the real problem...

[tk]

with ultimate isn't the mixed division diluting those other divisions.

it's actually sport stacking. espn2 is currently showing sport
stacking. how can ultimate compete?

welcome to beyond the fringe.

[thefan]

now is the time to sit down and ask ourselves some hard questions.

why is sport stacking on ESPN (or any other mainstream television
network) and ultimate is relegated to making some kat from Vancouver
trek all the way down to Florida with his own crew, own equipment and
probably using his own money to film the game, edit the game and then
market the game on a DVD that you have to mail order.

No slam to Rob or any of the other saints at UltiVillage, but damn,
Sport Stacking?

i mean, certainly there has got to be some concrete reason why sport
stacking is on TV and ultimate is on UTV. i get poker. and i know the
outdoor games has Cabella to give it lots of money. but sport
stacking? how did they get sponsorship/accreditation/popular demand
and leave ultimate out in the cold? Is there a person, or a crystal
ball or some chicken bones we can ask?

at least then, we could decide we don't want to do anything about it.
as it sits right now, i wonder why i have to buy a special DirecTV
package or a pack of DVD's to watch ultimate, while the nerd down the
street can sit down in front of his basic cable and watch sport
stacking, or maybe paintball.

jimmy

[pooner]

i blame the fucking hippies. and their little dogs, too.

[thefan]

pooner wrote:
> i blame the fucking hippies. and their little dogs, too.

dogs don't have two minute discussions about stalls, travels and
up/down calls. neither do dogs perform landsharks or create team
cheers with expletives in them.

which could be a couple more reasons we can't find a sponsor.

jimmy

[Darren....@gmail.com]

They don't have to show it live. Just cut out all the boring/not
suitable for children parts, just like they do with poker.

On Nov 3, 5:08 pm, "thefan" <jimmyholtz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> pooner wrote:

> > i blame the fucking hippies. and their little dogs, too.dogs don't have two minute discussions about stalls, travels and

[see_el_bee]

ahh, no. it's the hippies.

[tk]

definitely the hippies.

ya know, if the ultimate community actually supported itself, that
might help. it's really a joke listening to people bitch about the
mixed division. diluting the game. give me a break.

i'm just waiting for the paintball challenge. that's exciting.

[Seamus]

This is a ridiculous argument.

Does the majority of Ultimate players want to be placed in the same
category as Sport Stacking?

[dsb]

This is easy guys. The cost of producing the sports stacking shows are
so ridiculously cheap. All they need is a couple cameras and a couple
talents and that's it.

There is a lot of money in paintball - way way way way more than
ultimate frisbee. Pretty interesting when you think of it that all the
major US sports require a lot of expensive resources... a brave new
world and all that.

All you see on ESPN consists of the big money sports and the
cheap-production filler stuff like sport stacking and billiards and
spelling bees. Could ultimate make it to the cheap production filler
level? Maybe.

Course, soccer is comparably expensive resources-wise. And it can't
make any ground in the US. Likely a coincidence, saying as it does
well in europe... maybe.

ANYWAYS, let's stop kidding ourselves that it has anything to do with
anything beyond MONEY. Either the UPA can get to the point where it
can provide a professional looking show to ESPN on the cheap, or we all
start wearing layout pads and using catching gloves.

[left...@hotmail.com]

OK, am I the only one who hasn't the foggiest idea what sport stacking
is?? Is that where they try to cram multiple sports onto one field?
Or is it some form of pancake eating contest? If not, what do they
stack and what are they sporting? Isn't Ultimate "sport stacking"
already with the Vert and Ho?

[mui...@gmail.com]

I'm pretty sure it's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0YgrUKfTcA

[Elizabeth D Murray]

http://www.worldsportstackingassociation.org/

"It's a track meet for your handsŠ at Warp Speed!"

http://www.speedstacks.com/

On 11/3/06 4:22 PM, in article
1162599777.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com,

[see_el_bee]

I guess I don't understand why people are so concerned with our little
sport making the 'big-time' on ESPN... What's ends do you desire?

