NFL's most over-rated QB
mohan.sekhar
The answer is "Young" ........
What has Young done with SF till today ????
With a team like SF any average QB will do well in the regular season. A
couple of years back Bono did very well and infact SF was looking to trade
Young. Statistics don't mean a damn if the QB does not deliver when needed !
The going gets tough when the play-offs start ... and what has Young done in
play-offs ?
Great QBs are those who can lead the team by example & make everybody around
them play better. Nobody in NFL history has done this better than Joe Montana.
The man was a proven talent and always delivered when needed. SF made the
biggest blunder in trading away Montana and keeping Young. The 1992 season's
MVP award was the comedy of the year: Young on his own almost gave away the
play-off game against Washington, lost to Dallas in the conference finals,
and helped the NFC lose the pro-bowl game !
Yes he did lead all QBs in Fumbles and Interceptions in 1992's NFL Post-Season
Games !
At a $5+ million salary, he should be voted 1993's MVP too for taking the SF
Organization for the biggest ride of all time and for making the AFC much
stronger with the addition of the greatest QB of all time !
I think it was Al Michaels (ABC) who once said of Cunningham:
"A very talented and athletic QB who runs with the ball more often not knowing
what to do with the ball" - The same can be said of Young too !
Mohan
Bob Marshall
>
>The answer is "Young" ........
What does Steve Young have to do to satisfy people like you? Unless he wins
a Super Bowl, he's a bum, right? (And then, after he wins one, the tune will
change to "until he wins four, like Joe, he's still a bum"). There are plenty
of other QBs who have never won a Super Bowl, and lots of QBs who have never
even made the playoffs; why aren't you ripping those guys to pieces, too?
=============================================================================
Bob Marshall \\ If 10% is good enough for Jesus,
Lockheed Missiles & Space Co. \\ it ought to be good enough for
Sunnyvale, CA \\ Uncle Sam!
mars...@nebula.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com\\
"I tell the truth 'cept when I lie" \\ - Ray Stevens
=============================================================================
Brian L. Lichorowic
of one season under his belt ( Majik started 4 games) and is getting really
really hyped in the magazines is:
Brett Favre of Green Bay
This is not a knock on Brett, I just think in takes more that one season to
get mentioned in the same breaths a Marino, Elway and Montana..
Brian L. Lichorowic
InterCon Systems Corporation
All Statements are my own...
My company's to smart to say the stupid things I say...
Dean Samos
: What does Steve Young have to do to satisfy people like you? Unless he wins
Wasn't it Roger Craig's fumble in the Conference Championship in
1991 that kept Steve Young from starting in a Super Bowl? It wasn't
Young's fault.
Allan Proos
>
> What has Young done with SF till today ????
>
> With a team like SF any average QB will do well in the regular season. A
> couple of years back Bono did very well and infact SF was looking to trade
> Young. Statistics don't mean a damn if the QB does not deliver when needed !
> The going gets tough when the play-offs start ... and what has Young done in
> play-offs ?
>
> Great QBs are those who can lead the team by example & make everybody around
> them play better. Nobody in NFL history has done this better than Joe Montana.
> The man was a proven talent and always delivered when needed. SF made the
> biggest blunder in trading away Montana and keeping Young. The 1992 season's
> MVP award was the comedy of the year: Young on his own almost gave away the
> play-off game against Washington, lost to Dallas in the conference finals,
> and helped the NFC lose the pro-bowl game !
>
> Yes he did lead all QBs in Fumbles and Interceptions in 1992's NFL Post-Season
> Games !
>
Timothy Dry
I believe the following quarterbacks have never won a Super Bowl, though
I would bet that a good portion of them will end up in the Hall of Fame.
John Elway
Dan Marino
Warren Moon
Fran Tarkenton
Jim Kelly
Danny White
Dan Fouts (Just inducted this year)
Ken Anderson
Tim Dry
t...@bvd.jpl.nasa.gov
Dave Blaszyk
: In article <CBKA...@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, moh...@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohan.sekhar) writes:
: >
: >The answer is "Young" ........
Quit sniffing glue it is "clouding" your thought patterns. :-)
Young, by a wide margin, is the most complete quarterback in the league.
He can run, throw short or long, roll-out and throw, etc...
You build a team around his offensive talents.
No I am not a 49ers fan, but I know a superstar when I see one,
-dvb-)
Jay Lawlor ~
Dean> Wasn't it Roger Craig's fumble in the Conference Championship in
Dean> 1991 that kept Steve Young from starting in a Super Bowl? It wasn't
Dean> Young's fault.
Sorry, that doesn't count. Montana would have known that Craig was
going to fumble and would have "willed" the ball back into his hands.
And just suppose that Craig hadn't fumbled and that they won that game
and then managed to win the superbowl. It still wouldn't count because
Montana was the one who got them to the conference championship.
Anybody can come in and be a 1-day-wonder but you have to be
consistently great to even get to the championship.
And it also doesn't count if you have the consistency all season and
get to the conference championship but lose a fairly close game to
a great team which goes on to blow out its opponent in the Super Bowl.
Montana would have played offense, defense, and been the field goal
kicker if that's what it took to win.
Oh, and one more thing. Suppose Young does go on to win a Super Bowl,
or even four of them. It still doesn't count. Why? Because Rice and
Taylor would never have been better than average receivers if they hadn't
learned it by catching all those passes Montana threw to them. Young
is only taking advantage of what the whole team learned from Montana.
And what do you think Ricky Watters was doing his rookie season when
he was out with injury? He was learning how to be great from the also
injured Montana, of course.
Sorry, I'm getting carried away here. If I've missed any other
obvious explanations please post them for all to enjoy.
For the humor impaired, I mean no disrespect to Montana. Not much,
anyway. :^)
--
Jay Lawlor jla...@ptdcs2.intel.com
Mailstop: AL4-57 Phone: (503) 642-8050 FAX: (503) 649-3996
==============================================================================
Daniel Banyas
Let's see - Steve's had one season as the starter and ended
up as the NFL MVP. Boy - you're right - he sure is overrated.
Regardless of Young - how can you possibly not list the MOST
overrated as Randall Cunningham! Outside of the yearly QB
rushing title - this stiff hasn't won a damn thing. EVER!
--
Danno - da...@is.morgan.com -
This .sig intentionally left blank.
Daniel Banyas
|>
|> I believe the following quarterbacks have never won a Super Bowl, though
|> I would bet that a good portion of them will end up in the Hall of Fame.
|>
|> John Elway
|> Dan Marino
|> Warren Moon
|> Fran Tarkenton
|> Jim Kelly
|> Danny White
|> Dan Fouts (Just inducted this year)
|> Ken Anderson
Elway - will never be in the Hall. Just take a look at his
career stats - sure - he is the finest clutch QB in history
(on shear numbers of comebacks) - but he wouldn't need
to stage combacks if he did better earlier in the games. And
don't any of you Broncos fans blame Reeves - I don't care.
Marino - Yes.
Tarkenton - Already in the Hall.
Moon, Kelly - Only if stats from other leagues count
White - Are you serious? Or was this tossed in to make us all
laugh?
Anderson - Maybe, but I doubt he'll ever make it.
Al Gore
What is this? Are you St. Joe's wife? :-)
Steve
Charles L. Spirrison
Kelly has had a fine career (but if I were Levy, I'd start Reich)
Kosar - His career, decent at best (of course he hasn't had much support...)
Vinny Testaverde - obviously did not meet expectations.
Steve Walsh - Cowboys essentially spent the #1 pick of the NFL draft on him,
managed to get some value for him from New Orleans, it would appear
that he lacks the arm strength needed....
Craig Erickson - only threw 26 passes during his rookie year, so may be too
soon to tell.
Gino Torretta - hasn't had much of a shot so far ....
Ya'll remember ALL of the HYPE about Miami being "Quarterback University"
(a couple of years ago)? I haven't heard that for a while.
-- -- The fact that 5 (6 if Gino makes it) Miami QBs HAVE jobs in the NFL
IS an impressive accomplishment, but, except for Kelly, none have
had particularly impressive careers (with all due respect to Kosar,
who hasn't had much support in recent years).
