Lefty foil techniques (on righties)
Bryan Tso Jones
Greetings and fair salutations all, yet once again! I have not been
keeping on this newsgroup as of late, so I am unsure of whether this topic
has been discussed before. Most likely, it probably has.
Now for the question...Does anyone have particular attacks they
enjoy using on right-handed fencers (and vice-versa...right-handed folks,
please comment! :) ). The strategy is somewhat the same between right
and left handed fencers, so any and all wise words will be gladly
hearkened to!
The humble Mr. Tso.
Mary Ellen Curtin
> ...Does anyone have particular attacks they
>enjoy using on right-handed fencers (and vice-versa...right-handed folks,
>please comment! :) ). The strategy is somewhat the same between right
>and left handed fencers, so any and all wise words will be gladly
>hearkened to!
I make no promises about wisdom, but ...
I am right-handed, but I enjoy fencing lefties, especially in epee. I
have no special tactics for epee, though; it just seems so convenient to
have my opponent's hand and arm right there where I never have to deviate
even the slightest degree from my sixte line to go after them!
I have found the following observations and tactics useful in foil,
however:
Observation #1. Inexperienced and ill-trained lefties tend to turn
more sideways in the en-garde position, exposing their backs and
flanks to attacks and ripostes which require little angulation.
Observation #2. Left-handed fencers have generally gotten a lot of
touches making parry-four ripostes, since they oppose a strong
parry 4 against the right-handed opponent's weaker parry 6.
This tends to make them easier to feint into an excessive 4 parry,
and therefore easier to hit in 6 or 8. On the other hand, attacks
that finish in the 4 line have to be much better prepared and
timed.
The above observations do not generally apply to right-handed fencers.
However, the items below should translate to lefty-righty bouts.
Observation #3. The flank is much more a factor in lefty-righty bouts
than in bouts between same-handed fencers. Many fencers are strong
in defending 4 and 6, but weak in 8. Of the fencers who are strong
in 8, some are weak in 6. Be sure to evaluate all three points
of this triangle.
Tactic #1. Prepare attacks with a press in 4 on the opponent's guard 6.
Set up the ultimate scoring attack by following the press with a
second-intention disengage attack to 4. If you can score on this,
that's fine, but the main purpose is to keep the opponent thinking
about the 6 and 4 lines. Then score by following the press with
a disengage attack to 8.
Tactic #2. Alternate flying beat-cutover attacks to the opponent's
4 line with simple beat attacks to flank (or 6 if it's available).
Tactic #3. If the opponent is blocking flank attacks with 8 or
(especially) 2 parries, set up a series of false attacks with
feints in 4 and disengages to 8. Then score by feinting 4 and
making a wide double' through 8 and back to 4.
Tactic #4. When attacked in 4, make flying ripostes into the opponent's
4 line. Also use this to attack the opponent's preparation. When
the distance is close, use an exaggerated angulation to get around
the opponent's attempted parry. If the opponent responds by parrying
farther and farther across his body, feint the cutover and go
straight for the open line instead.
Well, those are a few of the things that work for me (or against me, in
some cases). I look forward to seeing other people's suggestions.
Dirk Goldgar
internet: <p01...@psilink.com>
postal: 9 Titus Mill Rd., Pennington, NJ 08534, USA
Alban-barazi Wood
: Greetings and fair salutations all, yet once again! I have not been
Mary Ellen Curtin
[snip]
>Another useful move is the parry of prime(one) or nouvieme(nine) [...]
Pardon my ignorance, but what the heck is neuvieme???
Martin Brown
Another useful move is the parry of prime(one) or nouvieme(nine) followed by a cut over and flick to the shoulder. This move looks really fancy but takes a long time to master especially the flick. It also has the advantage that it can be used as you're running backwards.
The last move I'll suggest although it is an ugly move is another form of the cutover. You engage weapons and apply pressure so that you are in quarte. When you feel back pressure cut under and break your arm. Your hand should be in front of your belly with your foil or epee pointing at your opponents belly. Following the cut under and arm break take step forwards fast and thrust to the opponents belly. It looks terrible but I find I have had tremendous success against lefties, although the arm is broken and priority is lost you end up so close that you either hit your opponent or the fight is stopped as the fighters are too close, so you are covered both ways. It is effective as most people find it hard to fight at close quarters and as you attack anticipating a corps a corps fight you have the advantage.
