My Pull Sucks
Scoop
First person to help me get results will be sent a collectable
Nusantara Cup "Unleash the Freak" white game disc. I'll post results
later so the winner can send me their address.
Specifially, I can throw for distance but on a flat trajectory. The
trouble comes in when i try to incorporate distance with hang time. I
probably should throw more often (only twice a week now) but i live in
a city with limited open spaces. I already use the power grip. Related
problem is getting more float on my hucks. Frequently i grip and throw
harder, but the result is only a faster pull, which is actually worse.
Mike, you're said to have an outstanding pull. Any advice? In the
past, i've seen you advise folks to "grip the disc harder, put more
spin on it." Good advice, no doubt. But do you have something more
specific and detailed? Any approaches to teaching better long puts and
pulls that you use with your players?
Thanks
Mike Gerics
> past, i've seen you advise folks to "grip the disc harder, put more
> spin on it." Good advice, no doubt. But do you have something more
> specific and detailed? Any approaches to teaching better long puts and
> pulls that you use with your players?
do you know the dance steps to proper pulling????
everyone should.
but it takes a diagram to teach...or you being at disc golf on one of our
off nights from practice...
next...
don't swoop the disc in an arc...
don't move your wrist in a circular manner...(meaning, do not swing your arm
like a clock pendulum with your shoulder as the axis)
this ain't no ball golf swing thing where, at the driving range they teach
you to swing with that big ole curvie round club guide thing...
imagine you have a one inch pvc pipe...sliced down the middle so that you
have a long straight track that extends behind you and out in front.
reach back and stick the edge of the disc opposite of your hand into the
track behind you.
slide it down the track so that the disc travels in a straight path, then at
the end...where your wrist is about to break because you still have the edge
of the disc opposite of your hand still in the track....SNAP YOUR WRIST as
hard as you can like you are whipping someone with a wound up wet towel at
the pool when you were a little kid.
disc doesn't fly as far as you'd like?
lean down further so that you can put the disc further behind you in the
track.
grab the disc tighter like you are making a fist to punch someone in the
nose.
snap your wrist harder at the end.
one thing: throw the disc so that as it sails away from you...you ONLY see
the exact profile of the disc....if you see the top of the disc, or the
bottom of it....you ain't throwing it straight and true...and it is gonna
fade away one way or the other.
another thing: when you TURN your torso to 'put the disc behind you'...
someone standing in front of you ought to be able to SEE the disc the entire
time.
when you turn your torso to put the disc behind you....prior to ripping it
long...don't curve your arm so that the disc actually ends up being hidden
by your body or in a position that requires you to make the disc move in a
round path around your body in order to travel straight away from you.
know what i mean here? understand...Keep the disc in the track. it's a
straight line....
the pvc pipe track does not curve around your body....so don't let the disc
sneak back there forcing you to move the disc in a curved path towards it's
destination.
grab it tighter.
put it further back behind you....which means lean down and reach as your
torso turns....
snap your wrist harder...like you are popping someone with a wet towel.
come on...
don't know what i mean...?
find the warriors at Tune Up in chicago...
or at NC Sectionals...
or at MA Regionals...
there's always time to teach the dance step...and how to pull further.
awight.
MG
Dave Branick
will affect hang time, loft, etc, helping you place the disk in the
corner for traps, etc. ALso, if you have faster teammates who can run
down on the pull, that could be helpful. As my pull sucks as well, I
am also interested in seeing some advice on this. Good luck, Dave
Steve Sandvik
Get 5 or 10 lids and go out to a field and throw them a bunch. When you're
tripping over your arm, do it some more. If you know anyone who can pull
who has a few minutes to watch you some time, that will probably help more
than the combined wisdom (cough) of rsd, because instant feedback is
incredibly valuable.
The biggest thing is to move the disc in a straight line. Anything else is
just wasting your energy. Reach _straight_ back, and pull it _straight_
forward. But, you say you can throw far, just not high, so you can
probably do that part already. And, understand that, back in the days
before beveled edge golf discs, there were people who could throw a lid
well over half again the length of an ultimate field. So, it can be done.
The secret is what is, in the official jargon of disc sports, referred to
as "mung angle". It is the difference between the nose angle and the
vector you throw on. Too much mung up or down and you will either throw a
swilly air bounce pull or a reverse air bounce that dives into the ground.
This is not, presumably, what you had in mind.
This must be coupled with a slightly rising release. It will take time to
learn to do it. I do it by dropping my hand slightly when I reach back,
and pulling to my normal release point. Other people drop their backswing
and release high. This will take a fair amount of practice. You will
throw a lot of high throws that stall out and clingons that turn over to
the right and early releases that die out left. But keep practicing and it
*will* come.
In a headwind, it's relatively simple. No mung. Throw *just* higher than
straight. This should not be that hard to do. You will gain some distance
from hang time, and the disc will give you just a little stall, which will
help you with defensive positioning. Any mung will just allow the headwind
to abuse your throw.
In a tailwind, you actually want the nose of the disc to point slightly
down, not just below the release vector. This is because the tailwind will
actually lift the disc. (note that this assumes a tailwind faster than you
throw, not a wimpy 2 mph one.) You also want a slightly higher release
vector. The disc will get up, and ride down the wind. There's a fair
amount of precision in this, and you will probably go half mad trying to
get it. But it'll be worth it when you see one go out the back of the end
zone and still be 10 feet in the air. (of course, that's a brick, but it's
a lot easier to lose distance than to find it.)
The absolute best wind for pulling is a crosswind from your throwing hand
side. Put some hyzer on the disc (let the edge away from your hand dip),
and throw up. Your choice of mung angle will depend on the angle and
strength of the headwind. Remember that the object is not just to throw
far. A fast deep pull is probably less effective than one that goes only
45 yards but hangs up there forever. So you have to angle the disc so that
it travels down the field, but not too fast.
Part of this only works if you can throw hard. You will find that lids are
very slightly "unstable", that is they will precess slightly to the side of
your throwing hand. This allows you to release the disc with hyzer and
have it flatten out in flight. The harder you throw, the more precession
you will get, but the more spin you throw with, the less precession you
will get. This is important for cross wind pulls, as it will allow you to
use a comfortable release angle (hyzer releases afford a certain amount of
natural rise in the throwing motion) and still get the disc turned so that
the wind is beneath the flight plate.
Really, though, the only paragraph here you need is the first one. If you
do that, you'll be able to observe what works, and if you don't, no amount
of advice will get you a long pull.
Steve Sandvik
Mike Gerics
> Specifially, I can throw for distance but on a flat trajectory. The
> trouble comes in when i try to incorporate distance with hang time.
hang time?
what are you aiming at when you throw?
do you look down at the 7 on the far line and throw it to them?
or do you try to land the disc on top of the tree line above them?
is there power line or a field light post off in the distance behind the end
of the field?
those are the things that you should be aiming at.
look at them.
they are way higher and way above the 7 on the line down there.
throw your same flat throw...so that it is up even with the tops of the
trees...or even with the power lines...
sort of...put the disc on a flat line towards the object you pick out in the
distance.
don't stop throwing the disc harder and harder...until you HIT that thing
out in the distance.
