
they are simply better golfers than those non-whites who care to try.
Likewise, most basketball players are black because they are simply better
basketball players than those non-blacks who care to try.
What's the big deal?
I will agree that golf is a more expensive sport (er... hobby -- don't
flame me because I called it a sport) which may play a role in this.
But that is simply a fact that is not going to change.
--
"Love those bikini-waxed greens"
-Danny [all opinions expressed are my own]
Michael Zimmers
Once again, I can't resist wading into a politically-charged issue,
especially after reading some of the silly postings that have emerged.
Can we all consider:
1. One big reason that there aren't more blacks on the PGA tour is that,
on a percentage basis, there aren't that many blacks in the countries
that are populating the tour. I don't have the exact numbers, but in the
US, I think the black population is less than 12%, and I'd guess it's even
smaller in Australia, England, Germany, Sweden, Spain, etc.
2. From my observations in other sports (and let me be absolutely clear
that I'm not advancing this as science), there's little doubt in my mind
that blacks differ from whites in some physical areas. Is it just
coincidence that the NBA has a hugely disproportional population of black
players? What about cornerbacks in the NFL (or even college for that
matter)? What about sprinters? What about heavyweight prizefighters?
C'mon -- something's different. I don't know what; maybe they have a
higher incidence of fast-twitch muscle fiber or something. But they
are undeniably physically better than whites in some athletic areas.
They certainly are different in other ways - whites don't get sickle-cell
anemia, for example.
3. Given that blacks excel over whites in certain athletic skills, is it
unreasonable to assume that just maybe, there might be some athletic
skills in which whites excel over blacks? This question is purely
rhetorical; I have no idea what skills those might be. I'm just trying
to make the case that such skills just might exist. And maybe some of
these skills are golf-relevant.
4. While many people consider the lack of blacks in golf to be more of a
"social opportunity" issue (which I don't entirely dispute), this seems
to be becoming less and less of a viable explanation. In the past 30
years or so, public golf has become the dominant venue for the game.
Green fees are quite affordable (free for members of a high-school team),
and a used set of clubs can be had for the price of some high-top
basketball shoes.
5. And maybe the absence of blacks on the Tour isn't due to any of the
reasons stated above or elsewhere. The Tour represents a pretty small
group of players, possibly too small from which to draw any statistically
significant conclusions.
Anyway, I'm not trying to grind an axe here -- this is just food for
thought. I hope we can tone down the flame war on this thread before
it really gets out of hand.
a
b
c
--
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Michael Zimmers | Voice: 408 996 1965 |
| SoftHelp -- Suppliers to Software Developers | Data: 408 996 1974 |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Robert Gancas {sun43}
(I'm whispering so read softly and slowly.)
This is certainly a highly charged topic. The thread has discussed
what Nicklaus' comments were, although nobody had actual quotes. There
has been lots of talk about why there aren't more black golfers. And
there has been discussion about genetic differences between the races with
regard to athletic ability.
I don't know what Jack said. The guy is a professional golfer, not a
Ph.d in anthropology, or sociology, for that matter. When somebody
actually posts what he *said*, then we can all debate what he *meant*.
I think we can all agree that he is a pretty good golfer.
There *are* genetic differences between the races. There is alot better
evidence of these differences than what I or anybody else observed
while playing interscholastic or intramural sports. It's fact. I will not
speak to who is the better athelete or who is smarter. I leave that to
people who get paid to do such things. (Anyway, when some expert
stands up and says that handsome, witty white guys make lousy software
engineers, I'll probably just keep doing my thing.)
As for why there are not more black professional golfers...
*this is where things get interesting*. Humans are a complex *social*
species. Think about that for a minute. We are the most complex social
species on the planet. The social factors combined with genetic
factors make for a real puzzle. This makes it *extremely* difficult and
*subjective* (even for experts) to nail down *exactly* why there are not
more black professional golfers. More likely it is a combination of many
factors which many of you have already mentioned.
I would like to discuss just one factor, though. That is heart. Drive,
desire, ambition, perfectionism. I'll just call it heart. Heart can
go along way in contributing to an individual's success in spite of any
obstacle. I admire the individual who's heart has taken him to the top
of his profession. I marvel at the individual who really does his
thing so effortlessly and by grace of nature. Both of these types of
people are out there as well as all kinds of folks in between. Haven't
you ever looked at someone as thought he could be really great if he
only tried? No guts, no glory? Don't most of us try to take those gifts
that come naturally to us and then work like hell to make the most of them?
