Why fencing isn't as popular as it could be
David Willis
won't ever be that popular as long as fencers' faces are hidden behind
the mask. The clear mask (if feasible) would make people identify with
the fencers, which is something necessary to reach a larger audience.
Otherwise, all fencers are pretty much anonymous to the casual observer.
They may as well be watching "rock 'em sock 'em robots" as far as they're
concerned.
What do you think?
David Willis
dwi...@earthlink.net
"I don't give a damn what religion you are - all I care is how you treat
people."
Paul Gettle
Theory: Fencing isn't popular because it doesn't involve a ball.
-- Paul Gettle (pge...@hubcap.clemson.edu)
Ellen M. Webster
: People keep talking about how to make fencing a more popular sport. It
: won't ever be that popular as long as fencers' faces are hidden behind
: the mask. The clear mask (if feasible) would make people identify with
: the fencers, which is something necessary to reach a larger audience.
: Otherwise, all fencers are pretty much anonymous to the casual observer.
: They may as well be watching "rock 'em sock 'em robots" as far as they're
: concerned.
Can't see 'em in Football, either.
---
Ellen M. Webster eweb...@bga.com Austin, Texas
ECCLES
very true
that rooting for someone or his/her opponent is important...what about
some
disscussion on SHOWING the game in a better way...can you imagine baseball
on TV without someone's bright idea of putting a camera w a y out in
center field
with a BIG lens to give viewers the "shot " we now take for granted-the
over-the-
pitcher-right-down-the-batter's throat" shot
..any fencing stage directors out there?
..how "bout cinematographers?
..let's hear how to make fencing "easier" to watch,follow,and enjoy??!!
...god,i'm sorry to ramble on so, folks...watch parry 9 !
James M. Politte
: ..any fencing stage directors out there?
: ..how "bout cinematographers?
: ..let's hear how to make fencing "easier" to watch,follow,and enjoy??!!
: ...god,i'm sorry to ramble on so, folks...watch parry 9 !
Lessee, John Madden doing color commentary would be nice. Throat mikes
on the fencers so we can be heard grunting as well as the football
players. Perhaps even a micro-miniature "helmet-cam" mounted in the
mask.
Either that, or convince Konami to produce a fencing version of "Mortal
Kombat". ("Beat attack, parry-riposte, fatality!")
'Scuse me. Need more coffee.
J.Politte
JBXRONLINE
premise of killing someone else. I think this makes it inherently taboo.
For me, that makes it all the more interesting. Not in the literal sense,
of course. I also think that it's got a lot of baggage attached
pertaining to classism. Rich, white people etc. This is too bad, because
many of us are not white and most of the fencers I know are very poor!
May I just note here that I'm trying to get membership up in my own club.
Please refer to the listing on "Ideas..." to post your ideas. I could
use your help.
Thank you very much!
denise
jbxro...@AOL.com
Dillon J Lin
popula.. by David Willis@earthlink.n
>won't ever be that popular as long as fencers' faces are hidden behind
>the mask. The clear mask (if feasible) would make people identify with
>the fencers, which is something necessary to reach a larger audience.
>Otherwise, all fencers are pretty much anonymous to the casual observer.
>They may as well be watching "rock 'em sock 'em robots" as far as they're
>concerned.
>
>What do you think?
>David Willis
>dwi...@earthlink.net
I don't think this is the core of the problem. When was the last
time you could see a football player's face (clearly and on a regular
basis) on T.V. during a game?
Again, I think that the heart of the problem is that the American
culture does not regard fencing very much just as it does not regard
equestrian or polo on a popular basis. Fencing is a "Old World" sport
meant for Europeans in the eyes of most Americans.
______________________________________________________________________
Dillon Jung Lin
dl...@andrew.cmu.edu
Carnegie Mellon University Architecture
| |
__|__ __|__
/|\ /|\
/ | \ / | \
_______________________________________________________________________
Sasha Zucker
<dwi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> People keep talking about how to make fencing a more popular sport. It
> won't ever be that popular as long as fencers' faces are hidden behind
> the mask. The clear mask (if feasible) would make people identify with
> the fencers, which is something necessary to reach a larger audience.
All we have to do is get a lot more people to fence. The USFA's membership
is only like 10,000. If more people fenced our problems would be solved.
Adding little gimmicks like clear masks isn't going to pick up fencers if
no one in the U.S. knows about the sport. In Europe people are more aware
of the sport so it's more accepted. Fencers are, like, celeberties, in
some cases.
-sasha
AW Golberg
: People keep talking about how to make fencing a more popular sport. It
: won't ever be that popular as long as fencers' faces are hidden behind
: the mask. The clear mask (if feasible) would make people identify with
: the fencers, which is something necessary to reach a larger audience.
: Otherwise, all fencers are pretty much anonymous to the casual observer.
: They may as well be watching "rock 'em sock 'em robots" as far as they're
: concerned.
: What do you think?
I don't think it's ever going to be a popular spectator sport. You can make
minor alternations but you can't change fencing into what it isn't. To get
more people fencing, it's a question of making it more accesible. Most
people know of it but don't know where it is.
Adam Golberg.
Keele University Fencing Club.
KATHLEEN GORMAN
>> >People keep talking about how to make fencing a more popular sport. It
>> >won't ever be that popular as long as fencers' faces are hidden behind
>> >the mask. The clear mask (if feasible) would make people identify with
>> >the fencers, which is something necessary to reach a larger audience.
>I like the idea of a clear mask, I think lack of spectator appeal is a big
>reason.
I think that reason by itself isn't enough. Probably the biggest problem
is seeing what's happening and another big problem is understanding. Have
you ever tried watching fencing on TV? It's really difficult to see the
blades unless someone is very, very good with their lighting. It's also
difficult to understand. It took me until my 3rd year of competition to
understand why I got the results I did (foil), I can't expect Joe Public to
get it in one afternoon. And even the climaxes of the match are very boring
to the watcher. A light goes off, a buzzer sounds. So what? Nobody gets
knocked over, nobody gets into a fight, where's the excitement?
Consider this: the most popular sports I know of are all team sports.
Why? More people try them as kids? There are more people participating and
they display more emotion so the watcher gets involved?
>> Theory: Fencing isn't popular because it doesn't involve a ball.
>I'm not sure it's the ball, though. I think it's the fact that it's so
>hard to see what's going on if you're not doing it yourself. Similar to
>hockey's problems on TV.
What problems with hockey? The sport is TOO damm popular, from my point of
view.
Kathleen
KATHLEEN GORMAN
>Fencing is not as popular as it should be because it's based on the
>premise of killing someone else. I think this makes it inherently taboo.
So's wrestling. (Of course wrestling is aimed at a lower intelligence level)
>of course. I also think that it's got a lot of baggage attached
>pertaining to classism. Rich, white people etc. This is too bad, because
>many of us are not white and most of the fencers I know are very poor!
Is that because most of them are college students?
Kathleen
KATHLEEN GORMAN
> Hey! What planet are you from? No just kidding...I know, what
> with the strike and all everyone's forgotten what hockey looks
> like. The fact is that - like hockey - fencing (and indeed
> every other sport) is completely incomprensible if you don't
> know the rules. Further, fencing is as mystifying in person
> as it is on TV....remarkably like hockey (and indeed every other
Hockey has a clearly defined win (or score) situation:
Get the ball into the net, a light goes on, you score.
Fencing isn't so clear cut:
Hit the other person, light goes on, wait... it's the wrong colour.
or Hit the other person, light goes on, wait... he didn't have right of
way, or ...it slipped on from the lame, or they both hit at the same time,
or ........
> Clear masks won't help a bit. No, no..forget it...that's
> just silly. Really... how often can you see the quarterback's
> face? Almost never - certainly not often enough to matter.
> So that chucks that theory into a cocked hat, doesn't it?
I expect clear masks would help a little bit, they just wouldn't solve the
whole problem. They would let people "feel" what the fencer was feeling
which couldn't hurt. I football we just assume we know what the quarterback
is feeling because we've done it ourselves, or we've read about it so much.
Kathleen
TIM STANG
: People keep talking about how to make fencing a more popular sport. It
: won't ever be that popular as long as fencers' faces are hidden behind
: the mask. The clear mask (if feasible) would make people identify with
: the fencers, which is something necessary to reach a larger audience.
: Otherwise, all fencers are pretty much anonymous to the casual observer.
: They may as well be watching "rock 'em sock 'em robots" as far as they're
: concerned.
: What do you think?
The popularity of fencing is NOT dependant upon a clear mask...in
football the helmet covers the majority of the face and it's popularity
hasn't suffered. In fact a clear (let say plex-glass) mask inorder to be
safe would'nt make the fencers face all that much more visable. Taking in
account of the glare and the scratching of opponents blades...well.
The key to making fencing more popular is getting the serious
interest of the popular media in North America. Try getting any of the
major sports channels to send a single crew out to cover a fencing event.
You'll get a standard response that if they feel that they can use it in
a late night fill spot they might send a crew. It doesn't matter how big
or small the event is - it is next to impossible to get any serious
response out of any popular media source.
Case in point, for the 1990 Canadian Nationals in Hamilton, the
organizers tries for months to get a single TV/Radio/Newspaper reporter
to cover even a short bit of the Nationals. A single small litttle
listened to FM station came out to record the sounds of battle and the
local TV station reported the existance of the event but that was it...
I agree that there should be more done to identify who the fencer
is...ie coloured uniforms and perhapse coloured face masks...but clear to
me really isn't safe...
