Marv Levy - "NFL should adopt CFL rules"
William M Edwards
: Did anyone see the American Bore tonight? Unfortunately, it was
: the only football on TV here in Canada tonight and it was one of the
: worst football games I've ever seen - bad even for an NFL pre-season
: game. The final score was 9-7 for Buffalo over Dallas with the
: Cowboys' TD coming with just 19 seconds left in the game.
: I also saw the Calgary-San Antonio game today on TSN. After
: watching these two games, there shouldn't be any doubt as to which
: game is more exciting. Watching the NFL game was like watching paint
: dry while there was excitement on every play (or so it seemed) in the
: CFL game. Levy is absolutely correct in what he says except that the
: NFL should go all the way and completely adopt Canadian rules,
: including the field, and then allow the CFL to take it over - similar
: to what happened with the WHA and NHL in the late '70s. I know that
: this won't happen but it is nice to dream anyway.
Maybe Marv should go to Canada...
If the NFL and CFL merged, you guys would never win.
--
SPiKE
--
GO COWBOYS!!!!
Dave winter
Buffalo Bills head coach Marv Levy, who once coached the Montreal
Alouettes, said yesterday that the NFL would be wise to look at the rules
of the Canadian Football League, such as the size of the endzones and the
backfield motion (in the CFL all backs can be in motion before the snap,
this leads to a more complex offence.)
An observation of mine is that the NFL is slowly switching to CFL rules
anyway. It has already added the two point conversion. This year in the
NFL if a receiver is nudged out of bounds he can come back in bounds to
make a catch. The CFL has had that rule for ever (almost). I've also read
things about changing the way the clock works.
I figure that by the year 2000 (the suposed NFL in toronto date) the NFL
will be able to merge with the CFL because it will have the same rules as
the older game.
Steve `Scooter' Kramer
William M Edwards <sp...@case.cyberspace.com> wrote:
>Ravi Ramkissoonsingh (rram...@ccs.carleton.ca) wrote:
[Buffalo-Dallas exhibition stuff deleted]
>: I also saw the Calgary-San Antonio game today on TSN. After
>: watching these two games, there shouldn't be any doubt as to which
>: game is more exciting. Watching the NFL game was like watching paint
>: dry while there was excitement on every play (or so it seemed) in the
>: CFL game. Levy is absolutely correct in what he says except that the
>: NFL should go all the way and completely adopt Canadian rules,
>: including the field, and then allow the CFL to take it over - similar
>: to what happened with the WHA and NHL in the late '70s. I know that
>: this won't happen but it is nice to dream anyway.
>
>Maybe Marv should go to Canada...
>
>If the NFL and CFL merged, you guys would never win.
>
*sigh* What a surprise. This thread again.
Just siddown, fanboy, let's explain life to you.
1. Marv Levy came *from* the CFL to the NFL.
2. Of *course* the NFL teams would win if they went head-to-head with CFL
teams; definitely under American rules, probably under CFL rules. The NFL
has a lot of money and rich idiots (for the most part) willing to spend it.
The CFL does not. So if you take a player of good-but-not-quite-great
talent and give him two offers: "We'll pay you $50,000 to play professional
football in Winnipeg," or, "We'll pay you $175,000 to sit and watch other
guys play professional football in Chicago, except for the odd series or
two every six games or so when the score is hopelessly lopsided," which do
you think he'll choose? Very, very few choose the CFL in that case.
3. That having been said, the two games *are* different in subtle ways
and do require different talents. Doug Flutie wasn't much in the NFL; in
the CFL, he lights up the board. Raghib Ismail wasn't much in the CFL,
but he's just peachy in the NFL. Warren Moon made it in both leagues; Timm
Rosenbach was dreadful in both. Sure, there's an overall talent disparity,
but individually, some players in one league are better suited for the
other.
4. The leagues will not merge. Neither one really wants it. They couldn't
reconcile the rules, fields, TV money, etc. It would leave the hybrid
league with 43 (soon to be 44) teams, some of which are in competing markets.
It would be a disaster for all involved.
5. The NFL under Paul Tagliaboob has been looking for ways to speed up the
games, introduce more offense, and generally make it more exciting. He has
adopted and proposed rule changes which the CFL has had in place for years.
I don't think that's a coincidence. Not that it's a conscious imitation of
the CFL, just that they're trying to tinker with their product and the CFL
doesn't need to.
/=>Steve "Scooter" Kramer<==>sco...@universe.digex.net<==>IRC: oriole<==\
[--=Head Weasel, the Weasel Patrol Mailing List=---|Direct from Columbia,]
[Commissioner, Internet League of Canadian Football| Maryland, USA...the ]
[----------=Owner, Columbia 29ers, ILCF=-----------| world's only otaku- ]
[------=Proud Fan, Baltimore Stallions, CFL=-------| tenor-Netsurfing- ]
[----=Protesting Fan, Baltimore Orioles, MLB=------| rock-and-rolling- ]
[-----=Member, LMNOP, Internet mailing list=-------|RPG-BDSM-CFL-fanboy- ]
[Husband, Daddy & Daddy-to-be-once-more, Real Life=| Weasel!! ]
\==========>http://www.access.digex.net/~redcap/ScooterNet.html<=========/
John Sutherland
: Ravi Ramkissoonsingh (rram...@ccs.carleton.ca) wrote:
: : the only football on TV here in Canada tonight and it was one of the
: : worst football games I've ever seen - bad even for an NFL pre-season
: : game. The final score was 9-7 for Buffalo over Dallas with the
: : Cowboys' TD coming with just 19 seconds left in the game.
: : watching these two games, there shouldn't be any doubt as to which
: : game is more exciting. Watching the NFL game was like watching paint
: : dry while there was excitement on every play (or so it seemed) in the
: : CFL game. Levy is absolutely correct in what he says except that the
: : NFL should go all the way and completely adopt Canadian rules,
: : including the field, and then allow the CFL to take it over - similar
: : to what happened with the WHA and NHL in the late '70s. I know that
: : this won't happen but it is nice to dream anyway.
: Maybe Marv should go to Canada...
: If the NFL and CFL merged, you guys would never win.
I normally don't take umbrage at any American's
more-than-uninformed opinion about the CFL, but this one struck me. I
assume that the 'you guys' you are refering to are the Canadians,
correct? If that is the case, I would suspect that there would be an
extreme disparity between the CFL and NFL teams for the first few years.
And that disparity would be favorable for the Canadians. Think about it
for a sec, how many kids will grow up playing Canadian ball? Every team
that is Canadian now has that extra experience advantage, plus having
played these rules professionally. If the NFL were to wholesale adopt
the CFL rules (which would never happen, them gradually changing is truly
a pipe dream), the CFL teams would clean up for the first few years.
Sorry, but experience and know-how would certainly outweigh the obvious
great talent that is present in the American system.
Drew
--
=========================================================
+ +
+ "Humility is for those who can't carry off +
+ arrogance successfully!" +
+ +
+ -Drew Sutherland +
+ <jsut...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> +
+ +
=========================================================
Steven C. Slawin
>I figure that by the year 2000 (the suposed NFL in toronto date) the NFL
>will be able to merge with the CFL because it will have the same rules as
>the older game.
They will never merge.
--
[*] Steven C. Slawin - tMoD Technology - scsl...@gate.net
[*] Editor: Raphael K. Starre's "Starre Report" NFL Magazine
[*] Member: Professional Football Writers of America
William M Edwards
: Just siddown, fanboy, let's explain life to you.
"Fanboy"? Jeez.
: 1. Marv Levy came *from* the CFL to the NFL.
Yeah, from the minors to the majors. He's been to the big dance 4 times,
and was embarrassed in all but one.
: 3. That having been said, the two games *are* different in subtle ways
: and do require different talents. Doug Flutie wasn't much in the NFL; in
: the CFL, he lights up the board. Raghib Ismail wasn't much in the CFL,
: but he's just peachy in the NFL. Warren Moon made it in both leagues; Timm
: Rosenbach was dreadful in both. Sure, there's an overall talent disparity,
: but individually, some players in one league are better suited for the
: other.
Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
superstar in the CFL. He's too short for the NFL. Warren Moon *did not*
reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
: 5. The NFL under Paul Tagliaboob has been looking for ways to speed up the
: games, introduce more offense, and generally make it more exciting. He has
: adopted and proposed rule changes which the CFL has had in place for years.
: I don't think that's a coincidence. Not that it's a conscious imitation of
: the CFL, just that they're trying to tinker with their product and the CFL
: doesn't need to.
The two leagues play football. Basically, it's nearly the same philosophy
with a few minor differences. I think that to make the game more
exciting, the rules and regs. will naturally have to gravitate to a
common point for both leagues. The CFL may not need to tinker with their
product, but you can bet they will, just as the NFL will.
Each league can learn from the other, but until the owners of the CFL
teams decide to spend a little more money on players, the CFL will
continue to get NFL cast-offs (with the occasional Rocket Ismail-type deal).
I wish John Candy was still around.
D.M.
>
>Steve `Scooter' Kramer (sco...@universe.digex.net) wrote:
>
>: Just siddown, fanboy, let's explain life to you.
>
>"Fanboy"? Jeez.
>
>: 1. Marv Levy came *from* the CFL to the NFL.
>
>Yeah, from the minors to the majors. He's been to the big dance 4 times,
>and was embarrassed in all but one.
>
>: 3. That having been said, the two games *are* different in subtle ways
>: and do require different talents. Doug Flutie wasn't much in the NFL; in
>
To be perfecctly blunt, the only reason most Americans are in the CFL is they
cannot make it in the NFL. I don't blame them one bit as any person would like to aim for the
best before settling in on reality.
Red Adept
>Steve `Scooter' Kramer (sco...@universe.digex.net) wrote:
>: 1. Marv Levy came *from* the CFL to the NFL.
>Yeah, from the minors to the majors. He's been to the big dance 4 times,
>and was embarrassed in all but one.
I choose to disagree with this. Why, later in your comment, do you say
that football is football, but yet here say the CFL is 'minor' to the
NFL?
>Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
>superstar in the CFL. He's too short for the NFL. Warren Moon *did not*
>reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
>whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
>the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
Er.....Flutie wasn't a no-show in the NFL. As a starter in the NFL, the
teams he was with won consistently, but the stigma of his size forced
him from the game.
Warren Moon, had he a competent team, coach, and owner, COULD have reached
the same level. Bud Adams has been the bane of Houston Football for years
now. It's the reason why no one's even TRYING to keep the Oilers there.
The attitude is much like with LA.....why keep them, we'll just get
another team....and this one WON'T have Bud Adams.
Warren Moon was consistent with his CFL career, when in the NFL. In his
case, the quality around him was lower. :)
>The two leagues play football. Basically, it's nearly the same philosophy
>with a few minor differences. I think that to make the game more
>exciting, the rules and regs. will naturally have to gravitate to a
>common point for both leagues. The CFL may not need to tinker with their
>product, but you can bet they will, just as the NFL will.
>Each league can learn from the other, but until the owners of the CFL
>teams decide to spend a little more money on players, the CFL will
>continue to get NFL cast-offs (with the occasional Rocket Ismail-type deal).
Although they both play 'football', it's not the same philosophy. You
have to do different things to achieve greatness in both sports. I
agree that both will probably tinker with their rules to try and smooth
the game out and become more exciting. I see the CFL as being willing
to take more risks with things though. I'd love to see Helmet Cam
back too...
The CFL will probably decide to open their pockets a little more, but
now, in the season of the labour strike and salary caps, owners are
screaming, "Save us from ourselves!" in all other sports as salaries
increase. The CFL has been spared from that for now, and the league
is gaining more stable footing.
You may think of the players as "NFL-castoffs", but is it really that,
or as in some cases (like Bucky Richardson) a numbers game, where they
can't afford all their players, not that they're not as good. There
is a LOT of 'NFL calibre' talent out there that isn't playing NFL.
--Red
CFL-News coordinator for the San Antonio Texans.
---
reda...@cris.com, Brent, Son of Fiona (Amber), Robin Redgrove (SCA)
M:TG Addict, Hail Eris, All Hail Discordia, Fanimaniac, Ferret-o-phile
Witch, Raven, "Clinging to his paganism like lichen to a stone." Goth
---
D. A. Scocca
\ Buffalo Bills head coach Marv Levy, who once coached the Montreal
\ Alouettes, said yesterday that the NFL would be wise to look at the rules
\ of the Canadian Football League, such as the size of the endzones and the
\ backfield motion (in the CFL all backs can be in motion before the snap,
\ this leads to a more complex offence.)
Marv actually makes a great deal of sense.
Remember the NFL's consternation two years ago over the relatively
large number of field goals and the relatively small number of
touchdowns? Remember how the NFL twiddled around trying to fix it, by
moving back the spot where the ball is turned over on a missed kick?
Well, the cute thing is that the NFL didn't have a clue what was
causing the problem--the reason TD scoring in the red zone went way
down was that zone defenses had improved to the point that when the
offense was close enough to the goal line that there was no way to go
over/behind the zone, the defense had the advantage over the offense.
Fiddling with the field goal rules didn't address the problem.
Stretching the end zones to 20 yards, on the other hand, would have
forced the zone defenses to play a little deeper and would have
actually increased the number of TDs.
Instead, we get the rule discouraging long field goal attempts, and
therefore bringing about even more attempts to down punts near the
goal line, which is not exactly thrill-a-minute football.
D.
--
* The Minstrel in the Gallery "Heteroskedastic" *
* D. A. Scocca sco...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu *
* "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only *
* release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes *
William M Edwards
: >Yeah, from the minors to the majors. He's been to the big dance 4 times,
: >and was embarrassed in all but one.
: I choose to disagree with this. Why, later in your comment, do you say
: that football is football, but yet here say the CFL is 'minor' to the
: NFL?
Well, disagree if you want, but the game of football is basically played with
the same philosophies, no matter where it is played. "Minor", as in minor
league, as in baseball. Football is football, but that doesn't mean the
high school football champion team in my state can play on the same field
as the college champs.
: >The two leagues play football. Basically, it's nearly the same philosophy
: Although they both play 'football', it's not the same philosophy. You
: have to do different things to achieve greatness in both sports. I
: agree that both will probably tinker with their rules to try and smooth
: the game out and become more exciting. I see the CFL as being willing
: to take more risks with things though. I'd love to see Helmet Cam
: back too...
Naah, he who scores the most points wins. What is so different about
that? The CFL HAS to take more risks, because they don't have the
following the NFL does.
: You may think of the players as "NFL-castoffs", but is it really that,
: or as in some cases (like Bucky Richardson) a numbers game, where they
: can't afford all their players, not that they're not as good. There
: is a LOT of 'NFL calibre' talent out there that isn't playing NFL.
The NFL salary cap has been implemented in VERY recent history, and it
has caused NFL teams to "trim the fat", so to speak. You don't cut
players because their salary is too high, there has to be a mitigating
factor when good players are cut, like in Phil Simms case. He was an
EXCELLENT QB, but even so, he was getting a little old, and his salary
made him expendable.
Steve `Scooter' Kramer
William M Edwards <sp...@case.cyberspace.com> wrote:
>Steve `Scooter' Kramer (sco...@universe.digex.net) wrote:
>
>: 1. Marv Levy came *from* the CFL to the NFL.
>
>and was embarrassed in all but one.
I guess that means we shouldn't expect much from Barry Switzer. I mean,
gee, he was coaching in college! Some of those college guys don't even
*make* the "majors"!
>: 3. That having been said, the two games *are* different in subtle ways
>: and do require different talents. Doug Flutie wasn't much in the NFL; in
>: the CFL, he lights up the board. Raghib Ismail wasn't much in the CFL,
>: but he's just peachy in the NFL. Warren Moon made it in both leagues; Timm
>: Rosenbach was dreadful in both. Sure, there's an overall talent disparity,
>: but individually, some players in one league are better suited for the
>: other.
