Nothing to Lose
ritpg
golf instruction/practice facility (Elite Indoor Golf Center). I've
been very impressed so far; I've had one lesson and 3 practice
sessions. There are 10 practice tees each with its own video camera
and PC which you get to use any time. They also have every swing
trainer device known to man some of which they do not recommend. But
at least you get to try it out before you buy it.
My thought was that I would have an opportunity to loosen up for the
golf season and maybe fix my pathetic swing. Understand that I have
the most God-awful loop and it's been there since I took up the game
50 years ago. Needless to say, the pro has his work cut out for him.
The last pro advised me to not even try to lose the loop at this point
and suggested I, instead, learn to work with it. This new pro says he
can cure it. I'll believe it when I see it. To give you some
background, I average 90 on a 132 slope course, my avg. drive is 210
and I hit a 7-iron 145 yards. In my younger days, I could drive the
ball 250 (with woods) and I was actually on the golf team averaging
high 70s. I guess I am a living example of why it's so important to
gets the basics of the golf swing down early in life because bad
swings only get worse with age.
Working with the video has allowed me to see how ridiculously off-
plane my swing is. I can see that at one point near the top of the
backswing, I'm in reasonably goood position (the pro agrees). But
then my right shoulder moves forward and my left shoulder moves back
causing the loop. Looking at the swing, it seems to be totally
counterintuitive to me. I seem to be swinging in a way that loses all
the leverage than my body can produce. Why would I move my arms away
from my body to a position of less leverage? And I also seem to be
casting a bit. I can't imagine how far I could hit the ball if I
could use my body correctly. But that is not my goal. Accuracy and
consistency are.
When I actually try to imitate Furyk's swing (the opposite loop from
mine), amazingly, I am still looping the same way, just a little
less. In other words, the loop is in the opposite direction from how
it feels. During the first lesson the pro wanted me to focus on
keeping my left biscep against my chest for a longer period of the
downswing. He had me holding my left arm against my chest with my
right hand and swinging with one arm. I never did get this move
down.
Interestingly, last year there was a period when I was striking the
ball as well as I ever have. My divots were nice and flat instead of
the (toe lower than heel) flaps I tend to create. And I could
actually shape the shot right to left (I tend to be left to right as
you would expect), My distance was very slightly increased but my
accuracy and consistency were much improved. Oh how I wanted to
capture that swing and put it in a bottle. But, as always happens, it
lasted only a few weeks and I was back to my usual swing. And I'm
quite certain, it was the irresistable urge to swing harder that did
it in. I did not get to video it at the time. I had a couple of
conscious swing thoughts: toe up abruptly on the backswing and
aggressive (steep) angle of attack on the downswing. It kind of felt
like what Kenny Perry's two-part swing looks like to me. Another
thought that was in the back of my mind was that I was not forcing the
downswing. I.E. I did not sense the tension in my shoulders that I
tend to feel when I'm trying to swing hard. Was I looping? I have no
idea.
So that brief experience tells me that there is an effective (if not
pretty) swing in me somewhere. I just have to figure out how to get
it back. And I sure hope this pro can help me.
As always, all comments/ideas are welcome.
john
You should get a couple of 12" rulers. Fasten one to the end of the other
to form a T shape. The vertical part is the golfer's backbone, the
horizontal part is the golfers shoulders.
Now hold the assembly out in front of you as if the ruler assembly was a
golfer. The vertical part has two angles, it slopes towards the ball, ie
the golfer is canted forward slightly, from the hip joints. The vertical
ruler is also canted slightly away from the target. Otherwise, the back is
pretty straight.
Now the ruler assembly is going to go through the turning motion to mimic a
golf swing. Keep an eye on the levelness of the top part of the T.
You have to rotate the vertical portion without changing either of the
angles that the vertical piece had in the "address" position.
If you do it right you should see that the *right* shoulder has to move in a
*downward* direction to get to the impact position. In other words, the
shoulders have to rotate around the spine. Because your spine is tilted
forwards and away from the target (you have to preserve that spine angle
until the ball is gone), the right shoulder has to move *downwards* towards
the ball on the downswing. Significantly downwards.
Play with the two rulers until you understand the motion, then practise
without a golf club until you can do what the T shaped ruler assembly can
do. You can use both hands to hold a golf club across the front of your
shoulders (touching each shoulder joint). Watch yourself in a mirror if
you can.
I hope that helps - if you can move your shoulders like the ruler assembly
your instructor will be very pleased.
ritpg
> ritpgwrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for the feedback, John. I think I have a good mental image of
what the swing is supposed to look like. I've been around golfers
with classic swings most of my life. I'm great at helping others pick
up the game. In fact my next door neighbor is my most recent pupil
and he's taking lessons from the same pro who said whoever had worked
with him had taught him well. He decided to take lessons because my
recommendation to shorten his swing was not what he wanted to hear.
He's very muscle bound and just gets way off plane trying to take a
full swing. The pro told him to shorten his swing too.
My problem seems to be an inability to correlate that look with what
it is supposed to feel like when I'm hitting a ball. I look great
when there is no ball. But put a ball in front of me and back comes
the loop. It's uncanny. Again, thanks for the feedback. I made an
appointment today for my next lesson. I told the pro that he needs to
pull out all the tops because I'm not getting it so far. I'll let you
know how I make out after the next lesson.
WW
> I recently signed up for a series of 6 lessons with a new local indoor
> golf instruction/practice facility (Elite Indoor Golf Center). I've
> been very impressed so far; I've had one lesson and 3 practice
> sessions.
Lessons are a no brainer if you want to improve. The problem w/ MOST
people is they are unwilling to accept change and revert back to old
habits. My swing was VERY ugly before I took lessons. Took every bit 2
months for me to see any improvement. I used to say the golf swing was
uncomfortable. I feel good about it now & it's not unnatural feeling
like it was. Last yr I went to hell w/ my woods & didn't have the $
for a pro & it got ugly. As soon as the course opens I'm going back to
my pro. Shooting 90 is very respectable, better than most.
ritpg
Thanks, WW. I'm looking forward to the discomfort. I just want to
know what it takes to feel it.
Annika1980
When I first started playing golf I had a pronounced slice, not unlike
most beginners. Obviously, this was caused by an out-to-in swing with
an open clubface.
A golf teacher I knew sat down behind me and drank a beer while I hit
a few shots on the Brickyard. He told me to take a 7-iron and just
take little bitty swings to hit the ball only 30 yards or so, and to
make sure to feel the toe of the club pass the heel as I hit the shot.
I wanted to hit full shots, but I figured I'd humor the guy.
This rotation of the clubhead was counter to what I was used to, but I
could do it pretty easily on a little chip shot. After I hit a few of
those, I was instructed to hit the ball 50 yards and then 75 yards
with the same feeling. This too, I managed to accomplish.
Before the guy popped open his second beer, I was hitting nice little
145 yard draws with my 7-iron. It was an epiphany of sorts for me.
No longer was I slicing across the ball with an open face. Now I was
making a slightly in-to-out swing (or at least that was the
sensation).
So if you wanna cure an old ill, start small and work your way up.
FEEL the toe passing the heel. It is hard to slice when that happens.
If the heel wins the race to the ball, look right.
ritpg
Great comments, Annika. I must admit I'm a bit unique. Having played
with this crummy loop for 50 years, I have tried every drill known to
man. I think if you saw me swing, you'd prbably laugh. I can swing
on a good plane as long as I don't try to hit the balll more than a
few feet. With the video, I can see that I actually loop on chip
shots - you heard right. The more I write about my swing, the more
I'm inclined to think it's totally psychological. Maybe it's a shrink
that I need. Hey! My daughter, whom I've introduced to golf, is a
practicing psychiatrist. Wouldn't it be ironic if she could cure me!!!
Annika1980
> Great comments, Annika. I must admit I'm a bit unique. Having played
> with this crummy loop for 50 years, I have tried every drill known to
> man. I think if you saw me swing, you'd prbably laugh. I can swing
> on a good plane as long as I don't try to hit the balll more than a
> few feet. With the video, I can see that I actually loop on chip
> shots - you heard right. The more I write about my swing, the more
> I'm inclined to think it's totally psychological. Maybe it's a shrink
> that I need. Hey! My daughter, whom I've introduced to golf, is a
> practicing psychiatrist. Wouldn't it be ironic if she could cure me!!!