ALSO - where are all the people who, several years ago, projected
Jim Everett (Purdue) as a future Hall of Fame QB?
cls
JOHN HEIM
>Ok .. IMO.. the most overrated QB and this s only because he only has partial
>of one season under his belt ( Majik started 4 games) and is getting really
>really hyped in the magazines is:
>
>Brett Favre of Green Bay
>
>This is not a knock on Brett, I just think in takes more that one season to
>get mentioned in the same breaths a Marino, Elway and Montana..
Technically, this doesn't mean he's overrated. It means you don't
know how good he is. I mean, he could be better than Montana (or worse
than Randy Wright.)
Maybe he's the most too-often-rated QB. He shouldn't be rated at all
yet.
JGH
Phil Miller
: In article <24b5re$l...@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, Timothy Dry <t...@bvd.jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
: |>
: |> I believe the following quarterbacks have never won a Super Bowl, though
: |> I would bet that a good portion of them will end up in the Hall of Fame.
: |>
: |> John Elway
: Elway - will never be in the Hall. Just take a look at his
: career stats - sure - he is the finest clutch QB in history
: (on shear numbers of comebacks) - but he wouldn't need
: to stage combacks if he did better earlier in the games. And
: don't any of you Broncos fans blame Reeves - I don't care.
I can't imagine Elway not getting into the hall. He's made too
many memorable plays and has universal respect around the league
as a magician.
And compare the talent Elway has had around him to that Joe Montana
had with the Niners. Montana gets in the Hall for dropping
ten yard dumpers on slants to Jerry Rice while Elway gets his assed
chased all over the field by Howie Long before hitting a 40 yard bulls-
eye to the endzone with 0:00 on the clock.
philll
Jim Pak
(Charles L. Spirrison) writes:
>
>For a GROUP of over-rated QBs, I nominate the (recent) U. Miami QBs.
>Kelly has had a fine career (but if I were Levy, I'd start Reich)
>Kosar - His career, decent at best (of course he hasn't had much support...)
>Vinny Testaverde - obviously did not meet expectations.
>Steve Walsh - Cowboys essentially spent the #1 pick of the NFL draft on him,
> managed to get some value for him from New Orleans, it would appear
> that he lacks the arm strength needed....
>Craig Erickson - only threw 26 passes during his rookie year, so may be too
> soon to tell.
What's even stranger to me is that each Miami QB gets less impressive over
time, if you look at them from an NFL career standpoint.
To elaborate,
Kelly is clearly the class of the bunch; he's been to three Super Bowls.
Kosar, who came after Kelly, has never been to a SB, but at least he's
been to three AFC Championship games, which is more than I can say about...
Vinny, who's never been to a playoff game of any sort, but at least he was
an NFL starter for several years, which is more than I can say about...
Walsh, who has never been a starter for even one full year, but at least
he started a few games, which is more than I can say about...
Erickson, who's barely played in the NFL, but at least he's played, which
is more than I can say about...
Toretta, who'll probably be lucky to make an NFL team.
I shudder to think who this university will produce next. :-)
Gee, Brian Fortay was a genius to transfer. :-)
Jim
ASTR...@vma.cc.nd.edu
opinion that Brett Favre is the most overrated QB. He had a great year
last year, despite having to work behind a less than stellar offensive
line. Yes, any QB looks good with a target named Sterling Sharpe, but
remember, Brett got those passes to Sterling, despite the fact that
Sharpe is always double teamed. Sterling broke the single season record
for caught passes last year, a fact that many people forget. Those passes
didn't magically appear in Sharpe's hands. There's no radar in the ball.
My vote for Most Overrated QB....has to be...Jim McMahon.
I doubt he can stay upright long enough to make a difference for the Vikes,
and I still can't believe the Vikes have pinned so many hopes on him,
especially with the Qb's available to them through free agency and the draft.
Didn't they get Toretta?
Chezhd
Robert Michael Trotter
>Maybe I am biased, well...hell, yes I am...but I must disagree with the
>opinion that Brett Favre is the most overrated QB. He had a great year
>last year, despite having to work behind a less than stellar offensive
>line. Yes, any QB looks good with a target named Sterling Sharpe, but
>remember, Brett got those passes to Sterling, despite the fact that
>Sharpe is always double teamed. Sterling broke the single season record
>for caught passes last year, a fact that many people forget. Those passes
>didn't magically appear in Sharpe's hands. There's no radar in the ball.
hasnt been in the NFL enough to over or under rate him.
>
>My vote for Most Overrated QB....has to be...Jim McMahon.
>I doubt he can stay upright long enough to make a difference for the Vikes,
>and I still can't believe the Vikes have pinned so many hopes on him,
>especially with the Qb's available to them through free agency and the draft.
>Didn't they get Toretta?
You'd rather start Toretta over McMahon? Geez, I sure am glad you are
not the Vikes head coach. I doubt you can say McMahon is over rated
either, I dont think you have seen Vikings fans proclaiming McMahon
will lead us the the Super Bowl, in fact alot of Vikings fans dont
like McMahon, I for one like any QB who wins, I dont care who QB's
the Vikings, just as long as we win. Classifing McMahon as overrated
though is not very accurate....
Mark
GO VIKINGS!
--
Minnesota Vikings 11-5 NFC Central Division Champions 1992-93!
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Minnesota Machine 10-4 2nd Place AFFL Midwest Division
Floyd Goodrich
: What's even stranger to me is that each Miami QB gets less impressive over
: time, if you look at them from an NFL career standpoint.
: To elaborate,
: Kelly is clearly the class of the bunch; he's been to three Super Bowls.
: Kosar, who came after Kelly, has never been to a SB, but at least he's
: been to three AFC Championship games, which is more than I can say about...
: Vinny, who's never been to a playoff game of any sort, but at least he was
: an NFL starter for several years, which is more than I can say about...
: Walsh, who has never been a starter for even one full year, but at least
: he started a few games, which is more than I can say about...
: Erickson, who's barely played in the NFL, but at least he's played, which
: is more than I can say about...
: Toretta, who'll probably be lucky to make an NFL team.
Jim
Surely you realize that you have simply listed the QBs in chronological order.
More or less that is. So it's hardly surprising that Kelly has accomplished
more than Kosar who has accomplished .....
Question for you: who was the last Miami QB NOT to make the pros?
--
Floyd Goodrich
flo...@oakhill.sps.mot.com
Paul_K
>
> My vote for Most Overrated QB....has to be...Jim McMahon.
> I doubt he can stay upright long enough to make a difference for the Vikes,
> and I still can't believe the Vikes have pinned so many hopes on him,
> especially with the Qb's available to them through free agency and the draft.
> Didn't they get Toretta?
>
Chezhd
How long have you been watching football? Let me say right off that I realize
that McMahon has a good chance of getting injured, that is his main problem,
but barring this he is great.
I'll never forget when he was at Chicago and was out with another injury,
finally near the end of the game he convinced them to put him in, and with a
coupla plays he had thrown a bomb for a touchdown and caught a diving catch for
another. Needless to say they won.....
I guess my point is that he may not be worth all those "hopes" but he has
certainly a higher chance of performing then another less proven player, if he
stays healthy.
"admitted BYU alumni fan"
--
Paul K.
Satish Nair
csc...@richfree.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
>
>In defense of Cunningham:
>
>Besides his horrible
>release and lack of patience, the guy would have won the 1990 MVP had
>it not been for the greatest QB in the history of this earth to exist
>at the same time.
Umm... hey Ian... you might want to check back on this. Cunningham
DID win league MVP back in 1990. Didn't do much in the playoffs though.
>Cunningham's numbers in 1990 were better than Young's in '92.
Not as far as passing goes. Young had a higher completion percentage and
a lower interception percentage. Young's rating was 107 or so?
Cunningham's was only 91.6 in 1990, slightly ahead of St. Joe.
Phil Simms had the highest rating of 1990 (92.7)
satish nair
giants
Jim Pak
(Floyd Goodrich) writes:
>Jim Pak (jp...@what.sps.mot.com) wrote:
>>[Each U of M QB accomplished less than his predecessor]
>
>Surely you realize that you have simply listed the QBs in chronological order.
>More or less that is. So it's hardly surprising that Kelly has accomplished
>more than Kosar who has accomplished .....
