Was Worlds Worth It?

[matt...@gmail.com]

So i remember a great deal of discussion about how expensive worlds'
bids were per team, per player, etc. I don't actually remember how
much these fees were ($1000 per team, $150 per player?) but I was
wondering if people who went to the tournament thought the fees were
justified.

just curious.

rubes

[honorary klingon]

Don't you kind of hope that nobody has come home from Worlds yet? To
travel all the way to Australia and experience a flat stretch of grass
with sun and wind may not even justify the airfare. However, if
someone IS already home, that's exactly the person to answer your
question.

[Jen]

Unfortunately, I'm one of the unlucky ones who only went for the
tournament and couldn't stay to travel. So, I'm back, working on 3
hours of sleep (on a boogie board on the concrete outside of LAX) in
the last 36 hours, and I can answer your question. The early
registration player's fee was ~$300 per person. Our player packs
included a cleat bag, flip-flops, a chamois towel, a disc, sticker, and
bottle opener, all with the logo on it. The buses were on time, ran
every 6 minutes during prime getting-to-the-fields time, and had stops
in most city areas. The fields were perfect, there were shade tents
provided for the teams during games, the port-a-potties were plentiful,
cleaned and almost always papered, and there was plenty of water and
sunscreen. The tournament ran perfectly on schedule. The couches and
TV's in the spirit lounge were in use a lot and showing ultimate
highlights from the day before compliments of Ultivillage and the cute
boy who works for them, but the area itself smelled like cow shit. We
also got free dinner on Friday night during the masters finals, which
involved several varieties of meats-on-sticks. The Saturday night party
was SUPER fun, but though there was no free alcohol unless you were
hanging out with Josh. And maybe the Australians weren't too happy
about the Atlantans dominating the boat racing so completely. So, I
think all of that was worth $300.

Many people had legitimate complaints that bus service was too
infrequent in the middle of the day, so it was hard to leave --to shop,
eat, or sight see--and come back, even when they played an 8:30 game
and a 4:30 game?! Which seems crazy to me, to be stuck there that long.
Also, the $3.00 charge for taping and late arrivals by tapers (8:30,
and there were 8:30 games) was tough for folks. And, if you hadn't
gotten to the fields by 10:30 on finals day, you had to take a
monumental head-splitting trek to the bus station that kinda sucked.
But maybe 'going alittle easier on the bourbon' the nighht before could
have fixed that one. my vote: worth it. But trade the internet lounge
for free freaking beer!

[jbrose]

I am one of the few people who played and had to return home right
away, and I am happy to answer the question. Was it worth it to pay
exhorbitant player fees and travel to Australia to play in Worlds?
Yes. Was the tournament itself worth $330 per player? Not even close.

Start by looking at what the $330 got you (or didn't get you). The
fields were excellent. Each field also had an 8x8 tent for each team
and water. There was a "Spirit Lounge" which was a big tent with some
couches, a couple big screen tvs, a bar, and free foosball, air hockey,
and pinball. The bar was well-manned but bottles of beer were $5 ($4
US). At no point during the entire week was there a free beer! The
grand finale party had lines 25 people long waiting to pay $5 for a
beer.

There was nightly entertainment which was talented but largely ignored
b/c most people had to worry about getting busses back to town to get
food. Trade night could have been a great party if they had just
brought some pizzas in, but they didn't. I was lucky enough not to
have to rely on the "free" busses for transportation, but they
certainly weren't the easy, often shuttles advertised. I heard stories
of 1.5 to 2.5 hours waiting.

One thing they did have was security. I've never seen so much security
at an ultimate tourney. Good thing too b/c I must have seen at least 3
or 4 non-tourney related people there all week and we wouldn't want to
give them free access to the cash bar. I suspect if we ever see a
budget posted it will show money wasted on security, entertainment, and
tents. Even with all that I still can't fathom where the $700,000 went.

[SATa...@gmail.com]

> I am one of the few people who played and had to return home right
> away, and I am happy to answer the question. Was it worth it to pay
> exhorbitant player fees and travel to Australia to play in Worlds?
> Yes. Was the tournament itself worth $330 per player? Not even close.
>
>

I felt the tournament was simply beyoud awesome - there isn't anything
much more I could have asked for! But when you look at the cost of
it... is the AU$450 worth it...there's a couple of criticisms that come
up.

> I was lucky enough not to
> have to rely on the "free" busses for transportation, but they
> certainly weren't the easy, often shuttles advertised. I heard stories
> of 1.5 to 2.5 hours waiting.

Our team was one of them. On the first day, we waited 1.5hours for a
bus, only to find out it was never coming (despite 3 advertised times
passing during that 1.5 hour wait). It's just as well we weren't
playing that day! We learned early on not to rely on what the booklet
said.

> There was nightly entertainment which was talented but largely ignored
> b/c most people had to worry about getting busses back to town to get
> food.

This was a shame because there were some very talented artists. Putting
on a mixtape would have been good enough for entertainment in the
evenings.

> The bar was well-manned but bottles of beer were $5 ($4
> US).