You wouldn't be the first person to become "ball-bound."
I've known a lot of people who can make a beautiful swing until you
put a ball down in front of them.
GaGolf...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
A psychiatrist, the right one, could do a whole lot more good, than
most golf instructors, or swing aids. Relaxation technique, positive
imagery, etc would contribute immensely to ones game, however,
implementing these concepts is a whole lot harder than it sounds.
I have noticed a pattern. When I run from my car to the first tee, I
play well. When I hit balls for an hour before, my play is
inconsistant. Because at the practice tee, a myriad of swing
thoughts can set in. And with swing thoughts come tension and doubt
and anxiety, all which will be debilitating at the first tee.
One thing I havelearned is that you keep practicing at the practice
tee, and if you are playing a serious game, you use the practice tee
just to warmup and stretch your muscles.
ritpg
Well, I had my 2nd lesson last night. And I think it went well. I've
been playing golf too long to ever think that my problems are over. I
still have a lot of work to do.
I had asked the pro to pull out all the stops for my next lesson. And
he did. I think he had already concluded that I was going to require
some extreme measures.
He brought out this contraption the likes of which I had never seen
before. I will never be able to describe it to you. It was made out
of PVC piping and it's intent was to force me to swing on a specific
plane - backswing and follow-through. After nearly breakling the
thing a couple of times and forcing the pro to keep resetting it, I
finally was able to swing without touching it with the club. It felt
very strange to me. I hit several shots with the thing in place and
then the pro removed it to see if I could still swing on the desired
plane. It looked in the video like I was.
Then the pro stepped frame by frame through the video with me and
pointed out how my right shoulder was remaining absolutely stationery
for the first part of my downswing. I would say that my hands were at
the 9 o'clock position before my right shoulder moved. Isn't this the
definition of casting? I knew I was casting somewhat but my primary
concern was the loop in my swing. Then maginc happened. When I
concentrated on moving my right shoulder toward the ball as the first
action of my downswing, I immediately knew that I had hit on
something. The result was that I was keeping my left bicep against my
chest for a longer period of time as the pro had wanted me to do
during the first lesson. Just telling me to keep my bicep against my
chest hadn't done it for me. Focusing on moving my right shoulder
first did. This reminded me of how different people need to hear the
ideal mechanics expressed in different terms. There was a time when I
was trying to help a friend out with his swing. Ironically, I could
see that he was casting. The first thing I told him was to try to
pinch the ball between the ground and the club face. No effect. Then
I told him to imagine a horizontal rope between him and the target
about 5 feet away. I told him to try to hit all iron shots under the
rope. Bingo! He accomplished what I wanted him to. But I had to
express what he needed to do mechanically in different terms.
Now if I can keep this swing thought engrained in my subconscious,
that will certainly be a step in the right direction. What was
particularly encouraging to me was that the swing felt it did the last
time I was striking the ball well (for me). At that time I was
relying strictly on muscle memory rather than a specific swing
thought. Now I know that muscle memory is preferrable to swing
thoughts - that's what groving a swing is about. But for someone who
plays only once a week plus one practice session, let's face it.
Tha'ts not enough to grove a swing.
I also have to guard against falling into my usual trap when I
discover something that works: thinking that more is better. If
moving my shoulder first (and delaying my arm action) works, then
maybe delaying my arm action even more might be better. It may. But
then it may not. To me the ideal golf swing is an exercise in
homestasis. There is a point where everything is happening to the
right degree at the right time. I believe the margin for error is
smaller for the golf swing than it is for any other sport - including
tennis (for my tennis bigots out there). But then isn't that what
makes the game so fascinating? It's like tuning an old Alpha. You
never seem to reach a point of diminishing returns.
I'll try to update this thread as I proceed through my series of 6
lessons so you'll all know how this tuns out. My league starts in a
month and I am so looking forward to the reaction when I "crush" one
down the middle without the loop I have come to be known for. I love
this game.
ritpg
> On Mar 9, 8:41 pm, WW <dirt...@msn.com> wrote:
>
Well, I've had a couple of lessons and a few practice sessions since
my last post. I seem to be making some progress but the lesson
learned is that there is no short cut. When I really concentrate, I
can reduce my loop to about 20% of what it was. I continue to be able
to swing well when there is no ball in front of me - so it's
definitely psychological. I have to focus on swinging without power
to come close to what the pro wants me to do. Interestingly, I don't
seem to be losing any club head speed. That's if for now. I'll just
keep on swinging and see what happens when I start my league in a fe
weeks.
ritpg
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, you won't believe this one. For the past couple of weeks I have
been going thru the usual frustrating exercise in trying to find the
magic answer to fixing my loop. A couple of times, I thought I had
hit on something only to find out that it didn't seem to work the next
time out. I could tell my pro was getting more and more frustrated
and I didn't blame him. Last night I asked him if he was watching the
Hank Haney/Charles Barkley show on the Golf Channel. He had watched a
couple of segments. Then I asked him who he thought had the greatest
challenge, Hank Haney or him. Without any hesitation, with a dagger
in my heart, he said he had the greatest challenge without question.
Then he brought out another swing aid which I proceeded to beat to
hell trying to get rid of this %^$*@ loop. Then we started to talk
about what might be going on - in my head. We discussed how there are
two types of golfers, hitters and swingers and that I am definitely a
hitter. When that ball is in front of me, my goal is to attack it.
I'm not one of these golfers who swing and the ball happens to get in
the way. That seemed to spark an idea in my pro. The next thing he
told me to do is to address the ball looking at the reflection of the
ball in a full size mirror placed to my right and well away from my
swing arc. He then wanted me to hit the ball not taking my eyes off
the reflection. My next door neighbor was practicing at the tee next
to mine and he confessed later driving home that when he heard the pro
tell me to do this he said to himself, oh boy, this is going to be
interesting. Fully expecting me to whiff, shank, etc. he was ready to
head for cover. Then an amazing thing happened. I actually hit the
ball. And I not only hit the ball, but I flushed it AND there was no
loop. I knew something good had happened by the ear-to-ear grin on
the face of the pro. Now we all know what an incredibly vexing game
golf can be and we've all heard the stories about the seemingly
counterintuitive ways pros can get hackers like myself to hit the
ball, but this is a new one on me. I continued to hit balls repeating
my first success a little better than 50% of the time. The times I
didn't get the same results were when I hit the ball on the toe. But
never did my loop return.
My plan now is to use this technique every time I practice. If
theories hold, I should be able to grove this swing and repeat it
without the mirror. Of course, I will let you all know how I make
out. In the meantime, to my fellow loopers (over the top swingers)
out there, give this a try and let me know how it works for you. If
may even work for other swing flaws. My guess is that the truly real-
time feedback you get from this drill can have an amazing effect.
While you are looking at the reflection of the ball as you swing, you
can't help also seeing the reflection of your swing using your
peripheral vision. I am truly amazed I could hit the ball as
consitently as I did. I didn't whiff once. Try it. You have nothing
to lose.
Perfect Impact
"ritpg" <ri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ad6e1120-848c-446d...@g20g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
---
You hit the nail on the head, as it were, by changing your CONCEPT of what
to do. HITTING the ball is Barklay's nemesis, and HH doesn't know it.
HH will not succeed with CB because he is not addressing this point -- CB's
mental image/idea/understanding/concept of what to do.
ALLOWING a swinging weight on the end of a rope to swing through the ball
place IS the mental image you and CB need -- and if the mental iimage,
concept, thought of what to do is correct, then the brain knows very clearly
what to do. In your case, you are being tricked in a way INTO this way of
moving the club, instead of simply reforming your own idea to the correct
one, one of throwing a rock on the end of a string, which is the swinger's
procedure. In your own case, think about it: a rock on the end of a
string--how David killed Goliath, and how many of our ancestors hunted.
Manipulate the device by realizing you hold a fulcrum (the end of the rope)
in such a way and swing it (one famous image is a pocket knife on the end of
a handkerchief) so that the striking surface out at the other end happens to
hit the ball that's in the way of its orbit. It's easy if the IDEA of what
to do has been clarified for you.