Hi Floyd,
Hmm, I was kind of anticipating this argument.
For the guys who have really not been in the pros long enough to have shown
anything (specifically, Walsh, Erickson, and Toretta), your argument makes
sense. But Kelly, Kosar, and Testaverde have been in the pros "long enough."
You can't tell me that Kelly has accomplished more than Kosar or Testaverde
simply because he's been a pro longer. (Kelly could have stunk, you know.)
And in fact, Kelly had those years in the bush-league USFL to "delay" his
NFL progress. Nope, Kelly is better than Kosar and Testaverde simply because
he's better. Same with the Bernie vs Vinnie argument. Vinnie had plenty of
years at TB to prove himself.
To make my point a little clearer, look at the string of BYU QB's from Marc
Wilson to Jim McMahon to Steve Young to Robbie Bosco(??) to Ty Detmer(??).
Clearly, Wilson is *not* the most accomplished of the lot. Both McMahon and
Young have outshined him, and it didn't take McMahon that long to do it. And
Young may yet have a better career than McMahon.
>Question for you: who was the last Miami QB NOT to make the pros?
My guess would be the guy before Kelly. But I have no idea who that is.
Jim
ALN
> In article <1993Aug11....@richfree.vcu.edu>
> csc...@richfree.vcu.edu (Ian M. Derby) writes:
> >
Former Giant traded to Raiders.
Hows he doing over in Raider country?
:-) Giants in 93!
Adriene
Mike Kleszynski
It's probably true; McMahon won't make it through the whole season for
the VIKINGS but I don't really believe he's over-rated. In fact I havn't
heard anybody saying much more than "If he can stay healthy..." or "I hope
he can stay healthy...". I don't believe they're saying this because they
think he can lead the VIKINGS to the big show. I think they're ( they being
VIKE fans and inside football types ) saying this because the VIKES don't
have much left in the way of quarterbacks after McMahon.
I think the VIKINGS got McMahon to be a leader, because he knows what it
takes to win it all. He will be a great asset when it comes to teaching
the younger guys and inspiering(sp) some of the vets. And hey, If he does
stay healthy he can do an effective job at QB.
Those are my opinions; maybe some of the VIKE fans can let us know what they
think of McMahon. I know you all hated him when he was in Chicago; but being
a bears fan, I have to defend the guy who helped the BEARS win it all in
'85!
My vote for most over-rated QB: Jeff George. I don't think an explanation is
necessary.
mikek
GO BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|>
|> Chezhd
--
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
| Mike Kleszynski | "When you hear, 'Tax the rich' |
+-------------------------------+ Mr. and Mrs. America: Watch |
| mi...@monolith.bellcore.com | your wallets." G. Bush '92 |
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
| Bell Communications Research | |
| RRC4D-152 | I speak for myself and no |
| 444 HOES LANE | one else! |
| PISCATAWAY, NJ 08854 | |
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
BadSpeller!
>My vote for Most Overrated QB....has to be...Jim McMahon.
>I doubt he can stay upright long enough to make a difference for the Vikes,
>and I still can't believe the Vikes have pinned so many hopes on him,
>especially with the Qb's available to them through free agency and the draft.
>Didn't they get Toretta?
>
> Chezhd
I think you miss the point of McMahon. While it is true that he
probably will not make it to the vikings first bye week, he is an good NFL
QB when he is healthy. If you could get him in a rotation with another QB,
example let McMahon start when you really need a win or against a team
that is really good, and start another QB ( Gannon) against weaker teams
and when you want to save McMahon. I really don't think anyone will go
for this but it would help the team out, and you could, concivablely, win
a couple more games.
--
Luke
"I don't feel so good."
Last words of Luther Burbank
Floyd Goodrich
: In article <CBnFw...@oakhill.sps.mot.com> floydg%oak...@sps.mot.com
: (Floyd Goodrich) writes:
: Hi Floyd,
: Hmm, I was kind of anticipating this argument.
It was not intended as an argument but an "interesting observation."
: For the guys who have really not been in the pros long enough to have shown
: anything (specifically, Walsh, Erickson, and Toretta), your argument makes
: sense. But Kelly, Kosar, and Testaverde have been in the pros "long enough."
: You can't tell me that Kelly has accomplished more than Kosar or Testaverde
: simply because he's been a pro longer. (Kelly could have stunk, you know.)
: And in fact, Kelly had those years in the bush-league USFL to "delay" his
: NFL progress. Nope, Kelly is better than Kosar and Testaverde simply because
: he's better. Same with the Bernie vs Vinnie argument. Vinnie had plenty of
: years at TB to prove himself.
Sure. I guess I should have made the point more clearly: half of
your list is really irrelevant to the point you want to make. The overall
trend and implied conclusion was obviously biased by experience. I do like
the point you make, BTW.
FWIW, Testaverde was with a team which would not have made the playoffs
regardless of how well he played (MHO). In other words, he has not
accomplished much (proven himself); some of that was his own fault but
some was beyond his control.
: To make my point a little clearer, look at the string of BYU QB's from Marc
: Wilson to Jim McMahon to Steve Young to Robbie Bosco(??) to Ty Detmer(??).
: Clearly, Wilson is *not* the most accomplished of the lot. Both McMahon and
: Young have outshined him, and it didn't take McMahon that long to do it. And
: Young may yet have a better career than McMahon.
No, but Wilson has had a wacky career any way you look at it. The rest of
these coincidentally fall into the same type of pattern that the Miami QBs do.
(We could quibble on Young vs. McMahon.)
: >Question for you: who was the last Miami QB NOT to make the pros?
: My guess would be the guy before Kelly. But I have no idea who that is.
I have no idea who it is either. But in case your point had been that although
Miami is known as QB U, they really haven't produced much, I think it's
interesting that all their QBs for 10 years have been drafted and made
pro teams (jury still out this year).
Of course, we could always use your list to prove Jimmy Johnson is a
genius. :-)
--
Floyd Goodrich
flo...@oakhill.sps.mot.com
mohan.sekhar
trying to provide humour on the net, I have a simple statement to make:
==> Steve Young REPLACED Montana on the basis that HE IS A BETTER QB than
Montana .....
The NUMBERS have proved otherwise .... Two years without Montana, the SF 49ers
led by Young have NOT, I REPEAT NOT WON A SUPER BOWL.
Until Young wins a Super Bowl, it goes without saying that:
==> The SF 49ers made a BIG mistake in letting Montana go and keeping
a fairly older "Young" as his replacement at a higer salary !
Until somebody contradicts me with valid facts:
==> Young led NFL in Interceptions and Fumbles in the post-season games
(play-offs, Conference Championships, Super Bowl, Pro-Bowl Games)
*** losing to the young and inexperienced Cowboys at home in an NFC
championship game !!!! ONLY Young could do it ........
Mohan
ricardo.g.irvin
>
>: What does Steve Young have to do to satisfy people like you? Unless he wins
>
>Wasn't it Roger Craig's fumble in the Conference Championship in
>1991 that kept Steve Young from starting in a Super Bowl? It wasn't
>Young's fault.
It was'nt Roger Craig's fault. It was some guys name Erik Howard (noseTackle)
and some guy name Lawrence Taylor that kept Steve Young from being the
Super Bowl MVP, ...if I'm not mistaken 8{D.
RIC. IRVIN
AT&T BELL LABORATORIES.
"TOUCHDOWN !!!! ... just kidding Dad! " my son at 18 months.
"In football, good hitting usually beats good pitching."
"... Lawrence Taylor was all over him... like syrup on pancakes." John Madden.
"...This Game is being broadcast in stereo..." Pat Summerall.
"...What does spit sound like in stereo? " John Madden.
PEACE.
Jay Lawlor ~
Mohan> To all netters who don't agree to the subject heading and who have been
Mohan> trying to provide humour on the net, I have a simple statement to make:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So I guess you're referring to my sarcastic tribute to Montana.
Actually, I've had several compliments on it. This is the first
indication that somebody didn't like it. :^)
Mohan> => Steve Young REPLACED Montana on the basis that HE IS A BETTER QB than
Mohan> Montana .....
Who is claiming that? More likely, Young replaced Montana because
Montana is now a big question mark. Can he really last a whole
season? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure he'll have a great season if he
lasts.
