fencing dummy
Joseph Henderson
please post.
Thanks
Nukefencer
detailed instructions on building a fencing dumy. It can be purchased from
Tripplette.
====================== -)------------------------ ============================
Kevin T. Matthews
NukeF...@aol.com
I'm a Nuke, and a Fencer.The name says it all.
John Twernbold
fencing dummy. (If you've seen the movie, "By the Sword", it includes a
dummy built from Volkmann's plans.) It's also a terrific book on fencing,
and includes a wonderful section on maintainance & repair of electric
equipment. You can order Dr. Volkmann's book from Triplette (www.triplette);
it might also be available from American Fencers Supply (www.amfence.com).
Isabre
claus Gerards
claus
Isabre wrote:
> Hire a bad coach.
Samuel Lillard
claus Gerards
Bryan J. Maloney
<slil...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
> claus Gerards wrote in message <37061112...@gmx.net>...
> >or fence with an american
>
>
> Must be a Serb.
No, he's obviously just fenced lots of Americans. HOW many golds has the
USA taken home in fencing?
--
To women contemplating marriage: The question you should ask is not
"How much do I love him?" The real question is "How much can I
tolerate him?"
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bjm10/
david arias
i would like to add a comment. it is foolish and short-sighted to assume
because americans have not done well internationally in fencing that they
never will. exactly that thinking has made it such a struggle to achieve
real progress. there are clubs doing things in the US that would astound
you.
more importantly, i have talked to two frenchmen (specifically) and a few
others (conversationally) that were quite confident that the US will make
very significant headway by the 2004 olympics.
david arias
birmingham fencing club
(you have no idea how much i am holding my tongue)
Bryan J. Maloney wrote in message ...
Kjkb
next time another country invades them. Us inadequate Americans just
wont do.
Stuart
--
Through this fist way one gains long life and happiness
sab...@my-dejanews.com
h...@west.net wrote:
> If anyone has plans or suggestions on how to make a fencing dummy,
> please post.
>
> Thanks
>
If I was more cynical, having observed this question cropping up about every
3-6 months, I might guess that it is a shameless troll to gin up interest in
the "Big book of Fencing," by Mr. Volkman, available from Tripplette.
But of course, I'd never be that cynical.
Regards, Mark Ray
aka "sabreur"
Sabre--you can't take heads with the point.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bryan J. Maloney
> Just tell all these "Arrogant" foreign fencers to show their gold medals
> next time another country invades them. Us inadequate Americans just
> wont do.
You really don't realize how you sound, do you?
"We can't fence, so we'll kill you all!"
Nukefencer
>3-6 months, I might guess that it is a shameless troll to gin up interest in
>the "Big book of Fencing," by Mr. Volkman, available from Tripplette.
>
>But of course, I'd never be that cynical.
>
>Regards, Mark Ray
I study under Dr. Volkman, and if there were such a conspiracy, I'm pretty sure
I would know about it. So, yes, you are being too cynical.
Kjkb
sabe...@webtv.net
someone suggested that he was a Serb. I ask, what's the difference? A
monster is a monster is a monster no matter what nationality.
Matt Pearsall
attempt to make it quasi-topical trolling, just pure nastiness. I think
that it's about time to retire this thread before more people get pissed
off and this degenerates into a flame-war.
Matt Pearsall
ma...@cc.wwu.edu
todd
Looks like you can also make a fencing dummy by taking a hit at his
patriotism!
Aber das Deutschlander ist nicht so schon.
Todd
Bryan J. Maloney
nukef...@aol.com (Nukefencer) wrote:
> I study under Dr. Volkman, and if there were such a conspiracy, I'm
pretty sure
> I would know about it. So, yes, you are being too cynical.
Of course, part of that conspiracy would include sources close to Dr.
Volkman denying the existance of a conspiracy.
claus Gerards
todd wrote:
your right germany stinks but we still got good fencers
some of you should take this thread (especially mine ) with a bit humor
claus
c.ge...@gmx.net
claus Gerards
david arias
think that there is a way to ban a particular email address, isn't there?!?!
really pathetic *sigh*
david
sabe...@webtv.net wrote in message
<25324-370...@newsd-111.bryant.webtv.net>...
Chuck Allen
sabe...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Some arrogant little foreign fencer pointed out that he was German when
> someone suggested that he was a Serb. I ask, what's the difference? A
> monster is a monster is a monster no matter what nationality.
>
Probably written by some arrogant American, with a parochial attitude
not typical of most of us. The only thing worse than foreign monsters is
the home-growed type!
Chuck Allen
Cassory
but what about the real Dummy. CAn anybody give any advice for a non human
Practice dummy for my fencing club to train them on.
Thanks
Books
Nukefencer
You must have missed the earlier response where I mentioned the book Magnum
Libre D'Escrime (Big Book of Fencing) by Rudy Volkman and was accused of being
part of a conspiracy to drum up business for the book.
sabe...@webtv.net
home-growed type."<
Awwwww, isn't that cute? That still isn't challenging my former
statement that Serbs and Germans are monsters. If anything, you're
agreeing.
Mister Orange
Serbs, and Germans is irrelevant (unless you want to comment on their
foil/epee/saber skills), and potentially offensive. maybe it's time to let
this thread die?
-neil moakley
umbc fencing
<sabe...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:10367-37...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net...
Bryan J. Maloney
sabe...@webtv.net wrote:
> Awwwww, isn't that cute? That still isn't challenging my former
> statement that Serbs and Germans are monsters. If anything, you're
> agreeing.
Goethe.
Fr. Savas.
Karl Luhr, A+,CNA,MCP
Muenster open a few years back ;)
claus Gerards wrote in message <37066B24...@gmx.net>...
>no. german :-)
Karl Luhr, A+,CNA,MCP
saying that the problem with American fencing isn't lack of talent, but lack
of exposure to "different" techniques and styles. We don't get that many
NIF's over here, so we don't know how to react/defend against them.
david arias wrote in message ...
>i don't like the tone of this thread... all-around inappropriate.
>
>i would like to add a comment. it is foolish and short-sighted to assume
>because americans have not done well internationally in fencing that they
>never will. exactly that thinking has made it such a struggle to achieve
>real progress. there are clubs doing things in the US that would astound
>you.
>
>more importantly, i have talked to two frenchmen (specifically) and a few
>others (conversationally) that were quite confident that the US will make
>very significant headway by the 2004 olympics.
>
>david arias
>birmingham fencing club
>(you have no idea how much i am holding my tongue)
>
>Bryan J. Maloney wrote in message ...
>>In article <bHtN2.9$qx1....@storm.twcol.com>, "Samuel Lillard"
>><slil...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> claus Gerards wrote in message <37061112...@gmx.net>...
>>> >or fence with an american
>>>
>>>
>>> Must be a Serb.
>>
>>No, he's obviously just fenced lots of Americans. HOW many golds has the
>>USA taken home in fencing?
>>
Karl Luhr, A+,CNA,MCP
mask on.. voila! 2 sports for the price of 1 ;)
Nukefencer wrote in message
<19990412215756...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
claus Gerards
claus
ger...@gmx.net
"Karl Luhr, A+,CNA,MCP" wrote:
> Hmmm... You must be the guy who tried to flick into my straight-arm at the
> Muenster open a few years back ;)
>
> claus Gerards wrote in message <37066B24...@gmx.net>...
> >no. german :-)
> >
Car Alva
>No, he's obviously just fenced lots of Americans. HOW many golds has the
>USA taken home in fencing?
>
>
You have oveously not been current to some of the junior events around the
world as of late..does the name Zimmerman ring a bell..
Kevin O'Neill
>These massages are great and all maing fun of all the different nationalities
>but what about the real Dummy. CAn anybody give any advice for a non human
>Practice dummy for my fencing club to train them on.
>Thanks
>Books
Attempting to dodge the ethnic slurs...