>
>Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
>superstar in the CFL. He's too short for the NFL. Warren Moon *did not*
>reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
>whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
>the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
Right. But you're equating players with teams. If Warren Moon had Jerry
Rice to throw to for several seasons, do you think he might have had some
Super Bowl rings? And it's interesting you should say, "too short for the
NFL." In the CFL, it's often a comment like, "Geez, he's gotta *move* back
there (the QB)! This isn't the NFL!" Don't assume it only works one way.
>: 5. The NFL under Paul Tagliaboob has been looking for ways to speed up the
>: games, introduce more offense, and generally make it more exciting. He has
>: adopted and proposed rule changes which the CFL has had in place for years.
>: I don't think that's a coincidence. Not that it's a conscious imitation of
>: the CFL, just that they're trying to tinker with their product and the CFL
>: doesn't need to.
>
>The two leagues play football. Basically, it's nearly the same philosophy
>with a few minor differences. I think that to make the game more
>exciting, the rules and regs. will naturally have to gravitate to a
>common point for both leagues. The CFL may not need to tinker with their
>product, but you can bet they will, just as the NFL will.
>Each league can learn from the other, but until the owners of the CFL
>teams decide to spend a little more money on players, the CFL will
>continue to get NFL cast-offs (with the occasional Rocket Ismail-type deal).
The main tinker-suggesters (is that a word?) in the CFL are American owners
who failed to hook an NFL team for their town. And guess what? They stop
after a year. You won't hear Jim Speros of the Baltimore Stallions (
pronounced "Colts") talking about getting rid of the rouge any more. Why?
They realize it makes for a different, CFL-style game and, IMHO, a *better*
game. Now if only, say, Bill Bidwell would stop talking after a year.
>I wish John Candy was still around.
>
Me too, my friend, me too.
Jonathan C. Enslin
> I normally don't take umbrage at any American's
>more-than-uninformed opinion about the CFL, but this one struck me. I
>assume that the 'you guys' you are refering to are the Canadians,
>correct? If that is the case, I would suspect that there would be an
>extreme disparity between the CFL and NFL teams for the first few years.
>And that disparity would be favorable for the Canadians. Think about it
>for a sec, how many kids will grow up playing Canadian ball? Every team
>that is Canadian now has that extra experience advantage, plus having
>played these rules professionally. If the NFL were to wholesale adopt
>the CFL rules (which would never happen, them gradually changing is truly
>a pipe dream), the CFL teams would clean up for the first few years.
>Sorry, but experience and know-how would certainly outweigh the obvious
>great talent that is present in the American system.
I understand your point but I completely disagree. As I have been watching
the CFL recently, I have noticed one thing - how completely SIMILAR the
two games are. For instance, Saturday's Stallions / Mad Dogs game. I'm
sorry, but that game was not quicker nor faster than the NFL.
There is a HUGE talent gap between the CFL and the NFL. Sure some rules are
different, but those rules differences do not change the underlying aspects
of the game. You basically need the same skills to run, catch, pass, block,
and tackle. Outside of some speedy receivers, I don't see one area where
the CFL has better football talent than the NFL, no matter the rules.
Rule changes simply take adjustments - ones that can be made through
practice and pre-season. Talent takes time.
Jon
Jonathan C. Enslin
>: 3. That having been said, the two games *are* different in subtle ways
>: and do require different talents. Doug Flutie wasn't much in the NFL; in
>: the CFL, he lights up the board. Raghib Ismail wasn't much in the CFL,
>: but he's just peachy in the NFL. Warren Moon made it in both leagues; Timm
>: Rosenbach was dreadful in both. Sure, there's an overall talent disparity,
>: but individually, some players in one league are better suited for the
>: other.
>
>Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
>superstar in the CFL. He's too short for the NFL. Warren Moon *did not*
>reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
>whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
>the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
>
You can count Moon's NFL playoff wins on one hand.
Jon
John Sutherland
: > I normally don't take umbrage at any American's
: >more-than-uninformed opinion about the CFL, but this one struck me. I
: >assume that the 'you guys' you are refering to are the Canadians,
: >correct? If that is the case, I would suspect that there would be an
: >extreme disparity between the CFL and NFL teams for the first few years.
: >And that disparity would be favorable for the Canadians. Think about it
: >for a sec, how many kids will grow up playing Canadian ball? Every team
: >that is Canadian now has that extra experience advantage, plus having
: >played these rules professionally. If the NFL were to wholesale adopt
: >the CFL rules (which would never happen, them gradually changing is truly
: >a pipe dream), the CFL teams would clean up for the first few years.
: >Sorry, but experience and know-how would certainly outweigh the obvious
: >great talent that is present in the American system.
: I understand your point but I completely disagree. As I have been watching
: the CFL recently, I have noticed one thing - how completely SIMILAR the
: two games are. For instance, Saturday's Stallions / Mad Dogs game. I'm
: sorry, but that game was not quicker nor faster than the NFL.
Unfortunately, that was a sterling example of the American
influence on the CFL. How much of the coaching staff and player roster
had experience in the CFL before last year? I agree that there are a lot
of similar games in the NFL, but look at the Calgary-San Antonio game.
Most teams that are down by 12 that far into the third quarter are duck soup.
: There is a HUGE talent gap between the CFL and the NFL. Sure some rules are
: different, but those rules differences do not change the underlying aspects
: of the game. You basically need the same skills to run, catch, pass, block,
: and tackle. Outside of some speedy receivers, I don't see one area where
: the CFL has better football talent than the NFL, no matter the rules.
I agree completely. Not only does the CFL have an admittedly
smaller pool of talent to draw from, but the really good boys are in the
NFL. That being the case, there are many a player in the NFL now who
would never make it in the CFL. Yeah, that's right, don't adjust your
set, I said what you think I said. Let us look at a few examples for a
sec shall we? First, let's look at the likes of Dexter Manley.
Incredible D-Man for the 'Skins, but couldn't cut it in the CFL. There
are a plethora of reasons, but one is the greater mobility of ALL linemen
(on both sides of the ball) in the CFL. You have 15 (or so, I forget the
exact number) extra yards to cover on the line of scrimmage, and anyone
who is NOT in goooood shape is going to be a wheezing bag of sweat by the
end of one half. Take a good look at the guys on the line of a CFL team,
then compare them to the NFL boys. Granted the NFL boys are a lot
bigger, they just can't move like the CFL boys. That doesn't matter in
the NFL where the QB who leaves the pocket consistently (ie-Randall
Cunnigham) is actually chastised, but in the North, if your QB can't run,
he's guaranteed to suck (ie-Kerwin Bell). I agree that a majority of
guys in the CFL haven't been able to make it in the NFL, but likewise,
they do play a different game here in Canada, and the converse could well
be true.
: Rule changes simply take adjustments - ones that can be made through
: practice and pre-season. Talent takes time.
I agree to a point, but look at the NFL last year. One minor
change in timekeeping (the 20 second clock), and the whole league was
bitching about it becoming a FG kicker's game. I'm sure we'll still see
some of that this year as well. While I doubt that the NFL will ever
adopt more than a similar appearance to the CFL, I still maintain that if
they were to have a wholesale adoption next year coupled with a merger,
it would be a few years before any American team could confidently say
that they would be wiping the Canadian teams.
Drew (Who loves the Steelers almost as much as the Stampeders! <Perhaps
it's that 'st' thing???>)
William M Edwards
: >: 1. Marv Levy came *from* the CFL to the NFL.
: >
: >Yeah, from the minors to the majors. He's been to the big dance 4 times,
: >and was embarrassed in all but one.
: I guess that means we shouldn't expect much from Barry Switzer. I mean,
: gee, he was coaching in college! Some of those college guys don't even
: *make* the "majors"!
Well, you're comparing a guy who's been in the NFL for several years to a
guy who's been there 1 year.
