Creatine and fencing
Michael E. Friedman
nutritional suppliment Creatine monohydrate. Have any fencers used this
supplement and found it improved their fencing? Inquiring minds want
info. I checked with the USOC drugline and it is not banned, unlike
steroids.
Michael Friedman
david arias
a national health store chain. pro baseball is apparently considering a
ban as other sports have. since fencing is such a mental game, however,
people would probably be better off just concentrating on their training
instead of looking for gimmicks.
david
Sabeur
manufactured in small quantities by the body (in the liver) and present in
foods such as beef and tuna. Creatine helps muscles retain more adenosine
triphosphate, thereby increasing strength and endurance during weight-bearing
(anaerobic) exercise....doesn't seem to help with speed or agility....
Using creatine supplements definitely gives one a better workout, and I've
found that being in better physical shape makes one a better fencer. So, yes, I
guess creatine does improve fencing, in a roundabout way....
Bryan J. Maloney
> i just saw a television advertisement for creatine monohydrate, through
> a national health store chain. pro baseball is apparently considering a
> ban as other sports have. since fencing is such a mental game, however,
> people would probably be better off just concentrating on their training
> instead of looking for gimmicks.
David Arias and I are in 100% agreement. World ends at 11:00.
--
- "God created women equal with men" ... "There are many women who
are better than men."--St. Kosmas Aitolos
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/
Sabeur
Sabeur
Sabeur
Bryan J. Maloney
sab...@aol.com (Sabeur) wrote:
> Creatine is not banned because it is a naturally occurring substance
> manufactured in small quantities by the body (in the liver) and present in
> foods such as beef and tuna. Creatine helps muscles retain more adenosine
> triphosphate, thereby increasing strength and endurance during weight-bearing
However, the long-term results of concentrated usage are simply unknown.
How many chambers are loaded in that revolver before you spin it and put
it to your head? What are the results of increased ATP retention over a
20-year span? How about 10 years? How about 5? How many chambers in
that revolver are loaded?
Sabeur
In article <bjm10-01099...@potato.cit.cornell.edu>, bj...@cornell.edu
wrote:
>What are the results of increased ATP retention over a
>20-year span?
Long term usage results are unknown....very few bodybuilders have used the
supplement until recently. A short-term study DOES show that if it is used on
an on-off cycle, the levels of creatine in the body decrease to normal. (Drs.
Paul Greenhaff & Eric Hultman, Dept. of Clinical Chemistry/Karolinska
Institute)
Frans Hoeberechts
consider to ban the use of additional creatine loads.
The basics of fencing can be described as proper techniques, proper timing
and good judgment of distance. Anyone with these qualities properly trained
can become a top fencer.
On the other hand... there one's was a worldchampion sabre fencer who was
only capable of making a perfect fleche (with the neccesary muscle-power)
earlier than his opponents and thus became worldchampion. His coach told him
that he was worldchampion sabre-fencing without being a fencer. They
achieved this by working verry hard on just one basic element of fencing...
earlier handling (or starts of attacks) by greater muscular strenght.
What I want to say is that physical strenght (and fast recuperation during a
tournament) and speed/muscle velocity are also basic elements for superb
performances. Creatine helps you to train harder (with heavier loads) in the
same amount of time or train the same load in less time. Fatique is delayed,
both in trainings as in bouts, both physical as mentally, by using
additional creatine in the proper way.
Nobody will become worldchampion anymore by focusing on one element.
Desciding what's missing in your performances might lead to more emphasis on
your fencing-techniques or to emphasis on your muscular strenght. The use of
creatine might give you the possibility to train harder without fatique or
loss of concentration if everything else is perfect.
Frans
david arias heeft geschreven in bericht <35EB63BD...@scott.net>...
>i just saw a television advertisement for creatine monohydrate, through
>a national health store chain. pro baseball is apparently considering a
>ban as other sports have. since fencing is such a mental game, however,
>people would probably be better off just concentrating on their training
>instead of looking for gimmicks.
>
Michael E. Friedman
I would like to hear from someone who has used Creatine, rather than
statements of possibilities or attitudes. How about good or bad
experiences? Perhaps if someone is shy to discuss this matter publicly
he or she could email me. Thanks,
Michael Friedman
Frans Hoeberechts wrote:
>
> David is quit right when he writes that there are some sports(organizations)
> consider to ban the use of additional creatine loads.