Hope this helps, I personally would try to practice the beat low and try to expand on it. Introduce one-two's, high-low's and any form of compound attack to bring you within striking distance. Also lastly if a leftie keeps on hitting you with one move, remember that move will work just as good against him. A person with a favourite attack is not so good at defending against it. Oh yes, I don't know if I got all the spelling correcr especially nouvieme, so be nice!!
See ya later,
Martin Brown
Jessie Micales
>Dirk Goldgar
I always thought parry 9 was a joking way to refer to a retreat!
Jessie A. Micales
jmic...@facstaff.wisc.edu
U.S. Forest Products Laboratory
Durendal Fencing Club
JAMES RICHARD SHOBLOCK
k.com> writes:
>Martin Brown <cla...@ccsun.strath.ac.uk> writes:
>[snip]
>>Another useful move is the parry of prime(one) or nouvieme(nine) [...]
>
>Pardon my ignorance, but what the heck is neuvieme???
>
with your arm up and the blade pointed downward, but it's behind your back.
It's not really used very much in modern fencing, which is why you probably
never heard of it.
Jim
Morgan Burke
|> Martin Brown <cla...@ccsun.strath.ac.uk> writes:
|> [snip]
|> >Another useful move is the parry of prime(one) or nouvieme(nine) [...]
|>
|> Pardon my ignorance, but what the heck is neuvieme???
I've always understood ninth to be a block of a cut from behind (for
example, blocking the riposte after passing in sabre). The weapon
is held over the head with the blade running down the spine.
I doubt that is what Martin had in mind, however.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Morgan Burke
hip/flank, lower back, lead shoulder blade, armpit (1" strip between
bicep and pectoral).
- Develop strong parries & ripostes from sixte, octave, and seconde
to cover all of these. Exploit weak defence in these lines with
feint to quarte. Exploit strong seconde parries/binds with feint
to hip.
- Keep a straight back against fencers who use flying sixte riposte
or cut-over to upper shoulder/back, and step in with simple
counter-attacks in response.
- Make use of quarte-counterquarte combination parries, as they take
the blade through octave and give better coverage of the flank than
quarte-sixte combinations.
When the opponent is in a neutral position, use direct and indirect
attacks into lines that are very close to his guard.
- This makes it hard for the opponent to judge the line (and therefore
the best parry) until late in the attack.
- Works well if you are inclined to oppose on the attack.
- Makes for VERY tight, fast disengages.
Many fencers will make judicious use of feints to open a line past the obstructing arm.
- Encourage this behaviour by obligingly chasing their blade while
maintaining safe distance. Alternate with simple, fast counter-attacks
as soon as the opponent begins a preparation.
- If you have the timing, stab-and-retreat stop hits also work well.
- Alternatively, don't chase the feints, maintain a solid sixte, and
when the opponent's blade ends up outside of yours, thrust with
opposition to the armpit/lead shoulder.
Engage in low quinte (ie. quarte but with pronated hand), then attack
with lateral cut-over to belly.
- This can be executed as a parry/riposte (esp. flying riposte)
combination, beat cut-over, or as a press attack.
- Alternate with engagement in quinte and direct attack with coule'
to shoulder/chest, and same with a feint of cut-over (ie. a quick
arm pump while engaged).
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Susan Mullhaupt
>I've always understood ninth to be a block of a cut from behind (for
>example, blocking the riposte after passing in sabre). The weapon
>is held over the head with the blade running down the spine.
>I doubt that is what Martin had in mind, however.
Selberg refers to this (in sabre) as 'seventh'. Conventional sabre
parries go from one through six. Most of the time, seconde and
prime are swept, and sixte is almost always part of a sucker move.
Neuvieme... never heard of that in sabre.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Jessie Micales
>>I've always understood ninth to be a block of a cut from behind (for
>>example, blocking the riposte after passing in sabre). The weapon
>>is held over the head with the blade running down the spine.
>>I doubt that is what Martin had in mind, however.