Build a stick man from 1x4s, with no arms. One 1x4, 6 feet long.
Bolt on one for a thigh, bolt on one to that for a shin, nail on an
old shoe for a foot. I made a 16' by 2' strip to put mine on by
cutting a sheet of 3/4" plywood in half lengthwise and making a base
from 2x4s.
Mount the dummy on the end. Bolt an old mask to the top of the 1x4
for his head.
Now, the arm is the hard bit. Mine has a shoulder bolt, and an elbow
bolt. Cut and bolt on the bits loose, so you can moove them. Put the
arm in an on guard position, drill two more holes, and put in two more
bolts to hold it in place. Take them out again. Extend the arm to a
point in line, drill holes, etc.
The wrist should have a spring. I used an old motorcycle fork spring.
You can likely get one free at a bike shop. Use a couple of big bolts
to attach it to the arm. I made a short round wood handle to go over
the tang of the blade, which would just jam into the spring, and then
painted it with epoxy to keep it from slipping.
A couple of points:
Don't mess with padding until you're done. It gets in the way.
The bell guard really gets in the way. You'll need to mess with the
blade/spring mounting quite a bit before you're happy. I drilled out
the bell so I can slide it over the blade and down into position, and
put a couple of small holes around the big one so I can zip tie it in
place. If I need to look at the weapon or wrist area, I cut the zip
ties, slide the bell off, and then put it back when I'm done.
For me, it didn't need to be pretty, just robust. Once I set it up on
the end of the strip, the rest went easily. Making it free standing
would be hard. I would think it would be prone to falling over. A
wall mounted arm could work, but the strip is nice since it lets you
do more footwork (fleche past the dummy, for example).
As I said, it's not pretty, but I could email you some pictures if you
want.
Good luck.
Kevin O'Neill
Dallas Fencers' Club
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
Bryan J. Maloney
(Car Alva) wrote:
Just wake me when the US overall total gets within half of that of France
or Italy.
claus Gerards
most of the junior fencer can't make it to the top of the seniors if they get
older
claus
ger...@gmx.net
Car Alva wrote:
> >No, he's obviously just fenced lots of Americans. HOW many golds has the
> >USA taken home in fencing?
> >
> >
>
> You have oveously not been current to some of the junior events around the
> world as of late..does the name Zimmerman ring a bell..
claus Gerards
most of the junior fencer can't make it to the top of the seniors if they get
older
claus
claus Gerards
especially junior fencers are "one day flys".
most of them just don't get it if they are seniors
the level is much higher there
claus
claus Gerards
most of the junior fencer can't make it to the top of the seniors if they get
older
claus
claus Gerards
especially junior fencers are "one day flys".
most of them just don't get it if they are seniors
the level is much higher there
claus
fenc...@my-dejanews.com
and realize that fencing is not as popular here as it is in other countries.
Fencing, as we know it, was invented in Europe and has since gained a better
hold in your culture. Here in America, it's basically a new sport. Most
Americans only know the sport from cheesy "Swashbuckling" movies where guys
in powdered wigs and puffy shirts fence badly while swinging from
chandeliers. Unfortunately, this is what most Americans think of when they
hear mention of fencing. Because of this bad image, most of our potential
fencing athletes will never be exposed to fencing because, at a young age,
they will be indirectly taught that fencing, along with several other Olympic
sports, isn't a manly sport and that they should do baseball, football, or
one of America's other mainstream sports. So, because most of our fencers
start fencing when they are old enough to make the decision to fence without
parental interference (This can be anywhere from around 12-16 yrs old) our
fencing athletes usually do not have as many years of experience as do other,
foreign, fencers. The poor image associated with fencing in America is
changing, however. Maybe you European fencers should stop bad mouthing
American fencing and give it a chance to get a firm hold in the American
sports scene. Once this happens, you will see an increase in the number of
American fencers and American fencing institutions. This will lead to better
coaching and, finally, to better athletes who start fencing at a younger age.
So, maybe you "Great European fencers" (Actually, the European fencers who
are putting Americans down in this discussion probably aren't so great.
They're most likely just hiding behind the achievements of their finer
athletes, using them as shields just so they can say that they're better)
should realize that American fencing is on the upswing in popularity. All we
have to do is give it time and you'll see. Pretty soon, American fencers
will be taking home more golds than you Europeans. Maybe then you'll all
shut the hell up and give American fencing the credit that it deserves.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bryan J. Maloney
> Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American fencing
> and realize that fencing is not as popular here as it is in other countries.
That still doesn't mean that there are a lot of great American fencers.
It explains why there aren't a lot, but it doesn't mean that they
magically appear.
mary anne walker
fencers who were snobs, i've also met some who were perfectly lovely
people, and extremely hospitable.....just like people everywhere...some
good some bad.....
--
Until next time,
Mary Anne Walker
************************************************************
I don't wait for moods. You accomplish nothing if you do that. Your
mind must know it has got to get down to earth. --Pearl S. Buck
To live is so startling it leaves little time for anything else. --E.
Dickinson
Nothing risque, nothing gained. --Alexander Woollcott
claus Gerards
claus
claus Gerards wrote:
> one good junior fencer doesn't make a fencing nation
> most of the junior fencer can't make it to the top of the seniors if they get
> older
Samuel Lillard
Colin Chock
start fencing when they are old enough to make the decision to fence without
parental interference (This can be anywhere from around 12-16 yrs old) <
-I wish it were that young.
>"This is the best country in the world.<
-yeah.
> We are the world leaders<
-yeah.
>and everyone kneels down before us", <
-I know THAT's not true.
>it's the American fencers are the elitists <
-yes because they're the ones who can afford to pursue a minor sport.
>One who takes months to get shonky gear<
-is that a word? shonky, I mean. (good word. like "wuffet.")
-I don't pay too much attn, but it seems like most of the traffic on this
newsgroup is American. since America isn't very strong in fencing, that's
like, I don't know...perhaps "rec.sport.americanfootball" being dominated by
European posts...?
Colin Chock
that can be truly called American. (Though I haven't really researched that
as yet.)<
-I'm sceptical of that. (but I haven't researched it either.)
-that would be cool, though, if America were known for some contribution to
fencing. let's see, what might that be...?
-any of you shonky wuffets out there know?
Andy Myers
Andy the
rookie
Simon Summerfield
>
> Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American fencing
> and realize that fencing is not as popular here as it is in other countries.
Oh, please. Someone's got a huge chip on their shoulder, or
maybe just a massive inferiority complex. First of all, note
my email address and the .au ending (yes, I use my real email
address rather than hide behind a dejanews alias). In case
you don't know, that means I come from Australia, which
incidently, is not in Europe. Fencing here is an even
smaller sport than in America since we have an even shorter
history and a lot fewer people.
You mentioned many reasons for why children don't get encouraged
to do fencing, but I think you missed out the main one: the
arrogant American attitude that they are the best at everything.
From birth, it is continuously drummed into the children that
"This is the best country in the world. We are the world leaders
and everyone kneels down before us", so who's going to encourage
their kids to do a sport where that is not true. It's not until
the teenage years that the children start seeing things clearly
and make their own decisions.
Do what we in Australia are doing...accept that Europe is "the
place" for fencing, recruit some European coaches, organise
tours to Europe to train with the best in the world, compete
in the European tournaments, and learn. Yes, it costs money,
so unfortunately it's not always the best who neccessarily go but
rather the ones who can afford it (and have the time to spend
months over there), but they come back better, empart their
newly discovered knowledge and skill, and everyone benefits
and the sport gets stronger. I'm sure it's no coincidence that
the best USA fencer I've met actually lives in France. You've
just got to accept the fact that sometimes simple weight of
numbers isn't enough to allow you to dominate something. It
takes a lot of hard work. How many people are prepared to
train 5 or 6 days a week? That is what it takes to catch up
to the Europeans.