: >Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
: >superstar in the CFL. He's too short for the NFL. Warren Moon *did not*
: >reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
: >whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
: >the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
: Right. But you're equating players with teams. If Warren Moon had Jerry
: Rice to throw to for several seasons, do you think he might have had some
: Super Bowl rings? And it's interesting you should say, "too short for the
: NFL." In the CFL, it's often a comment like, "Geez, he's gotta *move* back
: there (the QB)! This isn't the NFL!" Don't assume it only works one way.
Yeah, too short. Flutie's biggest weakness was that he didn't have the
vision to see over the 6'5" DL men chasing him down. As far as Warren
Moon is concerned, for several years, he had all the tools needed to make
it all the way.
T. M. Cuffel
Steve `Scooter' Kramer <sco...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>
>Just siddown, fanboy, let's explain life to you.
>
>reconcile the rules, fields, TV money, etc. It would leave the hybrid
>league with 43 (soon to be 44) teams, some of which are in competing markets.
>It would be a disaster for all involved.
What's worse, the smaller Canadian markets would have a hard time competing
finicially...they would risk losing their teams altogether to larger
American markets...
>
>5. The NFL under Paul Tagliaboob has been looking for ways to speed up the
>games, introduce more offense, and generally make it more exciting. He has
>adopted and proposed rule changes which the CFL has had in place for years.
>I don't think that's a coincidence. Not that it's a conscious imitation of
>the CFL, just that they're trying to tinker with their product and the CFL
>doesn't need to.
This is not necessarily because of a superior product. American Football
has a much higher profile to maintain, in larger and more competitive
markets. With a smaller and already loyal fan base, there is not much
reason to try to improve on things.
--
Beware the advice of successful people;
They do not seek company.
- Dogbert
Turlogh Ó Faoláin
>
> : . . . . . . . . . watching the CFL recently, I have noticed one thing - how completely
>
>>>>
Having lurked on the edges of this thread for a while (and having watched Marv
Levy's coaching career since George Allen hired him as the NFL's first coach
specialising in Special Teams), I have been awaiting an observation on Levy's
coaching that has not (yet) materialised. So I offer it here . . .
During the past quarter-century, Levy learned much about the game from his various
coaching stops. More, he has put it to use as Head Coach. Indeed, his subtle
"innovations" have been largely successful. But.
The hurry-up offense that worked so successfully in getting him to his first Super Bowl
backfired at the championship level. During the regular season, against "average"
NFL opponents, it worked beautifully, keeping his opponents' defensive specialists off
the field and allowing the Bills to control the flow of the game (a staple of a successful
CFL team). Once he got to the Super Bowl, however, that very same No-Huddle
Offense cost him the championship, even though he had the superior personnel.
By using the hurry-up against the Giants, with their grind-it-out NFL East offense, he
enabled New York to control the ball for 42 minutes. In effect, at a Super Bowl level,
he offered his opponents an extra two possessions. Teams getting "extra"
possessions at that level have a habit of taking advantage of them. That is, after all,
how they get there.
Moreover, the Giants were somewhat of a special case on defense, doing very little
specialised substitution (you don't take a Lawrence Taylor out on a passing down). In
the hubbub over the famous near-miss by Scott Norwood, few thought to criticise
Levy for it having to come down to a FGA. While it may be unfair to suggest twas his
time in the CFL that "cost him the game" (the No-Huddle had earned the Bills
home-field advantage through the playoffs, and gotten them to the game in the first
place), one wonders at the result if both teams had run their offenses for 30 minutes.
Indeed, even Levy has acknowledged his error (albeit not orally), if only by backing
down substantially from the No-Huddle in the past four years, now utilising it only to
disconcert those teams who offer dramatic situational substitution. Actually, since
the recent "spreading of the wealth" caused by free agency and the salary cap, tis
likely we will see less specialised substitution, in any case. And, ironically, we are
likely to see more and more "all-around atheletes" in NFL secondaries . . . as we
have for years in the CFL.
Turlogh Ó Faoláin
(aka: Terence Folan)
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
tfo...@new-orleans.neosoft.com
1015 Rue Ursulines
New Orleans, LA 70116
(in the French Quarter)
Tel. (504) 524-1626
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jeff Innis
I vaguely remember the last 3 Argonaut games being absolute stinkers.
Didn't 1 of them finish 11-10?
Theodore Kamena
Jonathan C. Enslin <deve...@amber.indstate.edu> wrote:
>
>>Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
>>superstar in the CFL. He's too short for the NFL. Warren Moon *did not*
>>reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
>>whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
>>the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
>>
>
>
>Jon
Fair enough. Playoff victories, however, are as much a reflection
of the overall team as they are Warren Moon. He wasn't in
the Houston secondary watching Buffalo receivers get open in that
AFC Final, he can't really be faulted for that loss.
Another way to determine the level he reached is through
all-star selections or appearances. Moon has appeared in
what, four or five Pro Bowls? During his six years in the CFL,
Moon made the Western Division all-star team once. ONCE in six
years was Moon considered the top QB in a five-team division.
Having said that, I'd be the first to admit that there is a
signifigant talent gap between the two leagues, one that may have
grown as the NFL has expanded its rosters and the gap between NFL
and CFL salaries has grown. But that gap isn't as large as some
might think, and it in no way detracts from the CFL game. The CFL
game is different, and entertaining.
Butch Kamena
Steve `Scooter' Kramer
John Sutherland <jsut...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>Jonathan C. Enslin (deve...@amber.indstate.edu) wrote:
>
>: I understand your point but I completely disagree. As I have been watching
>: the CFL recently, I have noticed one thing - how completely SIMILAR the
>: two games are. For instance, Saturday's Stallions / Mad Dogs game. I'm
>: sorry, but that game was not quicker nor faster than the NFL.
>
> Unfortunately, that was a sterling example of the American
>influence on the CFL. How much of the coaching staff and player roster
>had experience in the CFL before last year? I agree that there are a lot
>of similar games in the NFL, but look at the Calgary-San Antonio game.
>Most teams that are down by 12 that far into the third quarter are duck soup.
>
thanks to some injuries and just poor luck; The Dogs' offense averaged 15
points a game coming in, lowest in the CFL if I'm not mistaken, and the
first-string QB left with an injury in the first quarter. Their best
receiver, Eddie Brown, has a broken foot and didn't suit up.
Conversely, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the three
best defenses in the CFL this year are Calgary, Memphis, and Baltimore (not
necessarily in that order -- oddly, I'd rate Saskatchewan fourth). Even
considering all that, the score (25-15, Memphis) shows that both teams
separately scored more than Dallas and Buffalo did combined in Toronto, and
these were supposed to be two of the NFL's best offenses. Granted, they
were doing it with their scrubs, but we've heard in glorious terms how much
better the NFL players are and how the two games are so similar...
Baltimore's coaching staff has plenty of CFL experience, and from earlier
games this season and last, I think you'd agree that the Stallions can
really open it up when they want to. Ask the 'Cudas and Texans. :-)
Steve `Scooter' Kramer
>
>: >: 1. Marv Levy came *from* the CFL to the NFL.
>: >
>: >Yeah, from the minors to the majors. He's been to the big dance 4 times,
>: >and was embarrassed in all but one.
>
>: I guess that means we shouldn't expect much from Barry Switzer. I mean,
>: gee, he was coaching in college! Some of those college guys don't even
>: *make* the "majors"!
>
>Well, you're comparing a guy who's been in the NFL for several years to a
>guy who's been there 1 year.
Yeah, but isn't that the "minors" to the "majors"? Or is it "football is
football"? What exactly are you trying to say?
>: >Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
>: >superstar in the CFL. He's too short for the NFL. Warren Moon *did not*
>: >reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
>: >whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
>: >the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
>
>: Right. But you're equating players with teams. If Warren Moon had Jerry
>: Rice to throw to for several seasons, do you think he might have had some
>: Super Bowl rings? And it's interesting you should say, "too short for the
>: NFL." In the CFL, it's often a comment like, "Geez, he's gotta *move* back
>: there (the QB)! This isn't the NFL!" Don't assume it only works one way.