VERY few of the name/celebrity/visible/politically well positioned teachers
know how to make this point.
George Hibbard
Annika1980
> In your own case, think about it: a rock on the end of a
> string--how David killed Goliath, and how many of our ancestors hunted.
> Manipulate the device by realizing you hold a fulcrum (the end of the rope)
> in such a way and swing it (one famous image is a pocket knife on the end of
> a handkerchief) so that the striking surface out at the other end happens to
> hit the ball that's in the way of its orbit. It's easy if the IDEA of what
> to do has been clarified for you.
>
> VERY few of the name/celebrity/visible/politically well positioned teachers
> know how to make this point.
>
> George Hibbard
C'mon George, you don't think Hank Haney ever heard of Ernest Jones?
Personally, I think the best advice Haney could give Barkley would be
from Percy Boomer. That is the feeling of being "UP" during the
swing, as if your feet and everything else is pushing away from the
planet.
ritpg
I totally agree that my brain is being tricked. What the pro said was
that he wanted to mentally detach me from the physical ball because my
focus is too much on the ball. This has nothing to do with mechanics
or swing thoughts. It has everything to do with enabling me to see
the ball without seeing the ball, at least not where I normally see
it. It's become a subliminal, mental reorientation. As soon as I see
the ball in the usual place, my brain forces an over-the-top swing. I
have no control over that. I think it was brilliant of the pro to
realize this. I've been working on this problem for 50 years and
never thought of this, although I have not been swinging with a full
size mirror either. Interestingly, I'm wondering how many people
there are who can strike the ball as purely and consistenly as I seem
to be able to do while looking in a mirror. I got the impression last
night that no one thought I'd actually be able to hit the ball at all,
much less hit it so well. If any of you readers out there would like
to try this exercise, I'd sure like to know how you make out. I'd
love to know the quality of the ball strike and the consistency. For
all I know, this is some kind of savant ability I never knew I had.
Now everyone wants to know what I plan to do next. Quite simply I
plan to repeat, repeat, repeat until the feel of this new swing is
second nature to me. My concern is that when I try to hit the ball
looking at the actual ball, the resulting change in the orientation of
my head will drive me back to the over the top swing. Someone
proposed that my next step would be to close my eyes just before
starting my backswing. I don't think that will work but who knows.
One thing I do know. When I remove the mirror, I will lose the real-
time feedback mechanism. More to come when I have it. Thanks for
your responses.
Annika1980
I used to have what was called a "Luis Tiant" swing, named after the
famous pitcher.
Luis would look back toward second base during his windup, and I would
allow my head to turn with my shoulders as I took it back to the point
where I was almost looking backwards at the top of the swing. People
would question me about it and I'd just say, "The ball will still be
there when i get back to it."
I'd then tell them that old Chi Chi Rodriguez line, "The USGA has a
machine that can hit the ball 300 yards every time and it has never
seen a golf ball."
Perfect Impact
"Annika1980" <annik...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f467a2e7-01f3-46d5...@e5g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
Bret: It isn't knowing something that gives a teacher the ability to
communicate it: it is deeper than that - a grasp of how the brain itself
must work to process and acquire an understandiing. It is "context," "first
impression," and as I said, "mental concept."
When Mike Austin wrote his brief but unparalleled instruction, he called it
"Golf Is Mental Imagery." Because HE DID understand this, full well. And
when probed by his biographer FOR his "secret," that's what he went back
to - he spoke of having a particular impulse he would activate - and most of
his descriptions were quite perfectly communicated with
medically/kinesiologically precise terms -- his notes included hundreds of
pages of neuro-muscular analysis and discussions.
UNTIL HH COMMUNICATES THE PERCY BOOMER CONCEPT - knife hanging by a hanky -
Barclay will simply not recognize a DIFFERENT PROCESS for moving the club.
Working with him I would have him hold a heavy bolt on a string about 3 feet
long out in front of him with one hand and swing it back and forth. When he
got his 'pendulum' going, I would have him walk over to a box on the floor
and swing his pendulum back and let it smack the box on the way back. IOW,
have him discover himself what he was doing that caused the collision. I'd
gradually have him increase the size of the stroke and shift to his left
hand. Next I'd put a smaller box on the floor about 2 feet in front of his
face and have him get the pendulum going so it swung back and forth just a
few inches inside the box. When he got a pretty good size stroke going, I'd
have him
inch over so the thing would hit the box hard.
Next I'd change the string for a wedge with piece of string tied around the
end of the grip and have him swing IT holding the string - not the grip
itself - and repeat the process.
Next I'd have him hold the grip at the very end with his thumb and
forefinger and repeat.
You can see where this is going. The moment CB would try to "GRAB!" the
club with his enormously large strong hands, he'd have to "go to jail
without collecting $200" and start all over again.
Erasing wrong mental images - changing how someone perceives something - is
dealing with a VERY stubborn element of the human mind, especially when
instinct has been the rule of the day for so many years.
But there isn't any other way.
Perfect Impact
"I totally agree that my brain is being tricked. What the pro said was
that he wanted to mentally detach me from the physical ball because my
focus is too much on the ball. "
---
Read my reply to Annika and see if that doesn't make a difference to you. I
am afraid that without your being "tricked" in the way you have described
that the fix will fail. We revert. The only remedy is a NEW GRASP OF A
REALITY. Truly understanding how something works, hence what muscles and
sequence you MUST use to accomplish the goal. When the trickery is removed
without such understanding, the brain has no resource or new procedure,
since there is no such thing as remembering from feelings. When you do
right, the feelings of the right actions are familiar to you; but that
doesn't enable you to pull them out of thin air. They don't tell you how:
only your logic and knowledge permit that.
ritpg
I had read your reply to Annika. I totally disagree that there is no
such thing as remembering from feelings. I'm sure you've heard of
"muscle memory". Well, that is exactly that: remembering from
feelings. And you are forgetting that I have worked on this loop for
30 of the 50 years I've been playing golf. 30 years! I have tried
every swing thought and swing aid known to man more than once because
many of them turn out to be redundant. What you recommend, I have
tried before in more than one way. What this pro is helping me do is
change my subconscious. Everything I have tried up till now -
including what you recommend - has involved my conscious thought
process. You can't think your way through a golf swing. People who
are not natural golfers, myself included, will only become proficient
if they are coached by a competent golf teacher before they form the
kinds of habits I'm dealing with now. And as they go thru this
training they are doing things that feel totally unnatural to them.
And if they repeat this unatural action enough times, it becomes a
natural feeling to them and they are on their way. But I suspect they
will tend to require more periodic help than natural golfers.
I had a brother, now deceased, who played to a plus 2 or 3 virtually
his entire life playing only once or twice a week. And he never took
a single lesson. He had several offers from people who were willing
to sponsor him on the tour. This was back in the 50s and 60s. He
knew that he would never be able to handle the mental pressures of the
game so he went on to other career pursuits. For him golf was the
ultimate source of enjoyment and he didn't want to change that. He
won countless club championships and enjoyed introducing others to the
game (as, ironically, I do also). As hard as he tried, he could never
pass on to me what he innately and subconsciously knew about the
correct golf swing. Natuarl golfers are "wired" differently from the
rest of us. Like the rest of us, they do what they do because they
don't know any other way. It's just that their way happens to be the
right way. Getting them to play badly would be just as hard as it is
for the rest of us to play well. Oh they have their off times. And
they may even need some occasional help. But what they have inside of
them is just different. During my early years, I knew a guy whose
parents were loaded. He had the best golf instruction money could buy
from the get go. He developed into a scratch golfer. I wish you
could have seen his attempts at other sports. He was the ultimate
clutz. But as long as he continued his golf lessons, he was able to
play decent golf. Interestingly, if he could handle the mental
pressures of the game and was sufficiently mentally competitive, he
might actually have been better suited to the tour than my brother
with all his natural ability. I don't know what ever happened to him.