Tim
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Stang
-)--------- Brock Varsity Fencer ---------(-
--------------------
Internet Connect Niagara
System Engineer
Contact via Internet E-mail: |
bfen...@spartan.ac.brocku.ca | this space for rent...
ts9...@badger.ac.brocku.ca |
tst...@niagara.com |
hellcow.
>>premise of killing someone else. I think this makes it inherently taboo.
Really? Why do you think that car racing is so popular? I know at
least a couple of people who are honest enough to say that the only reason
they might watch racing is for the crashes.. Moronic, yes, but also a bit
of proof that these days violence and death don't draw away from a sport,
they draw people to it. If you think about it, fencing these days is hardly
lethal combat, it has less danger and contact in it than most other sports.
>>of course. I also think that it's got a lot of baggage attached
>>pertaining to classism. Rich, white people etc. This is too bad, because
>>many of us are not white and most of the fencers I know are very poor!
>Is that because most of them are college students?
>Kathleen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hellcow.
'nuff said.
Morgan Burke
|> I'm not sure it's the ball, though. I think it's the fact that it's so
|> hard to see what's going on if you're not doing it yourself. Similar to
|> hockey's problems on TV.
Hockey's problem on TV is that Americans don't like hockey.
Here in Canada, of course, hockey's problem on TV is that it's on TV
too damn much, bumping the News, The Kids in the Hall, and This Hour
has 22 Minutes into random timeslots during the playoffs. Hockey has
precedence over declarations of war and tidal wave warnings. If you
have problems with hockey on TV, they are purely cultural. If the
American networks have problems, they are purely financial.
Ditto for fencing, which works well on TV, IMHO. The action is
confined and tight, requiring few technical resources, and the short
breaks are perfect for slo-mo replays of the last touch, with color
commentary and analysis.
Media exposure is directly related to money. You only get reported in
the media if the media can sell space/time to people who want to hear
about you. If a sport is culturally insignificant, as fencing is
outside of Europe, the media cannot sell it, and won't try. Even if
the sport is significant, it will not get big exposure if there isn't
money behind it. Check out German or Italian sports magazines. They
are full of auto racing, tennis, skiing, and soccer, not fencing.
Fencing may get a thousand times more coverage in those countries than
over here, but it still gets next to none.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Mark C. Orton
> Fencing is not as popular as it should be because it's based on the
> premise of killing someone else. I think this makes it inherently taboo.
I'm not at all sure this has anything to do with it. Karate is also
based on killing someone else, but it's enormously popular.
(Taking a quick look in the yellow pages I see four pages of ads for
karate schools. Under "Fencing Instruction" there's *one* entry, and
I was surprised to find that one.)
--
Mark C. Orton
employed by (but not speaking for)
Pulse Communications, Inc.
Neil_Gendzwill
>ECCLES (ecc...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> Either that, or convince Konami to produce a fencing version of "Mortal
>Kombat". ("Beat attack, parry-riposte, fatality!")
It's called "Samurai Shodown" or "Samurai Shodown II", known in Japan
as "Samurai Spirits". And despite the name, one of the tougher
opponents is "Charlotte", a rapier-wielding French revolutionary.
Big fun, great graphics.
Neil
Ken Witmyer
I'd have to agree with this. There is no need in the american people to see
the participant's face. Most sports don't give closups of faces during the
action, the closeups are in between the action on the sidelines. This can of
course be done with fencing. The problem in America is simply exposure.
Fencing, at least to me, was the great unknown sport. Untill I got into
college, where fencing seems almost common, I had no idea how to even read
about the sport. I thought it was a European sport. What fencing needs is to
branch off into the smaller cities rather than just colleges and big cities, it
needs to advertise on TV perhaps, it needs to enter articles reviewing the
tournaments in local newspapers and so on... Look at the martial arts such as
Karate, it is huge in the US because it has been advertised, movies have been
made and people are intrigued with it. Fencing needs the same thing. But I've
talked enough...
-Ken Witmyer
IUP Fencing Club
Kelly Ringwald
wisdom:
It simply is not all that much fun to watch. Esp. foil and sabre where, even
if you understand the rules, it's hard as hell to figure out who got the
touch. Excellence in fencing takes the appearance of minimalist form. Not
spectacular slam dunks, leaping receptions, or bone-crushing checks.
Let's face it, we look kind of goofy all in white, hopping around with cables
bouncing from our posterior. The first time I visited an electric salle, I
thought it was quite ridiculous.
I think the popularity can be best increased by improving accessibility,
especially to youngsters. Either that, or doff the masks and sharpen the
points. That oughta get noticed real quick!
Regards,
Kelly
Randell Jesup
More to the point, joe couch-potato and the wife & kids would look at
a fencing match and say "huh?" To explain the action would a) require massive-
slow-mo cameras, and b) lots of time. Names? Mostly irrelevant unless the
fencers have colorful personalities.
EVERY kid in US (ok 95%) has played "get the ball/whatever in the
goal" games. Even if they never played the game in question, they have a
feeling that they understand the basic idea of what's going on. Even ball-and-
goal games that lots of kids play can have problems on TV (witness soccer &
lacrosse in the US). Volleyball has done fairly well, largely because a LOT
of people play it, people who don't play can usually follow it, and it has the
right "pace".
The only way to make a sport like fencing more popular than it is
(not popular) is to get more people exposed to it (particularily in schools).
I got into fencing when I was in 9th grade, almost by chance. (It probably
didn't hurt than the class was 90% girls, given my age. ;-) Even though I
didn't fence again until college (no opportunity), I was hooked.
--
Randell Jesup, Scala US R&D
Randel...@scala.com
Ex-Commodore-Amiga Engineer, class of '94
#include <std/disclaimer>
Jon Jeffrey O'Brien
: In article <3fftak$3...@nnrp.ucs.ubc.ca> jjob...@unixg.ubc.ca (Jon Jeffrey O'Brien) writes:
: > like. The fact is that - like hockey - fencing (and indeed
: > every other sport) is completely incomprensible if you don't
: > know the rules. Further, fencing is as mystifying in person
: Hockey has a clearly defined win (or score) situation:
: Get the ball into the net, a light goes on, you score.
Yeah? Why'd they stop the action there? Why is that guy
going off the ice? What's an offside, Daddy? Icing, doesn't
that go on cake? How come those guys make so much money?
Hockey is not comprehensible beyond the "puck goes in score is
made" level, precisely the same as "single coloured light goes
on score is made" level in fencing (alternatively, the "I just
heard the president say what the score is so I know who's
winning" level).
: > Clear masks won't help a bit. No, no..forget it...that's
: > just silly. Really... how often can you see the quarterback's
: > face? Almost never - certainly not often enough to matter.
: > So that chucks that theory into a cocked hat, doesn't it?
: I expect clear masks would help a little bit, they just wouldn't solve the
: whole problem. They would let people "feel" what the fencer was feeling
Well I'll tell you, I often make faces at my opponents, or
in really intense situations keep up a running monologue between
actions about what a repulsive, scum-sucking snake he is (it keeps
me focussed and, you know, some of them are)(Hi, Ed)(just kidding)
So I don't want anyone looking at my face, pretty though it may
be.
Jeff
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
J. Jeffrey O'Brien, aka jjob...@unixg.ubc.ca or obr...@slais.ubc.ca
School of Library, Archival and Information Studies
University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jon Jeffrey O'Brien
of the 20-odd responses to this thread:
Fencing doesn't need clear masks, pretty jackets, or
presidents who call the hits in a clear, comprehensible
fashion (...okay, that last would be nice, but it wouldn't
help our popularity any, right?)...what it needs is a big
mothering scandal attached to it. A death, preferably
murder...at a tournament...or no! A duel, fought in the
traditional way with sharpened epees...someone dies...okay,
that's going to be tough getting someone to go along with
this part. But think: it will take us away from the prissy
guys in white tights image to something more modern, more
darkly urban bravado-esque. What could be more 20th
centry than murder? If we did it right, maybe with a bit
of amateur home video action going on, we could make all
of those stupid tabloid news shows - Hard Copy, E.T.,
A Current Affair, The National...who knows, maybe the
guys who make "COPS" will start busting fencing salles
on prime time TV?
A decent movie with a fencing theme might help too.
--
David 'Net.Farmer' Roth
powers that be could allow greater variety in uniforms for fencers. I
think as long as the target area is clearly distinguishable from the
off-target area (in sabre and foil), the actual colors shouldn't matter.
". . .the power of the imagination can actually change or seem to change
extraneous bodies, in cases where the power of the imagination is too
unrestrained. . ."
Kramer & Sprenger, *Malleus Maleficarum*
David Roth
dr...@lonestar.utsa.edu
Dick King
|> People keep talking about how to make fencing a more popular sport. It
|> won't ever be that popular as long as fencers' faces are hidden behind
|> the mask. The clear mask (if feasible) would make people identify with
|> the fencers, which is something necessary to reach a larger audience.
|> Otherwise, all fencers are pretty much anonymous to the casual observer.
|> They may as well be watching "rock 'em sock 'em robots" as far as they're
|> concerned.
|>
|> What do you think?
|> David Willis
|> dwi...@earthlink.net
It wouldn't surprise me if computer enhancement could show competitors' faces
in the TV picture without changing the masks at all. 'Twud be expen$ive,
though.
-dk
Dick King
|> Fencing is not as popular as it should be because it's based on the
|> premise of killing someone else. I think this makes it inherently taboo.
Er, in fencing you poke the other guy, and get compliments for particularly
light touches. Boxing, on the other hand, is based on the premise of knocking
the other guy unconscious, and a win where you accomplish this is considered
somehow better than one in which you outscore the other guy.
