Request for Help
SquishToGo
this week due to an exhausting 90-message two-week debate on top of an
"aww, come on" on a great completed thumber pass for not throwing it
to the single most open person on the field after showing up 40
minutes early to stand alone and practice so as not to annoy anyone,
showing ITs to a nine year old who threw some well and was the nicest
person about it I've come across.
You're naturally a little sarcastic on a board, fine, but you can't
fathom the affect 120 raters saying "you stink" has on your *life*. I
believe I have not been any ruder than you; what remains is a
disagreement on strategy. I think it's very unfair BUT, if you don't
agree, fine, but accepting that, if there isn't a single thing I can
say to earn the right to even talk to you learn from all the people
I'm trying to impress which I've done by sifting through the sarcasm
and taking all the points into account, the only reason I came here, I
simply can't play this sport anymore.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't mark this post with "Terrible apology;
this guy shouldn't be playing ultimate," because this isn't a board,
this is life, and very few of you would be on a team with me and talk
trash about me to my face every week. Bottom line, if someone can
upset you so much that there isn't a single permutation of characters
in which I can ask for the right to talk with you or not two people
that can say "Alright, fine, good luck," even if you think it's silly,
then you tell me, seriously, what course of action I must take over
the next years to earn the right to talk to anyone else about this
sport, because otherwise I can't play it.
Thanks.
Squish
If you want to check in on my little campagin to impress all you guys
you can check squish7.com/frisbee
Andrew
Amen.
SquishToGo
that the person on the other side is human....Because your interaction
is through a computer it is easy to forget that there are people "out
there."...Don't attack people if you can't persuade them with your
presentation of the facts....Try not to say anything to others you
would not say to them in person in a room full of people." -google
netiquete
Quick further challenge. If you're gonna one-star me, please copy and
paste the following:
1. I don't really think you deserve to be playing this sport
2. There's really nothing you can do or say at this point where I'm
going to listen to you and offer the advice you're looking for.
Tom Shane
this week due to an exhausting 90-message two-week debate
lol wut
Adam Tarr
I've gotten to the six different rec.sport.disc threads I started on
the same subject" tack is not going to get you anywhere.
You can't point and laugh at people's posts, make fun of people for
one-starring you, call us stubborn and hidebound, vastly distort the
responses you get, and then play the victim. And playing the victim
is precisely what you are doing.
2) You've been treated with more respect than you've given. Saying
how you really appreciate everyone's advice, and then telling them
that they don't understand and lack the experience to appreciate your
point, is fundamentally insincere. The reason multiple people have
said, in effect, "OK, go ahead, play the way you want" is that you
have made it abundantly clear that you aren't going to listen to us
anyway.
I didn't get snarky with you until it became clear that not only were
you not going to be convinced, but you were essentially ignoring the
arguments that had been presented to you, and instead just making fun
of people.
3) You've been told over and over again why you are wrong. You
refuse to recognize that taking a split second to sight your target
and recover balance reduces the chance of an errant throw or a
defensive play. You continue to discount the possibility that many
good players can switch grips and release a forehand or backhand in
such a time frame, and still release the throw before the mark has a
chance to set. You refuse to acknowledge that the thumber forehand is
more difficult to control and increases the chance of a turnover.
4) If you're not going to believe the above points, then really,
there's no point in us responding any more, because you're not going
to suddenly believe us. So, to answer your closing question ("...what
course of action must I take...") the answer is simple - seek out
opportunities to play at a higher level, and listen to the advice of
better and more experienced players than you.
Once you actually have living experience with players who can
effectively move the disc quickly without using the throws you
advocate, you will have a better understanding of where the rest of us
are coming from.
So, again, good luck with your playing career.
Eric Brach
SquishToGo
where other throws are better, 2) Restricted wrist. 3) Pros can
switch grips quickly. 4) Useless below your chest and to far right,
etc. Obvious Points I think I've made totally ignored: 1) b/h and f/
h useless for ITs above the chest. 2) you *can* put full contact on a
peach 3) overhand does not have the peach's power. I'm the only one
learning anything.