At this point, the only question to me now is, can I grove this swing
using the mirror which is changing my orientation to the swing enough
to allow me to eliminate a bad habit. The mirror seems to make the
golf swing feel sufficiently different to me that a mental trigger
inextricably linked to the feel of the old swing and which causes me
to come over the top, never happens. And of course the second
question is, will it still be groved when the mirror is removed. You
seem to think not. I'm more optimistic. That does not mean I won't
have to retrain my subconscious from time to time, yes, using a
mirror. If this works, it could be a significant breakthrough in
teaching people who have formed unconscious golf habits how to break
those habits. I have been exposed to many teaching pros over the
years and I have read countless golf books and "tips" in various
publications. One honest pro, after seeing my swing, said he would
not even try to change my swing. He knew how difficult it is to make
a change like this. But I have never seen any one propose a technique
like the one I am now using with the mirror. If it doesn't work, I am
no worse off than I was. Like the title of this thread says, I have
nothing to lose.
ritpg
The interesting thing about me is that, now that I can swing
respectably using the mirror, it does not feel the least bit
uncomfortable or unnatural to me. What the mirror seems to do is
create a new path of consciousness between the physical execution of
the swing (firing musces etc. at precisely the right time) and my
mental perception of the swing. With the mirror, I peripherally get
to see what it really is (real-time) rather than depending on what I
think it is which has clearly been flawed. The human body is an
amazing machine.
Perfect Impact
On Apr 2, 5:27 pm, "Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> "ritpg" <ri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4a937ab4-0810-428a...@k41g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
swinging a rock on a string and gradualizing the transition to a club
bumping a box as it swings back and forth as you hold the tip of the grip
with two fingers,....building O so gradually to larger amplitudes, etc. can
create a DIFFERENT swing approach, as opposed to "fixing" or changing
something already internalized.
Unless you are so paralyzed by a golf club that you cannot remove yourself
from some kind of compulsivity to where with one hand and two fingers you
can make a pendulum action of the club, it is possible to change.
I tell my pupils that we are not going to play golf any more, when their
action is fundamentally flawed. We undertake A NEW THING, as new as it
would be to change to tennis or bowling vs. their previous "game" and
motions.
We eliminate any references to old things, and NEVER hit golf balls until
the new motion stands on its own merits.
The problem for many is attachment to old, refusal to abandon the old, and
continuing to think in old terms.
As you said, it is deeply embedded in the subconscious.
We are all different.
ritpg
We ARE all different. Are you aware of anyone who has ever tried what
I am doing. Have you ever considered trying it on yourself? We all
have flaws of some kind - except for Tiger of course.
rdavis
> during the first lesson. Just telling me to keep my bicep against my
> chest hadn't done it for me. Focusing on moving my right shoulder
> first did. This reminded me of how different people need to hear the
> ideal mechanics expressed in different terms. There was a time when I
> was trying to help a friend out with his swing. Ironically, I could
> see that he was casting. The first thing I told him was to try to
> pinch the ball between the ground and the club face. No effect. Then
> I told him to imagine a horizontal rope between him and the target
> about 5 feet away. I told him to try to hit all iron shots under the
> rope. Bingo! He accomplished what I wanted him to. But I had to
> express what he needed to do mechanically in different terms.
Couldn't agree more ... this is really the crux of the problem in
trying to teach someone IMHO. Different swing thoughts or images don't
work the same way for everybody ... the teacher has to find the one
that works for you (and your specific issue).
Of course, once you find one that works you have to be careful not to
over do it. As Harvey Penick said, "If I tell you to take an aspirin,
don't swallow the whole bottle". So many times the "good" thoughts
stop working because you exaggerate them too much.
Rob
Perfect Impact
"Flaws" is part of the problem: i.e., thinking that "the swing I have is ok
but I have a flaw or two" is what is insidious.
It is not a flaw, in many cases, such as Barklay's. It is a FUNDAMENTAL WAY
OF THINKING. He is not ready for SWINGING a club since his premise before
he even holds it in his hands is TO GRAB IT.
If he were shown an Iron Byron that has only a hinge at the "hand"
connection from the arm to the club, with nothing else to influence the club
in any slightest way, that would be a beginning of changing his concept.
And of course it has only one arm...
ritpg
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think CB's problem is more a phobia. Just out of curiosity, where
do you teach golf?
Perfect Impact
In Palm Coast, FL - a city halfway between Daytona Beach and St. Augustine
R&B
Who, exactly, of note have you ever taught?
Randy
Perfect Impact
"R&B" <none_of_yo...@all.com> wrote in message
news:2009040315125250073-noneofyourbusiness@allcom...
>
> Who, exactly, of note have you ever taught?
>
> Randy
>
Many ordinary people: there are 100 pages of feedback from some of them on
my website that speak to your concern.
Alan Baker
"Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
Wow. Mostly unverifiable "testimonials" (and only 9 pages, not 100).
And who decides what feedback gets chosen to be included on your
website?
That wouldn't be you, would it?
So I guess it isn't too surprising that the feedback is positive, huh?
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
<http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
ritpg
> In article <sHtBl.24026$i9.1...@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
> "Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>
> > "R&B" <none_of_your_busin...@all.com> wrote in message
> >news:2009040315125250073-noneofyourbusiness@allcom...
>
> > > Who, exactly, of note have you ever taught?
>
> > > Randy
>
> > Many ordinary people: there are 100 pages of feedback from some of them on
> > my website that speak to your concern.
>
> Wow. Mostly unverifiable "testimonials" (and only 9 pages, not 100).
>
> And who decides what feedback gets chosen to be included on your
> website?
>
> That wouldn't be you, would it?
>
> So I guess it isn't too surprising that the feedback is positive, huh?
>
> --
> Alan Baker
> Vancouver, British Columbia
> <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
Hey, guys. I would hope we can have a free and open exchange on the
theories concerning the golf swing and how to teach/learn it - with
great emphasis on the word "theories" - without getting personal.
No? Let's feel free to challenge each other but not treat the one
proposing a solution as if we paid for what was proposed. If you feel
that what Perfect Impact is proposing is not to your taste, fine. Now
try reading a Dave Pelz book on putting. Now there is a guy who has
way too much time on his hands and, as an engineer myself, I think I
can say so.
Alan Baker
<706179e0-ac0c-4db5...@e38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
ritpg <ri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
All I'm saying is that he's trying to use "appeal to self-created
approval" as a rhetorical device.
Perfect Impact
"Alan Baker" <alang...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:alangbaker-DC5A5...@news.shawcable.com...
It takes 100 sheets of paper to print out the testimonials on my site
FYI, the 2008 PGA Teacher of the Year, Martin Hall, has not only purchased
and uses my material in his own teaching program, but he also specifically
credited me by name at the Dec. 2008 PGA Teaching Summit for what he has
learned from me (as told to me in person by Martin at the Orlando PGA
Merchandise Show in January 2009, and mentioned by Brian Manzella on his
forum).
Alan Baker
"Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> "Alan Baker" <alang...@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:alangbaker-DC5A5...@news.shawcable.com...
> > In article <sHtBl.24026$i9....@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
> > "Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "R&B" <none_of_yo...@all.com> wrote in message
> >> news:2009040315125250073-noneofyourbusiness@allcom...
> >> >
> >> > Who, exactly, of note have you ever taught?
> >> >
> >> > Randy
> >> >
> >>
> >> Many ordinary people: there are 100 pages of feedback from some of them
> >> on
> >> my website that speak to your concern.
> >
> > Wow. Mostly unverifiable "testimonials" (and only 9 pages, not 100).
> >
> > And who decides what feedback gets chosen to be included on your
> > website?
> >
> > That wouldn't be you, would it?
> >
> > So I guess it isn't too surprising that the feedback is positive, huh?
> >
> > --
> > Alan Baker
> > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> It takes 100 sheets of paper to print out the testimonials on my site
Even if true, what of it? They prove nothing.
>
> FYI, the 2008 PGA Teacher of the Year, Martin Hall, has not only purchased
> and uses my material in his own teaching program, but he also specifically
> credited me by name at the Dec. 2008 PGA Teaching Summit for what he has
> learned from me (as told to me in person by Martin at the Orlando PGA
> Merchandise Show in January 2009, and mentioned by Brian Manzella on his
> forum).
You have proof of this?
Perfect Impact
Yes - do a search under my name and/or Martin Hall/PGA Teaching Summit 2008
on Manzella's forum.
Alan Baker
"Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
No answer, George?