> Pretty soon, American fencers
> will be taking home more golds than you Europeans. Maybe then you'll all
> shut the hell up and give American fencing the credit that it deserves.
...and that is precisely the attitute that is causing the problem.
Simon.
david arias
you seem like an intelligent fellow, but you fell for that load of manure
this person wrote. there is no "attitude" among fencer in the states than
everywhere. we are just trying to grow to having a competitive fencing
program, just like every other country. was is unproductive is complaining
about it. the real progress is being made by clubs working hard and being
creative, whether in australia or the u.s. or uzbekistan. this newsgroup is
supposed to provide a means of you to help me, and me you. idealistic?
maybe a little, but the alternative is to continue doing the same old thing
with the same old results.
best of luck,
david
Simon Summerfield <sim...@asis.unimelb.edu.au> wrote in message
news:372F7B...@asis.unimelb.edu.au...
Douglas Aberdeen
: Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American fencing
: and realize that fencing is not as popular here as it is in other countries.
: hold in your culture. Here in America, it's basically a new sport. Most
: Americans only know the sport from cheesy "Swashbuckling" movies where guys
: in powdered wigs and puffy shirts fence badly while swinging from
You think it's bad in America... try Australia.. there are two offical
businesses I to get gear from (AFAIK). One who takes months to get
shonky gear, and another who you have to make an appointment with to
be sure he'll be at the store.
BTW Any Canberra fencers read this?
-Doug
Matt J.
<slil...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>I love all European fencers - as long as they are members of NATO.
LOL
However, this might seem amazing to most of you, but from my
experience, it's the American fencers are the elitists (must be my
blue collar).
Robert Davis
Where should I begin on this...
From an American athletic standpoint... Our Australian friend did have a
good point. This country hasn't spent nearly enough time trying to develope
Fencing within this country. In all truthful Honesty, Depending on which
portion of the country that you are, It's not at 12-15 that you get your
first exposure... it's college. (Like myself.) But, when it comes down to
the primary reason as to why America hasn't gotten behind trying to build a
good youth Fencing program like what you can find in most European countries
is not based solely on American Arrogance. (Though it does have a lot to do
with it.) It's based on the one thing that is the driving force of our
Nation. The last bastion of the rich... Economics. At this point, There is
little market for money to be made off fencing in this country by people who
don't fence.
I do sometimes hate to admit it, But when it comes to athletics in this
country at times... The thinking is sometimes that of a spoiled
pre-teenager. If we can't win at it all the time, then we're just not going
to play. (Which is part of the reason why the talk that I've been hearing of
removing Fencing from the Olympics is so hard to take.)
But, that's not t say that everyone within our country is that way... There
is a substantial population of very talented fencers. Unfortuneately,
there's a great difference between a 24 year old American who's been fencing
for around 7 years and a 22 year old French, Italian, Spanish, or Belgian
that's been fencing for 16 years.
And as far as taking the money and going to Europe is concerned... Many of
our nations fencers have been living and studying in Europe for the last 10
years. Yes, there are a lot of things about our fencing program in this
country that needs a lot of work. But, there are steps being taken to ensure
that it will become better as time passes.
But, to one of the things that the American and Australian programs do have
in common. Is, the lack of a set style that has been developed in their
countries. Every one of the major Countries in Europe have taken Centuries
developing the fencing style that they call their own. And developed grips
to accentuate those styles. We on the other hand, Are more of an Eclectic
mix of people who left those countries long ago to try to seek our own
identities. (That or was sent to our homeland cause the British just didn't
want us in their land anymore. Or were brought here against our will.) But,
because of that... We don't have a style that we can call our own. I've
heard it discussed that the 'Flick' is probably one of the only things that
can be truly called American. (Though I haven't really researched that as
yet.)
But, I do however take offense to the Generalization that American's as a
whole are arrogant. That would be like me saying that you're more like the
spitting image or "Crocodile Dundee' carrying an knife the size of Calcutta.
And I know that's not the case. I never have much liked stereotypes for
anyone. And when it comes down to it... I don't really like when a person
looks at Our country, they see Arrogant, smug, holier than thou people. I
only make one request...
When you judge Americans, Don't judge us by our rich atheletes. Or by our
Movie or Television stars... And please definitely don't judge us by our
politicians. (I mean, would you like me to judge you by your president?) If
you want to truly know america... The real america. Be willing to come here
for about a year. Travel the nation and try to actually meet people as you
go. Not everyone is a thug, hoodlum, or and arrogant SoB. There are
actually, some nice level headed people in this country. Unfortunately,
there are times that a cultural attitude and preconseptions can cause
mis-understandings. (Seen it happen too many times when people come here or
when I travel abroad.)
Zebee Johnstone
Douglas Aberdeen <d...@beaker.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>
>You think it's bad in America... try Australia.. there are two offical
>businesses I to get gear from (AFAIK). One who takes months to get
>shonky gear, and another who you have to make an appointment with to
>be sure he'll be at the store.
I know the one you have to make an appointment with, (Angelo StAngelo)
but who is the other?
I've had reasnable sucess with Arnold Pears of Alladin Sports, but
he's about to leave the country, so not a lot of point there.
--
Zebee Johnstone (ze...@zip.com.au) Proud holder of aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"You don't own an Italian motorcycle
- you merely have the privilege of paying its bills."
Chris Holzman
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>
> I know the one you have to make an appointment with, (Angelo StAngelo)
> but who is the other?
> --
> Zebee Johnstone (ze...@zip.com.au) Proud holder of aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
> "You don't own an Italian motorcycle
> - you merely have the privilege of paying its bills."
Angelo St. Angelo? so nice they named him twice? :>
But seriously, I'd love to have access to a place where I could actually go and look
equipment over before I shell out the clams for it.. even if I did have to make an
appointment. To me, going to a fencing gear shop would be like... I dunno, visiting
the Guinness brewery is for someone in the UK.. a pilgramage of the first calibre.
A religious experience to be sure..
best,
chris
--
Chris Holzman
Moniteur d' Escrime
Wichita Fencing Academy
Kelly Ringwald
devastatingly than the americans.
K
On Tue, 4 May 1999 18:37:01 -1000, "Colin Chock" <Ch...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
>>I've heard it discussed that the 'Flick' is probably one of the only things
>that can be truly called American. (Though I haven't really researched that
>as yet.)<
>
Craig Harkins
Looks like the post caught a lot.
*plonk*
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
In article <7goj86$2872$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
"Colin Chock" <Ch...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >I've heard it discussed that the 'Flick' is probably one of the only things
> that can be truly called American. (Though I haven't really researched that
> as yet.)<
>
> -I'm sceptical of that. (but I haven't researched it either.)
> -that would be cool, though, if America were known for some contribution to
> fencing. let's see, what might that be...?
>
> -any of you shonky wuffets out there know?
I believe that the "Flick", was developed from the Coupe during the 50's -
the first era of electric fencing - The weapons then were substantially
heavier than they are now, and the tips even heavier - when you contrast that
to earlier "dry/steam" weapons, you can see how somebody who liked to use
coupe's would suddenly notice the whippiness of the point.
The "belgians" were renown for a heavily coupe based style - which adapted
well to the flick - but I think that the whole flick based fashion came from
the eastern block nations during the 50's and 60's. The Western European
nations were very resistant to it early on - sticking to a more "classical"
style - but after many debates with regards to interpretation of the rules,
the rules were settled on in their current form - with all of the
interpretive problems that this entails!
Best people to ask would be Coaches/Masters who were already working in the
50's & 60's - these would now be in their late 60's and early 70's.....
Bye for now
David Laloum
Benoit Guillou
> Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American fencing
> and realize that fencing is not as popular here as it is in other countries.
What the hell are you talking about ?
1. Fencing is not as popular as that in Europe. There are a lot of major sports
as soccer, tennis or even martial arts with much much more participants.