While we're talking about Jack... How about a guy that is weak with
his wedge winning 20 majors, runner up in 19 majors. Wow! Ask the
guys who played against him. Raw physical talent, sure. Heart, you
bet.
Rob
Roger Brown
: : And from this painful incident in your life, which you have repeatedly
: : told us about on the Net, you have extrapolated your entire theory of
: : race. Three guys were better than you at football, so it must be a racial
: : thing, and a genetic thing, rather than accept your own lack of ability.
: : Three guys out of hundreds of millions of black people.
: They were better than EVERYONE on the team, asshole. And like I said
: I realize that this is just anecdotal.
Then why do you keep repeating it as if it were meaningful?
: : : IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
: : : work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
Your anecdote carries more weight? One example of three people constitutes
proof?
: : No, it doesn't, Billy. you don't know anything. We all know that.
: Can't you offer anything to back up your ideas? Or is this another
: one of your 'discredit the author without adding anything substantial'
: techniques?
: BW
There is no point treating you seriously; you don't read, you don't
learn, you are too lazy to research. There is nothing to discredit.
- Roger
Morris Workman
|> Michael Zimmers (mzim...@netcom.com) wrote:
|>
|> : 3. Given that blacks excel over whites in certain athletic skills, is it
|> : unreasonable to assume that just maybe, there might be some athletic
|> : skills in which whites excel over blacks? This question is purely
|> : rhetorical; I have no idea what skills those might be. I'm just trying
|> : to make the case that such skills just might exist. And maybe some of
|> : these skills are golf-relevant.
|>
|>
|> : 4. While many people consider the lack of blacks in golf to be more of a
|> : "social opportunity" issue (which I don't entirely dispute), this seems
|> : to be becoming less and less of a viable explanation. In the past 30
|> : years or so, public golf has become the dominant venue for the game.
|> : Green fees are quite affordable (free for members of a high-school team),
|> : and a used set of clubs can be had for the price of some high-top
|> : basketball shoes.
|>
|> what you are exposed to as you grow up. Consider the possibility that
|> a majority fo black youths live in the inner cities. How much exposure
|> do they have to a golf course? versus a basketball court? versus an ice
|> hockey rink?
|>
|> I got started playing golf because my friends in Junior High/High School
|> played the game. It wasn't the only game, some played basketball too,
|> but I got exposed to golf at an early age.
|>
|> The opportunity exists to play the game for all people, but it's the exposure
|> to the sport and the readily available venues in which to play the sport
|> that should determine which a youth will participate in.
|>
|> Good Putting!
|> Mark
|> --
|> Mark Koenig, Parallel-R-Us, Technical Marketing, Convex Computer Corp.
I'm glad someone finally put it in a nutshell. All of those other comments
are BULL. Just like Mark said, "What about Ice Hockey?". It's funny that
many (if not most) of the best hockey players are from Canada. Does that
mean that Canadian atheletes (black or white) are genetically better to
play hockey than Americans. I don't think so. Exposure to the sport is
greater than here in the US.
Damn near every school has a football, basketball, and baseball team. Not
all of them have a SWIMMING, or golf team. Hell, speaking of that analogy
on black swimmers (a little while back). Why don't you say that California
swimmers are genetically better athelets that the rest of the US, hell,
the world even. Let's get real elitest!
Jack's comment was not a cool one. If you think so, fine; that's your
opinion and now you know mine. It doesn't detract from his golfing
accomplishments and what he has meant to golf. But, I now look at him
in a different light. (Not so brightly lit.)
Well, I'm going to sign off now cause I'm really starting to get pissed.
Way to go Mark, maybe some people will read your remarks and open their
mind and absorb it before they open their keyboard and comment.
===========================================
**** ***
* * * *
* * * * *
* ** ** *
* * * * *
* * * *
*** ****ardo. (wor...@mdsol1.mdc.com)
===========================================
John W. Griffin
>Please pay attention to your attributions, folks... I never said any of this.
Um, Jeff, I've seen you complain several times about attributions - and
yet I've never seen you attribute your replies *at all*. I guess no
attribution is better than incorrect attribution. :-)
--
John W. Griffin | Associate Engineer | Allison Engine Company
ts...@agt.gmeds.com | Turbine Aerodynamics | Indianapolis, Indiana
Scott McClellan
: :-) An earlier post quoted Jack as saying that Blacks do not have the
: :-) right kind of muscles for golf...
