Just curious about the ALOUETTES
pdbutcher
Was it poor management? Low fan interest? I mean if it was low fan
interest, how did that happen? This, I thought used to be one of the
most successful teams in the CFL. Why is everyone so against expansion
to Montreal? Is the city that anti football? Anyone remember what their
attendance was like the last couple of years? What did their uniforms
and logo look like. One last question, are there any quebecois in the
CFL.
Dan the Colt Fan
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
: Yea, I was just wondering what exactly destroyed the Montreal Alouettes.
: Dan the Colt Fan
I would say that it was a combination of low fan interest and
poor management that killed the Alouettes (moreso low fan interest).
During the 1970s, the Als were one of the most successful franchises
in the CFL as they won Grey Cups in 1970, 1974 and 1977 (the latter
two with Marv Levy as head coach) and lost the big game to Edmonton in
1975, 1978 and 1979. They often struggled in the attendance department
before 1977 as they played in some terrible stadiums but in 1977 they
moved to Olympic Stadium which was considered to be a fine stadium in
its day. In those first few years at the Big O crowds of 50000-60000
weren't uncommon. In fact in 1977, the Als drew just under 70000 for a
regular season game against the Argos (still a league record) and over
68000 for the 1977 Grey Cup game (also still a Grey Cup record).
However two things happened that signalled a turning point for the franchise.
The separatist Parti Quebecois came into power in the mid 70s and
this resulted in many anglophone fans (who were generally the most
loyal CFL fans) moving out of the province of Quebec. Then in 1981,
with attendance beginning to decline, Sam Berger sold the Als to
Nelson Skalbania. Well, Nelson thought that the best way to attract
fans was to go out and buy some big name NFL and U.S. college players,
whether they were suited to the Canadian game or not. It turned out to
be a total disaster as the 1981 Alouettes with such names as Vince
Ferragamo, Tom Cousineau, Keith Gary, David Overstreet, Billy (White
Shoes) Johnson and James Scott accumulated a record of 3 wins and 13
losses. By 1982, most of those big names had been let go and most of
the fans stayed away and never really returned. I think that the best
they ever drew after that was 19000 per game and that just wasn't
enough. In their final season in the league, 1986, crowds of 5000 and
less weren't uncommon. On the eve of the 1987 season, their part owner
and general manager, Norm Kimball pulled the plug on the team.
I believe that a lot of CFL fans here in Canada are against the
return of the league into Montreal because of the memories of the last
few years of the team (1981-1986). Images of the tiny crowds in the
Big O linger in many fans' heads. Interestingly, amateur football is
quite popular in the province of Quebec now and this is part of the
reason that Larry Smith and others feel that a team could make a go of
it now.
As for the Als colours, they were red, white, and blue and one of
their logos was triangular in shape if I remember correctly. It should
also be noted that they went under the name of Montreal Concordes
between 1982 and 1985 as the Als had officially folded under Skalbania
after the 1981 season and a new franchise was granted to the city.
However, in a valiant attempt to attract the fans back, the team
returned to the name Alouettes in 1986.
I believe that there are actually quite a few Quebecois in the CFL
presently such as Pierre Vercheval and Francois Belanger of the Argos,
Michel Raby of Ottawa Rough Riders and Micheal Soles (I think he is
from the province of Quebec) of the Edmonton Eskimos.
I hope that I have answered all of your questions Dan and I am
sure that there are others on here who can and will contribute to
this discussion also!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
Carleton University
Department of Psychology
Email address: rram...@ccs.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Barry
In a previous article, pbut...@digex.net (pdbutcher) says:
>Yea, I was just wondering what exactly destroyed the Montreal Alouettes.
>Was it poor management? Low fan interest? I mean if it was low fan
>interest, how did that happen?
You're bang on in your guesses Dan. The team was poorly operated. It
tried to bring in well known NFLers like Vince Ferrigamo. He couldn't
adapt to the wide open game and extra man on the field. He was built up
to be Montreal's next sports hero, but he couldn't even make it as a
back-up in the league. Once the fans thought they were getting the wool
pulled over their eyes, they quit buying tickets. The team was briefly
resurrected under the name Concordes. But they couldn't put a winner on
the field, another key to fan support in Montreal. You only have to look
at Montreal Expo attendance figures to see that winning years have high
attendance and losing years have abysmal attendance figures.