You can't quote your elite experience and say well-skilled pickup is
useless. I never, ever, once asked how ITs applies to pros, because
that's not what I do (yet). Also, you know a lot, but have not
studied a single move for a whole summer. Your statement "you won't
admit you are wrong" instead of "we disagree" is horrid non-intention
to be open to the slightest idea.
> 2) You've been treated with more respect than you've given.
Me>> I feel like the entire Ultimate culture is retarded.
You>> Nothing like editing the wiki page so that it supports your
point.
Me>> No offense but I think you've all been sniffing dirty discs or
something =)
You>> and we just go straight down the field throwing jump thumbers,
it's unstoppable!
Me>> Not to be bitchy but I think it's real mature to say "your post
sticks" because you disagree
You>> Frank and Toad be damned, welcome to sport progression people!
My only point in "playing victim" is this, I can't take bickering with
people (my problem) I'm trying to learn from, so I just want to get
along. It's infathomable to try to learn from others only willing to
teach through bickering, to ask how to get along, and to have that
very asking itself be called idiodic.
SquishToGo
You > Just keep playing until you understand why you're wrong
Me > Two experienced sides can learn a lot from each other.
Fish
wait, i don't understand. are you serious?
Mark -Mortakai- Moran
> Belief: Peaches are perfect.
Peaches are okay. Nectarines are more perfect.
SquishToGo
not to mention 180 raters, and 30 friends complaining about missing
*completed* passes, in a single month after massive effort a whole
summer to learn something new. You could each tolerate one call of
tech help but 70 hours of it over and over would strongly affect you.
Adam Tarr
> Corrections: 1) many other situations where other throws are better,
No, the contention is that a forehand or backhand is ALWAYS more
controllable. Always. They are simply easier throws to control, so
the margin of error on those throws will always be higher. Not
sometimes, but always.
> 3) Pros can switch grips quickly.
If pros means, "lots of people who practice it", then yes. Plenty of
good club players can switch grips very quickly.
> Obvious Points I think I've made totally ignored: 1) b/h and f/h
> useless for ITs above the chest.
I did not ignore this at all. I have said more than once that
throwing without sighting your target and getting your balance will
reduce your margin of error. Hence, the so-called instant throw
(which, of course, is not instantaneous) is not very useful except in
a greatest situation. So, with the exception of a greatest caught up
high, this "advantage" which you cite is completely insignificant.
> 3) overhand does not have the peach's power.
Sure, but nobody is using overhands/chicken wings for anything except
greatest attempts. You do have a strong argument that this throw
should be used more in greatest attempts.
> I'm the only one
> learning anything.
I think you've made some people consider using the thumber forehand on
greatest attempts.
> You can't quote your elite experience and say well-skilled pickup is
> useless.
Useless for what? I'm not sure what you mean. At any rate, I
haven't, wouldn't, and don't state that pickup is "useless" in
general.
> I never, ever, once asked how ITs applies to pros, because
> that's not what I do (yet).
Bullshit. You have stated, and continue to state on your webpage,
that conventional wisdom about "IT"s is wrong and you are right.
There haven't been and aren't any caveats there where you say "I only
mean at the pickup level because I don't know anything about club
level ultimate".
> Your statement "you won't
> admit you are wrong" instead of "we disagree" is horrid non-intention
> to be open to the slightest idea.
No, it's not - I'm open to plenty of new ideas. But the idea of
twisting around and whipping thumber flicks for continuation throws
immediately after the catch is not one of them. I am as certain that
that is a bad idea as I am about just about anything in the sport.
> Me>> I feel like the entire Ultimate culture is retarded.
> You>> Nothing like editing the wiki page so that it supports your
> point.
> Me>> No offense but I think you've all been sniffing dirty discs or
> something =)
> You>> and we just go straight down the field throwing jump thumbers,
> it's unstoppable!
> Me>> Not to be bitchy but I think it's real mature to say "your post
> sticks" because you disagree
> You>> Frank and Toad be damned, welcome to sport progression people!
I didn't say any of those things.
> My only point in "playing victim" is this, I can't take bickering with
> people (my problem) I'm trying to learn from, so I just want to get
> along. It's infathomable to try to learn from others only willing to
> teach through bickering, to ask how to get along, and to have that
> very asking itself be called idiodic.
