GREAT SHIRTFRONTS
Dettol
1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
2. Stan "the man" Magro on Alex Jesaulenko ; Princes Park 1979
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
Mike
Samuel GLASSON
Dettol (mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu) wrote:
: 1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
: 2. Stan "the man" Magro on Alex Jesaulenko ; Princes Park 1979
: 4.
: 5.
: 6.
: 7.
: 8.
: 9.
: 10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
: Mike
--
Bob Williams
sgla...@ecr.mu.oz.au (Samuel GLASSON) wrote:
> Dettol (mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu) wrote:
> : 1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
> : 2. Stan "the man" Magro on Alex Jesaulenko ; Princes Park 1979
> : 3. Shane Watson on Paul Salmon a few years ago
> : 4. Eric "Tank" Guy on Bob Skilton in the 60's, at the Lake Oval I think
Jerome Rivalland
rowi...@dove.mtx.net.au (Bob Williams) writes:
a
Mal "Menace" Brown and Neil "Balmey" Balme tag teaming every back pocket
ie KINGhits!
Shaun
Dettol <mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
>2. Stan "the man" Magro on Alex Jesaulenko ; Princes Park 1979
>3.
>5.
>6.
>7.
>8.
>9.
>10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
>
>
>Mike
That Ray Card shirtfront was simply brilliant.
Earl Spalding on Guy McKenna last year was pretty decent also.
Don't know where it would rate in top ten though,
Card's and Magro's are defintely number 1 and 2 as you have above.
Don't even remember this one you have at number ten.
Anthony Almond Student 03-98
Bob Williams (rowi...@dove.mtx.net.au) wrote:
: sgla...@ecr.mu.oz.au (Samuel GLASSON) wrote:
: > Dettol (mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu) wrote:
: > : 1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
: > : 2. Stan "the man" Magro on Alex Jesaulenko ; Princes Park 1979
: > : 3. Shane Watson on Paul Salmon a few years ago
: > : 4. Eric "Tank" Guy on Bob Skilton in the 60's, at the Lake Oval I think
: > : 5.
: > : 6.
: > : 7.
: > : 8.
: > : 9.
: > : 10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
: > : Mike
: > --
How about Chris Bond on Ryan O'Connor in the draw in 1995. It was one of
the funniest things I've seen on a footy field. Bond is about half O'Connor'
s height and weight (well, he looks about that size). He ran into him at
full pace, and gave him a full-blooded (but fair) hip and shoulder. Bond
basically bounced back, got up and ran off. O'Connor had to get stretchered
off. That was an impressive bump.
Tone
--
----------------------------------------------------
| "It's all coming out into the open |
| And I'm licking your hand all over." |
----------------------------------------------------
Weaver
ST-...@artemis.earth.monash.edu.au (Anthony Almond Student 03-98)
wrote:
>: > : Mike
>: > --
Or Merenda on Direen this year out at Waverley, perfectly fair and
Direen carried off AND missed three weeks. Merenda plays on, and sets
up a goal.
--
Damian Streets
Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The pessimist is the man who believes things couldn't possibly be
worse, to which the optimist replies: 'Oh yes they could!' "
V. Bukovsky.
Gerard McDermott
In <573u4s$k...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> Shaun <SDB...@student.monash.edu.au> writes:
>Dettol <mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
>>2. Stan "the man" Magro on Alex Jesaulenko ; Princes Park 1979
>>3.
>>4.
>>5.
>>6.
>>7.
>>8.
>>9.
>>10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
>>
>>
>>Mike
>That Ray Card shirtfront was simply brilliant.
>Earl Spalding on Guy McKenna last year was pretty decent also.
This one was good because of the message it sent to the opposition.
>Don't know where it would rate in top ten though,
>Card's and Magro's are defintely number 1 and 2 as you have above.
>Don't even remember this one you have at number ten.
Here's some others...
Dermott Brereton on Paul Van Der Haar 1989 Semi (?) Final
Ross Glendinning on Billy Duckworth (early eighties all I can remember)
Micheal Voss on Richardson early last year at the Gabba.
Brereton's got the Hawks into the 1989 Grand Final.
Gerard.
Peter Ryan
Dettol <mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
>>2. Stan "the man" Magro on Alex Jesaulenko ; Princes Park 1979
>>3.
>>4.
>>5.
>>6.
>>7.
>>8.
>>9.
>>10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
I saw the Card-Greig collision live (my own teeth haven't finished
rattling yet). I agree that it was the best shirtfront ever. It would
have happened in 1978, because I remember the foundations for the Hickey
Stand had been dug, and Ross Glendinning was playing one of his earliest
games for North that day.
Two other beauties of recent vintage were also by Geelong players against
North, in 1995 at the MCG. Gary Ablett flattened Alex Ischenko (a
smaller man might not have survived) and, a little later, Liam Pickering
laid an even more devastating bump on David King.
Just to even the ledger a bit, I also remember an absolute purler by Ian
Law, also at the MCG. I think the victim was Darren Denneman, so that
would have to make it 1988 (thanks ENCYCLOPEDIA OF LEAGUE FOOTBALLERS!).
Peter Ryan
Steven Bagshaw
Weaver wrote:
>
> Or Merenda on Direen this year out at Waverley, perfectly fair and
> Direen carried off AND missed three weeks. Merenda plays on, and sets
> up a goal.
In my opinion, Direen missed the games because he fell awkwardly on his
neck, little to do with the force or artistry of Merenda's bump.
Of recent times, I must agree with someone else who nominated Voss
cleaning up Collingwood's Richardson. Scott Turner wiped someone out in
the finals last year (against Essendon) - that was fairly brutal yet
effective. Voss' was head-on though and probably a bit gutsier.
And what about Barry Young on Lockett in Round 21, 1996? That Young
guy's a thug! :-)
Steve Bagshaw
Melbourne, Australia
BWEVA1
Shaun <SDB...@student.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>Dettol <mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
>>2. Stan "the man" Magro on Alex Jesaulenko ; Princes Park 1979
>>3.
