Which foil grips are available?
louis
Hi!
I've been foil fencing less than a year and having a blast with it.
Only been lurking in rec.sport.fencing for a week.
Have a question on foil grips.
I've been using a Belgian style grip, but am considering moving to
another style for the experience, if nothing else. A French grip
seems to be the next choice, but Nadi's "On Fencing" swears by the
Italian grip. But I don't think I've ever seen anything but pictures
of Italian grips. Do those still exist and does anyone use them? Are
there any grips that are not allowed in competition?
Thanks in advance for your time...
.louis
Keith Earle
louis wrote:
> Hi!
Hi back at you!
> I've been foil fencing less than a year and having a blast with it.
Congratulations.
> Only been lurking in rec.sport.fencing for a week.
You'll probably want to check out the FAQ.
> Have a question on foil grips.
Here we go again...(It's not your fault, Louis!)
> I've been using a Belgian style grip, but am considering moving to
> another style for the experience, if nothing else. A French grip
> seems to be the next choice, but Nadi's "On Fencing" swears by the
> Italian grip.
"Uncle" Aldo was very partial to the Italian grip, which can promote a
very light touch, but can also promote a very rigid grip if you're not
careful---the crossbar (gavigliano) really gives you something to hang
on to which can limit your hand's quickness. That said, I really enjoy
my Italian grip but am constantly working on a lighter, yet sure grip.
I started out with a French grip, but was interested in the
possibilities offered by the Italian grip and so switched fairly early
on.
> But I don't think I've ever seen anything but pictures
> of Italian grips. Do those still exist and does anyone use them?
Many members of the salle I fence in use Italian grips. You can get
them (and the blade) from Santelli or Triplette. As far as I know, it's
very difficult to get a blade that mates with an Italian grip suitable
for electric fencing. We fence dry.
It's possible to buy an Italian epee as well (unwired), but most of the
ones I've seen have a false ricasso, which is something of a drawback,
in my view.
> Are there any grips that are not allowed in competition?
The Spanish grip (available with an offset pommel from Triplette) is of
dubious legality, I'm told, although I've never used one, and have never
seen one used, or attempted to be used, in competition. How's that for
a straightforward answer?
You can get the whole scoop on what the rules say about legal and
illegal grips but not how those rules are interpreted from the USFA web
page.
To summarize an occasionally recurring, always acrimonious thread,
French grips are legal; Italian grips are legal (with or without a wrist
strap), but it's very difficult to get wired blades for them; Spanish
grips with an offset pommel may be legal, but it's probably not wise to
rely on one at a competition.
You will probably find that a French grip will be a fascinating change
from the Belgian: don't be discouraged if it feels awkward at first. If
you want to try an Italian grip, go for it, just don't expect to find a
wired blade for it easily.
> Thanks in advance for your time...
My pleasure.
Keith
--
Keith Earle, Ph.D., research associate, Cornell University
Baker Laboratory of Chemistry, box 186, Ithaca, NY 14853-1301
phone: 607 255 4632, fax: 607 255 0595, e-mail: ea...@msc.cornell.edu
louis
Hi Keith.
Thanks for your quick response.
>
> > Only been lurking in rec.sport.fencing for a week.
>
> You'll probably want to check out the FAQ.
A FAQ for fencing! I should have known. Found it at rtfm.mit.edu.
Thanks for the tip.
> > Have a question on foil grips.
>
> Here we go again...(It's not your fault, Louis!)
(snip)
>
> > But I don't think I've ever seen anything but pictures
> > of Italian grips. Do those still exist and does anyone use them?
>
> Many members of the salle I fence in use Italian grips. You can get
> them (and the blade) from Santelli or Triplette. As far as I know, it's
> very difficult to get a blade that mates with an Italian grip suitable
> for electric fencing. We fence dry.
Good to know, thanks. The FAQ answers many questions, but it's nice
to
hear the voice of first hand experience.