>
> The basics of fencing can be described as proper techniques, proper timing
> and good judgment of distance. <snip>
Bryan J. Maloney
<fho...@casema.net> wrote:
> What I want to say is that physical strenght (and fast recuperation during a
> tournament) and speed/muscle velocity are also basic elements for superb
> performances. Creatine helps you to train harder (with heavier loads) in the
What is the long-term effects of this substance? Let us not forget that
nicotine, caffeine, cyanide, gibberellin, aflatoxin, and botulin are also
all natural substanes.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Michael replies:
>
> I would like to hear from someone who has used Creatine, rather than
> statements of possibilities or attitudes. How about good or bad
> experiences? Perhaps if someone is shy to discuss this matter publicly
And how many of these people have been using it for 10 or 20 years?
Liz & Dan Gorman
> I would like to hear from someone who has used Creatine, rather than
> statements of possibilities or attitudes. How about good or bad
> experiences? Perhaps if someone is shy to discuss this matter publicly
> he or she could email me. Thanks,
> Michael Friedman
Well, I haven't used it, but I've just started a weight training class and have
talked to the instructor about creatine. Here's the deal, the evidence of whether
it does anything one way or the other with the massive doses is pretty sketchy at
best, but one thing it does do is increase the water retained by the muscle. This
is part of the reason you get bigger faster. The rest of the reason is either
actual effect of creatine or a placebo effect. As for the safety, it was linked
to the death of some wrestlers this past spring (winter?), but never really
proven. It also seems to suppress the body's natural production of creatine, but
animal research indicates that production resumes after the supplements stop.
Bottom line? No one really knows too much about it yet and anything you hear is
pretty much hearsay (like me on that fuller/groove thing :) ). It may or may
not increase the speed at which your muscle recovers (increasing the speed at
which you build muscle), and it may or may not be bad for you. If it does
increase muscle recovery then it will help your fencing purely in the sense you
can train longer and harder.
Dan
Sabeur
In article <bjm10-03099...@potato.cit.cornell.edu>, bj...@cornell.edu
wrote:
>What is the long-term effects of this substance? Let us not forget that
>nicotine, caffeine, cyanide, gibberellin, aflatoxin, and botulin are also
>all natural substanes.
Moderation in all things - VITAMINS are harmful/toxic if taken in too large
quantities....
Sarah Armstrong
I believe that there was a long discussion on this very topic this spring
in rec.sport.swimming. Creatine has (I think) been banned for competitive
swimmers because of possible side effects. There was some good information
posted in the midst of a swimming kung foo fight, so if you're interested
try to find the archive. The swimming newsgroup does an archive on DeJa News.
(I believe the topic had something to do with
Australian Drugs)
Bryan J. Maloney
sab...@aol.com (Sabeur) wrote:
However, the creatine on the market is intensely concentrated in
comparison to what can be had in foodstuff. Therefore, what is too large
a dose of creatine? Answer: Nobody knows.
JonM4
doctor. Some vitamins while water soluble do NOT flush right out of your
system and can build up to a harmful level!
FoiledU
Bryan J. Maloney wrote in message ...
>
>What is the long-term effects of this substance? Let us not forget that
>nicotine, caffeine, cyanide, gibberellin, aflatoxin, and botulin are also
>all natural substanes.
But they do not occur naturally in the body and Creatine does.
(Bryan)Since you want something to worry about check into what happens to
creatine levels in the blood during end stage renal disease (Kidney
failure).
FoiledU
Bryan J. Maloney wrote in message ...
>comparison to what can be had in foodstuff. Therefore, what is too large
>a dose of creatine? Answer: Nobody knows.
The Vitamin supplements on the market are also intensely concentrated in
comparison to what is in food sources. Too much beta carotene can cause
temporary psychosis, yet several years ago it was all the rage. In fact
most fads turn out to be harmful in excess. If you're not happy with the
answer of "in moderation," I suggest you stick with the classic method of
frequent and regular training/practice.
Zoergiebel
temporary psychosis<<<
Of course, then they don't call it beta carotene but beta Cretinine.
Chris Amberger
Hammerterz Forum
Dr. Hans M. Rupp
Michael E. Friedman wrote:
> Michael replies:
>
> I would like to hear from someone who has used Creatine, rather than
> statements of possibilities or attitudes. How about good or bad
> experiences? Perhaps if someone is shy to discuss this matter publicly
> he or she could email me. Thanks,
> Michael Friedman
>
> Frans Hoeberechts wrote:
> >
> > David is quit right when he writes that there are some sports(organizations)
> > consider to ban the use of additional creatine loads.
