WHATS THE BEST PRO/SEMI PRO LEAGUE MODEL FOR THE SPORT OF ULTIMATE?
ulticritic
2)location of franchises?
3)when events would occur(time of season)?
4)schedule?
5)format(roster size)?
6) management
my answers would be
1)eight
2)atl, bos, seat, sanfran, austin, madison, colorado, ???
3)SUMMER
4)8 events on consecutive weekends hosted by each franchize with a 4
team format (each team attending 4 of said events)games played on same
stadum field amoungst a supersized tournament (with enough buyes and
night games scheduled to allow teams to watch the pro's play too).
5) smaller roster sizes would allow teams to play fewer (but maybe
longer) games and still get their fill with a 4 game weekend schedule
(i'd propose 16 man traveling squads.....and require 2 non playing
coaches(the only people allowed on sidelines). do timed games
increase the game pace with tighter constraints such that you have 3
hour rounds and games in the 30's. maybe even bring in the two point
line.
Personally, i think this uoa eights format would work great.......with
some possible tweeking? reducing the teams and rosters even further
(for reg. season events) would allow (more like require) less
resources to "put on the show". Now this isnt to say that teams in
the piggy back event (which would essentially be an instant fan and
consummer base), granted that the "show" is worth it, wouldnt be
getting their moneys worth. This way people would get to participate
AND watch THE BEST, bar none, ultimate competition there is. And even
with this uoa rule enforcement process you NOW have a product thats
actually watchable AND marketable.
TEAMS COULD REALLY USE THESE EVENTS TO STRENGTHEN THE LOCAL SCENE IN
THERE AREA WITH A MORE PROFESSIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT GEARED STRATEGY
IN EXPOSING IT. also, the more people that come out the more popcorn
and coke you sell.......which is where the real money is.
MAN how awsome it would be to have an 8's CLUB championship in
wilmington nc.......maybe in early spring.......and invite the 8 upa
quarter finalists from the previous year........also have a HUGE
subsequent event where teams use the winter league observer process.
you got a name for that?
Dascher
> 1)number of franchises?
> 2)location of franchises?
> my answers would be
> 1)eight
> 2)atl, bos, seat, sanfran, austin, madison, colorado, ???
> MAN how awsome it would be to have an 8's CLUB championship in
> wilmington nc.......maybe in early spring.......and invite the 8 upa
> quarter finalists from the previous year........also have a HUGE
> subsequent event where teams use the winter league observer process.
> you got a name for that?
The Wilmington 8s format is great. I would suggest increasing the
length of the season, ie: Larger regional tournaments of mixed
strength teams in late May and the first half of June. After a couple
weeks of 16 team tournaments have 8 team tournaments in some of the 8
cities you mentioned plus I would add New York and D.C. These 8 team
tournaments would be for several consecutive weekends and the invited
teams would be based on strength of the prelim tournaments and would
keep changing as the season went on. Teams would have opportunity
based on performance to move up in the level of tournament that they
attend based on how they did the week before. By the end of the
summer, a similar sectional, regional, and national club series would
held but initial seeding would be based off of the season's tournament
results which would provide, unlike the current club system's
tournaments, accurate data on the performance of a team during that
season.
Also to accommodate the sheer number of club teams out there, we have
a similarly structured system in two lower tiers of club competition,
like in British Club Football. At the end of the season, the top and
bottom three teams in each tier advance or are relegated. This would
promote tournaments to be properly run and all placement games to be
played.
Finally, ALL TOURNAMENTS should be run through the hosting city's
micro ultimate organization. They should be run according to a set of
standards established by a national governing body of Ultimate (UPA
perhaps?). And all tournaments need SPONSORSHIP. Sponsorship will be
what makes ultimate a professional sport (duh). There is a problem
currently where the only sponsors for ultimate are companies geared
towards the ultimate community. We are a very large demographic that
is sellable. The UPA should be pitching the ultimate demographic to
major corporations. Lets think, what would work:
-Beer. (We party and it is a proven fact that sports sell alcohol).