(snip)
> > Are there any grips that are not allowed in competition?
>
> The Spanish grip (available with an offset pommel from Triplette) is of
> dubious legality, I'm told, although I've never used one, and have never
> seen one used, or attempted to be used, in competition. How's that for
> a straightforward answer?
Excellent, Doctor. :) Here's what the FAQ says:
"The Spanish grip is a compromise between the French and Italian
grips,
but is illegal in modern fencing competition, due to a technicality
that
forbids grips with orthopaedic aids from being grasped in more than
one
manner. There are modern variants of the Spanish grip that do not use
the French pommel, and these may be legal in competition if they fix a
single hand position."
Thanks for your help, Keith.
.louis
BlakIC
Yes, Italian grips are still around, but it's more expensive to have one made,
especially an electric foil (Santelli charges $89). It's a shame that they
seem to have disappeared from use in epee. On a side note, does anyone know if
anybody will make an electric epee with an Italian grip? I've called around,
but there doesn't seem to be anywhere that will.
John Trojanowski
Louis,
Yes, you certainly CAN find people who use Italian grips. I enjoy both
French and Italian grips on my dry foils. You can find Italian grip foils
and epees at Santelli. I also believe Triplett carries an Italian foil.
Enjoy,
jo...@trojanowski.com
Bryan J. Maloney
> "Uncle" Aldo was very partial to the Italian grip, which can promote a
> very light touch, but can also promote a very rigid grip if you're not
> careful---the crossbar (gavigliano) really gives you something to hang
> on to which can limit your hand's quickness. That said, I really enjoy
Or facilitate it. That's the tricky part about the Italian.
> from the Belgian: don't be discouraged if it feels awkward at first. If
> you want to try an Italian grip, go for it, just don't expect to find a
> wired blade for it easily.
Indeed, the only wired Italian grips I've seen were custom-built.
brian hiles
: louis (louis_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
To interject what comments that are as of today unspoken....
The Spanish Modern grip is _not_, repeat _not_ illegal. I am apprised
of the contraversy (sp?) but as I have fenced with the this grip
for 15 years, I have had ample incentive to determine that _real_
facts of the matter, and the opinion of Mr. George Edward
Kolombatovich, the USFA chair head, I deem binding enough for me.
This does not obviate the potential dweeb armourer at a tournament
giving you grief on this matter, however.
The Gardere grip is the only one that no one does not contend is illegal.
: I've been using a Belgian style grip, but am considering moving to
I'm surprised that it has not been mentioned that transitioning to
a Belgian grip (which IMNSHO is the worst pistol grip design there
is in that it forces retrorse flexion of the wrist--the same cause
of carpal tunnel syndrome among typists) after only a year of
fencing is problematic at best. I have been teaching fencing for
a decade, and although it is definitely flame bait, I will say that
the ratio of times I have witnessed a too-soon adoption of any
pistol grip becoming a detriment to ones fencing style is 100%.
I too used to fence (informally--never in competition) with the
Italian grip, and as I too have sentimental attachment to it, be
prepared for a world of frustration: it is my understanding from
talking to many vendors both in America and oversees that the
availability of Italian grip, blades (not the ones needing false
ricassoes), etc, is by the current stock of equipment held in
warehouses. And it's not going to get any easier to find new supplies
in the years to come you theoretically spend getting used to this
grip.
-Brian
Dirk Goldgar
brian hiles wrote in message <6nrspq$cl5$1...@supernews.com>...
[snip]
>I'm surprised that it has not been mentioned that transitioning to
>a Belgian grip (which IMNSHO is the worst pistol grip design there
>is in that it forces retrorse flexion of the wrist--the same cause
>of carpal tunnel syndrome among typists) after only a year of
>fencing is problematic at best. I have been teaching fencing for
>a decade, and although it is definitely flame bait, I will say that
>the ratio of times I have witnessed a too-soon adoption of any
>pistol grip becoming a detriment to ones fencing style is 100%.