>>4.
>>5.
>>6.
>>7.
>>8.
>>9.
>>10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
>>
>>
>
>That Ray Card shirtfront was simply brilliant.
>
>Earl Spalding on Guy McKenna last year was pretty decent also.
That was a great one. Earl Spalding on John Howat or Paul Bulluss at
the MCG in 1995 where he put him into the fence was a funny one, if not a
really great one.
I think my favourite one of all time was darren Tarczon on Guy McKenna at
Princess Park in 1991, on the boundary line near the benches. That was
Round 14...West Coast's first loss for the year after a Simon
Minton-Connell goal on the boundary.
Tim Murphy
>Peter Ryan writes:
>Dettol <mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> wrote:
>>>1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
(Snip)
>>>10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
This was an intensely cowardly hit...it was well off the ball, with Pickering
looking the other way. Had it been Ablett or Brereton instead of Miles, there
would have been a hefty suspension involved.
>I saw the Card-Greig collision live (my own teeth haven't finished
>rattling yet). I agree that it was the best shirtfront ever. It would
>have happened in 1978, because I remember the foundations for the Hickey
>Stand had been dug, and Ross Glendinning was playing one of his earliest
>games for North that day.
I went to a sportsman's night last year, and the three guests...Gary Lyon,
Glen Lovett and Crackers Keenan...agreed that the Card/Greig hit was the
heaviest one they'd seen.
Cheers, Tim.
E-mail: Tim.M...@med.monash.edu.au
Spectre
Dettol wrote:
>
> 1. Ray Card on Keith Greig ; Kardinia Park mid 70's
> 4.9.
> 10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
>
If a great shirt front is a euphemism (for you Vics u-far-mizzem)
for putting some one out of the game skillfully and within the rules
then, you bloody parochial VFL supporters would not have seen this one.
In the 1969 SANFL grand final Sturt v Glenelg
Royce Hart played at CHF for Glenelg under the (Vietnam) National
Service rules.
Rick Schoff played at CHB for Sturt
They were respectively current All Australian CHF & CHB
About 10-15 mins in the 1st qtr , Hart was flattened (hip & shoulder)
by Schoff (in an overly aggressive manner? - skillfully done!) and Hart
was as useless as a gelding on a stud farm.
Hart was training with Sturt whilst stationed at Woodside an army base
about 45Km from Adelaide - Sturt thought and expected that he would play
for them, but someone came up with more folding stuff from the Glenelg
camp.
p.s. Glenelg have Tigers colours
Julie
I think everyone shits themselves when they see John Worsfold or Tony
Lockett coming towards them. Worsold on breteton in a final in 1991 (I
think) was great and also the one he dished out to Tony Modra. Also the
one Mark Riccutto (or however you spell it) gave to Kemp this year was
damn fine.
Dettol
<snip>
>
> Dermott Brereton on Paul Van Der Haar 1989 Semi (?) Final
> Ross Glendinning on Billy Duckworth (early eighties all I can remember)
> Micheal Voss on Richardson early last year at the Gabba.
>
> Brereton's got the Hawks into the 1989 Grand Final.
>
> Gerard.
And that reminds me of Mark Bos lining up Brereton in the 89 GF.
Mike
Dettol
Dettol
Steven Bagshaw wrote:
>
> Weaver wrote:
> >
>
> > Or Merenda on Direen this year out at Waverley, perfectly fair and
> > Direen carried off AND missed three weeks. Merenda plays on, and sets
> > up a goal.
>
> In my opinion, Direen missed the games because he fell awkwardly on his
> neck, little to do with the force or artistry of Merenda's bump.
>
> Of recent times, I must agree with someone else who nominated Voss
> cleaning up Collingwood's Richardson. Scott Turner wiped someone out in
> the finals last year (against Essendon) - that was fairly brutal yet
> effective.
I'd forgotten that one. The celebrations that day must have effected my
memory. It was O'donnell that Turner cleaned up.
Go tiges
Mike
Richard Scott
That was a Yeats, I believe...
Richard Scott (rsc...@hawaii.edu)
" Steve I've gotta say Thank You,
For what you've done for me.
The nights are dark and lonely
When you're not on TV. " - Radio Birdman
Greg Breen
In article <TIM-M.109...@med.monash.edu.au>
TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) writes:
[snip]
>>>>10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
>This was an intensely cowardly hit...it was well off the ball, with Pickering
>looking the other way. Had it been Ablett or Brereton instead of Miles, there
>would have been a hefty suspension involved.
I agree with all that. But I'd also say that it was extremely similar to
Turner on O'Donnell in the 95 Semi Final, and I'd be interested to
hear your opinion on that one. :)
[snip]
---------------------------------
Greg Breen
JTEC R&D Perth, Western Australia
eMail: Greg....@jtec.com.au
Dan Sprague
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Met
Dettol <mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> wrote:
><snip>
>
>And that reminds me of Mark Bos lining up Brereton in the 89 GF.
>
>Mike
It was Mark Yeates that cleaned up Dermie actually. I am a Geelong
supporter but since that day I have a lot of respect for Dermie.
His bravery in getting up after that bump and taking a mark
and then kicking a goal early in the first quarter in that Grand
Final seemed to fire up the whole Hawthorn team. History shows
that the Hawks went wild in that first quarter, building up a
big lead by quarter time which the Cats were never going to
overhall.
Steve
Tim Murphy
>Greg Breen writes:
>In article <TIM-M.109...@med.monash.edu.au>
>TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) writes:
>[snip]
>>>>>10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
>>This was an intensely cowardly hit...it was well off the ball, with Pickering
>>looking the other way. Had it been Ablett or Brereton instead of Miles, there
>>would have been a hefty suspension involved.
