Clubmaker question--shafting beads?
Mike Dalecki
it. Everything is go for launch, except that the shaft is somewhat
loose in the hosel. I wish I had some shafting beads to take up the
slack, but I don't.
I'd really like to get it glued up so I can try it out tomorrow or on
the weekend at worst. So that would preclude my ordering shafting beads
from a component supplier.
Is there any substitute for shafting beads that one might find readily
available in a hardware store or at home?
Mike
---------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dalecki
I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean.
Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course.
RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
david s-a
"Mike Dalecki" <mi...@dalecki.net> wrote in message
news:3A944BD9...@dalecki.net...
>
> Is there any substitute for shafting beads that one might find readily
> available in a hardware store or at home?
>
Talcum powder makes a good 'thickener' for epoxy glues...try that.
david
DJD
David,
Are the grains/flakes of talcum powder large enough to act as shims to
center the shaft in the hosel, the way shafting beads do?
--
Dan Driscoll
Member USGA, NCGA
RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html
RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
RichG
--
regards, RichG
rich...@yahoo.comDoNotSpamMe
.
Mike Dalecki <mi...@dalecki.net> wrote in message
news:3A944BD9...@dalecki.net...
david s-a
"DJD" <NoSpa...@BiteMe.com> wrote in message
news:3A93E9FF...@BiteMe.com...
> David,
>
> Are the grains/flakes of talcum powder large enough to act as shims to
> center the shaft in the hosel, the way shafting beads do?
>
> --
No...nothing of a liquid, gaseous or colloidal nature will do that...shafting
beads will only do that if they are positioned mechanically to centre the shaft.
(like rotating the shaft in the hosel so that the gluey mix will distribute
itself equally around it). Because of the liquid nature of the medium there is
equal pressure all round the shaft regardless of assymetric gap thickness...so
there is no assymetric force available to cause a centering effect! Any
centering of the shaft must be by mechanical positioning. Use small toothpick
points to locate the shaft centrally in the hosel while the epoxy mix is
curing...then just break them off!
cheers
david
mdR
The shaft just displaces them the same as the epoxy. Waste of money...
Mark
Mike Dalecki wrote in message <3A944BD9...@dalecki.net>...
Mike Dalecki
mdR wrote:
>
> IMO--I think shafting beads don't really do what they claim. How can they?
> The shaft just displaces them the same as the epoxy. Waste of money...
>
> Mark
Certainly they're not perfect, although I'd think they'd be better than
nothing if I can get the shaft oriented correctly to begin with.
I've thought about using shims (the kind that looks like a spring) but I
don't know if that'll work. I'm not sure I can get them "fine" enough.
It's occurred to me to use electrical wire--the kind where it's braided
inside the insulation. Very fine wire braided together. Might be fine
enough that I could wrap it around the hosel prior to installation.
Other than that, I'm at a loss. Someone suggested using toothpicks to
center it, which would be ok if I didn't have to use a ferrule. And
while I can slide the ferrule up the shaft to make room, I'm not at all
confident I can get it slid back down into place after the epoxy cures.
There's got to be a good answer to this somewhere. I posted the
question to Shoptalk, we'll see what develops.
Mike
> Mike Dalecki wrote in message <3A944BD9...@dalecki.net>...
> >I'm replacing the shaft in my 3-wood after pulling it and spine-aligning
> >it. Everything is go for launch, except that the shaft is somewhat
> >loose in the hosel. I wish I had some shafting beads to take up the
> >slack, but I don't.
> >
> >I'd really like to get it glued up so I can try it out tomorrow or on
> >the weekend at worst. So that would preclude my ordering shafting beads
> >from a component supplier.
> >
> >Is there any substitute for shafting beads that one might find readily
> >available in a hardware store or at home?
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------
> >Mike Dalecki
> >I do not patronize spammers! Help keep RSG clean.
> >Expect the same etiquette from me on RSG as on the golf course.
> >RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
> >---------------------------------------------------------------
--
Mike Dalecki
The toothpick suggestion is interesting, except that I have to use a
ferrule. While I'm sure I can slide it up the shaft to make room for me
to use the toothpicks, I'm not sure I can get it slid back down
properly.
I really wonder if I need shims for this. I've seen the kind that look
like springs, but I don't know if the wire is fine enough for this
application. I've thought about using the fine wire from braided
electrical wire, wrapping it around the shaft or inserting it
longitudinally into the hosel at installation. Don't know yet whether
that might work.
I posted the question to Shoptalk, if I get an answer I'll post it here.
Mike
--
T.M. Harover
where the spine is on your own or did you go by the little
manufacturer's stamp on the shaft?