It was good beer, and the service was top notch, but I would have
settled for a uni student selling $2 Carlton Draught out of an esky!

> The grand finale party had lines 25 people long waiting to pay $5 for a
> beer.

As an event manager myself, don't get me started on this....

[Rachel Grindlay]

I thought the tournament was very professionally run. The fields were
superb - having played in most other major cities in Australia I don't think
there is any other facility which would come close. The buses to/from South
Perth were on time and we had no problems with missing buses and the bus
drivers even changed the route to drop us off right outside our hotel. The
shade tents were excellent as was the reliable supplies of water - no
memories like WUCC '02 in Hawaii of desperately needing to find shade and
there being none available. The scoreboards were easy to read from a
distance. Spirit lounge was fun and the entertainment was good - the last
buses being at 9pm was a bit of a party-killer but it didn't bother me too
much since it meant it got me home and to bed at a reasonable hour.

The queues at the final party are the only real negative that stick out.
That said, even after queueing for half an hour to get a drink, I had
already forgotten the hassle by the time I had got back on the dance floor
for the next set by the fantastic band. A$5 drinks are pretty reasonable in
my opinion but maybe I am scarred by the US$5 beer at WUCC '02.

Cost-wise from an Australian perspective it was reasonable. We paid ~A$150
(incl. team fee) for our Nationals this year (4-day event) compared with the
~A$450 (incl. team fee). Given Worlds was basically twice as long and the
facilities provided were definitely superior I felt I got good value for
money.

I think improvements that could've been made were the website and the score
updates/communication. They didn't affect the competitors much but
definitely those who were following from afar (like my boyfriend who snapped
his achilles two weeks before the tournament and had to stay home).

Rachel

#6 Wildcard, Sydney

"honorary klingon" <thaddeu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164055025.6...@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

[Justin]

free beer is a great thing for independently run tournaments. it's
about the worst idea conceivable for a semi-professional sports
organization/event, especially in the US.

i'd much rather see the UPA or WFDF license the concessions to help
cover event costs than subsidize someone's boat races or whatever.

[ctw...@gmail.com]

First no free beer and no fast internet(from 10am-6pm) makes me angry.

Expensive tournament, tournament party having long beer lines that cost
a lot, weak discounts on the beer, weak coverage of some non-favorite
or non-Australian teams and useless information about babies in the
newsletter, is not the greatest.

Tents on every field, great bands after every game and sandals in every
player pack, tons of security, totally overrated.

Awesome soft fields!, tons of buses that came often and to lots of
places to pick the bus up you just needed to read the schedule, nice
bus drivers, awesome volunteers, good organization, good photographers,
huge (non-free)beer tent with couches near good games, nice cleat bag,
awesome city with awesome beach, great people, makes me happy.
yours, CTW!
p.s. I do want to says thanks to the Gaia people for cleating my friend
up in midgame when his cleats blew out only letting him miss a couple
of points. This is not the first time that they have made me happy and
probably not the last.

[thefan]

Justin wrote:
> free beer is a great thing for independently run tournaments. it's
> about the worst idea conceivable for a semi-professional sports
> organization/event, especially in the US.

semi-pro? really? maybe free beer would be a terrible idea for a
semi-professional sports organization, however, for an ultimate
tournament, it's a superb idea.

> i'd much rather see the UPA or WFDF license the concessions to help
> cover event costs than subsidize someone's boat races or whatever.

think you're all alone here.

jimmy

[Knappy]

RE: "it's about the worst idea conceivable for a semi-professional

sports
organization/event, especially in the US."

actually, the worst idea conceivable is probably inviting you to the
post-game party.

lighten up, francis. Just what we need in this world, another lawyer.

Knappy
Beer lover

[Justin]

whatever. i've got nothing against beer at a tournie. in fact i think
it is a great idea. i just don't think my UPA membership dollars
should pay for it. i'd rather see money spent on having UV or another
provider put together free broadcasts of the tournament. but if you'd
prefer to have the UPA provide free beer instead that's ok.

[thefan]

seems to me that the beer provided at nationals, would be paid for by
player dues for nationals and not by your yearly UPA dues. i guess i
could be wrong, and if i am, you have a valid point. but i bet i'm
not.

jimmy

[Parinella]

Justin wrote:
> whatever. i've got nothing against beer at a tournie. in fact i think
> it is a great idea. i just don't think my UPA membership dollars
> should pay for it. i'd rather see money spent on having UV or another
> provider put together free broadcasts of the tournament. but if you'd
> prefer to have the UPA provide free beer instead that's ok.
>

It's not really clear whether it's the $45 player fee at Nationals or
the $40 membership fee paid by the Nationals players or the $40
membership fee paid by non-Nationals players that is going to the
"free" beer. Something like 7% of the UPA members play at the club
Nationals. That 7% might think that the UPA ought to spend membership
dues subsidizing Nationals in part or in full (after all, without
running Nationals, the UPA might have a tough time retaining many of
the members) because it is such a core function of the UPA.

It's a fair question, though.

