More Idot Superstition-Related Anti-HPV Vaccine BS
Tom Enright
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121389664550189035.html?mod=Best+of+the+Web+Today
Now, as blogger Tom Maguire notes, the subject of HPV vaccination has
come up in a different context: yesterday's New York Times story about
Michelle Obama's "subtle makeover." Maguire cites an anecdote from
Mrs. Obama's work at the University of Chicago Medical Center, a story
that, in Maguire's words, is "ludicrously presented as a sympathetic
and positive story of her professional efforts":
She also altered the hospital's research agenda. When the human
papillomavirus vaccine, which can prevent cervical cancer, became
available, researchers proposed approaching local school principals
about enlisting black teenage girls as research subjects.
Mrs. Obama stopped that. The prospect of white doctors performing a
trial with black teenage girls summoned the specter of the Tuskegee
syphilis experiment of the mid-20th century, when white doctors let
hundreds of black men go untreated to study the disease.
"She'll talk about the elephant in the room," said Susan Sher, her
boss at the hospital, where Mrs. Obama is on leave from her more-than-
$300,000-a-year job.
================================================
Can we really afford to have such a reactionary, anti-sceince,
superstition moran in the White House?
-Tom Enright
Huck Kennedy
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121389664550189035.html?mod=Best+of+t...
You fucking idiot. You act as though Michelle Obama is against
the vaccine. What she objected to was the very first trials being
done on only black women.
She never put it like I am going to right now, but I'll do it in
terms a mouth-breathing racist like you can understand: Whitey comes
up with a new vaccine, says, hey, let's go test it on the darkies
first, and if they don't keel over, we can try it on normal people.
Michelle Obama objected to that, and it has nothing to do with
"anti-science supersition." It has to do with, hey, I thought that
sort of Tuskegee Josef Mengele type crap was supposed to be over a
long time ago.
Ralph Kennedy
"This is rsfc, not the Algonquin roundtable."
-xyzzy, 2/16/07
Tom Enright
Obama was against based on non-scientific, bigoted reasons.
> Michelle Obama objected to that, and it has nothing to do with
> "anti-science supersition." It has to do with, hey, I thought that
> sort of Tuskegee Josef Mengele type crap was supposed to be over a
> long time ago.
No, but people certainly like to bring-it up when it suits their
purpose, regardless how stupid it is.
-Tom Enright
> Ralph Kennedy
>
> "This is rsfc, not the Algonquin roundtable."
> -xyzzy, 2/16/07- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Huck Kennedy
Bullshit. I outlined the exact reason above.
> > Michelle Obama objected to that, and it has nothing to do with
> > "anti-science supersition." It has to do with, hey, I thought that
> > sort of Tuskegee Josef Mengele type crap was supposed to be over a
> > long time ago.
>
> No, but people certainly like to bring-it up when it suits their
> purpose, regardless how stupid it is.
If it's so "stupid," then go run the first trials on white women,
rather than choosing black women to try it on first before anybody
else.
TimV
"Huck Kennedy" <temp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0fbbcc44-af50-4a9b...@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
*******************
You have absolutely no idea what stage of trials this was in. In all
likelihood, this would have been late stage research (phase III trials)
since you would never do phase I or II trials in such a limited population
and no IRB would approve that nor would any researcher try. Gardasil started
Phase III trials in 2002, the same year Mrs. Obama joined the University of
Chicago Hospitals.
So, in fact, the only stated opposition of Mrs Obama was that it was the
image of white doctors experimenting on black teenage girls as research
subjects. We have enough trouble getting special populations involved in
clinical trials without the likes of Mrs. Obama perpetuating the imagery of
Tuskegee.
T
Tom Enright
"First trials"? So the trials were never carried-out on white
women?
Many people in the black community believe that the government, in the
Tuskagee experiments, infected black men with syphillis. Many people
in the black community believe that Dr. Charles Drew died because he
was denied a blood transfusion. Many people in the black community
believe, with the help of troglodytes like Rev. Wright, believe that
AIDS was created to wipe-out blacks. All of this ignorance literally
costs lives. Obama should use her position* to help educate the
community ("community outreach"?). Instead, she used her position to
reinforce that ignorance.
*Does anyone else believe that her job is just political patronage?
It's a no-work, bogus job.
-Tom Enright
> Ralph Kennedy
>
> "This is rsfc, not the Algonquin roundtable."
The BorgMan
a38f-2eb...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
>> > Can we really afford to have such a reactionary, anti-sceince,
>> > superstition moran in the White House?
>
>> You fucking idiot. You act as though Michelle Obama is agai
> nst
>> the vaccine. What she objected to was the very first trials being
>> done on only black women.
>>
>> She never put it like I am going to right now, but I'll do it
> in
>> terms a mouth-breathing racist like you can understand: Whitey comes
>> up with a new vaccine, says, hey, let's go test it on the darkies
>> first, and if they don't keel over, we can try it on normal people.
>
> Obama was against based on non-scientific, bigoted reasons.
Non-scientific, but all too historically accurate.
Anytime medical testing is to be done specifically on minorities,
veterans/military personnel, or criminals - one needs to look pretty
closely at the scientific justification for doing so. Considering that
something like 50% of all women are infected by HPV prior to their 18th
birthday shows that this isn't exactly a disease tied to ethnicity.
