Successful Ambidextrous Fencers?
Seth Gehauf
Just noodling at 3 a.m. and was curious....
I've never seen anything discussed about successful ambidextrous
fencers. I'd call successful getting a "C" rating with both hands (I
know a rating is already for both, but I mean to win 2 tournies, one
with each hand).
I know of a few people that have injured their main weapons hand/arm and
had to switch for a while but I've never heard of anyone purposely
training for both hands....
Anybody out there doing it? Why? Does it maybe give you an advantage
against someone you know is weak fencing the opposite hand? Can't say as
I've read the rules all the way thru, is it even legal to fence both
hands in a tournie (I'm sure you can't switch mid-bout)?
Am I just loopy at this hour? or should I start training for lefty?
Anybody respond.....
-----
Seth Gehauf, VCU Fencing
geh...@tma.tmava.sprint.com
gary hayenga
Seth Gehauf <geh...@tma.tmava.sprint.com> wrote:
>Am I just loopy at this hour? or should I start training for lefty?
>Anybody respond.....
loopy.
gary hayenga
philo von mtein
In article <32913C...@tma.tmava.sprint.com>,
Seth Gehauf <geh...@tma.tmava.sprint.com> wrote:
[...]
>I've never seen anything discussed about successful ambidextrous
>fencers. I'd call successful getting a "C" rating with both hands (I
>know a rating is already for both, but I mean to win 2 tournies, one
>with each hand).
My old coach at MIT used to fence equally well with both hands. He had
hurt his right arm at one point, and switched over, and found that he
could do the same things with both hands. I am not sure what his rating
was (although I know that when he was young, he did quite well.)
Apparently, the rule is that you can switch hands only once during a
competition, so you can't go back and forth. However, this still gives
you two advantages:
1- when one hands/arm gets tired, you can simply switch to the other
one, which can be quite a big advantage as you get to the final rounds.
2- other fencers who are expecting to fence a righty and have been
watching your fencing all day, find themselves suddenly against a leftie
and are disoriented enough to lose the bout.
Add to that the inherent differences between right handed and left
handed fencers, and you can see that it can be somewhat of an advantage.
>Seth Gehauf, VCU Fencing
>geh...@tma.tmava.sprint.com
-philo.
--
L'Autre: Je donne ma folie. (il la drape d'une etole rouge). Oui son
eclat te va. Regarde bien Victoire, tu me ressembles un peu... non, ne
t'en vas pas. (nadia tueni, piece en plusieurs poemes et plusieurs titres)
sda...@aol.com
I wouldn't call myself successful with either hand at this point (I'm
still unrated) but I have been considering training with both hands. Two
years ago I injured my right hand during a sectional, qualified leftie a
month later (actually my best result to date was at that qualifier) but
then fenced Nationals rightie. Quite frankly, I should have stuck to the
left.
I have found a couple of fencers who go totally brain-dead when they see a
leftie on the strip. I am also convinced that training my left hand had a
very positive effect mentally. During that time I found I was far more
alert and had an easier time grasping concepts. Whether it was firing up
a different part of the brain or simply the additional effort of
coordinating my left side, I can't really say.
Since I have been considering this I have been studying the rules and it
seems to me that you can switch during a tournament but you may only
change during a bout if you are injured and the director approves the
change.
Since I am a sabre fencer, fencing both sides brings up equipment issues.
If you want to be able to change hands easily between bouts you will have
to wear two plastrons . Also I believe you need a back zip lame since
front-closure lames close right or left depending upon the sword arm. Add
to that carrying two sets of swords, gloves and overgloves. Then you have
to label the back of your lame since the rules specify that the back leg
be lettered if you choose to label your knickers.
Suzanne Danet
sda...@aol.com
Milton H. BANK, II PhD
philo von mtein wrote:
> ...Apparently, the rule is that you can switch hands only once during a
> competition, so you can't go back and forth...
But earlier in these pages George K. suggested (correctly, as always)
that we really ought to be quite precise when we speak of rules; i.e.,
"Apparently..." shouldn't be good enough. Hey, the Rules are now on the
Web, immediately available to anyone reading r.s.f.! Why don't we all
simply reference the rules, so that we all get practice in (1) looking up
things in the rules, and (2) quoting them accurately.
The Rule of which you're speaking is Rule 30, paragraph 4, found on page
17, right-hand column near the top of the page. That paragraph reads,
"The weapon must be used with one hand only; a fencer may not change
hands until the end of the bout unless the refereee gives special
permission because the hand or arm is injured."
So -- there is no restriction on how many times you may switch hands
during a bout (nor during a competition); that depends on how many times
the referee gives you permission to change _because you have injured the
hand you are currently using_. I could imagine a Monty Python bout in
which a fencer switched back and forth several times as various parts
were severed from his body...
That's a quibble -- now to add to the discussion: My ancient experience
is that if you think right or left hand matters much to an experienced
fencer, you're kidding yourself. At first, yes. Then you find that you
don't even realize what hand your opponent is using until that is brought
to your attention by some tactical circumstance.