One thing I'm wondering about, though. That really should have been a
TD pass in tonight's game. Why didn't the guy (was it the tight end?)
make the effort to get in the endzone and get some points for Montana?
I thought we only had to fall back on lame excuses like "It's a team
sport. The QB can't do it by himself." for people like Young, Kelly,
Elway, and other QBs who haven't won a superbowl. I mean, that pass
was from MONTANA. It should have been an AUTOMATIC touchdown. There
should be no need for effort by other teammates.
Mohan> ==> Young led NFL in Interceptions and Fumbles in the post-season games
Mohan> (play-offs, Conference Championships, Super Bowl, Pro-Bowl Games)
Mohan>
Mohan> *** losing to the young and inexperienced Cowboys at home in an NFC
Mohan> championship game !!!! ONLY Young could do it ........
So young and inexperienced that they won the superbowl. You make it
sound as if any old QB could have beaten Dallas last year. So why
didn't they? How did Dallas even get to the playoffs anyway? There
should be a rule against young and inexperienced teams being able to
improve so much in that short a time.
P.S. to Chiefs fans: I think I only saw the Chiefs once last year, so
I didn't realize how true your complaints about Krieg were. If
Montana stays healthy your receivers should enjoy catching passes that
they don't have to dive all over the field for.
Floyd Goodrich
: ==> Steve Young REPLACED Montana on the basis that HE IS A BETTER QB than
: Montana .....
It didn't also have something to do with the fact that Montana was injured
for 2 years in a row, did it?
: The NUMBERS have proved otherwise .... Two years without Montana, the SF 49ers
: led by Young have NOT, I REPEAT NOT WON A SUPER BOWL.
And the year before that, they did not win a Super Bowl with Joe.
In fact, SF has failed to win more Super Bowls with Montana than they have
with Young.
: Until Young wins a Super Bowl, it goes without saying that:
Then why are you saying it?
: ==> The SF 49ers made a BIG mistake in letting Montana go and keeping
: a fairly older "Young" as his replacement at a higer salary !
No, it still remains to be seen whether they made a mistake or not. And
even if it turns out they did make a mistake, that is not a guarantee that
SF would have won the SB last year or would win it this year with Montana.
: Until somebody contradicts me with valid facts:
Do you bother to read this newsgroup or just post baseless articles?
Over two dozen people have contradicted you with valid facts. You have not
replied to any of their articles; you have not provided any rebuttle of facts
presented against your inane argument. Your argument has consisted of simply
the fact that the 49ers did not win the Super Bowl in Young's first full season
as a starter and somehow that is all Steve Young's fault.
: ==> Young led NFL in Interceptions and Fumbles in the post-season games
: (play-offs, Conference Championships, Super Bowl, Pro-Bowl Games)
The Pro-Bowl means nothing; how on earth can you include that in anyone's
post-season stats? Not counting the Pro-Bowl, Young most certainly did NOT
lead the NFL in INTs in the post-season.
And Young was far and away the best QB during the regular season.
: *** losing to the young and inexperienced Cowboys at home in an NFC
: championship game !!!! ONLY Young could do it ........
Absolute nonsense: 16 games were lost to Dallas last year. Dallas was the
best team in the NFL; they had the best defense in the NFL. They played their
best and barely won a close game against San Francisco. Steve Young did not
lose the game to Dallas; the 49ers lost the game to Dallas. Young played
reasobably well, completing 60% of his passes despite bad weather and facing
the best defense in the NFL. Don't blame Steve Young simply because the 49ers
defense let Dallas roll up over 400 yards in offense including huge plays when
the game was on the line.
Come up with something new, will ya?
--
Floyd Goodrich
flo...@oakhill.sps.mot.com
mohan.sekhar
:a Super Bowl, he's a bum, right? (And then, after he wins one, the tune will
:change to "until he wins four, like Joe, he's still a bum"). There are plenty
:of other QBs who have never won a Super Bowl, and lots of QBs who have never
:even made the playoffs; why aren't you ripping those guys to pieces, too?
:
:=============================================================================
:Bob Marshall \\ If 10% is good enough for Jesus,
:=============================================================================
Its not a question of satisfying people like me .....
I think its UNFAIR for somebody to lose his job because of an INJURY and on top
of it not even given a fair chance to get his job back. This is exactly what
happened to Joe Montana the GREATEST QB NFL has seen to day. I think Steve
Young is an over-rated QB but it does not mean he is a bad QB. In fact he is
one of the GOOD regular season QBs, but so are Moon, Cunningham, Hebert,
Kelly, etc., etc.
Steve Young REPLACED Joe Montana, meaning he is better than Montana.
Steve Young's post-season numbers are at best mediocre when you compare that
to the person he succeeded. NFL is all about POST-SEASON and NOT REGULAR
season.
*** Montana's Super Bowl Record: 3 MVPs, 68% passing, 11 TDs and 0 INTS.
& HE LOST HIS JOB TO YOUNG ...... & WAS NOT EVEN GIVEN A CHANCE.....
Mohan
Jeff Martens
[ ... ]
>I think its UNFAIR for somebody to lose his job because of an INJURY and on top
>of it not even given a fair chance to get his job back. This is exactly what
>happened to Joe Montana the GREATEST QB NFL has seen to day. I think Steve
>Young is an over-rated QB but it does not mean he is a bad QB. In fact he is
>one of the GOOD regular season QBs, but so are Moon, Cunningham, Hebert,
>Kelly, etc., etc.
And Friesz should get his job back from Humphries in SD? And the
Packers should've given Majkowski's job back to him after his
ankle healed last year, regardless of how well Favre was playing
at the time?
In an earlier post, Mohan was bemoaning the fact that the 49ers
lost to the Cowboys in the playoffs last year. He blamed this on
Young, who had a pretty good game, rather on the 49er defense
which was highly permeable at the time. He seemed to think that
Montana would've single-handedly won that game for the Niners,
regardless of the fact that football is a team sport and the
Cowboys clearly had the better team.
Now he's whining that St. Joe didn't get a chance to win back his
starting job with the Niners after coming back from injury.
Mohan, wake up. If a team has a QB controversy, and it's clear
that the team is better off dumping one of its QBs, often the
team will try to get rid of one or the other. This does not mean
that the player traded has been wronged.
I could never figure out why anyone in SF would've wanted to keep
Montana over Young. The past few years Young has played very
well, and Montana hasn't even been healthy enough to suit up.
They got quite a bit for Montana from the Chiefs considering there
was no reason to believe that St. Joe has even one good season
left in him. Did you want the 49ers to keep a possibly washed-up
player whose best years are behind him, or a top-notch QB that
should be fine for the next few years at least?
>Steve Young REPLACED Joe Montana, meaning he is better than Montana.
Here Mohan is having second thoughts. OK, Young is better than
Montana after all. I agree: right now, Young is the better QB.
A few years ago, Montana was better.
>Steve Young's post-season numbers are at best mediocre when you compare that
>to the person he succeeded. NFL is all about POST-SEASON and NOT REGULAR
>season.
Sounds like a fair-weather fan that'll jump ship as soon as the
49ers stop making the playoffs every year. With Montana and Bono
rather than Young and Bono, there's a definite chance that the
49ers wouldn't even be good enough to make the playoffs. With
Young playing most of the year, they likely will.
>*** Montana's Super Bowl Record: 3 MVPs, 68% passing, 11 TDs and 0 INTS.
> & HE LOST HIS JOB TO YOUNG ...... & WAS NOT EVEN GIVEN A CHANCE.....
Ancient history. How long ago was this? What makes you think the
49ers didn't give Montana a chance? They've seen quite a bit of
Montana and Young side-by-side, and they've seen all of Montana's
medical reports.
--
-- Jeff (mar...@cis.ohio-state.edu)
Jack Yee-Chieh Chu
[stuff about U. of Miami QBs deleted]
>Ya'll remember ALL of the HYPE about Miami being "Quarterback University"
>(a couple of years ago)? I haven't heard that for a while.
>-- -- The fact that 5 (6 if Gino makes it) Miami QBs HAVE jobs in the NFL
> IS an impressive accomplishment, but, except for Kelly, none have
> had particularly impressive careers (with all due respect to Kosar,
> who hasn't had much support in recent years).