>Selberg refers to this (in sabre) as 'seventh'. Conventional sabre
>parries go from one through six. Most of the time, seconde and
>prime are swept, and sixte is almost always part of a sucker move.
This is also what I have been taught.
>Neuvieme... never heard of that in sabre.
or foil or epee for me!
>Later,
>Andrew Mullhaupt
I wrote an E-mail note to the original poster asking for an explanation
of parry 9. Hopefully he will enlighten us all!
Morgan Burke
Not to diss Selberg, but in my understanding parrying nomenclature is
universal across all weapons. You have four primary lines, in each of
which the hand can be pronated or supinated, for a total of 8 positions:
1: point low inside, hand pronated
2: point low outside, hand pronated
3: point high outside, hand pronated
4: point high inside, hand supinated
5: point high inside, hand pronated
6: point high outside, hand supinated
7: point low inside, hand supinated
8: point low outside, hand supinated
These eight positions are common to all weapons (although all 8 are not
actually used in every weapon -- eg. 7 and 8 are usually excepted from
sabre, 3 is usually excepted from foil and epee, 7 is sometimes excepted
from epee). For example, foil and sabre quinte both satisfy the above
definition of quinte, although they are used in quite different contexts.
Ditto for foil sixte and sabre sixte.
This implies that seventh in sabre would be much like seventh in foil
(and not very useful since there isn't any target down there that quarte
or prime couldn't cover better), or perhaps a move like prime, but with
the hand turned over and blade running down the forearm (again, of
dubious utility in the context of modern sabre).
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Andrew Mullhaupt
: In article <34j8ms$b...@ysics.physics.sunysb.edu>, mull...@mathlab.sunysb.edu (Susan Mullhaupt) writes:
: |> In article <34i8de$l...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> mor...@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke) writes:
: |>
: |> >I've always understood ninth to be a block of a cut from behind (for
: |> >example, blocking the riposte after passing in sabre). The weapon
: |> >is held over the head with the blade running down the spine.
: |> >I doubt that is what Martin had in mind, however.
: |>
: |> Selberg refers to this (in sabre) as 'seventh'. Conventional sabre
: |> parries go from one through six. Most of the time, seconde and
: |> prime are swept, and sixte is almost always part of a sucker move.
: |>
: |> Neuvieme... never heard of that in sabre.
: Not to diss Selberg, but in my understanding parrying nomenclature is
: universal across all weapons. You have four primary lines, in each of
: which the hand can be pronated or supinated, for a total of 8 positions:
No Morgan, sabre _is_ different. At least most conventions of sabre parries
have the Prime with hand at least shoulder high but Seconde with the
hand close to waist high. Sixte in sabre is _definitely_ and completely
different from Sixte in foil/Epee. Sixte in sabre is sort of the mirror
image of quinte - sabre sixte is a head parry but with the hand across
the body from quinte, i.e. right hander makes sixte with his hand to
the left of his face with the palm facing back over his left shoulder.
This is utterly distinct from sixte in foil/epee unless you are a very
unusual foilist/epeeist. Just as there is no point whatsoever to foil/epee
sixte in sabre, there is no point whatsoever to sabre sixte in foil/epee.
: For example, foil and sabre quinte both satisfy the above
: definition of quinte, although they are used in quite different contexts.
OK I'll stretch the point and allow the analogy between foil quinte and
sabre quinte, although the hand should be neither pronated nor supinated
for sabre quinte (sixte as well).
: Ditto for foil sixte and sabre sixte.
No. This is going too far. Sabre sixte is closer to foil quarte if anything.
Now of course anyone can invent and number any parries in any way they want.
But the tradition of sabre is not really following foil here, (although it
does in lots of other ways). For example, there are _two_ distinct tierce
positions respected by several authorities. One is definitely supinated
and the other is kind of pronated.
In case anyone is wondering, what sabre sixte is for is when you realize
that your (same handed) opponent has a predictable parry quarte/head riposte
so you cut to his quarte, and go sixte taking his riposte, from which you have
several good ripostes - direct back to chest, direct to outside arm (if the
guy is really awful), coupe to head, coupe to cheek, coupe to flank, coupe
to low point, and coupe/disengage (envelope) back to chest. As in all cases
where you launch an attack which you do not expect to land, you are relying
on profound weakness in your opponent's game. As usual, a lot of parries
is an indicator that at least one fencer (if not both fencers) is fencing
badly.