Boxing is popular, and there is no ball. There is not even a round object of
any sort except the bell.
|> For me, that makes it all the more interesting. Not in the literal sense,
|> of course. I also think that it's got a lot of baggage attached
|> pertaining to classism. Rich, white people etc.
I think that this is closer to the mark.
As evidence i recall tennis' increase in popularity when a new generation of
brash players came on the scene in the early 80's. And tennis has a ball, and
has always had a ball ;-) .
-dk
Natalia E
>Of course, if we had an american win the gold medal.
>..
>David Willis
>dwi...@earthlink.net
and if *she* were pretty and didn't make smart remarks about Disney
land...........we'd be all set.
I'm for the movie with a great fencing theme.
Nataliia.
Jon Jeffrey O'Brien
: What annoys me about watching fencing is the arrogant "victory" yells that some
: fencers insist on making every-time they manage to get a point. Also those
Boy, if you don't scream you ain't fencing.
It's an adrenalin thing...I guess you wouldn't
understand.
: -Mike Patterson (who believes in good sportsmanship)
-Jeff O'Brien (who likes to scream in public)
KATHLEEN GORMAN
>goalie behind it. And, even better, it gives fencers a little more room for
>creativity on their uniform. Granted, the mesh is not tight enough to get
>really intricate, but it might be fun to pull out an old mask and give it a
>try.
By adding a hat and some hair fencing masks can be made to look very
interesting. Of course that wouldn't work very well in foil and sabre if
the hair style interferes with the target area. :-)
Kathleen
Andrew Mullhaupt
: Boy, if you don't scream you ain't fencing.
: It's an adrenalin thing...I guess you wouldn't
: understand.
I used to yell occasionally, but now it is very rare. I don't
think it relates to excitement or tension. It's more like when
your capacity to handle the excitement and tension gets exceeded,
you yell. So as you grow up, yelling happens less often, at least
as far as I can see.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Natalia E
I have never really understood the need for the yell when a touch is made.
Is that just adrenalin, or an attempt to sway the director (referree,
whatever). I don't know if it is bad or good, but would appreciate it
being explained.
thanks.
Nataliia.
Morgan Burke
|> I think the popularity can be best increased by improving accessibility,
|> especially to youngsters. Either that, or doff the masks and sharpen the
|> points. That oughta get noticed real quick!
Back in the 17th century, prizefighting was done with weapons, not fists.
Typical matches involved quarterstaves and backswords (similar to sabres
but with blunted points to reduce the chance of fatalities). They were
incredibly bloody and gory affairs that found great popularity amongst
the WWF crowds of the day. Presumably the sword wounds were shallow and
carried a low risk of death; I don't know how the winners were decided.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
JBXRONLINE
Kung Foo TV series...sorry what the hell is his name?) is my new favorite
fencing film. I know it's not a new film - but so what. Harvey K. is
very cool And Resiviour Dogs is better than Pulp Fiction FYI...
oh right - fencing is better that real killing, too!
denise
jbxro...@AOL.com
*)
I----)------
/ )
/_ |_
Mark Leckie
>Ditto for fencing, which works well on TV, IMHO. The action is
>confined and tight, requiring few technical resources, and the short
>breaks are perfect for slo-mo replays of the last touch, with color
>commentary and analysis.
Actually, I've heard television people mention that fencing is NOT suited
for TV in that the action is small and closed and the blade motions are
too fast or slight to pick up well on tv, and also the blades themselves
were too thin to register properly.
I've seen television broadcasts that were okay, but they had to make
heavy (very heavy!) use of slo-mo replays or else the fencing phrase
wasn't really visible. The resolution was too coarse and the blades
moved too fast to be seen as anything other than a blur.
Excellent fencing is usually small-scale, tight movements that don't pick
up well on tv. Sports that generate lots of "excitement" involve either
extensive body movement, or else multi-player positional movement. Ice
skating and football/hockey are good examples.
A quick parry riposte just doesn't have the big movement that shows up
well on the telly.
Martial arts movies usually contain overblown, hugely exaggerated
movements that make the true practitioner groan, but make the uninitiated
think the same movements are powerful or bold.
The same difference with stage fencing and real fencing.
Ed Mou.
(Please, no email to this account.)
JBXRONLINE
CLEAR uniforms for god sakes! That'll get your rating up.
Stan Scan Yen - Sun BOS Hardware
nata...@aol.com (Natalia E) writes:
>
> [ quotes some other folks, but I haven't the slightest
> idea who said what so I'm deleting all attribution... ]
>
> Comment 1:
>: What annoys me about watching fencing is the arrogant "victory" yells
>: that some fencers insist on making every-time they manage to get a point.
>
>: Boy, if you don't scream you ain't fencing.
>:It's an adrenalin thing...I guess you wouldn't
>:understand.
>I have never really understood the need for the yell when a touch is made.
> Is that just adrenalin, or an attempt to sway the director (referree,
>whatever). I don't know if it is bad or good, but would appreciate it
>being explained.
Well, I fence epee, and have been known to scream on occasion, so I
don't really think is has a whole lot to do with trying to influence
a director.
Anyway, I pretty much disagreed with both of the quoted comments.
Yelling isn't always about getting in your opponents face (although I
have seen cases where it has been...), but just because you don't scream
or yell doesn't mean you aren't fencing and fighting just as hard.
Generalizing, yelling often occurs as an automatic response to release
energy - whether from excitement, the breaking of tension (like scoring
a touch during a really close, hard-fought bout), and the like.
I think I yell for two reasons: when I get excited that I've made a
really nice touch (either clean, or well executed) and when I'm down
and trying to get myself back into a bout. [when I'm 'psyched' or
trying to get myself 'psyched.'] For the latter, When I start coming
back getting touches, I'm trying to force myself to maintain my intensity
and focus rather than feel relief that I'm finally hitting my opponent
(and thus prematurely relax).
Actually, make that three reasons. I'm also the one with the primal
scream when I'm down and I'm pissed at myself for not staying focused.
(Perhaps you heard me in San Francisco? ;)
Oddly enough, I didn't yell much (or at all) until after I met my
(now) wife. Something about unlocking my emotions, maybe?
I do have a funny yelling story. A director, er, referee, once told me
about a sabre fencer. Whenever he got a good touch, he would just turn
around and get back on guard. Whenever he didn't think he got the touch,
he would always make a loud yell and then look at the director.
I guess sometimes it doesn't pay to be consistent.
Just my 2 bits.
-Stan
--
Stanl...@East.Sun.COM "Samurai...they smile never, very brave, pretty swords
st...@rodan.East.Sun.COM ...like their water hot, serious, eat raw fish"
(508)442-0172 -Oingo Boingo
Check out the BFC home page: "file://ftp.std.com/pub/fencing/bfc.html"
Scott Silvey
# Back in the 17th century, prizefighting was done with weapons, not fists.
# Typical matches involved quarterstaves and backswords (similar to sabres
# but with blunted points to reduce the chance of fatalities). They were
# incredibly bloody and gory affairs that found great popularity amongst
# the WWF crowds of the day.
You know, I think you might have a point here. What modern fencing needs
is more blood!
Boy, that would sure up the attention level with the average TV viewer...
Great idea!
Scott
Jon Jeffrey O'Brien
: Jon Jeffrey O'Brien (jjob...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: : Boy, if you don't scream you ain't fencing.
: : It's an adrenalin thing...I guess you wouldn't
: : understand.
: I used to yell occasionally, but now it is very rare. I don't
: think it relates to excitement or tension.
I imagine this depends on the person. I never used to yell,
thinking that people would think poorly of me...
: It's more like when
: your capacity to handle the excitement and tension gets exceeded,
: you yell.
Definitely this happens too, although I have seen fencers
who screamed after hits to try and pull up their own
excitement levels...doesn't work for me, but anything that
gets you focussed is a good thing, I would say.
: So as you grow up, yelling happens less often, at least
: as far as I can see.
Hmmmm....not sure I see how this follows. Are you saying
that fencing gets boring when you get old? God I hope not.
Luckily for me, I'm as grown up as I plan to get. :-]
Ken Witmyer
Sure, yelling can be an adrenaline thing, but then lots of things can be said
to be things that they are really not. In my experience screaming has been a
way of intimidating the opponent, trying to sway the director, being arrogant,
whatever, take your pick. There are times when a good grunt or a quiet yell
are good to give yourself to pat on the back but screaming is right out. Oh
well, that's my opinion, tear me apart if ya want but that's been my
experience.
Morgan Burke
|> By adding a hat and some hair fencing masks can be made to look very
|> interesting. Of course that wouldn't work very well in foil and sabre if
|> the hair style interferes with the target area. :-)
But the ponytail defense against the flick to the back is already
a well-established foil tactic. ;-)
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Desiree Michele Fulford
: Back in the 17th century, prizefighting was done with weapons, not fists.
: Typical matches involved quarterstaves and backswords (similar to sabres
: but with blunted points to reduce the chance of fatalities). They were
: incredibly bloody and gory affairs that found great popularity amongst
: the WWF crowds of the day. Presumably the sword wounds were shallow and
: carried a low risk of death; I don't know how the winners were decided.
Actually, prizefighting first started with swords. They were a
nobleman's pastime; going to watch the duels. Fisticuffs ("boxing") was
considered the sport of the lower-class, unworthy of a noble's interest,
and initially was used to help fill in the gaps between the sword fights.
Economies of scale set in, and boxing grew in popularity while
swordfighting declined and then disappeared.
Ed Mou.
Noah Lee Zucker
> I have never really understood the need for the yell when a touch is
made.
> Is that just adrenalin, or an attempt to sway the director (referree,
> whatever). I don't know if it is bad or good, but would appreciate it
> being explained.