Charles Kerr
bowling leg kick. What makes his pull so good (especially 8 or so years ago when
it was at its peak) is not the distance, but the height. It goes 70-80 yards, 80
feet high and comes down at such a sharp angle players were scared to catch it.
Still, without a doubt, the best pull I've ever seen in college ultimate. I'm
not really sure it can be taught though...
Charles
"Mike Gerics" <des...@digitizing4embroidery.com> wrote in message
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Garboj
that 5 things contributed most to his success:
1. Practice
2. Working out (Arm Strength)
3. Experience (he was 40)
4. Celebrex (you know that anti-inflammatory medication you take which
suddenly makes you start doing Tai-chi)
5. Having consumed less alcohol than many of the other participants.
Miriam Allersma
you throw
is key. Another way to visualize this is to imagine pulling on the
cord to start
a gas engine lawn mower.
Some of the craziest pulls I've seen are thrown by Graham Smith from
Michigan.
His go really high and come down at sick angles into the back corners
of the endzones. I don't think I've ever seen anyone attempt to catch
one. They are sort of like extremely angled inside out backhands.
-miriam
Danny
Grab some discs and go to a near by football field and practice
throwing field goals from as far out as you can. Work on form and see
what works for you.
D
Gino
strength has little to do with it. Getting your mid-section and your
legs into the motion correctly will do more for yardage than anything
else. Much like a good golf swing you will find that getting behind
your throw and following through and into the throw will add a lot to
your pull. Most people pay little attention to the follow through on
a pull and in fact it tells all.
Of course making sure you know which way the wind is blowing and
throwing into/with it correctly is also key.
"Mike Gerics" <des...@digitizing4embroidery.com> wrote in message news:<una011o...@corp.supernews.com>...
Scoop
Unfortunately, i don't play with many people who have strong throws,
so i need to work with this.
Will report back in a few weeks on my progress.
Thanks.
A fellow named paul emailed me the following:
Okay, so I must first say that I am not an amazing puller yet, but I
am getting pretty good. I only started trying to learn to pull like
2months ago, since the teams I play on have enough pullers. But, I had
a hard time finding out how to pull, and compiled a lot of input. So,
here is what has hslped me a lot and is an easy break down of how it
works taht you can understand and not jsut mimic.
A pull is REALLY different from other throws, until you approach it
this way, you'll just have a hard long throw=no good. So, the main
elements are spin, angle and grip. As for the grip, go with the least
amount of finger contact(release point) that you can hold tight and
throw hard. I only use 2 finger grip on pulls this minimizes the
friction at release and the wobble put in. You can use any grip
though, like power.
Now, for spin, you have to get an unbelievable amount on it. Practice
this by sitting on your couch or walking around doing this all the
time: slowly move your arm forward like a backhand and then snap your
hand, (not your arm) back as hard as you can. Do this until the disc
spins really fast, but does not come back at you. (This is also a good
time to learn to spin it on your finger, if you want to impress
people) If it doesn't come back then you are spinning without taking
off force=good. This will take a lot of practice, but can be done when
you aren't doing anything else, TV, etc.
Now, the angle. Try to follow me on this. You've seen huge flat hucks
that go high and come back and get no distance, You've seen angled(OI,
IO) hucks taht go really far, really fast, but have no hang. A good
pull combines these. A backhand pull, (which is all I am talking
about, Forehand, I got no idea) should start very fast, very far at an
inside out and then pull itself near the end into a flat throw that
will hang on the way down. This is amazing to watch and it is
accomplished by throwing a very hard moderate IO backhand with a LOT
of spin. The heavy spin will pull the angle back flat. You learn to do
this by applying the movement learned from the disc spinning exercise
to the release of the pull. Play with the amount of the IO and you
ahould get it right. Also, cross your feet over right before the
release to gain momentum.
So, hopefully this makes sense, e-mail me back if there is any part
that you don't understand. The main thing though is understand that
this will take practice to get to work.
Garboj
>strength has little to do with it.
REALLY???
What "things" involving distance are you talking about that don't benefit in a
big way from increased arm strength???
Frankly, I can't think of one sport involving propelling anything over distance
that doesn't benefits from strength training.
Sure, it is definitely true that technique is of primary and fundamental
importance in pulling a disc effectively, but once you have that, strength
training will DEFINITELY improve your DISTANCE and hangtime.
David
> Now, for spin, you have to get an unbelievable amount on it. Practice
> this by sitting on your couch or walking around doing this all the
> time: slowly move your arm forward like a backhand and then snap your
> hand, (not your arm) back as hard as you can. Do this until the disc
> spins really fast, but does not come back at you.
Sounds like a good exercise, but should this not read "... and then
snap your hand, FORWARD as hard as you can ..." ie away from you, as
you would with a real throw? Or does he really mean to snap your hand
back in the opposite direction as your arm is moving (toward you)?
This seems counter intuitive as you would not actually make that
motion during a pull. Or would you?
DS
Michael Randolph
degrees, goes out the sideline, and keeps rolling. By the time the
other team retrieves the disc, your defense is set, and they are
trapped on the downwind sideline. Very effective unless you put it
into the middle of the field and it gets knocked down, so don't do
that.
The other one I like is the HUGE sky roller. Insead of the previously
posted gigantic IO, send a righty backhand bender OI way up to the
left, with too much angle on it. This works best with a left to right
tailwind. Catching it coming in from 70 feet up is no good, and it
warps the disc then rolls to the back of the endzone on contact.
Remember, the other team CAN'T disc-check the bent disc, so they have
to straighten it out while your still sprinting down for the Callahan.
Also very effective. Only other thing, practice from endline to
endline with someone else instead of chasing your discs all over the
place, and remember to switch directions.
Practice makes perfect,
-MGR
P.S. - The cross-over step immediately before the plant foot goes down
is the most important part of utilizing your body potential. It puts
your hips in the right position. NO HOPPING
4 steps to start. (this is for righties)
First - left foot straight in front, start generating speed.
Second - right, directly in front of the left and angled to the left,
your body is now starting to wind up counterclockwise.
Third - continue the counterclockwise rotation and load up your upper
body by pulling the disc behind you on a straight line with the
target. Wrist is NOT curled up, Grip is tight, extend your left foot
BEHIND your right foot. Your hips should now be facing around 135°
left of your target, knees slightly bent, torso tilted forward
slightly to gain the required "mung" angle, arm extended behind you,
ready to uncoil. Note, your left arm should be positioned to keep
your shoulders locked as a unit. DO NOT reach your disc arm over or
under your off arm.
Fourth - EXPLODE off your left foot and PULL the disc on the straight
line, 25° mung angle, right at the top of the power pole that's behind
and to the right of the field. Your follow through should send you
sprinting down the field. If your momentum stops upon release, you
still have some power not going into the disc.
Once you get the timing, you should add a few steps in front to build
more momentum. Just look for small holes before you runup. Nothing
more embarassing than falling over during the pull, as your teammates
run down the field and can't figure out why the other team ain't
movin', D'OH.
Good Luck Huckers!!