: 1. Jack himself is build like an athlet - NOT !! ;-)
: 2. Vijay Singh is a lousy golfer - NOT !!! ;-)
Vijay Singh is black - NOT !!!
(dark complexion - YES. of African decent - NO.)
Billy Whistler
: In message <mzimmersD...@netcom.com> - mzim...@netcom.com (Michael Zimme
: rs) writes:
: >2. From my observations in other sports (and let me be absolutely clear
: >that I'm not advancing this as science), there's little doubt in my mind
: >that blacks differ from whites in some physical areas. Is it just
: >coincidence that the NBA has a hugely disproportional population of black
: >players?
: Not a coincidence at all. Drive through a largely black neighborhood
: sometime, and notice all those young men jumping up and down on the
: basketball courts. Drive through a largely white neighborhood, and notice
: that there are, percentagewise, fewer young white men doing the same.
Percentagewise? Sounds like you might concede that actual-numbers-wise,
more whites play basketball than blacks. So why is the NBA 85% black?
Seems that if your theory held up, there would still be more whites than
blacks in the NBA. BTW, you probably don't see many white men jumping
around on courts in white areas when you drive thru because they are
playing in gyms. That's where most of my friends and I play.
: In the US, sports has always been the way that members of underprivileged
: minorities have gotten ahead. There used to be plethora of Jewish and Irish
: and Italian boxers -- Slapsy Maxie Rosenbloom and Kid Kaplan come to mind.
: But as other opportunities have opened up for Jews and Irish and Italians,
: many of those young men who would have been interested in boxing or
: basketball or football instead have gone into other, more rewarding
: occupations.
Please don't forget that blacks were excluded from sports oppurtunities
in those days. If they had not been, they would have dominated like they
do today.
BW
Billy Whistler
: : : : IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
: : : : work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
: Your anecdote carries more weight? One example of three people constitutes
: proof?
Who said anything about proof?
I don't need proof because no one has ever proved the ridiculous assertation
that blacks have more desire than whites in sports. I said it before: You
can't prove me wrong because if you could, you would. Somehow, I get the
feeling that you don't know very much about athletics and sports.
BW
Billy Whistler
: In article <3erlo9$1...@news.parc.xerox.com>, mac...@EuroPARC.Xerox.COM (Donald Macleod) writes:
: Oh well, there goes another theory!
One abberation is not enough to shoot down this theory. Hell, the guy is
probably Dutch.
BW
Joel Rosenberg
s) writes:
>In article <3euo57$r...@blackice.winternet.com>,
>Joel Rosenberg <jo...@winternet.com> wrote:
>
>>In message <mzimmersD...@netcom.com> - mzim...@netcom.com (Michael Zimme>In the US, sports has always been the way that members of underprivileged
>>and Italian boxers -- Slapsy Maxie Rosenbloom and Kid Kaplan come to mind.
>>But as other opportunities have opened up for Jews and Irish and Italians,
>>many of those young men who would have been interested in boxing or
>>basketball or football instead have gone into other, more rewarding
>>occupations.
>
>player lately?
Sure. It's huge, for those few thousand who make it to the top. But a
busted ankle, anywhere along the line, can stop the progress of even a
terrifically talented, devoted athlete.
Now, check out the average salary of, say, a computer programmer, and think
about for a moment what sort of problem it would take to deny a talented
would-be programmer a shot at a good career....
Stuart Siu
: In article <1995Jan11.0...@zeus.franklin.edu>,
: Rick Nelson <nel...@zeus.franklin.edu> wrote:
: >I came in late on this one.. Did Nicklaus actually make some remark
: >along these lines? My retort would be what about Tiger Whatshisname
: >the greatest golf prodigy since Nicklaus? I think it does boil down
: FWIW, Tiger Woods said in an interview this year that he doesn't consider
: himself black. He has a rather interesting heritage alloy that I don't
: remember completely, but I think he's only 1/4 black.
Yes, he considers himself Asian. I believe his mother is Thai.