> >
> >>
> >> FYI, the 2008 PGA Teacher of the Year, Martin Hall, has not only
> >> purchased
> >> and uses my material in his own teaching program, but he also
> >> specifically
> >> credited me by name at the Dec. 2008 PGA Teaching Summit for what he has
> >> learned from me (as told to me in person by Martin at the Orlando PGA
> >> Merchandise Show in January 2009, and mentioned by Brian Manzella on his
> >> forum).
> >
> > You have proof of this?
> >
> > --
> > Alan Baker
> > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> Yes - do a search under my name and/or Martin Hall/PGA Teaching Summit 2008
> on Manzella's forum.
Nope. You do it.
Bobby Knight
wrote:
>In article <KiwBl.24436$b9....@bignews6.bellsouth.net>,
> "Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>> >> FYI, the 2008 PGA Teacher of the Year, Martin Hall, has not only
>> >> purchased
>> >> and uses my material in his own teaching program, but he also
>> >> specifically
>> >> credited me by name at the Dec. 2008 PGA Teaching Summit for what he has
>> >> learned from me (as told to me in person by Martin at the Orlando PGA
>> >> Merchandise Show in January 2009, and mentioned by Brian Manzella on his
>> >> forum).
>> >
>> > You have proof of this?
>> >
>> Yes - do a search under my name and/or Martin Hall/PGA Teaching Summit 2008
>> on Manzella's forum.
>
>Nope. You do it.
C'mon Alan. George has been no problem here in his last few visits.
He's only given his positions on teaching golf...with no Spam, even in
his sig which is allowable. He hasn't posted a link to his web
site, mentioned CDs or books. He only mentioned it (without name)
when asked who he had taught.
Plus, show me a web site that isn't full of hype. You either believe
it or not, its just one teaching system of dozens. It doesn't do
anything for me, but again...just my opinion.
--
___,
\o
|
/ \
.
“Someone likes every shot”
bk
Alan Baker
Bobby Knight <bkn...@conramp.net> wrote:
I've no problem with his website being full of hype: I just have a
problem with him pretending that hype *proves* or even supports anything.
Fact is, I did a Google search, found Manzella's forum and didn't find
the info that George claimed was there.
Perfect Impact
Alan Baker
"Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> FYI, the 2008 PGA Teacher of the Year, Martin Hall, has not only
> >> >> >> purchased
> >> >> >> and uses my material in his own teaching program, but he also
> >> >> >> specifically
> >> >> >> credited me by name at the Dec. 2008 PGA Teaching Summit for what
> >> >> >> he
> >> >> >> has
> >> >> >> learned from me (as told to me in person by Martin at the Orlando
> >> >> >> PGA
> >> >> >> Merchandise Show in January 2009, and mentioned by Brian Manzella
> >> >> >> on
> >> >> >> his
> >> >> >> forum).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You have proof of this?
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> Yes - do a search under my name and/or Martin Hall/PGA Teaching Summit
> >> >> 2008
> >> >> on Manzella's forum.
> >> >
> >> >Nope. You do it.
> It's here:
> http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/11282-2008-pga-teaching
> -coaching-summit-review.html
Wow:
"He even threw George Hibbard a bone!"
That's proof positive that Martin Hall "uses [your] material in his own
teaching program"...
LOL
Perfect Impact
Alan, Alan, you poor soul. Why do you have such an issue with simple facts?
The event did not play out so that someday afterward I would "have proof" of
anything. I simply reported a truth. I spent a half hour with Martin AT
the PGA Merchandise show [in which the honor of Teacher of the Year was
bestowed on him....] in which we talked in some depth about points he
enjoyed and used from my teaching, and it was a very enjoyable exchange
between us - sharing stuff that teachers love to share. I was in fact quite
surprised of the extent to which he knew of my work. And used it.
Actually, coming from him I was quite taken over it.
But you can't live with something simple like that, I guess.
Further, if you have ANY knowledge of Mr. Manzella's incredibly fragile ego
and his daily begging for people to see how great a teacher HE is, the fact
that he would even MENTION my name on his site is pretty remarkable. It
must have killed him. Coming from Brian, the comment was a lightning bolt.
Again, condescending as is his wont. Brian believes I am senile, I'm sure.
Demented, and all that stuff, you know. If you do NOT know of the tight
controls he exercises over his forum, you have a lot to learn about him.
Just to MENTION someone else is a heck of a departure from normal operating
procedure.
And BTW, I do not censor testimonials and exclude the negatives. I just
don't get them, and if a customer isn't happy with something, I make good.
I hope you'll just drop it now. I was asked and I answered. That's enough,
ok?
Alan Baker
"Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> "Alan Baker" <alang...@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:alangbaker-788D0...@news.shawcable.com...
> > In article <bNxBl.24007$i9.1...@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
> > "Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> >
> > "He even threw George Hibbard a bone!"
> >
> > That's proof positive that Martin Hall "uses [your] material in his own
> > teaching program"...
> >
> > LOL
> >
> > --
> > Alan Baker
> > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > <http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg>
>
> Alan, Alan, you poor soul. Why do you have such an issue with simple facts?
George, George, George... I have no issue with facts.
But the facts are that someone "threw you a bone".
>
> The event did not play out so that someday afterward I would "have proof" of
> anything. I simply reported a truth. I spent a half hour with Martin AT
> the PGA Merchandise show [in which the honor of Teacher of the Year was
> bestowed on him....] in which we talked in some depth about points he
> enjoyed and used from my teaching, and it was a very enjoyable exchange
> between us - sharing stuff that teachers love to share. I was in fact quite
> surprised of the extent to which he knew of my work. And used it.
> Actually, coming from him I was quite taken over it.
>
> But you can't live with something simple like that, I guess.
>
> Further, if you have ANY knowledge of Mr. Manzella's incredibly fragile ego
> and his daily begging for people to see how great a teacher HE is, the fact
> that he would even MENTION my name on his site is pretty remarkable. It
> must have killed him. Coming from Brian, the comment was a lightning bolt.
> Again, condescending as is his wont. Brian believes I am senile, I'm sure.
> Demented, and all that stuff, you know. If you do NOT know of the tight
> controls he exercises over his forum, you have a lot to learn about him.
> Just to MENTION someone else is a heck of a departure from normal operating
> procedure.
>
> And BTW, I do not censor testimonials and exclude the negatives. I just
> don't get them, and if a customer isn't happy with something, I make good.
Of course you don't.
LOL
>
> I hope you'll just drop it now. I was asked and I answered. That's enough,
> ok?
Sure. You used next to nothing as proof of your greatness. I'm fine with
that.
BAR
I taught the current USPA Director of Safety and Training to skydive.
Who would have known that when he came to make his first jump he would
one day ascend to the position he now holds.
Don Kirkman
<wc6dndtZm7vTx0rU...@giganews.com>:
If the jump hadn't gone well he probably would have ascended higher
and faster. :-)
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
ritpg
>
> - Show quoted text -
I had another practice session over the weekend. The pro was there to
observe and comment but had other students to focus on. I started
with the objective of swinging only using the mirror to become more
familiar with feel of the new swing. But of course temptation was too
strong and had to make 2 swings looking directly at the ball. I had
the video camera going the whole time. As long as I looked at the
reflection of the ball, my swing was virtually loopless. As soon as I
looked at the ball, it was ba-ack!!! I then tried just looking to my
right but not at the reflection of the ball in the mirror. Still
loopless. And I hit the ball as purely as I had when looking a the
reflection. So what can I conclude from that??? I think I mentioned
in a previous post that I am naturally left handed. At least I think
I am. I use my left hand for precision and right hand for strength.
I throw right handed and batted strictly left handed until I
discovered one day that I had more power swinging right handed. In
basketball, I could use either hand around the basket but tended to
dribble better right handed. The one thing I'll never understand
about myself is that I kick a football right footed - and there is no
such thing as a left- or right-handed football, the last time I
checked. My understanding is that your dominant eye determines which
you are. And I am definitely left eye dominant. I say all this
hoping that the readers out there won't decide that I am so screwed up
and exceptional that I'm not worth your time.