2. Here in France, fencing IS an elitist sport, compared with, let's say, soccer:
you have to pay much more to practice it and the equipment is quite expensive.
"Basic People" get interested in fencing 15 days every 4 years when we bring a
few medals from the Olympic Games. And they don't even understand the rules...
3. Who "bad mouthed" American fencing ? Sure, you'll become the best of the
world... in a few centuries ;-))) You're already so good at so much sports, we
can be the best at a few ones...
4. Are you afraid that some Expert-Elitist-Extremist-European-Fencer put a bomb
in your E-mail Box ? So why don't you sign your mail ?!
Ben
fenc...@my-dejanews.com
gui...@mail.dotcom.fr wrote:
> fenc...@my-dejanews.com a écrit :
>
> > Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American fencing
> > and realize that fencing is not as popular here as it is in other countries.
>
> What the hell are you talking about ?
> 1. Fencing is not as popular as that in Europe. There are a lot of major sports
> as soccer, tennis or even martial arts with much much more participants.
I don't know if you've ever been to America but, all emphasis is placed on
pushing kids to join what I call our "Mainstream sports." If you look at our
population size as compared to whatever country your from, you'll find that
the ratio of nonfencers to fencers is much more one sided than in your
country, or any European country for that matter. Another piece of evidence
demonstrating that fencing isn't popular in the USA is the fact that we don't
broadcast any Olympic fencing tournaments, unlike the BBC. Also, most high
schools aren't interested in incorporating fencing into their sports
programs, most likely because the powers that be don't view it as a major
scholarship winner like our other sports are. My old high school club had to
fight for three years to show the board of ed that we could create a
promising program. That in itself isn't unreasonable but, we shouldn't have
had to go through with proving that point since every year we had about forty
members. They're finally getting a team next year (With very little funding
and with a lot of complaining and resistance from other coaches of different
sports. Most of my old high school's money goes into lacrosse and football.
All of the other coaches are worried that they'll lose their precious
funding, which buys brand new uniforms EVERY YEAR.).
> 3. Who "bad mouthed" American fencing ? Sure, you'll become the best of the
> world... in a few centuries ;-))) You're already so good at so much sports, we
> can be the best at a few ones...
Who bad mouthed Amerian fencing???? Have you been reading this thread??
> 4. Are you afraid that some Expert-Elitist-Extremist-European-Fencer put a bomb
> in your E-mail Box ? So why don't you sign your mail ?!
What do you care whether or not I sign my e-mail? Does it help my argument in
any way? I'll sign this one just to show good form but, I will not use my
real e-mail addy. Any all opinions about my views should stay in this
discussion group. There's no need for any of you to be sending your opinions
and complaints to my home e-mail address.
Matt
fenc...@my-dejanews.com
gui...@mail.dotcom.fr wrote:
> fenc...@my-dejanews.com a écrit :
>
> > Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American fencing
> > and realize that fencing is not as popular here as it is in other countries.
>
> What the hell are you talking about ?
> 1. Fencing is not as popular as that in Europe. There are a lot of major sports
> as soccer, tennis or even martial arts with much much more participants.
I don't know if you've ever seen the way fencing is treated here in America
but, it kind of resembles the way an unwanted child is treated. It's very
hard to get fencing incorporated into a highschool, or college, sports
program. That's because American shools don't view it as a major scholarship
winner. Take the case of my old high shcool club as an example. The girl
who created it had to fight up untl her senior year to get a recognized
fencing club. Then, we (All of the members) had to fight for another four
years to get the school to incorporate us into their varsity program, with a
lot of resistance from other coaches from diffferent sports, I might add.
One coach went to the board of ed and argued that the money being used on the
fencing team could be better put to use on the athletic fields. On our
beautiful, pristine, flawless athletic fields. I think they are ranked among
the best on Long Island. This coach wanted them redone. This is the kind of
resistance that many fencing programs encounter throughout the US. Also, if
fencing so popular here, why don't we in America receive any footage from
fencing in the Olympic games? The BBC broadcasts it throughout Europe so
there must be some kind of interest in the sport over there.
> 3. Who "bad mouthed" American fencing ? Sure, you'll become the best of the
> world... in a few centuries ;-))) You're already so good at so much sports, we
> can be the best at a few ones...
Who bad mouthed fencing?? Have you been reading this thread???
> 4. Are you afraid that some Expert-Elitist-Extremist-European-Fencer put a bomb
> in your E-mail Box ? So why don't you sign your mail ?!
What do you care whether or not I sign my name to a posting? Does it help my
argument in any way? I'll sign this one just to show good form but, I will
not give out my real e-mail addy. Your opinions and others like them can be
put up in this post so there is no reason to clutter my home e-mail with
them.
JeffNeilF
>I don't know if you've ever seen the way fencing is treated here in America
>but, it kind of resembles the way an unwanted child is treated. It's very
>hard to get fencing incorporated into a highschool, or college, sports
>program. That's because American shools don't view it as a major scholarship
>winner. Take the case of my old high shcool club as an example. The girl
>who created it had to fight up untl her senior year to get a recognized
>fencing club. Then, we (All of the members) had to fight for another four
>years to get the school to incorporate us into their varsity program, with a
>lot of resistance from other coaches from diffferent sports, I might add.
I have a parallel that effectively makes your argument linking popularity and
superiority moot.
Diving. Popularity, media coverage, high school participation (including
funding) are ALL comparable to fencing yet America consistently provides medal
winners at Olympics and world championships. Your argument doesn't hold up.
>> 3. Who "bad mouthed" American fencing ? Sure, you'll become the best of the
>> world... in a few centuries ;-))) You're already so good at so much sports,
>we
>> can be the best at a few ones...
>
>Who bad mouthed fencing?? Have you been reading this thread???
I've only recently joined this newsgroup and have only seen 1 or 2 posts that
could be taken as 'bad mouthing' american fencing; certainly not enough to
warrant an immature, myopic backlash.
Personally, I think European domination of fencing is due to the history the
sport has over there. Does this mean we should gripe about not having a
comparable history over here and excusing our lack of ability on it? A wise
man once said 'I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining'.
Hope this helps,
J
Peter Henkel
Please explain to me: what has the NATO got to do with it ??
Bryan J. Maloney
The best way to get more American fencers is to breed some ourselves, obviously.
fenc...@my-dejanews.com
jeff...@aol.com (JeffNeilF) wrote:
> I've only recently joined this newsgroup and have only seen 1 or 2 posts that
> could be taken as 'bad mouthing' american fencing; certainly not enough to
> warrant an immature, myopic backlash.
You should read more carefully. Especially since I have already attributed
the success of European fencing to its history over there in a previous
posting. This trend of knocking American ability is one that has popped up
in this thread time and time again. I was merely posting a reason as to why
this trend should stop. It sickens me that another American fencer would
take such an apathetic attitude towards insults to his country.
CamFive29
sport has over there. Does this mean we should gripe about not having a
comparable history over here and excusing our lack of ability on it? A wise
man once said 'I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining'.<<
Ok here goes.
I just got back from fencing in paris at the Racing Club. The Racing Club is
one of the best clubs in the world. The reason why the French and other
Europeans do better at tournaments is they train smarter. They have coaches.
They do not have anybody instructing people who are not good coaches. Here, we
have people who just got their 'C' at at local meet and think they have some
sort of new insight on the sport. You see the people they produce. That's why
Europeans mock our fencing.
Here in the US, there are only a handful of clubs that have an actual program
to produce real fencers that works. I am afriad to say, that most of the
fencers in the US are recreational. Where does that put us on the
international scale?
Until American clubs start using efficient means to produce fencers, we're all
just going stay under the foot of the Europeans.
A little perspective. At Division 1 Nationals in South Bend, a junior men's
foil fencer won. A junior took 3rd. In Europe, that would be unthinkable. A
junior winning the national title?!? What does that say about American
fencing?