[jt]

Are we talking UPA or Worlds??? UPA supplies beer, worlds does not.
So, you think that beer in sarasota should cost the players an
additional $5 for every beer they drink or are you glad worlds made
everybody pay for their extras? You must be a non-drinker.

I for one would love for my entry fee/dues be applied to the beer
truck/tent...

jt

[neurodancer]

That's a great statistic, 1 out of 14 UPA members makes it to the
Nationals. I would have thought the percentage would be lower (now I'm
really pissed I never`made it!) and I guess it will be if the
popularity keeps increasing. Ah, the tradeoffs made on the road to
glory...
ND

[Tom Brennan]

jt wrote:
> Are we talking UPA or Worlds??? UPA supplies beer, worlds does not.
> So, you think that beer in sarasota should cost the players an
> additional $5 for every beer they drink or are you glad worlds made
> everybody pay for their extras? You must be a non-drinker.
>
> I for one would love for my entry fee/dues be applied to the beer
> truck/tent...

I'm a drinker. But I hate beer. So I also hate all the tournaments
that supply free beer, because why should my entry fee subsidise someone
else's drinking beer?

Of course, if they were offering free wine or G&Ts that would be a
different story ...

[will.chri...@gmail.com]

Sounds like a big complaint is about beer, and there not being enough
of it?

Seems to me like people's priorities are mixed up for a World's level
competition. Just my opinion - as I'm not a big drinker anyway.

I'd be curious as to what the organizers paid for the fields. From what
I know of Perth and what I've heard, the fields sound like they were
beautiful. When we hosted Mixed Nats in Adelaide in 2005, we paid
several thousand dollars for 10 fields for 3 days. This included lining
the fields, field insurance (as the fields were used by many other
teams) watering, fertilizer, etc.

In my experience, people who complain using the phrase "I'd like to see
where $xxxx went" have never taken a look at the costs of a full
fledged tournament.

Just my two cents.

[matt.be...@gmail.com]

A general reply from a random no-name frisbee player (and UPA member)
(well, last year, due to moving/injury playing in the series wasn't
possible) (also if the lifetime membership didn't go up in price I
would definately go for that) I think beer (or any recreational
substance [if worlds were in amsterdam, would the ganja be provided?])
should be at no cost [or even wholesale price] to participants,
organizers, or attendees of the tournament.

I am of the mind that any UPA tournament or WUCC should be focused
promoting ultimate as a serious sport. At the World Cup, the
Superbowls, or the Olympics do they provide free alcohol? This
definately gets into the philosophy if whether Ultimate should look to
become something taken seriously or some party sport (just a level
above dischoops/beer pong [except beer pong actually has tournaments]).
Personally, I would like Ultimate to become more respected, even in
the States, Cricket gets more credit than Ultimate it seems.

Ultimately (heh) losing the 'party' image can only do good things for
the sport. If people were thinking "Well, shit, $8 beers at the
olympics? I don't think that is worth it."

Of course, this sprouts from teams not being sponsored. Anyways,
that's a topic for a whole 'nother topic.

[rickst]

At the World Cup, the
> Superbowls, or the Olympics do they provide free alcohol? This
> definately gets into the philosophy if whether Ultimate should look to
> become something taken seriously or some party sport (just a level
> above dischoops/beer pong [except beer pong actually has tournaments]).

Yes, the world cup and superbowl provides free alcohol. Have you ever
seen the winners spraying that foamy substance all over their
teammates? That's alcohol. Are professional sports locker rooms
stocked with beer? yes. Athletes drink.
Beer after outdoor labor makes sense- it's not as black and white as
"if there is beer involved it is obviously not a serious sport-
therefore joining the ranks of beer pong and eliminating it from
basketball and soccer"

Other sports have the luxury of making money off of spectators.
Ultimate, on the other hand, has to make money off of it's athletes.
And the athletes will want to drink after a game, just like any other
sport.

Another thing-- do spectators drink? Yes they do. Turn on a sporting
event and all you will see is ads for beer. So providing beer at an
athletic event only makes sense, for both athletes and spectators will
enjoy a drink.

Beer does not put up any barriers.
Beer does not inhibit ultimate from joining the ranks of the "elite"
sports.
Beer is something that should be easily accessed to all athletes.
Especially in the post-game.

i like beer.
hopefully, fields are near a convenient store---- or the TD would be
kindly enough to provide a keg or two.

[tom hunt]

As a great man once said, 'Here's to alcohol, the cause of, and
solution to, all of life's problems'

[Felix]

This thread is making me really want a beer.

I went to Worlds and thought it was great... free beer and/or pizza is
unheard of here in the UK, however the long, long queues for drinks at
the big party were awful (but didn't seem to stop a lot of people
getting drunk from what I saw).

Felix
Push Pass Productions
http://www.pushpass.co.uk/

[throw]

Matt Bertel wrote:

"Personally, I would like Ultimate to become more respected, even in
the States, Cricket gets more credit than Ultimate it seems"

very misc. comment: Two or three years ago I saw a flyer promoting
cricket here in this town of ~ 100,000.

I actually thought that flyer was a spoof of the ultimate flyers posted
by myself and others. I called the phone number and in the end was
convinced it was a gag by a local prankster and hipster kibitzer.