> Nataliia.
Well, if you watch the tapes of the olympics, even epee fencers in the
finals yell, despite any need to sway the director. There is no real
"reason" for yelling except that it's fun and if your director doesn't
mind you doing it it can majorly psyche out your opponent. I don't yell as
much as I used to, but I still have a reputation with other juniors for
doing so. At any rate, one guy told me in san fransico that my yelling
used to psyche out alot of people, something that I didn't intend at the
time. When I yell, it just happens, I don't sit there and plan it out like
some sort of devious tactic to screw up my opponent. And if it breaks
their concentration, or pisses them off, or strikes them as funny, it's a
positive side affect as far as I'm concerned.
What I don't like is when other fencers get in the other guy's face and
scream, especially if they just won the bout. I'm refering to when it's
intentionally trying to start a fight or something. That's unnessary.
I've had people do that to me, however, and ussually I don't care because
I don't even notice they're doing it. I'm to busy thinking about the next
touch(anyone who saw me fence Eric Hansen in San Fran over the weekend
could attest to this).
-noah"I duck if they start throwing punches"zucker
Desiree Michele Fulford
: coloured uniforms. I believe the new rules do allow
: for pastel colours, do they not? (Morgan? Someone?)
:
Yes, I don't have the rules beside me as I write this, but I believe the
language in the rule amendments allow for the uniforms to be either
"white or of a single lightly-shaded color". Other translations employ
the term "pastel".
Ed Mou.
Jon Jeffrey O'Brien
: : What annoys me about watching fencing is the arrogant "victory" yells
: that some
: : fencers insist on making every-time they manage to get a point. Also
: those
: I have never really understood the need for the yell when a touch is made.
: Is that just adrenalin, or an attempt to sway the director (referree,
: whatever). I don't know if it is bad or good, but would appreciate it
: being explained.
Not really a bad or good thing. Sometimes fencers yell in order
to try and sway the president...I've done it myself when I thought
I got the hit but wasnt' sure how the president was going to call
it. But mostly it's an emotional "Good-god-I-can't-believe-I-made-
that-hit" sort of thing, for me anyway, especially when fighting
someone better than me. A long time ago I asked my then-coach
(a French Canadian) if he thought yelling after a hit made you
look bad and he just laughed and made some crack about "f----g
Anglos..." the implication being that only a person of english
descent would be uptight enough to even consider asking the
question.
Jeff
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Andrew Mullhaupt
: One of the conventions followed was that drawing cuts were
: not allowed. A cut from the wrist left a much smaller
: wound than one where the weapon was laid to the skin and
: drawn backwards! I think this must be the historical basis
: of today's regulation sabre cut.
I don't think so. In the beginning, sabre fencers were required to make
'wet' cuts or else the touch was not awarded. In other words, you did
not get a touch if you just applied today's usual 'dry' cut. I don't know
when they changed this, but it was long after prizefighting.
Also - there is essentially no regulation of today's cuts, since anything
that sets off the machine is counted and anything that does not, does not.
This means that the flat of the blade counts, etc. There really isn't a
'regulation cut' any more.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Andrew Mullhaupt
: : So as you grow up, yelling happens less often, at least
: : as far as I can see.
: Hmmmm....not sure I see how this follows. Are you saying
: that fencing gets boring when you get old? God I hope not.
: Luckily for me, I'm as grown up as I plan to get. :-]
Well, fencing only gets boring as you grow up if they ban the fleche in
your weapon, which was not related to the fact that I grew up. Or at least
I think it wasn't... No, what happens is that excitement and tension do
different things to you as you mature. In sabre, you develop a very large
store of things you've experienced before, and you are constantly searching
for the emotional match to the half hidden clues to what has been going on,
and 'charting the pitches' that you and your opponent are throwing against
each other. This sort of happens in foil, I really can't say about epee.
But as you expand your comprehension of the game, more and more of your
energy gets put to use instead of vented. You have to do more and more
things to keep an edge when your eyesight and reaction times are just a
hair off what they used to be. Yelling fits in less and less as useful
and necessary - you have other more important things to do. When you're
a kid riding your magic reaction times, you tend not to do as much thinking.
Don't anyone take this as some sort of swipe at teenage thought patterns,
what I am saying is that however much thinking you do when you're 18 you
do twice as much when you're 36. It's also a different flavor of 'thinking'
which leaves less room for vented emotions.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Noah Lee Zucker
> (a French Canadian) if he thought yelling after a hit made you
> look bad and he just laughed and made some crack about "f----g
> Anglos..." the implication being that only a person of english
> descent would be uptight enough to even consider asking the
> question.
> Jeff
Ummmm, so did he think it was okay or not?
I clearly remember seeing Phillipe Riboud screaming(with a fist in the air
no less)in a tape of the 88 olympics. So if a french dude can do it it
must be okay with French canadians too...
Kelly Ringwald
> Is that just adrenalin, or an attempt to sway the director (referree,
>whatever). I don't know if it is bad or good, but would appreciate it
>being explained.
For me it seems to be related to adrenaline and effort. I yell when I'm
going all out. Thus, I do my best fencing when I'm yelling. I love it when
an opponent yells in my face. That always kick starts my adrenal glands and
gets me yelling back and fencing hard. However, (or maybe because of that) I
try to remember not to direct it towards my opponent.
Regards,
Kelly
Jon Jeffrey O'Brien
: In article <3fl2jd$a...@nnrp.ucs.ubc.ca>, jjob...@unixg.ubc.ca (Jon Jeffrey O'Brien) writ
: >
: >
: > Boy, if you don't scream you ain't fencing.
: > It's an adrenalin thing...I guess you wouldn't
: > understand.
: >
: >
: In my experience screaming has been a
: way of intimidating the opponent, trying to sway the director, being arrogant,
: whatever, take your pick.
I guess that's you, then, isn't it?
I do think that sticking your face up against the other
opponent's mask and screaming at him is probably...well...just
a bit rude :-] ... but that's not what we're talking about here.
: There are times when a good grunt or a quiet yell
: are good to give yourself to pat on the back but screaming is right out. Oh
No. I often quietly *chastise* myself (as in "f-----g idiot! Stop
watching his point!)(or whatever) but screaming during a bout
occurs during a moment of uncontrollable exultation. Perhaps there
are those who think it "uncool" or something to make loud noises
in public places...too bad for them, I say. It's part of the sport.
If you can't scream during fencing, when the hell can you?
: well, that's my opinion, tear me apart if ya want but that's been my
: experience.
Why should I? Not all fencers feel the same way about fencing
as I do and maybe not all of them get the same things out of
it that I do. So if you don't feel comfortable yelling funny
things like "Epee-la!" in a gym full of people...fer god's
sake, don't do it!
: -Ken Witmyer
: IUP Fencing Club
--
Solomander
a slam dunk. I would never yell to offend or to psych out. Actually, the
yells just sort of come out on their own. It is interesting to hear that
people do it in a pre-meditated way.
Joel
Tony Kondo
On Thu, 19 Jan 1995, KATHLEEN GORMAN wrote:
> In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.950118...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> "David 'Net.Farmer' Roth" <dr...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> writes:
> >Rather than using clear masks (which would still be great), perhaps the
> >powers that be could allow greater variety in uniforms for fencers. I
> >think as long as the target area is clearly distinguishable from the
> >off-target area (in sabre and foil), the actual colors shouldn't matter.
>
> I doubt the original white and silver colouring was designed to make the
> target distinguishable because they aren't contrasting colours.
>
> Kathleen
>
>
Dakin Burdick
JBXRONLINE <jbxro...@aol.com> wrote:
>Fencing is not as popular as it should be because it's based on the
>premise of killing someone else. I think this makes it inherently taboo.
Then why have all the karate schools been so successful?
> I also think that it's got a lot of baggage attached
>pertaining to classism. Rich, white people etc. This is too bad, because
>many of us are not white and most of the fencers I know are very poor!
Well, you have to have some cash to afford the equipment! And yes,
I do regard that as a problem. Wasn't Alexandre Dumas black?
You'd think that would attract some more minorities.
Dakin Burdick
are very few people in fencing, IMHO, because:
1. It costs a lot to buy the equipment (and even more for a set
of electric -- I'm not a fan of electric).
2. It is too specialized. Ever notice how many people on this
group are into Elizabethan swordplay, kendo, or Taiji sword?
Those are the same folks who are usually turned off by flicks,
etc., and laughed at for practicing fencing for "self-defense".
The martial arts are pretty popular in the US right now, but
fencers go out of their way to annoy/ridicule them. Why not
suck them in with more old-style fencing?
Dakin Burdick
Noah Lee Zucker <nl...@muddnext20.cc.columbia.edu> wrote:
You know, when I started fencing (around ten years ago), my
instructor emphasized courtesy and sportsmanship. He stressed that
etiquette was most important when playing with long pieces of steel,
and besides, he said, we should behave like gentlemen. It may have
been a myth, but we did behave better, were overly polite, and had
a great time as a result. Nowadays there are too many people
so thirsty for the win that they get ticked off when they lose or
snotty when they win.
>Well, if you watch the tapes of the olympics, even epee fencers in the
>finals yell, despite any need to sway the director.
Well, if you watch Olympic Taekwondo, you'll see some really poor
sportsmanship as well. So what?
> There is no real
>"reason" for yelling except that it's fun and if your director doesn't
>mind you doing it it can majorly psyche out your opponent.
Read here: If your director allows you to get away with it.
>some sort of devious tactic to screw up my opponent. And if it breaks
>their concentration, or pisses them off, or strikes them as funny, it's a
>positive side affect as far as I'm concerned.