Actually, another U. of M has been quite proficient in whipping out NFL QBs
(even if not *starting* QBs) -- the University of Maryland. I think they also
have 5, if my memory serves me correctly:
1) Boomer Esiason - NYJ
2) Neil O'Donnell - PIT
3) Stan Gelbaugh - SEA?
4) Frank Reich - BUF
5) Scott Zolak - NE
There might have been one more but I'm not sure.
Jack
Indiana Jones
Jack Yee-Chieh Chu <jac...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>In article <cls4.74...@Isis.MsState.Edu> cl...@Isis.MsState.Edu (Charles L. Spirrison) writes:
>[stuff about U. of Miami QBs deleted]
>
>Actually, another U. of M has been quite proficient in whipping out NFL QBs
>(even if not *starting* QBs) -- the University of Maryland. I think they also
>have 5, if my memory serves me correctly:
>1) Boomer Esiason - NYJ
>2) Neil O'Donnell - PIT
>3) Stan Gelbaugh - SEA?
>4) Frank Reich - BUF
>5) Scott Zolak - NE
I believe the University of Washington has a fair number of QB's in the
pros, including two rookies this year. Others are Cary Conklin, Hugh Millen,
Chris Chandler (plus the rookies Brunell and Hobert). Oh, and I almost
forgot the most impressive one of all... Warren Moon. So that's one
Pro Bowler, three pretty decent to good backups, and two promising young
rookies. Looks like UW is the place to go if you wanna be a pro QB, eh?
Did I forget anyone?
Max
Jack Yee-Chieh Chu
>I think its UNFAIR for somebody to lose his job because of an INJURY and on top
>of it not even given a fair chance to get his job back. This is exactly what
>happened to Joe Montana the GREATEST QB NFL has seen to day. I think Steve
>Young is an over-rated QB but it does not mean he is a bad QB. In fact he is
>one of the GOOD regular season QBs, but so are Moon, Cunningham, Hebert,
>Kelly, etc., etc.
>
>Steve Young REPLACED Joe Montana, meaning he is better than Montana.
>Steve Young's post-season numbers are at best mediocre when you compare that
>to the person he succeeded. NFL is all about POST-SEASON and NOT REGULAR
>season.
>
>*** Montana's Super Bowl Record: 3 MVPs, 68% passing, 11 TDs and 0 INTS.
> & HE LOST HIS JOB TO YOUNG ...... & WAS NOT EVEN GIVEN A CHANCE.....
>
>Mohan
Funny how you give Montana's *Super Bowl* stats, and not his playoff stats. It
would be kinda hard for Young to have better SB stats, considering that he's
never played in one! Don't forget, Montana hasn't been perfect in the playoffs
either! There was the 24-21 loss to the Skins in 1983-4, the mid-80's fiascos
against the Giants (one of them was 49-3), the choke against the Vikings in
1987-8, and the choke against the Giants in 1990-1 (No, you CAN'T blame that
on Young -- maybe the punt "return" team and Roger Craig).
It is very...I mean VERY debatable that Montana today is better than Young.
Several years ago? No doubt Montana was better. But at age 37 (or is it 38?)
Montana is definitely a mere shadow of his former godly self. He's done 49ers
fans great services but let's give Young a chance. Don't forget, he's only
had a year and a half as the undisputed starter. Give him some time.
By the way I am a 49ers fan, so I'm not flaming Montana in the first paragraph.
Jack
Gary Bourque
In article <1993Aug13.1...@leland.Stanford.EDU>, jac...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Jack Yee-Chieh Chu) writes:
> In article <CBpB...@cbfsb.cb.att.com> moh...@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mohan.sekhar) writes:
>
> But at age 37 (or is it 38?) Montana is definitely a mere shadow of his former
> godly self.
>
I don't think this has been shown yet. Montana deserves a stretch of games (at least
ten) where he is not hurt or replaced, and then we can decide. Personally, I think
he is going to suprise some people, *if* his elbow holds up.
--Gary
mohan.sekhar
:
:>Steve Young's post-season numbers are at best mediocre when you compare that
:>to the person he succeeded. NFL is all about POST-SEASON and NOT REGULAR
:>season.
:Sounds like a fair-weather fan that'll jump ship as soon as the
:49ers stop making the playoffs every year. With Montana and Bono
:rather than Young and Bono, there's a definite chance that the
:49ers wouldn't even be good enough to make the playoffs. With
:Young playing most of the year, they likely will.
==> Bono played very well in 1991 and everybody (majority) on the SF team
wanted Bono to start instead of Young when the season started last year.
So much for Young's talent, his own team-mates don't recognize it !
==> When SF tried to trade Young end of 1991 season, NOBODY was that
interested - A 1st round pick was not even offered !
==> Young's trade value obviously went up after 1992 season and the 49ers
could have definitely suckered a team like New England or Seatle
to give up their 1st round pick in exchange. Probably they would have
given up even more. They could have drafted a Bledsoe or a Mirer, started
Montana this season with a able backup in Bono and the future looking
good. Instead they have no future, a "older" young who chokes in
post-season play with Bono as back up.
==> For a team which won four rings in ten years JUST making it
to play-offs under Young IS NOT ENOUGH ....
:>*** Montana's Super Bowl Record: 3 MVPs, 68% passing, 11 TDs and 0 INTS.
:> & HE LOST HIS JOB TO YOUNG ...... & WAS NOT EVEN GIVEN A CHANCE.....
:
:Ancient history. How long ago was this? What makes you think the
:49ers didn't give Montana a chance? They've seen quite a bit of
:Montana and Young side-by-side, and they've seen all of Montana's
:medical reports.
:
: -- Jeff (mar...@cis.ohio-state.edu)
==> Ancient history ! This is the best you could come up with !!!!
Where did they see enough of Montana ???? In your living room or
in the locker room ????
If NFL is all about just seeing people and their medical reports
we would NEVER have seen Montana win his last two super bowls,
or a Thurman Thomas playing in the NFL or Garrison Hearst even drafted !
Mohan
Spencer Graf
any college ever sent two rookie quarterbacks to the NFL in the same season?
Currently, U. of Washington has Mark Brunell (Green Bay) and Billy Joe Hobert
(Raiders) as rookie QBs.
If Brunell and Hobert both make it, which looks like a good possibility,
that makes five former Huskies in the NFL by my calculations, along with
Warren Moon, Chris Chandler, and Hugh Millen.
Kevin Cruz
Some people get UM (U of Maryland) and UM (U of Miami) mixed up and think that
U of Miami is the team that produces the most QBs. WRONG!! That's right fellas!
Maryland : 6 QBs in the NFL
Miami : 5 Qbs in the NFL
--Kevin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Cruz E-mail: ke...@american.edu
Computer Science Dept. Phone: (202) 885-2767
The American University
Washington, D.C.
lav...@aardvark.lerc.nasa.gov
>Ancient history. How long ago was this? What makes you think the
>49ers didn't give Montana a chance? They've seen quite a bit of
>Montana and Young side-by-side, and they've seen all of Montana's
>medical reports.
>
Agreed, I am a Niners fan and that is what pisses me off about
the Montana worshipers. The 49er staff saw both of these guys
every day. These people are professional football people. In there
opinion Young was a better QB at the time. Now all these people
with quite a bit less football knowledge who have seen Montana
play 30 minutes in two years are complaining what a mistake they made?
Get a clue, dumping Montana was the best descision for the 9ers
Go Bruins!!!!! __ __ ________ __ ___
Tom Lavelle /\_\ /\_\ /_______/\ /\_\ /\__\
(Pvt. Cheeseburger) / / / / / / \ _____\/ / / / / / _ \
/ / /__/ / / \ \ \______ / / /___ / / /_\ \
NASA LeRC / / /___\/ / \ \/_____/\ / / /_____\ / / ___ \
(216) 977-7042 \/_______ / \_______\/ \/________/ \/__/ \__\
lav...@aardvark.lerc.nasa.gov
Ben Torrance
>==> Young's trade value obviously went up after 1992 season and the 49ers
> could have definitely suckered a team like New England or Seatle
> to give up their 1st round pick in exchange. Probably they would have
> given up even more. They could have drafted a Bledsoe or a Mirer, started
> Montana this season with a able backup in Bono and the future looking
> good. Instead they have no future, a "older" young who chokes in
> post-season play with Bono as back up.