Something to ponder.
--Matt
CamF...@aol.com
carol
>A little perspective. At Division 1 Nationals in South Bend, a junior men's
>foil fencer won. A junior took 3rd. In Europe, that would be unthinkable. A
>junior winning the national title?!? What does that say about American
>fencing?
that a junior from a club with a well organized training program (as opposed to
someone coached by an instructor who received his 'C' at a local tournament)
shows results; hence, empirical evidence on how to improve american fencing.
.
brings to mind a martial arts maxim: you don't rise to the level of your
expectations, but rather, fall to your level of training. train well.
Chris Holzman
CamFive29 wrote:
A little perspective. At Division 1 Nationals in South Bend, a junior men's
> foil fencer won. A junior took 3rd. In Europe, that would be unthinkable. A
> junior winning the national title?!? What does that say about American
> fencing?
>
> Something to ponder.
>
> --Matt
> CamF...@aol.com
Perhaps what it says is that our juniors, due to a variety of factors such as more
time to train, maybe due to a lack of a job, or by virtue of a flexible school
schedule, or whatever, are training smarter, or more copiously than our seniors.
plus we have had, in recent years, a large influx of European trained coaches who
left Europe when the eastern bloc fell and the money to train and pay fencers (in
socialist states) dried up... Thus we now have better (in some ways, worse in
others) coaching, a more affluent country (mommy and daddy pay for school and
travel), plus young people who are willing to dedicate themselves to the sport, as
well as a drop in the age at which the participants start fencing. It's much
easier to learn new motor skills and thinking patterns when in youth, than when
middle aged. When I started fencing I was 14 years old, and the youngest person
in the academy. Now, the youngest person in the academy is around 9.. and was
introduced to fencing by a middle school PE unit taught by one of our former
fencers. These nine year olds pick things up conceptually much faster than our 30
year old beginners, although it takes more time for the young kids to develop a
clean technique. I personally think we're seeing a new generation of fencers
coming up into the competitive ranks who surpass the skills of the old guard of US
fencers. Your're right, it is about training smarter, which is likely being done,
and its about training younger, which is being done. We are simply at a different
and earlier stage of progression in building the program than the French or other
Europeans.
best
Casper
fenc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American fencing
> and realize that fencing is not as popular here as it is in other countries.
> Fencing, as we know it, was invented in Europe and has since gained a better
> hold in your culture.
Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you...
If EVER anybody gave us Europeans the opportunity to bad-mouth American fencers
it is you by posting this message. I don't know what provoked this outburst of
absolute nonsense (I can only hope it was me:-) but it is obvious you don't no
much about fencing on this side of the Atlantic.
First of all you seem to have the impression fencing is actually a popular sport
over here. As if a large percentage of the Europerean population still caries
epees on a regular basis. In fact what I gather from the posts in the r.s.f. I've
read in the last couple of years most European clubs have the same difficulties
as there American counter parts. Thus, lack of funding, lack of fencers, lack of
good directors lack of everything else. The few exeptions are the larger clubs in
Italy, France and Germany, just three of the over 40 European countries.
Another odd misconception is that most of us start fencing at a very early age.
Well, let me give you the same advise again as I've given you in the wiring chain
thread in this group: Think before you start yelling nonsense over the internet.
Fencing demographics are not that different on ether side of the ocean. Fencer
under 12 are pretty rare over here as well (even in the three super-powers of
fencing France, Italy and Germany). In fact a lot of fencers start at the
university (age 18-20). Most younger fencers (who ussually start aged 12-14)
quitte after a few years when they start to notice girls, beer and mopeds. BTW
IOC research shows this is the general trend for most individual sports on both
Europe and America.
Some more oddities in your message is the general view of fencing to the European
public. Except for the very, very late night coverage of large fencing events at
Eurosport television most of the fencing Europeans get to see is the cheesy
"Swashbuckling" movies where guys in powdered wigs and puffy shirts fence badly
while swinging from chandeliers you Americans shove down our delicate throats. I
theach a crash course fencing at a local high-school (only three lessons for
17-18 year olds) and last week I was asked if fencers also use whips like in
Zorro.
So you see, your little inferiority complex about American fencing is completely
inappropriate. In the three years I am contributing to this group I have hardly
noticed Europeans bad-mouthing the Americans. This group is dedicated to fencing
issues, that generaly means it makes no difference at wich side of the Atlantic
you live one. The only real difference is that on your side you tend to forget
the international possibilities/difficulties of fencing (as you have demonstrated
again with this post). I imagine because you don't see as many foreign fencers as
European competitive fencers.
I have only had two no three discussions in all those years in which I personlay
could quallify as a "European elitist". One about the PFL, and as it turns out I
was right. One about tournament organisation: Well, X-cuse me over here in Europe
we have a lot of tournaments with only 10-20 fencers for one event. We concider
these small and the organisation should be flexable. Some of you Americans look
at these events like large, all important competitions and treat them as
WC-tournaments. (Don't get me wrong, they' re ussually fun and in Europe we've
also got a few fellows who overestimate their importance. We just don't discus
that on the Internet).
And finally, a couple of months ago a cultural "raw" about women-fencing. OK, us
Europeans are not as political correct as you Americans.
(If we ever have discussions about fencing and smoking or fencing and nudity
we'll probably see a little more of European/American elitism).
So after all this is I am only left with one question:
What the hell do you mean with:
> Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American
--
-----------------------------------------------------
When Walking on thin ice you might as well dance
Casper de Swarte
Fencing Foundation Groningen
C.de....@bioledu.rug.nl
---------------------------------------------------------
Colin Chock
funding) are ALL comparable to fencing <
>A wise man once said 'I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining'.<
-and an unwise man put that song into an otherwise good movie.
Colin Chock
the eastern block nations during the 50's and 60's. <
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
Peter_...@t-online.de (Peter Henkel) wrote:
>
> Please explain to me: what has the NATO got to do with it ??
(N)eophytes (A)ssociation for (T)ouche (O)rientation ????
CamFive29
expectations, but rather, fall to your level of training. train well.
<<
>>Perhaps what it says is that our juniors, due to a variety of factors such as
andn in building the program than the French or other
Europeans
<<
Agreed.
--Matt
fenc...@my-dejanews.com
Obviously you can read (At least at a third grade level. Your spelling is so
horrible it makes reading and understanding your arguments dfficult). Maybe
if you read some of the earlier aticles in this thread, particularly those by
Claus Gerards, you'd see what I'm talking about. Or, maybe you wouldn't,
since you already seem predisposed to agreeing with anyone who feels that
Americans will never stand up to the European standard. As for the comment
that fencing is only broadcast late at night in your side of the world,
that's a hell of a lot more than what we get in America. We don't even
recognize the achievements of those few American fencing medal winners in our
newspapers. Now that's a lack of support if I ever saw one. Also, I'd like
to know how many little tournaments with about 20 people there are over in
Europe. Sure, some of our tournaments in America are huge but, that's only
because the USFA likes to have one big tournament for people from a bunch of
different states (Lovingly reffered to as "Sectionals." These tournaments
are so huge that the USFA can hardly keep them organized. In fact, many
times they have a complete lack of organization). Even their qualifiers
force fencers to travel long distances to aggregate in "Large tournaments."
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
> winners at Olympics and world championships. Your argument doesn't hold up.
Not quite - I have seen media coverage of diving events at both Olympic and
championship levels, where I have never seen equivalent coverage of fencing.
Most towns (let alone cities) have a swimming pool, and anywhere you go within
the US there is likely to be a facility for diving, potentially with coaching
available - again the same can't be said for fencing.
The average Joe in the street knows substantially more about diving - which
they are likely to have tried at some stage - even if it was just mucking
around with friends at the local poool - than fencing, about which they know
no more than can be learnt through mainstream Hollywood....