Come to find out very recently there is actually a world class cricket
team in this college town...

http://students.missouri.edu/~cricket/

Who'd a thunk..?

Every year more and more folks realize a disc is far better to throw or
chase than a ball.

Time is on our side, etc.

Later,
Peter Mc

www.ThisIsUltimate.com

http://www.umsystem.edu/whmc/mdsc

[nomad...@hotmail.com]

"hopefully, fields are near a convenient store---- or the TD would be
kindly enough to provide a keg or two. "

...good idea except the security was there to make sure we did not
bring any beer into the spirit tent. God for bid we try to save money
by buying beer at the Woolworth's (supermarket) and bringing it in.
Ofcourse I got away with that anyway but why not make Spirit lounge
BYOB? most of the restaurants in Perth were BYOB. sneaking beer in was
an unneeded stress.

I went to Worlds and had a blast. I agree that the event was well run
(ultimate-wise, not party-wise), the fields were awesome, the
scoreboards, stat keepers, shade tents, and sunblock were good ideas.
The volunteers were nice and worked hard. The photographers and
videographers were professional. And overall, the spirit of the players
was great to witness.

I rented a car to avoid buses but my team mainly used buses. Paul, the
boss of the buses, was a very nice and flexible guy. He actually helped
my team get dropped off at the city beach for a beach BBQ on wednesday
of tourney. The highlight of post game meals for me.

I have not been to Nationals and this was my first Worlds. So I was
"just happy to be there". But since it is over and we are debating the
"worth it" question. I'll add my two cents:

overall, I felt taken advantage of ($$ wise). I would gladly trade in
the contents of the player pack for 6 coupons for one free beer in the
cleats bag. That would get me a cleat bag and a free beer a night at
the spirit lounge.

Which gets me to the beer question. It was made clear that we would not
be getting free beer at the spirit lounge. But surely there is a
compromise between free beer all week and what we got in the spirit
lounge ($5 beers). Some possible compromises:

1) as suggested above, a coupon for one free beer per night per player.
2)allow teams to bring in there own beer into tent BYOB(with directions
to the Woolworth's which was only a mile away). It closed at 6pm every
night so teams would have to plan accordingly. If that posed trouble
for beer sponsor ...drop beer sponsor. i bought several cases
throughout the week and comparing prices shows that the players were
not getting any "deals" through beer sponsorship. BYOB would also
accomodate the drinkers who hate beer but drink wine, G&T's etc.
dropping the beer sponsor would lessen the need for bartenders and
hopefully lessen the overall costs.
3) charge alot throughout the week ($5 a beer) as they did but then
give all the players a break at the "great Australian BBQ" aka final
tournament party by either:

(a) not charging for beer
(b)allowing two free beers per player
(c) at the very least, have enough bartenders and bars at the final
party as to avoid the long lines that ensued. i know volunteers were
short handed but I am sure there were enough willing volunteers on each
team. or hire a local pub or two (Brass Monkey?) to cater final party.
OR hire a catering service to ensure enough bartenders and short lines.

Music: very talented but the buses leaving at 9pm and the high prices
pretty much made the spirit lounge a sparsely attended event every
night.

The band at TRADE night was freakin' awesome!!!! unfortunately, they
saved the best band for trade night so most players were busy trading
and not paying attention to SAMBALICIOUS. Why not have one of the duets
at trade night and advertise Sambalicious on another night and then
extend the buses to 11pm the night Sambalicious played?

AFTER PARTY: although it was in the player program, the most
frequently asked question I heard at Final party was "where in the heck
is the after party?" Why not advertise it at the Final party and/or
tell the bus drivers where it was?

Overall, I had a great time and would do it again (even if nothing
changed including high cost). But just because I would be willing to
pay out the you-know-what again ...does that mean it is ok to have me
and my fellow players pay out the wazoo ?

Have i mentioned playing at Worlds in Perth, Australia was freakin'
awesome!!! even if I didn't come back with the gold (my dream), it was
one great week. i can only hope i experience a week of ultimate like
that again.

A special thanks to Paul the bus boss.

ultimately,

Clayton
Old Sag #7

[spymaster]

> (c) at the very least, have enough bartenders and bars at the final
> party as to avoid the long lines that ensued. i know volunteers were
> short handed but I am sure there were enough willing volunteers on each
> team. or hire a local pub or two (Brass Monkey?) to cater final party.
> OR hire a catering service to ensure enough bartenders and short lines.

Volunteers had nothing to do with the final party. The bar staff were
all hired helpers. It didn't help that there were only four queues and
they had to pour every drink out of a can/bottle into a plastic cup.

The cost of beer was very disappointing. They were sponsored by a local
brewery which meant that they probably got the beer for cost if not
less, then proceeded to rape the players, volunteers and spectators for
proceeds.

[SATa...@gmail.com]

The Spirit Lounge was run by a catering company, so we should be going
mental at them, rather than the organisers.