>
>Yeah, too short. Flutie's biggest weakness was that he didn't have the
>vision to see over the 6'5" DL men chasing him down. As far as Warren
>Moon is concerned, for several years, he had all the tools needed to make
>it all the way.
>
Ah, okay. So Houston's failures rest solely on the shoulders of Moon. Not
Cris Dishman, Alonzo Highsmith, Cody Carlson, etc. Just Moon. If Moon
had been in San Francisco and Montana in Houston, we'd be talking about
Houston as "the team of the '80's." Nope, sorry, can't buy it.
Look again at what you are saying. Flutie's teams won, but he personally
wasn't good enough. Moon isn't to the same level, supposedly, because his
team's *didn't* win.
Let's be real, here. Edmonton won those Grey Cups because of a lot more
than just Moon, and Houston lost the games it did because of more than
Moon screwing up. Elway, fr'ex, has had the hell kicked out of him in
more than one Super Bowl, but I recognize that Elway is a damn good QB.
That is all I'm saying about Warren Moon. He was good in the CFL and good
in the NFL. Again, certain individual players have skills which suit
them for either the NFL, the CFL, both leagues, or neither league. And not
everybody is in the league (or out of the league) they should be.
Steve `Scooter' Kramer
Steve `Scooter' Kramer <sco...@universe.digex.net> wrote:
>Conversely, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the three
>best defenses in the CFL this year are Calgary, Memphis, and Baltimore (not
>necessarily in that order -- oddly, I'd rate Saskatchewan fourth). Even
>considering all that, the score (25-15, Memphis) shows that both teams
>separately scored more than Dallas and Buffalo did combined in Toronto, and
Wait, the Buffalo-Dallas score was 9-7, right? Let's see, carry the three,
that's...um...16 points, right? Which is more than 15, for reasonably
large values of 16? *Doh!!* Too many Black & Tans last night!
Anyway, what I meant was that the CFL teams scored more points.
The point is taken, the beast is dead, the fluff gets up your nose. :-)
D. A. Scocca
John Sutherland <jsut...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote:
\ : and tackle. Outside of some speedy receivers, I don't see one area where
\ : the CFL has better football talent than the NFL, no matter the rules.
\ That being the case, there are many a player in the NFL now who
\ would never make it in the CFL. Yeah, that's right, don't adjust your
\ set, I said what you think I said.
One important reason a _lot_ of NFL linemen might have problems in the
the CFL--with a 37-man roster and 12 starters on each side of the
ball, there's a heck of a lot less substitution.
Your big D-linemen in particular (William Perry, the late Jerome
Brown) wouldn't last a half-season.
William M Edwards
: Yeah, but isn't that the "minors" to the "majors"? Or is it "football is
: football"? What exactly are you trying to say?
Football is football as far as the players are concerned. I don't believe
that odd-sized field takes a new breed of player to be successful on it.
You guys have a lot of players that were cut from NFL teams, some who
were not even DRAFTED by the NFL. What kind of a league is this that can
have Doug Flutie as it's best ALL TIME passer?!?
In American COLLEGE football, there are more similarities than there is
between CFL and the NFL. Yeah, it's the "minors to the majors", also. I
think comparing Marv Levy (who's going into his 10th year as head coach of the
Bills) to Barry Switzer (who's going into his second year as the Cowboys
Head Coach) is pointless and unfair. It took Marv Levy a few years to put
together a team that went to 4 straight Super Bowls only to get stomped,
and we haven't even seen a bit of Switzer's influence on the Cowboys.
: >Yeah, too short. Flutie's biggest weakness was that he didn't have the
: >vision to see over the 6'5" DL men chasing him down. As far as Warren
: >Moon is concerned, for several years, he had all the tools needed to make
: >it all the way.
: >
: Ah, okay. So Houston's failures rest solely on the shoulders of Moon. Not
: Cris Dishman, Alonzo Highsmith, Cody Carlson, etc. Just Moon. If Moon
: had been in San Francisco and Montana in Houston, we'd be talking about
: Houston as "the team of the '80's." Nope, sorry, can't buy it.
You don't have to buy it, as it's only my opinion. I don't know about
you, but I live in South Texas, and I've watched EVERY Oilers game up
until the time they hired Buddy Ryan, going back about 10 years. I've
watched promising season after promising season unfold, only to see the
Oilers languish in the playoffs, largely because of Warren Moon. The man
was a choke artist at crunch-time. All to often going three and out
because he couldn't read the D well enough to see that one of his 4
(count 'em 4!) might be open, putting one of the best D's on the
field for most of the game.
: Look again at what you are saying. Flutie's teams won, but he personally
: wasn't good enough. Moon isn't to the same level, supposedly, because his
: team's *didn't* win.
Has Flutie's team won the championship up there? I said he wasn't good
enough for the *N*FL, not the *C*FL. He languished in the NFL. Moon
hasn't had the success in the NFL, that Flutie has had in the CFL.
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
Instead of just looking at the last 3 Argo games, why don't you
look at all the CFL games?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
Department of Psychology
Carleton University
Ottawa, Ontario
Email address: rram...@ccs.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AKIS, RICHARD JOHN
>
> Having said that, I'd be the first to admit that there is a
>signifigant talent gap between the two leagues, one that may have
>grown as the NFL has expanded its rosters and the gap between NFL
>and CFL salaries has grown. But that gap isn't as large as some
>might think, and it in no way detracts from the CFL game. The CFL
>game is different, and entertaining.
>
>Butch Kamena
>
If you look beyond say the top 5 or 6 guys on any NFL team, to
the AVERAGE players, and compared them to what you see on a CFL
roster, I suspect there wouldn't be a lot of difference. Once you get
beyond the superstars, the margin for these guys between making the team
and being cut (and perhaps ending up on a CFL team) is not large one,
and can be so fine that a lot of players get cut for purely arbitrary
reasons.
I watched part of that Monday Night blowout between Cleveland and
Chicago. Cleveland has a young quarterback named Zeier who performed
excellently. Despite that, all the announcers could talk about was
that he was too short. It wouldn't surprise me if this guy ultimately
ended up in the CFL, not because he wasn't capable of making an NFL
squad, but becuase they wouldn't let him since he didn't fit the cookie
cutter cutout image of an "NFL quarterback".
Richard A.
William M Edwards
: >Football is football as far as the players are concerned. I don't believe
: >that odd-sized field takes a new breed of player to be successful on it.
: >You guys have a lot of players that were cut from NFL teams, some who
: >were not even DRAFTED by the NFL. What kind of a league is this that can
: >have Doug Flutie as it's best ALL TIME passer?!?
: Your whipping boy, Moon, was a player that wasn't drafted. I suppose
: you would say that the fact that he hasn't won a superbowl proved those
: NFL scouts were right, regardless of his track record.
No, I think it was a disappointment that Moon wasn't drafted by the NFL.
He was a good QB, who spent his best days in the Great White North.
I, like Moon, think it was a rascist thing.
He's not my "whipping boy". He just could never win the big ones in the NFL.
Oh SURE, he'd put together a few good drives, but we all knew tha once he
got into the red zone, more often than not he couldn't put it in the end
zone. Maybe that's why he thrived in the CFL, more end zone.
: While obviously there is overlap between the type of players suited
: for both leagues, the CFL field in terms of total area is nearly double the
: size of the NFL field. CFL players on the whole have to be a lot more
: mobile than their NFL counterparts. I recall a player who made the
: transition to the CFL game said something to the effect that he had
: never done so much running in his entire life. The larger field means
: that the players are more spread out- this is why Flutie's lack of size
: doesn't hinder his performance in the CFL- his sightlines are not as
: blocked to the degree they were in the NFL.
That would seem to me to be a good reason. I don't think it's the ONLY
reason, though.
: Your comments seem to imply that any half-ass NFL player would
: be a megastar if he played in the CFL. In regards to this, I have
: to think of quarterback Sean Salisbury, who played for Winnipeg before
: moving on to Minnesota. In Minnesota, Salisbury wasn't great, but he was
: good enough to justify his place on the team. How did he do in Winnipeg?
