Prime, Seconde, Tierce, Quarte, Quint, Sixte, Septime, Octave...
Mortimir
since heard them around here and in other places. I have not yet been able
to understand the concept or the specific location of these points on the
torso. Could someone please explain? I would really like it if someone
could give me a good link with pictures and in depth explanation. Thanks in
advance.
Mortimir
Eric Dew
Nice to see that you are able to count to eight in ancient italian.
EDEW
ben king
>From: "Mortimir" <unknown>
>Reply-To: "rec.spor...@list.deja.com"
><rec.spor...@list.deja.com>
>To: "rec.spor...@list.deja.com" <rec.spor...@list.deja.com>
>Subject: Prime, Seconde, Tierce, Quarte, Quint, Sixte, Septime, Octave...
>Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:51:38 -0400
>
> Message from the Deja.com forum:
> rec.sport.fencing
> Your subscription is set to individual email delivery
They are not point on the target - but rather hand positions in the french
system.
These hand positions are also guard positions and parry positions which are
able to cover or defend areas on your target.
They come in two basic flavours - half with the palm facing down (pronation)
and half with the palm facing up (supination).
Those in supination are sixte (point higher than the guard - protects
outside high line), quarte (point higher than guard - for inside high line);
septime (point lower than guard - and inside low line) and octave (point
lower than guard - for outside low line).
The other four are all pronated and best ignored to start with as they'll
only et you into trouble as they're apt to be executed badly.
Cheers, Ben.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
Good Answer...
In article <199909070900...@hotmail.com>,
"ben king" <chrys...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> They are not point on the target
> - but rather hand positions in the french system.
>
> These hand positions are also guard positions and parry positions
> which are able to cover or defend areas on your target.
One thing I have noted over and over again, is how many people confuse
the concept of Guard Position and Parry.
A Guard position is a position of readiness, from which one can parry -
or rather move to a parry position, almost instantaneously.
It may or may not be the same position as the parry - but it need not
be!
So for example - the standard "en guard" position, with the hand in
sixte, is not necessarily identical to a sixte parry position.
Depending on the teacher (!), I have been taught that sixte guard has
the point somewhat in, facing the opponents face, whereas sixte parry
moves the point out somewhat, pointing more around the opponents
shoulder. (not a massive difference, but split seconds do count!)
Using the guard position as a parry is innefective, the difference in
blade position leaves you open - on the other hand, you are more ready
for any offensive action with the point almost "on target" before you
even move - all it requires is a slight tightening of the hand to move
the point/blade to completely close the sixte line...
Sabre is more dramatic and obvious (well it is sabre ! :-) )- with
tierce guard keeping the hand in tierce position, but the blade angled
across the front, and not off to the side as for tierce parry, edge
should be forwards whereas for tierce parry edge should be out at 45
deg. angle....
From Guard position, you can more readily develop an attack, while still
being in a position from which minor hand positioning closes the
defensive line completely.
bye for now & Happy Fencing
David Laloum
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
In article <7r23hl$6...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
ed...@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:
> Nice to see that you are able to count to eight in ancient italian.
>
Ahem..... that is Old French....
Bye for now & Happy Fencing
carol
>One thing I have noted over and over again, is how many people confuse
>the concept of Guard Position and Parry.
David, excellent discussion showing the importance of arm and hand
positions and the economies of motion in movement between actions!
Pengo27
sixte noticeably exposes your inside wrist (of course this can be used as a
baiting tactic).
<laloum...@jpmorgan.com> wrote in message
news:7r3a2v$kf6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hi Ben,
>
> Good Answer...
>
> In article <199909070900...@hotmail.com>,
> "ben king" <chrys...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > They are not point on the target
> > - but rather hand positions in the french system.
> >
> > These hand positions are also guard positions and parry positions
> > which are able to cover or defend areas on your target.
>
> One thing I have noted over and over again, is how many people confuse
> the concept of Guard Position and Parry.
>
> A Guard position is a position of readiness, from which one can parry -
> or rather move to a parry position, almost instantaneously.
>
> It may or may not be the same position as the parry - but it need not
> be!
>
> So for example - the standard "en guard" position, with the hand in
> sixte, is not necessarily identical to a sixte parry position.
>
> Depending on the teacher (!), I have been taught that sixte guard has
> the point somewhat in, facing the opponents face, whereas sixte parry
> moves the point out somewhat, pointing more around the opponents
> shoulder. (not a massive difference, but split seconds do count!)