You claim to want to learn from us, but when every sane poster tells
you you're wrong, providing multiple reasons why, you insist they
don't understand and are mistaken. Consider the possibility that YOU
are the one who is "bickering".
SquishToGo
K, I'm seriously, literally offering you any of you a $100 bet each.
We find an indifferent third party to read through the posts, and 1)
ask if the ratings are basically fair and non-lopsided. 2) ask which
side admits more points and is willing to learn from the other. I'm
deadly serious, I'm sure there are ways to work it out. If you won't
put a free $100 bill in your pocket, please explain why.
Mark -Mortakai- Moran
Why? ... something about not caring about the ass of a rat... or
something like that.
pfkmerl
your argument as a whole.
First of all, the ratings are not pats on the back. Your posts are
rated low because if somebody comes to RSD to pick up some tips on how
to play the game, they will see the rankings on your posts and know
that it is not a trusted opinion in the ultimate community.
Your second point is to "ask which side admits more points." I love
baseball. Since high school, however, i've only been able to play it
at very low levels of competition... including softball. I could post
on a baseball message board that i think nobody should stop at first
base on a routine single to the outfield. I've had great success with
this playing against low competition. The likelihood of the fielder
fielding the ball cleanly, firing a good throw into 2nd base, the 2B/
SS catching the ball cleanly, applying the tag, and the umpire making
the correct call is very low... at very low levels of competition. How
would that message board post be received? My guess is that any
respectable high school, college, minor league, or major league
baseball player would give me a very low rating. Playing pick-up is
great, but it's a little bit more like beer league co-ed softball than
a decent club or college tournament. Back to your argument, of course
you are able to "admit more points." You have more to learn.
If your feelings have been hurt, i'll take the initiative of
apologizing for everyone in RSD-land. But please stop posting about
this. This discussion goes nowhere and i'm sick of seeing it in the
side banner as an active thread. You seem to believe that people
aren't listening to you and being callous because this is an online
forum. According to your profile, you live in Massacusetts. Boston
Ultimate is one of the best teams in the country. Go to one of their
practices, scrimmages, etc, and ask them about using "ITs."
Maybe you'll revolutionize the game. I'm all for it. But until you put
your words to action, i don't plan on revolutionizing my game because
somebody else claims to have revolutionized the game but isn't able to
make it work in real tournament competition.
On Aug 19, 6:09 pm, Mark -Mortakai- Moran <just_morta...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
SquishToGo
What I'm saying is wild claims like "backhand / overhand are
preferable in all ways" when I've made *a few* points shows a huge
initial bias that it takes paperwork to admit you had at all, ITs or
not.
> good club players can switch grips very quickly.
Yet you can't say why a quarter second in a sport--the difference in
being guarded or not--doesn't light a candle to "difficult pass". You
can't leap from "incerases error" and then "not useful." For that you
have to say "totally destroys ability to toss from one totally open
man to another"
> I think you've made some people consider using the thumber forehand on
> greatest attempts.
Thank you. Now, it's very natural for me to learn a ton here
obviously, and to make a small dent in the opposite direction, that's
balanced, but, why is *my* huge list of admissions bull and stubborn?
> that conventional wisdom about "IT"s is wrong and you are right.
BIG Q, how do you even know that I haven't played as hard as you on a
team that won a summer league tournament? Anyway, I mean conventional
wisdom *about pickup*. How could I possibly tell you what pro is
like? I'm asking you to think down to me, assuming you can explain
why the tournament I've played in isn't in your ballpark.
> I didn't say any of those things.
Come on, "you" plural. You personally claim you've all been nicer, and
I say go through the threads, that's the first five rude statements in
the whole thing; it's even. Debate aside, you can't state to my face
"My posts deserve medals, yours are the worst anyone could post
anywhere." If there's a difference, it's delusional and egotistical
to extend it to shit vs gold.
> You claim to want to learn from us, but when every sane poster tells
You cannot, cannot say you're right because there are a whole ton of
you. I can easily be an atheist and walk into a Christian auditorium.