Theoretically, there might be situations where you just find that you
need sixte without having pre-meditated it. These situations are ones
which you will tend to avoid if you are good. Sixte is so easily deceived
that you should never consider it against a fencer with any kind of cuff
game. Breaking ground and going quinte is almost always preferable.
A final, 'structural' weakness of the sixte parry is that it cannot be
made as far forward as quinte. That alone is enough to make you wonder
if it ever 'naturally' arises.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Kerry Anderson
> Another useful move is the parry of prime(one) or nouvieme(nine) followed by a cut
Wow, a parry nine? I've been fencing for 16 years and I have NEVER heard of a parry
nine! Describe it to us. Are there any other obscure parries, that is parries beyond
eight?
Kerry Anderson
Edmonton, Alberta
Jessie Micales
>Kerry Anderson
>Edmonton, Alberta
Yes, there are quite a few of us wondering about that. I suspect, based on
the context of what he described, that he is referring to lifted septime
(7), which is similar to prime except the wrist is turned inwards instead
of outwards. Just a guess on my part.
Mike Buckley
>> cla...@ccsun.strath.ac.uk (Martin Brown) writes:
>>> Another useful move is the parry of prime(one) or
>>> nouvieme(nine) followed by
>> a cut
>> Wow, a parry nine? I've been fencing for 16 years and I have
>> NEVER heard of a parry nine! Describe it to us. Are there any
>> other obscure parries, that is parries beyond eight?
Jessie> Yes, there are quite a few of us wondering about that. I
Jessie> suspect, based on the context of what he described, that
Jessie> he is referring to lifted septime (7), which is similar to
Jessie> prime except the wrist is turned inwards instead of
Jessie> outwards. Just a guess on my part.
Well, this is the third independent source mention parry nine so I'm
tempted to believe him. I've only heard of it in reference to sabre.
As described to me, it is vertical, pointing down the back. It
protects the back against cuts. It follows naturally from five(head).
While unlikely to be useful in modern competition (especially with the
death of fleche and hence passing ;-), I can imagine uses for this.
Anyone with a more authoritative answer?
--
-- Mike Buckley
Randell Jesup
>Engage in low quinte (ie. quarte but with pronated hand), then attack
>with lateral cut-over to belly.
>
> - This can be executed as a parry/riposte (esp. flying riposte)
> combination, beat cut-over, or as a press attack.
>
> - Alternate with engagement in quinte and direct attack with coule'
> to shoulder/chest, and same with a feint of cut-over (ie. a quick
> arm pump while engaged).
This was a favorite of my old fencing master at RPI (Frank I-forget-
his-last-name, who was a student of Santelli back in the 40's/50's). He
was a lefty, and loved to nail you with a flick to the center of the
chest after a parry and a coule' (if I remember my terminology correctly;
this is taking the parry, sliding out to the tip and under it (by this
time he had his blade almost 90 degrees to the strip), and flicking into
your body). A low parry or a prime is needed to block it, but prime
is too slow, and the low parry has to be wide because of the flicking curve.
Plus (as per above) you can fake the coule' if they start picking up on
it, and hit them above the parry in the upper chest.
Man, my memory of terminology is really fading. I need to start
fencing again...
--
Randell Jesup, Scala US R&D
Randel...@scala.com
Ex-Commodore-Amiga Engineer, class of '94
#include <std/disclaimer>
Martian
==Well, this is the third independent source mention parry nine so I'm
==tempted to believe him. I've only heard of it in reference to sabre.
==As described to me, it is vertical, pointing down the back. It
==protects the back against cuts. It follows naturally from five(head).
I've heard of this (and seen demostrated) as a 'hanging parry 7'.
Perhaps some people call it parry 9.
Abigail.