The conclusion I am coming to is that my problem is not so much a
matter of forming bad habits as it is a matter of spatial orientation
possibly relating to my left-handedness. Seeing the ball in the
mirror does not seem to be as much a factor as the orientation of my
head as I look to the right at the mirror. It is the significant
change in the orientation of my head that seems to be making all the
difference. And as soon as I resume the traditional head orientation,
I'm toast. As far as I can tell - from feel and from reviewing the
video - there is no difference in result between looking at the ball
in the mirror and just looking to the right in the general direction
of the mirror but not focusing on the ball for as long as I can
throughout the swing. So, it would appear that I am striking the ball
by becoming a swinger rather than a hitter. And the ball happens to
get in the way of a reasonably executed swing. Will this work for me
on the course? I doubt it because making good contact only slightly
better than 50% of the time just isn't going to be good enough to
maintain the mental discipline needed to continue to swing this way.
Also with all the variables on the golf course, I suspect things will
be much worse out there. Short of a brain transplant, I'm not sure
where to go from here. I have toyed with the idea of switching to
left handed play. But at 61 years old, I'm not sure I have the time
to make that transition. You'll laugh but there was a time in my
earlier years when I played with left handed woods and right handed
irons and played pretty well too. I certainly got a lot of stares and
comments. For now, my plan is to continue to swing with the mirror
and see if I can't accomplish some kind of spatial reorientation
through repetition. As always, all comments are welcome.
Annika1980
> For now, my plan is to continue to swing with the mirror
> and see if I can't accomplish some kind of spatial reorientation
> through repetition.
Maybe the guy in the mirror will be a good golfer. But I doubt that
you will.
What is your goal? To have a pretty swing or to play golf well?
ritpg
Unless you are playing a lot more golf than I get to play, the two are
not mutually exclusive. The pretty swing as you call it is nothing
more or less than the most efficient simplification of action needed
to move the ball as desired.
My goal is consistent ball striking - irons and woods - and to
accomplish this I need a swing with the fewest possible moving parts.
Last year during the 14 9-hole matches I had in my golf league, I shot
44 to 46 71% of the time on a course with a slope of 125. My low
score was 38 and my high was 49. I shot 45 7 times. Obviously, that
was pretty consistent scoring but the devil is in the detail. My
short game was pretty good last year and allowed me to salvage many
holes. I got up and down for bogies many, many times. Another goal
is to return to the league this year with little to none of what has
become the signature loop in my swing just for the satisfaction of
seeing the reactions. As long as I've been playing this game, I don't
think my expectations are unreasonable.
Perfect Impact
When in my own game, or when working with a pupil - when a ball striking
issue comes up, I find I can get back to the very very most basic elements
by reducing the swing to an extremely short motion, where eyes, body, arms,
hands, etc. are able to be observed with great precision. WE ARE NOT
VICTIMS. How we move anything and whether we hit the ball -- provided your
eye glasses don't contaminate your perception of exactly where the ball is -
is totally a consciously in control. With short swings where clubshaft
never gets higher than parallel to the ground, it is possible to be
absolutely perfect. Perfect in centered impact, in clubface direction, in
path direction, in body sequence, in free arm motion, etc. There is no loop
unless you put one there, and if you do not go "to the wrong place," you go
to A place and then you return to the ball FROM THAT PLACE. You don't go to
one place, move, and THEN return from that second place.
Once this is established with short clubs and these kind of short swings,
you grow the swings EVER SO GRADUALLY to larger motions in such a way as to
allow NO viruses, NO new motions, NO anomalies, NO departure from good
mechanics. If you don't know EXACTLY where your hands and the shaft need to
be in these short shots, you clearly need to find that out; i.e., you need
to be on plane with all parts. Most golfers get under plane- AND THAT
CAUSES THE LOOPING. So you don't stop looping by trickery, if indeed your
loop is from that error: you stop by CHANGING THE PLACE to where your hands
and the shaft go.
The problem for virtually all golfers is the unwillingness to go back to
this manner of learning and fixing: i.e., abandoning hitting balls as
normally or playing golf while the retraining is under way. Like a pianist
practicing for a concert: if he chooses to go on stage before he has
installed the right habits, his "concert" will be a disaster. So it is not
about ability: good golf is in the will.
ritpg
> "ritpg" <ri...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ah but too bad the flesh is weak.
David Laville
<g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>FYI, the 2008 PGA Teacher of the Year, Martin Hall, has not only purchased
>and uses my material in his own teaching program, but he also specifically
>credited me by name at the Dec. 2008 PGA Teaching Summit for what he has
>learned from me (as told to me in person by Martin at the Orlando PGA
>Merchandise Show in January 2009, and mentioned by Brian Manzella on his
>forum).
Isn't this special. YOU have a history of considering TGM the most
inferior golf instruction book ever written and consider its
instructors dumb, stupid, not able to think outside the box, etc. Now
all of a sudden you like throwing around the names of 2 TGM
instructors as if they're the epitome of knowledge of credibility.
You'll never change.
David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
Perfect Impact
"David Laville" <dgla...@nospam.bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:56tkt45eg3lfr3iiq...@4ax.com...
??????????
You ok, David? Still putting words in someone else's mouth? --About "the
most inferior instruction book ever written....." -- no... Look up
"leaping to conclusions: logical fallacies." Assuming things in order to
justify a desired pejorative conclusion is not really very new nor very
clever--it's listed among the Aristotelian fallacies. Start your own thread
if you wish to initiate another personal attack: this one is about golf.
Re TGM, perhaps you are aware of how much BM is distancing himself from not
a few of TGM's hallowed non-negotiables.
Re Martin Hall, I did not say I agreed with MH: HE said HE used things he
learned from ME. For all I know, he might be referring to my disagreements
with the sacred "flat left wrist" -- and with my approach to how the hands
hinge and work together--maybe some other things--I don't know everything he
had in mind when we talked.
Yes: there are instructors who are limited to rigid concepts. Yes, there
are instructors who are not.
And good ON Martin Hall: he seems to be a nice guy, open to new ideas, and
gracious. Does "gracious" appear in the GSEM exam?
Re your signature. Have you set it to music yet?
David Laville
<g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>??????????
>
>You ok, David? Still putting words in someone else's mouth? --About "the
>most inferior instruction book ever written....." -- no... Look up
>"leaping to conclusions: logical fallacies." Assuming things in order to
>justify a desired pejorative conclusion is not really very new nor very
>clever--it's listed among the Aristotelian fallacies. Start your own thread
>if you wish to initiate another personal attack: this one is about golf.
I should be asking you Mr. Hibbard if you are okay. Google is loaded
with your belittling, criticizing and slams against Homer Kelley and
TGM.
>Re TGM, perhaps you are aware of how much BM is distancing himself from not
>a few of TGM's hallowed non-negotiables.
Why do you think that is? Lynn Blake put an end to BM's dreams of
being the next TGM guru. So now BM has to re-market himself as being
beyond TGM. This is exactly what you do, write books and claim the
contents is beyond what is written in any other golf book.
>Re Martin Hall, I did not say I agreed with MH: HE said HE used things he
>learned from ME. For all I know, he might be referring to my disagreements
>with the sacred "flat left wrist" -- and with my approach to how the hands
>hinge and work together--maybe some other things--I don't know everything he
>had in mind when we talked.
So Martin Hall, a top instructor told you he used things he learned
from you and you never bothered to ask what those things were? You,
Mr. Testimonial who will use a testimonial from a cricket and post it
on his web site let a testimonial from Martin Hall slip by? Surely
you jest.
>And good ON Martin Hall: he seems to be a nice guy, open to new ideas, and
>gracious. Does "gracious" appear in the GSEM exam?
Does it appear in the Perfect Impact exam? You do have an exam to
verify all those instructors teaching Perfect Impact are knowledgeable
and certifiable don't you?
>Re your signature. Have you set it to music yet?
What does my signature have to do with any of this besides being the
same credentials Martin Hall has and you don't?
R&B
Look, you can say what you will about Dave Pelz. Personally, I'm not a
fan. But he has taught some of the world's best players, and many of
those players would credit him with having had a positive influence on
them becoming one of the world's best players. There's no getting
around the fact that a lot of very good players pay attention to what
Pelz has to say, even if they're not his students.