In the US (where I am currently living) and in Australia (where I am from) -
Fencing is an Orphan sport with absolutely negligible media coverage, and
equivalent public awareness.
My Father - who grew up in France and never did any fencing, or knew anyone
who did (!) - had heard of D'Oriola, and knew a bit about fencing purely from
the media..... his own interests were more athletics oriented.
How many equivalent American's (or Australians) could name a National Fencing
Champion ?
Although in a relative sense Fencing will always be smaller than Soccer,
Baseball, American Football etc... A big effort is truly needed by the Fencing
association to provide some good PR for our sport.
This needs to be a grass roots aimed effort - and not an effort to achieve
Olympic Gold - Gold medals will result as the pool of fencers grows and
improves.... the medals are an outcome not a cause - the cause of the lack of
medals, is the lack of grass roots support, spectators, focus, media etc...
> Personally, I think European domination of fencing is due to the history the
> sport has over there. Does this mean we should gripe about not having a
> comparable history over here and excusing our lack of ability on it? A wise
> man once said 'I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining'.
Not quite true - New Orleans had far more blade based duels than any European
city last century....
Although the Wild West gunfight has captured the Imagination of the US, there
is substantial Historical background for the Sword....
Does US History begin with the late 1800's ?!? Is it limited to post-Civil War
events ?!?
Once again the issue is one of where people place their focus - If you choose
to look at History from a Civil War/ Indian War / Wild West perspective - the
sword has little relevance.
But if you choose a perspective of Western Culture within the American
continent, starting from Columbus onwards - then some of Histories greatest
Masters were in the Americas - Spanish Masters who wrote the great treatises
of the 16th/17th centuries, were governors in the Americas, smallsword duels
were fought throughout the Colonies, and later throughout the States and
Canada, Mexico etc....
Perhaps the perspective is a reflection of what standard US school curricula,
and popular Hollywood mythology covers.
Wake up & smell the roses.....
Bye for now
David Laloum
Bryan J. Maloney
> this trend should stop. It sickens me that another American fencer would
> take such an apathetic attitude towards insults to his country.
The truth is never an insult to an honorable man. Americans have an
abysmal fencing record. The manful thing to do is not to whine about why
it may be the case, but to work to change the record.
Damianip
>Obviously you can read (At least at a third grade level. Your spelling is >so
>horrible it makes reading and understanding your arguments dfficult).
Fencer18:
Maybe you should try responding to Casper in Dutch and see how well you do. I
assume from the ".nl" at the end of his address that he is from the
Netherlands.
Considering many of the contributors to this list are courteous enough to
respond in English (which is a second or third language for them) so that we
can understand, you should cut them a break on spelling and grammar.
I wish I could speak Dutch as well as Casper speaks English...
By the way your "dfficult" is missing an "i" and your "aticles" is missing an
"r".
We all live in glass houses.
Paolo
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks
like rotten mackerel by moonlight.
Remove "antijunk" to e-mail
david arias
thought i would share some information. these are not essentially related.
it is focused on fencing in the u.s. but those reading in other cuontries
may get something out of it as well. here it goes...
if you are complaining about the state of fencing in the u.s., you are VERY
likely not one of the people changing things. these changes are fundamental
and generally require questioning every aspect of the sport to date. the
number of people who see this are few and it doesn't matter where their club
is located, its size, or its history. alot of what it takes to do this can
be learned, with an open mind. quit whining and get to work. the usfa is
currently preparing some booklets that will help in areas such as
fund-raising and club development.
if you are not a little scared by the changes in your club, if you are not
thinking where you will be five years down the road, if you are looking at
nearby clubs as a model for how you should do things, if you are not seeking
advice from the best and brightest in other states or countries, if you are
concentrating on increasing the number of fencers and not *managing* your
club.... then plan on things being pretty much the same. a more likely
scenario, watch as someone does and leaves you scratching your head.
very talented coaches are coming from surprising and non-traditional places.
i have met some terrific coaches from algeria, china and south america.
these are people with university degrees in fencing, competition experience
at an international level and years of experience. there are great coaches
in europe (east and west), but they are certainly not the only source of
great coaches. there are some great home-grown coaches as well, and this
will likely be one of the great stories of the next twenty years or so.
and has been said in this newsgroup, a great coach is a key to the success
of any club. if you do not have one, your first priority is to figure out
how to get one. michael massik recently told me the story of how he and
others built the terrific program in louisville kentucky. 1. set goals. 2.
develop long-term plan. 3. define specific actions. 3. get great coach.
4. build program, while CONSTANTLY going back to step one. (these steps
were not michael's, just a summary of what happened). getting a great coach
is by far the hardest part, and if you can accomplish that you obviously
have what it takes to build a successful program.
if you are focusing on the lack of success historically experienced by the
u.s., then you are absolutely clueless. i have talked with people in other
countries who see the changes here, and see them happening quickly
(relatively speaking). what is fascinating is that we have the unusual
opportunity to see the beginning of this change, instead of looking back in
history. don't get me wrong... the u.s. isn't going to step onto the world
fencing scene and kick everyone's collective tails, just be a serious
competitor. still years away, however.
chris, your comments below prompted me to write. well said.
david arias
birmingham fencing club
Chris Holzman <than...@feist.com> wrote in message
news:37313135...@feist.com...
>
>
> CamFive29 wrote:
>
> A little perspective. At Division 1 Nationals in South Bend, a junior
men's
>
> > foil fencer won. A junior took 3rd. In Europe, that would be
unthinkable. A
> > junior winning the national title?!? What does that say about American
> > fencing?
> >
> > Something to ponder.
> >
> > --Matt
> > CamF...@aol.com
>
> and its about training younger, which is being done. We are simply at a
different
> and earlier stage of progression in building the program than the French
or other
Williams
fenc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <37317377...@bioledu.rug.nl>,
> Casper <C.de....@bioledu.rug.nl> wrote:
> > What the hell do you mean with:
> >
> > > Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American fencing.
>
> Obviously you can read (At least at a third grade level. Your spelling is so
> horrible it makes reading and understanding your arguments dfficult). Maybe
> if you read some of the earlier aticles in this thread, particularly those by
> Claus Gerards, you'd see what I'm talking about. Or, maybe you wouldn't,
> since you already seem predisposed to agreeing with anyone who feels that
> Americans will never stand up to the European standard. As for the comment
> that fencing is only broadcast late at night in your side of the world,
> that's a hell of a lot more than what we get in America. We don't even
> recognize the achievements of those few American fencing medal winners in our
> newspapers. Now that's a lack of support if I ever saw one. Also, I'd like
> to know how many little tournaments with about 20 people there are over in
> Europe. Sure, some of our tournaments in America are huge but, that's only
> because the USFA likes to have one big tournament for people from a bunch of
> different states (Lovingly reffered to as "Sectionals." These tournaments
> are so huge that the USFA can hardly keep them organized. In fact, many
> times they have a complete lack of organization). Even their qualifiers
> force fencers to travel long distances to aggregate in "Large tournaments."
>
This again seems an unnecessarily rude and ill-informed contribution to the
discussion.
To start with, noting that this is in response to someone posting from the
Nederlands, the complaint about spelling and levels of language comprehension seems
absurd and extremely anglocentric (the spelling is, in fact, probably at least as
good as my native attempts, especially when tapping on a keyboard) - how good is your
command of Dutch?
The original contributer was pointing out that basically we pretty much all share the
same problems - I'm not familiar with tournament organisation in other European
countries (only some in Canada, USA and UK) but if you are feeling sorry for yourself
with the number of tournaments and distance to travel to those available here in the
USA, try checking out the BFA competition web-page and bear in mind that these are
for the whole country (well several) and may be the only open tournaments (other than
the BUSA college circuit, I am not aware of any other tournaments in the UK) - and,
like everywhere, they are usually organised and run by amateurs.