-Credit Cards. (Ultimate players are young, many college students
follow/play in club and a large portion of club players are just out
of college)
-Athletic Clothing. (Look at Five, VC, Spin, Breakmark.)
-Shoes. (Nike TD Speed is all that needs to be said. Nike don't even
need to advertise in ultimate to sell hundreds of cleats.)
The biggest problem with all I've said is that ultimate is not a
spectator sport. Creating a fan base should be the UPA's top
priority. The reason there are no fans is because of how easy it is
to get to the top level. ANYONE CAN PLAY CLUB. We need to separate
the elite. We also need to engage younger children. Every child in
America has played soccer, baseball, or football (if not all three)
since they could walk. Why not ultimate? There should be
recreational leagues for children, in elementary and middle schools.
This should be handle by local organizations who are under the UPA.
The NBA does not organize rec. or high school basketball leagues. The
UPA has too much on its plate to be effective in any one area. We
need a local/regional movement of well run Ultimate organizations. We
need those people to rent field space, to manage liability, and to
promote the sport to the parents of the children who will make
ultimate professional.
- D.
(wow, that was a rant and a half.)
Frank
> The biggest problem with all I've said is that ultimate is not a
> spectator sport. Creating a fan base should be the UPA's top
> priority.
> The reason there are no fans is because of how easy it is
> to get to the top level.
This is the second time I've heard this exact same argument this
weekend.
No, the reason there are no fans is because the game lacks
entertainment value.
It doesn't lack entertainment value because how easy it is to get to
the top level.
It lacks entertainment value because the top level has been
artificially kept diminished because of the low glass ceiling kept in
place by a variety of factors (all of which I've detailed ad nausea).
Meanwhile, every time we play 'schoops, passers by always stop and
watch. This is something I've never seen in 30 years of ultimate.
If you want spectators, play Dischoops. It's fun.
ulticritic
These 8 team
> tournaments would be for several consecutive weekends and the invited
> teams would be based on strength of the prelim tournaments and would
> keep changing as the season went on. Teams would have opportunity
> based on performance to move up in the level of tournament that they
> attend based on how they did the week before. By the end of the
> summer, a similar sectional, regional, and national club series would
> held but initial seeding would be based off of the season's tournament
> results which would provide, unlike the current club system's
> tournaments, accurate data on the performance of a team during that
> season.
nah, you got this mixed up with an open series format. entrance into
such a legaue would depend soley on the type of market(ultimate market
that is) these teams have in their local scenes AND it would HAVE to
be relegateed to controled comp in which JUST the best of the best
players/teams would be selected to compete. Not just any team can
work there way into the MLS. they have to prove they hava a local
market that has enouph intrest to SUSTAIN such a team/series event.
surely there are 8 teams out their that have proved this.
----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Also to accommodate the sheer number of club teams out there, we have
> a similarly structured system in two lower tiers of club competition,
> like in British Club Football. At the end of the season, the top and
> bottom three teams in each tier advance or are relegated. This would
> promote tournaments to be properly run and all placement games to be
> played.
again, i'm talkin about a pro league not just a modern version of the
upa.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Finally, ALL TOURNAMENTS should be run through the hosting city's
> micro ultimate organization. They should be run according to a set of
> standards established by a national governing body of Ultimate (UPA
> perhaps?). And all tournaments need SPONSORSHIP. Sponsorship will be
> what makes ultimate a professional sport (duh).
THIS is where i agree with you......its just that you have to be ALOT
more selective when it comes to team participation. The goal should
be to squeeze the best players out of the current talent pool AND
FEATURE THEM........not to dilute it further. and in reality there
are probably only 5 or 6 markets that would REALLY be worthy of being
awarded (or have the right to buy???) a franchise.......depending on
what the incentives were. Gettin the whole community involved (or
even being partial owners) is a GREAT idea.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a problem
> currently where the only sponsors for ultimate are companies geared
> towards the ultimate community. We are a very large demographic that
> is sellable. The UPA should be pitching the ultimate demographic to
> major corporations.
they are missing many key compontent to "their" product though. in no
particular order they are......