> >
> > The basics of fencing can be described as proper techniques, proper timing
> > and good judgment of distance. <snip>
Since I read some articles in serious journals which reported positive effects on
strength and speed I tried it. I do some strength training and I noticed no effect
in my workouts. I wasn´t able to do more reps or use heavier weights after taking
the recomnended daily doses for a week. So it seems it does not work for me. (It
wasn´t an experiment performed with the proper controls though ;-)
As I molecular biologist I can´t really imagine how moderate doses of creatine
could do any harm (providing the stuff is really pharmaceutically clean). That the
synthesis might be surpressed is imaginable though. That argument has been used
against long term supplementation of carnitine too.
In my opinion strength and velocity (Schnellkraft in German) are important in
fencing. But even in the olympic fencing centres the modern training methods for
increasing them are not employed properly. The fencing coaches should try to learn
more from track and field disciplines which apply modern training science. That
would probably be much more usefull than taking creatine.
Greetings
Dr. Hans M. Rupp
Chock
Bryan J. Maloney
ch...@aol.com (Chock) wrote:
> what about Andro?
The last thing *I* need is another source of testosteroids, dietary or
otherwise (says the man with the enormous jaw, the all-over body rug, and
the temper to match--and I got it all without chemical enhancement).
HaroldBuck
>what about Andro?
>
It is likely that andro is banned. It certainly is in NCAA fencing, and I can't
imagine that the IOC allows it.
Andro ends up boosting your testosterone levels. Since that's how they test for
steroids, they pretty much have to ban it (because otherwise you could do
'roids and claim your testosterone levels are high from andro).
-Harold
Allan
only during short spurts (i.e. hitting a baseball). Fencing generally uses
a different energy pathway (anaerobic lactic) and so creatine would not
have that much of an effect. Possibly, improved lunging speed may be a
result by I am not aware of any info on the subject.
Allan.
Michael E. Friedman <Mich...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<35EB4F...@pacbell.net>...
HaroldBuck
>My understanding of creatine is that it is utilised as energy by the body
>only during short spurts (i.e. hitting a baseball). Fencing generally uses
>a different energy pathway (anaerobic lactic) and so creatine would not
>have that much of an effect. Possibly, improved lunging speed may be a
>result by I am not aware of any info on the subject.
>
>Allan.
I haven't done much reading on creatine, but I think you've got it all wrong.
Creatine isn't used as energy as far as I can tell. Creatine is an amino acid.
Amino acids are building blocks for muscles. By taking creatine, you make more
of it available so that when you weight train your muscles rebuild faster.
(Weight training works by breaking down muscles so that the body rebuilds them
better than before.)
By rebuilding your muscles faster, you can lift more frequently and/or more
intensely. Thus, you get stronger faster.
One study showed that it improved sprinting performance in swimming (100m, I
believe, for which good swimmers take around 42 seconds). This is definitely
anaerobic-lactic acid system, not the ATP system.
As far as fencing, I think it would be desirable to use creatine as far as more
powerful legs are desirable (*assuming*, of course, that there are no side
effects).
As I said, I haven't read up on this extensively, but I think the gist of this
is correct.
-Harold
Mark Biersack
releases energy in the muscles to help make more adenosine triphosphate
(atp). atp is used during short intense periods of physical activity.
so...if you're able to do more during this activity (ie, for weight
training), more muscle is broken down and rebuilt...and strength increases.
or so goes the general theory...
i've used creatine for a few months now, coupled with weight training
several times a week. personally, i've noticed a difference in the past.
the best way to see if it makes a difference is to start training for
several weeks before taking any supplements. once your body is used to the
routine, any difference that the supplement provides is easier to notice.
some things to remember is that the body will eventually get used to the
additional creatine intake, at which point you need to increase the intake
or add a creatine booster. also, creatine definitely seems to lead to more
dehydration...so plan on drinking lots of water (which is also a result of
weight training, btw). personally, i'd talk to a nutritionist or physical
therapist before starting on a creatine loading program.
again, though, this may or may not work for a person...it can vary. i
wouldn't suggest creatine unless a fencer were doing weight training as well
as a usual workout. for normal fencing training (ie, footwork, lunges,
etc.), a good diet (aka, healthy eating) is probably more than sufficient.
and of course, i make no claim to be a physical therapist, so the above is
only from my personal opinion/experience.
regards,
mark
HaroldBuck wrote in message
<199809130351...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Bryan J. Maloney
harol...@aol.com (HaroldBuck) wrote:
> Creatine isn't used as energy as far as I can tell. Creatine is an amino acid.