One thing that wasn't really mentioned at the tournament to overseas
visitors (it's pretty clear to the locals already) is how tight liquor
laws are in Australia, particularly Western Australia. The sheer cost
of getting a license to serve alcohol at a non-bar venue is huge, and I
was pleasantly surprised to pay only $5 a bottle. At other temporary
bar set ups (eg: music festivals) you have to sell naming rights to
your first born child to get a drink!

The Friday night party was also the same deal - running the bar was
outsourced. The licensing laws for the stadium simply did not allow
them to (a)have volunteers running the bar and (b)have cheaper drinks.
The waiting time, well that was poor management by the stadium. It
seems that when they were told there would be a couple of thousand
people wanting to drink, they didn't quite believe them!

So in short - the WA government is to blame, not the organisers.

[wucc06td]

Free beer..or the lack of it still seems to be a hot issue. Surprises
me frankly. But that's the beauty of us humans, we all want different
things. Anyway a few points of view from the TD..

Free beer - why didn't we supply it. A key reason was that one of our
major sponsors, Heathway, stopped us from offering such. Even
discounted beer was an issue but we got around this. Healthway
proivided us with funding to go out to over 50 schools leading up to
Worlds to promote the event. Another reason - what about those people
who don't drink beer, how would they feel about their fee being spent
on subsidising the drinkers? My view was that beer is an out of pocket
expense, not essential to the running of the event, so was not
subsideised by the player fee. We did receive beer (and wine) from our
sponsors at a discounted rate and passed on some of this saving. Yes we
did make money - no aplogies here, no one forced people to buy a beer.
We also had to ensure that the sales covered the costs associated with
running the venue. Not sure the 'raping players etc' is a good choice
of words...a tad harsh.

Why no BYO - liquor licensing laws in WA would have made this near
impossible for an event of this size. There are very strict laws in WA.

Crowds, or lack of in the Spirit Lounge - you must have been in a
different venue. We were very happy with the crowds, and Trade Night
saw plenty of people enjoy both band and trading.

Queues for beer at the final party - apologies here. I argued long and
hard with the venue manager on the night, after having him called in
from home to address the problem. They would not budge on pouring the
beer or adding people to serve. It was not suitable and I was not happy
- still not, and we haven't finished with the issue. All that said, as
someone has pointed out, it looked like people did get enough beer to
enjoy themselves. Certainly the dance floor was packed. As for moving
to a pub....no pub in Perth could accomodate 2,000 people. Plus there
were serious transport issues in moving everyone to a secondary venue.

Bus service - surprised to hear 'many people had complaints'. Busses
ran at the worst every 1/2 hour. There were problems on day 1 & 2 but
quickly rectified. As has been pointed out - Paul and Dave from the bus
company were very flexible and accomodating. Try and move 1700 people
to and from the fields at all different times of the day and night and
to 3 different accomodation zones, without error..not easy. I will pat
ourselves on the back with this one..I think we got it pretty well
right. Sorry to the Thundedring Herd team for leaving them stranded on
day 1 though.

Security - yes there was plenty of it. Again, no apologies here..it was
there for player safety. Maybe we over catered...but how much is too
much?..you don't usualy find out until it's a problem.

I appreciate all the feedback. And with an event of this scale we will
never be able to satisfy everyone. Was the event worth the $'s? Again
this is an individual call. I felt we set a fee that was fair...As I
said sometime back we will publish a budget once the accounts are
finalised. I suppose you can make the final call then.

Thanks to all who supported the event by making the trip 'down under'.
And a big congratulations to the winners..

Brian - TD WUCC 2006

[nomad...@hotmail.com]

Brian,
I'm glad you are still tuned into players' reactions. thanks.

But try to look at things from a players perspective for awhile. I am
also a TD myself and I also volunteer and help the TD of Wildwood, one
of the largest beach tournies in the world that attracts over 2000
players. So I do realize the problems of running a large event like the
one you just ran. the TD of Wildwood goes way out of his way to make
sure the players are happy and get their moneys worth.

some more questions:
1)could you please explain a little more about the benefits of having
Healthway as a sponsor? advertising at 50 schools does not seem to
outweigh the benefits that would solve the beer issue. It seemed to
handcuff your options as a TD more than the benefits of helping you
promote the tourney.
What schools? and how many of these students at these schools actually
went to the tourney to watch? It looked like there were NOT many
"locals" watching finals. Maybe 20. maybe. and as I found out on the
first day, The University of Western Australia started summer break the
week of tourney.

2)Trade night was alot of fun. But to say "many" people enjoyed both
trading AND dancing to band is a big stretch. there was about 20-30
people dancing at one time at the most. this is not a big deal. I just
think that Sambalicious was so good that you could have had a bigger
dance crowd on another night (if buses were extended a little later
than 9pm) and use the duet folks for trade night ...or have some dance
music playing.

3)spirit lounge crowds were pretty big after games were played and
maybe dinner. But after that it cleared out very quickly. this may be
good from organisers perspective. But from player perspective it was
disappointing. Since this was my first worlds, I went with some
veterans on our team (and who had both attended a bunch of other
worlds) on the first night to attend the much anticipated "opening
party" that these vets were anticipating as a good time. It was totally
dead.

remember there was 1700 players. to be happy with a crowd of 30-40 is
fine if that was what you were hoping for. Just don't paint a picture
like the parties were well attended. Keep it real.