>I agree with all that. But I'd also say that it was extremely similar to
>Turner on O'Donnell in the 95 Semi Final, and I'd be interested to
>hear your opinion on that one. :)
One important difference...the ball was in close proximity, O'Donnell was
actually in the act of trying to smother the kick of the Richmond player. As I
remember the Miles/Pickering thing was at least 15m away from the ball
(and it was at Subi, I recall, not VFL Park).
Having said that, Turner's bump was also high and unnecessary, and came
from O'Donnell's blind side too. The umpires could not help but have seen it,
and there was ample video evidence, yet they did nothing. But it was
charging and again, had a more high-profile player than "Shutdown
Scottie" been involved I'm sure much more would have come of it.
And I'm sure if Richmond hadn't come from five goals down to silence the red
and black hordes and their loopy coach, who'd just benched his two most
effective forwards (Alessio and Lloyd) for reasons unknown to anyone but his
own lunatic self, I'd feel much worse about it :-).
Cheers, Tim.
E-mail:Tim.M...@med.monash.edu.au
Dettol
<snip>
>
> >I agree with all that. But I'd also say that it was extremely similar to
> >Turner on O'Donnell in the 95 Semi Final, and I'd be interested to
> >hear your opinion on that one. :)
>
> One important difference...the ball was in close proximity, O'Donnell was
> actually in the act of trying to smother the kick of the Richmond player. As I
> remember the Miles/Pickering thing was at least 15m away from the ball
> (and it was at Subi, I recall, not VFL Park).
Definitely at Arctic park Tim. It happened right in front of where I was sitting (half
forward flank with pickering running toward the small scorboard). Must have been all
of 6000 people there.
>
> Having said that, Turner's bump was also high and unnecessary, and came
> from O'Donnell's blind side too. The umpires could not help but have seen it,
> and there was ample video evidence, yet they did nothing. But it was
> charging and again, had a more high-profile player than "Shutdown
> Scottie" been involved I'm sure much more would have come of it.
>
> And I'm sure if Richmond hadn't come from five goals down to silence the red
> and black hordes and their loopy coach, who'd just benched his two most
> effective forwards (Alessio and Lloyd) for reasons unknown to anyone but his
> own lunatic self, I'd feel much worse about it :-).
...and cost the bombers the game by trying to be too much of a coaching smartarse.
Sheedy is a whinger. Lets hope he never gets back to richmond.
Mike
Gerard McDermott
><snip>
>>
>> Dermott Brereton on Paul Van Der Haar 1989 Semi (?) Final
>> Ross Glendinning on Billy Duckworth (early eighties all I can remember)
>> Micheal Voss on Richardson early last year at the Gabba.
>>
>> Brereton's got the Hawks into the 1989 Grand Final.
>>
>> Gerard.
>And that reminds me of Mark Bos lining up Brereton in the 89 GF.
It was actually Yeates. Blight has since admitted that this was a
premeditated tactic in response to what Brereton did to Essendon two
weeks earlier. From Sports Weekly last year, "Blight said that the
collision was contrived on the eve of the match out of a concern
that the then Hawk champion might seek to wreak on the Cats the
carnage he was responsible for against Essendon in the second semi
final. [...] Blight says 'I thought we should put something in plan
in case he does it to us.'"
Don't forget, it's one thing to be put down by a solid shirt front,
it's another to kick a goal a few minutes later while you're still
trying recover. The way Brereton handed out the shirtfront in the
Semi got the Hawks into the Grand Final. The way he received the
shirtfront at the start of the Grand Final helped the Hawks win it.
With Dermie nobody else could ever win.
Gerard.
Peter
What about the AFL's shirtfront on Fitzroy? That would have to be the
dirtiest, most malicious and unsporting act ever seen in the game's
history. Don't believe this Brisbane merger crap, we all know that's
just a convenient half-witted way to try and make Brisbane viable away
from the Gabba. I hope those AFL mongrels were at the MCG at Fitzroy's
last ever Melbourne game to see the result of their ten year campaign to
destroy the Lions. IT WAS BLOODY TRAGIC. Ross Oakley that is your legacy
and you'll have to live with that.
Gerard McDermott
It is nice to be able to blame somebody else but let's face facts.
Fitzroy could not effectively manage themselves. They could not make
money. They had few supporters going to games. They gave away any
players who were half decent.
Fitzroy deserved to fail. ANY team who can not run themselves in a
professional manner deserves to fail.
Let's not get all confused by emotional bullshit or AFL conspiracy
theories. Blame the people who were running the club. Blame the
ones who got rid of good players for bad ones. Blame the people
who didn't take advantage of the early draft picks.
In a few years time, when my beloved Hawks go down the gurgler as
well, I will not be crying about the AFL. I'll be placing the blame
on the administration of the last few years and on the anti-merger
voters who robbed the club of any chance of being strong like the
Carltons, Collingwoods or Essendons of the league.
If a club folds it is THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT.
Gerard.
Tim Murphy
>Gerard McDermott writes:
(Bits deleted)
>Fitzroy deserved to fail. ANY team who can not run themselves in a
>professional manner deserves to fail.
>Let's not get all confused by emotional bullshit or AFL conspiracy
>theories. Blame the people who were running the club. Blame the
>ones who got rid of good players for bad ones. Blame the people
>who didn't take advantage of the early draft picks.
>In a few years time, when my beloved Hawks go down the gurgler as
>well, I will not be crying about the AFL. I'll be placing the blame
>on the administration of the last few years and on the anti-merger
>voters who robbed the club of any chance of being strong like the
>Carltons, Collingwoods or Essendons of the league.
>If a club folds it is THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT.
Technically, South Melbourne and the Sydney Swans have folded three times in
the last 14 years. Yet thanks to an Amazonian-like river of AFL cash, they've
not only survived but prospered. How 'bout that.
Cheers, Tim.
Greg Breen
In article <TIM-M.110...@med.monash.edu.au>
TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) writes:
>>Greg Breen writes:
>>In article <TIM-M.109...@med.monash.edu.au>
>>TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) writes:
>>[snip]
>>>>>>10. Geoff Miles on Michael Pickering ; VFL Park (was it 1990?)