-competitive season is during the wrong time of year
-events are to big, spread out and overwhelming
-they use an archaic management system which renders the comp
unwatchable
---------------------------------------------------------
Lets think, what would work:
summer time, just best players/teams in reduced and concentrated
formats.......with modern arbitration systems.
------------------------------------------------
>
> -Beer. (We party and it is a proven fact that sports sell alcohol).
> -Credit Cards. (Ultimate players are young, many college students
> follow/play in club and a large portion of club players are just out
> of college)
> -Athletic Clothing. (Look at Five, VC, Spin, Breakmark.)
> -Shoes. (Nike TD Speed is all that needs to be said. Nike don't even
> need to advertise in ultimate to sell hundreds of cleats.)
food
----------------------------------
>
> The biggest problem with all I've said is that ultimate is not a
> spectator sport.
thats extreemly fixable
-----------------------------------------------------
Creating a fan base should be the UPA's top
> priority.
nope, they are obligated to the members/players
---------------------------------
The reason there are no fans is because of how easy it is
> to get to the top level. ANYONE CAN PLAY CLUB. We need to separate
> the elite.
YES......and then separate the elite of the elite from the elite. 8
teams of 15 with ringers form other teams equally distributed
throughout the league
------------------------------------------------------------------
We also need to engage younger children. Every child in
> America has played soccer, baseball, or football (if not all three)
> since they could walk.
oganize "punt, pass and kick" type disc related competition within the
school systems and have the finals at the local series event!!!!!
------------------------------------------------
Why not ultimate? There should be
> recreational leagues for children, in elementary and middle schools.
> This should be handle by local organizations who are under the UPA.
> The NBA does not organize rec. or high school basketball leagues. The
> UPA has too much on its plate to be effective in any one area. We
> need a local/regional movement of well run Ultimate organizations. We
> need those people to rent field space, to manage liability, and to
> promote the sport to the parents of the children who will make
> ultimate professional.
i think all that should be left up to the local communites......in the
end they are the ones that would profit/benefit from that effort. but
with a pro type team in the community its the kind of top down
approach that will balance out a bottom up one and make them both more
effective in marketing, promoting and exposing both the team AND the
sport. .
ulticritic
ok then, if this was a disc hoops league, with all the best ulti
players, how would you model it?
Frank
First off, I wouldn't take all the best Ulti players.
Dischoops has a really good way of exposing weakness so a lot of the
best Ulti players wouldn't make the grade.
Second, it depends on how much money I had to launch the league. If I
had the bankroll, I'd probably have a short season (number of games
baseball is 162, basketball 82, football 16) running weekends starting
in April with the League Championship culminating on the Fourth of
July after a 3 week single elimination bracket, one game per weekend.
With less money, compromises would have to be made on the total number
of venues over a season's time.
MLL spent around $30 million according to my latest research. Where
you going to get that kind of cabalinga? They made some of the back
with spectators and advertising and sponsorships but they ended up
losing their shirts.
blw
> MLL spent around $30 million according to my latest research. They made some of the back
> with spectators and advertising and sponsorships but they ended up losing their shirts.
Thank you, Frank, for being the first to speak some sense on this
thread. Money IS the issue. If money weren't important, we'd have a
pro team of every sport in every city. Todd, bless him, has been
spouting the same ideas for ten years now and has yet to demonstrate
any understanding of how the real sports world works. I'll explain
further...
Here are Todd's ideas:
1) eight franchises
2) franchises in atlanta, boston, seattle, san fran, austin, madison,
colorado, ??
3) events held in the SUMMER
4) 8 events on consecutive weekends hosted by each franchise with a 4
5) team format
6) each team attending 4 of said events
7) games played on same stadium field amongst a super-sized tournament
(with enough byes and
8) night games scheduled to allow teams to watch the pro's play too).
9) 16 man traveling squads and 2 non-playing coaches
10) timed games
Here are my calculations, off the cuff, based on these ideas.
8 franchises x 18 (players+coaches) = 144 Pros
4 teams play each weekend, = 3 traveling teams per weekend = 54
Travelers per weekend = 432 Person/Trips for the Season
Some of those trips will be driving, some will be flying.