Morgan Burke
|> Morgan Burke (mor...@sitka.triumf.ca) wrote:
|> : Not to diss Selberg, but in my understanding parrying nomenclature is
|> : universal across all weapons. You have four primary lines, in each of
|> : which the hand can be pronated or supinated, for a total of 8 positions:
|>
|> No Morgan, sabre _is_ different. At least most conventions of sabre parries
|> have the Prime with hand at least shoulder high but Seconde with the
|> hand close to waist high. Sixte in sabre is _definitely_ and completely
|> different from Sixte in foil/Epee. Sixte in sabre is sort of the mirror
|> image of quinte - sabre sixte is a head parry but with the hand across
|> the body from quinte, i.e. right hander makes sixte with his hand to
|> the left of his face with the palm facing back over his left shoulder.
|> This is utterly distinct from sixte in foil/epee unless you are a very
|> unusual foilist/epeeist. Just as there is no point whatsoever to foil/epee
|> sixte in sabre, there is no point whatsoever to sabre sixte in foil/epee.
I'm afraid you missed my point. The universality of the positions
only depends on the relation of the point to the guard and the
pronation of the hand. The position of the hand/arm does not come
into it at all. To turn these position into real parries, you must
choose an appropriate hand position and blade attitude as well. These
will vary depending on the target being covered and the type of attack
being blocked. As a result the set of useful parries vary widely from
weapon to weapon.
"Quinte" simply refers to the class of parries with the point high and
inside, and the back of the hand turned towards your face. This is
true of every variation of quinte in every weapon.
"Sixte" means the point is high and outside, with the palm turned
towards the face. This is true of every variation of sixte in every
weapon. Although sabre sixte has kinesthetic connections to quarte,
the two positions are opposite in the position of the point w.r.t. the
guard -- which is the only real distinction between quarte and sixte,
after all.
|> Now of course anyone can invent and number any parries in any way they want.
|> But the tradition of sabre is not really following foil here, (although it
|> does in lots of other ways). For example, there are _two_ distinct tierce
|> positions respected by several authorities. One is definitely supinated
|> and the other is kind of pronated.
There are distinct variations on EVERY position. For example, prime
can be executed with low hand and inline blade or high hand and nearly
vertical blade, or somewhere in between. Each variation rigorously
satisfies the definition of prime, although each is distinct and used
in different contexts. Sometimes there are several variations used in
a single weapon, sometimes only one; some positions are useless in
EVERY variation.
As for the tierces, one keeps the thumb inside (definitely supinated),
and the other keeps it on top. The latter is somewhat neutral, but
IMHO I'm still looking at the back of my hand (at least the back of my
thumb), and not the palm. The knuckle bow is never turned to the
inside as it would be in true supination, so it is reasonable to label
both of these positions as tierce. There will always be mild
ambiguity in these partially pro/supinated positions.
[discussion of sixte in sabre deleted]
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Andrew Mullhaupt
: |> have the Prime with hand at least shoulder high but Seconde with the
: |> hand close to waist high. Sixte in sabre is _definitely_ and completely
: |> different from Sixte in foil/Epee. Sixte in sabre is sort of the mirror
: |> image of quinte - sabre sixte is a head parry but with the hand across
: |> the body from quinte, i.e. right hander makes sixte with his hand to
: |> the left of his face with the palm facing back over his left shoulder.
: |> This is utterly distinct from sixte in foil/epee unless you are a very
: |> unusual foilist/epeeist. Just as there is no point whatsoever to foil/epee
: |> sixte in sabre, there is no point whatsoever to sabre sixte in foil/epee.
: I'm afraid you missed my point. The universality of the positions
: only depends on the relation of the point to the guard and the
: pronation of the hand. The position of the hand/arm does not come
: into it at all. To turn these position into real parries, you must
: choose an appropriate hand position and blade attitude as well. These
: will vary depending on the target being covered and the type of attack
: being blocked. As a result the set of useful parries vary widely from
: weapon to weapon.
Ah - so by pronation/supination you mean if the palm or the back of
the hand is turned toward your face. This is not what I thought these
meant. I thought supinated meant the wrist was bent one way and that
pronated meant bent the other way - specifically that if you stick
your arm straight out palm down, then supination raises the fingers
and pronation lowers them.
This is a bit different than if you can see the palm or back of the hand.