>
>What I don't like is when other fencers get in the other guy's face and
>scream, especially if they just won the bout. I'm refering to when it's
>intentionally trying to start a fight or something. That's unnessary.
Is it the intentional nature of the scream you don't like (lack of
control being better) or the violent, threatening nature? I would
agree with you on the latter.
Jon Jeffrey O'Brien
: Jon Jeffrey O'Brien (jjob...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: : : So as you grow up, yelling happens less often, at least
: : : as far as I can see.
: : Hmmmm....not sure I see how this follows. Are you saying
: : that fencing gets boring when you get old? God I hope not.
: : Luckily for me, I'm as grown up as I plan to get. :-]
: Well, fencing only gets boring as you grow up if they ban the fleche in
: your weapon, which was not related to the fact that I grew up. Or at least
: I think it wasn't... No, what happens is that excitement and tension do
: different things to you as you mature. In sabre, you develop a very large
[stuff deleted]
Andrew, I believe that you are engaging in the common fallacy of assuming
that one's own experience can be generalized as a "norm". This is patently
not the case. When I first started fencing, back in the days of dry sabre,
I immediately noticed that all sabreurs were "screaming maniacs" ... and
I will tell you that our local sabre population was between 25 and 45
years old. Screaming after a particularly joyous touch has nothing to
do with the mental calculations that make up a fencing bout.
: a kid riding your magic reaction times, you tend not to do as much thinking.
Tell that to the 18-20 year olds fighting for national team spots.
: what I am saying is that however much thinking you do when you're 18 you
: do twice as much when you're 36. It's also a different flavor of 'thinking'
In a fencing bout? I think the amount of thinking you do is
probably related to how well you know your sport. I know
18 year old's who have been fencing competitively for 6
or seven years, and 30-something beginners. Your generalization
is not appropriate. I *do* believe that a lot of what you do
on the piste is completely reflexive and that part of learning
to fence is getting those reflexes solidly entrenched. But that
has nothing to do with plotting tactics or noting weaknesses
etc etc...all that clever stuff.
Jeff "tries not to think twice as much as he did at 18" O'Brien
: Later,
: Andrew Mullhaupt
Matt Houlahan
> In article <3ffln6$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> JBXRONLINE <jbxro...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Fencing is not as popular as it should be because it's based on the
> >premise of killing someone else. I think this makes it inherently taboo.
>
> Then why have all the karate schools been so successful?
I've talked to alot of my friends about starting fencing, or even
stopping by the club for a while to watch, but most of them would rather
watch or learn karate or some similar martial art. They agree the both
might be fun, but they'd rather learn karate as a self defense form than
fencing. What I hear most commonly is "I'm probably not going to be
walking home late at night with a sword to defend myself" and for the
most part, I can't really blame them.
Two of the ways that my club advertises itself are the common "Fencing
for fun" and "try an authentic martial art" plugs. Compared to other
martial arts in this way, fencing just loses. If we compare fencing to
other martial arts, people usually use the above "I don't carry a sword
to defend myself" excuse. Fencing IS a martial art, but most people
mistakenly link "martial art" with "karate" or "tae kwon do" just
like they link "fencing" with "sword fighting." We've given up calling it
a martial art and are looking for other angles, but we still stress the
"fencing for fun" attitude even though it doesn't draw in as many people as
the "karate for utility" attitude does.
-Matt
Noah Lee Zucker
>
>Well, if you watch Olympic Taekwondo, you'll see some really poor
>sportsmanship as well. So what?
So, tough. That's the way it is. Read the rules(newly updated). As long
as the yell doesn't involve throwing the mask or equipment, nor cursing,
it is legal. Also, my point of that example was that if the guys in the
Olympics are allowed to do it, so are us little guys in the states. Maybe
you don't agree with it, but like I said, that's just the way it is, baby.
>> There is no real
>>"reason" for yelling except that it's fun and if your director doesn't
>>mind you doing it it can majorly psyche out your opponent.
>
>Read here: If your director allows you to get away with it.
Well, I do often get told by my directors to tone down my yelling or make
sure to face away from my opponent when I yell. But the directors are not
letting me "get away" with anything. The fact is, nick bravin and cliff bayer
in the gold medal MF match in SF last weekendwere yelling _with_virtually_
every_touch_ and the director(referee) simply
_didn't_care_. Most good directors are aware that yelling is an emotional
release, not an attempt to piss off your opponent.
Gee, I guess if you got to direct at a Open NAC like the one in San Fransico,
you'd be dishing out yellow cards left and right for poor sportsmanship, but
ummmmm, they probably would let you direct at a tournament again if you did.
You see, giving out lots of unneccessary penalties kinda pisses off everybody.
>Is it the intentional nature of the scream you don't like (lack of
>control being better) or the violent, threatening nature? I would
>agree with you on the latter.
The violent threatening nature. That's why if any of you do scream, make
sure it is facing away from your opponent.
Let me make one final point. Columbia had a meet with Yale on saturday. Now
anybody knows that college meets(especially with the 50 year old rivalries in
the ivies)are always super intense, with lots of screaming and jumping
around occuring on all sides. Anyway, this girl I know who came to watch us for a while said that she expected the fencing to be really quiet and
uninvolved(in other words boring)but the fact that both teams and the
fencers themselves"got into it"made it "exciting. She admitted that she
couldn't really follow what was going on but it was exciting!!!
To sum up the above paragraph, the naysayers who think that fencing can never
be a spectator sport should shut up and let the rest of us get down to
buisness in making the public aware of our action-packed, emotion and drama
filled SPORT.
noah
PS--shut up may sound kinda harsh, but I'm sick of people saying "uhhh, we
look like silly people in white suits, uhhh, nobody will ever watch us because
we don't involve a ball etc."
BTW-someone said that kids can relate to a sport which involved puting a
ball in the goal because everyone's played that type of game. Well, gee whiz,
EVERYONE'S played tag before(where you try not to get touched, right?)so
the concept of fencing should come across just fine, right?
ibo...@metz.une.edu.au
From: JBXRONLINE, jbxro...@aol.com
Date: 20 Jan 1995 02:30:29 -0500
Fencing suffers from one huge "liability". It is *not*
a spectator sport. To watch it and see what is really
happening is difficult and requires one to be reasonably
well-trained in the sport. Contrast that with the situaton
in tennis or any of the varieties of football. Thus fencing
cannot expect to draw large crowds. Hence it is not likely
to receive substantial publicity.
Add to this the more important difficulty, namely that of
learning to fence. It takes quite a while before a beginner
can expect to engage in freeplay and actually fence. The movements
are quite different from "normal" movements and a substantial
amount of training -- not to mention special equipment --- is
required if a beginner is not to endanger life and limb. Anyone can
be shown how to hold a tennis racquet and try to hit the ball back
within a few minutes, and taught to serve underarm and so play --
no matter how badly -- after the first lesson. Anyone who can run
and cary or kick a ball can be playing football -- whichever variety
on the first occasion. Fencing is definitely not like that!
d.A.
Noah Lee Zucker
>"fencing for fun" attitude even though it doesn't draw in as many people as
>the "karate for utility" attitude does.
>
>-Matt
That's why it's important to only loosely associate modern fencing with
sword fighting and advertise it as a SPORT (even though it is technically
a martial art). Modern fencing is not useful for combat because it is a
sport, just like modern archers a trained to hit a small target, not to
coordinate their actions with a hundred other archers in order to ward
off a massed calverly charge.
Once people realize that ancient sword fighting has developed into our
modern sport, yet is nothing like it but actually much more exciting,
then we'll see fencing take off in this country.
How do we do this? Exposure, exposure, exposure. Hopefully the USFA will
start pressing to get a tape of Nationals or something to play on ESPN(1or2)
or HSE. The existence of tons of junk sports on both these chanels proves
that a little heavy metal music and cool angles can make a success out of
anything.
David Richard Abbondanzio
Just to touch upon this yelling thing that has seriously gone
astray from the original point. I agree that the yelling is a great self-
psyche and intimidation tool (I use it myself). But it also can be very
annoying when some overuses (which I have also done). But all in all, I think
it's just another aspect of the game. Fencing is mental and if your tactic is
ot yell, scream or fart, So be it (well, try not to make them smell too bad),
your joba as that fencer's opponent is to mentally overcome it and still fence you best game.
About the original topic...(that would be whay is fencing not as popular.. if you don't remember). If you think about what makes sports popular to the american society is if it stacks up to the "Couch Potatoe" judges. Think about how many people sit back in their easy chair with a can of beer in one hand and the remote in the other watching games like football, baseball, basketball, and hockey. The reason those sports are so popular is that these people who watch them associate with them through their own towns. The TEAMS are fighting each other to be the best so that their city can have bragging rights. Those channel surfers are getting an ego over something they really didn't actively have a part in except writing the check to their local cable company...
Now think about fencing. It's an individual sport. How many individual sports do you know of that are as popular as the CP specials (I exclude Golf from this lest, because the CP's actually play this game due to it's lack of physical requirements..this would probably lead me to another post not approprate for this forum). Anyway..Who can get wriled up over one person winning a fencing tournament besides that fencer. To the average viewer this is very boring because it lacks the association.
To make Fencing popular, we have to appeal to the increasing channel surfer populataion, Dude! Maybe if we went to a more team or club oriented format we could get the support. But this would mean a USFA league of some sort...ooooh fencing draft picks..sounds cool to me.
Anyway, that's what I think.