All I was asking for was a clarification as to whether some of George's
better students were players we've all heard of, or whether they were
merely players who have managed to get good enough to have fun playing
golf, but they needed to move on to another instructor after George who
could take them to that next level if they wanted to get REALLY good,
like play-golf-for-a-living good. Does anyone know of any such pupil
of George's who has played golf for a living on a tour? There's no
shame in not coaching the world's best players, instead coaching
weekend hacks. This isn't about trying to indict George personally.
Really, it isn't.
But one tends to weigh the veracity of a person's declarations about
golf swing theory based upon the fruits those theories have borne.
Pelz has had something to do with Mickelson winning. Phil will readily
admit that. George's biggest accomplishment in coaching, for all we
know, has been improving Mickelmeier so he would only go through two
sleeves of balls per round instead of five. Hey, that's progress.
Can't take that away from him. If George is getting guys like that to
feel like their game is coming under control, he's doing his job. And
God bless him for it.
George has often spoken here about how he is a much better instructor
than so many others both famous and not so famous. I'm just pointing
out that if he's so much better, what results does he show for it?
What fruits have his teachings borne? Have any of his pupils ever won
anything? A city championship? A club championship? A $5 nassau?
Anything?
I'm sure there are Hibbard students who have gone on to big things in
golf. Or will. I just haven't yet heard of one. He has yet to
produce them.
I'm looking forward to the day when one emerges. Then all of RSG can
rally around him when he bursts on TOUR and we rabid fans become known
as Hibbies.
I'm looking forward to hearing about it when it happens.
Randy
R&B
> It takes 100 sheets of paper to print out the testimonials on my site
Yes, if you type it in 72 pt. font, maybe.
Randy
scarletfire77
"Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
news:iTvCl.25624$v8....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> Re Martin Hall, I did not say I agreed with MH: HE said HE used things he
> learned from ME.
What was it that he learned and spoke about?
Please share, you spoke with him about it--what was it?
Perfect Impact
"scarletfire77" <scarle...@heynow.com> wrote in message
news:VpzCl.18248$_R4....@newsfe11.iad...
skier, and how I differentiated between the Mercury engines pulling the
skier and the kid in the back of the boat pulling the skier's rope - an
image that makes the point how "the hands just hold on and power originates
in the body." He spoke to me about my discussions on measuring for perfect
impact...and of many "critical details" - which themselves are described in
my book using that term in the title. It was not just the "whats" of what
one does, but the approach used in presenting ideas to pupils - as teachers
and how to be effective. What to say, how to say it...
scarletfire77
Perfect Impact
to do.
ritpg
> "Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
>
> news:76ACl.25297$i9....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:VpzCl.18248$_R4....@newsfe11.iad...
>
> >> "Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> >>news:iTvCl.25624$v8....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> >>> Re Martin Hall, I did not say I agreed with MH: HE said HE used things
> >>> he learned from ME.
>
> >> What was it that he learned and spoke about?
> >> Please share, you spoke with him about it--what was it?
> > He spoke about my imagery/the principle behind a speedboat pulling a water
> > skier, and how I differentiated between the Mercury engines pulling the
> > skier and the kid in the back of the boat pulling the skier's rope - an
> > image that makes the point how "the hands just hold on and power
> > originates in the body." He spoke to me about my discussions on measuring
> > for perfect impact...and of many "critical details" - which themselves are
> > described in my book using that term in the title. It was not just the
> > "whats" of what one does, but the approach used in presenting ideas to
> > pupils - as teachers and how to be effective. What to say, how to say
> > it...
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Give the guy a break. He just told you.
David Laville
<g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>He spoke about my imagery/the principle behind a speedboat pulling a water
>skier, and how I differentiated between the Mercury engines pulling the
>skier and the kid in the back of the boat pulling the skier's rope - an
>image that makes the point how "the hands just hold on and power originates
>in the body."
In other words swinging where radial acceleration from the pivot
swings the inert left arm via the #4 pressure point.
>He spoke to me about my discussions on measuring for perfect
>impact..
In other words '"impact fix" where the player shifts into impact
position to establish the correct left shoulder to ball radius and
verify 6 alignments;
1 - clubface to target line
2- grip to clubface
3 - hands to ball
4 - plane angle
5 - pressure points
6 - right forearm position
>and of many "critical details" - which themselves are described in
>my book using that term in the title.
This is taken from your web site in description of your book;
"You will not find the critical information in this book anywhere
except in our books and videos".
That is a lie and false advertising. I just showed above your
measuring for perfect impact has already been written about. It was
written about 40 years before your book was published in another book
titled The Golfing Machine.
Perfect Impact
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 00:03:22 -0400, "Perfect Impact"
> <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>
>>He spoke about my imagery/the principle behind a speedboat pulling a water
>>skier, and how I differentiated between the Mercury engines pulling the
>>skier and the kid in the back of the boat pulling the skier's rope - an
>>image that makes the point how "the hands just hold on and power
>>originates
>>in the body."
>
> In other words swinging where radial acceleration from the pivot
> swings the inert left arm via the #4 pressure point.
>
My imagery says a heck of lot more than that... Metaphors are much more
informative than some people realize.
>>He spoke to me about my discussions on measuring for perfect
>>impact..
>
> In other words '"impact fix" where the player shifts into impact
> position to establish the correct left shoulder to ball radius and
> verify 6 alignments;
>
> 1 - clubface to target line
>
> 2- grip to clubface
>
> 3 - hands to ball
>
> 4 - plane angle
>
> 5 - pressure points
>
> 6 - right forearm position
>
>>and of many "critical details" - which themselves are described in
>>my book using that term in the title.
>
> This is taken from your web site in description of your book;
>
> "You will not find the critical information in this book anywhere
> except in our books and videos".
>
> That is a lie and false advertising. I just showed above your
> measuring for perfect impact has already been written about. It was
> written about 40 years before your book was published in another book
> titled The Golfing Machine.
>
DAVID, I DIDN'T SAY IT DIDN'T EXIST. I SAID YOU WOULDN'T FIND IT!
>
>
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
David, david, david.....
Teaching golf is not about "knowing what is right," you deluded man.
It is about how to say truth to your listener in a way that he will
comprehend it. Perfect instruction in French to an Eskimo who never had any
schooling may convince the TEACHER that he is a genius, but the pupil looks
blankly at the idiot teacher knowing that HE is the clueless one. It
wouldn't matter if Homer was absolutely perfect in every thing he ever said
or did; but humans, GOLFERS such as the people I work for and with, will
have nothing to do with it when they are interested in truly getting
help--for the simple reason that it is the TEACHER'S OBLIGATION TO MAKE HIS
INSTRUCTION UNDERSTANDABLE, not the pupil's obligation to learn Greek or
whatever. Hence the very reason those teachers familiar with it WHO KNOW
THAT TEACHING IS ABOUT COMMUNICATION do NOT spout its lingo. But if you
believe the Greek, convoluted, mish-mash, obscure, unbelievably unavailable
and unreadable format and presentation of TGM is the way to go, have at it.
I probably sold more copies of my first video "5 Minutes to a Perfect Golf
Swing" - a simple demo that an 8-year old girl could easily understand and
do to produce a great swing in a few minutes - in the first couple years of
its availability than ALL the copies of TGM sold in the last 35 years.
If TGM is so magnificent, seems it would be competing with Hogan or a dozen
others for popularity. It might benefit you to know that 99.99% of the
golfers of the world do NOT expect or ambition to go into professional tour
golf for a living, and that "getting it" to the point of enjoyment is
sufficient... I could practice putting for hours if I wanted to, to become
perfecter....Don't want to.
When Martin Hall told me about things he learned from me, it was about how I
taught and made concepts understandable, as well AS concepts that were not
made clear from his other sources.
Furthermore I have yet to see anywhere in HK where he indeed does talk about
HOW TO MEASURE correctly for stretch/flexibilitiy in the shoulderblades, in
the wrists --- or the downcock that makes the armclub considerably longer--a
full stretch of that kind at setup would introduce considerable unwanted
tension into the pre-takeaway conditions. To mention only one. Resorting
to a simple "impact fix" is, as we say, NQEI ("not quite enough
information").
As a matter of fact, nearly ALL instruction sold I find to be to some degree
or other identical in that regard: i.e., that it contains NOT ENOUGH
INFORMATION. One of my prime examples is of Nick Faldo's instruction about
the transition in his coffee table book: "Do it slowly!" MINE takes 14
pages...