Let's assume that the average plane ticket is $200 (you can get a
ticket from Seattle to Boston for $200, right?)
Let's assume that the average car trip is $30. (You can get a fill-up
at the gas station for $15, right?)
I'm going to assume half of the trips are flying. (Does this seem too
high? Can players drive Boulder to Boston on a regular basis?)
Half of 432 is 216. So, (216 x 30) + (216 x 200) = $49,680. Let's
assume we get the mother of all airline discounts and it's $45,000.
Stadium Rental, for 1 hr, is roughly 100 bucks per hour (averaging in
the cost of lights...I don't know what other cities are, but in
Seattle this could easily be $160-300 per hour).
8 weekends x 8 hours per day x 2 days per weekend x $100 rental per
hour = $12,800. Let's say we get a huge discount for some reason and
it's $10,000.
Uniforms are roughly $30-40 per person. That's 432 X 30 = another
$12,000. Forget it, let's assume some Ultimate company can pick up
that tab in return for advertising, so it's free.
Timed games requires 2 people per game. Plus, I am going to go out on
a limb and say that Todd wants 2 refs per game. Let's say people will
work for $5 per hour. That's another $2-3,000, and that is the bare
minimum of people staffing. If you want to sell concessions, you are
going to need staff, janitors, etc. Maybe people will volunteer to
clean up trash for free, week after week. Call it $4,000, then. Dang
it, I forgot that you need to have medical staff on hand. Call it
$10,000 for the 8 weeks, conservatively. Bare bones crews and lots of
volunteers (the volunteers may have to buy tickets as well).
You are absolutely going to need a professional league commissioner. I
don't care how much Todd things organization is free...it just isn't.
Well, I can amend that...organization that is any good is not free.
Someone would volunteer, but after their 5th weekend traveling, when
their child gets sick, do you think they are going to keep
volunteering? Call it $4-5,000 for the league organizer.
Are you going to pay the players? Let's say you give them no pay, but
you give them a per diem for food costs. They aren't really pros, but
whatever, maybe they'll do it. 54 people every weekend needing $30
each to eat for 3 days (that should be plenty, right?). That's 54 x 30
x 8 = another $12,000.
Add it all up. I'm going to ballpark it and say that for less than
$100,000 you could have your own pro Ultimate league.
IF you get huge discounts
IF you can find 'pros' that you don't have to pay [note: you will NOT
get the world's best players without paying]
IF you can find lots of volunteers with only one organizer
But, but, BUT! You can sell tickets, concessions, and replica jerseys!
Bake sales! Highlight videos and game film! You can make some (a lot?
all? profit?) of that money back! If you want to make up some numbers
for what you might do, go ahead.
My point: For less than $100,000, Todd could actually have the league
he dreams about. That's less than a house, and since he contracts for
houses, and is a 'sell professed millionaire' then he has this much
money right? Problem solved!
The reality is, and Frank knows this too, obviously: Real pro leagues
are fantastically expensive. Most of them fail, and the investors lose
a ton of money. And real leagues are much, much, much more expensive
than this. Todd knows this, and yet he continually brings the same
tired ideas into the spotlight as if it is a total TRAVESTY that no
one has done this yet. The reality is that the business-man side of
Todd wouldn't touch this league with a ten-foot pole. He wants you to
do it. He wants the UPA to do it. But he has never made a single move,
beyond getting high and posting to RSD, that even looks like he would
know where to start or would put any of his own money into it. I don't
blame him...with the death rate of professional sports team in
America, I wouldn't invest $5 either.
But, this much is true: Todd is either being ignorant or purposefully
misleading when he writes this stuff. He has yet to show that he knows
anything that can't be learned on ESPN's commercials or that he has
read on RSD. Anyone want to jump into a sports-related business with
this guy?
Now:
A different league? Something that uses the existing teams, the
existing tournaments, and leverages the qualities that they already
have to make a more marketable event? That could be really
interesting. Those players are already putting tens of thousands of
dollars in travel costs and training time into their year. Someone
could build on that. Someone enterprising and with an understanding of
the scene could probably start something pretty cool.