-Dave
abb...@rpi.edu
Celia Courtright
(much deleted)
>time. When I yell, it just happens, I don't sit there and plan it out like
>some sort of devious tactic to screw up my opponent. And if it breaks
>their concentration, or pisses them off, or strikes them as funny, it's a
>positive side affect as far as I'm concerned.
>
>What I don't like is when other fencers get in the other guy's face and
>scream, especially if they just won the bout. I'm refering to when it's
>intentionally trying to start a fight or something. That's unnessary.
How about when the screaming distracts people fencing on OTHER
strips? I was scoring the women's epee at the Yale-Columbia meet
Saturday, and the fencers on that strip stopped and began looking
around to see who was being murdered/seriously injured. Some yelling
does go with the sport, but not long, drawn-out battle cries like I heard.
Just my opinion,
Celia Courtright
Randell Jesup
>You need fencers before you get big crowds to watch them. There
>are very few people in fencing, IMHO, because:
>
>1. It costs a lot to buy the equipment (and even more for a set
> of electric -- I'm not a fan of electric).
Electric foil: not too bad, though I don't really care for it.
Electric epee: fine.
Electric sabre: abomination.
And, as you said, it ups the entry costs (not to mention the "change
the uniform rules every year" problem).
>2. It is too specialized. Ever notice how many people on this
> group are into Elizabethan swordplay, kendo, or Taiji sword?
> Those are the same folks who are usually turned off by flicks,
> etc., and laughed at for practicing fencing for "self-defense".
> The martial arts are pretty popular in the US right now, but
> fencers go out of their way to annoy/ridicule them. Why not
> suck them in with more old-style fencing?
Yeah! Let's bring back 1900-era sabres! 1/2 :-)
Note that I'm a sabre/foilist, and also a kenjutsu-ka, and (though
not recently) an SCA heavy weapon fighter, and some iaido and kendo.
Seriously, 1900-era sabres where much slower and much more "dramatic"
than modern light, whippy sabres. It would be far easier to at least follow
the blades. The downside would be the bruises and heavier padding needed.
Beyond that, to such them in you'd probably have to bring back
rapier styles (ala SCA fencing), which has a probability between none and
when hell freezes over in the FIE. 1900-era sabres merely has a likelyhood
of fat chance. It might be interesting to try, though. Does anyone still sell
such sabres, or must they be bought from antiques dealers? I've seen a pair
locally at gun shows, but I think he's asking $90 each. Who knows, if it
became popular with grassroots fencers it might work it's way up (like women's
epee and now sabre are doing).
--
Randell Jesup, Scala US R&D
Randel...@scala.com
Ex-Commodore-Amiga Engineer, class of '94
#include <std/disclaimer>
Mary Ellen Curtin
>: It's an adrenalin thing...I guess you wouldn't
>: understand.
>
>your capacity to handle the excitement and tension gets exceeded,
>as far as I can see.
For a while, my fencing master actually tried to encourage me to yell
when making a touch, but he finally gave up. It never came naturally
to me -- in fencing. I think the 8 years I spent training in Tae Kwon Do
before I took up fencing have made it impossible for me to yell like that
without "focusing," and concomitantly locking all my muscles; not a
good idea in fencing. On the other hand, having had so many TKD opponents
bellow in my face, I now just smile fondly at the macho fencers who think
they know how to yell.
Dirk Goldgar
internet: <p01...@psilink.com>
postal: 9 Titus Mill Rd., Pennington, NJ 08534, USA
Noah Lee Zucker
>strips? I was scoring the women's epee at the Yale-Columbia meet
>Saturday, and the fencers on that strip stopped and began looking
>around to see who was being murdered/seriously injured. Some yelling
>
>Just my opinion,
>Celia Courtright
I-rony! That fencer was ME!
Just taking the fight song "roar, lion, roar" literally
On to Rutgers!!!!
Jonathan Shea
compicated, and with out expirence it is hard to figure what is going on.
To most spectators it is just two people hitting swords, and moving back
and forth really fast, which is really cool and dazeling for awhile, but
gets boring.
Morgan Burke
|> Yeah! Let's bring back 1900-era sabres! 1/2 :-)
|> Seriously, 1900-era sabres where much slower and much more "dramatic"
|> than modern light, whippy sabres. It would be far easier to at least follow
|> the blades. The downside would be the bruises and heavier padding needed.
Apparently the FIE is considering stiffer sabres, although that doesn't
necessarily mean they are any heavier.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
EpeeLady
>In article <3ffln6$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> jbxro...@aol.com
>(JBXRONLINE) writes:
>Fencing is not as popular as it should be because it's based on the
>premise of killing someone else. I think this makes it inherently taboo.
>>So's wrestling. (Of course wrestling is aimed at a lower intelligence
level)
>of course. I also think that it's got a lot of baggage attached
>pertaining to classism. Rich, white people etc. This is too bad,
because
>many of us are not white and most of the fencers I know are very poor!
>>Is that because most of them are college students?
Nooo, most of the people I fence are not students. They are all ages.
And the club is just getting by - no one has a lot of money. People are
very concerned about fees and all that. This is not an affluent crowd.
if NIKE sponsored a ranking fencer at ort club it would change a lot. I'm
working on ideas for building memebership.. Please post to that thread!
My sincere thanks,
Kathleen
EpeeLady
>KNGO...@ARTSPAS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (KATHLEEN GORMAN) writes:
>|> By adding a hat and some hair fencing masks can be made to look very
>>|> interesting. Of course that wouldn't work very well in foil and
sabre if
|> the hair style interferes with the target area. :-)
A fencing HAT! What grand Idea...I'm all for this. Not all the time -
special occasions perhaps. You wouldn't want to wear a good idea out.
People often refer to my mask as a HAT, which is so annoying really. I
try not to let their ignorance piss me off - because it's not NICE - but
still I wish people would just get their terminology straight. I mean if
I was wearing my MASK as a HAT, I'd have it on at cocktail parties and the
like, right??? Ta Ta!
epeelady
EpeeLady
>From: mch...@crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
>Date: 19 Jan 1995 06:43:21 -0800
>rie...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Christopher Marco Rieflin) writes:
>Rather than going to a plex mask (which would glare, get scratched, and
>deteriorate under UV light), why not try painting them a la hockey
goalkeepers?
>Anyone who even casually follows hockey realizes that, to John Q. Public
(where
>did the "Q" come from anyway?), a really cool facemask must have a really
cool
>goalie behind it. And, even better, it gives fencers a little more room
for
>creativity on their uniform. Granted, the mesh is not tight enough to
get
>really intricate, but it might be fun to pull out an old mask and give it
a
>try.
>Personally, I think that abandoning the "all-white" uniforms and
>allowing uniforms in team/school colors w/ logos, names, etc., would be
>a _big_ improvement. It would seem the the need for the white
>uniforms has long since past.
The need for all white uniforms is based soley in tradition. If we
collectively agreee that tradtition is integral to the sport - OK fine, we
keep white uniforms. I'm in the camp that bucks tradition in favour of
moving forward - so as to not risk extinction. It's survivalist theory
101. But remember, you invite some very odd marriages when you go looking
for corporate sponsoships. Just don't bite the hand that feeds. TA!
epee...@aol.com
EpeeLady
>Let me make one final point. Columbia had a meet with Yale on saturday.
Now
>anybody knows that college meets(especially with the 50 year old
rivalries in
>the ivies)are always super intense, with lots of screaming and jumping
>around occuring on all sides.
READ THIS:
>Anyway, this girl I know who came to watch us for a while said that she
expected the fencing to be really quiet and
>uninvolved(in other words boring)but the fact that both teams and the
>fencers themselves"got into it"made it "exciting. She admitted that she
>couldn't really follow what was going on but it was exciting!!!
So, noah (doing the fencing PR thang) zucker, I want to know more about
why your friend found this exciting - yet could not follow the action! I
think I would have to agree with whomever was posting along the line of:
fencing is percieved to be taboo because i't's about killing someone else.
(which is why it CONVERSLY makes it so enticing) It kind of gets people
off (the spectator) - yet in the SPORTS world this is not ever
discussed. Is this what was so appealing to your friend? Or was it just
fit bodies in tight whites? Hoping for the former..yours,
epeelady
dva...@squash.flw.att.com
Celia Courtright <cel...@minerva.cis.yale.edu> wrote:
>How about when the screaming distracts people fencing on OTHER
>strips?
What about the high frequency screams that typically indicate
Women's Foil is occurring? I quickly look around me to avoid
any exposed glass that might shatter.
Doug Varney
dva...@att.com
Jeffery L. Cousens
>>From: nl...@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Noah Lee Zucker)
>>Anyway, this girl I know who came to watch us for a while said that she
>>expected the fencing to be really quiet and
>>uninvolved(in other words boring)but the fact that both teams and the
>>fencers themselves"got into it"made it "exciting. She admitted that she
>>couldn't really follow what was going on but it was exciting!!!
>
>So, noah (doing the fencing PR thang) zucker, I want to know more about
>why your friend found this exciting - yet could not follow the action! I
>think I would have to agree with whomever was posting along the line of:
>fencing is percieved to be taboo because i't's about killing someone else.
>(which is why it CONVERSLY makes it so enticing) It kind of gets people
>off (the spectator) - yet in the SPORTS world this is not ever
>discussed. Is this what was so appealing to your friend? Or was it just
>fit bodies in tight whites? Hoping for the former..yours,
It strikes me that the most what would hook someone who had no clue what
was going on would be the sense of conflict. As an aside to this, one need only
look at chess. You can hardly say that the game of chess is any easier to
understand than a fencing match for the uninitiated, yet many people know about
the game. I would guess that more fencers know who the current world chess
champion is than the current world fencing champion (in any weapon). What brings
people into the game of chess is the conflict (strange but true). Now I would say
much of the following of chess dates back to Bobby Fischer. It was said of Bobby
Fischer after he won the World Chess Crown that he could demand the same money as
the World Heavyweight Champ for the lecture circut and get it. People still
follow it today.