Although I agree with your point about not adopting a pistol grip too soon,
I must take issue with your condemnation of the Belgian grip. To date, I
have found only two types of pistol grip I can even use -- the Belgian and
the Russian. For some reason the Visconti, while very popular among my
acquaintance, gives me a major blister at the base of my thumb, on top where
the upper prong rubs. That prong is just wrongly positioned for my hand
and, though others don't have a problem with it, it "rubs me the wrong way."
Other handles, like the Zivkovic, seem to encourage me to fence with my
wrist rather than my fingers. I do like the Russian handle, use it for
epee, and may switch my foils to it sometime soon. However, I haven't
noticed any tendency of the Belgian to do me harm. What do you mean,
"forces retrorse flexion of the wrist"? If the grip is in fact harmful, I'd
like to know it!
Dirk Goldgar
Chuck Allen
>
> The Spanish Modern grip is _not_, repeat _not_ illegal.
>
> giving you grief on this matter, however.
>
> The Gardere grip is the only one that no one does not contend is illegal.
>
> a Belgian grip (which IMNSHO is the worst pistol grip design there
> is in that it forces retrorse flexion of the wrist--the same cause
> of carpal tunnel syndrome among typists) after only a year of
> fencing is problematic at best.
1) The Dos Santos as WELL as the Guardere are BOTH listed
specifically as being illegal, therefore the Guardere is NOT the only
grip for which there is no contention of its legality. There are several
others which are DEFIANTLY illegal also, like the Spanish (not followed
by any modifying word) which I've only seen pictures of.
2) The Spanish Modern grip IS DEFIANTLY illegal. (It has a French
style pommel, with the thumb and second finger prongs similar to the
Belgian). You used to be able to get the Spanish Modern grip from
American Fencer's, but they no longer carry them, and Triplette never
has carried the Spanish Modern grip.
3) Triplette, amoung others, sells the Spanish OFFSET, often known
as the Cetrulo, which I have seen called both ways by very high up
people indeed. IF you fence competitively, avoid it so you don't get it
called illegal when you get to the final 8 at the JO's (Which I saw
happen a few years back) or something. This grip is in a class by
itself, as there seems to be no CONSISTENT determination at ANY level of
it's legality. This lack of consistency goes all the way up to the FIE
SEMI commission people. Use in competition at your own risk. (If you
DON'T fence competitively, you have no worry anyway - use what you
like!)
4) I've been using a Belgian since '89, as a result of coming back
into fencing at that time to find my favorite grip (the Spanish Modern)
had been made illegal during the time I was out, and the Belgian was
closest to it. (I will admit however, to making some slight
modifications! <g>)
The rule is "fixes the hand in one position"
Guidelines for those wanting to experiment:
1) The standard French and Italian grips are and have always been
legal.
2) Most Pistol grips (Orthopedic without French Style pommel) are
legal.
3) The Spanish Offset was specially designed to appeal to those
who like to argue about the legality of a particular grip -
and you never know which side will win!
4) Most Orthopedic grips with a French style pommel are illegal.
Chuck Allen
USFA National Armorer
Frank Pratt
<di...@NOSPAMagcsys.com> wrote:
> Although I agree with your point about not adopting a pistol grip too soon,
> I must take issue with your condemnation of the Belgian grip. To date, I
> have found only two types of pistol grip I can even use -- the Belgian and
> the Russian. For some reason the Visconti, while very popular among my
> acquaintance, gives me a major blister at the base of my thumb, on top where
> the upper prong rubs. That prong is just wrongly positioned for my hand
> and, though others don't have a problem with it, it "rubs me the wrong way."
>
> Other handles, like the Zivkovic, seem to encourage me to fence with my
> wrist rather than my fingers. I do like the Russian handle, use it for
> epee, and may switch my foils to it sometime soon. However, I haven't
> noticed any tendency of the Belgian to do me harm. What do you mean,
> "forces retrorse flexion of the wrist"? If the grip is in fact harmful, I'd
> like to know it!