The Alouettes were one of the most successful teams in the CFL, but
ownership problems created a lack of trust among the fan base and put the
team out of business.
I often wonder if the fact the "Canadian" in the Canadian Football League
has something to do with it, but thats a whole different story.
According to the league, there is an excellent chance a team will return
to Montreal, possibly by next year. One possibility is expansion, but
more than likely, it will be the new home of the Hamilton Tiger Cats.
Keep in mind, the Commish won a few Grey Cup Rings in an Alouettes
uniform. Nobody in the league wants a team back in Montreal more than he
does.
You also asked if any Quebecios are in the league. Probably the most
recognizable name is Tommy Kane...but he retired so I guess he doesn't
count anymore.
Cheers...Dave Barry
pdbutcher
You answered every single solitary question I had on that subject.
Thanks alot!
Dan the Colt Fan
Robin Griller
is that, while big crowds (50-60,000+) went to the Big Ouch for a few
years, it is, by all reports, just about the worst stadium there is.
One of the problems the Expos have is that people just don't want to
see any sport there. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is another
stadium of reasonable size/condition in Montreal. Or is there?
Robin
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
: >Wow, Ravi, you sure know your franchise history.:)
: You answered every single solitary question I had on that subject.
: Thanks alot!
: Dan the Colt Fan
Your welcome Dan. I have a good memory but sources like the 1987
CFL Facts, Figures and Records Book help with questions like yours!
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
: Some great responses to Dan's post, but one thing no one has mentioned
: Robin
You are correct Robin when you say that fans aren't too crazy
about the Big O these days. However it was considered state of the art
back in the 70s. I believe that the next largest stadium in Montreal
may be McGill Stadium (also known as Molson Stadium I think). I think
that it might seat as many as 30000. Don't be surprised if a new CFL
team ended up there although the Big O is a more likely location as
they are desperate for another tenant.
Steve Nagler
Since your questions have been answered in other posts, I'll limit myslef to
one observation about it. The Olympic stadium has to be one of the
WORST stadiums I have ever seen for football, and I think the Montreal teams'
(Als & Concordes) playing in that cavernous barn of concrete helped drive
away the fans.
-SN
Trevor Fenton
>From: rram...@superior.carleton.ca (Ravi Ramkissoonsingh)
>Subject: Re: Just curious about the ALOUETTES
>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 07:59:26 GMT
>pdbutcher (pbut...@digex.net) wrote:
>: Yea, I was just wondering what exactly destroyed the Montreal Alouettes.
>: Was it poor management? Low fan interest? I mean if it was low fan
>: interest, how did that happen? This, I thought used to be one of the
>: most successful teams in the CFL. Why is everyone so against expansion
>: to Montreal? Is the city that anti football? Anyone remember what their
>: attendance was like the last couple of years? What did their uniforms
>: and logo look like. One last question, are there any quebecois in the
>: CFL.
>: Dan the Colt Fan
> I would say that it was a combination of low fan interest and
>poor management that killed the Alouettes (moreso low fan interest).
[some excellent stuff deleted for brevity...]
As Dan said in a follow-up, you sure have the franchise history down. I just
wanted to comment on your mention of Quebecois in the CFL. You did mention a
few. However, I think the biggest reason for the Alouettes failing was their
inability to find a French-Quebecois hero for their team. The names you
mentioned (Raby and Vercheval) were/are o-linemen, no?
Don't get me wrong, I think the o-linemen are the stars of the game (a
biased opinion... I played C, OG, OT and TE in high school :-) but they don'
t get the credit. The best o-linemen in the game are lucky to get passing
mention in sports coverage.
My point is that (and I think you implied this with your comments about
the PQ victory in 1976 and the subsequent exodus of Anglos from Quebec) the
Als depended too heavily on the Anglophone population for their fan support.