>>>This was an intensely cowardly hit...it was well off the ball, with Pickering
>>>looking the other way. Had it been Ablett or Brereton instead of Miles, there
>>>would have been a hefty suspension involved.
>>I agree with all that. But I'd also say that it was extremely similar to
>>Turner on O'Donnell in the 95 Semi Final, and I'd be interested to
>>hear your opinion on that one. :)
>One important difference...the ball was in close proximity, O'Donnell was
>actually in the act of trying to smother the kick of the Richmond player. As I
>remember the Miles/Pickering thing was at least 15m away from the ball
Well that's not how I remember it. Certainly the ball may may have been closer
than 15m, but I don't recall O'Donnell "actually in the act of trying to
smother". Rather, O'Donnell was jogging along watching the play (perhaps
a second or two after trying to smother). And he didn't see Turner coming
at all, cos he was watching the ball, but Turner was watching him.
>(and it was at Subi, I recall, not VFL Park).
No. The Miles one was in Victoria I'm quite sure.
>Having said that, Turner's bump was also high and unnecessary, and came
>from O'Donnell's blind side too. The umpires could not help but have seen it,
>and there was ample video evidence, yet they did nothing. But it was
>charging and again, had a more high-profile player than "Shutdown
>Scottie" been involved I'm sure much more would have come of it.
Quite probably.
>And I'm sure if Richmond hadn't come from five goals down to silence the red
>and black hordes and their loopy coach, who'd just benched his two most
>effective forwards (Alessio and Lloyd) for reasons unknown to anyone but his
>own lunatic self, I'd feel much worse about it :-).
His is loony isn't he? Still though, I don't mind the fact that Turner did
what he did, cos I hate Essendon and was more than happy to see them
get eliminated that day too. :)
Herbie
In article <TIM-M.111...@med.monash.edu.au>,
TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) wrote:
Not quite true, Tim. When South Melbourne was bought out, and then moved
North, they were under the VFL banner. It was at this point the 12 VFL
clubs decided to look into the matter, and a national AFL comp was born.
When West Coast and Brisbane were admitted into the (for the last time)
VFL, they were the only clubs required to cough up the hefty entrance
fee. This money was returned as a dividend to the other 12 VFL clubs.
Remember, at this stage, Sydney, like West Coast and Brisbane were
technically companies, not members' clubs.
Sydney survived because a dedicated (and powerful) support base petitioned
the VFL/AFL to allow exetended payment of debt. The AFL has never 'thrown
cash' at Sydney. The AFL will never 'throw cash' at any club in danger.
And nor should they. Gerard is perfectly right; If a club can't manage
its' affairs, then they are a burden on the competion. The AFL will
guide, suggest, and inform, but will never dictate. Each clubs' fate are
in their own hands.
--
"They put a hotwire to my head 'cause of the things I did and said and made these feelings go away, model citizen in every way." - J Lydon
C J Smith
The Dominator, Wayne Johnston on Dermie in the first few minutes of the
'87 Grand Final wasn't bad either.
Cam
Rob Barber
Peter <pet...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in article
<32A30A...@ozemail.com.au>...
> (snip)
>Well said Peter, The AFL has got a lot to answer for. It was those pricks
that let
the West Coast Wankers in the VFL in the first place. They destroyed
footy when
Aylett(The Poofter Dentist)went all out to send South to Sydney.
>
Dettol
<snip>
>
> The other argument is that Sydney, with 4M people, is a massive support base.
> This may be true, but ignores the fact that Sydney is not a footy town
> and probably never will be. Sure they've done well this year, filling the
> ground a few times, but we all remember back to 1986/7, when the same thing
> happened, only for the crowds to disappear as soon as the success
> vanished. To a certain extent this happens with all teams...my own
> team Richmond, for example...except that the Swans have few
> supporters to start with. Contrast this with Adelaide, which has 1/3 the
> population of Sydney but 40,000 people are members of the Crows, and no doubt
> Port Adelaide will be pushing them before long. The "supporter base" argument
> is a spurious one. Why not stick a team in Mexico City? There's 15 M there.
If they moved to Mexico City bloody Sheedy would be whinging that the swans were being
given an advantage by the AFL by being able to train and play at altitude!!
Imagine signor plugger lining up for goal in up in front of hysterical mexican fans
hmmm... viva signor plugger!
Mike
Dettol
...and the terminator, Jimmy Buckley in his car...
Mike
Rob
In article <TIM-M.111...@med.monash.edu.au>, TI...@med.monash.edu.au says...
>
>
>Technically, South Melbourne and the Sydney Swans have folded three times in
>the last 14 years. Yet thanks to an Amazonian-like river of AFL cash, they've
>not only survived but prospered. How 'bout that.
Yet when Fitzroy get financial grants from Nauru and other financial
institutions they not only go broke again, but let the AFL pay them back.
And your suggestion would have been.....I KNOW!!!! THE AFL SHOULD PUMP
EVEN MORE MONEY INTO FITZROY!!!!!! A drain would have been more financially
responsible.
--
=============================================================================
Dockers for Premiers 97.
Laugh of the week:
"Hopefully we can go one better next year"
Peter Matera.
That'll put you in 4th, Pete.
=============================================================================
Richard Scott
Tim, I am sure the NFL will beat the AFL in putting a team in Azteca
stadium, a lot more Cowboys supporters there than Tigers. :)
Tim Murphy
>Herbie writes:
>Not quite true, Tim. When South Melbourne was bought out,
Whoa. Who bought them out? The then-VFL, of course. South Melbourne were
riddled with debt and on the point of folding. The VFL offered to pay off all
their debts if they moved to Sydney. In fact, an anecdote cropped up last
year (I forget the source) where the Swans' manager at the time sent an
office boy to the bank with the cheque and he promptly lost it. The manager
had to rather sheepishly ring the VFL and ask for another. Anyway the rest, as
they say, is history. League cash averts fold # 1.