Mike Gerics
> >As in most things involving distance you will find that your arm
> >strength has little to do with it.
sometwo replied:
> REALLY???
i write:
really. i got no arm strength at all...ain't never worked out...
and i like to throw the frisbee real far!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sometwo went on to write:
> What "things" involving distance are you talking about that don't benefit
in a
> big way from increased arm strength???
---uhm...distance distance, height distance, far distance,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Frankly, I can't think of one sport involving propelling anything over
distance
> that doesn't benefits from strength training.
---well...i've been throwing the disc far since we held competitions on
Hunting Ridge Rd when i was a kid....
far when i was in college...and still far today out of college...
and i ain't done no strength training ever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Sure, it is definitely true that technique is of primary and fundamental
> importance in pulling a disc effectively, but once you have that, strength
> training will DEFINITELY improve your DISTANCE and hangtime.
----it's technique.
Mike Gerics
Chicago Tune Up
NC Sectionals
MA Regionals
find the warriors....ask for the minister of information(DQ)
he can direct you to the teacher.
Gimpeltf
>and i like to throw the frisbee real far!
>Hunting Ridge Rd when i was a kid....
>far when i was in college...and still far today out of college...
>and i ain't done no strength training ever.
A) I've seen you Mike, and while I wouldn't compare your physique to my
wrestling friends, you're not particularly small or puny.
B) Do you think that all of that practice you did had no effect on your
strength? Do you think that the gains were solely from improved technique?
Going to the gym is not the only way to build up.
Gimp
Alan Hoyle
Pure strength isn't as important as technique. Once you have good
technique, strength training might improve your distance/pulls, but
without good form, your results won't be great no matter how strong
you are. For the vast majority of people, strength training isn't
going to improve your throws as much as spending the time throwing
instead.
-alan
--
Alan Hoyle - al...@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate: Ring of Fire - Spear
Gimpeltf
>technique, strength training might improve your distance/pulls, but
>without good form, your results won't be great no matter how strong
>you are. For the vast majority of people, strength training isn't
>going to improve your throws as much as spending the time throwing
>instead.
Nobody's arguing with that. Just pointing out that strength has a role and that
lack of gym appearances doesn't mean you don't have strength or that you won't
improve it.
Gimp
Mike Gerics
> A) I've seen you Mike, and while I wouldn't compare your physique to my
> wrestling friends, you're not particularly small or puny.
---well...i have "grown man strength" now...because i am a man...and a
daddy.
can't really include grown man strength when discussing throwing the frisbee
far....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> B) Do you think that all of that practice you did had no effect on your
> strength? Do you think that the gains were solely from improved technique?
---actually...yes...i think that my ability to throw far is all technique.
Mike Gerics
> Pull tips available at the following events:
>
> Chicago Tune Up
> NC Sectionals
> MA Regionals
Saturday after the final round has been reserved....by, certainly, the
smartest womens team in the land...
Dan
Mike, there is no question that technique is the most important
factor. But technique being equal, the stronger person will throw it
farther. I'm sure you can throw it far with your self proclaimed weak
arms...you could probably throw it farther if you'd hit the weight
room. Just look at golf. Similar mechanics (aside from the arcing
motion): torso torque, weight transfer, shoulder torque, etc. Until
recently, no golfers worked out because "its technique" not strength
was a widely held belief...until Tiger came along with technique and
strength. Now every player on tour is in the weight room with
personal trainers. And you know what? Almost every single player on
tour is driving the ball farther.
Technique makes your throws go from 40 yards long and 10 feet high
throws to 110 yards long and 80 feet high throws...strength training
takes them go from 110 and 80 to 120 and 100.
Gino Barasa
strength has little to do with distance. All other things being exactly
equal will a guy that is in shape hit the ball farther than a guy who is in
great shape?
The answer..... NO
Need proof?
John Daly
"Long" John is the longest hitter on the tour. That's not my opinion. It's
a fact. Go to PGA.com and look it up.
And, OBTW, John is a beer swilling, Fat Bag of Snacks.
Now, I am not going to say that a guy who is in shape will not be a better
all around golfer. He will. But it won't have anything to do with
distance. The fact that more PGA players are working out these days has to
do with the fact that Tiger, who is a freak of nature, works out and is in
great shape and so they all followed his lead. But point in fact it has not
helped them out. Phil Mikelson and David Duval are the 2 main guys that
have dropped pounds and made a point that they were working out more to
compete with Tiger Woods. Duval dropped right off the map since he started
working out. He was at one point the #1 ranked player on the tour. Phil,
while still ranking high on the money list, hasn't won a tournament of any
import since his work out and in fact stopped working out saying that it
hurt his game.
You mentioned that the PGA players are driving the ball farther these days.
True. But it has little to do with working out. The PGA itself has cited
technological advances in equipment, including drivers that have a
"Trampoline effect" on the ball and advances in the ball itself. They have
been busying themselves rewriting the rule books on what kind of advances
they will allow the players to use because of this increased distance. A
player that is in shape will see better results due to the fact that he
isn't winded after walking the course in 98 degree temp's for 4 days. On
Sunday when the out of shape player is about to blow a lung the player who
is more fit will have the edge. But not in driving distance.
But back to my point about arm strength. The guys I personally play with
that hit the ball the farthest all have very smooth swings and do not "swing
out of their shoes" as they say. Contrast this with all the guys I see who
try to kill the ball and end up with a nasty slice or duck hook and what you
have is technique being far more important that arm strength. In fact if
you have ever taken a lesson any PGA instructor will tell you that staying
behind the ball at impact, transfer of weight (as you said), and keeping
your arms/shoulders/torso and in line with each other are the main factors
to a well struck drive. Generating swing speed also has little to do with
arm strength. A proper swing doesn't require a lot of muscle. There is a
saying, "Let the club do the work." They always tell that to guys who try
to muscle the ball off the tee. They are saying this to get the guy to slow
down and swing smooth not hard.
Of the guys I play Ultimate with weekly I think it's fair to say that there
may only be one other guy who can pull it farther than me. (Brad if you are
keeping score I'm speaking of you) He is smaller than me, slightly, works
behind a desk. As far as I know he doesn't work out at all. How he get's
his disk to go so far I can't explain, but the dude can generate some major
spin and it just keeps going. I can pull it very far as well, farther than
most people I play with. But I can't bench over 175 lbs if I had to. (I
tried the other day and maxed out at 175. So it's not a guess.)
Arm strength will only be a factor after you have figured out how to throw
the disk properly. At that point I would hazard a guess that arm strength
may add another 10-20 yards at best. But until you get your form down you
can swill Red Bull and pump iron all you want and I'll still be yelling
"Short Pull!!!" when you step up.
Fetch
We were practicing pulls with about a 6-10mph wind going from almost
perfectly behind us. SO right there you are looking at the perfect
wind conditions because the winds were light enough and steady enough
to make it really amazing.
So pulling from the field goal (right hand) I made a hard inside out
pull for the 2:00 target on the field. It took off with the perfect
amount of force (as much as I could possibly put on it and spin) It
went 100 yards and kept going up the entire way. By the time it was
at the 100 yards mark,(and 30 yards out of bounds) for some reason it
kept going up and the team will vouch for this went as high as the
stadium lights, about 8-9 stories high. It hovered there for about
4-5 seconds. Then as the spin died off it died back to the left and
caught the wind and flew 12 feet past the 8th lane of the track.