In (the usual) sabre tierce, you are _supinated_, but can see the back
of your hand. By this definition foil sixte is supinated but sabre
sixte is pronated just a little. You mustn't supinate sabre sixte
or else you do not parry with the cutting edge. In sabre, the blade
is weak not only in the upper third, but from side to side, so sabre
parries are only correct if the cutting edge is presented perpendicular
to the plane of the cut. (The maxim is to stop the opponent's blade
'with your thumb').
Sabre quarte is pronated, but foil quarte is supinated.
: "Quinte" simply refers to the class of parries with the point high and
: inside, and the back of the hand turned towards your face. This is
: true of every variation of quinte in every weapon.
This is true, but the sabre quinte is slightly supinated and I _think_
foil quinte is pronated.
: "Sixte" means the point is high and outside, with the palm turned
: towards the face. This is true of every variation of sixte in every
: weapon. Although sabre sixte has kinesthetic connections to quarte,
: the two positions are opposite in the position of the point w.r.t. the
: guard -- which is the only real distinction between quarte and sixte,
: after all.
It is a _very_ point-o-centric view in my opinion, to consider that the
only distinction between quarte and sixte is the position of the point.
In the Hungarian school, the parries seconde, tierce, quarte and quinte
are 'unexceptional' since the forearm remains it it's normal plane
more or less straight ahead from the elbow and shoulder. (Some people
might not see it this way but that's usually a sign that their quarte
is too deep). Prime and sixte are 'exceptional' since they remove
the forearm from this desirable position. This exceptional character
is what makes it almost necessary to use these parries in motion,
(or Prime as an invitation). The position of the forearm is much
less variable in foil in epee, so maybe this doesn't seem like
such a huge distinction. But the position of the forearm is so
important in sabre (like epee) that sixte is almost unmentioned
in sabre lessons and texts. It's like a parry from another planet.
But I can see where the confusion arises. I consulted my minor
Oxford, and it had no help for pronation/supination. Anyone really
know?
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
E Hauptman
Mullhaupt) writes:
In terms of fencing hand positions, supinated refers to palm up, and
pronated refers to palm down. In foil parry 6 is supinated, parry 3 is
pronated. Parry 2 is pronated, parry 7 is supinated. Of course there are
other differences between the parries, but this relates only to the final
hand position.
Morgan Burke
|> the hand is turned toward your face. This is not what I thought these
|> meant. I thought supinated meant the wrist was bent one way and that
|> pronated meant bent the other way - specifically that if you stick
|> your arm straight out palm down, then supination raises the fingers
|> and pronation lowers them.
Random House gives several definitions for supination, the third being:
"having the palmar surface (of the hand or forearm) upwards". There may
be some correlation with flexing of the wrist, but this is incidental.
"Upwards" can be loosely interpreted to mean turned towards the face, to
cover ambiguous cases where the hand is held somewhat vertically.
|> It is a _very_ point-o-centric view in my opinion, to consider that the
|> only distinction between quarte and sixte is the position of the point.
There are many distinctions in actual parries of quarte and
sixte, since these depend on a whole slew of variables that are often
weapon-dependent. As far as applying a label to an arbitrary supinated,
high-line position, however, the position of the point is the only
variable to consider.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
JELLIOTT4
I think you mean coupe' but your explanation was clear enough. My coach
gives lessons left, but fences right. He loves that shot from both sides.
He hits me with it every time! He can even verbally tell me what he is
going to do, then get en garde and still hit me without even a whisper of
blade contact from me. It is a pretty shot!
Where could one find a dictionary of fencing terms? The FAQ is inadequate
for competitive fencers, or even intermediate ones like myself!
Jay
Morgan Burke
|> Where could one find a dictionary of fencing terms? The FAQ is inadequate
|> for competitive fencers, or even intermediate ones like myself!
Morton, A-Z of Fencing (Antler, 1988?)
This is also a good historical reference.
How is the FAQ glossary inadequate? Are there missing terms? Are the definitions too brief? Vague? Wrong? Drop me some e-mail, and I'll do
what I can. If you are looking for detailed descriptions of techniques,
execution, or other training tips, then yes, the FAQ is inadequate, but
this is intentional. The FAQ is not a fencing manual, and I don't want
anybody to get the impression that they can learn to fence by reading it.