Of course Fitzroy could have followed this path. The AFL offered them plenty
of cash if they moved to Brisbane in 1986, or if they merged with the Doggies
in 1989, or even if they merged with anyone earlier this year. But they
didn't, so no hand-out for them.
>and then moved
>North, they were under the VFL banner. It was at this point the 12 VFL
>clubs decided to look into the matter, and a national AFL comp was born.
>When West Coast and Brisbane were admitted into the (for the last time)
>VFL, they were the only clubs required to cough up the hefty entrance
>fee. This money was returned as a dividend to the other 12 VFL clubs.
>Remember, at this stage, Sydney, like West Coast and Brisbane were
>technically companies, not members' clubs.
Yeah yeah...all the clubs got some of that money. But we're kinda forgetting
the Edelsten era, aren't we? By the time Dr. Geoff pulled out, the Swans were
massively in debt. Dr. Geoff was so glad to get out he sold the licence to
the AFL for $1. Players weren't being paid. The entire thing was a mess. The
AFL had to weigh in and fix things. League cash averts fold # 2.
>Sydney survived because a dedicated (and powerful) support base petitioned
>the VFL/AFL to allow exetended payment of debt. The AFL has never 'thrown
>cash' at Sydney. The AFL will never 'throw cash' at any club in danger.
>And nor should they. Gerard is perfectly right; If a club can't manage
>its' affairs, then they are a burden on the competion. The AFL will
>guide, suggest, and inform, but will never dictate. Each clubs' fate are
>in their own hands.
Ah yes. I presume the "dedicated and powerful" support base is the Willesee
group? Yes, they've done well. But not without the debt restructuring you
refer to above, and they have been...let's say..."lent" plenty of money from
the AFL. League cash averts fold # 3. And it's still involved plenty of cash
being "lent". Even as recently as the beginning of this year, the Swans were
given $0.9 M.
In fact the AFL Commissioners got quite angry about the donations to the
Swans, until it was pointed out that the AFL could demand much more cash in TV
rights and ground signage at the SCG due to the television audiences generated
by Swans' home games. So in effect the Swans earn their keep this way, is the
argument. Of course, the vast majority of people don't tune in to see Sydney,
but their team playing against Sydney.
The other argument is that Sydney, with 4M people, is a massive support base.
This may be true, but ignores the fact that Sydney is not a footy town
and probably never will be. Sure they've done well this year, filling the
ground a few times, but we all remember back to 1986/7, when the same thing
happened, only for the crowds to disappear as soon as the success
vanished. To a certain extent this happens with all teams...my own
team Richmond, for example...except that the Swans have few
supporters to start with. Contrast this with Adelaide, which has 1/3 the
population of Sydney but 40,000 people are members of the Crows, and no doubt
Port Adelaide will be pushing them before long. The "supporter base" argument
is a spurious one. Why not stick a team in Mexico City? There's 15 M there.
I fully agree that if a club can't survive, they should go to the wall. And
this should apply equally to all clubs. If the Sydney experiment failed, then
so be it.
Cheers, Tim.
E-mail:Tim.M...@med.monash.edu.au
Peter Ryan
Greg....@jtec.com.au (Greg Breen) wrote:
>In article <TIM-M.110...@med.monash.edu.au>
>TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) writes:
>
>>>Turner on O'Donnell in the 95 Semi Final, and I'd be interested to
>>>hear your opinion on that one. :)
>
>>One important difference...the ball was in close proximity, O'Donnell was
>>actually in the act of trying to smother the kick of the Richmond player.
>Well that's not how I remember it. Certainly the ball may may have been closer
>than 15m, but I don't recall O'Donnell "actually in the act of trying to
>smother". Rather, O'Donnell was jogging along watching the play (perhaps
>a second or two after trying to smother). And he didn't see Turner coming
>at all, cos he was watching the ball, but Turner was watching him.
As I remember it, the ball was much more than 15 metres away. It had
been kicked clear. O'Donnell had turned away from his attempted smother
and his attention was on the play further up the field. Despite this,
Turner lined him up from some distance away. Like Gary Ablett, I'm a bit
unclear on the charging rules but there was no doubt this particular
tackle was a charge. I was flabbergasted when there was no report.
>>Having said that, Turner's bump was also high and unnecessary, and came
>>from O'Donnell's blind side too. The umpires could not help but have seen it,
>>and there was ample video evidence, yet they did nothing. But it was
>>charging and again, had a more high-profile player than "Shutdown
>>Scottie" been involved I'm sure much more would have come of it.
>
>Quite probably.
>
>>And I'm sure if Richmond hadn't come from five goals down to silence the red
>>and black hordes and their loopy coach, who'd just benched his two most
>>effective forwards (Alessio and Lloyd) for reasons unknown to anyone but his
>>own lunatic self, I'd feel much worse about it :-).
>His is loony isn't he? Still though, I don't mind the fact that Turner did
>what he did, cos I hate Essendon and was more than happy to see them
>get eliminated that day too. :)
I don't like Essendon either, and I was pleased to see them eliminated
that day too. But my dislike doesn't extend to wishing to see Essendon
players injured - and especially by illegal tackles.
Peter Ryan
Tim Murphy
>Peter Ryan writes:
>Greg....@jtec.com.au (Greg Breen) wrote:
>>In article <TIM-M.110...@med.monash.edu.au>
>>TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) writes:
>>
>>>One important difference...the ball was in close proximity, O'Donnell was
>>>actually in the act of trying to smother the kick of the Richmond player.
>>Well that's not how I remember it. Certainly the ball may may have been closer
>>than 15m, but I don't recall O'Donnell "actually in the act of trying to
>>smother". Rather, O'Donnell was jogging along watching the play (perhaps
>>a second or two after trying to smother). And he didn't see Turner coming
>>at all, cos he was watching the ball, but Turner was watching him.