: Well, he wasn't great, but he was good enough to justify his place on the
: team.
That's not the point I'm trying to get across. I just think that
by-and-large, NFL players are the cream of the crop, with a few exceptions.
There are exceptions to EVERY rule.
: many coaches have even made it to the big game even once? How many coaches
: have had the number of winning seasons he has had? Levy has had more success
: than about 99% of the coaches in NFL history. By your standards, you could
: probably count the number of "competent" NFL coaches on one hand.
The only unique thing Levy has done is get his team into the big game 4
seasons in a row. I think he's had 7 winning seasons, and a LOT of
coaches have had that kind of success. A lot have done better than that.
He's not even the most successful coach in his division.
Aubrey S. Powell
Am I the only one who notices that this quote comes from the head
coach of the four-time consecutive losers of the Super Bowl?
-Scott
William M Edwards
: Am I the only one who notices that this quote comes from the head
: coach of the four-time consecutive losers of the Super Bowl?
: -Scott
Nope, you're not the only one. If I couldn't get my team over the top,
I'd want to change the rules, too.
Theodore Kamena
>
>: Yeah, but isn't that the "minors" to the "majors"? Or is it "football is
>: football"? What exactly are you trying to say?
>
>that odd-sized field takes a new breed of player to be successful on it.
>You guys have a lot of players that were cut from NFL teams, some who
>were not even DRAFTED by the NFL. What kind of a league is this that can
>have Doug Flutie as it's best ALL TIME passer?!?
Well, first of all, he isn't, at least not yet. Second, Flutie
at one point was the all-time leading passer in NCAA Div. I-A.
Clearly, he can rack up yards, even if he doesn't fit the NFL
prototype of a quarterback. By the way, Flutie's career record as
an NFL starter was around 10-5.
And the "football is football" line typically gets spouted by
coaches new to the CFL who promptly go about 6-12 their first
year. They adapt, or they get fired. The game is different.
Take Andrew Stewart, a B.C. defensive lineman. He spent about
four years in the NFL, where he played at about 275. In the CFL,
he dropped 30 pounds to play at 245. Why? The game requires a
different sort of player. Stewart needed less strength, but more
quickness.
As I've said before, as a rule, the NFL has better talent. You
judge that talent on three things:
* Size
* Speed
* Skills
If you have all three in abundance, it's likely you'll be in
the NFL, although not certain. Some players do fall through the
cracks, some do become a victim of "numbers."
So, if you lack one of those, you get cut. Because the CFL uses
different rules, players with sufficient skills and speed, but
inadequate size, are the most likely candidates to have CFL
success. Big guys who were too slow for the NFL are likely too
slow for the CFL, as well. That's most apparent in watching CFL
linebackers. There's some very good ones with speed, smarts,
ability to hit and make plays. They're in the CFL because they
weigh 230 or less, which really isn't big enough for the NFL, but
they're just as fun to watch as somebody 20 pounds heavier,
especially because on a bigger field, that lack of heft isn't as
much of a liability, and their quickness is a greater asset.
Butch Kamena
AKIS, RICHARD JOHN
>Steve `Scooter' Kramer (sco...@universe.digex.net) wrote:
>
>: Yeah, but isn't that the "minors" to the "majors"? Or is it "football is
>: football"? What exactly are you trying to say?
>
>Football is football as far as the players are concerned. I don't believe
>that odd-sized field takes a new breed of player to be successful on it.
>You guys have a lot of players that were cut from NFL teams, some who
>were not even DRAFTED by the NFL. What kind of a league is this that can
>have Doug Flutie as it's best ALL TIME passer?!?
Your whipping boy, Moon, was a player that wasn't drafted. I suppose
you would say that the fact that he hasn't won a superbowl proved those
NFL scouts were right, regardless of his track record.
While obviously there is overlap between the type of players suited
for both leagues, the CFL field in terms of total area is nearly double the
size of the NFL field. CFL players on the whole have to be a lot more
mobile than their NFL counterparts. I recall a player who made the
transition to the CFL game said something to the effect that he had
never done so much running in his entire life. The larger field means
that the players are more spread out- this is why Flutie's lack of size
doesn't hinder his performance in the CFL- his sightlines are not as
blocked to the degree they were in the NFL.
Your comments seem to imply that any half-ass NFL player would
be a megastar if he played in the CFL. In regards to this, I have
to think of quarterback Sean Salisbury, who played for Winnipeg before
moving on to Minnesota. In Minnesota, Salisbury wasn't great, but he was
good enough to justify his place on the team. How did he do in Winnipeg?
Well, he wasn't great, but he was good enough to justify his place on the
team.
>
>In American COLLEGE football, there are more similarities than there is
>between CFL and the NFL. Yeah, it's the "minors to the majors", also. I
>think comparing Marv Levy (who's going into his 10th year as head coach of the
>Bills) to Barry Switzer (who's going into his second year as the Cowboys
>Head Coach) is pointless and unfair. It took Marv Levy a few years to put
>together a team that went to 4 straight Super Bowls only to get stomped,
>and we haven't even seen a bit of Switzer's influence on the Cowboys.
I think your previous labeling of Levy as a mediocre coach is unfair. How
many coaches have even made it to the big game even once? How many coaches
have had the number of winning seasons he has had? Levy has had more success
than about 99% of the coaches in NFL history. By your standards, you could
probably count the number of "competent" NFL coaches on one hand.
>
>: >Yeah, too short. Flutie's biggest weakness was that he didn't have the
>: >vision to see over the 6'5" DL men chasing him down. As far as Warren
>: >Moon is concerned, for several years, he had all the tools needed to make
>: >it all the way.
>: >
>: Ah, okay. So Houston's failures rest solely on the shoulders of Moon. Not
>: Cris Dishman, Alonzo Highsmith, Cody Carlson, etc. Just Moon. If Moon
>: had been in San Francisco and Montana in Houston, we'd be talking about
>: Houston as "the team of the '80's." Nope, sorry, can't buy it.
>
>You don't have to buy it, as it's only my opinion. I don't know about
>you, but I live in South Texas, and I've watched EVERY Oilers game up
>until the time they hired Buddy Ryan, going back about 10 years. I've
>watched promising season after promising season unfold, only to see the
>Oilers languish in the playoffs, largely because of Warren Moon. The man
>was a choke artist at crunch-time. All to often going three and out
>because he couldn't read the D well enough to see that one of his 4
>(count 'em 4!) might be open, putting one of the best D's on the
>field for most of the game.
>
>: Look again at what you are saying. Flutie's teams won, but he personally
>: wasn't good enough. Moon isn't to the same level, supposedly, because his
>: team's *didn't* win.
>
>Has Flutie's team won the championship up there? I said he wasn't good
>enough for the *N*FL, not the *C*FL. He languished in the NFL. Moon
>hasn't had the success in the NFL, that Flutie has had in the CFL.
Flutie's Stampeders won it in 1992.
Similar to Levy's case, while Moon hasn't won the "big game", he
has had a hell of a lot more success than MOST NFL quarterbacks- in terms
of passing yardage, touchdowns, winning percentage, making the pro-bowl
and longevity. If Levy and Moon are mediocre, what does that say about the
NFL as a whole? Teams like San Francisco and Dallas and the superstars that
have lead them are the all too rare exceptions, not the rule. Citing Moon
and Levy as examples to show that the CFL is a "minor" league is in my view
ridiculous. If Moon had been cut in the first week of training camp in his
first season, or if Levy had lead the Bills to Tampa Bay Buccanneer type
seasons, you might have a leg to stand on, otherwise I would suggest you
find someone else to pick on.
Richard A.
AKIS, RICHARD JOHN
>: than about 99% of the coaches in NFL history. By your standards, you could
>: probably count the number of "competent" NFL coaches on one hand.
>
>seasons in a row. I think he's had 7 winning seasons, and a LOT of
>coaches have had that kind of success. A lot have done better than that.