That's the job of a qualified coach.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Mr J Allen
Nathaniel Saul Strauss
Mr J Allen <mew...@zeus.mcc.ac.uk> wrote:
>Parry neuviene, or how ever you want to s[ell it, is a sixte elevated to guard against flick hits to the shoulder in foil. Well, not exactly six, but you get the idea...
Hm... I always learned that the parry you're describing is called parry
tierse (3). Could be wrong.
-Nate
Morgan Burke
|> In article <36rrjq$1...@yama.mcc.ac.uk>,
|> Mr J Allen <mew...@zeus.mcc.ac.uk> wrote:
|> >Parry neuviene, or how ever you want to s[ell it, is a sixte elevated
|> >to guard against flick hits to the shoulder in foil. Well, not exactly
|> >six, but you get the idea...
Sixte with an elevated hand is still a sixte in some (most?) schools, just
as an elevated prime is still a prime. This practice of calling a high
six a nine seems to originate from the cover of one particular fencing
manual, as far as I can tell. Somebody posted the author's name, but I
don't remember it. Does anybody know how widespread this definition of
nine is, compared to the other "behind the back" definition? Does it
come from a particular school of fencing, or is it an anomaly introduced
by some master/author and since spread by word of mouth? I haven't seen
enough mention of nine in the literature to get a good handle on it.
(although I definitely have seen the high sixte described -- as a sixte,
not a nine!)
|> Hm... I always learned that the parry you're describing is called parry
|> tierse (3). Could be wrong.
If the palm is turned down, it could be either tierce or quinte,
depending on the orientation of the blade.
-- Morgan Burke
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
Caroline Collins
mor...@sitka.triumf.ca "Morgan Burke" writes:
> |> Mr J Allen <mew...@zeus.mcc.ac.uk> wrote:
> |> >Parry neuviene, or how ever you want to s[ell it, is a sixte elevated
> |> >to guard against flick hits to the shoulder in foil. Well, not exactly
> |> >six, but you get the idea...
>
> Sixte with an elevated hand is still a sixte in some (most?) schools, just
> as an elevated prime is still a prime. This practice of calling a high
> six a nine seems to originate from the cover of one particular fencing
> manual, as far as I can tell. Somebody posted the author's name, but I
> don't remember it.
Probably "Theory, Methods and Exercises in Fencing" by Z. Wojciechowski
> Does anybody know how widespread this definition of
> nine is, compared to the other "behind the back" definition? Does it
> come from a particular school of fencing, or is it an anomaly introduced
> by some master/author and since spread by word of mouth? I haven't seen
> enough mention of nine in the literature to get a good handle on it.
> (although I definitely have seen the high sixte described -- as a sixte,
> not a nine!)
(Snip, snip)
> -- Morgan Burke
> mor...@sitka.triumf.ca
I've seen this parry in the Amateur Fencing Association (U.K.) Acheivement
Award Scheme, and seen Polish & Russian (Moscow Dynamo) coaches who teach it.
The Russians spoke of it casually, as if it were a normal part of any
fencer's experience.
The idea is that (like sixte) it is formed with a supinated hand, but (unlike
sixte) its action is entirely upward. The commonest use is in a quick, rather
forward parry-riposte, which might sometimes be phrased as a beat-counter
attack. (If there is only one light the phrasing doesn't matter much,
does it!)
Many coaches insist that this _is_ really just high sixte. I recall one
English coach who called it septime levee! (I'm sure there should be an
accent on levee, but this software won't quite do it.)
--
Caroline Collins
caro...@aardvark.demon.co.uk
Craig Constantine
was a position similar to looking at one's wristwatch. Palm more or less
towards your opponent, tip slightly down. A low or mid line parry from
right to left (for a righthander).
Am I insane? Or are there really this many different views of what nine is?
Craig J. Constantine [all IMHO]
cr...@ot.com
http://www.ot.com/~craig/home.html
--
Craig J. Constantine [all IMHO]
cr...@ot.com
http://www.ot.com/~craig/home.html