>As I remember it, the ball was much more than 15 metres away. It had
>been kicked clear. O'Donnell had turned away from his attempted smother
>and his attention was on the play further up the field. Despite this,
>Turner lined him up from some distance away. Like Gary Ablett, I'm a bit
>unclear on the charging rules but there was no doubt this particular
>tackle was a charge. I was flabbergasted when there was no report.
Hmm..much like Shane Warne's leggie that claimed Mike Gatting in 1993 seems to
have spun more each time the tale is told, I see O'Donnell is getting further
and further from the ball each time the legitimacy of this bump is debated.
The most oft repeated footage of this incident is in slow motion. When viewed
at normal speed, it's pretty soon after the ball is kicked. O'Donnell's arms
are still partially raised from the attempted smother. He's beginning to turn
and look downfield, but he can't have turned much otherwise he would have seen
Turner coming. Suffice to say it didn't come as late as you blokes are trying
to intimate. Again, in defence of Turner I state the fact that no report was
forthcoming, despite plenty of evidence.
And in case you're thinking I've got a yellow-and-black view of the world,
I'd go on to say that:
Turner laid a far more illegal "bump" later in the same match, on Grenvold;
John Howat must have planted a pretty illegal and rather heavy bump on John
Barnes last year. Unfortunately none of the 70,000-odd people in the ground
saw it, as it occurred some 50m away from the ball.
Cheers, Tim.
E-mail: Tim.M...@med.monash.edu.au
Herbie
In article <TIM-M.111...@med.monash.edu.au>,
TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) wrote:
>Ah yes. I presume the "dedicated and powerful" support base is the Willesee
>group? Yes, they've done well. But not without the debt restructuring you
>refer to above, and they have been...let's say..."lent" plenty of money from
>the AFL. League cash averts fold # 3. And it's still involved plenty of cash
>being "lent". Even as recently as the beginning of this year, the Swans were
>given $0.9 M.
>
But ALL clubs recieved a dividend this year. In any case 900 thou
wouldn't even pay the wages bill.
>In fact the AFL Commissioners got quite angry about the donations to the
>Swans, until it was pointed out that the AFL could demand much more cash in TV
>rights and ground signage at the SCG due to the television audiences generated
>by Swans' home games. So in effect the Swans earn their keep this way, is the
>argument. Of course, the vast majority of people don't tune in to see Sydney,
>but their team playing against Sydney.
I guess the point here is that the AFL is getting a return on their
'donation' and by allowing Sydney longer time to pay off the debt (which I
believe is now paid off). Fitzroy NEVER had that sort of 'capital' behind
it.
>
>The other argument is that Sydney, with 4M people, is a massive support base.
>This may be true, but ignores the fact that Sydney is not a footy town
>and probably never will be. Sure they've done well this year, filling the
>ground a few times, but we all remember back to 1986/7, when the same thing
>happened, only for the crowds to disappear as soon as the success
>vanished. To a certain extent this happens with all teams...my own
>team Richmond, for example...except that the Swans have few
>supporters to start with. Contrast this with Adelaide, which has 1/3 the
>population of Sydney but 40,000 people are members of the Crows, and no doubt
>Port Adelaide will be pushing them before long. The "supporter base" argument
>is a spurious one. Why not stick a team in Mexico City? There's 15 M there.
>
As you have alluded to, I did mean the 'Willesee' group behind the Swans,
But nothing more. Even if Sydney had 40 thou supporters, they still don't
have the political clout of Willesee et al. And Victorian based clubs'
members don't have the political force that the should have. If they did,
Melbourne and Hawthorn would have merged. Instead that idiot Don Scott
got in the way, and has sent Hawthorn, at least, on the road of ruin
(although I hope I'm wrong).
>I fully agree that if a club can't survive, they should go to the wall. And
>this should apply equally to all clubs. If the Sydney experiment failed, then
>so be it.
>
>Cheers, Tim.
One last word, Sydney was not an 'experiment'. South Melbourne had a
choice; wind up, or move north and hope for the best. Brisbane was an
experiment. Happily both are doing well.
Herbie.
Gerard McDermott
In <32A4E334...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> Dettol <mi...@gold.chem.hawaii.edu> writes:
>
>...and the terminator, Jimmy Buckley in his car...
Darren "drink drive bloody idiot" Milane on a truck.
Gerard.
Peter Ryan
TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) wrote:
>>Peter Ryan writes:
>
>>As I remember it, the ball was much more than 15 metres away. It had
>>been kicked clear. O'Donnell had turned away from his attempted smother
>>and his attention was on the play further up the field. Despite this,
>>Turner lined him up from some distance away. Like Gary Ablett, I'm a bit
>>unclear on the charging rules but there was no doubt this particular
>>tackle was a charge. I was flabbergasted when there was no report.
>Hmm..much like Shane Warne's leggie that claimed Mike Gatting in 1993 seems to
>have spun more each time the tale is told, I see O'Donnell is getting further
>and further from the ball each time the legitimacy of this bump is debated.
>The most oft repeated footage of this incident is in slow motion.
Good point. Slow motion does distort things rather badly.
When viewed
>at normal speed, it's pretty soon after the ball is kicked. O'Donnell's arms
>are still partially raised from the attempted smother. He's beginning to turn
>and look downfield, but he can't have turned much otherwise he would have seen
>Turner coming. Suffice to say it didn't come as late as you blokes are trying
>to intimate.
But we'll have to continue to disagree on this. My impression still was
that the ball had gone sufficiently long for Turner to pull out of his
tackle. But he didn't.
Again, in defence of Turner I state the fact that no report was
>forthcoming, despite plenty of evidence.
To that I would say that, as no report WAS forthcoming, he didn't need a
defence. But a lot of us thought he DID have a case to answer.
>And in case you're thinking I've got a yellow-and-black view of the world,
>I'd go on to say that:
>
>Turner laid a far more illegal "bump" later in the same match, on Grenvold;
Perhaps. I don't think I saw it.