For all of their best efforts, they could not come up with a French-
Canadian star. What they needed was a QB or WR who would become the Guy
Lafleur of the CFL. Their inability to do so undoubtedly made it difficult
for Francophones to identify the team.
trev
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trevor Fenton
519 725-7257
John Edwards
> Robin Griller (rgri...@blues.epas.utoronto.ca) wrote:
> : Some great responses to Dan's post, but one thing no one has mentioned
> : is that, while big crowds (50-60,000+) went to the Big Ouch for a few
> : years, it is, by all reports, just about the worst stadium there is.
> : One of the problems the Expos have is that people just don't want to
> : see any sport there. Unfortunately, I don't believe there is another
> : stadium of reasonable size/condition in Montreal. Or is there?
> You are correct Robin when you say that fans aren't too crazy
> about the Big O these days. However it was considered state of the art
> back in the 70s. I believe that the next largest stadium in Montreal
> may be McGill Stadium (also known as Molson Stadium I think). I think
> that it might seat as many as 30000. Don't be surprised if a new CFL
> team ended up there although the Big O is a more likely location as
> they are desperate for another tenant.
Molson Stadium? Unless my memory fails me, there is no way Molson
Stadium seats 30 000. I've been past it, and don't remember it being
anywhere near that large.
I don't think there is any other really viable stadium in Montreal.
Concordia's _maybe_ holds 5 000-6 000. I think the Autostade was torn
down after the Big Owe opened. Not that it matters, I'm told the
Autostade was just dreadful as well.
One other thing that is pushing CFL-to-Montreal talk is the fact that
the Montreal Machine was one of the most successful WLAF franchises.
Personally, I don't think the CFL would fly in Montreal. First,
Montreal is a lousy sports town. Unless you're a hockey team named the
Canadiens, you won't succeed in Montreal. Second, Montreal has the same
world-class-itis as Toronto. I suspect people there would think the
CFL is beneath them.
Of course, I would be happy to be proven wrong.
See you later,
John
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Edwards Stats Geek, _________
Carleton University, Law IV Ottawa Jr. Senators / /\ \
(13-9-1 27 pts) / / \ \
Email: jedw...@chat.carleton.ca | |()| |
or aa...@freenet.carleton.ca **UDM 10/16/94** | __| |__ |
Nothing's predictable in this tough, harsh, highly competitive \ |________|/
world, where today's champion is tomorrow's crocodile shit. \_________/
GO B.C. LIONS!!!! C.F.L.'S? B.F.D.!!! Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
3A...@qucdn.queensu.ca
>
>Yea, I was just wondering what exactly destroyed the Montreal Alouettes.
>Was it poor management? Low fan interest? I mean if it was low fan
>interest, how did that happen? This, I thought used to be one of the
>most successful teams in the CFL. Why is everyone so against expansion
>to Montreal? Is the city that anti football? Anyone remember what their
Montreal is not so much anti-football as it is blind to anything that a) is not
a winner or b) is not Les Montreal Candiens... the Expos, despite having a good
team for the past few years often plays to crowds of 12,000 or less...
attendance only started to pick up in the month or so before the strike and
it was still low compared to other cities, despite being at the top of the
league (I think they were pulling in 30,000 just before the strike)
Now if major league baseball can't do well in Montreal, what chance does
CFL football have? If you want some indication of how pro leagues aside from
the NHL consider the fact that NBA expansion went to Toronto and Vancouver,
Montreal wasn't even considered!
Does anyone now what crowds the Machine was getting when the WLAF was up and
running?
Greg Salter
> about the Big O these days. However it was considered state of the art
> back in the 70s. I believe that the next largest stadium in Montreal
> may be McGill Stadium (also known as Molson Stadium I think). I think
> that it might seat as many as 30000. Don't be surprised if a new CFL
> team ended up there although the Big O is a more likely location as
> they are desperate for another tenant.
Ravi,
I've never been to Montreal, but I've watched a few CIAU games from McGill, and
it certainly doesn't look like 30,000 to me. More like 5,000.
--
=========================================================================
Greg Salter Internet: greg_...@mindlink.bc.ca
Coquitlam, B.C. CompuServe: 72550,2271
=========================================================================
Robin Griller
reading (I was out of the country when they existed), they drew 30,000
odd fans most games. Suggests football is viable in Montreal--if the
WLAF wasn't regarded as highly bush, why would the CFL?