Mt. Raoul Sudre used to suggest to his fencers that, when they were
hooking up, they look down the strip at their opponent and take note of
the hand on which he was wearing his glove. "He probably intends to
fence with that hand -- it's a useful thing to know!" Sudre would say...
There's no doubt it's useful to know, but no more (or less!) than tall
vs. short, hard hand vs. supple, fast vs. slow, etc. The more you know
about your opponent, the better!
Milt.
Morgan Burke
In article <32913C...@tma.tmava.sprint.com> Seth Gehauf <geh...@tma.tmava.sprint.com> writes:
[on ambidextrous fencing]
>Anybody out there doing it? Why? Does it maybe give you an advantage
>against someone you know is weak fencing the opposite hand? Can't say as
>I've read the rules all the way thru, is it even legal to fence both
>hands in a tournie (I'm sure you can't switch mid-bout)?
All the ambidextrous fencers I know of (including myself) fence a
given event exclusively with one hand. They only switch hands when
switching to a different weapon. Although you might be able to
bamboozle the occasional mediocre fencer by switching to your left
hand in a weapon that you normally fence right, it wouldn't be a
useful strategy in the long term, since quality fencers aren't so easy
to fool.
Devoting a weapon to each hand, however, makes a little more sense,
since it can help to keep the tactics and techniques separated in your
head, avoiding those embarassing little moments when you make a
stop-cut to the wrist with your foil, or some such thing. Sometimes
weapons get along quite happily in the same hand, however, so your
mileage may vary. Consider it only if you are truly ambidextrous,
plan to compete regularly in both weapons, and have deep enough
pockets to afford the extra equipment costs.
Myself, I fence foil with my left hand, and epee and sabre with my
right. I did not choose to become an ambidextrous fencer on purpose,
but rather because I am naturally somewhat ambidextrous and some years
after I started fencing, I realized that I had made the wrong hand
choice at the start. So I switched over to my left hand for my
primary weapon (foil), and decided to keep using my right for epee and
sabre simply because I didn't want to let all that training go to
waste.
I have never switched hands in a tournament, in spite of all the
Princess Bride jokes that fly around when people discover that I
could. In fact, I'm not sure if I've ever fenced foil right-handed
since the day I decided to switch. However, I do maintain
right-handed epees, have gloves for both hands, and own a goddamn
fortune in FIE 800N jackets (one right, one left, one ambi back-zip).
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
cyn...@aol.com
Milt writes:
>Then you find that you
>don't even realize what hand your opponent is using until that is brought
>to your attention by some tactical circumstance.
Oh, what kind of tactical circumstance? Like for instance how to avoid
his/her first attack, or how to make your first attack? Right or left
handed makes a difference from the very first phrase.
>Mt. Raoul Sudre used to suggest to his fencers that, when they were
>hooking up, they look down the strip at their opponent and take note of
>the hand on which he was wearing his glove. "He probably intends to
>fence with that hand -- it's a useful thing to know!" Sudre would say..
Raoul was apparently master of the obvious, not letting those things we
don't even think to mention pass his keen eye.
Seriously though, if right or left handed didnt' make a difference, we
would have the same percentage of top level lefties as we do beginner
lefties, and this simply isn't true. There are a disproportionate number
of left handed world champions compared to the general population. The
reason is that the tactics are different from the first command of "fence"
to the last "halt", and fewer lefties means less practice against them for
the rest of us (including the left handers, who are just as used to
fencing right-handed opponents as right-handers are).
It's also a good idea to see which hand your opponent plans to use because
it can affect which side of the strip you hook up on. :)
/cynic
Mordechai T. Abzug
In article <329331...@nps.navy.mil>,
"MHB"=="Milton H. BANK, II PhD" <MB...@nps.navy.mil> spake thusly:
MHB> Mt. Raoul Sudre used to suggest to his fencers that, when they were
MHB> hooking up, they look down the strip at their opponent and take note of
MHB> the hand on which he was wearing his glove. "He probably intends to
MHB> fence with that hand -- it's a useful thing to know!" Sudre would say...
Won't work against those of us who fence with two gloves. . . ;>
--
Mordechai T. Abzug
http://umbc.edu/~mabzug1 mab...@umbc.edu finger -l mab...@gl.umbc.edu
>>>>> My employer ain't payin' for my opinions, so they must be *mine*. <<<<<
"Keyboard? How quaint!" - Scotty
Jon Sloman
cyn...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Milt writes:
> >Then you find that you don't even realize what hand your opponent
> > is using until that is brought to your attention by some tactical
> > circumstance.
> Oh, what kind of tactical circumstance? Like for instance how to
> avoid his/her first attack, or how to make your first attack?
> Right or left handed makes a difference from the very first phrase.