Maybe the UPA could do this, but I'd be calling for the resignation of
any UPA Board Member that risked a single dollar that would otherwise
go to Youth, College, Online or Rules development on a dangerous
venture like a pro league.
Major League Lacrosse lost money. MLS has been struggling. The NBA is
even coming up on some relatively harder times. Wait til the massive
lawsuits hit the NFL, it's going to be like Philip Morris in shoulder-
pads. Those leagues are losing amounts of money that make the UPA's
operating budget look like a fairly successful concession stand at a
National League baseball stadium.
Todd, feel free to reply line-by-line and tell me where I am so
massively wrong that you are, in fact, some kind of sports-marketing
savant (and not just a dude with a joint on a couch with a keyboard).
blw
ps; Holy crabapple, I didn't even consider those super-sized
tournaments (like the 96-team tournament that Todd was throwing a few
years back) in which the non-pro teams would pay higher entry fees to
subsidize the pro teams so that the non-pros could then buy tickets to
watch the pros. Remember how happy people were to learn that Cultimate
was doing something similar to subsidize the top college teams? This
will be great!
jim
damn, toads response is gonna be a book on this one.
Frank
I'm laughing at Jim's response as I read this.
Ben, this is all true and I think you've even missed a few things.
Seeing as I've spent the past few years working for Dischoops, Inc.
I've already put together business plans to do exactly this and the
estimates are even much higher than Ben intimates here.
I would add though that the San Jose Stealth La Crosse team paid their
players around $5000 a season and that was a bit of a surprise to me
but I suspect a lot of Ultimate players wouldn't mind the low pay if
it meant playing in front of lots of fans or getting TV coverage.
Hell, they play for free now.
To rent out the HP Pavilion (where the stealth played) costs $50,000
and all the concessions go to the stadium, you don't get that money.
You're expected to pay for the $50,000 by selling seats and selling
airtime, but wait, if you're going to air this on your local Comcast
Regional sports network, chalk up another couple hundred grand for
that airtime and try to recoup that selling advertising.
So each team in the league will have to have a full staff of marketing
people to promote the events, sales people to sell the airtime,
stadium people to do the actual event management, each franchise will
need legal council to handle contracts, etc. and then you have
merchandising and support staff, etc. Each franchise is a massive
undertaking.
I believe that I had learned in my research that the San Jose
Earthquakes had spent over $20,000,000 and had only brought back
$5,000,000 in returns before they moved out of the area.
And all this with sports like La Crosse and Cricket that have a proven
spectator base.
You're going to invest even as low as $1,000,000 per franchise on a
sport that has no spectators?
Look at the UFL that just started and only has 4 teams (and empty
stadiums; the video of them playing at ATT Park showed only a few
thousand fans). You had people from AOL and Google throw in a ton of
money (guesses anyone) and they lost their asses. How many seasons
before the UFL folds? And this with your favorite spectator sport
Todd, Football.
Not only do you have to have a sound business plan with a viable
product, you have to have investors with extremely deep pockets so
there is some cushion for the lean times. No one is going to put in
all their money at once until they see some rational path to a return
on their investment.
I doubt that you could get any kind of semi-league going for only
$100,000.
Really Todd, get some Business Plan software and install it on your PC
and start working the numbers. Are these franchises going to run
themselves organically? Not only to you need each franchise to be run
professionally, but you're going to want to impose standards and
regulations to makes sure they all operate within your specifications
(just like when you buy a Quiznos you have to abide by their policies
and guidelines) to make sure you have a quality product.