>> Michelle Obama objected to that, and it has nothing to do with
>> "anti-science supersition." It has to do with, hey, I thought that
>> sort of Tuskegee Josef Mengele type crap was supposed to be over a
>> long time ago.
>
> No, but people certainly like to bring-it up when it suits their
> purpose, regardless how stupid it is.
You think this kind of stuff stopped with Tuskegee (which mind you,
didn't actually end until 1972), the Cincinnati radiation experiments,
etc. ?
How about the EPA "sludge" tests in Baltimore?
There is good, historically based, reasoning for not trusting in these
situations.
--
Aaron
TimV
"The BorgMan" <m...@me.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9AC39DF6...@130.133.1.4...
And the people stopping it would not have been the Community Affairs officer
at the hospital.
With the time frame that this could involve, this had to have been a Phase
III trial. If they had conducted these trials without minorities, they would
be excoriated for not including them. This would have been one very small
portion of a far larger trial population.
T
J.C. Watts Enslin
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121389664550189035.html?mod=Best+of+t...
>
Man, if you are grasping at straws like this at the end of June, the
end of October will be something to behold.
Jon
The BorgMan
356f07...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
> Many people in the black community believe that the government, in the
> Tuskagee experiments, infected black men with syphillis.
Yeah, it's so much better that they just lied to them, claimed they were
treating them, and allowed them to suffer the effects of untreated
syphilis.
--
Aaron
rastafar...@yahoo.com
> "Huck Kennedy" <tempeh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I think you are speculating a but too much. If I was in the position
of Merck, trying to recruit for this clinical trial (which probably
was "PROMISE II" or something like that -- they did a large Phase 3
study in over 10,000 girls) and was told of this opposition, then the
logical response, assuming I wanted to make sure the study has a
diverse population, would be not to stop enrolling on the south-side
of Chicago, but rather to make sure that there were sufficient black
nurses/study-coordinators at the particular site(s) so that more black
girls (really their parents) would be willing to allow them to enroll
into the study.
In any case, it's unclear from the original story how this was
resolved -- I'll take my turn and speculate that I doubt that Michelle
Obama stopped enrollment at the site(s) in question, or even whether
she wanted to stop enrollment. We only really of her opposition to
how the enrollment was proposed to being carried out.
TimV
<rastafar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:613ece58-53f2-4662...@u12g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
*************\
That may in fact be the case. My point is Ralph's going off the handle about
how we shouldn't be performing these "very first trials being done only on
black women". A this would never happen. Secondly, the timeline doesn't fit
for an early HPV vaccine trial unless it was a completely novel HPV vaccine
unrelated to any of these. Given it is getting difficult getting any drug
company to invest in vaccines, it is highly improbable that a fourth vaccine
was in development beyond the three that were already through Phase I/II at
that point.
I would think that if she just managed to get more African-Americans
involved, she would have stated it that way (certainly would sound more
impressive and inclusive). Given her title at the hospital, I speculate that
they were hoping that she would help get the community involved in the
research. That is, of course, if the story is even true.
T
E .F. Hokie
> That may in fact be the case. My point is Ralph's going off the handle
Hi, are you new here?
--
E.F. Hokie
<insert witty or profound quote here>
Jim Gysin
Huck Kennedy sent the following on 6/20/2008 1:24 PM:>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121389664550189035.html?mod=Best+of+t....
>>
>> Now, as blogger Tom Maguire notes, the subject of HPV vaccination has
>> come up in a different context: yesterday's New York Times story about
>> Michelle Obama's "subtle makeover." Maguire cites an anecdote from
>> Mrs. Obama's work at the University of Chicago Medical Center, a story
>> that, in Maguire's words, is "ludicrously presented as a sympathetic
>> and positive story of her professional efforts":
>>
>> She also altered the hospital's research agenda. When the human
>> papillomavirus vaccine, which can prevent cervical cancer, became
>> available, researchers proposed approaching local school principals
>> about enlisting black teenage girls as research subjects.
>> Mrs. Obama stopped that. The prospect of white doctors performing a
>> trial with black teenage girls summoned the specter of the Tuskegee
>> syphilis experiment of the mid-20th century, when white doctors let
>> hundreds of black men go untreated to study the disease.
>> "She'll talk about the elephant in the room," said Susan Sher, her
>> boss at the hospital, where Mrs. Obama is on leave from her more-than-
>> $300,000-a-year job.
>>
>> ================================================
>>
>> Can we really afford to have such a reactionary, anti-sceince,
>> superstition moran in the White House?
>
> You fucking idiot.
Charming, as always.
> You act as though Michelle Obama is against
> the vaccine. What she objected to was the very first trials being
> done on only black women.
Was that how it went down? Were the researchers *only* interested in
testing it on blacks at first? The article is vague, and perhaps
intentionally so, and I honestly don't know the real answer. But I do
know that "as research subjects" and "as the first and only research
subjects" are not the same thing.
--
Jim Gysin
Waukesha, WI
Jim Gysin
E .F. Hokie sent the following on 6/20/2008 6:10 PM:
> On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:01:59 -0500, TimV wrote...
>
>> That may in fact be the case. My point is Ralph's going off the handle
>
> Hi, are you new here?
Heh. True dat. But he seems to be raising the ante with each
passing week anymore.