>
> Using the guard position as a parry is innefective, the difference in
> blade position leaves you open - on the other hand, you are more ready
> for any offensive action with the point almost "on target" before you
> even move - all it requires is a slight tightening of the hand to move
> the point/blade to completely close the sixte line...
>
> Sabre is more dramatic and obvious (well it is sabre ! :-) )- with
> tierce guard keeping the hand in tierce position, but the blade angled
> across the front, and not off to the side as for tierce parry, edge
> should be forwards whereas for tierce parry edge should be out at 45
> deg. angle....
>
> From Guard position, you can more readily develop an attack, while still
> being in a position from which minor hand positioning closes the
> defensive line completely.
>
>
> bye for now & Happy Fencing
KSMJR
>
>
Now is there really any reason to be rude? Besides, he's asking an honest
question that has nothing to do with the flick! Not to mention the fact that
it is ancient French (Italian would be prima, seconda, terza, carta, etc.)
In any case, regarding the true question at hand, the positions are those which
an ancient swordsman would have gone through when drawing his sword from the
scabbard and defending himself. I can't provide any links, but most fencing
books make a rather good accounting of the positions. I would personally
recomend Castello's _Theory and Practice of Fencing_, but seeing as it's been
out of print for fifty-someodd years, that might not be the best choice.
Of course, Mortimer, you could always wait until you got a teacher and simply
ask him to explain it:)
Keith
Bryan J. Maloney
> In article <7r1qc7$9vn$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, Mortimir <unknown> wrote:
>
> Nice to see that you are able to count to eight in ancient italian.
French.
todd
Pronated is palm down, supinated is palm up. Sorry. Just remember: Sup (SUPinated)
is up!
todd wrote:
> Attached are scanned gifs of the French system of parries. Below each, I wrote
> supinated (palm down) or pronated (palm up). These are from Nick Evangelista's
> "The Art and Science of Fencing", I believe.
>
> Todd
>
> Mortimir wrote:
>
> > I came across these terms a few years back in an encyclopedia, and have
> > since heard them around here and in other places. I have not yet been able
> > to understand the concept or the specific location of these points on the
> > torso. Could someone please explain? I would really like it if someone
> > could give me a good link with pictures and in depth explanation. Thanks in
> > advance.
> >
> > Mortimir
>
> --
> Todd
>
> "Ignorance is not having the knowledge to use,
> Stupidity is not using the knowledge you have."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image] [Image]
--
Todd
"Ignorance is not having the knowledge to use,
Stupidity is not using the knowledge you have."
Mortimir
your assistance as well...well, maybe not Eric....he's kind of a bitch
sometimes...=P j/k Eric, maybe some hearty laughter will loosen that stick
up your ass!
Mortimir
todd <tmer...@wvu.edu> wrote in message news:37D59BF7...@wvu.edu...
> Attached are scanned gifs of the French system of parries. Below each, I
wrote
> supinated (palm down) or pronated (palm up). These are from Nick
Evangelista's
> "The Art and Science of Fencing", I believe.
>
> Todd
>
> Mortimir wrote:
>
> > I came across these terms a few years back in an encyclopedia, and have
> > since heard them around here and in other places. I have not yet been
able
> > to understand the concept or the specific location of these points on
the
> > torso. Could someone please explain? I would really like it if someone
> > could give me a good link with pictures and in depth explanation.
Thanks in
> > advance.
> >
> > Mortimir
>
> --
> Todd
>
> "Ignorance is not having the knowledge to use,
> Stupidity is not using the knowledge you have."
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Bob Lyle
wrote:
>The other four are all pronated and best ignored to start with as they'll
>only et you into trouble as they're apt to be executed badly.
I do disagree: it depends on the master and what you practice.
My basic four were quint, tierce, seconde, and septieme, and noody
ever said my parries were executed badly. OK, Maitre Wieder did, at
first. We only used sixte, carte, and octave for circular parries
until we started on epee..
Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
awkward.
Bob Lyle
carol
>>The other four are all pronated and best ignored to start with as they'll
>>only et you into trouble as they're apt to be executed badly.
>
>I do disagree: it depends on the master and what you practice.
>
>My basic four were quint, tierce, seconde, and septieme, and noody
>ever said my parries were executed badly. OK, Maitre Wieder did, at
>first. We only used sixte, carte, and octave for circular parries
>until we started on epee..
agreed - depending on the master, he would teach you appropriately to yhr
level of knowledge available.
.
>Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
>awkward.
oh, now coe one now, this is an extremeley poor statement!! my god, if you
think this way, just give yourself to me, and i can riposte you in at least
3 different wyas from prime!@!!! and the ripostes _are not awkward_ but
rather, a very nice joy that i have a nice bloke who would oblige :) <g>
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
In article <37d845aa...@newnews.metronet.com>,
madr...@metronet.com (Bob Lyle) wrote:
> I do disagree: it depends on the master and what you practice.
>
> My basic four were quint, tierce, seconde, and septieme, and noody
> ever said my parries were executed badly. OK, Maitre Wieder did, at
> first. We only used sixte, carte, and octave for circular parries
> until we started on epee..
Ok, you have me fascinated!
Why ?
What was your masters training/background ?
What was his logic behind starting with the pronated tierce/seconde
parries ?
There is an old time tradition, especially in French Epee, that used
tierce and second, combined with sixte for circular parries of
substantial strength.... But the old time Masters that reccomended that,
also reccomended starting from a strong basis in Foil, and in that Foil
basis, they reccomended starting with the supinated positions -
sixte/quarte.
Please indulge my curiosity!
> Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
> awkward.
Prime is a parry designed for certain tactical situations, if youa re
finding it useless, it may have to do with the tactical situations you
find yourself in.
It is excellent for traditional style infighting - but unfortunately,
nowadays infighting ends up with corps a corps, which is unnecessary,
there are techniques for fencing at close distance, and prime is part of
that repertoire.
Pre-Electric, you could in such a situation, take a prime parry, when
very close to the opponent, take a passing step, and then a pivot,
before extending into an attack again - having changed places with your
opponent, tricky, sneaky, but perfectly legal early this century.
Bye for now & Happy Fencing
Link Mueller
<37d845aa...@newnews.metronet.com>...
>
> Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
> awkward.
>
>
I'm not normally a foil fencer, I primarily fence sabre, but I work out
with the foilest in the club. One of them has a nasty little coupe which
lands like a flick to the chest. Over the last couple of weeks, I've had
luck with a half retreat/prime parry but like you said, the riposte is
difficult. Been having some luck with a fient to chest and disengaging
under his four parry......but I think he's finally catching on :)
Brendan Baby
Sixte (six), Octave (eight), quarte (four), and septime (seven) are not executed
in supination. In 8, and 7 the thumb should be on top of the guard, in 4 you
pronate slightly, only in 6 should you even consider supination and then just a
little. To be honest though, you aren't going to learn anything useful out of a
book, most of them are out of date and even if they aren't you still are only
reading theory, not applying it. Find a club in your area and sign up for a
beginner class. Get a coach. He/She will be able to answer all your questions,
and hopefully keep you from picking up too many bad habits. If you don't know
of any clubs in your area go to www.usfa.org They have a list of almost every
club in the country divided up by regions. Good luck.
Brendan
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
In article <37D7D31A...@psu.edu>,
Brendan Baby <bbb...@psu.edu> wrote:
> Mortimir,
>
> Sixte (six), Octave (eight), quarte (four), and septime (seven)
> are not executed in supination. In 8, and 7 the thumb should be
> on top of the guard, in 4 you pronate slightly, only in 6 should
> you even consider supination and then just a little.
Couple of points - even within the French school, there are masters that
vary the hand positions taught - some have sixte fully supinated with
the thumb at 3 oclock, others have the thumb at 12 oclock... similar
variations apply to all the hand positions.
An in depth study of the various texts along with practical application
will end up demonstrating the various advantages of the different hand
positions - none are perfect!
Each provides a different compromise of properties. Some gove more or
less strength, some lend themselves more or less to fine finger control,
and discouraging use of the wrist....
It ain't so simple!
> To be honest though, you aren't going to learn anything useful
> out of a book, most of them are out of date and even if they
> aren't you still are only reading theory, not applying it.
Regarding books and theory, that is perfectly right - the best thing is
to learn good basics from a good Master, and after having spent a few
months learning basics, then start reading the books - the books make
far more sense that way!
With regards to "out of date-ness", allow me to paraphrase the head of
the Academie D'Armes Masters training delegation to Australia, circa
1992... Fencing is a Science that has been fully developed, there is
nothing new to be invented, merely varying tactics to be chosen from the
repertoir.
Some actions come into or out of fashion, but if you study the manuals
dating back to the 1600's you will get a complete repertoir of "Fencing"
- much of which will not be tactically applicable in current
competition, but much of it is directly applicable. The parries are the
same, as are binds, oppositions, stop hits, counter attacks....