ulticritic
>
> damn, toads response is gonna be a book on this one
i did have a pretty length response but it didnt go thru. fuck doin
it again. I will say that ultimate can be vastely inproved to the
point where the "fake it till ya make it" philosophy can be used. I
think its just a matter of tweeking both events and formats and work
on "catoring to the would be fans" with a quality over quanity
approach. Puttin the elite summertime events together into some kind
of a series seems such the no brainer too BUT, just as those events
have replaced the coveted events of yester year, so too will the
present ones be displaced. I say start fresh with a whole new series,
a whole new theme and a whole new vision. Not saying ya cant work
with what ya got but if you are gonna start somthing new ya might as
well customize it so that the entertainment value and overall effect
(which is essentially to expose ultimate right?) are maximized. so
what i'm talking about is a low cost, fake it til ya make it
scenerio. the fact that local community organizations like buda would
own franchises and control events would just create an envioronment in
which EVERYBODY had a stake in the success of the league. And the
great part of it for the elite players is that this will be an even
MORE condensed and concentrated pool of talent that it would be even
more competitive and therefor more enjoyable to the elite of the
elite. I think ben places too much emphisis on moneyu too. money
isnt a problem for todays events and all we are talking about is
adding a modest reffing expense in for 8 games out of a weekend.
ulticritic
>
> Maybe the UPA could do this, but I'd be calling for the resignation of
> any UPA Board Member that risked a single dollar that would otherwise
> go to Youth, College, Online or Rules development on a dangerous
> venture like a pro league.
this is actually the funniest part of bens post........WHO IS HE
TRYING TO KID HERE?????
FIRST OFF, if he dosent fully understand that its the ELITE that are
ALREADY gettin the lions share of upa resources and attention, AT THE
EXPENSE OF THE ONE AND DONE SECTIONALISTS, than hes a complete
dumbfuck or just in a serious state of denial
ALSO, correct me if i'm wrong but wasnt it BLW HIMSELF that requested
funds from OUR COLLECTIVE UPA OBSERVER FUND in order to pay HIS
observers for HIS ecc event that would ONLY DIRECTLY BENEFIT HIS elitE
ultimate buddies.
WHERE DOES HE GET THE BALLS????????
seems like, with this self rightious stance, he should have been
requesting resignations if they would have givin HIM money when he
requested it for his little elite event.
THING IS, i would have fully supported that financial allowance if you
guys had of only been trying some innovative stuff. but since you
werent it makes you quite LAME........and thats on top of you being a
fuckin HYPOCRATE.
ulticritic
> massively wrong that you are, in fact, some kind of sports-marketing
> savant (and not just a dude with a joint on a couch with a keyboard).
one dosent have to be a "savant" to easily grasp how ultimate is
"missing the boat" in soooooooooo many areas relating to the marketing
and presentation of the sport. search for the "so i have this friend"
and you will learn learn.
richarda...@gmail.com
People stop to watch dischoops because they don't know what it is.
They don't stop to watch ultimate because they already know what it
is. In your dream world where dischoops is king and ultimate is
marginalized, ultimate sould draw the same rubberneckers as dischoops
does today.
Frank
Dream on.
In my personal life, when people ask me what I do, I often mention
dischoops. When asked to describe it and I mention Ultimate, 70% of
the people have never heard of it.
The sport has been around for 40 years and people don't know what it
is.
Besides that Richard, as I've stated, people stopping to watch
Ultimate is something that I've never seen in 30 years of playing.
We've had crowds. People pulling up lawn chairs and taking in the
game when they see dischoops. I've NEVER seen this in ultimate.
ulticritic
>
> - Show quoted text -
your cover is blown frank
Frank
I just can't get over how ridiculous this sounds.
People don't sit and watch basketball or football games on TV because
'they've seen it before'.
Really? Do you realize how stupid this sounds?
Ultimate will have fans once Dischoops is popularized? Wow.
Frank
> your cover is blown frank
See, you guys had me all wrong. I'm not anti-ultimate, I'm pro-
ultimate.
The master plan was to popularize dischoops so that way, once
dischoops is king, Ultimate will become watchable.
Frank 'crazy like a fox' Huguenard.
Brilliant.
iton...@gmail.com
bil
this is not a slam frank thread. this is a, toad please explain how
your ideas translate into the real world thread - toad has just
avoided that entirely by slamming ben on a non-relevant point and by
claiming that an I-D10-T error lost his reply on the substantive
issues.
so stop slamming frank on this thread. don't get fooled by toad's
smoke and mirrors. and ask for toad accountability.
pizzaslot
Why do games always have to happen in the context of a tournament?