TM
Jef Goh
The beads are mixed with the epoxy, part applied in the hosel and part on
the shaft, when you put the shaft into the hosel while rotating, the beads
serves as a self centering object. FYI, the beads are real small, if you
have never seen them order a container from GOlfsmith and test it to see if
you need to mechanically place them.
Jef
"david s-a" <hai...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:bU1l6.722$v5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Jef Goh
hosel and there are thousands of them in just a small pinch, I've never
measure their size, I do not have equipment to measure things that are that
small. They are so small, you would not be able to see a single piece by
itself.
Rgds
Jef
"mdR" <mdr...@mr.net> wrote in message
news:tc8l6.6$O72...@news7.onvoy.net...
Mike Dalecki
>
> How did you do the spine alignment? Do you have a method to determine
> where the spine is on your own or did you go by the little
> manufacturer's stamp on the shaft?
I'll tell you what I did, but realize I'm new at this and certainly no
expert. So what follows is my understanding of it. It turns out this
is long, and I'm writing it in part to try to get down what I understand
about it. If anyone with more experience/knowledge of spining can offer
additions or corrections, please do.
You can buy a spine finder for reasonable price (I got mine from Colin
Dick, cost $49 shipping included). Or make your own if you can get
parts. It's a piece of PVC pipe (looks like 1 1/2", but I haven't
measured it) that has bearings glued into each end. The bearings have
about a 3/4" hole in the middle, which means you can pass a shaft
through there butt first. The pipe has a piece of plywood screwed onto
it so you can fix the spine finder in a vise (see pic here of older
version: http://members.home.net/cgdick/).
You place the spine finder in the vise so that it is horizontal or
oriented upward a bit (so the shaft points up a bit from horizontal).
Insert the shaft butt-first as per the pic.
You then take a third bearing with a chain attached so you can pull on
it, place it over the tip, and put 3-5 pounds of downward pressure on
the shaft. Colin uses a chain so you can hook it on a hook for a
permanent installation, but I just hold it with my hand.
Since the only places the shaft contacts the device(s) are bearings, you
can turn the shaft between thumb and forefinger, even with pressure on
it. When you do that, you discover all sorts of interesting things,
including where the shaft is resistant to turning, where it tends to
settle, and so on. The place of maxiumum resistance to turning is the
spine (Colin, I think, refers to it as feeling like a "speed bump.").
A perfect shaft will not show any evidence of spine or anything else.
As you turn it it will just rotate without any increase or decrease of
resistance. But only very expensive shafts are likely to be like that,
and I've heard of some expensive ones that have definite spines.
I compared the cheapo Firebolt graphite shafts I bought to do some live
spine-effect testing with the Apache shaft I'm re-orienting in my
3-wood. The Firebolts are amazingly assymetric, a very clear major
spine (S1), a minor spine (S2) about 180 degrees away from S1, and a
couple of neutral bending points about 90 degrees offline from the
spines.
The Apache is more expensive (I paid something like $24 for it). Much
less evidence of spine than the Firebolts. Further, there seems only to
be a major spine with only a hint of a minor one. It's less apparent,
but that's only a matter of degree.
In theory, you're supposed to orient the spine at either the 9:00 or
3:00 positions relative to the clubface (the top of the clubhead, when
viewed from the golfer's perspective at address, is 12:00). So 9:00
points at target, 3:00 points away.
But there's another aspect that has to be dealt with, called FLO--Flat
Line Oscillation. Part of the issue with spining is that a shaft with
the spine grossly off-axis will, when bent or loaded during the
downswing, not return the clubhead on plane as the shaft unloads. A
club with a clubhead that returns perfectly to the original position
when flexed and unflexed will return it to the exact spot in the plane
it started. A club not so perfect will have the head offline to the
original plane by some amount. Enough to move a sweetspot hit off to
one side of the clubface; in some cases, according to reports I've read,
enough to make a club slice almost everything. Or push. Or do a lot of
things that you'd not want. So says the theory. It's what I'm testing.
So the trick is to get this FLO in the same plane as the shaft moving
through impact. You detect FLO by fixing the butt end of the shaft in a
vise (rubber-jawed, of course), so that it's horizontal. Then you
"twang" it by pulling the tip back about 2 or 3 inches and releasing it,
watching the how the shaft moves back and forth. If the shaft is FLO,
then it will move back and forth perfectly horizontally or flat (hence
the term "flat-line oscillation"). If not, it will oscillate in a
diagonal or oval fashion.
What you do is keep rotating the shaft in the vise until you achieve
FLO. The FLO will usually be either in the same plane as the major
spine, or 90 degrees away from it (my Apache shaft has FLO 90 degrees
from the spine). The Firebolts are FLO in the spine plane. But the FLO
isn't exactly on spine plane or 90 degrees from it--they can be a bit
off by a few degrees in either direction. I suspect this is partly
because my measurement of spine isn't perfect (it must be off by a few
degrees given the inherent inaccuracy of using my fingers to detect it),
as well as the imperfections of the shaft are not perfectly oriented
radially down the shaft (they may be more like a spiral, in other
words).