It's not one of the canonical 20 that are incorporated into human tissue.
Bryan J. Maloney
<bier...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> some things to remember is that the body will eventually get used to the
> additional creatine intake, at which point you need to increase the intake
This should warn off anybody with any functional common sense...
HaroldBuck
>
>> Creatine isn't used as energy as far as I can tell. Creatine is an amino
>acid.
>
>It's not one of the canonical 20 that are incorporated into human tissue.
>
True. I believe it is a "short" amino acid, a precursor to one or more of the
canonical 20.
-Harold
Dr. Hans M. Rupp
HaroldBuck schrieb:
Neither:
Creatine is made from the amino acids glycine and arginine. It it is essential in
the energy metabolism of muscle contraction.
If you start vigorous exercise e.g. a sprint, the energy for muscle contraction
is supplied for about 1 - 2 seconds from the ATP pool. After that the ATP pool is
depleted. Here comes creatine-phospate in. Its phosphate residue is transferred
to ADP so that ATP is resynthesized. The larger the creatine pool in the muscle
is, the longer muscle contraction can be sustained without anaerobic breakdown of
glucose which leads to lactate. Lactate accumulation will eventually inhibit the
enzymes of energy production and force you to stop the exercise. That's why you
can run at sprint speed only for about 400 m.
The greater the creatine-phosphate pool the longer anaerobic muscle contraction
without lactate production can be sustained.
I hope this helps a little to avoid confusions about creatine.
Greetings,
Dr. Hans M. Rupp
University of Tuebingen, Germany
Liz & Dan Gorman
> In article <199809130351...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> harol...@aol.com (HaroldBuck) wrote:
>
> > Creatine isn't used as energy as far as I can tell. Creatine is an amino acid.
>
> It's not one of the canonical 20 that are incorporated into human tissue.
the "canonical 20" are just the ones your body can't make on its own. there are
far, far more in the body.
Dan
Bryan J. Maloney
Could you cite a reference for this? Mind you, I am a molecular
biologist. According to every reference I have ever consulted on the
subject states that there are 20 and only 20 amino acids coded for in
human RNA-->protein translation.
Eric Dew
>In article <35FE96B4...@unix.tamu.edu>, ebg...@unix.tamu.edu wrote:
>
>> Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>>
>> > In article <199809130351...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
>> > harol...@aol.com (HaroldBuck) wrote:
>> >
>> > > Creatine isn't used as energy as far as I can tell. Creatine is an
>amino acid.
>> >
>> > It's not one of the canonical 20 that are incorporated into human tissue.
>>
>> the "canonical 20" are just the ones your body can't make on its own.
>there are
>> far, far more in the body.
>
>Could you cite a reference for this? Mind you, I am a molecular
>biologist. According to every reference I have ever consulted on the
>subject states that there are 20 and only 20 amino acids coded for in
>human RNA-->protein translation.
>
Olympic-style molecular biology will explain all the other amino acids.
:-)
EDEW
Liz & Dan Gorman
> Could you cite a reference for this? Mind you, I am a molecular
> biologist. According to every reference I have ever consulted on the
> subject states that there are 20 and only 20 amino acids coded for in
> human RNA-->protein translation.
"The 20 common amino acids are by no means the only amino acids that occur in
biological systems. 'Nonstandard' amino acids are often important constituents
of proteins and biologically active polypeptides. Many amino acids, however, are
not constituents of proteins. Together with their derivatives, they play a
variety of biologically important roles."
--Voet & Voet, _Biochemistry_ Second Edition, p. 67.
"Creatine is a naturally occurring amino acid that plays an important role in the
process of producing energy in skeletal muscles. In humans it is produced in the
liver, kidneys and pancreas."
--Excerpt from a reprinting from "The First Aider" Volume 68, Number 2, a
publication of Cramer Products, Inc.
The article the second quote was taken from goes on to say that creatine aids in
the release of ATP to fuel the muscles which lets you work longer, harder, and
recover faster. On the flip side, the University of Tennessee recently banned it
among its football players, blaming it for the cramping problems (brought on by
dehydration, which creatine is believed to speed as well) in the game against
Syracuse. Since dehydration and cramps are likely to be a problem for fencers,
I'd be really careful about taking it.
Dan
ps Bryan, the part about Tennessee was reported in the Houston Chronicle, that's
as good as it gets, because I'm not digging through the recycle pile to find it.