Robin
Alexander James Stack
|> > You are correct Robin when you say that fans aren't too crazy
|> > about the Big O these days. However it was considered state of the art
|> > back in the 70s. I believe that the next largest stadium in Montreal
|> > may be McGill Stadium (also known as Molson Stadium I think). I think
|> > that it might seat as many as 30000. Don't be surprised if a new CFL
|> > team ended up there although the Big O is a more likely location as
|> > they are desperate for another tenant.
|>
|> Ravi,
|>
|> I've never been to Montreal, but I've watched a few CIAU games from McGill, and
|> it certainly doesn't look like 30,000 to me. More like 5,000.
|>
5000? No way, it's a lot bigger than that. I'd guess about 20000
(it looks about the same size as Varsity...)
Alex
Peter Ellis
of the Alouettes was some financial mis-management. The owner in the late
1970s was Nelson Scalbania (who also had interests in the WHA at the time).
He was known for attracting big-name, big-money talent north to Montreal and,
while this led to some success on the field, it also drained the club of
a fair amount of cash. Among others, Scalbania signed Vince Ferragamo,
Billy (White Shoes) Johnson, Tom Cousineau, David Overstreet and Fred
Belitnekoff (sp?). I saw an interview with Ferragamo who was "reminiscing"
about his time in Montreal and noting that he certainly didn't get paid
what he was owed.
Eventually the losses mounted and Scalbania sold the team, although I can't
remember to who. As the fan base shrunk, the losses continued and, I believe
sometime around 1982, they changed the team name to the Montreal Concorde.
At the time, I believe, the team was owned by a number of Montreal
businessmen who made many other efforts to market the team and draw out more
fans. After a few years as the Concorde, they switched the name back to the
Alouettes, and after another year or so folded.
Uniform-wise, the Alouettes had (at least back in the 50s and 60s, a red, white
and green colour scheme, which I rather liked. The helmets were white and
had a kind of a stylized red lower-case "a" logo (or at least that's what I
thought it was). In the mid 70s they switched their colour scheme to red,
white and blue (about the time they moved from the Autostade to Olympic
Stadium). They had blue helmets with a triangular blue-and white combination-
upper-case-a-bird-silouette logo. As the Concorde, their colours stayed the
same but the logo switched to something football shaped containing a stylized
"C". In their last stint as the Alouettes, they reverted to the triangular
logo but used a white colour for their helmets.
Peter
Stephen Frederick Bosch
Really, it was a combination of both. The Al's started down the
road to disaster when Skalbania bought the team and got all big
headed (we've heard the Ferragamo story about 300 times now).
Then the bastard bailed.
Another thing that didn't help was the 1980 sovereignty
referendum. The Al's base of support came from anglophone
Montrealers, and when the referendum rolled around, many of them
bailed.
Last I checked, the anglophone population in Montreal was at
about 650 000, which by rights *should* be able to support a
football team, although if you look at what's been happening in
Calgary, it is no guarantee.
I guess anglo Montrealers are too cosmopolitan (or too jaded,
depending on your point of view) to support virtually any sport.
It's a wonder the Expos are still in town.
There was a little francophone support at one time, but the
alienation caused by the sovereignty question means that most
franco-Quebecers see the CFL as an essentially anglophone
institution.
In what seems to be a kind of pathetic, olive-branch gesture (and
which probably has a lot to do with Larry Smith's attachment to
his home-town and the Alouettes), the CFL continues to display
bilingual logos and descriptors on the field at Grey Cup games.
Sadly, I don't think there's a future in Montreal. Believe me, I
miss the Alouettes...
-Stephen-
Robert Newis
that the Big O is not nearly as bad for football as it is for baseball,
due to the field size and shape. I understand that one of the big problems
with baseball is that many of the seats are a looooong way from the playing
field, but that this is not the case with football. Sure, you still have the
problems with it being cold all year around, etc. but people have put up
with this in the past.
Jungle Bob
Steve Nagler
>rgri...@blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Robin Griller) writes:
>>Some great responses to Dan's post, but one thing no one has mentioned
>>is that, while big crowds (50-60,000+) went to the Big Ouch for a few
>>years, it is, by all reports, just about the worst stadium there is.