Finally, you knew people were complaining in march about costs. then
again before tourney. then during tourney. and now on RSD a couple
weeks afterwards...

so statements like "We did receive beer (and wine) from our

> sponsors at a discounted rate and passed on some of this saving. Yes we
> did make money - no aplogies here, no one forced people to buy a beer."

rubbing it in our faces that you made money off of us is in bad taste.
this includes posting a "news article" on the website on how Perth's
business raked in 2.3 million dollars due to WORLDS. good for you. Good
for Perth's economy. But how do you think players feel as they get back
to reality with empty bank accounts, debts and savings accounts
depleted?

again, I had a great time. and would do it again even if the costs
remained the same. but knowing the reality of the circumstances and
then rubbing it in my face seems to be the same attitude you had in
march, october and now. I was hoping you could learn from the
experience and the player feed back.

Again. we could debate this for years. overall, it was well run and it
was one of the best weeks of my ultimate life. I am sure you feel very
proud to have pulled it off with no major problems. You are owed a
congratulations! If you ever go to Wildwood, I would be happy to buy
you a beer, shot, drink or a cotton candy for your efforts. A Toast to
you. CHEERS! and that drink/snack would be free by the way.

Clayton

[Hotpants]

wucc06td wrote:
>. Another reason - what about those people
> who don't drink beer, how would they feel about their fee being spent
> on subsidising the drinkers? My view was that beer is an out of pocket
> expense, not essential to the running of the event, so was not

> subsideised by the player fee. ..

>
> Brian - TD WUCC 2006
>

If your criterion for spending funds is whether or not it is essential
to the running of the event, than how can you justify spending money on
anything other than fields, buses, and water.

It seems the accessories, security, and spirit lounge were all perks
that made the tournament more enjoyable to some; but by that logic so
would have heavily subsidized beer. While RSD isn't an accurate
sampling of the players' attitudes, I would be shocked if the majority
of participates didn't want at least some tournament money spent on
supplying alcohol.

With that said, why not just admit supplying free beer was something
the td's didn't want to do, regardless of player attitudes, instead of
trying to pretend that it was all done in the participants' best
interest.

But I couldn't even afford the plane ticket so my opinion doesn't
really count...

[jos...@greenoughgroup.com]

I went to worlds and thought that it was very well organized in terms
of playing needs. We had great fields, always had water, scorekeepers
and were mostly successful with buses. 1 two hour wait for part of our
team. I am going to wait until I see a budget published before I talk
about the costs verses what I got but I will comment on beer.

I think that it was fine that the tournament directors did not
subsidize beer at the tournament. They provided a way for people to
get access to it given Western Australia tight liquor rules. Our team
had issues working with the Brass Monkey bar for our party and not
being able to get a drink special because they are audited all the
time. They had a local liquor board guy in the bar all night of our
party to watch the bartenders so I can understand that it might have
been tough to allow players to bring their own to the main event.
There was a vendor who sold beer to the public and that was the minimum
in my mind. Beer was also expensive in general in WA so $5 a beer was
not that bad compared to some of the bars/restaurants.

It is time for the players to grow up and just buy your own if you want
it rather than having it subsidized by other people who chose not to
drink or are underage in the US (we had a 19 year old on our team at
nationals). I enjoy a beer as much as the next guy but at a major
event like this I do not expect the TD to provide alcohol for me when I
am playing and the rest of the time I am just a fan watching the
showcase field. Why would they provide beer for the fans? I realize
that this may be an unpopular stance but it is probably time for the
free beer to disappear from event budgets like nationals or worlds.

There was a vendor to provide beer and it sounds like the TD was pissed
about the level of service that vendor gave the event. I doubt that it
was their plan to have long lines so I will cut Brian a lot of slack on
that one. When the budget is published we can look at it and see where
the money went and then make comments.

When I run a tournament I am very clear whether tournament money is
going to beer and let people make a choice. Maybe the only complaint
might have been that the TD didn't publicize that it was not part of
the budget earlier so people could make their own arrangements or bring
money but my guess was that people had it figured out after the first
day.

Joshua
Brass Monkey #99

[SATa...@gmail.com]

> I realize that this may be an unpopular stance but it is probably time for the
> free beer to disappear from event budgets like nationals or worlds.

...especially if ultimate is going to be taken seriously as a sport.

[jbrose]

The issue isn't whether the tourney should have provided "free" beer,
the issue is whether the tourney should have cost $330 a player in
light of the fact that there was no beer and hardly any food provided
for that fee. Again, the money is spent, we had a great time, and it's
unlikely Perth will be hosting Worlds again in the next several
decades, so it may seem pointless to discuss the issue further, but
there may be something to be learned from the experience.