>He's not even the most successful coach in his division.
Oh wow, he's got Bill Parcells in his division. I guess I should
withdraw my statement. OK, let's say a "LOT" of NFL coachs have had 7 winning
seasons. How do you think that compares with the number who have NOT?
What do you think the ratio is? I would be surprised if the NOTs won out
by a ratio of less than 20 to 1. Out of those coachs who have had seven
or more winning seasons, how many have won as many playoff games as Levy's
Bills? My guess is significantly less than 50%.
Levy might not be the most successful coach in the NFL, but he has
set standards that comparatively few have matched. If he is a "minor
league" coach, as some of your statements would seem to imply, what
does that say about the VAST MAJORITY of his NFL contemporaries?
Richard A.
William M Edwards
: >coaches have had that kind of success. A lot have done better than that.
: >He's not even the most successful coach in his division.
: Oh wow, he's got Bill Parcells in his division. I guess I should
Well, I was thinking about Shula, but thanks for reminding me about
Parcells. It's hard to get used to him coaching the Patriots.
: withdraw my statement. OK, let's say a "LOT" of NFL coachs have had 7 winning
: seasons. How do you think that compares with the number who have NOT?
Gosh I have no idea and I'm not about to compile the stats.
: What do you think the ratio is? I would be surprised if the NOTs won out
: by a ratio of less than 20 to 1. Out of those coachs who have had seven
: or more winning seasons, how many have won as many playoff games as Levy's
: Bills? My guess is significantly less than 50%.
Again, I'm NOT looking that up!
: Levy might not be the most successful coach in the NFL, but he has
: set standards that comparatively few have matched. If he is a "minor
: league" coach, as some of your statements would seem to imply, what
: does that say about the VAST MAJORITY of his NFL contemporaries?
I don't know that he SET the standards, but I guess that's fair enough.
If you guys like the CFL, by ALL means, GO for it. I'm an American, and
was brought up with American football. As far as I'm concerned, NONE of
the other organizations can compare their talent level with the NFL. Not
the CFL, USFL, WLAF, Arena, college, peewee, Pop Warner, on and on and on.
What Levy did was great, but he was surrounded by some of the best talent
in the most talented football league in the world for several years, and
couldn't get the job done. He will NOT be remembered as the only coach
ever to take his team to the Super Bowl 4 years in a row, he will be
remembered as the only coach who LOST 4 Super Bowls in a row.
The Dallas Cowboys went to the NFC championship game last year,
essentially WITHOUT a head coach, and had it not been for a slew of
uncharacteristic turnovers, would have went to the Super Bowl. Not that
this is very pertinent to the discussion, but it shows how far
talent can take a team.
I know, I know. Buffalo had 9 turnovers (uncharacteristic? i'd say so),
in their first SB with Dallas, but take away those TA's, and they STILL
lose. Maybe we shouldn't hold this against Marv, talented as his team was,
they had to play one of the best teams ever fielded in the NFL.
William M Edwards
: William M Edwards (sp...@case.cyberspace.com) wrote:
: : Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
: : reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
: : whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
: : the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
: Flutie won over 60% of the games he started in the NFL even though he
: played on mediocre teams. Warren Moon is in the top ten passing in the
Oh please. Flutie never won a game on his own. I'd be REALLY surprised to
hear he broke a 50% completion ratio in the NFL.
: NFL even though he was on awful teams for most of his years there. And
: how many times has he missed the Pro Bowl team? Warren Moon didn't win
: any championships in the CFL, *the team he played for* did. He often had
: help from veteran QBs , even in the championship game.
After Moon showed up, in 1984, they had 3 losing seasons, then they
stayed in the black after that, during his time with the Oilers. They
weren't THAT awful. The man's had some pretty good talent around him.
: BTW the excuse that a QB is too short if he is under 6'2" because he
: can't see over 6'6"and taller linemen is ridiculous. Since your eyes
: are a good 5" below the top of your head one would have to be 6'9" tall
: in order to actually see over someone 6'6" tall.
Well, duh, Bevis. You don't actually have to see over the top of his
head... sheesh! Why not ask Mike Ditka why he traded Flutie?
In fact, why not take a poll and ask ALL NFL coaches why Flutie did not
succeed as an NFL QB? They'll tell you, HE WAS TOOOOOO SHORT!
Flutie is 5'9", not 6'2", BTW.
bg...@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
: Football is football. Flutie was a no-show in the NFL, but he's a
: superstar in the CFL. He's too short for the NFL. Warren Moon *did not*
: reach the same level in the NFL, as he did in the CFL. Didn't he win a
: whole slew of championships in the CFL? In the NFL, he never even WENT to
: the big game. And Timm Rosenbach was dreadful in both;)
Flutie won over 60% of the games he started in the NFL even though he
played on mediocre teams. Warren Moon is in the top ten passing in the
NFL even though he was on awful teams for most of his years there. And
how many times has he missed the Pro Bowl team? Warren Moon didn't win
any championships in the CFL, *the team he played for* did. He often had
help from veteran QBs , even in the championship game.
BTW the excuse that a QB is too short if he is under 6'2" because he
can't see over 6'6"and taller linemen is ridiculous. Since your eyes
are a good 5" below the top of your head one would have to be 6'9" tall
in order to actually see over someone 6'6" tall.
***************************************************************************
Bevin Breitkreuz
email: bg...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, AB, Canada
***************************************************************************
Steve `Scooter' Kramer
>
>Football is football as far as the players are concerned. I don't believe
>that odd-sized field takes a new breed of player to be successful on it.
>You guys have a lot of players that were cut from NFL teams, some who
>were not even DRAFTED by the NFL. What kind of a league is this that can
>have Doug Flutie as it's best ALL TIME passer?!?
You want a list? A faster one; one with 3 downs to make something happen
instead of 4; one where defensive backs have to play the wideouts straight
up rather than shading them inside and using the sidelines to their
advantage; one where you have a 20-second time clock; one where you have
a 37-man roster and only one time out per half...if you think the field is
the only difference, you need to watch more closely -- not that the
differences are going to be obvious to everyone on first inspection...
>: Ah, okay. So Houston's failures rest solely on the shoulders of Moon. Not
>: Cris Dishman, Alonzo Highsmith, Cody Carlson, etc. Just Moon. If Moon
>: had been in San Francisco and Montana in Houston, we'd be talking about
>: Houston as "the team of the '80's." Nope, sorry, can't buy it.
>
>You don't have to buy it, as it's only my opinion. I don't know about
>you, but I live in South Texas, and I've watched EVERY Oilers game up
>until the time they hired Buddy Ryan, going back about 10 years. I've
>watched promising season after promising season unfold, only to see the
>Oilers languish in the playoffs, largely because of Warren Moon. The man
>was a choke artist at crunch-time. All to often going three and out
>because he couldn't read the D well enough to see that one of his 4
>(count 'em 4!) might be open, putting one of the best D's on the
>field for most of the game.
Unless Moon quick-kicked on first down several times a game, I don't see
how this can be, simply because I don't think any single player can turn a
team around over an entire season from nothing to something or the other
way around. In a game, sure, but not over a whole season.
>: Look again at what you are saying. Flutie's teams won, but he personally
>: wasn't good enough. Moon isn't to the same level, supposedly, because his
>: team's *didn't* win.
>
>Has Flutie's team won the championship up there? I said he wasn't good
>enough for the *N*FL, not the *C*FL. He languished in the NFL. Moon
>hasn't had the success in the NFL, that Flutie has had in the CFL.
>
Well, not exactly. Flutie has enjoyed great success in the CFL -- he's
been the league's MVP for the last four seasons -- but the Stamps have a
habit of coughing up a hairball in the playoffs. Last year was an example:
Doug watched his brother Darren haul in a last-minute pass to give B.C. the
victory over the Stamps, a trip to the Grey Cup, and the eventual Cup itself
after their last-minute, lucky, lucky, lucky, won't-happen-again victory
over Baltimore. :-)
So what's the measure we're using here? Is it winning the big game? Or is
it simply talent on the field? Is Doug Williams, who has a Super Bowl ring,
a better QB than Warren Moon, who doesn't? Is everyone in the NFL just
flat out better, and it doesn't matter who they are or what their game is
like? Paying them a better salary automatically means they can play *any*
variation of the game?