> Find a club in your area and sign up
for a
> beginner class. Get a coach. He/She will be able to answer all your
questions,
> and hopefully keep you from picking up too many bad habits. If you
don't know
> of any clubs in your area go to www.usfa.org They have a list of
almost every
> club in the country divided up by regions. Good luck.
Excellent advise - go do some fencing!
If you prefer the "Sport/Olympic" rendition thereof seek under the USFA,
for US based fencing.
If you seek less Sport and more Martial/Classically oriented
disciplines, take a look at http://www.martinez-destreza.com/, and
follow the links to other sites, as needed...
Bye for now & happy fencing
Dirk Goldgar
laloum...@jpmorgan.com wrote:
>
> It is excellent for traditional style infighting - but unfortunately,
> nowadays infighting ends up with corps a corps, which is unnecessary,
> there are techniques for fencing at close distance, and prime is part
of
> that repertoire.
Huh? I see prime and other infighting tactics used all the time, and
by top competitive fencers. Personally I have been having great
success with prime, in the last few years especially as it seems to
have marked out its own place in my game.
--
Dirk Goldgar
(please direct email replies to
<di...@NOSPAMagcsys.com>)
James White
Mortimir wrote in message <7r1qc7$9vn$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
>I came across these terms a few years back in an encyclopedia, and have
>since heard them around here and in other places. I have not yet been able
>to understand the concept or the specific location of these points on the
>torso. Could someone please explain? I would really like it if someone
>could give me a good link with pictures and in depth explanation. Thanks
in
>advance.
>
>Mortimir
>
>
Those are all the guards in "olde french" and simple refer to first, second
,third, etc. Their location in reference to the hand position more than the
locations of the torso. Prime is the first position that youtr hand would
assume upon drawing the blade from its scabbard. Seconde is when you bring
that blade over to your outside line. Tierce is bringing the tip upward
toward's tour opponent, Quarte is assuming they are attacking and you need
to bring the blade across to your inside line (guard four - the first parry
usually taught to beginners). Quinte is moving the point over to "bear down"
on your opponent's blade. Sixte is bringing it back to your outside line for
what what a long time the "standard" guarde position (guard Six). Septieme
and Octave are the lower guards to repel any sneakier attacks below your
highline. It would be easier for me to jsut show you, but i hope this helps.
Nowadays, Six, four, seven, and eight are standard guards. more advanced
fencers learn to utilize the three, five, prime, and seconde guards later
on. As an aside, Prime is good for low-line flicks and binding repostes to
the high line, and tierce is a OK guard to prenet flicks from arriving in
the high outside (shoulder).
James
Jon Charles
we all have "learned" depend greatly on the origin of our coaches. If your
respective coach learned the French system he will be drastically different than one
who studied the Italian school. If you have a Russian coach they are their own
unique style in and of itself which is a kind of combo of the two. Several of the
differances I noticed between response were merely confusions between the Italian
and French schools. Not to worry...the only way that really matters right now is
the way your coach wants it in the lessons!
Brendan Baby wrote:
> Mortimir,
>
> Sixte (six), Octave (eight), quarte (four), and septime (seven) are not executed
> in supination. In 8, and 7 the thumb should be on top of the guard, in 4 you
> pronate slightly, only in 6 should you even consider supination and then just a
> little. To be honest though, you aren't going to learn anything useful out of a
> book, most of them are out of date and even if they aren't you still are only
> reading theory, not applying it. Find a club in your area and sign up for a
> beginner class. Get a coach. He/She will be able to answer all your questions,
> and hopefully keep you from picking up too many bad habits. If you don't know
> of any clubs in your area go to www.usfa.org They have a list of almost every
> club in the country divided up by regions. Good luck.
>
> Brendan
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
Jon Charles <jdc...@psu.edu> wrote:
> Having read all of these it is VERY important to remember that the
positions which
> we all have "learned" depend greatly on the origin of our coaches. If
your
> respective coach learned the French system he will be drastically
different than one
> who studied the Italian school. If you have a Russian coach they are
their own
> unique style in and of itself which is a kind of combo of the two.
Several of the
> differances I noticed between response were merely confusions between
the Italian
> and French schools. Not to worry...the only way that really matters
right now is
> the way your coach wants it in the lessons!
Hi Jon,
well said...
Interesting anecdote.... one of the top French Masters (at the time head
coach of France) went on a Masters Training clinic to the USSR, where
they were shown the Russian training methods, techniques etc...