[My use of such an acronym, NQEI, came from a friend's experiences in the
Phillipines, where she had spent 5 years as a school teacher; she had a way
of expressing herself about life there: NQR stood for {"not quite right" to
describe all those incidents and occurrences such as the cab ride that ran
out of gas halfway to her destination, the auto repair that failed as she
drove away, the part purchased for a gadget replacement that didn't fit, the
electricity going off at key moments, and all the other predictably NQRs
that were routine.]
Yup, a teacher who knows it all is a genius. Yup. Communicating it -- well
that's another story.
David Laville
<g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>> This is taken from your web site in description of your book;
>>
>> "You will not find the critical information in this book anywhere
>> except in our books and videos".
>>
>> That is a lie and false advertising. I just showed above your
>> measuring for perfect impact has already been written about. It was
>> written about 40 years before your book was published in another book
>> titled The Golfing Machine.
>>
>DAVID, I DIDN'T SAY IT DIDN'T EXIST. I SAID YOU WOULDN'T FIND IT!
The Golfing Machine is readily available on-line, at bookstores, the
public library and your nearest authorized Golfing Machine instructor.
How can you make the claim you can't find the information anywhere
except in your books and videos?
>David, david, david.....
>
>Teaching golf is not about "knowing what is right," you deluded man.
>
>It is about how to say truth to your listener in a way that he will
>comprehend it. Perfect instruction in French to an Eskimo who never had any
>schooling may convince the TEACHER that he is a genius, but the pupil looks
>blankly at the idiot teacher knowing that HE is the clueless one. It
>wouldn't matter if Homer was absolutely perfect in every thing he ever said
>or did; but humans, GOLFERS such as the people I work for and with, will
>have nothing to do with it when they are interested in truly getting
>help--for the simple reason that it is the TEACHER'S OBLIGATION TO MAKE HIS
>INSTRUCTION UNDERSTANDABLE, not the pupil's obligation to learn Greek or
>whatever. Hence the very reason those teachers familiar with it WHO KNOW
>THAT TEACHING IS ABOUT COMMUNICATION do NOT spout its lingo.
Did you read my post on chipping? It's nothing more than TGM basic
motion and not only did I describe how to do it and didn't use one TGM
word or lingo. According to your paragraph above that is what makes a
good instructor. Thanks Mr.Hibbard, I appreciate the compliment!
>But if you
>believe the Greek, convoluted, mish-mash, obscure, unbelievably unavailable
>and unreadable format and presentation of TGM is the way to go, have at it.
Is this your new catch term for TGM, "unavailable"? It's available
on-line, at bookstores, the public library and your nearest
authorized Golfing Machine instructor. You can also access it on-line
via the Lynn Blake and Brian Manzella golf forums where they can even
explain it to you.
But leave it to you to come up with a new idiotic catch term about it,
"unavailable".
>I probably sold more copies of my first video "5 Minutes to a Perfect Golf
>Swing" - a simple demo that an 8-year old girl could easily understand and
>do to produce a great swing in a few minutes - in the first couple years of
>its availability than ALL the copies of TGM sold in the last 35 years.
The key word is "probably". I can write a golf book that will
"probably" sell more copies in a week than you will in a life time.
>If TGM is so magnificent, seems it would be competing with Hogan or a dozen
>others for popularity.
Where have you been living, under a rock? Ever heard of Lynn Blake (I
know you have)? He's TGM guru trained by Homer Kelley himself. He's
been on the internet scene half the time you have. In that short time
he's created the most successful golf instruction site on the web with
over 6400 registered users, inspired countless web sites, videos, and
blogs dedicated to TGM and it's principles. He's been sought by
numerous touring pros for instruction and now has "tour instructor"
credentials.
Since you think Perfect Impact is so magnificent compared to TGM I
have to ask;
Where is your golf forum?
How many members does it have?
How many web sites, videos or blogs are dedicated to Perfect Impact
and its principles?
How many tour players have sought you for lessons?
Where is your "tour instructor" credentials?
>It might benefit you to know that 99.99% of the
>golfers of the world do NOT expect or ambition to go into professional tour
>golf for a living, and that "getting it" to the point of enjoyment is
>sufficient... I could practice putting for hours if I wanted to, to become
>perfecter....Don't want to.
Pull out your copy of TGM and turn to the last paragraph of the
preface. Read where it states;
"This book is dedicated to Joe Duffer and Joe Pro for keeping golf
alive and is intended to serve as the Duffer's Bible, the Golf Nut's
Catalog, the Circuit Players Handbook and the Instructor's Textbook".
Now turn to 1-E Pattern Development;
"The student who can play and practice only occasionally should not be
induced to proceed on the lines of detail and precision that a
prospective champion would be".
TGM is not intended for professionals only, it's aimed at the
recreational golfer as well. Get it?
>Furthermore I have yet to see anywhere in HK where he indeed does talk about
>HOW TO MEASURE correctly for stretch/flexibilitiy in the shoulderblades, in
>the wrists --- or the downcock that makes the armclub considerably longer--a
>full stretch of that kind at setup would introduce considerable unwanted
>tension into the pre-takeaway conditions.
2-J-1 Impact Alignments
12-3-0 Mechanical Checklist For All Strokes
Section 2 - Impact Fix
David Laville
wrote:
>> In other words, you're not going to tell me?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Give the guy a break. He just told you.
Hey genius, here's the guy you want us to give a break too;
http://www.truveo.com/Golfing-Machine-vs-Perfect-Impact/id/279942750
Perfect Impact
> yada yada yada.............. "full of sound and fury..."
> David Laville, G.S.E.M.
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
What's your fixation, David? There's a golf tournament going on.
Are you put out that someone invaded your turf here on RSG?
Perfect Impact
> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:36:53 -0700 (PDT), ritpg <ri...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> In other words, you're not going to tell me?- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>Give the guy a break. He just told you.
>
>
> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
If you can't "win" with truth, David, be sure to resort to deception. The
video you posted is NOT my swing: it a demonstration of what Dan Shauger
was teaching at the time of Mike Austin's last days. As you can see, such
is clearly am inadequate procedure for real golfers.
Here is MY swing. www.perfectimpact.com/DriverSwing.wmv
Delilah Jones
That's a dance.
_______________________________________________________________________
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com
Perfect Impact
"Delilah Jones" <delila...@live.com> wrote in message
news:n3i2b6x...@recgroups.com...
> On Apr 9 2009 4:16 PM, Perfect Impact wrote:
>> If you can't "win" with truth, David, be sure to resort to deception.
>> The
>> video you posted is NOT my swing: it a demonstration of what Dan Shauger
>> was teaching at the time of Mike Austin's last days. As you can see,
>> such
>> is clearly am inadequate procedure for real golfers.
>>
>> Here is MY swing. www.perfectimpact.com/DriverSwing.wmv
>
> That's a dance.
Yup, for sure. Rhythm...., I got rhythm..., ain't noBODY got my rhythm like
a MINE.
Alan Baker
"Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
Surely that's not the swing your preaching as "Perfect Impact"...
...is it?
bighor...@hotmail.com
> In article <UgxDl.27146$qa.10...@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
> "Perfect Impact" <g...@perfectimpact.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Delilah Jones" <delilah-jo...@live.com> wrote in message
> >news:n3i2b6x...@recgroups.com...
> > > On Apr 9 2009 4:16 PM, Perfect Impact wrote:
> > >> If you can't "win" with truth, David, be sure to resort to deception.
> > >> The
> > >> video you posted is NOT my swing: it a demonstration of what Dan Shauger
> > >> was teaching at the time of Mike Austin's last days. As you can see,
> > >> such
> > >> is clearly am inadequate procedure for real golfers.
>
> > >> Here is MY swing. www.perfectimpact.com/DriverSwing.wmv
>
> > > That's a dance.
>
> > Yup, for sure. Rhythm...., I got rhythm..., ain't noBODY got my rhythm like
> > a MINE.
>
> > > _______________________________________________________________________
> > > RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader :www.recgroups.com
>
> Surely that's not the swing your preaching as "Perfect Impact"...
>
> ...is it?
>
Yep, that's it. He's even proud of it.