Ryan Thompson
being guarded or not--doesn't light a candle to "difficult pass". You
can't leap from "incerases error" and then "not useful." For that you
have to say "totally destroys ability to toss from one totally open
man to another""
Because turnovers are so costly at the elite level (what is generally
discussed here) that anything that increases the error of a pass is
not useful because any turnover has a good chance of leading to a
break.
Yes, punting and playing zone is highly effective in college and low-
level club womens ultimate -- that doesn't mean that it's something
that should be looked at as an ideal.
Jude
wrote:
> On Aug 19, 1:55 pm, SquishToGo <a...@squish7.com> wrote:
>
> > Belief: Peaches are perfect.
>
> Peaches are okay. Nectarines are more perfect.
Yes Nectarines are great, as stone fruit go, but the Doughnut or
Saturn Peach is the king of stone fruit.
Hotpants
Squish is either the best poster I've seen in a long time, or woefully
inexperienced at frisbee.
SquishToGo
But this clause doesn't include to *every single stinking post*.
You're including *every* post in which I make a single, solid point,
like "a peach is more powerful than an overhand." Five stars for
incorrect information, and one star for a correction. Even on
sarcastic remarks (either end) that are removed from the actual
debate. About your clause to begin with, if this were
Rec.Sports.MassConsensus, you'd be totally right. But it's marked
"Frisbee." You can't take up 98% of the auditorium and shove other
people out of the seats because you're tough.
> you are able to "admit more points." You have more to learn.
1) this is even on dead facts
2) I'm not a toddler. I've helped win a tournament, it's not newbie
vs wizard.
3) I have some experience you don't. I can go into Harvard and say
"hey, I've collected data on this type-VII mango-daisy."
3) We DO have the same experience talking about *my level*. I don't
have to be brady to understand professional football, I just have to
be on the team!
> this. This discussion goes nowhere and i'm sick of seeing it in the
It doesn't, I learn, and I think you learn a tiny bit. By your policy
magnified, the really big guys couldn't have achieved e=mc2 or "be
nice to your neighbors." And you're not annoyed cuz of a line of
text, you're annoyed because of some morbid curiosity you're arguing
with me.
I've *already* gone to the field and tried stuff based on your
comments. How much active stuff can I do in a month?
SquishToGo
Having a man stand in front of you while you're trying to throw a disc
while dexterous people run to do the same to everyone else *massively
increases chance of error.* Maybe you're right about pro! I *don't
know yet*. But IF it's just well-skilled mid-range pickup and lowly
league tournaments, then why couldn't this debate simply have turned
into a friendly mid-level IT strategy talk 80 posts ago?
SquishToGo
YOU: Giving the defense time to guard you and the entire field, is not
significant enough to allow use of a good-but-not-great instant pass
to an already open man even one in fifty throws, a maneuver that
coincidentally takes double the skill and focus to master than a
regular in-game throw.
Douglia
Squish:
I am going to misinterpret and twist every logical and salient point
made, because I cannot be wrong. VALIDATE ME!!!
SquishToGo
Riiiiight, because no one in 100 messages has done that over and over
and over besides me. Let's start with "jump-thumber ultimate" and go
from there. I'm saying this whole thing is "throwing a tiny bit
quicker to an open man with a decent pass" vs "that's never ever worth
it." *You* phrase it in a way that doesn't sound absurd, because I
can't.
Douglia
A) the defense is always guarding the entire field. they do not set
up after each catch is made. this alone is one of the best reasons
not to go spraying instant throws all over the field.
2) a forehand thumber would not be considered "good" by most players.
not even just those at the elite level.
III) you should always throw to the open man. you should always focus
on your throws, as well as where the defenders are, and consider how
to get your throw to that open person in the most succsful way
possible. unfortunately the defense also knows this and will set a
"trap" or use such a open person as "bait". this can lead to
turnovers. turnovers lead to losses. ironically, losses make the baby
jesus cry. unless you roll a saving throw, but that takes infinite
skill and focus, as well as luck and a +4 stamina. no one has that.
not even someone who practiced all summer and won thier local league
tournament one time.
But forget all that...us meanies on the internets just won't listen to
the wiki on the wall. if you can prove your ideas are successful, you
could win that summer league tourney again, and we would have to eat
our humble pie. Maybe you could make a video to show us how you are
right in the end, just don't be throwing all your IT's to spruces and
pines, they never catch anything.