>that the Big O is not nearly as bad for football as it is for baseball,
From first hand experience, I can tell you that the Olympic Stadium is awful
for football games. I rank it below Exhibition Stadium, Empire Stadium,
Ivor Wynne, Lansdowne Park (Frank Claire, whatever), McMahon, you name it.
The seats on the sidelines are very far away from the action, it feels
cavernous, and has almost no warmth.
I guess it has the advantage of accomodating a large crowd.
The only other possible venues in Montreal are too old or too small though.
I doubt that anyone will pay good money to go to the autostade.
-SN
MPR...@bclands.crl.gov.bc.ca
Autostade (on the grounds of the old Expo 67 site) and, after that,
the Big "Owe". Heck, I even used to deliver the Montreal Star to
Larry Smith's mother in law when she lived in Pointe Claire. He was
often there and we had some good chats. Sadly, I don't see Montrealers
supporting CFL football any more than when they did (or did not in
1981ish).
Long live the Als.
>
>-Stephen-
>
Best regards,
Mark A. Price
Sr. Research Analyst, Real Estate Services Branch
Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks
Greg Salter
> other possible venues in Montreal are too old or too small though. I
> doubt that anyone will pay good money to go to the autostade.
Steve,
I thought they tore the Autostade down years and years ago?
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
: From first hand experience, I can tell you that the Olympic Stadium is awful
: for football games. I rank it below Exhibition Stadium, Empire Stadium,
: Ivor Wynne, Lansdowne Park (Frank Claire, whatever), McMahon, you name it.
: The seats on the sidelines are very far away from the action, it feels
: cavernous, and has almost no warmth.
: I guess it has the advantage of accomodating a large crowd.
: The only other possible venues in Montreal are too old or too small though.
: I doubt that anyone will pay good money to go to the autostade.
: -SN
I am not sure but I believe that the Awful Autostade as it was known
was torn down in the 1970s after the Als moved to the Big O.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
Department of Psychology
Carleton University
Email address: rram...@ccs.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
CUR...@qucdn.queensu.ca
says:
>I guess it has the advantage of accomodating a large crowd.
>The only other possible venues in Montreal are too old or too small though.
>I doubt that anyone will pay good money to go to the autostade.
The Autostade was dismantled about 15 years ago. McGill's Molson
Stadium, as has been previously mentioned, is really the only
alternative to Olympic Stadium. It would seat about 15,000 (a guess).
I seem to remember that the Alouettes actually played there for a year
or two before the Olympic Stadium was built.
Andrew Currie
Queen's University
Kingston, Ontario Canada
Steve Nagler
>I am not sure but I believe that the Awful Autostade as it was known
>was torn down in the 1970s after the Als moved to the Big O.
>
If anybody from Montreal reads this group, maybe they can tell us.
Also, does Jarry Park still exist ?
-SN
Stephen Frederick Bosch
>I guess it has the advantage of accomodating a large crowd.
>The only other possible venues in Montreal are too old or too small though.
>I doubt that anyone will pay good money to go to the autostade.
Especially since it's a parking lot. :)
-Stephen-
Ravi Ramkissoonsingh
: Also, does Jarry Park still exist ?
: -SN
Jarry Park does still exist Steve except that they use it exclusively
for tennis if I am not mistaken.
CUR...@qucdn.queensu.ca
says:
>Also, does Jarry Park still exist ?
Yes, but it was converted to a tennis stadium several years ago.
About the only kind of football you could play there would be
arenaball. Besides, baseball stadiums rarely make good
football stadiums and vice versa.
Stuart Collings
Steve:
You obviously never saw the stadium the Als played in just prior to moving
to the Big Owe. The Autostade DEFINITELY was the worst football stadium
ever to have existed. It was designed and built to be a "movable" stadium
(hence the Auto in Autostade). It had approximately 20 sections that were
mounted on axles and wheels so it could be moved to various locations. (Why,
you ask? <shrug> I dunno.) It was built in 1966 to be used for Expo 67,
and was located on Nun's Island, just a couple hundred yards away from the
Expo islands.