Total distance was about 130 yards.
Why did the throw go far?
1) Wind of course
2) Force. Force is given from feet, legs, hips, stomach and arm. It
all has to be one smooth powerful motion.Most of the power comes from
your hips remember that, not your arm becasue your arm is propelled by
your hips motion.
3) Spin. And the only thing that can cause spin is your wrist snap at
the end. That is why the disc hovered for so long and that is what
creates the stability for the disc to not fade to soon.
That is all there is to throwing. The rest are simply angles. If you
throw a backhand make the side of the disc pointing away from you
point slightly down when you release it. This is key. Do not do this
in a way that bends your back either. The disc will flatten out and
then be straight where you want it to go. This is ectremely important
if you are throwing into the wind becasue the wind causes the disc
speed and spin to slow down and this angle will help to compensate.
As far as learning "the dance." Practice standing about 6[yards]
steps from the line maybe further. It is similar to javelin throwing.
In javelin they run and right at the end they do there little I think
it's like three or 5 step shuffle. In ultimate you need spped to help
transfer momentum to the hips which then goes to the arm and disc.
SO-----[for a right hander]
jog with the disc to your left somewhat near your chest being kind of
held by two hands. Then skip off of the your left foot and in air
rotate your body left head pointing towards target and then plant on
left foot and arm begins to com through at this point while you are
landing on your front [right] foot. Your front foot must rotate to
ensure hip power and hip rotation. release at the the 10:00 spot from
where your eyes are looking and the 11:00 O'clock spot from where head
is pointed.
FOLLOW through!!
Make sure arm continues swing and hips continue rotation all why you
are moving forward continuously. Then go whoop on D!
Fetch- Chico State
e-mail me my news of my victory.
Ted Nilson
the wrist. Normally in preparation for a backhand the wrist is bent until
the edge of the disc contacted the forearm. When pulling, I overlap the
edge of the disc on top of the forearm. A little practice and adjustment is
necessary because the disc is released at a different angle. Hope this
helps.
Ted
"Scoop" <bali_u...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7d3164c7.02090...@posting.google.com...
Dan
actually agreed with what I said towards the end...as for the rest,
read on.
"Gino Barasa" <Air...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:<sDud9.182760$eK6.5...@twister.austin.rr.com>...
> As a matter of fact I was referring to Golf, mostly, when I said that arm
> strength has little to do with distance. All other things being exactly
> equal will a guy that is in shape hit the ball farther than a guy who is in
> great shape?
>
> The answer..... NO
>
> Need proof?
>
> John Daly
This is very specious reasoning my friend...here's why:
1) Just because he's the longest hitter on tour and because he's out
of shape does not mean he wouldn't be even better off if he were in
shape. Can you honestly say that he wouldn't hit the ball farther if
he were in better shape? Answer: no.
2) JD is probably the strongest player on tour. Granted its masked
under a few layers of fat, but he still has a lot more stregth than
his competitors (with a few possible exeptions)
3) JD has a technically poor swing. Commentators, swing coaches,
pros, and other tour players all joke about how he powers through his
flawed swing and still drives it farther than the rest...doesn't
really support your technique over strength thing does it?
> "Long" John is the longest hitter on the tour. That's not my opinion. It's
> a fact. Go to PGA.com and look it up.
> And, OBTW, John is a beer swilling, Fat Bag of Snacks.
While he is statistically the longest hitter, the stats are a bit
skewed. Why? Because Tiger primarily uses 3-wood or long iron (1 or
2) off the tee...sacrificing distance for accuracy. JD usually pulls
the big stick. If you were to measure just the drives where a driver
is used, you would find that JD might not be at the top anymore.
> Now, I am not going to say that a guy who is in shape will not be a better
> all around golfer. He will. But it won't have anything to do with
> distance. The fact that more PGA players are working out these days has to
> do with the fact that Tiger, who is a freak of nature, works out and is in
> great shape and so they all followed his lead. But point in fact it has not
> helped them out. Phil Mikelson and David Duval are the 2 main guys that
> have dropped pounds and made a point that they were working out more to
> compete with Tiger Woods. Duval dropped right off the map since he started
> working out. He was at one point the #1 ranked player on the tour. Phil,
> while still ranking high on the money list, hasn't won a tournament of any
> import since his work out and in fact stopped working out saying that it
> hurt his game.
Many flaws with these arguments, I'll just address the two main ones:
1) Duval slipped down the rankings well before his fitness regime
began. He started working out to get back to the top. Since then, he
has climbed back to the top ten (from a fall all the way to 60 or 70
something).
2) Phil doesn't and hasn't committed to any kind of fitness program.
That is his whole excuse for not winning...he's a family man who
doesn't have any time for fitness and too little time for swinging the
club. Besides, with those man boobs you can't honestly tell me that
he has ever been inside a gym.
> You mentioned that the PGA players are driving the ball farther these days.
> True. But it has little to do with working out. The PGA itself has cited
> technological advances in equipment, including drivers that have a
> "Trampoline effect" on the ball and advances in the ball itself. They have
> been busying themselves rewriting the rule books on what kind of advances
> they will allow the players to use because of this increased distance. A
> player that is in shape will see better results due to the fact that he
> isn't winded after walking the course in 98 degree temp's for 4 days. On
> Sunday when the out of shape player is about to blow a lung the player who
> is more fit will have the edge. But not in driving distance.
Granted, technilogical advances have increased distance. But explain
why players gain 10-20 yards over a season without changing their
clubs, the ball they use, or doctoring their swing? Answer: strength
training.
> But back to my point about arm strength. The guys I personally play with
> that hit the ball the farthest all have very smooth swings and do not "swing
> out of their shoes" as they say. Contrast this with all the guys I see who
> try to kill the ball and end up with a nasty slice or duck hook and what you
> have is technique being far more important that arm strength. In fact if
> you have ever taken a lesson any PGA instructor will tell you that staying
> behind the ball at impact, transfer of weight (as you said), and keeping
> your arms/shoulders/torso and in line with each other are the main factors
> to a well struck drive. Generating swing speed also has little to do with
> arm strength. A proper swing doesn't require a lot of muscle. There is a
> saying, "Let the club do the work." They always tell that to guys who try
> to muscle the ball off the tee. They are saying this to get the guy to slow
> down and swing smooth not hard.
True, but these sayings are directed to people who try to use strength
but not technique. Once technique is in place, you can muscle through
the ball all you want. Just look at tiger when he's in 3 foot
rough...or when he on the fairway with 330 yards to the pin in a must
eagle situation. He comes out of his shoes he swings so hard. Once
you have the technique, you can increase club head speed and
consequently distance when you add strength. But that goes back to
what I said earlier:
> > Technique makes your throws go from 40 yards long and 10 feet high
> > throws to 110 yards long and 80 feet high throws...strength training
> > makes them go from 110 and 80 to 120 and 100.
Technique gets you there, strength pushes you just a little farther.