Stuart
Michael Zimmers
Mark Koenig <koe...@convex.com> wrote:
>Michael Zimmers (mzim...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: 3. Given that blacks excel over whites in certain athletic skills, is it
>: unreasonable to assume that just maybe, there might be some athletic
>: skills in which whites excel over blacks? This question is purely
>: rhetorical; I have no idea what skills those might be. I'm just trying
>: to make the case that such skills just might exist. And maybe some of
>: these skills are golf-relevant.
>What about Ice Hockey?
I don't know much about hockey these days, but several years ago, the NHL
was populated predominantly with Canadians -- it's "their" game. And I
think Canada has an even smaller population of blacks than the USA.
>I don't think it has anything to do with "muscles" or "genetics". It is
>what you are exposed to as you grow up. Consider the possibility that
>a majority fo black youths live in the inner cities. How much exposure
>do they have to a golf course? versus a basketball court? versus an ice
>hockey rink?
I've heard sociologists say that this is largely a myth, but I have no
hard data, so I won't dispute it. This is a possible explanation. My
point was that it's simply within the realm of possibility that, on
average, whites may have some genetic superiority for the game. I don't
personally believe this to be true, nor do I particularly care beyond
the point of idle curiosity. But people shouldn't be stamped racist
for thinking that this just might be true.
Michael Zimmers
>I came in late on this one.. Did Nicklaus actually make some remark
>along these lines? My retort would be what about Tiger Whatshisname
>the greatest golf prodigy since Nicklaus? I think it does boil down
FWIW, Tiger Woods said in an interview this year that he doesn't consider
himself black. He has a rather interesting heritage alloy that I don't
remember completely, but I think he's only 1/4 black.
Michael Zimmers
>In message <mzimmersD...@netcom.com> - mzim...@netcom.com (Michael Zimme
>rs) writes:
>>1. One big reason that there aren't more blacks on the PGA tour is that,
>>on a percentage basis, there aren't that many blacks in the countries
>>that are populating the tour. I don't have the exact numbers, but in the
>>US, I think the black population is less than 12%, and I'd guess it's even
>>smaller in Australia, England, Germany, Sweden, Spain, etc.
>Fine. But 12% of the Americans on the PGA tour aren't black. I suspect it's
>less than 1%.
I think it's a bit higher, and as I said, the 12% figure is also high, but
even using those numbers, the PGA is closer to proportional representation
than the NBA, the NFL and (I believe) MLB. And in those sports, I'm hard
pressed to believe it's not somewhat genetically-driven, especially
considering the virtual absence of whites in certain positions (like
cornerback).
>Not a coincidence at all. Drive through a largely black neighborhood
>sometime, and notice all those young men jumping up and down on the
>basketball courts. Drive through a largely white neighborhood, and notice
>that there are, percentagewise, fewer young white men doing the same.
But the higher ratio of urban blacks isn't nearly large enough to account
for the disparity in representation in the NBA etc. And contrary to the
stereotype, affordable golf *is* available to people in urban areas.
Whether those urban residents elect to afford themselves of the opportunity
is another story, and may well be the crux of the issue.
>In the US, sports has always been the way that members of underprivileged
>minorities have gotten ahead. There used to be plethora of Jewish and Irish
>and Italian boxers -- Slapsy Maxie Rosenbloom and Kid Kaplan come to mind.
>But as other opportunities have opened up for Jews and Irish and Italians,
>many of those young men who would have been interested in boxing or
>basketball or football instead have gone into other, more rewarding
>occupations.
More rewarding? You checked out the average salary of an NBA or NFL
player lately? Let's face it -- virtually no one in this country is
denied the *chance* to climb the ladder into professional sports, and
given what salaries have been for the past 20 years, I imagine that few
young men wouldn't *want* to climb that ladder. But a hugely
disproportionate amount of blacks seem to be succeeding. I'm not willing
to attribute that to social environments.
>>3. Given that blacks excel over whites in certain athletic skills, is it
>>unreasonable to assume that just maybe, there might be some athletic
>>skills in which whites excel over blacks?
>Given that, of course not. But that's not, by any means, a settled issue.
Bingo! My point exactly. Peace.
Danny Geyser
>
> With the ongoing de-elitization of golf we will have . . .
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you kidding? I don't know about the rest of the world, but here
in Southern California, green fees are rising anually at an alarming
rate.
Don Page
>
> : 2. Vijay Singh is a lousy golfer - NOT !!! ;-)
>
> Vijay Singh is black - NOT !!!
>
> (dark complexion - YES. of African decent - NO.)