Douglia
It may not be as absolute as NEVER worth it...but is does not sound
like a best practice, or even a good reccomendation for the numerous
reason listed by others.
Does it sound absurd when I phrase it like this:
You should try to make extremely difficult, high risk throws to gain a
fraction of a second advantage rather than making an easier, lower
risk throw before your defender has been able to get his mark on.
cuz that's what I have been hearing from you. and it is INSANE! even
at 125 posts!!!
I can always re-phrase the above statements with additional caveats
and modifiers to muddy the waters if it would help.
as always, prove your damn point on the field, and we will apologize
and hold you on high as the new messiah of ultimate
Douglas T Lilley
He certainly is prolific. I wonder if he ever went to WUFF camp.
SquishToGo
I said if someone happens to be open, when you would throw it.
> 2) a forehand thumber would not be considered "good" by most players.
You're right. We're all going in circles. I can say it is by me, and
we're stuck.
> possible. unfortunately the defense also knows this and will set a
Then you can't ever throw a frisbee if the defense has perfect plans.
Zero difference between open man at moment one and two seconds later.
> skill and focus, as well as luck and a +4 stamina. no one has that.
> not even someone who practiced all summer and won thier local league
If the luck is one in thirty, then that's 1 in 30 times it should be
used. It shouldn't take two seconds of thought for you to realize
there's a guy over there. 0.1 stamina to twist your wrist. Skill is
simply practice, period, and if I can get it to 50% completion during
game when 90% of my forehands after 12 years go in the bushes, so can
you. And if we shouldn't strive for the maximum focus that our brains
are capable of during sports, your pros aren't even pro yet!
> our humble pie. Maybe you could make a video to show us how you are
*shake hands*. super agreed. but we were super agreed on that a
whole thread so, so clearly there's plenty to talk about, though maybe
we're at the end here, how depressing! MASSIVE thing done here is I
just wanted to be able to discuss this a tiny bit more civilized and
not walk away not wanting to even play this sport, and I felt that
here.
I summed up the utter root of my pain point, and you've perfectly
covered every major counter-point by you guys. After that, it's
circles, I suppose. I'll get you that video, but beware, it's
special, like the ring, you might just die seven days afterwards of
calcium overdose.
SquishToGo
OMG, that's it!!! I understand you all now! It's quantum physics vs
relativity, or atheist vs agnostic! We're getting the exact same
feeling from the other side. So a video would just be a couple proofs
that would give you a punch and then you'd punch me back. But, if I'm
were I think I am, my situation has the huge history of the single guy
convincing a whole bunch of others of a whole field they're not
studying, so, maybe it's worth a shot!
Wikipedia will one day state: "Ultimate Frisbee is split between two
major subdivisions, Aerial Peach Jumper Ultimate, and Bulldozer-
Backhand."
Peterson
they kept lateralling the ball all the way down the field and "never"
waiting for the defense to prepare? Well that play worked too.
However you rarely see it used in football. Hmmm..... maybe it's too
risky or do you think all those teams are just too stuck in the mud
from years of not trying anything new. Not saying that I don't like
the quick pass or the occaisonal no-look pass but there is a time and
place for everything and the immediate jump-pass thumber should
probably be thrown as often as my lefty over the shoulder no-look
pass. That is to say not very often or as close to never as possible.
Steve
SquishToGo
situation of someone who sees or thinks he sees something new, I'm
programmed to go nuts writing proofs and you're all programmed to say
"i suppose" when I build my peach nuclear bomb and blow up discraft
headquarters for their supercloaking and non-peach-friendly discs.
Bottom line an entire board and I are agreed on, I'll go give it a
shot. Toodles.
Squish
blueprints: http://squish7.com/frisbee
SquishToGo
violent football that failed? What if it had just been done
differently. You can't be so stuck in your POV, that if I go and form
Peach-Jump Ultimate, taking all the skill and practice to play it as
your game, you're gonna say "nope, in the whole realm of general
frisbee, we got it all right, and if we settled on a half-and-half,
we'd win every game."