> Of the guys I play Ultimate with weekly I think it's fair to say that there
> may only be one other guy who can pull it farther than me. (Brad if you are
> keeping score I'm speaking of you) He is smaller than me, slightly, works
> behind a desk. As far as I know he doesn't work out at all. How he get's
> his disk to go so far I can't explain, but the dude can generate some major
> spin and it just keeps going. I can pull it very far as well, farther than
> most people I play with. But I can't bench over 175 lbs if I had to. (I
> tried the other day and maxed out at 175. So it's not a guess.)
Again, this does not mean you couldn't pull farther if you were
stronger. I'm not saying you have to be strong to pull far, I'm
saying strength can help anyone pull farther.
> Arm strength will only be a factor after you have figured out how to throw
> the disk properly. At that point I would hazard a guess that arm strength
> may add another 10-20 yards at best. But until you get your form down you
> can swill Red Bull and pump iron all you want and I'll still be yelling
> "Short Pull!!!" when you step up.
This is what I meant at the beginning of this post...this is exactly
what I said. I believe my exact words were:
> > Technique makes your throws go from 40 yards long and 10 feet high
> > throws to 110 yards long and 80 feet high throws...strength training
> > makes them go from 110 and 80 to 120 and 100.
I'm glad you went off on a rant to ultimately agree with me though...
Gino Barasa
> This is very specious reasoning my friend...here's why:
>
> 1) Just because he's the longest hitter on tour and because he's out
> of shape does not mean he wouldn't be even better off if he were in
> shape. Can you honestly say that he wouldn't hit the ball farther if
> he were in better shape? Answer: no.
Can you offer me some sort of empirical evidence that John would hit it
farther if he lost some weight?
Answer? No.
This is merely a guess on your part with all the logic assumed.
>
> 2) JD is probably the strongest player on tour.
Again, no facts here. Only your opinion. Now maybe you saw some show where
PGA players pumped iron or did other feats of strength. I guess I missed
it.
>
> 3) JD has a technically poor swing. Commentators, swing coaches,
> pros, and other tour players all joke about how he powers through his
> flawed swing and still drives it farther than the rest...doesn't
> really support your technique over strength thing does it?
The only thing flawed about his swing is that he goes past parallel on his
back swing. Other than that his swing is great. It's his dietary habits
that are the joke. Other than you I have yet to hear anyone talk about how
strong he is. I did however read the S.I. article that talked about he
would sit in his hotel room at night and power down bags of Oreo's and M&M's
and chase them down with Scotch and soda while chain smoking pack after
pack. Just because he's a big guy doesn't mean he's "the strongest player
on tour". He's unbelievably out of shape and he needs about 12 inches cut
off the back of his hair to boot.
> While he is statistically the longest hitter, the stats are a bit
> skewed. Why? Because Tiger primarily uses 3-wood or long iron (1 or
> 2) off the tee...sacrificing distance for accuracy. JD usually pulls
> the big stick. If you were to measure just the drives where a driver
> is used, you would find that JD might not be at the top anymore.
Very flawed. You might bother to read up on how the PGA keeps their stats.
If your drive isn't in the fairway they do not count it. And you have to
have a certain percentage of your drives in the fairway to even make the
"Longest Drive" category. But since you are hung up on John's supposed
"strength" I'll use another player. Ian Woosnam has been considered one of
the longest hitters on the tour as well. They guy is tiny and while he
isn't really tubby he does sport a rather noticeable Boiler. I seriously
doubt that even you could argue that Woosy is one of the strongest guys on
the tour.
>
> Many flaws with these arguments, I'll just address the two main ones:
>
> 1) Duval slipped down the rankings well before his fitness regime
> began. He started working out to get back to the top. Since then, he
> has climbed back to the top ten (from a fall all the way to 60 or 70
> something).
Dude. Do you just pull your "facts" out of your ass?
Duval isn't anywhere near the top ten. He's ranked 34 right now. BTWE,
your boy Phil is also ranked 34, tied with 5 guys.
> 2) Phil doesn't and hasn't committed to any kind of fitness program.
> That is his whole excuse for not winning...he's a family man who
> doesn't have any time for fitness and too little time for swinging the
> club. Besides, with those man boobs you can't honestly tell me that
> he has ever been inside a gym.
You may argue that Phil was not successful in his attempt to get in shape
but anyone that followed the tour at all would know that the last 2 years
Phil was telling anyone who would listen that he hired a personal trainer
and he is on a strict diet and he is hitting the weights. It appears to me
that he is no longer on this program as he seems to have gained the Lbs.
back, but it was not exactly a secret that he was very active in hitting
the weights. And his ranking dropped like a stone after he started it
contrary to your claim. The PGA stats back me up. Your imagination backs
you up.
>
> Granted, technological advances have increased distance. But explain
> why players gain 10-20 yards over a season without changing their
> clubs, the ball they use, or doctoring their swing? Answer: strength
> training.
>
More factually incorrect statements. Do you ever tire of making them?
Just because a player doesn't change his manufacturer (Nike, Callaway,
Hogan, etc.) doesn't mean the clubs in their bag aren't changing. The
*FACT* is that the players almost all have contracts that oblige them to
have their sponsors newest ball and clubs in their bag. This is why they
pay them all that money. So that they will be seen using their new $399.00
driver and their new "True Spin" ball. If they kept using last years stuff
then the lemmings wouldn't run off the cliff to go buy it. And as for
doctoring their swings.... Are you serious? They all have Butch Harmon or
David Ledbetter following them around and constantly are adjusting their
swings. Do you even follow the tour at all? You seem to know almost
nothing at all about what happens on the tour.
>
> True, but these sayings are directed to people who try to use strength
> but not technique. Once technique is in place, you can muscle through
> the ball all you want.
This is just my opinion, but I totally disagree with that. When you start
trying to kill the ball you screw up your form.
And you can't use Tiger Woods and an example of how a guy muscles his way
through shots. Why? Because Tiger is an anomaly. You can't teach what
Tiger does. If you could then every other kid on the block could do what he
does. Tiger is a once in a lifetime fluke. You have to throw him out of
the equation because when other players try to do what he does they fail.
>
> Technique gets you there, strength pushes you just a little farther.
Again, this does not mean you couldn't pull farther if you were
> stronger. I'm not saying you have to be strong to pull far, I'm
> saying strength can help anyone pull farther.
Strength can "help". Sure. Of course. But of the pie strength is about
5%. Some of the longest throwers I have ever seen where very thin college
kids who have not even come close to filling out physically yet. The more
you try to muscle your throw the worse it will be until you get your form
down. When I was learning to play Golf my instructor told me that I should
stop trying to hit the ball so far. When I asked him "why?", he told me
"That way you won't have so far into the tree's to walk." What he meant was
that until I could hit it straight my length was only taking me further into
the jungle.
> I'm glad you went off on a rant to ultimately agree with me though...
Hardly the case.
In the future if you are going to debate a subject based almost entirely on
suppositions and best guesses please let me know so I can have fun making up
things as I go along to.
Mike Gerics
> Mike, there is no question that technique is the most important
> factor. But technique being equal, the stronger person will throw it
> farther.