UPA National player fees are $50. Worlds in Hawaii player fees were
$175. Worlds in Perth were $330. The issue of high player fees was
raised 8 months before the tourney on rsd. The td's rseponse was
basically, "hey, it's gonna be worth it, you'll see." The issue was
raised again in July on the Worlds electronic bulletin board when the
td was asked if he could look into ways to cut costs to reduce player
fees. The td's response was "hey, we already dealt with this issue on
rsd", and "it's only another $50 a day which is nothing compared to
plane fare" and "it's gonna be great, just wait and see."

Whether true or not, it appeared the tournament organizer(s) had very
little interest in reducing player fees. It is clear they had no
interest in player feedback on the issue. It seemed the td, and WFDF
by proxy, were going to put on the tourney they were going to put on,
and we were either going to pay the cost of it or not go. I suppose
that's how most tournaments are run, but it seems like Worlds should be
different. Other tournaments have to make it worthwhile or teams won't
play in them. Worlds doesn't. The chance to play for a world title is
worth a lot. It would be a shame if the WFDF and future Worlds' tds
took advantage of that value by not being responsive to players'
concerns and by making things like bringing money into a local economy
more important than the players' experience.

[kbfreder]

While all these discussions may be moot until we see the final budget,
I heard that the costs for maintaining and preparing the fields were
quite large. Western Australia was experiencing a drought, so to
water, and I believe in some cases re-sod, the fields may have cost
more than anyone is taking into account here on RSD. As a result, the
fields were, imho, quite nice. Comparable to if not better than the
fields in Sarasota.

Also, I feel the shade tents are not to be discounted. The heat & sun
would have been unbearable for those of us coming from cold climes, so
to have shade right there on the sidelines was crucial.

I'm a boozer with the best of them, but I completely understand the
necessity of dissociating the inclusion of free beer from the cost of
the tourney in this case (liquor laws, sponsors).

-Kendra
#18 Slow White

[thefan]

Saddlebot, i think this was already adressed, and maybe we need a whole
new thread to really get down to it, but this idea that free beer makes
the sport not serious is pretty damn silly. remember when the Boston
RedSox came back from 3-0 down to beat the Yanks and talked about the
whiskey they drank before the game. don't remember anyone calling
baseball bush league. ever see them celebrate after winning
Basketball/Football/Hockey/Soccer/Anything titles in the locker room.
those guys are literally wearing alcohol. We don't call those sports
"not serious." Hell, i ran a marathon once and they provided free
beer. But maybe running 26 miles and change isn't serious either.
Perhaps you've watched a sporting event on TV (pick most any pro sport)
and noticed the multitude of beer commercials. But those guys aren't
serious athletes.

This thread is about the "worth" of worlds $$ wise. and who knows,
with the liquor laws and whatever, maybe $5 a beer was the best they
could do down there. But to insinuate that the presence of alcohol at
a sporting event somehow decreases the value or seriousness of that
sport is just stupid. Should we assume then that you would be against
having, say, Michelob Ultra (beer flavored water in my opinion, but
that's something else) sponser our sport in some way? That that would
somehow make our sport less serious?

maybe ultimate is not taken seriously because ultimate players take
themselves soooo seriously. maybe it's the white v rainbow colored
dark team that takes away from our credibility. or the two guys over
there on field 12 in sequined skirts. wasn't it back in 99 that Jockey
did some sponsoring of College Nationals, and people posted complaints
that we were sponsored by an under garment company? so was Jordan, but
he aint' that serious either.

The fact is as someone made the sweeping generalization earlier,
atheletes like beer. it's cold and refreshing and tastes good after
you work hard for something. It's a great way to celebrate with your
friends and teammates. Beer is as much a part of american sports as
the ball, and has nothing to do with our sport not "being serious."
there are plenty of other reasons for that and lots of people don't
want to do anything about it. Besides, if i'm going to watch a game
that stalls every little bit so i can watch two guys argue about a
travel and pirouet around showing how their foot did or didn't move, i
might like something a little stronger than beer.

Jimmy

[throw]

I can't imagine traveling 1/2 way around the globe to compete with
teams from far away lands and allowing pricey beer be a thorn in my
side.

"Cheapskates" I say to the players moaning about beer prices at an
int'l event.

Peter Mc
www.ThisIsUltimate.com

[former...@yahoo.com]

This isn't about the price of beer. It is about spending a lot of money
and not getting much in return. Beer in WA was $8 in many bars, so the
$5 bottles in the lounge were actually a good deal. My team paid more
than $12,000 in team and individual fees and got back about $1,500 in
player packs. Add to that the cost of a meal plan, airfare and lodging
and you can see why players are frustrated. Cheapskates?
It wasn't all bad. The fields were even better than Sarasota and there
was plenty of water, ice and tents.
It became clear to me, at some point, that the purpose of this Worlds
was to promote Ultimate in Western Australia, not to provide players
with the best experience possible. I hope it worked.

[Alex Morrone]

Ok so a bit more than 10% of the player fee went to give you free gear,
what did you expect? If they raised the player fee an extra $100 to
give you $100 of gear you would have complained about that and said to
cut the price $100. And do you expect them to reimburse your
flights/lodging/meal plan? The meals were very reasonable and im
confident that most of the player fee was used effectively, im sure
that it wasnt perfect but you shouldnt spend more time complaining
about the tournament than you did playing in the tournament.
I personally had a great time and thank all the people who helped put
it together if they read this stuff.