Fish
SquishToGo
It's infinitely simple. A sport where you have to jump and catch-and-
release every throw before you hit the ground. Think it'll look
stupid? I think skating looks retarded. It's 100% possible, and you
say something that hard doesn't even intersect a microgram with the
skills of your sport!
NE Ultimate
Ha, SquishToGo you are the best satirist in Ultimate!! Thank you for
your commitment to this!
~TB
SquishToGo
peach-physics. I just don't get paid for either yet.
SquishToGo
Two more and that's a full time job debating with you all. Keep it
comin' I got all night. =)
morrison...@gmail.com
squich, i've read your website, so, unless i'm horribly misinformed,
you haven't lost shit from work.
there is a game we used to, and do play to recreate your view. we
stand in a circle, and we practice greatests. in a circle, we jump
around and throw passes. turnovers occur.
here are the questions you need to ask yourself:
when you throw an 'IT' is it to a cutter, or to an uncovered pickup
player? in elite play, we seldom have an OPEN player to throw to. we
DO throw very quick pases to players. see (PLINKO) or general give and
go.
i did throw a PERFECT IT pass one time: the disc was fluttering, and
i miraculously swiped it out of the air, and threw a quick thumber. i
was told it was nothing by CVH. HE was right. I'd thrown so many (1)
turnovers that practice that I was not OK to make mistakes.
IF YOU TRULY WANT TO PROVE YOURSELF: you have to go to practices and
dominate: get d's, (first of all, if you're a real ultimate player,
you get d's_
then, once you get d's: dominate the offensive end: then you can throw
IT's.
Your problem, is you're trying to win an argument online that you need
to demonstate in person. Can you beat me with IT's? There is some
strength to your argument. But you're doing it the wrong way. Catch
and throw is cool. Catch and turnover is lame. You need to
understand this:
The players you are arguing with have turnover percentages that range
in the 1% to less: can you claim the same; pay attention: on
unmarked throws, I turn it over less than 1% of the time. I would
say, on an unmarked throw, i turn it over about 1 out of every 1000
times.
Here is the math;
If your IT throw has as little as a 10% (1/10) opportunity for a
turnover, then 2 of them have a .81 chance of turnover, and 3 have a
chance of a .72 chance of completion.
in youre experience of playing: how many times have you completed 10
passes in a row. we have. every time. good luck to you, we don't
ever turn it over: do you? that said, i often hold the disc for less
than .5 seconds: but only when i throw an easy short pass.
do you get it yet? you say you've won a tournament: nationals?
regionals? potlatch? solstice? turnovers count: can YOU MINIMIZE
TURNOVERS?
SquishToGo
I apologize for every novelist and songwriter out there if our jobs
seem like Fiji vacations to you. You know, I've read your posts, and
you think you have a thyroid gland problem.
I don't know how many times I can state I'm not asking about your 1%
turnover games. If that's all you're talking about, then this would
have switched to "yah that's some great technique for your average
pickup!" long ago.
> can YOU MINIMIZE TURNOVERS?
Again I can only theorize to pro from your desc, but theoretically in
*any game* the only difference I see between a great 3-second and a
great IT pass is an advantage in time! I can throw 3-s and ITs 100 in
a row at you during practice, why does the IT suddenly get way worse
during game if you're skilled at it? Why can the defense magically
block a quick three-foot toss and never ever a three foot toss that
took two more seconds to think about?
You can do a lot in discussion, obviously I fully intend to follow up
on the field, but I can't do that without absorbing the opinions and
input of you guys and learning from you on it.
SquishToGo
> like a best practice
Btw, this sounds a hammer to me. =)
If you guys can master the skills of a <1% turnover, how well do you
think you could do ITs if you'd been practicing the skill for 10
years? Anyone would say "too difficult" and "innacurate" and
"blockable" about a hammer or a forehand if they weren't skilled at
them.
SquishToGo
1. Could you please paste a YouTube link of a good generic example or
two about the level you play at? That would help.
2. FYI, Daredevils are much better for peaches, so if you haven't
practiced ITs with them, you haven't even tried them with a good peach
disc yet!
Jude
Squish, Call Carter. Quick