The Autostade had 33,000 seats. Unfortunately, with its modular design,
fully two-thirds of the seats were located BEHIND the 10 yard lines (ie
the endzones). Seats around midfield were comparatively scarce, but sight
lines were pretty decent. As I recall, I paid $17 for a 45 yard line seat
in 1975 (or thereabouts). I still remember the game too, the result of
which would prolly warm the cockles of Keith Willoughby's heart.
The Als, led by Sonny Wade, were hosting the big bad Green Machine led by
some guy named Lancaster ;-) (With a name like that you'd think he
should've played for the bombers, no?) The Als were leading till about
1:17 on the clock (exact figures are vague remembrances only). Lancaster
through a bomb down a seam to number 24 Tom Campana (ARRRGGGHHHHH! even
typing the name sends my blood a-boiling! :) ) Needless to say, the
Green Riders scored on the play and won (by 2 points??? The score is real
hazy).
So, suffice it to say that compared with the Autostade, the Big Owe is a
perfect stadium. Btw, the Autostade is no more. It was torn down several
years ago because neglect had caused severe rust damage. The muddy field
in which it sat remains empty to this day (just off the Bonaventure
Expressway near the Champlain Bridge).
Ahhh doan neeed no steeeeenkink hisssstory boooooks! <grin>
Stuart Collings
ae...@freenet.carleton.ca
Stuart Collings
Trevor:
The Concordes signed Luc Tousignant to play QB for them, but he never got
a chance to start. His signing bonus (as I recall) was the ticket rights
to the Trois-Rivieres region of Quebec, where he had played university
football.
Stuart Collings
ae...@freenet.carleton.ca
Greg Salter
> does Jarry Park still exist ?
Steve,
It does, it's been used for professional tennis for years now. I don't believe
it's suitable for football though (or baseball anymore).
Can someone tell me about the Autostade? That was before my time. How big was
it. What kind of style (bowl, grandstands, etc)? What made it so "awful"?
Linda Cunningham
curious about the ALOUETTES)"....
SN> Also, does Jarry Park still exist ?
Yes, it was converted to a tennis stadium and is the Montreal venue of the
Canadian Men's and Women's Open Tournaments (odd number years for men, even for
women, I think). The other tournament is held in Toronto.
Linda
Robert Newis
ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stuart Collings) writes:
>
>The Concordes signed Luc Tousignant to play QB for them, but he never got
>a chance to start. His signing bonus (as I recall) was the ticket rights
>to the Trois-Rivieres region of Quebec, where he had played university
>football.
>
>Stuart Collings
>ae...@freenet.carleton.ca
>
not very successful for two reasons. One was a lck of talent. He was not bad
but not really good enough to be a starting quarterback, like many other
young quarterbacks who get pushed into the starting role too quickly. I guess
the team felt a need to get him in as soon as possible simply because he was
Quebecois. Also, I think that there were communication problems in the huddle.
I don't remeber if it was due to his being less than fluent in English, or if
it was just a problem with his accent. Either way, you do not want to have
the quarterback and his team not communicating effectively in the huddle.
Jungle Bob
CUR...@qucdn.queensu.ca
Salter) says:
>
>Can someone tell me about the Autostade? That was before my time. How big was
>it. What kind of style (bowl, grandstands, etc)? What made it so "awful"?
>
Pre-fab bench seating. I guess you would call it bowl-style.
It was supposed to be a temporary stadium built in conjunction
with Expo 67 on a former garbage dump. It was in the middle of nowhere.
Lots of parking though.
Jonathan C. Enslin
>Date: 30 Nov 1994 16:21:32 GMT
>(Ravi Ramkissoonsingh) writes:
>>I am not sure but I believe that the Awful Autostade as it was known
>>was torn down in the 1970s after the Als moved to the Big O.
>>
Wasn't there a team in Montreal for just one year after the Alouettes
folded - the Montreal Metros??
Jon
CUR...@qucdn.queensu.ca
The Alouettes folded and were replaced by the Concordes.
The owners of the Concordes eventually arranged to use
the Alouettes name. The team folded for good in '87 while
called the Alouettes.
The Montreal franchise in the WAFL was called "The Machine".
I suspect that is the name you are thinking of. The only
other possibility would be the Montreal team in the NASL
(soccer football) that was called the Manic. However, they
predeceased the Alouettes.