People were drawn in by a game of East meets West. Chess is a violent
game where the players are taught to hate each other without having ever met.
In the 1978 World Championship Match between Karpov and Korchnoi, they had to
construct a special board under the table to prevent the players from kicking
each other. The game is surrounded by contraversy and conflict. People are
drawn in by the conflict.
This parallels the popularity of fencing and the shouting thread. The fact
that Noah was screaming so loud that people thought that someone was being killed
brought people into the match. It is simmilar to when people rubberneck on the
highway when driving past an accident. When there is a conflict, people are drawn
in. To steal someone elses words on this (actually, on chess, but the same
conflict):
"You can raise all you want/If you raise the roof
Scream and shout and the gate increases" (from Chess)
The more contraversy and conflict that exists, the more that there is for people
to get into.
just my 2ยข (and maybe just a looney theory)
---- | " This is the way the world ends
Jeffrey L Cousens | This is the way the world ends
jeff...@merle.acns.nwu.edu | This is the way the world ends
Northwestern University | Not with a bang but a whimper" T.S. Eliot
Noah Lee Zucker
>expected the fencing to be really quiet and
>>uninvolved(in other words boring)but the fact that both teams and the
>>fencers themselves"got into it"made it "exciting. She admitted that she
>>couldn't really follow what was going on but it was exciting!!!
>
>fit bodies in tight whites? Hoping for the former..yours,
Basically, she couldn't understand what was going on because it was the first
time she'd seen fencing. I probably should have taken the time to explain to
her how to tell who just got a point etc(by looking at the director for foil
&sabre, and the lights for epee). Everytime I see wrestling, I have no
idea who scored or how, but if it looks exciting and your side just won/lost
its enough to be interesting. Nobody understands a sport the first time they
see it(think about scoring in tennis for example) but it usually doesn't take
very long for someone to figure it out after they see it a couple times.
Patrick Market
>I don't think it's ever going to be a popular spectator sport. You can make
>minor alternations but you can't change fencing into what it isn't. To get
>more people fencing, it's a question of making it more accesible. Most
>people know of it but don't know where it is.
Bravo. Mega-dittos. Accesibility is the key to expanding the visibility
of fencing. There have been many recent discussions in this newsgroup
about how to change fencing to make it more interesting to watch. Maybe
that shouldn't be our goal.
Recruiting more fencers is the way to go---that's the way to accesibility.
The best spectators I've met were fellow fencers. Just a thought.
Pat Market,
Saint Louis University
Mike Buckley
Natalia E <nata...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I have never really understood the need for the yell when a touch is made.
> Is that just adrenalin, or an attempt to sway the director (referree,
>whatever). I don't know if it is bad or good, but would appreciate it
>being explained.
Well, I can think of many different reasons. For some, it is a
premeditated attempt to intimidate the opponent. These tend to be
the halitosis-in-your-face kind of yells. In the conventional
weapons, it can be an attempt to sway the director. In men's epee,
there is a certain level of controlled aggression and the yell tends
to be a natural extension of that. There are many different yells for
many different reasons.
My first yell of the day tends to come during my second (or so) DE
bout. It is exultation, pure and simple. The joy of a much needed,
strong touch is overwhelming. If the shout reinforces the
demoralising quality of a good hit, so much the better.
The best yells come later in the day, like the round of 16 at
Desjarlais last weekend. Watching a beast like Bakos get all pumped
up and roar after a stunning hit is awesome. It brings a real feeling
of mortal danger to the event.
Occasionally, I use grunts bring my intensity level up, but these then
to be quiet, personal affairs. Not for public consumption. When I'm
really desperate, I start to snarl to myself. I imagine I'd have to
stop that if clear masks were introduced. I'd be mortally embarrassed
to be seen grimacing and snorting, desperately trying to find some
spring left in my aching legs.
Some might wonder if all this noise is sporting. I'd have to grant
that it walks a fine line. In epee, it seems very much part of the
character of the weapon. As for sabre, it seems traditional (although
in a more controlled form). In foil, who knows? When it gets too
loud, the president should just request that it be controlled. No big
deal. All in all, it seems fine to me.
As for people complaining that fencers are trying to sway the
president in the conventional weapons: They probably are and will
continue to, as long as they think it is affecting the outcome of the
bout. God help you if you draw a president susceptible to mere
shouts. What will gumby do when your opponent starts to (gasp) wave
their hands and talk? Or when some fiery coach starts to chew them
out? As for sportsmanship, if your presidents are malleable, you'd be
a fool not to sway them your way.
--
-- Mike Buckley
DOUGLAS W HIGGINS
It's not a good idea to lock-up in TKD either (at least I don't think
so, I did Shotokan myself, and it was definitely bad in Shotokan. The
kiai was to focus, but you never locked).
In fencing I yell, but not the same sort of yell. In karate I say
"HUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!"
In fencing I say: "HUUH!" and "UR-HAOH!"
Depending on whether I'm doing a simple or compound move. My
instructor taught us to say "a la" to help us learn to make our
compound moves flow smoothly, but it did not satisfy my Celtic
nature.
When I'm surprised or excited though, I don't make a sound, I find
that the more intense I get, the more quiet I get. Doesn't seem
to have much to do with maturity though (in some of my more recent
matches I've behaved exceedingly immature, and should have been
red carded. I would have given me a red card...)
Doug
Chris Richardson
KNGO...@ARTSPAS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca says...
>
>
>By adding a hat and some hair fencing masks can be made to look very
>interesting. Of course that wouldn't work very well in foil and sabre if
>the hair style interferes with the target area. :-)
>
I'm not picking on Kathleen in particular but I feel that everyone is missing a
big point:
The object is surely to make it exciting; this is what brings the viewers in and
ultimately coverage, sponsorship, etc.
To this end the fencing bodies ought to be more flexible while keeping safety
firmly in mind.
Kind regards - Chris Richardson
Chris Richardson
>
>JBXRONLINE (jbxro...@aol.com) wrote:
>: pertaining to classism. Rich, white people etc. This is too bad, because
>: many of us are not white and most of the fencers I know are very poor!
>
>days per week), educated (over half seem to be in grad school), middle
>class or starving student (no jet setters here). As far as race goes,
>its pretty well mixed.
>
>Hardly the rich, spoiled foppish elitist sport many people think it to
>be. (Someone once commented to me "..you fence? isn't that a sport for
>snobs?")
>
Yeah . . . Right . . .
Proves the point though that it's not reality that we're trying to promote. There's
enough anecdotal evidence to the contrary; noone's trying to suggest that fencing is
riddled with classism or anyotherism - we have to attack the public perception of the
sport to improve things.
Kind regards - Chris Richardson
"Don't lose your head" - Juan Sanchez Ramirez
Chris Richardson
>
>
>>Of course, if we had an american win the gold medal.
>>..
>>David Willis
>>dwi...@earthlink.net
>
>and if *she* were pretty and didn't make smart remarks about Disney
>land...........we'd be all set.
>
>I'm for the movie with a great fencing theme.
>
It doesn't have to be the central theme; the movie could be about anything but:
1. It must be a box-office success
2. One (or more) of the main characters must be a fencer
3. The fencing aspect should be shown in a positive light
Chris Richardson
>
>m...@sparc.cs.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
>
>: What annoys me about watching fencing is the arrogant "victory" yells
that some
>: fencers insist on making every-time they manage to get a point. Also
those
>
> Boy, if you don't scream you ain't fencing.
> It's an adrenalin thing...I guess you wouldn't
> understand.
>
>
Screaming just wastes energy - both physical and psychological.
In terms of pure gamesmanship though, if it puts your opponent off and
makes his technique deteriorate, go for it but don't become emotionally
dependent on it.
Works for me and I get a great adrenalin rush without uttering a sound.
Morgan Burke
|> Basically, she couldn't understand what was going on because it was the first
|> time she'd seen fencing. I probably should have taken the time to explain to
|> her how to tell who just got a point etc(by looking at the director for foil
I had a friend who came out to a few tournaments to watch, in spite of
having no fencing experience whatsoever. After a single tournament she
understood the fundamentals of scoring and phrasing, and after about
three she had a fairly sophisticated spectator's grasp of the sport, and
could read the phrase, distinguish the nicer touches, spot the better
fencers without the benefit of first knowing the score, and even question
the referee's calls. She had some officiating experience in other sports,
so perhaps she has a talent for spectating, but I don't think it's very
hard.
I believe foil is the easiest to watch, due to the phrasing. Most of the
time it is easy to pick out the agressor, and s/he gets the point unless
s/he misses. That's not to hard to grasp, and becomes easier once you can
follow a phrase past the first counter-riposte. Sabre is potentially even
easier to watch since fewer attacks miss and there are no off-targets, but
the short phrasing and all those silly simultaneous attacks tend to bore
and perplex people.
Paradoxically I think epee is the toughest to watch, in spite of its
simple scoring system. It is very difficult to read the phrasing in
an epee bout, and to an untrained eye it looks like two guys bobbing and
jerking for a long time until suddenly both go at the same time and only
one light goes on. Unless you get a lot of corps-a-corps, powerful
attacks, and heartfelt screaming (did someone mention Bakos?), it takes
a fairly sophisticated spectator to understand what is happening, beyond
the score.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
TheBots
What about football??
TheBots
sratch coating.....