Regardless, once you have discovered FLO, then that's the plane you
place at 9:00/3:00. The shaft ends up having the logo pointing any
which way, because the logo isn't usually painted on in anything other
than a random fashion (some expensive shafts are supposed to be aligned
and have the logo indicate that, or have a stamp on it, as you asked
above).
On my Apache shaft, the logo was originally face up (toward the
golfer). Now, after orienting the shaft, it's almost 90 degrees off
vertical.
Of course, I haven't been able to test it yet because I need to figure
out how to fix the shaft in the hosel w/o cocking it.
A few other comments:
First, I found that I couldn't demonstrate FLO with my speed clamp which
has generous rubber jaws. I just couldn't clamp it tight enough (it's
great for regripping, just not this application). But the new clamp I
got from Dynacraft does it very well.
Second, the effect in steel shafts is less than graphite. They're more
uniform, although there still is a spine. I have a TT dynalite steel
shaft I tested; it's got a very pronounced spine.
Third, and this is why I think that spining may well make a difference
in fitting clubs, is that the frequency of the shaft--the
stiffness!--depends on its orientation. The spine is, of course,
stiffer. This is very apparent in some graphite shafts, less so in
steel. It appears to be worth half a flex in graphites, maybe in some
cases as much as a whole flex. Imagine a set with the shaft stiffness
varying by club in a random fashion; would it affect your swing and
results? I can't see how it wouldn't, but nothing beats testing to be
sure.
Fourth, if you are still with me after all the above, you might be
wondering what the point of the spine finder is if I'm FLO-ing the shaft
anyway.
Knowing where the spine really is when you orient with FLO is supposed
to help various elements of the game. This from memory: I think that
if you orient the spine side at 9:00 you get somewhat better accuracy at
the cost of some distance, at 3:00 you get somewhat better distance at
the cost of some accuracy. But that's if it's oriented FLO. If FLO is
90 degrees offline like my Apache is, then the spine at 12:00 should
resist toe-droop of the clubhead as it is brought through the hitting
zone, 6:00 should encourage toe-droop. (This is some pretty subtle
club-fitting stuff at this point, beyond my concern right now).
This implies anyone can more-or-less do what I'm doing simply by
determining the FLO of the shaft which you can do by trial and error. I
can pick it out almost immediately by orienting the shaft for twanging
in the spine plane or 90 degrees off that plane, but doing it w/o
spining would be simply trial and error. It would take maybe 2 minutes
to do, longer if you have to fool with a vise clamp a lot.
So. You now know almost everything *I think I know* about Spining
shafts. :)
Does Spining matter? Some say not (Joseph Hall is emphatic in this
position). Others I've read say definitely, and they aren't trying to
get my money, just explaining how to do it so others can build clubs
that way. If there is an effect, how much clearly depends on the
quality of the shaft, whether its steel or graphite, and a few other
variables.
That's why I'm building some identical clubs, one perfectly aligned, the
others with varying degrees of misalignment. I'll swing them, and I'll
have others swing them in blind tests (and that's harder to do than it
sounds at first blush, meaning I'll probably stand behind them and hand
them the clubs in a random fashion, recording impact on the clubface
with impact labels, recording ballflight characteristics, and so on, so
they don't know from one ball to the next which they're hitting).
So we'll see. Maybe Joseph is right, it's all a bunch of hoo-hah.
Andy Stritof
afraid the amount of epoxy displaced would significantly weaken the
hosel to shaft bond.
Shafting beads are like powdered glass (don't breath them). I don't
think you can simulate them with something as large as a hunk of
toothpick or wire.
Overall, I don't know how necessary they are to assembly, but I've used
them all the time because a little jar costs about $5 and based on my
current consumption rate, it'll last me until I can't golf anymore.
I'd be interested on the consensus from shoptalk of beads vs. no beads.
Andy
Mike Dalecki <mi...@dalecki.net> wrote:
: Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.
: The toothpick suggestion is interesting, except that I have to use a
: ferrule. While I'm sure I can slide it up the shaft to make room for me
: to use the toothpicks, I'm not sure I can get it slid back down
: properly.
: I really wonder if I need shims for this. I've seen the kind that look
: like springs, but I don't know if the wire is fine enough for this
: application. I've thought about using the fine wire from braided
: electrical wire, wrapping it around the shaft or inserting it
: longitudinally into the hosel at installation. Don't know yet whether
: that might work.
--
Andy Stritof | Experience is what you have right after
str...@xnet.com | you needed it most.