>
> Dirk Goldgar
I use Ulhmann's Medium Visconti on my epee. It is the best overall grip
Ihave used. The drwaback of many pistol grips (most of the Zivkovics being
the excelptions) is that the rear-most part digs into a tendon in you
hand. This can cause problems such as carpal tunnel. I have received
blisters as well (on my lower pinky and middle of my middle finger,) from
this grip, but nothing that outweighs the benefits I get from using it.
The German grips are not as bad since this part rests on your wrist rather
than in your palm. It also encourages you to keep your forearm and point
in the same line.
I think the Zivkovic grips are designed for people who like to use their
wrist a lot (i.e. people who like to flick.) It is harder to keep your
blade and forearm in line (this is important in epee,) so I would only
reccomend it to someone who likes to (and can) flick a lot. I only use the
Zivkovic grips in foil.
Remmeber that all the companies that make grips are in busniess because
everyone has different preferences. It is not "wrong" to use a freach
grip, postol grip, etc. If you like the grip and comforms to the rules,
then use it.
---------------------------------
Frank G. Pratt, III
fpr...@fencing.net
david arias
ineffective and at the most likely to cause permanent injury. i wanted
to make to points:
if you are getting blisters or experiencing pain when using a belgian
grip (either for the first time or over some period of time) then you
have VERY likely been gripping it too tightly. i experienced some pain
in my forearm when switching from french grip foil to belgian grip epee
and simply made a conscious effort to hold the grip more gently.
if you the grip is pressing on your hand in an uncomfortable way, you
are either (again) holding it too tight or you purchased the wrong size
belgian grip.
so lighten up (pun intended) and get a grip (another pun). remember
that gripping too tightly can fatigue other muscles as well. also slows
you down, etc. etc.
david arias
(personal opinion only)
Rory Gibson
finger) from a grip, its pretty easy just to take a metal file and
wear down the ridge on the grip thats causing you problems.
Another possibility is to bind the grip with string to reshape it, and
then put insulating tape over the top of that to seal it over.
Rory Gibson
------------------------------------------------
Why does the sun come up, or are the stars just
pinholes in the curtain of night?
Olaf Ziebell
Italian foils (I presume including a grip).
you may look at: http://home.t-online.de/home/allstar1/ple3.htm#Start
The main drawback: They do not sell maragin blades for italian foils, so you
might get into trouble on a tournament.
In article <bjm10-06079...@potato.cit.cornell.edu>,
Dirk Goldgar
>
>I use Ulhmann's Medium Visconti on my epee. It is the best overall grip
>Ihave used. The drwaback of many pistol grips (most of the Zivkovics being
>the excelptions) is that the rear-most part digs into a tendon in you
>hand. This can cause problems such as carpal tunnel. I have received
>blisters as well (on my lower pinky and middle of my middle finger,) from
>this grip, but nothing that outweighs the benefits I get from using it.
>The German grips are not as bad since this part rests on your wrist rather
>than in your palm. It also encourages you to keep your forearm and point
>in the same line.
The problem I have with the Visconti -- at least those I have borrowed on
occasion -- is that I can't fence with it for even 15 minutes without
developing a severe friction burn or blister on the upper part of my thumb's
base knuckle. I don't understand how everyone else can use it!
Dirk Goldgar
Eric Dew
>
>The problem I have with the Visconti -- at least those I have borrowed on
>occasion -- is that I can't fence with it for even 15 minutes without
>developing a severe friction burn or blister on the upper part of my thumb's
>base knuckle. I don't understand how everyone else can use it!
>
>Dirk Goldgar
>
>
It's called building up a callous.
EDEW
Doug White
was hitting the 'spur' that sticks down on the Belgian grip. A little
work with a hand grinder & some paded tape, and all is well again.