I read in a golf magazine that he considers himself "Black". I also think that a person would know or should know what race or variety of races that they are.
--
dp...@earthlink.net I've done the Math.
Gary Bourque
writes:
>
>In article <1995Jan11.0...@zeus.franklin.edu>,
>Rick Nelson <nel...@zeus.franklin.edu> wrote:
>
>>I came in late on this one.. Did Nicklaus actually make some remark
>>along these lines? My retort would be what about Tiger Whatshisname
>>the greatest golf prodigy since Nicklaus? I think it does boil down
>
>FWIW, Tiger Woods said in an interview this year that he doesn't consider
>himself black. He has a rather interesting heritage alloy that I don't
>remember completely, but I think he's only 1/4 black.
>
He's only 1/16 black. He is 1/2 Thai (from his mother) and gets a hodge
podge of enthicities from his dad (black, Chinese, white, American
Indian,...). I read this in the LA Times last summer.
Neverless, and right or wrong, Tiger will go down in sports history as a
black golfer, and a great one too I hope.
--
*------------------------*----------------------------------------------*
* | A little government and a little luck are
* Gary Bourque | necessary in life, but only a fool trusts
* gbou...@ix.netcom.com | either of them.
* | - P.J. O'Rourke
*------------------------*----------------------------------------------*
Tommy t3 Thornton
This includes basketball, football, and track and field. Consequently whites
tend to excel in sports with high start-up costs: Hockey, Tennis (for
lessons), Golf, and Watersports (Swimming, NOT golden showers!). To say
there is a significant genetic advantage of one race other another for a
certain sport is just ridiculous. I'm black and I grew up in a predominately
white neighborhood with more swimming pools than basketball courts. I have a
2 foot vertical leap but, I can't make a jump shot to save my life and I'm
much more comfortable with a 3 wood than a pigskin. Its all what you're used
to.
-t3
---
Tommy T. Thornton email: thor...@hobbes.kzoo.edu
Computer Services Department phone: (616) 337-7237
Kalamazoo College fax: (616) 337-7251
Branko Collin
whis...@netcom.com (Billy Whistler) writes:
>
:Morris Workman (wor...@mdsol1.mdc.com) wrote:
:: In article <3erlo9$1...@news.parc.xerox.com>, mac...@EuroPARC.Xerox.COM (Donald Macleod) writes:
:: |> swimmer. However he is the only black ever to win a swimming medal.
:: |> A scientific study is called for.
:: |>
:: |> Donald Macleod
:: |> Cambridge, UK
:
:: Oh well, there goes another theory!
:
:One abberation is not enough to shoot down this theory. Hell, the guy is
:probably Dutch.
No, he is Surinam.
.......................................................................
. Branko Collin . 'WHOP .
. . whisssssCRAC! .
. // u24...@vm.uci.kun.nl . THUMPA THUMPA' .
. \X/ bco...@mpi.nl (work) . Meccano - Gilette .
.......................................................................
Padmanabhan Premkumar
Yeah? And I consider myself an eskimo!!
Scott is absolutely right. Vijay Singh has a dark complexion but is not of
African descent (unless you go all the way back to Lucy!!).
Vijay has a Dravidian origin from the Indian subcontinent (most Fijians are).
Prem
brendan james griffin
>: 1. Jack himself is build like an athlet - NOT !! ;-)
>: 2. Vijay Singh is a lousy golfer - NOT !!! ;-)
>Vijay Singh is black - NOT !!!
Well, it's pretty obvious that Nicklaus is not racially biased. I recall
he had a black caddy with him at Turnberry 1977. Just him giving his
opinion, although I hav'nt seen the article.
Brendan.
* Unknown *
>Subject: Re: Nicklaus: Black Folks Can't Golf
>Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 17:08:54 GMT
>BW
He knows a helava lot about racism and ingnorance thou.
Charles L Isbell
Not according to my Surinamer friend. he also says that another
Surinamer is coming up through the ranks for the next Olymnpics.
BTW, these threads are utterly inane... they cover nothing new or
novel. Why are you people so obsessed with this stuff? Are you
*that* bored?
--
Peace.
"I sit on a man's back, choking him, and making him carry me, and
yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish
to ease his lot by any means possible, except getting off his back."