>John Howat must have planted a pretty illegal and rather heavy bump on John
>Barnes last year. Unfortunately none of the 70,000-odd people in the ground
>saw it, as it occurred some 50m away from the ball.
Actually I saw it . . . sort of. I saw Barnes go down, but only with
peripheral vision. As Howat was the only player remotely close to him it
was clearly a result of a contact between them. But I couldn't say it
wasn't accidental. So, while I do believe the AFL should have
investigated further than it did, I think Howat should have been (and
should still be) given the benefit of the doubt unless some hard evidence
that he belted Barnes be produced. Saying he 'must have' done something
illegal is unwarranted, and unfair to a player who might be completely
innocent.
Peter Ryan
Greg Breen
In article <TIM-M.111...@med.monash.edu.au>
TI...@med.monash.edu.au (Tim Murphy) writes:
>>Herbie writes:
>>Not quite true, Tim. When South Melbourne was bought out,
>Whoa. Who bought them out? The then-VFL, of course. South Melbourne were
>riddled with debt and on the point of folding. The VFL offered to pay off all
>their debts if they moved to Sydney. In fact, an anecdote cropped up last
>year (I forget the source) where the Swans' manager at the time sent an
>office boy to the bank with the cheque and he promptly lost it. The manager
>had to rather sheepishly ring the VFL and ask for another. Anyway the rest, as
>they say, is history. League cash averts fold # 1.
And there was nothing wrong with that. It didn;t smack of preferential
treatment. South Melbourne were simply the first club to strike trouble
and the league bailed them out under the condition that they go
somewhere that had a realistic chance of securing the club's future
and, as a bonus, spreading the sport's gospel. And as you go on to
say, Fitzroy were provided exactly the same opportunity.
>Of course Fitzroy could have followed this path. The AFL offered them plenty
>of cash if they moved to Brisbane in 1986, or if they merged with the Doggies
>in 1989, or even if they merged with anyone earlier this year. But they
>didn't, so no hand-out for them.
And again, there's nothign wrong with that. DO you think the league should
have dished out handouts to Fitzroy (in Melbourne) even though it would
clearly have been nothing more than a band-aid measure, and the club
would just keep getting into trouble? Where's the sense in that for the
league?
>>and then moved
>>North, they were under the VFL banner. It was at this point the 12 VFL
>>clubs decided to look into the matter, and a national AFL comp was born.
>>When West Coast and Brisbane were admitted into the (for the last time)
>>VFL, they were the only clubs required to cough up the hefty entrance
>>fee. This money was returned as a dividend to the other 12 VFL clubs.
>>Remember, at this stage, Sydney, like West Coast and Brisbane were
>>technically companies, not members' clubs.
>Yeah yeah...all the clubs got some of that money. But we're kinda forgetting
>the Edelsten era, aren't we? By the time Dr. Geoff pulled out, the Swans were
>massively in debt. Dr. Geoff was so glad to get out he sold the licence to
>the AFL for $1. Players weren't being paid. The entire thing was a mess. The
>AFL had to weigh in and fix things. League cash averts fold # 2.
And don't you think that the league was *obligated* to do that? The league
cooked up the relocation, which was philosophically sound but poorly
implemented, and the league allowed Sydney to become the first privately
owned club in the comp. And history shows that was a mistake. But that
doesn't mean that having a club in Sydney was a mistake. It wasn't.
And isn't.
>>Sydney survived because a dedicated (and powerful) support base petitioned
>>the VFL/AFL to allow exetended payment of debt. The AFL has never 'thrown
>>cash' at Sydney. The AFL will never 'throw cash' at any club in danger.
>>And nor should they. Gerard is perfectly right; If a club can't manage
>>its' affairs, then they are a burden on the competion. The AFL will
>>guide, suggest, and inform, but will never dictate. Each clubs' fate are
>>in their own hands.
>
>Ah yes. I presume the "dedicated and powerful" support base is the Willesee
>group? Yes, they've done well. But not without the debt restructuring you
>refer to above, and they have been...let's say..."lent" plenty of money from
>the AFL. League cash averts fold # 3. And it's still involved plenty of cash
>being "lent". Even as recently as the beginning of this year, the Swans were
>given $0.9 M.
Well this is still really "League cash averts fold #2", because these debts
and financial problems are still the remnants of the Edlesten debacle.
>In fact the AFL Commissioners got quite angry about the donations to the
>Swans, until it was pointed out that the AFL could demand much more cash in TV
>rights and ground signage at the SCG due to the television audiences generated
>by Swans' home games. So in effect the Swans earn their keep this way, is the
>argument. Of course, the vast majority of people don't tune in to see Sydney,
>but their team playing against Sydney.
Whatever their reasons, the fact is that that money wouldn't be coming in if
Sydney didn't exist. Sure Sydney are still getting "donations" but they're
still climbing out of the Edlesten hole. Hopefully when they do get back
into the black, the donations, and the need for them, will disppear.
>The other argument is that Sydney, with 4M people, is a massive support base.
>This may be true, but ignores the fact that Sydney is not a footy town
>and probably never will be.
Never is a bloody long time. And "probably never will be" simply neglects to
account for the fact that sport in Australia has undergone massive changes
in the last 20 years, and will continue to do so for at least a few decades
yet. Do you realise how many national sports comps we have these days?
Just yesterday, the national women's soccer comp was kicked off. This
just adds on to the following list (that I can think of)
AFL
The many mens cricket comps
The new women's national cricket league.
ARL
Superleague
Mens soccer
Mens Basketball
Womens Basketball
Netball
Baseball
Hockey (mens and womens?)
And I think softball.
All of these sports want major sponsors and all of these sports are aiming
to create fully-professional competitions. And thus far, NONE of them are
fully professional, except for perhaps Superleague but there's many
people questioning how that comp's revenue will cover the exorbitant
player salaries.