Take another case: David Archer. A very good QB in the CFL, former QB for
Atlanta in the NFL. However, I wouldn't rate him as high as Flutie, or Matt
Dunigan (now in Birmingham), or Tracy Ham (Baltimore); he might not even be
as good as Danny McManus (B.C.), the jury's still out there. Now why is
this? He has plenty of zip on the ball, and he can read defenses fairly
well. Decent accuracy, too. What's holding him back? Simply, it's the
fact that he's got NFL skills. He's a pure pocket passer, five-steps-and-
look-in, scramble only as a last resort. If things start shifting on him,
he has to improvise, and he can't...if he insists on hanging back in the
pocket, defenses start rushing, knowing exactly where he'll be, and he's a
goner.
In the NFL, this is not really a problem. You hand off and make them
play the run. It's now 2nd and
7, and you've got time for a chuck downfield during one of the next two
cracks you'll have at it. This is not an option in the CFL. It leads to
two-and-out. The Texans-nee-Gold-Miners, Archer's team, have done it a lot.
Certain types of QBs can foil this by scrambling, improvising, using the
*entire* field, and making you guess as to where they'll show up next.
Flutie is such a QB. Be4 you think that I'm saying they're all in the CFL,
Randall Cunningham is another. If Cunningham were in the CFL, you could
hand him the record books and have him start re-writing. It would be a
thing of beauty.
Now Steve Young, a guy with plenty of Super Bowl rings, is a pocket passer.
He reads defenses great, and throws accurately, and has many talented guys
catching the ball. If Steve Young were in the CFL, he'd still be a great
QB. But if Young and Cunningham were on equivalent, championship-caliber
teams in the CFL, you can bet that Cunningham, the man with no Super Bowl
rings, would be hoisting Grey Cup after Grey Cup over his head, and Young
would not. And the reason that Randall Cunningham isn't in the CFL? Right,
because the NFL pays better.
If you can look beyond this money-created, "minor-league/major-league" crap
and assume that everyone is getting paid the same by both leagues, which
league do you suppose would get the quick, small guys and which would get
the large, strong guys? It's obvious, isn't it?
Theodore Kamena
>: William M Edwards (sp...@case.cyberspace.com) wrote:
>
>: Flutie won over 60% of the games he started in the NFL even though he
>
>hear he broke a 50% completion ratio in the NFL.
Surprise! New England, 1988, when he started nine games, he
completed 52.9%. He was over 50% in Chicago, too, although I
don't have the actual number handy. Granted, 52.9 is noting
special, but the Pats did better with Flutie at QB that season
than they did with Eason, Grogan or Tom Ramsey.
Actually, we'd have to say Flutie did win at least ONE game
on his own, coming off the bench to drive the Pats to two
4th-quarter touchdowns in a game early in that 1988 season. He
threw for four touchdowns in another game (although he only
completed six passes all day).
I know I'm calling on pretty miniscule stuff here, but I've
heard this "Flutie sucked in the NFL" argument so many times that
I've started to dig through old Street & Smith's guides and the
like to find out exactly what he did.
Butch Kamena
William M Edwards
: In article <40uksr$a...@case.cyberspace.com>,
: William M Edwards <sp...@case.cyberspace.com> wrote:
: >bg...@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
: >: William M Edwards (sp...@case.cyberspace.com) wrote:
: >
: >: Flutie won over 60% of the games he started in the NFL even though he
: >: played on mediocre teams. Warren Moon is in the top ten passing in the
: >
: >Oh please. Flutie never won a game on his own. I'd be REALLY surprised to
: >hear he broke a 50% completion ratio in the NFL.
: Surprise! New England, 1988, when he started nine games, he
: completed 52.9%. He was over 50% in Chicago, too, although I
: don't have the actual number handy. Granted, 52.9 is noting
: special, but the Pats did better with Flutie at QB that season
: than they did with Eason, Grogan or Tom Ramsey.
You're right, 52.9% is nothin special, but I was thinking about career
percentage. I dug 'em up, and here they are:
ATT COMP %
1986 (Bears) 46 23 50
1987 (Patriots) 25 15 60 <<< not bad, but he didn't play much.
1988 (Patriots) 179 92 51.4 <<< Why is this so different from
figure? Maybe my book is
wrong.... but that's what it says.
1989 (Patriots) 91 36 39.6
which would give him a 50.25% completion rate, so I guess I was wrong.
Even with 52.9% for 1988, it only climbs to 50.62%. Well, I wasn't too
far off. I'm sure his CFL numbers are WAY better than that.
BTW, I only have a crappy copy of a crappy NFL encyclopedia for
reference, and if any of you have a more trustworthy publication, I won't
take offense if you set me straight. I've found some things to be
unreliable in this book before, but for the most part, it's fairly accurate.
Theodore Kamena
William M Edwards <sp...@case.cyberspace.com> wrote:
>Theodore Kamena (tka...@acs.ucalgary.ca) wrote:
>: In article <40uksr$a...@case.cyberspace.com>,
>: William M Edwards <sp...@case.cyberspace.com> wrote:
>: >Oh please. Flutie never won a game on his own. I'd be REALLY surprised to
>: >hear he broke a 50% completion ratio in the NFL.
>
>: Surprise! New England, 1988, when he started nine games, he
>: completed 52.9%. He was over 50% in Chicago, too, although I
>: don't have the actual number handy. Granted, 52.9 is noting
>: special, but the Pats did better with Flutie at QB that season
>: than they did with Eason, Grogan or Tom Ramsey.
>
>You're right, 52.9% is nothin special, but I was thinking about career
>percentage. I dug 'em up, and here they are:
>
> ATT COMP %
>
>1986 (Bears) 46 23 50
>1987 (Patriots) 25 15 60 <<< not bad, but he didn't play much.
>1988 (Patriots) 179 92 51.4 <<< Why is this so different from
> figure? Maybe my book is
> wrong.... but that's what it says.
>1989 (Patriots) 91 36 39.6
>
>which would give him a 50.25% completion rate, so I guess I was wrong.
>Even with 52.9% for 1988, it only climbs to 50.62%. Well, I wasn't too
>far off. I'm sure his CFL numbers are WAY better than that.
I think your number for 1988 is the correct one. And 50.25%
squeaks past by less than I thought it would. I would have guess
about 53%.
And to be fair, he might drop under 50% if you eliminate the
1987 numbers, which is probably the right thing to do. Wasn't
that a strike game that he did that?
Still, even with those numbers, he won almost twice as much
as he lost. I have no idea what that proves.
Flutie's numbers are better in the CFL, although in his first
year, that was more on volume than anything else, and through his
first three years, he threw a ton of interceptions.
Note also that in that first year, he ran once for every 2.6
pass attempts. That's unusual even in the CFL.
YEAR COMP ATT PCT YDS TD INT RUSH YDS TD
1990 207 392 52.8 2960 16 19 79 662 3
1991 466 730 63.8 6619 38 24 120 610 14
1992 396 688 57.6 5945 32 30 96 669 11
1993 416 703 59.2 6092 44 17 74 373 11
1994 403 659 61.2 5726 48 19 96 760 8
And while the talent level is part of it, the field (and the
overall game) is, too. There's a lot of QB's who have seen a fair
amount of playing time in both leagues, especially if you go back
over an extended period of time. I can't think of one who's
numbers jump in the CFL in the massive way his do.
Butch Kamena
Kevin Napolitano
:Flutie won over 60% of the games he started in the NFL even though
:he played on mediocre teams. Warren Moon is in the top ten passing in
Yeah, the Bears and Oilers were as mediocre as Warren Moon's
Edmonton Eskimo teams! ;)
kevin