In fascination he asked - what school is that based on, to which they
replied (looking at him very strangely!?) "The French school of
course!".
Bye for now & Happy Fencing
David Laloum
Bryan J. Maloney
> What was his logic behind starting with the pronated tierce/seconde
> parries ?
Actually, that is the very same set of parries recommended by Bazancourt,
and he was giving advice to gentlemen on how to survive a duel. Of
course, he also said that the supinated outside parries were wonderful to
learn, but that he would not teach them as the first things to use to a
man who had never held a sword and needed to defend his life with one
quite soon.
> Pre-Electric, you could in such a situation, take a prime parry, when
> very close to the opponent, take a passing step, and then a pivot,
> before extending into an attack again - having changed places with your
> opponent, tricky, sneaky, but perfectly legal early this century.
Also, one can take prime and then pass oblique towards your opponent's
outside line while maintaining opposition. Once inside his distance,
touch the flank (I'm left-handed) while passing him.
Bryan J. Maloney
> Mortimir,
>
> Sixte (six), Octave (eight), quarte (four), and septime (seven) are not
executed
> in supination. In 8, and 7 the thumb should be on top of the guard, in 4 you
> pronate slightly, only in 6 should you even consider supination and then just
Sixte is very supinated. Octave and septime likewise, although septime is
somewhat less so supinated. Quarte is also less supinated. A pronated
quarte is incredibly awkward--the human body is not build to move that
way. It's much easier to get good coverage of the inside line with the
palm up.
ben king
>Reply-To: "rec.spor...@list.deja.com"
><rec.spor...@list.deja.com>
>To: "rec.spor...@list.deja.com" <rec.spor...@list.deja.com>
>Octave...
>Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 06:57:49 GMT
>On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 02:00:44 PDT, "ben king" <chrys...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
> >The other four are all pronated and best ignored to start with as they'll
> >only et you into trouble as they're apt to be executed badly.
>
>I do disagree: it depends on the master and what you practice.
Can't argue with that - the four I mentioned were the ones I started with.
>My basic four were quint, tierce, seconde, and septieme, and noody
>ever said my parries were executed badly. OK, Maitre Wieder did, at
>first. We only used sixte, carte, and octave for circular parries
>until we started on epee..
>
>Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
>awkward.
Awww - But flying cutovers are so much fun! :)
Cheers, ben
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Bob Lyle
>> My basic four were quint, tierce, seconde, and septieme, and noody
>> ever said my parries were executed badly. OK, Maitre Wieder did, at
>> first. We only used sixte, carte, and octave for circular parries
>> until we started on epee..
>
>Ok, you have me fascinated!
>
>Why ?
>
>What was your masters training/background ?
>What was his logic behind starting with the pronated tierce/seconde
>parries ?
>
Mister Wieder (I've seen his licence, but he never used Master or
Maitre himself) maintained it was because he was trained in the
Italian school. Either this was a different school than M. Gaugler
exposes, or M. Weider had a more individual style than he told us. I
regret to say I didn't know enough of different schools to quiz him
when he was alive.
Our guard was centered with the hand pronated. Tierce and quint are
very quick from this position (especially when you learn the trick of
adding the extra twist of the wrist to go into tierce) and
particularly solid against the force attacks beloved by beginning
fencers. He delighted in showing us that we were impervious to a
glissade.
Seconde was used for the low outside line as a opposition parry. Rock
solid against a bind from tierce to second Even after we learned the
rest of the parries I never used Octave.
Prime for infighting? No, we never did that. That was when we used
carte and sixte. I take that back: I did use it in epee where I
riposted to the right knee.
I am too tired to add more coherently, now. Thanks for asking.
Bob Lyle
Brendan Baby
and other eastern european coaches using a pistol grip, hence my variation
on the parries. With a french grip in the French school Supination and
Pronation are correct.
Olivier Navarre
Olivier Navarre
rue de l'Amérique, 79
B 6120 HAM SUR HEURE
BELGIQUE
WEB: http://web.wanadoo.be/estoc.taille
----------
Dans l'article <7r3td0$d86$1...@galaxy.us.dell.com>, "Pengo27"
<cron...@austin.rr.com> a écrit :
>> bye for now & Happy Fencing
>>
>> David Laloum
>>
>>
>> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
This is my first answer to the group on that peculiar point :
Discussions about were the blade should be, what angle is to be made with
the arm and so on should be more specific or we may easily drift and become
scholastic.