The simple fact is that Australia just does not have sufficient population or
corporate money to carry all of these sports to full-professionalism. Something
*has* to give. All of these comps are in their relative infancy (i.e.
Nearly all well less than 100 years old). How can we say with any
confidence that this one or that one will be going strong even just
a decade or two from now let alone a century or two. Some sports just won't
make it. And who's to say that Rugby League won't be one of those sports that
fails. And being a bit of a gambler, I've got my money on AFL and soccer as the
two footy codes that will dominate this country in a few decades.
>Sure they've done well this year, filling the
>ground a few times, but we all remember back to 1986/7, when the same thing
>happened, only for the crowds to disappear as soon as the success
>vanished. To a certain extent this happens with all teams...my own
>team Richmond, for example...except that the Swans have few
>supporters to start with. Contrast this with Adelaide, which has 1/3 the
>population of Sydney but 40,000 people are members of the Crows, and no doubt
>Port Adelaide will be pushing them before long. The "supporter base" argument
>is a spurious one. Why not stick a team in Mexico City? There's 15 M there.
Maybe we will one day, but what hope have we of spreading the sport overseas
if we can't even spread it right around Australia? Aussie Rules *will* perish
if it doesn't spread. It *will* be consumed by other sports in the long term.
The AFL must simply continue to underwrite Sydney until such time as it
can stand it's own two feet (because the sport really has spread). If we let
Sydney die, it's a concession that the sport itself is doomed in the longer
run. But if we conquer Sydney, and take hold of that huge "market", the
future of the sport, in this country at least, would seem all but assured.
>I fully agree that if a club can't survive, they should go to the wall. And
>this should apply equally to all clubs. If the Sydney experiment failed, then
>so be it.
The AFL would be derelict in it's duty to the sport if it didn;t do everything
in it's power to ensure that it is one of the comps that does make it through
these turbulent times and on to full-professionalism. And it is blindingly
obvious that it must become a strong sport in Sydney and Brisbane if we
expect Australian Rules to be thriving a 100 years from now. The Swans
and the Lions MUST prosper, otherwise the sport won't.
Herbie
In article <01bbe121$be80c0e0$e6a6...@TPGI.TPGI.COM.AU>, "Rob Barber"
>Well said Peter, The AFL has got a lot to answer for. It was those pricks
>that let
> the West Coast Wankers in the VFL in the first place. They destroyed
>footy when
>Aylett(The Poofter Dentist)went all out to send South to Sydney.
>
Oh dear. Rob wants to go back to the 'good old days'. Let me tell you,
Rob, if the VFL did not do something urgently back in '85 and '86, then
Fitzroy, Footscray, Richmond, North Melbourne et al would all be a
memory. And if you want footy to stay Victorian, then boycott the games,
because EVERY VFL club voted for the change. They're not as blinkered as
you seem to be.
Herbie
Tim
Peter Ryan wrote:
> But we'll have to continue to disagree on this. My impression still was
> that the ball had gone sufficiently long for Turner to pull out of his
> tackle. But he didn't.
Speaking of the Turner-nator, I was down at the club yesterday and he
waltzed by looking very pumped. Quite large in the upper body, should
be able to wrestle Dunstall again without a problem. He still had the
knee bandage on his left knee, though. :(
Are the clubs back in full training or what? I saw Merenda and Sir
Charles sown there as well.
> Actually I saw it . . . sort of. I saw Barnes go down, but only with
> peripheral vision.
nah - I saw it "clearly". Barnes was trotting along and had a thought
then down he went in shock.
Tim
*<.-)\
Craig Buckley
Craig Buckley
You are all obviously too young. The greatest shirtfront by a country
mile was the one Laurie Fowler put on John Nicholls (Big nick) in the
1973 Grand final. Big Nick (4 stone (25 kg) heavier than Laurie fowler)
was running around the wing when he hit a brick wall name Laurie Fowler.
Big Nick remained horizontal in mid air for a couple of seconds before
crashing uncerimoniously to the turf. Needless to say the Mighty Tigers
won the game and Flag. My memory is not as good as it used to be so
I hope I got the name Laurie Fowler correct. For some reason the name
Mervyn Keane keeps coming to the fore. Nah it was definitely Laurie
Fowler.... I think. Anyone wanting to see the shirtfront, get hold of "The
Sensational Seventies" video (which I don't have - I am living in the USA
at the moment).
Carn The Tigers
BUCKO
Dettol
Craig Buckley wrote:
>
> You are all obviously too young. The greatest shirtfront by a country
> mile was the one Laurie Fowler put on John Nicholls (Big nick) in the
> 1973 Grand final. Big Nick (4 stone (25 kg) heavier than Laurie fowler)
> was running around the wing when he hit a brick wall name Laurie Fowler.
> Big Nick remained horizontal in mid air for a couple of seconds before
> crashing uncerimoniously to the turf. Needless to say the Mighty Tigers
> won the game and Flag. My memory is not as good as it used to be so
> I hope I got the name Laurie Fowler correct. For some reason the name
> Mervyn Keane keeps coming to the fore. Nah it was definitely Laurie
> Fowler.... I think. Anyone wanting to see the shirtfront, get hold of "The
> Sensational Seventies" video (which I don't have - I am living in the USA
> at the moment).
>
> Carn The Tigers
>
> BUCKO
Laurie Fowler it was!
Mike
Rob de Santos
Tim writes:
> The "supporter base" argumentis a spurious one. Why not stick a
Might I suggest another North American city instead??? <big
grin>
Cheers,
Rob
--
-Rob de Santos
-Vienna, WV USA
-73320...@compuserve.com
President / CEO, Australian Football Association of North America
Richard Scott
Yeah, Honolulu is closer, kinda like Qld, put them there. :)
Richard Scott (rsc...@hawaii.edu)
" Steve I've gotta say Thank You,
For what you've done for me.
The nights are dark and lonely
When you're not on TV. " - Radio Birdman