-- Leo Tolstoy
-\--/-
Don't just adopt opinions | \/ | Some of you are homeboys
develop them. | /\ | but only I am The Homeboy From hell
-/--\-
Roger Brown
: : : : : IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
: : : : : work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
: : Your anecdote carries more weight? One example of three people constitutes
: : proof?
: Who said anything about proof?
You said it "carries much more". Much more what, we don't know.
: I don't need proof
Classic Whistlerism. you don't need proof, science, education, knowledge,
etc.
: because no one has ever proved the ridiculous assertation
: that blacks have more desire than whites in sports.
I never made this assertion, and don't believe it.
I said it before: You
: can't prove me wrong because if you could, you would. Somehow, I get the
: feeling that you don't know very much about athletics and sports.
: BW
No, people prove you wrong all the time. You just don't get it.
Jeff Rogers
>yet I've never seen you attribute your replies *at all*. I guess no
>attribution is better than incorrect attribution. :-)
Sorry... I guess I could start... now, who said this? ;-)
Jeff Rogers
"Just because you planned it
doesn't mean it wasn't lucky."
Billy Whistler
Roger Brown (bro...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Billy Whistler (whis...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : Roger Brown (bro...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : : Billy Whistler (whis...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : : : : : IMO it carries much more than this "blacks excel in sports because they
: : : : : : work harder and have more desire than whites" bullshit.
: : : Your anecdote carries more weight? One example of three people constitutes
: : : proof?
: : Who said anything about proof?
: You said it "carries much more". Much more what, we don't know.
: : I don't need proof
: Classic Whistlerism. you don't need proof, science, education, knowledge,
: etc.
Classic Rogerism. If Whistler says the sky is blue, he needs to back it
up with scientific evidence. On the other hand, Roger Brown doesn't need
proof because he never states a position except that Whistler is wrong.
: : because no one has ever proved the ridiculous assertation
: : that blacks have more desire than whites in sports.
: I never made this assertion, and don't believe it.
I could have sworn this was your theory. If not, what is your theory
on why blacks dominate the speed and power sports?
: I said it before: You
: : can't prove me wrong because if you could, you would. Somehow, I get the
: : feeling that you don't know very much about athletics and sports.
: : BW
: No, people prove you wrong all the time. You just don't get it.
No one has EVER proved me wrong on the fact that blacks and whites
differ in genetic make-up and in athletic ability.
BW
B.Attah
Donald Macleod <mac...@EuroPARC.Xerox.COM> wrote:
>In article <whistlerD...@netcom.com>, whis...@netcom.com (Billy Whistler) writes:
>> Cute. Prove me wrong and name one great black swimmer. I can name plenty
>> of great white basketball players.
>
>Will do. Anthony Nesty of Surinam is an Olympic gold medal winning
>swimmer. However he is the only black ever to win a swimming medal.
>A scientific study is called for.
>
>Donald Macleod
>Cambridge, UK
If we are arguing over whether there is an innate, genetic, _race_ based
difference in aptitude for various sports between black and white people,
we must accept (for the purposes of argument, at least) a definition of
race that is based on genetic relationships, and not on political or social
definitions of race.
In the light of this, it is worth asking: are the people of Surinam any
more closely related to the black people of West Africa and their descendants
in the Western world than they are to white people?
To illustrate a way in wich this question is relevant: East Africans are
traditionally good at long and middle distance running, while West Africans
are good at sprinting. Both groups are called 'black', but they are very
different, and not at all closely related. The difference in their sporting
performance has been variously attributed to climate, genes and culture.
Anyway, although it is _interesting_ to ask whether there are genetic
differences between races in their sporting abilities, it can hardly be
said to be _important_. Why, then, is this thread so very heated?
Bruce Attah.
(ain't got no signature, don't plan to get one)
Da Wize 1
Tell that to Jim Dent and Tiger Woods.
And in a few years, Women's tennis will have a new look.
And yes NHL Goalie Grant Fuhr is black.
Now all we need is a few skiers, car racers and polo players.
Marco
--
Some call me crazy, but God just calls me.
Morris Workman
|> who says blacks can't golf?
|>
|> Tell that to Jim Dent and Tiger Woods.
Oh BTW, Calvin Peete and Jim Thorpe.
Da Wize 1
>
> Oh BTW, Calvin Peete and Jim Thorpe.
>
I was going to say Calvin. I should have said it anyway.
I thought Jim Thorpe was American Indian. I could be wrong.