What Pro/semi-pro sport runs in this type of format, with multiple
games a day? Does the game format need to change to make it spectator/
television and semi-pro ready? Do you lengthen it to be more like
football? Or do you shorten to be more like volleyball? (which I
wouldn't consider a super successful pro sport) Part of the allure of
sports is matchups and rivalries. Tournaments tend to dilute that,
especially if you're not sure when/if your team will play their most
bitter rival.
Why Vikings, Packers, Bears, and Lions have a 2-day long tournament?
richarda...@gmail.com
> I just can't get over how ridiculous this sounds.
I can't get over the fact that we have to believe that dischoops has
so many fans because the inventor says so. I don't believe
infomercials, and I don't believe you.
> People don't sit and watch basketball or football games on TV because
> 'they've seen it before'.
"Passers by always stop and watch" things they haven't seen before or
things they're interested in watching. Ultimate is neither. Football
and basketball games are interesting to watch. Dischoops is
definitely new and questionably interesting.
> Really? Do you realize how stupid this sounds?
>
> Ultimate will have fans once Dischoops is popularized? Wow.
All I'm saying is ultimate would get more passerby interest if it
hadn't been seen in the same parks for 40 years and Dischoops is
enjoying that now. If you call passerby interest "fandom", as you
seem to, well, enjoy your delusion.
ulticritic
but the only thing to "account for" is referee expenses.......and if
mike g can absorb those costs with only 8 teams pitchin in the any
tourny should be able to handle management fees for 8 MEASLY GAMES
(thats with a four team format). The big draw would be that these 8
measly games would be getting played by 75 of the best 150 ultimate
players in the world. so now you have a whole new angle to "sell"
ultimate with... on a local level, A NATIONAL LEVEL (if successive
events were tied together) as well as to other interested teams.
shit, some people might travel just to watch and not even care about
playin.......but if it were me, i'd provide a large scale event with
TONS of teams to create a "base" and just fit in enough buys and night
games so everyone got to check out the "big boys" play.
so agan, its just a matter of some format/theme tweeks and A LOT of
focus on presentation (which with good resource attainment skills
would be easy to pull off on a low budget with some class). its
really just a matter of dressin up ultimate and the "puttin on a show"
to show her off.
ulticritic
>
> Why do games always have to happen in the context of a tournament?
they dont.....ultimate players have just been stigmatized. I think it
has somthing to do with everyone getting enough PT for ther travel
expenses and time. this is why i propose smaller formats with fewer
games(BUT LONGER) and fewer players(BUT BETTER). but i'm really just
talkin about this format for elite level teams in a league/series
senerio......somthing that might be marketed.
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> What Pro/semi-pro sport runs in this type of format, with multiple
> games a day?
volley ball??? tennis??? net games i guess
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Does the game format need to change to make it spectator/
> television and semi-pro ready?
YES, presently its TOO overwhelming and ther isnt anythin "special
about the games really......cause it seems there are zillions of em
goin on at once. make the formats so there are less games that mean
more. and chop roster sizes in half to get rid of the "fat" of the
elite pool of players.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Do you lengthen it to be more like
> football?
yes.....BUT you shorten all the time constraints.......and make it
stopped time.
----------------------------------------------------
Or do you shorten to be more like volleyball? (which I
> wouldn't consider a super successful pro sport) Part of the allure of
> sports is matchups and rivalries.
shorter games means more games. less (games) is more.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tournaments tend to dilute that,
> especially if you're not sure when/if your team will play their most
> bitter rival.
>
> Why Vikings, Packers, Bears, and Lions have a 2-day long tournament?
maybe because theyve learned how to present their sport in such a way
that people actually enjoy watching it.......ultimate(the upa) has yet
to do that
richarda...@gmail.com
> so stop slamming frank on this thread. don't get fooled by toad's
> smoke and mirrors. and ask for toad accountability.
Toad? Accountability? Real world? You try and all you get is a rant
on why it's everyone else's fault that his visions haven't
materialized.
ulticritic
this thread isnt about what "hasnt" happened......its about the
possibilities of what CAN happen