The Boston Globe (specifically Will McDonough) repeatedly reported that
the niners actually did try to trade for the patriots' #1 in order to take
Mirer, since Walsh seemed to think quite a bit of him, and Walsh still
commands a lot of respect in the orgnization. I don't remember if it was
Young straight up, or even if it was Young at all-- Parcells didn't go for
it either way.
ben
Jack Yee-Chieh Chu
>
>I don't think this has been shown yet. Montana deserves a stretch of games (at least
>ten) where he is not hurt or replaced, and then we can decide. Personally, I think
>he is going to suprise some people, *if* his elbow holds up.
I want Joe to do as well as anyone else, but the fact of the matter is -- while
he might still be among the top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL, I'd say the odds of
him matching or outdoing his previous accomplishments are very, very slim. His
established standard of performance is way too high to reach.
Not to mention that playing on artificial turf and being protected by arguably
a weaker offensive line are not going to help either. I sincerely hope he gets
to the Super Bowl but if they're playing the 49ers, my support for the Chiefs
will end.
Jack
Leo James
The last U. of M. QB to fail in the pros was Geoff Toretta, I believe.
Geoff backed up Vinny and got some tryouts but never stuck. Geoff is
Gino's older brother.
--
+-------- all --------+------- rights --------+------- reserved ------+
|Leopold E. James | "A heart, a soul, AND | AT&T Paradyne |
|ph: (813) 530-8425 | a mind are terrible | P.O. Box 2826, LG-132,|
|l...@pdn.paradyne.com | things to waste." | Largo, FL 34649 (USA) |
ASTR...@vma.cc.nd.edu
being over rated would get a rise out of him. (not literally, Mark...) I
have been trapped around Bear fans since 1985, I've seen McMahon every
week that he was with them, and I never thought that he was as good as
he thought he was. When the Pack tried him out a couple of years ago,
I cringed. I didn't mean that they should start Toretta, he obviously
needs seasoning. It was just meant that there was lots to pick from
this year, and McMahon didn't seem like the savior. Hostetler was a FA
this year. From what I read, the Vikes projected them as the starter as
soon as he was signed. I can't imagine that there wasn't anyone else
in camp that could have given him a run for his position.
Anita
ASTR...@vma.cc.nd.edu
older brother? I know he was a backup before Gino got to Miami. I just
forgot his first name.
Jeff Martens
[ ... ]
>have been trapped around Bear fans since 1985, I've seen McMahon every
>week that he was with them, and I never thought that he was as good as
>he thought he was. When the Pack tried him out a couple of years ago,
Well, McMahon was a pretty good QB in his time. I remember the
first time I saw him play. The Bears had suffered through years
of terrible QBs (Jack Concannon, Bobby Douglas, Vince Evans,
Virgil Carter), and suddenly it looked like they had someone who
could play the position. I remember a definite sinking feeling in
the pit of my stomach. With a QB, the Bears were suddenly a much
better team.
It remains to be seen how far over the hill McMahon is, and
whether he can stay healthy for a significant portion of the
season. If he plays all year and plays well, the NFC Central
could be a very interesting division.
My bet: He's a mild improvement over Salisbury/Gannon, but misses
over half the year. We'll see.
--
Save plastic: make all your transparencies double-sided.
-- Jeff (mar...@cis.ohio-state.edu)
Eric C. Bennett
He was not traded to the Raiders. The Raiders signed him as a free agent.
Cheers,
Eric
--
Internet: er...@abode.ttank.com
uucp: elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wvus!abode!eric
Raghuram Thiagarajan
FSU - 1992 draft.
Casey Weldon - Eagles
Brad Johnson - Vikings
--
Hullo !
N.B. Hedd
>And Friesz should get his job back from Humphries in SD? And the
>Packers should've given Majkowski's job back to him after his
>ankle healed last year, regardless of how well Favre was playing
>at the time?
It is specious in the extreme to compare the above situations to the
Young/Montana snafu. In the above cases, an inferior quarterback lost
his job to injury and was replaced by a superior quarterback; in such
cases, it would be insane to give the starting job to the now-recovered
lesser player.
But for your logic to hold up in the Young/Montana situation, you'd have
to be willing to state that the recovered Montana is a worse quarterback
than Young. Are you willing to make that statement? Because I sure as hell
don't agree with it. Montana is as good as ever, and in any case is certainly
better than Young at his best. So not giving the job back to Montana is
just stupid, as the 9ers will justifiably discover this season.
>Sounds like a fair-weather fan that'll jump ship as soon as the
>49ers stop making the playoffs every year.
And quite rightfully so. After the way the 9ers fucked up with
Montana, the only joy I derive from watching them is in seeing Young
screw up. At least that has a certainly poetic justice.
>>*** Montana's Super Bowl Record: 3 MVPs, 68% passing, 11 TDs and 0 INTS.
>> & HE LOST HIS JOB TO YOUNG ...... & WAS NOT EVEN GIVEN A CHANCE.....
>Ancient history.
I'd find this "ancient history" theory a lot easier to swallow if Montana
wasn't all suited up and healthy, albeit playing with a different team. It's
generally considered good form to wait until someone is dead before burying
them.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Young sucks: GO BONO!
Anthony Lunato
Kosar (I hope lightning doesn't straike me :) ). I mean how has he fooled all
the NFL announcers into to thinking he's one of the greatest/smartest QB in the
league presently? Granted some of the blame must be put on the pathetic O-line
he's had but when I can't remember the last time I saw him throw a tight
spiral. His awkward throwing motion causes a good percentage of his passes to
be batted down and if pressured he can't run worth *%$@. My dad has been
telling me this for the past couple of years and now I think I agree. Can some
one out there restore my faith in Bernie? Am I right or wrong? Sorry Bernie:(
Tony Lou
ASTR...@vma.cc.nd.edu
he's back in the Central division. When he played for the Bears, there
wasn't much to worry about. Now the Central is a little less of a patsy
division. Mc Mahon will have to worry about the following men doing the
slam dance on his fragile body...Pat Swilling (Lions), Reggie White, Bill
Maas and Tony Bennett (Packers) Santana Dotson and Keith Mc Cants (Bucs)
and the aging, but still a force, Richard Dent (Bears) It will be interesting
to see if he can hold up the first time one of these bad boys nails him.
Anita
Jerry Tomko
Before I defend Kosar, let me say that most people (well...most people
outside Cleveland) see Kosar for what he is.
If your dad has been telling you this for the past couple of years, he's
probably right because Kosar has spent quite a bit of time nursing
knees, elbows, and fingers. If he was telling you this in 1986, 87
and 88, he's probably misguided.
Don't be fooled by Kosar's stance, release, or poor scrambling
ability. Take a look at his numbers. Other than those
years that he has been injured, Kosar has consistently been among
the top five QB's in the AFC (even in off years). He's consistently
made over 60% of his passes. He's consistently been among the
least intercepted QB's. And, he's consistently been able to
save games with under 2 minutes remaining. And, without Kosar,
we wouldn't have consistently missed the Super Bowl by one game 3 times
in 4 years.
Mike Kleszynski
I don't think it was completly a question of Young being better than Montana.
The 49er's have an abundance of quarterback talent. They were most likly
looking for some young talent at other positions to help them get back to the
superbowl. I don't know what they got for Montana ( maybe someone could
fill that in ) but it couldn't have been that bad of a deal. You got a guy
named Montana that alot of teams in the league would kill for and you have two
capable QB's after him; oh and one of them just happened to win the MVP
last year.
I don't know, but to me it seems like no branier. It's a team sport as Dallas
knows. One man can't win the superbowl. Dallas had Walker; really the whole team
at one point. Traded him and got a million nuber 1's and 2's over the next
few years and put together a superbowl team.
The 49er's arn't nearly as bad as Dallas was but they need a few players to get
back to being great. Even if they got nothing for Montana they reduced their
payroll significantly and can afford to pay for some quality players in the
future.