---well...better to have a better technique...
because there have been some muscle dudes out there since the start of my
career that had all sorts of fancy spin turns and crap...that didn't have
the distance in their pull.....
technique....ain't equal.
and what i am saying...is technique is the key.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sure you can throw it far with your self proclaimed weak
> arms...you could probably throw it farther if you'd hit the weight
> room.
---nope.
i disagree.
sometimes...strength takes away from technique.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just look at golf.
--no.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Technique makes your throws go from 40 yards long and 10 feet high
> throws to 110 yards long and 80 feet high throws...strength training
> takes them go from 110 and 80 to 120 and 100.
---call.
Mike Gerics
> As far as learning "the dance." Practice standing about 6[yards]
> steps from the line maybe further
as for learning the dance.....
if i am prompted to do so...
there could be a diagram on wuff online dot com....
Mike Gerics
> I found that I could add spin and distance by exaggerating the cocking of
> the wrist.
---see...problem here is...that it ain't no exaggeration....
cock that mutha fucka the way it should be....and it ain't exaggeration!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Normally in preparation for a backhand the wrist is bent until
> the edge of the disc contacted the forearm. When pulling, I overlap the
> edge of the disc on top of the forearm.
---oh...well...that might be a problem.
overlap your forearm...???????????
you got that ole "wrap up" problem.
sounds like you are selling yourself short.
Gimpeltf
>5%.
In other words, you do agree with the original premise. Again, no one is saying
that spending all sorts of time at the gym will have anywhere near the results
of learning how to do it right but as you say, it will help.
And Tiger is ripped if you ever looked. There's a reason he's so good. He's one
of the few golfers to ever take a complete athlete's approach to the sport- by
training and studying the game in an innovative way and with an attitude (a
good one). People here are assuming that big biceps or pecs are what we're
talking about. I would say leg/hip strength (and forearm for a flick) are much
more relevant especially since they also help your running.
But yes, technique, technique, technique.
Gimp
Garboj
GIVE ME THAT FREAKIN PRIZE FOR THE BEST ADVICE RIGHT NOW OR I WILL BEAT THE
LIVING CRAP OUT OF EVERYONE WITH MY FREAKING HUGE THROWING ARM!
russ
russ
Scoop
> as for learning the dance.....
> if i am prompted to do so...
> there could be a diagram on wuff online dot com....
Please, do it.
Gino Barasa
#2 - As I said I just don't think that Tiger can be used as a Bell Mark for
what you can expect if you work out because he is a freak of nature. Yes,
he works out. Yes, he is a very well put together guy. But, NO, I do not
think that his build has very much to do with the reason he is such a great
golfer. It may one day be the reason that he will be able to continue
playing at such a high level when his peers are fading away and unable to
crank out round after round without falling apart. But, again, this has
little to do with his length off the tee. His mental toughness is the part
of his game that others can not match. His DESIRE to be in the tough spot
where everything is on the line when others fade in that spot is what
separates him. I think you can take a thousand other pro-golfers, get them
in just as good of shape as he is and they will not be as good or as long as
Tiger Woods because what he does you can't teach. Michael Jordan, for
example, was never the greatest Athlete in the NBA. But no one really
argues that he was the greatest player of his time. He was just mentally
tougher than the others.
All the things other than arm strength that you
mentioned/that-have-been-mentioned are more important by far IMO. Abdominal
strength and leg drive and proper throwing technique are 90% of what a
guy/gal should be focusing on instead of big biceps. Which was after all my
original point, that arm strength has little to do with distance. It may
have "something" to do with it, but not as much as proper technique and all
of the others stuff. Here is what I said that got all this started....
"As in most things involving distance you will find that your arm strength
has little to do with it"
I never said it had "nothing" to do with it. Just that it had "little" to
do with it.
I still sit by that. And now that Pedro Martinez and Jack Nicklaus have
chirped in on my side I think I'll stay seated.
"Gimpeltf" <gimp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020905042829...@mb-ba.aol.com...
Nigel Herbig
-Nigel
"russ" <rl...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:al7l4b$t8$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...
Lance
throwing class at the National University of Singapore. It's so hard
to get some beginners to use the straight line-they desperately want
to wrap it around. Another version of..
.selling yourself short. Yes?
It can't go over your wrist (!?!?!) since it will go off-plane. Those
few extra degrees ain't worth diddley-darn doodley compared to good
angle of release. (Sorry, got in trouble for swearing to a security
guard today in this swinging town. So rude this white man) If it
only goes to your wrist it stays in plane and can be released much
more cleanly and forcefully.
At least that's how i think i understand it. Every once in a while
with a slight 45 deg. headwind I can put one in the back corner with
some hang time before it gets there. But only if I release perfectly
in the plane of the disc.
ld
"Mike Gerics" <des...@digitizing4embroidery.com> wrote in message news:<undp9k9...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > I found that I could add spin and distance by exaggerating the cocking of
> > the wrist.
>
> ---see...problem here is...that it ain't no exaggeration....
> cock that (HUSH YO' MOUTH!)
Chad Sandstrom
This is one of the more useful threads I've seen on usenet. Please
consider this a prompting (if that's what you were looking for) for a
diagram.
Chad Sandstrom
russ
news:al7tfo$o84$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
> I don't think any vote has been called yet.
Well, all this talk about Tiger has to go somewhere...
russ
Dan
"Gino Barasa" <Air...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:<IYAd9.404014$q53.13...@twister.austin.rr.com>...
> > This is very specious reasoning my friend...here's why:
> >
> > 1) Just because he's the longest hitter on tour and because he's out
> > of shape does not mean he wouldn't be even better off if he were in
> > shape. Can you honestly say that he wouldn't hit the ball farther if
> > he were in better shape? Answer: no.
>
>
> Can you offer me some sort of empirical evidence that John would hit it
> farther if he lost some weight?
> Answer? No.
> This is merely a guess on your part with all the logic assumed.
Its not a guess. It has been proven time and time again in every
sport that better physical fitness and strength improves the level of
play. Look at Andre Agassi, Sean Kemp, even in a sport where you
don't need to run, David Wells proved that he couldn't pitch the same
after he added another 30 lbs. Better fitness = better performance.
Why? Less muscle fatique so your motion stays strong and the
technique doesn't fall apart (this is why many ulti players turf the
disc a lot at the end of the day). More core stability which allows
more power into every motion you complete and allows better balance so
technique remains constant. It is very, very, very, simple, if JD
were to get into better shape, he would be a better golfer. Technique
got him to where he is, fitness could take him much farther. Why do
you think he hasn't done anything big on tour for years? Answer:
because he was in much better shape when he first stepped on (granted
he was still out of shape then...but its been all down hill).
> > 2) JD is probably the strongest player on tour.
> Again, no facts here. Only your opinion. Now maybe you saw some show where
> PGA players pumped iron or did other feats of strength. I guess I missed
> it.