I tried a Zivkovic grip, which felt fine just handling it by itself. One
bout & I had a nasty blister. I ground off a LOT of metal, but never
could get it to feel right. On problem is that the stub that sticks up
for the thumb to go around is too close to the centerline. The same spur
on the Belgium is offset so the thumb can line up with the top of the
grip.
Doug White
Keywords:
Kelly Ringwald
about 9 years ago. Unfortunately I don't like any of the Belgians you
can find today, and they don't make mine anymore. The ones you see
today are either too small, angled funny, or too boxy. Oh well.
I get blisters because I keep my blade in motion constantly with my
fingers. A simple solution is a swath of athletic tape on the finger.
K
Dirk Goldgar
Doug White wrote in message <6o0rm8$4...@news-central.tiac.net>...
>I tried a Zivkovic grip, which felt fine just handling it by itself. One
>bout & I had a nasty blister. I ground off a LOT of metal, but never
>could get it to feel right. On problem is that the stub that sticks up
>for the thumb to go around is too close to the centerline. The same spur
>on the Belgium is offset so the thumb can line up with the top of the
>grip.
That's the problem I have with the Visconti, and why I use the Belgian.
Dirk Goldgar
Dirk Goldgar
Eric Dew wrote in message ...
>In article <35a37...@news.nerc.com> "Dirk Goldgar"
<di...@NOSPAMagcsys.com> writes:
>>
>>The problem I have with the Visconti -- at least those I have borrowed on
>>occasion -- is that I can't fence with it for even 15 minutes without
>>developing a severe friction burn or blister on the upper part of my
thumb's
>>base knuckle. I don't understand how everyone else can use it!
>
It's not just a matter of calluses, Eric; the top prong is positioned in
such a way that it actually feels like it's interfering with my control of
the blade.
Dirk
Douglas M. Jole
> >than in your palm. It also encourages you to keep your forearm and point
> >in the same line.
I knew there was a reason that I preferred the German grip to the
Belgians! Now that it's explained to me, I slap myself in the head and
say "duh..." I like the flat feel of the German grip rather than the
"holding a ball" kind of sensation I got from the Belgian. I've never
seen anybody else use the German grips, though. I figured somebody else
had to use them, too!
____________________
/ Douglas Jole \
| Folklore Dept | What we don't need is a fountain of youth;
| Memorial University | what we really need is a fountain of smart.
| Of Newfoundland |
| | Thig crioch air an t-saoghal,
\_____________________/ Ach mairidh ceol agus gaol.
* Stonecircle Homepage-- http://www.moon-stone.com/stonecircle/
David W Neevel
>
>
> The problem I have with the Visconti -- at least those I have borrowed on
> occasion -- is that I can't fence with it for even 15 minutes without
> developing a severe friction burn or blister on the upper part of my thumb's
> base knuckle. I don't understand how everyone else can use it!
>
Our hands are proportioned a little differently than yours :-). A grip
that feels comfortable to one person will often feel awful to another
because one person's hand may be wider/narrower with shorter/longer
fingers. I use the Uhlmann V3 (large) visconti, but there are a
number of flavors of visconti out there which I don't find comfortable
because they don't leave enough space behind the guard for my longish
fingers, even though the butt of the grip is sized properly for my
palm.
-Dave N.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Neevel | Don't worry. I think I've got some duct tape
dne...@csd.uwm.edu | around here somewhere...
| Red Green
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Dew
>From article <35a37...@news.nerc.com>, by "Dirk Goldgar" <di...@NOSPAMagcsys.com>:
>>
>>
>> The problem I have with the Visconti -- at least those I have borrowed on
>> occasion -- is that I can't fence with it for even 15 minutes without
>> developing a severe friction burn or blister on the upper part of my thumb's
>> base knuckle. I don't understand how everyone else can use it!