In Canada, things seem to be improving, but I have heard that it has not been
uncommon in the past for fencers to fly across the whole continent to find that their
event has been cancelled due to insufficient numbers of fencers (at major Canadian
competitions).
As for complaining about the USFA running of Sectionals, again the "USFA" in that
case is basically the local members with some assistance and the need to implement
some special rules from head-quarters. I don't know how big your Sectionals are this
year, ours were somewhat stretched last year when nationals was going to be held in
our section but that did not make them unmanageable - I also don't know of any
"qualifiers" for Sectionals, what were you referring to? Divisional qualifiers are a
different route for qualifying direct to nationals (and sometimes for different
events), aren't they?
Wherever you are (and I would imagine that this applies pretty well everywhere in the
world) if you want more (or even just more convenient) tournaments, learn how to
organise tournaments, learn how to direct and I'm sure your offer of help will be
willingly taken up and help to improve both the quantity and the quality of your
local tournaments.
Sabregran
Bryan J. Maloney
> because the USFA likes to have one big tournament for people from a bunch of
> different states (Lovingly reffered to as "Sectionals." These tournaments
> are so huge that the USFA can hardly keep them organized. In fact, many
> times they have a complete lack of organization). Even their qualifiers
> force fencers to travel long distances to aggregate in "Large tournaments."
Then complain to the USFA instead of whining at Europeans--or have YOUR
club host small local tournaments.
laloum...@jpmorgan.com
> Casper <C.de....@bioledu.rug.nl> wrote:
> > What the hell do you mean with:
> >
> > > Maybe you "Expert European fencers" should stop bad mouthing American
fencing.
>
> Obviously you can read (At least at a third grade level. Your spelling is so
> horrible it makes reading and understanding your arguments dfficult).
Kindly ease off on these kind of unnecessary and obnoxious comments - they do
noting for anyone - and it is worth keeping in mind that Casper's E-Mail
address end with NL - this means the Netherlands/Holland which is not an
English speaking part of the world.....
To be fair to Casper you should respons in Dutch..... so how good is your
spelling in Dutch!?
Let's keep the tone of discussion here civilised - Fencing is a civilised
sport, and that should also be the approach to our communications.
Bye for now & Happy Fencing
Abby Joslin
> >Obviously you can read (At least at a third grade level. Your spelling is >so
> >horrible it makes reading and understanding your arguments dfficult).
I believe we all agree that fencing in the US does not get much
attention, appreciation, etc etc etc. This has been covered... many...
times. I believe we all also agree that in the US, European fencing has
the reputation for being extremely good, prestigious, what have you...
and there appears to be some truth to that.
Fencer18-
Here's my main issue with pretty much everything you have said,
and please correct me if I am wrong (and I would email this to you
personally, rather than to a newsgroup, but that is not an option as
you have chosen not to provide your personal email address): from what I
have been able to tell, you have never studied or fenced in Europe or
abroad. Therefore, without personal experience, to make such
sweeping assumptions is inappropriate and uninformed, unless you can very
solidly back them up.
Here's another issue. There _was_ a response from a European fencer
earlier in this thread, but your response to him was rude and offensive,
and did not address _anything_ he had said. Instead, you chose to insult
him. And not for anything he said, but for his _spelling_, when
English is _not_ his first language. If you were to take _spelling_ and
perfect grammer as the basis for judging a person's intelligence or
ability to comment on a situation in which s/he has experience, look at
at some of the postings in this newsgroup (no offense intended, to
_any_ of you. I'm equally guilty). As for "third grade level"- I would say
that is about the level of your maturity. If you truly wanted a
discussion about elitism, or European v. American fencing, or the
perception of fencing in either place, you would listen to peoples
responses, think about them, and then respond, rather than immediately
reacting to perceived insults.
I am not going to respond any more to this thread in this forum. Flaming
is just stupid, imho. If there's a serious discussion, I'd love to
participate. But this is not. If I have inadvertently offended anyone, or
if any of you have issues with what I have said, I would be happy to
discuss them with you. But I do not want to get into a huge fight in the
newsgroup.
I'll shut up now-
Abby
Bert van de Flier
fenc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> Obviously you can read (At least at a third grade level. Your spelling is so
> horrible it makes reading and understanding your arguments dfficult).
I happen to know Casper de Swarte to whom you are referring. Like me, he is Dutch You
can address people like us usually in French (very appropriate for fencing), German,
English and of course Dutch. We are usually better in the latter.
I can look through your typo's, but wonder in which other languages than english(US)
you can insult us.
From my contacts with US Fencers I know that people like you " fencer-18 Matt" are an
absolute minority in your country.
Almost all of the fencers and officials I meet are friendly people that are very
dedicated to their sport.
And the few that are not........ well; we have our own fencer18's in our own countries
too.
It is a pity that you do not have the courage to give your full name; I know a few
Matt's in the fencing scene and now I wonder whether it is one of them. But when I
think longer about it I don't believe I know you and frankly; I like to keep it that
way.
In your original article that caused this thread you stated:
>> Pretty soon American Fencers will be taking home more golds than you Europeans.
Maybe then you'll all shut the hell up and give American fencing the credit it
deserves.<< (by the way, the correct spelling is gold's)
In all reality; that's wishful thinking. What makes you think that 1 country can win
more gold medals alone than 44 different countries. Plus the fact that you have to
make sure that Koreans, Australians, Cubans, Canadians and Chinese do not spoil your
quest. They do not moan like you "fencer18" but just train very very hard. Like many
of your compatriots are already doing and some of them with excellent results e.g. on
ladies foil and saber both genders.
So stop moaning; train hard and do not expect us to think that American fencing
deserves any more (or less) credit than fencing in any other part of the world. Your
fellow USFA members do not expect that either!
And rest assured: European fencing will have to work harder and harder to keep it's
dominance as a continent.
Gradually we are losing some ground to other continents, but that is only very good
for fencing as a sport.
Why should we have a problem with it? If a German does not win, the DFB does not care
whether the gold goes to Rome
Rochester or Rio de Janeiro. Maybe on an individual level one has his favourites, but
as far as Federation policy is concerned they could not care less.
Fencer18, I hope that you will see the light, or that you stop fencing. Your
federation does not deserve people with your attitude.
Bert van de Flier
mr_fo...@my-dejanews.com
to make a practice dummy (Without using an American fencer as Claus
suggested) I think that we (Europeans and Americans) should swallow our pride
and realize that this arguing back and forth does nothing for fencing as a
sport, or for this newsgroup. I think we should all just move on.
Matt (Oh no, another one)
mr_fo...@my-dejanews.com
alone and ignore it for all eternity. Although I don't agree with his
reasoning for _everything_ I do agree with some of what Fencer18 has to say
(He does need to work on how he presents his ideas, though). I also disagree
with Bert's comments about Fencer18's, (Sigh) Matt's, dedication to his
sport. If you get past all of the weak arguments about fencing in Europe vs.
America, it does seem that he is extremely dedicated to his sport. Look at
what he says about starting his club and getting it to become a team. That
sounds like dedication to me. Look also at his motives behind his argument
(However invalid it may be). He has perceived an insult to his country's
fencing ability. Obviously he feels that fencing in America is not doing as
well as it could because of a perceived lack of recognition. I would think
that only a person who is very dedicated to his or her sport would want it to
gain more recognition in their culture. (For that reason, and that reason
alone, I salute this individual) I think, Bert, you're barking up the wrong
tree when you choose to attack this person's dedication to his sport. In
fact, it brings a tear to my eye. (No, not really. I'm just trying to add
some levity to this grim subject)
Well, thank you for letting me get on my soap box. I hope you all understand
that I have no desire to continue in this thread. These comments were not
meant to provoke any further arguments. Thanks,
Matt (Why do I have the feeling that all Matt's are now going to be shunned
in the fencing world? Just in defence of the name, we're not all bad :-)
fenc...@my-dejanews.com
and, therefore, in this forum, I'm going to give you all what you want and
never write in this group again. But, before I go, for any of you who would
like to break out a Spanish to English (Or to some other language)
dictionary, Megustaria dar una "Vete a la mierda" a todos mis oponentes en
este discurso. Espero que vos encontrare en el "piste" en el futuro.