[nomad...@hotmail.com]

Ok, now i am getting angry. Anyone complaining about costs vs. what we
got are now called cheap skates?

THAT IS BS !!!!!!!!

Maybe my team was the only team that felt their budgets were squeezed
by deciding to go to Perth. we all decided to make this financial
sacrifice (flights, cost of living in WA, hotels etc). But it was major
strain. The fact that the player and tourney fees added to this strain
was frustrating when you consider what we got in return.

That makes me a cheap skate? I am sorry that my financial situation is
such that I am sensitive to being charged more than I need to. Maybe
those that have the opinion that this issue is no big deal, we
shouldn't complain and we are cheap for doing so have $$ to burn.
I don't. Are you suggesting that Worlds should only be enjoyed by those
ultimate players that are rich? I take pride in the fact that Ultimate
is NOT an elitist sport.

Again, we knew how much we would have to pay out of pocket (lodging,
time off of work, flights etc). we felt it was worth the trip. But we
also had faith that our $$ that went to running the tourney would be
well worth it. Since we feel the TD et al did not make this a priority
...we feel frustrated. This makes us cheap?
I am happy for the players whose financial situation is such that this
trip ($$-wise) was no big deal. But please understand that their are
other players who may not have as fat a wallet as yours.

we knew it would cost alot ...we just wanted fair value for our money.

calling us cheap skates is way below the belt.

clayton

[throw]

Clayton,

"Cheapskate" is a term of endearment.

have a good weekend

Peter Mc
www.thisisultimate.com

[Tom Brennan]

jbrose wrote:
> UPA National player fees are $50. Worlds in Hawaii player fees were
> $175. Worlds in Perth were $330.

Of course the cost was much greater for US players compared to Hawaii.
The $US has declined 40% against the $A since August 2002.

In Australian Dollars, Worlds in Hawaii was $320. And if you adjust for
inflation over the past 4 years, it was about $360 in today's $A terms.
Not a huge difference.

[Alex Morrone]

Good to know someones putting their education to use, good call
Brennan.

[Theodore Hex]

nomad...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I take pride in the fact that Ultimate
> is NOT an elitist sport.
>

Actually it is. But this is for another thread....

[stick]

I've been to several world's. Compared to the others this was a great
tournament.
But I would like to comment on the "commentators" at world's. These
guys were a bunch of dumbasses.
For those of you who weren't there. The tournament had a couple of
guys be commentators during the showcase games and finals. During the
Brass Monkey showcase game on Thursday those guys never shut up. It was
so bad the players on the field could not hear calls being made. And it
wasn't even good commentating. Its was stupid comments almost to the
point of heckling individual players over the loud speaker. Or reading
quotes from some book that had nothing to do with Ultimate. If they did
pay enough attention to the game when a call was made they didn't even
come close to get it correct. After that game I went to the tournament
officials to limit there comments to between points. It didn't help.
I may be wrong but when you commentate on a game your supposed to
remain neutral. During Master's finals, they came over the loud speaker
announcing their support of the Japanese team. When the game was tied
at 16-16. We were having trouble hearing to begin with. (The other
Japananese teams really supported Vegi). The these morons announced to
the crowd game to 18. We pulled, they scored, game over 17-16.
They did the same crap on Saturday during the other finals. (I don't
have a problem with them rooting for the Aussie team after all we are
in Australia.) I felt sorry for the locals who had never seen the sport
until Sat.
Before our final on Friday someone from the tournament came to OLD
SAG and asked if we could watch our language because they were trying
to promote Ultimate to Western Australia tourism. But they turn a group
of guys loose with a microphone who sound like they know very little
about the sport.
So to sum it up the tournament was great well worth the trip. But
some the flash of finals was ruined by "commentators."
Congratulations to Vegi for a well played game. They never let up and
it payed in the end.

[ut.b...@gmail.com]

I hear that pro athletes have to go to cost-co before big games and by
case after case of champagne with their own money because the owners
want to be taken seriously. Gee-whiz that's rough!

[Crash]

Why do so many posters, like rickst, here, try to correlate "victory
champagne" with "free beer for the players"?

Other than the Boston Red Sox whiskey anecdote, do people really
believe that top level athletes drink the night before important games?
But i tell ya what; i betcha that they paid for the whiskey out of
their own pocket. The MLBA wasn't providing them with "World Series
whiskey". If they had lost after drinking the whiskey how would that
story have been framed, if it had gotten out?

No one in this thread suggested not having beer at Worlds, or any other
ultimate event. What they suggested was that providing beer to the
competitors throughout tournament such as Worlds was unnecessary, and
perhaps antithetical, to ultimate being taken as a serious sport. What
other sports provide alcohol for the competitors during a
tournament/event? I'd venture a guess at rugby, but that seems to be
the exception, not the rule.

I'm all for free beer at Fools, Potlatch, Wildwood, etc, just don't
think it's really necessary for events like worlds/nationals. I don't
see the party as being central to what those events are about.

Crash