And the opinion of many others. I watch the Golf channel up here on a
regular basis. They always have special guest coaches. The coaches
always bring on a star player to demo with. One day it was JD. All
the coach, JD, and the commentator talked about were the myriad of
faults in his swing that they are continually trying to work out,
saying things like, "but John can overcome that with his pure
strength, something other players can't do..." I've never seen any of
them bench press, but they have a good idea of who is strong and who
is not, just like if you asked me which ulti players are the
strongest...there is no doubt in my mind I could rattle off everyone
near the top.
> > 3) JD has a technically poor swing. Commentators, swing coaches,
> > pros, and other tour players all joke about how he powers through his
> > flawed swing and still drives it farther than the rest...doesn't
> > really support your technique over strength thing does it?
>
> The only thing flawed about his swing is that he goes past parallel on his
> back swing. Other than that his swing is great. It's his dietary habits
> that are the joke. Other than you I have yet to hear anyone talk about how
> strong he is. I did however read the S.I. article that talked about he
> would sit in his hotel room at night and power down bags of Oreo's and M&M's
> and chase them down with Scotch and soda while chain smoking pack after
> pack. Just because he's a big guy doesn't mean he's "the strongest player
> on tour". He's unbelievably out of shape and he needs about 12 inches cut
> off the back of his hair to boot.
Couldn't agree more that he's out of shape...but he's still strong.
Fact of the matter is, if he got in better shape he'd be a better
golfer.
> > While he is statistically the longest hitter, the stats are a bit
> > skewed. Why? Because Tiger primarily uses 3-wood or long iron (1 or
> > 2) off the tee...sacrificing distance for accuracy. JD usually pulls
> > the big stick. If you were to measure just the drives where a driver
> > is used, you would find that JD might not be at the top anymore.
> Very flawed. You might bother to read up on how the PGA keeps their stats.
> If your drive isn't in the fairway they do not count it. And you have to
> have a certain percentage of your drives in the fairway to even make the
> "Longest Drive" category. But since you are hung up on John's supposed
> "strength" I'll use another player. Ian Woosnam has been considered one of
> the longest hitters on the tour as well. They guy is tiny and while he
> isn't really tubby he does sport a rather noticeable Boiler. I seriously
> doubt that even you could argue that Woosy is one of the strongest guys on
> the tour.
What does this have to do with anything? I never said JD doesn't hit
the fairway. All I said is he primarily uses his driver while tiger
primarily uses his 3-wood and long irons. I'm well aware that it has
to be a fairway ball to count...it doesn't change the fact that JD's
fairway shots are coming with his driver while Tigers are coming with
smaller clubs...and that tiger has a higher fairway percentage than JD
as a result. But thanks for stating rules that have nothing to do
with what I said or with the argument.
As for woosnam, there is no question that he has a great swing...but
you're missing my point. I'm not saying you have to be strong to have
distance. I'm saying you have to have technique...but once technique
is in place, strength will give you even more distance. Woosy could
hit the ball even farther if he was stronger...plain and simple.
> > Many flaws with these arguments, I'll just address the two main ones:
> >
> > 1) Duval slipped down the rankings well before his fitness regime
> > began. He started working out to get back to the top. Since then, he
> > has climbed back to the top ten (from a fall all the way to 60 or 70
> > something).
>
>
> Dude. Do you just pull your "facts" out of your ass?
> Duval isn't anywhere near the top ten. He's ranked 34 right now. BTWE,
> your boy Phil is also ranked 34, tied with 5 guys.
In your last post you referenced pgatour.com. Why don't you go look
there again, you will find that Phil is ranked #2 in the world behind
Tiger while Duval just slipped to #11. I get my facts from the
statistical databases of the PGA, where do you get yours? 34th my
ass. Even if you went by the money list (which is stupid because
winning the right tournament can take you from 110th to 10th), Phil is
still #2...stop making shit up dumb ass.
1 Tiger Woods USA 17.56 755.23 43 -485.29 566.88
2 Phil Mickelson USA 9.95 477.50 48 -287.94 334.86
3 Ernie Els SAf 8.69 451.70 52 -267.79 363.06
4 Retief Goosen SAf 7.20 410.44 57 -172.51 290.85
5 Sergio Garcia Spn 6.77 352.03 52 -173.62 232.42
6 David Toms USA 5.56 317.04 57 -200.11 184.82
7 Davis Love III USA 5.34 250.94 47 -161.45 141.28
8 Padraig Harrington Ire 5.21 250.15 48 -136.18 144.82
9 Vijay Singh Fij 5.06 308.36 61 -218.18 190.59
10 Jim Furyk USA 4.94 232.09 47 -140.65 162.79
11 David Duval USA 4.74 203.73 43 -175.88 52.47
> > 2) Phil doesn't and hasn't committed to any kind of fitness program.
> > That is his whole excuse for not winning...he's a family man who
> > doesn't have any time for fitness and too little time for swinging the
> > club. Besides, with those man boobs you can't honestly tell me that
> > he has ever been inside a gym.
> You may argue that Phil was not successful in his attempt to get in shape
> but anyone that followed the tour at all would know that the last 2 years
> Phil was telling anyone who would listen that he hired a personal trainer
> and he is on a strict diet and he is hitting the weights. It appears to me
> that he is no longer on this program as he seems to have gained the Lbs.
> back, but it was not exactly a secret that he was very active in hitting
> the weights. And his ranking dropped like a stone after he started it
> contrary to your claim. The PGA stats back me up. Your imagination backs
> you up.
Phil never used a trainer...that has been his big excuse: "I have a
family, I don't have time for fitness, I wish I could just practice my
swing more...blah, blah, blah." As for him dropping in stats when he
used a trainer, I'd like you to show me where you got these stats that
"back you up." Phil has not been outside the top 5 over the last
couple of years...so if his ranking dropped, it obviously didn't drop
that much (especially when you consider how close els, singh, garcia,
goosen, etc. are for the rankings 2 through 10...not much room for
error). You make stuff up and call it fact...I just proved that with
the number 34 ranking bull shit you pulled...this is much the same.
> > Granted, technological advances have increased distance. But explain
> > why players gain 10-20 yards over a season without changing their
> > clubs, the ball they use, or doctoring their swing? Answer: strength
> > training.
> More factually incorrect statements. Do you ever tire of making them?
> Just because a player doesn't change his manufacturer (Nike, Callaway,
> Hogan, etc.) doesn't mean the clubs in their bag aren't changing. The
> *FACT* is that the players almost all have contracts that oblige them to
> have their sponsors newest ball and clubs in their bag. This is why they
> pay them all that money. So that they will be seen using their new $399.00
> driver and their new "True Spin" ball. If they kept using last years stuff
> then the lemmings wouldn't run off the cliff to go buy it. And as for
> doctoring their swings.... Are you serious? They all have Butch Harmon or
> David Ledbetter following them around and constantly are adjusting their
> swings. Do you even follow the tour at all? You seem to know almost
> nothing at all about what happens on the tour.
Sometimes the case, sometimes not. Did you no that Tiger has it in
his contract that he doesn't even have to use his sponsors equipment?