The different hand positions should be regarded as basic formulas in order
to solve a basic fencing problem : what is the (my) best compromise in order
to be able to attack or to prepare an attack , a counter attack, a parry, or
doing nothing to rest a little...and still no feel twisted . Several
centuries of fencing have given us what we all know .
The problem of the parry depends more on times fashion .There are several
parameters the fencer (and fencing writers) doesn't control completely :
what's the intention of the other fighter, is it a real attack? What's the
speed and the depth of it . Is it classical , or what we call in french a
"coup lancé ". What's the size of the opponent, is he(she) left or right
hander- what is her(his) guard position? The (apparent) contradiction is
that you have to describe static positions in order to induce evolutive
concepts and responses.But the final step is the fight, this is the place
were you build you own fighter's history : knowing the cicuit, the
referees,yourself, the attitude of your family when you come back late after
an unexpected quarter final.... You'll find in the books what is not
changing too much in the fencing art. The rest must be built in the moving
reality.
As a teacher,I would say that my purpose is to show one how to discover
his(her) own efficiency,more than giving him(her) pieces of external truth
little to little.The fencer , even the complete beginner is far from being a
blank page. My question is always : What is to become of your style ?
I have seen very often young kids re-inventing fencing, re-discovering hand
positions and tactical concepts, having good intuitions...such as choosing
me for teacher.
Maybe one day my pupils will make a good teacher out of me ....
Dirk Goldgar
"Olivier Navarre" <olivier...@wanadoo.be> wrote:
> [snipped]
Well put.
--
Dirk Goldgar
(please direct email replies to
<di...@NOSPAMagcsys.com>)
Olivier Navarre
WEB: http://web.wanadoo.be/estoc.taille
>> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
barb...@open.org
hate to agree with Carol, there is at least one really nifty reposte from
prime: whipping the point over by squeezing the fingers and snapping the
wrist. This will sometimes disarm your opponent. I must admit, though,
that I didn't learn it until my late 30's, and I had been fencing, off and
on since I was 16.
Charles Selberg taught me this. (apripos to another thread) He was a
student of Jack Nottingham who was a student of Aldo Nadi. Selberg has a
beaten up old Italian foil that he got from Jack that once belonged to
Nadi.
>
> >Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
> >awkward.
>
> .
> oh, now coe one now, this is an extremeley poor statement!! my god, if you
> think this way, just give yourself to me, and i can riposte you in at least
> 3 different wyas from prime!@!!! and the ripostes _are not awkward_ but
> rather, a very nice joy that i have a nice bloke who would oblige :) <g>
--
Barbara (One neuron in the Global Brain reaching out for connection and community)
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
In article <37da8c1c...@newnews.metronet.com>,
madr...@metronet.com (Bob Lyle) wrote:
> Our guard was centered with the hand pronated. Tierce and quint are
> very quick from this position (especially when you learn the trick of
> adding the extra twist of the wrist to go into tierce) and
> particularly solid against the force attacks beloved by beginning
> fencers. He delighted in showing us that we were impervious to a
> glissade.
> Seconde was used for the low outside line as a opposition parry. Rock
> solid against a bind from tierce to second Even after we learned the
> rest of the parries I never used Octave.
Fascinating - this sounds ever so much like traditional Italian Rapier
technique!
Sounds like your master was trained by a late Rapier master of the
Italian school - I would love to fence you sometime and exchange
notes...
Bye for now & Happy Fencing
Colin Fee
It sounds (reads ?) like Bob is talking about sabre and that he is
referring to the starting _position_ of tierce, from whic hthe
transition to parry of tierce or quinte is very quick indeed.
--
Colin.
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Epidemiology & Preventive Medicine | "It's all in the mind,
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Prahran, Victoria, Australia |
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laloum...@jpmorgan.com
Hows things at RMIT/Swin. ?
You could be right.... I was making the (possibly false) assumption that
we were talking about thrusting weapons - Foil & Epee.
Based on that the combination sounds very "Rapierish"
But it would make far more sense in Sabre..... Although the
Tierce/Seconde bind does seem to imply a thrusting weapon .
Bob ?
Bye for now & Happy Fencing
David Laloum
In article <37DDB566...@med.monash.edu.au>,
Olivier Navarre
you are a right hander (vice versa), if your adversary is quite close to
you, take prime without leaving contact with his(her weapon ( you are making
a so called in french "liement") , take care to have your elbow over the
mask and then riposte in the low part of the target along your adversary's
blade; I try to be as clear as possible, if I am not I'll try another way to
explain it.