Fencer18
mary anne walker
It is somewhat tacky to criticize someone's spelling (typing) on the
newsgroup, especially, when it seems probable that they are writing in a
language that is not their native tongue. Casper's comments were
intelligible despite the errors, and it is clear that you are ranting
enthusiastically without being able to conduct a civil discussion.
Please, slow down, take a deep breath, and open your mind to other
points of view. Your comments about people's patriotism, and your
name-calling are some of the things that give people from other nations
justification for their distaste for Americans. You may or may not have
some valid points for discussion about changes that need to be made in
our sport, on both sides of the pond, but the inflammatory nature of
your postings have the personality of a troll (in the internet sense,
rather than the creature under the bridge in fairy tales).
--
Until next time,
Mary Anne Walker
************************************************************
I don't wait for moods. You accomplish nothing if you do that. Your
mind must know it has got to get down to earth. --Pearl S. Buck
To live is so startling it leaves little time for anything else. --E.
Dickinson
Nothing risque, nothing gained. --Alexander Woollcott
CamFive29
Matt (Why do I have the feeling that all Matt's are now going to be shunned
in the fencing world? Just in defence of the name, we're not all bad :-)
<<
That is precisely why I always sign off as:
Matt
Camf...@aol.com
:)
sab...@my-dejanews.com
bj...@cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:
> In article <7gqh0k$dr4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, fenc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > this trend should stop. It sickens me that another American fencer would
> > take such an apathetic attitude towards insults to his country.
>
> The truth is never an insult to an honorable man. Americans have an
> abysmal fencing record. The manful thing to do is not to whine about why
> it may be the case, but to work to change the record.
>
> --
Jeez Bryan, what's this about "work?" I liked your "breed more fencers"
answer better--sounded like more fun.
LOL
Mark Ray
aka "sabreur"
Simon Summerfield
Personally, I wouldn't highlight the AOL thing. Being a Matt
is bad enough without compounding the problem <...grin...>
Simon.
Zebee Johnstone
sab...@my-dejanews.com <sab...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>Jeez Bryan, what's this about "work?" I liked your "breed more fencers"
>answer better--sounded like more fun.
Yes? So how do you wire up your "sword" and I bet a hard parry
brings tears to the eyes!
Zebee
sab...@my-dejanews.com
Zebee,
I'm a sabre fencer, so I don't have to wire up my "sword." And you have to
know that in modern sabre, most parries are taken with avoidance, rather than
the "blade," so that takes care of that....
On the other hand, I suppose that parrying with avoidance in the context of
this discussion probably obviates the question of breeding more fencers....
I think I should quit now, before I get too deep into this.... another parry
by avoidance.
LOL again,
mr_fo...@my-dejanews.com
Simon Summerfield <sim...@asis.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> Personally, I wouldn't highlight the AOL thing. Being a Matt
> is bad enough without compounding the problem <...grin...>
> Simon.
Hey, them's fightin' words.
Matt
--
If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the bodies of your
enemies floating by. (Chinese proverb)
mr_fo...@my-dejanews.com
eternity. Right then. Very well. Carry on.
Casper
fenc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Megustaria dar una "Vete a la mierda" a todos mis oponentes en
> este discurso. Espero que vos encontrare en el "piste" en el futuro.
>
>
Finally, some words of wisdom from Fencer18.
BTW, to the rest of you: I am touched by all the support :-)
--
-----------------------------------------------------
When Walking on thin ice you might as well dance
Casper de Swarte
Fencing Foundation Groningen
C.de....@bioledu.rug.nl
---------------------------------------------------------
mr_fo...@my-dejanews.com
Casper <C.de....@bioledu.rug.nl> wrote:
>
>
> fenc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > Megustaria dar una "Vete a la mierda" a todos mis oponentes en
> > este discurso. Espero que vos encontrare en el "piste" en el futuro.
> Finally, some words of wisdom from Fencer18.
>
> BTW, to the rest of you: I am touched by all the support :-)
Errrrrrghhhhh. Okay, this will be my last post in this thread (I'm only
posting now because this childish behavior is amazing and the only reason I'm
reading this thread still is because, there's not much else going on).
Casper! Good god, man. Let it go. There is a certain etiquette for winning
an argument. It's responses like these that keep them going. Just let it
die, man. Be the bigger person in this argument. Very bad form. Very bad
form, indeed. if this were a fencing bout this would ba a "Cardable"
offense.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- If you sit by the river long enough, you will see the bodies of your
CamFive29
is bad enough without compounding the problem <...grin...>
Simon.
<<
lol
--Matt
MattyF...@hotbot.com
how's that? better?
Fat boy Ed
fenc...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Well, seeing as I will only get the support of the very few in this group,
> and, therefore, in this forum, I'm going to give you all what you want and
> never write in this group again. But, before I go, for any of you who would
> like to break out a Spanish to English (Or to some other language)
> dictionary, Megustaria dar una "Vete a la mierda" a todos mis oponentes en
> este discurso. Espero que vos encontrare en el "piste" en el futuro.
>
> Fencer18
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Fencer 18
Tu eres uno de los mas grandes pendejo idioatas de toda la historia de el
mundo. No solamente pudes hacerte un idiota total en Ingles pero te atreves a
hacerlo tambien en el bello idioma de mi juventud. Todo esto se pudo desacer
con el simple decir que tus opiniones estaban en error, pero NOOOOOO. Como tu
dijiste---vete mucho al diablo.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fencer 18
You have got to be one of the biggest dumbshits in the history of of the
world. Not only have you made an ass of yourself in English, But you dare to
attempt to use the
glorious language of my youth. All of this crap could have been avoided had you
only recanted your poorly worded opinions,But noooo. As you said in ( your
horrible, horrible butchering of my language) in your last post ------Eat s**t
and die.
Edilberto Vazquez Zamarripa
Jos & Barry Hofmans-Clark
>
> CamFive29 <camf...@aol.com> writes:
>
> >A little perspective. At Division 1 Nationals in South Bend, a junior men's
> >foil fencer won. A junior took 3rd. In Europe, that would be unthinkable. A
> >junior winning the national title?!? What does that say about American
> >fencing?
>
S'cse me
A Junior currently leads the rankings at Epee in GB
CamFive29
A Junior currently leads the rankings at Epee in GB
<<
And a Cadet MF fencer leads the senior rankings in Canada. But, my I ask,
where are the Canadian, Great Britian and American results on the international
arena?!
--Matt
MattyF...@hotbot.com
Fredrick the Great
> *sheesh* what provoked THAT tirade? while i've met some european
> fencers who were snobs, i've also met some who were perfectly lovely
> people, and extremely hospitable.....just like people everywhere...some
> good some bad.....
Yeah... I've even met some American fencers that were snobs, extremely rare
breed though, I might add. The greatest majority of fencers I have met the
last 2.5 years (and 28 tournaments) were very personable and good natured
even after just pounding the living daylights out of me on the strip. This
factor has really made competitions fun for me personally, even if I don't
have a particularly good event that day.
By the way, Mary Anne... I saw your name on last years South East
Sectionals results. Will you be making the trip to Tampa for Sectionals
coming up in two weeks?? Just curious... I'd just like to put a face to
the name. I am helping to set up Friday, fencing Foil and Sabre on
Saturday and will be directing on Sunday. Hope to see you there and say,
'Hi".
-)------- Fredrick the Great -------(-