Mike Dalecki
>
> I would definitley _not_ use a toothpick or even fine wire. I'd be
> afraid the amount of epoxy displaced would significantly weaken the
> hosel to shaft bond.
>
> Shafting beads are like powdered glass (don't breath them). I don't
> think you can simulate them with something as large as a hunk of
> toothpick or wire.
>
> Overall, I don't know how necessary they are to assembly, but I've used
> them all the time because a little jar costs about $5 and based on my
> current consumption rate, it'll last me until I can't golf anymore.
>
> I'd be interested on the consensus from shoptalk of beads vs. no beads.
>
> Andy
I tried posting to shoptalk several times, and it won't take the post.
I don't know why, I'm listed as a "member," but it won't go. I sent an
email to yahoo support asking them why.
I had an email from someone suggesting I use drywall tape, which he
argues will absorb the epoxy. I thought I had some around to try it
with, but I can't find it (if you saw my garage you'd know why).
I ordered some shafting beads today from Golfworks but they won't show
up until Tuesday at the earliest, probably (priority mail). I'm just
gritting my teeth wishing I could get it glued up and try it out, but I
know that in the long run I'm better off to do it right.
In the meantime, I guess I'll just work on the spining demonstration
clubs.
Joseph N. Hall
you could use reflective glass beads (used when painting highway markings)
instead.
-joseph
mdR
about a few thousandths of an inch clearance. I really don't think it's
necessary, what difference could it make? The epoxy itself will space the
shaft a couple of thousandths via film properties. Putting anything foreign
in the epoxy mix simply _must_ weaken the bond as it would setup a failure
point(s) within the adhesive.
Mike Dalecki wrote in message <3A951250...@dalecki.net>...
Mike Dalecki
mdR wrote:
>
> I just don't think centering the shaft is that critical. We're only talking
> about a few thousandths of an inch clearance. I really don't think it's
> necessary, what difference could it make? The epoxy itself will space the
> shaft a couple of thousandths via film properties. Putting anything foreign
> in the epoxy mix simply _must_ weaken the bond as it would setup a failure
> point(s) within the adhesive.
Certainly it's a matter of degree as to how much difference it could
make. In this case, though, the shaft is a significantly smaller
diameter than the hosel. I've tried to figure out how many degrees of
cock there is potentially, and as near as I can tell, it's 1-2 degrees.
That sounds like enough to significantly change lie angle or loft. This
particular 3-wood has a loft of 14.5 degrees, and I don't want it to be
any less. I already hit it with a low trajectory, no lower!
I can actually position the shaft so that the ferrule is square to the
hosel, and so that for all intents and purposes it's square; the problem
is that I don't think I can ensure it will stay that way during cure.
This is the only shaft I've ever had with this much play in the hosel.
Thus the shafting beads or similar method.
dsc
> This implies anyone can more-or-less do what I'm doing simply by
> determining the FLO of the shaft which you can do by trial and error. I
> can pick it out almost immediately by orienting the shaft for twanging
> in the spine plane or 90 degrees off that plane, but doing it w/o
> spining would be simply trial and error. It would take maybe 2 minutes
> to do, longer if you have to fool with a vise clamp a lot.
Mike... why is there anything magical about horizontal. why can't you simply
clamp the shaft and start twanging it from various positions until the flat
line matches your twang?
dsc
Mike Dalecki
Perhaps I could have said it better, but what I thought I said is what I
think you're saying here. :)
When I first saw this effect, I had a similar reaction to yours above:
If I eventually need to have the shaft in FLO anyway, and the only way I
can do that is to twang, what's the point of spining in the first place?
What I was trying to say above was that you can find FLO just by
twanging, turning the shaft fractionally, and twanging again. What you
don't get doing it this way is a hint of where that is from the spining
operation--and just a couple of degrees rotation from "perfect" can
create an oscillation--nor the ability to align the spine at either 6:00
or 12:00 depending on whether you want to affect toe-droop or not. (And
I don't know the degree to which affecting toe droop would be important,
it's an effect, how large I don't know. Some say it's important.).
So what I was trying to say is that you can figure out FLO on your own
w/o spining, although it will likely take longer. But once it's flat,
you're there. This suggested to me that even though someone lacks a
spine finder, as long as they can clamp the shaft tightly, they can do
virtually what I'm doing. I don't think you're getting all the
potential positive effects of using a spine finder (assuming there is
one, that is :), but I suspect you would get 80-90 percent of it.
And get it w/o the cost of buying a spine finder.
DKCRNA
place of shafting beads.
Ejohn
says...
> I have heard that #5 potters beads (available at hobby stores) can be used in
> place of shafting beads.
>
How about the glass beads used for beadblasting, they are cheap.