Kevin Phillips
In article <AB497A34...@sobers.une.edu.au>, ibo...@metz.une.edu.au (ibo...@metz.une.edu.au) writes:
>Subject: Re: Why fencing isn't as popular as it could be
>Date: 20 Jan 1995 02:30:29 -0500
>
>Fencing suffers from one huge "liability". It is *not*
>a spectator sport. To watch it and see what is really
>happening is difficult and requires one to be reasonably
>well-trained in the sport. Contrast that with the situaton
>in tennis or any of the varieties of football. Thus fencing
>cannot expect to draw large crowds. Hence it is not likely
>to receive substantial publicity.
[Snip]
>
>d.A.
>
The British public had much the same problem with American Football until
Channel 4 had a series that explained what on Earth was going on. Week
after week they went over the oddities of the sport and now it has a
regular late night audience. They did the same promotion for Sumo,
expalining the sport and giving slow motion replays and that was quite
successful too.
Epee is very straight forward and, given the same treatment, could be
brought to a wider audience. We could then wean them on to the more
(visually) challenging Foil and Sabre. I don't expect to see crowds of
people turning up to watch us fence though, and would rather they turned
up at clubs and got involved anyway.
Cheers
Kevin Phillips - Corsair Sword Club
Kevin Phillips
So we need to have experienced commentators making technical comments and
adding "colour" comments while the audience watch the slow motion action
replay. I agree that people get bored with things they feel excluded
from. I don't imagine that Fencing will ever be a major spectator sport,
but I'm sure we could improve media coverage of Fencing and IMHO that
would help the sport.
Mary Ellen Curtin
>
>In article <300000944...@psilink.com>,
>Mary Ellen Curtin <p01...@psilink.com> wrote:
>>before I took up fencing have made it impossible for me to yell like that
>>without "focusing," and concomitantly locking all my muscles; not a
>>good idea in fencing.
>
>so, I did Shotokan myself, and it was definitely bad in Shotokan. The
>kiai was to focus, but you never locked).
Physical focus in TKD _requires_ a momentary locking of the muscles.
Emphasis is on making the moment of focus as short as possible, and
releasing the muscles immediately afterward. Of course, having the
muscles locked for any substantial period is a Bad Thing. Is this
really different in Shotokan?
Alberto Melis
to catch and notice the nuance? Perhaps the learning curve needed
to appreciate the sport/art is too steep....
Alberto
Eric H Anderson
>Alberto
Somehow I don't think so. I was at the Hawkeye open this weekend and
talked with some spectators durring the foil DEs and the gold medal bout
of Mixed Epee. In both cases they were kids (6-12 I would guess) and a
parent. The kids seemed much more interested, and very quickly grasped
the basics that I explained to them. They also followed the action very
carefully. The girl of about 8 or 9 (I would guess) watching the Epee
figured out which lights were for which fencer even though we couldn't
hear the referee just by watching who hit. And she would check with me
after some of the touches - "he just got hit on the hand didn't he?" or
she would notice that the point hit the leading shoulder and then the
body. These were very fast moves, and *I* find hand touches hard to see
a lot of the time. I think all it really takes is some interest.
As a side note, for any of you who are interested in trying to do some
outreach at a meet (and a nod to Sara Baker, who tought me a lot of
this), talk to the kids first - then the parents wont feel awkward
askign questions, and the kids will make them stay to watch a bit
longer. I usually show them how to hold my foil, and let them hold it
and poke me a few times. The key rule here is that I never let go of
the tip, so they can't go swing it around and poke and eye out.
Invariably they want to know if it hurts, so I unfasten part of my
jacket, fold it out, and let them put their hand behind the folded out
part and have a friend poke it with the foil. And if they seem
interested enough I try to send them to soemone from the local club to
get information about instruction times, and so on. A couple of times I
have been called away from explaining things to a bout, and when they
realize the guy who was just letting them poke him is about to fight,
they HAVE to stay and watch, and I have my own little cheering section
for that bout (it may nto help, but it feels good anyway).
I know a lot of us are busy concentrating on what we are doing, and our
next bout and so on, but if you can, things like this are one of the
best ways I know of to get the word out and interest and educate the
casual spectator.
Eric
--
------------------------------ Eric H. Anderson -------------------------------
GRI...@IASTATE.EDU | Mole. Bio. rm 2192 | I sincerely hope that all
Lab 2192 MBB, 294-0337 | Iowa State Univ. | my opinions are my own,
Office 232 Sci. II 4-8501 | Ames, IA 50011 | and not theirs.
Alberto Melis
Your point about the kids is noted and well made. I have often
missed action that the kids around me have followed with little
trouble. It is us old f***s that are in trouble.
I like your concept of outreach and approach to it, it is much more
efficient than what I have done, so I'll have to try it.
Dick King
The distances, time scales and subtlety is similar to those of table tennis.
How does _that_ do?
-dk
Desiree Michele Fulford
: I had a friend who came out to a few tournaments to watch, in spite of
: having no fencing experience whatsoever. After a single tournament she
: understood the fundamentals of scoring and phrasing, and after about
: three she had a fairly sophisticated spectator's grasp of the sport, and
: could read the phrase, distinguish the nicer touches, spot the better
: fencers without the benefit of first knowing the score, and even question
: the referee's calls.
If this is right, she must be heads & tail above all of the novice
fencers at the club, most of whom took more than three months to get to
this level. Most of them still look bewildered when asked to call the
phrase of a foil bout. Not all, just most.
Ed Mou.
Morgan Burke
Spectating at a single middle-level fencing tournament should give you
the opportunity to study 20-50 quality bouts between competent fencers.
Three tournaments could expose you to upwards of 100 bouts - quality
bouts with clear phrasing, since spectators naturally prefer to watch
the good stuff.
A beginner in a club will be lucky to observe one such bout per practice,
since he/she will be occupied in drills, exercises, and hacking with fellow
novices. Even if presiding is part of the beginner's early training, it
usually involves dissecting the muddy and simplistic phrasing of fellow
beginners. So it could take upwards of a year of practice to get the same
observation experience of spectating at only three tournaments.
I don't think her experience was remarkable at all. Given a basic
knowledge of the rules, and 50+ bouts of quality fencing to observe,
anyone can be a skilled fencing spectator. In fact, I think that you
could become an internationally rated referee much faster than you
could become an internationally rated competitor, given the same
starting point of zero knowledge.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Alberto Melis
Dick-
Good point, yet I have never watched a table tennis tournament. I watched games while
waiting for my turn to get beaten (very much like in fencing...!)
but table tennis doesn't seem to be overly popular here. It certainly is in China...
-Alberto
Andrew Mullhaupt
: she must be heads & tail above all of the novice
: this level. Most of them still look bewildered when asked to call the
: phrase of a foil bout. Not all, just most.
How much dry fencing do you do there? I find that lots of dry fencing is
the fastest and (I think) best way to teach people the rules. As judges,
you give them very simple instructions, but they have to watch carefully.
Then you make sure that every bout has someone pretty experienced and
careful about their reconstructions is in each bout. The more inexperienced
the group, the more you want four judges and referee, and you have the
referee stay the same for many bouts. As more experience is present, you
tend to go for two judges and a referee, and rotate through judging and
presiding and fencing so everyone must preside over at least 1/3 of the time
they are on the jury, as opposed to less that 1/5 of the time with four
judges and less rotation of the president.
We find that this works really well. We usually play "winner stays up (if
they so desire)" so that the inexperienced people have to watch and judge
a lot of bouting and fence against tougher people. We do not point out this
bias to them, because the game might seem less thrilling to them, but in fact
it's very good for them both in terms of fencing and presiding. It is also
very good for some of the experienced fencers to have to suffer the presiding
of the inexperienced fencers gracefully, which is good practice for tournaments.
Another point - paradoxically, it actually is best to get the inexperienced
referees to concentrate on being decisive, and keeping the bout moving. You
get more fencing in that way, and people don't have to stand aound waiting
for two minutes before the referee gives up on trying to reconstruct. The
improvement in understanding of the rules is gradual, and works better with
having to make lots of routine calls than pondering over one or two deep
ones. (Hard cases not only make bad law but bad pedagogy for beginners...)
In fact one of the best things about rec.sport.fencing is that it is way to
discuss the fine points which can otherwise absorb a lot of time, and also
to keep this discussion out ofthe flow of bouting.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Viv
>>
>> In article <3gkho5$1a...@tequesta.gate.net>, Alberto Melis <ame...@gate.net> writes:
>> |> I wondered if the action isn't too fast for most casual observers
>> |> to catch and notice the nuance? Perhaps the learning curve needed
>> |> to appreciate the sport/art is too steep....
>> |>
>> The distances, time scales and subtlety is similar to those of table tennis.
>> How does _that_ do?
>>
>> -dk
Here's a crazy little theory: maybe it's because the USFA (and (in my
experience) the local levels as well) are completely ate-up. By this I mean
I'm sick of getting meet schedules the day before a meet. The most recent case
being for a Div II and III tourny being held some time off, but with today
(6FEB) as a cut off for not having a $165/weapon enterance fee. Having just
gotten the notice for this in the mail today, I don't see much chance at the
$55 on-time fee. If the USFA is serious about making fencing available to the
masses, it needs to make a schedule and get it out in advance to the dates of
the meets. Not all of us can afford to just whip out large enterance fees on
a moments notice, and the penalties make it well out of reach. I'm also upset
that the reminder (and my first notice) about the dues increase came 6 days
after the increase went into effect. I love to fence and hope to continue to
do so for the rest of my life, but incidents such as this make life hard on
everyone and doubtless cost a fair share of beginners.
-Dan Gorman