>>
>
>Our hands are proportioned a little differently than yours :-). A grip
Yeah, we have opposable thumbs. :-)
EDEW
Dirk Goldgar
Eric Dew wrote in message ...
Where can I get one of those?
Dirk Goldgar
Bryan J. Maloney
<di...@NOSPAMagcsys.com> wrote:
> Where can I get one of those?
First, you must undergo a strict examination to make sure you have no
traces of sabreurity lurking in your ancestors for the past six
generations...
Frank Pratt
<di...@NOSPAMagcsys.com> wrote:
> Where can I get one of those?
I got an Ulhmann Viscontii from Blade Fencing. I think they have three
different sizes (small, medium large.) I have the medium and like it
better tha nany grip I have ever tried.
-FGP
brian hiles
: Although I agree with your point about not adopting a pistol grip too soon,
: I must take issue with your condemnation of the Belgian grip. To date, I
: have found only two types of pistol grip I can even use -- the Belgian and
: the Russian. For some reason the Visconti, while very popular among my
: acquaintance, gives me a major blister at the base of my thumb, on top where
: the upper prong rubs. That prong is just wrongly positioned for my hand
: and, though others don't have a problem with it, it "rubs me the wrong way."
: Other handles, like the Zivkovic, seem to encourage me to fence with my
: wrist rather than my fingers. I do like the Russian handle, use it for
: epee, and may switch my foils to it sometime soon. However, I haven't
: noticed any tendency of the Belgian to do me harm. What do you mean,
: "forces retrorse flexion of the wrist"? If the grip is in fact harmful, I'd
: like to know it!
I knew I would pick some person's "bone of contention" with the
afromentioned assertion! Thank you for the unnecessarily kind way
you have chosen to respond!
I basically agree with everything you relate based upon the personal
experience with orthopaedic grips; I made an abortive attempt to
switch from the Spanish Modern to another grip which legality is
not contended. I too tried the Belgian first (it seems that everyone
does...) then the Visconti (this too seems to be quite a popular
second choice...) considered the Russian (gave up on this idea
because of a warning from another repondant to rsf of its ultimate
inadequacy.) I took one look at the Zivkovic grips and thought: no
way! I finally went to the only grip I feel that does not promote
backward (retrorse) flexion (fore-aft movement of the wrist).
Such bending of the wrist not only is in its weakest plane but also
is the RSI (Repetitive Stress Injury) syndrome most commonly known as
CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.) Such an injury occurs when the wrist tendons
inpinge and irritate the nerves to the hand located there-underneath.
I have some experience with body dynamics and athletic therapy; these are
simply the terms which are used in this corner of the universe.
Please do not infer that you will _get_ CTS if you use a Belgian!
By no means do I wish to give this impression--unless you are
planning to type five hours a day with two Belgian grips in your
hands ;) I simply do not need such distractions upon my game as what
syndrome I perceive is applicable as per my knowledge of RSIs!
Did I say in my original post that the German grip is the only one I
found tolerable? Even as such, I had to inlet the upper quillon ("spur")
and bevel the extremity of the lower quillon for my smaller than usual
hand, which I like to fence without a glove.
-Brian
Chuck Allen
>
> I got an Ulhmann Viscontii from Blade Fencing. I think they have three
> different sizes (small, medium large.) I have the medium and like it
> better tha nany grip I have ever tried.
>
the grip commonly known as the "German" is actually the German Visconti
- for those who like to know such things) comes in FIVE sizes! extra
small (XS),small (S), medium (M), large (L), and extra large (XL). I
frequent5ly come across people with large hands who can ONLY use the XL
Visconti.
Chuck Allen
LePheaux
My presonal opinion about blister's, is soft hands and blisters, can be
cured with getting some callouses, toughening up finger streangth at the
same time. soft, and steel, just dont go together. plus youll never let your
hands get soft again, when
you see the improvements!!!!
dont take it personaly just foiling around
LePheaux
Parry