Olivier Navarre
rue de l'Amérique, 79
B 6120 HAM SUR HEURE
BELGIQUE
WEB: http://web.wanadoo.be/estoc.taille
----------
Dans l'article <7r8mqm$jme$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, laloum...@jpmorgan.com a
écrit :
>Hi Bob,
>
>In article <37d845aa...@newnews.metronet.com>,
> madr...@metronet.com (Bob Lyle) wrote:
>> I do disagree: it depends on the master and what you practice.
>>
>> My basic four were quint, tierce, seconde, and septieme, and noody
>> ever said my parries were executed badly. OK, Maitre Wieder did, at
>> first. We only used sixte, carte, and octave for circular parries
>> until we started on epee..
>
>Ok, you have me fascinated!
>
>Why ?
>
>What was your masters training/background ?
>What was his logic behind starting with the pronated tierce/seconde
>parries ?
>
>There is an old time tradition, especially in French Epee, that used
>tierce and second, combined with sixte for circular parries of
>substantial strength.... But the old time Masters that reccomended that,
>also reccomended starting from a strong basis in Foil, and in that Foil
>basis, they reccomended starting with the supinated positions -
>sixte/quarte.
>
>Please indulge my curiosity!
>
>> Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
>> awkward.
>
>Prime is a parry designed for certain tactical situations, if youa re
>finding it useless, it may have to do with the tactical situations you
>find yourself in.
>
>It is excellent for traditional style infighting - but unfortunately,
>nowadays infighting ends up with corps a corps, which is unnecessary,
>there are techniques for fencing at close distance, and prime is part of
>that repertoire.
>
>Pre-Electric, you could in such a situation, take a prime parry, when
>very close to the opponent, take a passing step, and then a pivot,
>before extending into an attack again - having changed places with your
>opponent, tricky, sneaky, but perfectly legal early this century.
>
>Bye for now & Happy Fencing
>
>David Laloum
>
>
Olivier Navarre
Olivier Navarre
rue de l'Amérique, 79
B 6120 HAM SUR HEURE
BELGIQUE
WEB: http://web.wanadoo.be/estoc.taille
----------
Dans l'article <7r3a2v$kf6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, laloum...@jpmorgan.com a
écrit :
>bye for now & Happy Fencing
david arias
right versus right handed. that is such an awkward position at first. i
haven't tried it in a bout yet... should be entertaining ;-)
david
Olivier Navarre <olivier...@wanadoo.be> wrote in message
news:7rm59c$pfk$1...@buty.wanadoo.nl...
For prime : also try this : after a parry of sixte against a left hander if
you are a right hander (vice versa), if your adversary is quite close to
you, take prime without leaving contact with his(her weapon ( you are making
a so called in french "liement") , take care to have your elbow over the
mask and then riposte in the low part of the target along your adversary's
blade; I try to be as clear as possible, if I am not I'll try another way to
explain it.
Olivier Navarre
rue de l'Amérique, 79
B 6120 HAM SUR HEURE
BELGIQUE
WEB: http://web.wanadoo.be/estoc.taille
----------
Dans l'article <7r8mqm$jme$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, laloum...@jpmorgan.com a
écrit :
>Bye for now & Happy Fencing
Fat boy Ed
Bob Lyle wrote:
>
>
> Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
> awkward.
>
> Bob Lyle
Hi Bob
I take exception to the prime thing. I do quite a lot of infighting and
the prime is a choice move once you are inside. My favorite riposte is to the
belly -rather easy. far more difficult and complex is the prime flick to the
flank on the weapon side (righty) and when i really feel light on my feet, the
flying prime -flick-to the back. I'k kinda short and round ( 5-7 255lbs.) so
i like to get inside whenever i can.
Fat Boy Ed
Fat boy Ed
ben king wrote:
> >From: "Bob Lyle" <madr...@metronet.com>
>
> >
> >Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
> >awkward.
>
> Awww - But flying cutovers are so much fun! :)
>
> Cheers, ben
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Greetings
Ya! I love them fun ripostes from prime. I had a great work out this past
weekend. One of my salle mates has developed this wicked flick to the wrist in
epee. It was driving me crazy. I worked on a solution for about 10 hits and
landed a beauty. Ok maybe this is not new to you ,but i am very pleased. He is a
lefty and i'm a righty,so, as he shot the flick a pulled back my forearm
slightly and closed into a parry three, as the flick clanged onto the bell i
then held the position then flicked to the foot and landed four times in 7
tries. Three times when his foot was on the piste and once on the fly. Theory is
all nice and good ,but you really gotta get out there on the strip and see what
really works for YOU!