Did you know that Fred couples used the exact same set of clubs for 3
years (now I'm not talking the same make or modle...I'm talking the
exact same set never came out of his bag except to get cleaned or for
repairs). Why don't you look at the players who break a club on the
range and have it repaired before they go out because its the only set
of clubs they'll use. Sure some players have the newest set of clubs
that their manufacturer makes. But many more find something they're
comfortable with and they stick with it. Why? Because changing clubs
changes a feel and can affect the swing...when a player is doing well
they don't want to change anything. So as much as you think corporate
america controls the players, you're wrong.
As for doctoring their swing, I couldn't agree more that they all have
coaches and tinker away. But when they find something that works,
they tend to stick with it. If you knew anything about golf, the
swing coaches do more work making sure the player doen't change his
swing back to an old habbit than correcting the new swing. You'll
here things like, "I started dropping my hands down to far again and
using my wrists to power through and correct it...Butch and I have
been working on keeping that in tact." Before you comment on this
again, just watch any instructional golf show that uses players as an
example...please...because the only one making shit up is you.
> > True, but these sayings are directed to people who try to use strength
> > but not technique. Once technique is in place, you can muscle through
> > the ball all you want.
> This is just my opinion, but I totally disagree with that. When you start
> trying to kill the ball you screw up your form.
> And you can't use Tiger Woods and an example of how a guy muscles his way
> through shots. Why? Because Tiger is an anomaly. You can't teach what
> Tiger does. If you could then every other kid on the block could do what he
> does. Tiger is a once in a lifetime fluke. You have to throw him out of
> the equation because when other players try to do what he does they fail.
Why is it that Barry is suddenly hitting way more homeruns this late
in his career when his swing hasn't really changed all that much?
Because he's added about 50 lbs of muscle since he entered the league.
The FACT of the matter is, strength will help you add distance in
anything. Technique gets you the distance in the first place,
strength gives you a little more. If you think otherwise, you are
simpley an idiot.
As for not being able to teach what Tiger does, why not? He's just
perfected a very sound swing with a very fit and strong body. There
is no reason that others cannot develope a similar technique and get
in similar shape. He's a "freak" as you call it because he's the
first sound swing in golf to be on the body of an elite athlete. If
you stuck Phil's swing into the body of a Tori Hunter, or a Kobe
Bryant, you would have another Tiger Woods...maybe even someone
better. There is no other reason that Tiger is an anomaly other than
the fact that he is in much better shape than everyone of his
competitors, there are many players who have just as good a swing.
See Phil, Ernie, Freddy, etc.
> > Technique gets you there, strength pushes you just a little farther.
> Again, this does not mean you couldn't pull farther if you were
> > stronger. I'm not saying you have to be strong to pull far, I'm
> > saying strength can help anyone pull farther.
> Strength can "help". Sure. Of course. But of the pie strength is about
> 5%. Some of the longest throwers I have ever seen where very thin college
> kids who have not even come close to filling out physically yet. The more
> you try to muscle your throw the worse it will be until you get your form
> down. When I was learning to play Golf my instructor told me that I should
> stop trying to hit the ball so far. When I asked him "why?", he told me
> "That way you won't have so far into the tree's to walk." What he meant was
> that until I could hit it straight my length was only taking me further into
> the jungle.
You still don't get it do you. You spend your whole post arguing me
only to quasi agree with me right at the end. I'm going to state it
again you truely understand. TECHNIQUE GETS YOU THERE, STRENGTH TAKES
YOU A LITTLE FARTHER.
What your golf instructor told you is exactly what I said above.
Thats the sort of thing they tell golfers who don't have technique.
Once the technique is down, you will never hear a coach say don't
swing so hard. Those are the steps: Get the technique down, then
start adding power.
As for trying to muscle your throw, I agree that it is a bad idea
until you have your form down. But once your form is down, keep
trying to put more power into it and you'll keep getting more
distance...its that simple. Again:
TECHNIQUE GETS YOU BIG DISTANCE, STRENGTH WILL GET YOU A LITTLE MORE.
> > I'm glad you went off on a rant to ultimately agree with me though...
>
> Hardly the case.
> In the future if you are going to debate a subject based almost entirely on
> suppositions and best guesses please let me know so I can have fun making up
> things as I go along to.
Funny, because you actually did make up all your facts while I backed
mine.
Dan
> > Mike, there is no question that technique is the most important
> > factor. But technique being equal, the stronger person will throw it
> > farther.
>
> ---well...better to have a better technique...
> because there have been some muscle dudes out there since the start of my
> career that had all sorts of fancy spin turns and crap...that didn't have
> the distance in their pull.....
>
> technique....ain't equal.
> and what i am saying...is technique is the key.
I couldn't agree more. Technique isn't equal. Technique is
definitely much more important then strength. I'm just saying that
strength helps too.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I'm sure you can throw it far with your self proclaimed weak
> > arms...you could probably throw it farther if you'd hit the weight
> > room.
>
> ---nope.
> i disagree.
> sometimes...strength takes away from technique.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Just look at golf.
Where in golf? The fact that tiger is ridiculously strong and can
drive the ball farther? Or in the worlds longest driving contest
where the five time reigning champion Jason Zubak (sp?) is about 5'9"
and 210lbs of all muscle? Tell me where strength takes away from
distance in Golf and I'll show you the imagination of a fat man in
denial.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Technique makes your throws go from 40 yards long and 10 feet high
> > throws to 110 yards long and 80 feet high throws...strength training
> > takes them go from 110 and 80 to 120 and 100.
>
> ---call.
Are you calling me on this? Or is this like a poker call: You're in?
Gino Barasa
The stats referenced were off of the PGA web site under "Player Stats". On
closer inspection I noticed that these stats were based solely on the PGA
Championship of 2002 and not the entire tour year. So you are correct that
my player placement was incorrect.
My bad.
We are arguing the same side of the coin for the most part just from
opposite ends of the coin.
I doubt there will be head way gained with further verbiage so I will part
with my concession that your stats are correct.
I enjoyed the spirited debate, thanks for the fill. I'm off to Padre Island
where I will be attempting to gain more distance on my M.T.A. stats by
throwing into the ocean wind for the rest of the week.
"Dan" <danat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:65be4807.0209...@posting.google.com...
Scoop
> I say:
> GIVE ME THAT FREAKIN PRIZE FOR THE BEST ADVICE RIGHT NOW OR I WILL BEAT THE
> LIVING CRAP OUT OF EVERYONE WITH MY FREAKING HUGE THROWING ARM!
feared when I offered that highly valuable prize. Please, for the love
of the ESPN scouts that are probably lurking here, try to put on a
more civil face for the folks out in TV land.
BTW, is anybody else watching the Great Outdoor Challenge on ESPN -
doggies jumping really far into the water, retreiver trials, log
rolling and lumberjack competitions with lots of corporate
sponsorship.
Garboj
strength training doesn't improve your distance, it sure does make your arms
look hot in that tank top. I mean, do you need another reason? Hell, I'd
give up some distance -- if I had to -- to keep a little more muscle on my
arms.
How about the possibility that it might reduce your chances of shoulder injury
from laying out, or help rebuild your torn rotator after you already injured
it?
Oh, I'm sorry, did I change the subject?
NOW GIVE ME THE PRIZE OR I WILL THROW YOUR FRISBEE ACROSS THE STREET AND INTO
THE WOODS.