Yes, of course, but do you really _notice_ ? After a while, you just
adjust, without ever thinking about it. I not infrequently finish
a bout, and realise while shaking hands that my opponent's left
handed (I am, too). When I first started, it was a case of 'oh, sod
it, another left hander', but now, who cares ? I don't keep count,
but I suspect I do slightly better against left handers.
[snip]
> Seriously though, if right or left handed didn't make a
> difference, we would have the same percentage of top level lefties
> as we do beginner lefties, and this simply isn't true. There are a
> disproportionate number of left handed world champions compared to
> the general population. The reason is that the tactics are different
> from the first command of "fence" to the last "halt", and fewer
> lefties means less practice against them for
> the rest of us (including the left handers, who are just as used to
> fencing right-handed opponents as right-handers are).
This is one reason for the high proportion, sure, but I think it's
exaggerated. There are plenty of left-handers to practice on at a
more modest level than world championship events - Open competitions
here in the UK are stuffed with them, frex - and at the club where I
fence, it can be 50% some nights. Practice often, and it doesn't
matter which hand your opponent uses.
A related angle - and maybe a better explanation - is how many
coaches are left handed, or can give realistic left-handed lessons ?
I'm lucky here, as I've always had lessons from both left and right
handers.
There has to be some other reason to explain the success of the left
handers, and there's been data published recently about right/left
brain functionality and the relationship to the dominant hand which
makes some physiological factor much more likely - IMHO, of course.
Jon
--
'For Iron, Cold Iron, is master of men all' - Kipling
Rick Williams
Jon Sloman <jo...@silverplatter.com> wrote:
>There has to be some other reason to explain the success of the left
>handers, and there's been data published recently about right/left
>brain functionality and the relationship to the dominant hand which
>makes some physiological factor much more likely - IMHO, of course.
One possible factor and I don't know if it's been formally looked into
is also eye dominance.
I'm left handed and also left eye dominant which basicly means that my
dominant eye is almost always closer to the opponent. I know in
baseball batting this is a distinct advantage and I would imagine it
is also an advantage in fencing.
As far as tactics, the major thing that I see is the frequency of
attacks to particular lines based on which hand the opponent uses and
the skill the fencer has developed in attacking those lines as well as
the ability of the other fencer to defend those particular lines.
When I was actively competative fencer, I kept a notebook on all my
opponents and the results. If memory serves me I was fairly even
faceing either hand although I did have to work harder when facing
left handers.
Best
RW
Milton H. BANK, II PhD
Mordechai T. Abzug wrote:
>
> Won't work against those of us who fence with two gloves. . . ;>
>
Mordechai, you clever devil, you have proven once again the old fencing adage
that there is a defense for every action your opponent may make...!!
Milt.
Milton H. BANK, II PhD
cyn...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Raoul was apparently master of the obvious, not letting those things we
> don't even think to mention pass his keen eye.
>
In that you have surely stated the truth! I would imagine that some of his
students at Cornell and the American Fencing Academy (which Gillet took
over) could tell Sudre stories for quite a while!
> Seriously though, if right or left handed didnt' make a difference, we
> would have the same percentage of top level lefties as we do beginner
> lefties, and this simply isn't true.
As a left-hander, I will have to take issue with you here. I know that
that is the explanation (excuse?) which has been given by right-handed
fencers from time immemorial, but it just isn't so. The real reason is that
left-handers are inherently superior to right-handers in _every_ way. If you
doubt me, just ask us: we'll tell you!
To return the discussion to a serious vein, yes, there is that to it.
Certainly "the blind leading the blind" often causes less confusion than two
left-handed fencers attempting to approximate a bout. However, I feel that
if the beginning fencer remembers that his intention should be to prepare and
feint so as to cause his opponent to make an error, and then hit him, that
fencer will have more success than the fencer who attempts to "feint outside
and inside and then go around and hit."
The former philosophy doesn't require that you know which hand your opponent
is using -- the latter means that the leftie is a major obstacle, to be
practiced for specifically. Does that make any sense?
Certainly it is necessary to know the strengths and weaknesses of
opposite-handed fencers as well as same-handers, and it is good to have some
planned actions to smooth the feeling-out process at the beginning of a bout.
However, I do suggest that, at least sometimes, too much is made of
opposite-hand difficulties...
> It's also a good idea to see which hand your opponent plans to use because
> it can affect which side of the strip you hook up on. :)
> Hey, what can I say except "I'm sorry! You were right all along!" If you
don't do that one correctly you're going to be embarrassed for sure!
Milt
Tiffany Family
> Just noodling at 3 a.m. and was curious....
>
> I've never seen anything discussed about successful ambidextrous
> fencers. I'd call successful getting a "C" rating with both hands (I
> know a rating is already for both, but I mean to win 2 tournies, one
> with each hand).
snip
Bill Gelnaw (1980 Olympic Team epee) fences with either hand, but I don't
know whether he has switched hands in high-level competition. As far as I
know he prefers the left hand in competition for the usual tactical
reasons. I'll bet he could get a C with each hand in all three weapons if
he felt like it.
Michael Tiffany