All the best Fat Boy ED
david arias
real infighting action.
wait for (or cause) you opponent to attack, step forward with prime parry
(my bell will end up near my mask, hand supinated), them flick to the flank
on their weapon side (if right handed). hard to practice in the real world.
i probably need a little work on the practice dummy to get some confidence.
david
Fat boy Ed <gray...@humboldt1.com> wrote in message
news:37F8483C...@humboldt1.com...
>
>
> Bob Lyle wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Prime really is useless: its a good enough parry, but the ripposte is
> > awkward.
> >
sab...@my-deja.com
Fat boy Ed <gray...@humboldt1.com> wrote:
> I'k kinda short and round ( 5-7
255lbs.) so
> i like to get inside whenever i can.
>
> Fat Boy Ed
>
>
Damn, Ed. I'd always kind of wondered, given your alias. As a 5-10,
200 lbs sabre fencer (heavy set, not fat, to quote someone) I thought I
was approaching the mass to height maximum, but no longer.
From one strip pounder to another, regards,
Mark Ray
aka "sabreur"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dirk Goldgar
this past
> weekend. One of my salle mates has developed this wicked flick to the
wrist in
> epee. It was driving me crazy. I worked on a solution for about 10
hits and
> landed a beauty. Ok maybe this is not new to you ,but i am very
pleased. He is a
> lefty and i'm a righty,so, as he shot the flick a pulled back my
forearm
> slightly and closed into a parry three, as the flick clanged onto the
bell i
> then held the position then flicked to the foot and landed four times
in 7
> tries. Three times when his foot was on the piste and once on the
fly. Theory is
> all nice and good ,but you really gotta get out there on the strip
and see what
> really works for YOU!
What?! A parry three? But everybody knows epee fencers don't do those!
--
Dirk Goldgar
(if replying by email, please address to
<di...@NOSPAMagcsys.com)
Fat boy Ed
I WISH i was 200 lbs. I was once about that ,but that was before
fencing.
All the best Fat Boy Ed
sab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <37F8483C...@humboldt1.com>,
> Fat boy Ed <gray...@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>
> > I'k kinda short and round ( 5-7
> 255lbs.) so
> > i like to get inside whenever i can.
> >
> > Fat Boy Ed
> >
> >
>
> Damn, Ed. I'd always kind of wondered, given your alias. As a 5-10,
> 200 lbs sabre fencer (heavy set, not fat, to quote someone) I thought I
> was approaching the mass to height maximum, but no longer.
>
> From one strip pounder to another, regards,
>
> Mark Ray
> aka "sabreur"
>
Fat boy Ed
Dirk Goldgar wrote:
> In article <37F84C97...@humboldt1.com>,
> Fat boy Ed <gray...@humboldt1.com> wrote:
> >
Jon Charles
Jon
Fat boy Ed wrote:
> HI Mark
>
> I WISH i was 200 lbs. I was once about that ,but that was before
> fencing.
>
> All the best Fat Boy Ed
>
> sab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > In article <37F8483C...@humboldt1.com>,
> > Fat boy Ed <gray...@humboldt1.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'k kinda short and round ( 5-7
> > 255lbs.) so
> > > i like to get inside whenever i can.
> > >
> > > Fat Boy Ed
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Damn, Ed. I'd always kind of wondered, given your alias. As a 5-10,
> > 200 lbs sabre fencer (heavy set, not fat, to quote someone) I thought I
> > was approaching the mass to height maximum, but no longer.
> >
> > From one strip pounder to another, regards,
> >
> > Mark Ray
> > aka "sabreur"
> >
Fat boy Ed
Fat boy Ed
Just out of curiosity, since you have a difficult time riposting from
prime, what school/style do you fence. Could it be a stylistic difference? In
my early days i fenced with the french. I too had a difficult time with the
primes because the long handle would limit the range of motion of the
weapon,especially because the pommel would "jam" against the wrist/lower
forearm. I found a solution to that problem . By breaking the wrist during
prime and allowing the pommel to slide past the wrist then using my thumb to
point up towards target then allowing the feet to close ground for the hit.
Maybe you should give it a try sometime. A more modern approach is to hold the
french higher up on the handle so the pommel does not interfere. Nowadays the
prime is better executed by LIFTING the opponents blade, immediately before
the riposte, just a tad to allow a better selection of target .
All the best Fat Boy Ed