Maybe Montana will have better numbers than Young this year; maybe he won't.
But a quarter backs numbers are partly due to the people around him; and
let's be honest, Young has proven he can do the job and run the 49er's
offense.
mikek
GO BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
| Mike Kleszynski | "When you hear, 'Tax the rich' |
+-------------------------------+ Mr. and Mrs. America: Watch |
| mi...@monolith.bellcore.com | your wallets." G. Bush '92 |
+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
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+-------------------------------+--------------------------------+
M Moozoun
|> In article <CBwpt...@cerc.wvu.edu>, moo...@ece.wvu.wvnet.edu (Mohammad Moozoun) writes:
|> >In article <24ong7...@ua.d.umn.edu>, rvai...@ua.d.umn.edu (rajiv vaidyanathan) writes:
|> >|> Talking about schools sending QBs to the NFL, what about Washington State?
|> >|> Off the top of my head, I can think of
|> >|> Jack Thompson (ok, ok, that was years ago)
|> >|> Timm Rosenbach
|> >|> Mark Rypien
|> >|> Drew Bledsoe
|> >|>
|> >|> any others?
|> >
|> >I think Pennsylvania would qualify, The ones I can think of are
|> >
|> >Joe Montana
|> >Dan Marino
|> >Jeff Hostetler
|> >
|> >I am sure there are others too..
|>
|>
|> i thought Hostetler was from W.Virginia?
|> Satish, any Giant fan to clarify?
|>
|>
You are right, Jeff went to highschool in Penn. and attended
Penn state for one year and then transfered to W.V.
Wayne Murray
(Jay Lawlor ~) writes:
> >>>>> On Wed, 11 Aug 1993 15:34:33 GMT, de...@netcom.com (Dean Samos) said:
>
> Dean> Wasn't it Roger Craig's fumble in the Conference Championship in
> Dean> 1991 that kept Steve Young from starting in a Super Bowl? It wasn't
> Dean> Young's fault.
>
> Sorry, that doesn't count. Montana would have known that Craig was
> going to fumble and would have "willed" the ball back into his hands.
>
> And just suppose that Craig hadn't fumbled and that they won that game
> and then managed to win the superbowl. It still wouldn't count because
> Montana was the one who got them to the conference championship.
> Anybody can come in and be a 1-day-wonder but you have to be
> consistently great to even get to the championship.
>
> And it also doesn't count if you have the consistency all season and
> get to the conference championship but lose a fairly close game to
> a great team which goes on to blow out its opponent in the Super Bowl.
> Montana would have played offense, defense, and been the field goal
> kicker if that's what it took to win.
>
> Oh, and one more thing. Suppose Young does go on to win a Super Bowl,
> or even four of them. It still doesn't count. Why? Because Rice and
> Taylor would never have been better than average receivers if they hadn't
> learned it by catching all those passes Montana threw to them. Young
> is only taking advantage of what the whole team learned from Montana.
>
> And what do you think Ricky Watters was doing his rookie season when
> he was out with injury? He was learning how to be great from the also
> injured Montana, of course.
>
> Sorry, I'm getting carried away here. If I've missed any other
> obvious explanations please post them for all to enjoy.
>
> For the humor impaired, I mean no disrespect to Montana. Not much,
> anyway. :^)
>
> --
>
> Jay Lawlor jla...@ptdcs2.intel.com
I couldn't have put it any better. Very well done!
The Murr!
Paul Michael Lewis
>>opinion that Brett Favre is the most overrated QB.
How about:
1. Randall Cunningham
2. Troy Aikman
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| 'We do it because we are compelled.' -Kovacs (Moore)| |
| 'We are alone. There is nothing else.' -Long (Moore)| |
| 'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.' -Juvenal | |
| (Who watches the watchmen?) | |
| 'The struggle between God and man breaks -Kazantzakis | |
Thomas Price
Western PA QBs
>Joe Montana
>Dan Marino
>Jeff Hostetler
>Jim Kelly
Nobody ever remembers George Blanda.
Tom Price | heaven and earth regard the 10,000 | tp...@cs.cmu.edu
****************** | things as straw dogs and I feel fine | ******************
Leo James
><1993Aug12....@yvax.byu.edu> kush...@yvax.byu.edu (Paul_K) writes:
>>stuff deleted
>>>
>>> My vote for Most Overrated QB....has to be...Jim McMahon.
>>> I doubt he can stay upright long enough to make a difference for the Vikes,
>>> and I still can't believe the Vikes have pinned so many hopes on him,
>>> especially with the Qb's available to them through free agency and the draft.
>>> Didn't they get Toretta?
>>
>>How long have you been watching football? Let me say right off that I realize
>>that McMahon has a good chance of getting injured, that is his main problem,
>>but barring this he is great.
>
>I have to agree that McMahon is very over-rated. He's above average at
>best. He rode the crest of a very dominate defense and did very little
>that any other above average QB couldn't have done in the same situation.
>Now that he has some seasoning he does well, but hardly deserves his
>"Messiah" rating he seems to get every year.
>
>[more stuff deleted]
McMahon is weird, no doubt. He's the guy you don't want your daughter
to bring home, but he is a great quarterback. He's too pig-headed to
slide, but he always gives you 110% of what he's got. I really have
to differ with the sentiment that he "did very little that any other
above average QB couldn't have done". In a Bucs/Bears game one year he
was banged up and didn't start the game. The Bucs had shut down their
offense for most of three quarters and built a lead that was something
like 28 - 3. In desperation, Ditka put Jimmy in towards the end of the
third. Four TD passes later, the last one with time running out, and
the Bears had pulled out another victory. Their defense and that offen-
sive line were the power of the Bears, but Jim McMahon was their heart
and soul.
PS, Without Lowdermilk and Zimmerman he's going to get his butt kicked
in Minnesota though.
Tim Ingram
>Games !
"The post-season does not a season make."
I'm definitely not a 49er fan (I've been a Cowboys' fan forever), but I, like
others here have commented, can see that Young is an exceptional talent. I may
not like the team, but I respect how great they are.
Nothing would make me happier than to see Young falter and the 49ers lose,
but I doubt that will happen, at least in the 3-13 sense of the word. Young is too good.
I understand he isn't The Team, that it takes a great supporting cast, but he
could take even a so-so team and make them competitors.
I can't honestly say he won't be like Kelly and do great during the regular
season but not during the big games in post season, but then again one never
knows.
Personally (and very possibly biased), I would prefer Troy over Steve because, even he
seems to have the same cool, calm, demeanor -- *strong* passing arm --, Troy
is younger and truly has that feeling of what it is like to with the Big Show.
Troy's work ethic is top-notch, too (not that Steve's isn't, though).
Throwing all personal bias aside, quarterbacks I'd love to see be a Cowboy if Troy weren't
there:
Steve Young, Joe Montana (gritting my teeth), Warren Moon, Rypien, Marino, Stan the
Man H., C. Miller (healthy), (just to name a few).
Qb's I'd rather not see as a Cowboy:
Kelly (I could be wrong, but I'll wait for him to show me that -- I do happen to like
his personality, though), Randall C. (even though I love his attitude and witness -- takes
too many risks -- maybe that will change as he gets older),
Everett (ya gotta like his effort, though), George (the jury's still out on this guy, could
be great...), Marinovich (hello, are you there? You could possibly be good, wake up!) :)
-tim
--
===================================================
ti...@microsoft.com is Tim Ingram
===================================================
D. J. Pajerek
>>>Maybe I am biased, well...hell, yes I am...but I must disagree with the
>>>opinion that Brett Favre is the most overrated QB.
>
>How about:
>
>1. Randall Cunningham
Yes.
>2. Troy Aikman
No.
>+-| Paul Lewis | People's Temple, Jonestown: WLVR 91.3fm Mon. 11pm-1am |-+
Don Pajerek
Standard disclaimers apply.
JOHN HEIM
All players are exactly as good as their records. I'm not saying
being on a good team doesn't make a good player better. But if a QB
is good enough to lead a team to the playoffs (or the SB), well, then
he's good enough to lead a team to the playoffs (or the SB).
I guess what I'm getting at is that I would like to know what
over-rated means. Let's take Mark Rypien for instance, how can he be
over-rated? Is he a SuperBowl caliber QB? Well, sure -- he did it
once, right? Does that mean I think he's better than Steve Young who's
never won the SB? Of course not.
You people are discussing this as if some real measurement of a QBs
talent is possible. As if by trying to account for the quality of
the team a player is on you can somehow come to some valid conclusion.
What it really boils down to is this: "In my totally subjective and
biased opinion, Mr. Quarterback X is not really as talented as you
think he is in your totally subjective and biased opinion."
My intention is not to say that we shouldn't be discussing this but
rather to point out that it's completely a judgement call and no proof
is possible.
JGH
do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
>In article <24ong7...@ua.d.umn.edu>, rvai...@ua.d.umn.edu (rajiv vaidyanathan) writes:
>|> Talking about schools sending QBs to the NFL, what about Washington State?
>|> Off the top of my head, I can think of
>|> Jack Thompson (ok, ok, that was years ago)
>|> Timm Rosenbach
>|> Mark Rypien
>|> Drew Bledsoe
>
>
>Dan Marino
>Jeff Hostetler
Hmm... from California *schools* (as the original poster mentioned), off the
top of my head (and only current players):
Troy Aikman, UCLA
Rodney Peete, USC
Gale Gilbert, Cal
Mike Pawlawski, Cal
John Elway, Stanford
Dan McGuire, San Diego State
Tommy Maddox, UCLA
Steve Bono, UCLA
Todd "Robo-QB (yeah, right)" Marinovich, USC
I don't know how many of these people are actually FROM California (other than
Gilbert, who certainly is).
-Doug Gibson
do...@abby.chem.ucla.edu
Neither UCLA nor the National Science Foundation has a clue what I am doing.
They just pay me to do it.
"We have to tear you to shreds because we care." - EAC
SHERMAN, AVI LAURENCE
Gary Rosen
> Montana gets in the Hall for dropping
> ten yard dumpers on slants to Jerry Rice
Also for games like the one against Philly in '89 when he pulled it out
by throwing 4 TD passes in the 4th quarter after being sacked 7 times
by an Eagle defense that manhandled the 'Niners. Of course knowledgable
fans don't care that his TD/INT ratio is almost *twice* as good as
Elway's (1.98 vs. 1.01).
- Gary Rosen
KIRK RAY FIELDS
aul Michael Lewis) writes:
>>>Maybe I am biased, well...hell, yes I am...but I must disagree with the
>>>opinion that Brett Favre is the most overrated QB.
>
>How about:
>
>1. Randall Cunningham
>
>--
What are you smoking? I agree that Randall is a bum, but you're way off
target with Troy. What does it take to impress you, since four years of
steady progress culminating in a Superbowl victory obviously does not. Oh
well, sit back and watch Mr. Overrated win his second SB.
--
SFE...@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
My vote goes to Jimbo Kelly. His success is mainly due to the fact that he has
receivers who can do incredible contortions to catch his errant passes.
Patrick Vanhoomissen
>
>
>My vote goes to Jimbo Kelly. His success is mainly due to the fact that he has
>receivers who can do incredible contortions to catch his errant passes.
>
Has also has Reed, who dropped two passes that hit him right in the numbers
to lose the superbowl to the Giants..
Machine-gun Kelly is what, 38? The NFL will soon lose Moon, Marino, Kelly,..
GEORGE E STAVRAKAKIS
I am looking for some people interested in playing fantasy football at
N.C. State. We are looking at maybe going to Mitch's Tavern and having
our draft there.
please reply to gest...@eos.ncsu.edu
Satish Nair
>
>Has also has Reed, who dropped two passes that hit him right in the numbers
>to lose the superbowl to the Giants..
>
Maybe it was because when he was making some of the other catches, something
else kept hitting him right in the numbers (i.e. Collins, Walls, Jackson,
Guyton, etc.).
I seriously think Reed got a case of hearing footsteps in that game.
"I've never been hit so hard in all my life" - Reed after SuperBowl XXV.
satish nair
giants
John Edwards
In a previous article, pa...@vice.ico.tek.com (Patrick Vanhoomissen) says:
>[...]
>Machine-gun Kelly is what, 38? The NFL will soon lose Moon, Marino, Kelly,..
>
But not Montana!!! He's so great, he'll be quarterbacking until he's 70!!!
--
John C.K. Edwards aa...@freenet.carleton.ca ua...@freenet.victoria.bc.ca
Poli Sci/Law III "Women, you can't live with them, pass the beer nuts."
CUSA Arts/SS Rep -- Norm Peterson
Ottawa, ON Unfortunately, my opinions aren't those of CUSA or Carleton U
Ray Chen
If MacMahon had been able to stay relatively healthy during
his career, I think he would have gone down as one of the all-time
greats.
He's a great leader and he's a great decision-maker.
Put simply, he wins. It's one of those funny intangibles. Some QBs
are just winners. They *perform* under pressure.
Montana is one of them. Elway is another, Super Bowl blowouts notwithstanding.
(Hey, I'm a Redskins fan. There was *nothing* Elway could have done about
those losses.)
If you want losers, well, check out Testaverde for one. All the right physical
tools, and while he's not a rocket scientist, neither was Bradshaw (another
winner). But he's choked every big game he's ever played in.
There are those who think that Philly was a better team under MacMahon than
under Randall. Sure, Randall was more physically dangerous but somehow
Randall has the knack of losing most of his big games, whereas Jimmy has
the knack of winning most of his.
Of course, the problem the Vikings have is figuring what to do when Jimmy
gets hurt this year.
Ray Chen
ch...@sni-usa.com
--
S I E M E N S Raymond C. Chen, Ph.D. email: ch...@sni-usa.com
------------- 200 Wheeler Road Tel: (617) 273-0480
N I X D O R F Burlington, MA 01803 Fax: (617) 221-0236
SNI USA uucp: ...!uunet!sni-usa!chen
Robert Michael Trotter
>About MacMahon and those who think he's overrated.
>If MacMahon had been able to stay relatively healthy during
>his career, I think he would have gone down as one of the all-time
>greats.
>He's a great leader and he's a great decision-maker.
>
>gets hurt this year.
them last year to an 11-5 record.....
Mark
GO VIKINGS!
--
Minnesota Vikings 11-5 NFC Central Division Champions 1992-93
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Minnesota Machine 10-4 AFFL Midwest 2nd Place
Karl Buchmann
>In article <1993Aug31.2...@aquila.sni-usa.com> ch...@aquila.sni-usa.com (Ray Chen) writes:
>>About MacMahon and those who think he's overrated.
>>If MacMahon had been able to stay relatively healthy during
>>his career, I think he would have gone down as one of the all-time
>>greats.
>>He's a great leader and he's a great decision-maker.
>>
>>Of course, the problem the Vikings have is figuring what to do when Jimmy
>>gets hurt this year.
>
> Not that hard to figure out, they go with Salisbury who lead
> them last year to an 11-5 record.....
>
> Mark
>
You should have put a smiley on this, Mark. You and I and the rest of
America knows that it was the Vikes' overwhelming defense that led them
to that record.
The D scored eight touchdowns last year. That won't happen again this
year, but a healthy Jimmy McNugget more than makes up for it.
A healthy Sean Salisbury...? Better hope the D starts scoring again.
McNugget is a winner. (He used to do it with the Bears and that's why I
hate him so much. :-) He'll be facing some tough pass rushes this year,
so it's likely, given his past history, that he will be out. I hope
he doesn't go down, however. To have a team's season blown by injuries
to key players is especially painful. And I, for one, would enjoy a
Packers' win over a healthy Vikings team - with no excuses - much more
than the defeat of a B-squad. Makes for better football.
Besides, Terry Allen is already gone for the season. Limit: one major
injury per team, please.
Peace (until Sunday, anyway! :-)
-Karlucco (glad to be back on line!)
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=
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\ / /_______ / MIT Lincoln Laboratory =======
\/ __ __ || Millstone Hill Radar Site ====OOOOO====
|| \ \^/ / || "All the satellites fit to track." ===OOO====OOOO==
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|| \/\^/\/ || ====OOOOO====
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||______ /\ buc...@ll.mit.edu
/________/ /__\ (Back off, man! I'm a scientist.)
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