Personally, some things are better reserved for their little
sub-culture to enjoy. Let the rest of the world stare blankly at us
frisbee throwers.

Plus, it's been my experience that some things tend to get shittier the
more popular they become.

Yeah, it would be super sweet to have sponsors and free shit and
cheerleaders and bud light commericals and to make a whole stinking
pile of money doing it, but what would happen to the culture of
ultimate? is it worth 'selling out'? What would the hippies do?!

We got a pretty sweet gig going on right now, let's just enjoy it for
what it's worth.

-CLB-

p.s. don't get me wrong, i'm all for the growth of ultimate, but i
guess i prefer a more organic growth. go toss with some
midschoolers/high schoolers in your neighborhood and give them the
discs. grassroots baby.

p.p.s. and fuck espn anyway. what about that cable channel that
features the tour and fishing and hunting and stuff? whatever it's
called. they seem to feature programs that are more against the
grain...

p.p.p.s. oh yeah, almost forgot - play dischoops. it's fun (tm).

[spet...@wilmingtongi.com]

Holtzman,

I spent an hour a couple weeks ago talking with an ESPN producer
about Ultimate. He knew about the sport and said it had been a topic
of discussion at several meetings that he had attended. He thought it
was close to making it on ESPN-U. He explained a bunch of details
about what it would take for it to make it on TV. First of which was a
defined time slot of an hour or 90 minutes live. If ultimate as we
know it seeks to be on TV it needs a system to keep it moving with
spectators knowing what's going on. There is also issues of the number
of cameras and the venues that host the events to make it camera
freindly. It was 4:00am when I had this conversation so I forgot the
rest of the details but you're on the right track.

Steve

[spet...@wilmingtongi.com]

Holtzman,

I spent an hour a couple weeks ago talking with an ESPN producer
about Ultimate. He knew about the sport and said it had been a topic
of discussion at several meetings that he had attended. He thought it
was close to making it on ESPN-U. He explained a bunch of details
about what it would take for it to make it on TV. First of which was a
defined time slot of an hour or 90 minutes live. If ultimate as we
know it seeks to be on TV it needs a system to keep it moving with
spectators knowing what's going on. There is also issues of the number
of cameras and the venues that host the events to make it camera
freindly. It was 4:00am when I had this conversation so I forgot the
rest of the details but you're on the right track.

Steve

[Russell T]

Right on CLB. Well spoken. Couldn't have said it better myself. My
only addition would be to tell all those star-f*ckers to let go of the
whole ultimate/ESPN fantasy. Try being a little more creative than
fantasizing about chis berman & stuart scott all the time. I mean to
each their own, and whatever gets you off, and all that jazz, but come
on.

Let it go.

[tk]

aww shoot, i was just having a little fun. ultimate is an awesome
time. great recreation.

and rsd...good solid entertainment.

[thefan]

you two are terrible. "grass roots?" "organic?" are you selling
produce or growth for the sport. it's simple numbers. lets say that
all of the UPA members take one middle schooler under their wing.
yeah, that's crazy. let's say that there are some middle schoolers
taken under someones wing and introduced to ultimate directly by
teacher, neighbor, friends older sibling or whomever. now let's
imagine that another sport which is struggling in popularity in this
country makes some major moves to get that sport on television. who is
going to reach more players with NO Experience? i know, ask the USYSA,
the U. S. Youth Soccer Association, who in 1988 nearly bankrupt itself
to make sure that the 90 world cup would have games shown without
commercials, then made a big push for the cup in 94 to be here in the
states. riding off of this relative success, they were able to get TV
time for college games and USL games, which is where you can watch
Steve Nash's brother play for some team in Canada. i think they're
youth program jumped in participation something on the order of 1000
percent in those 12-18 years.

it's about a lot more than Chris Berman or Stuart Scott coming up with
a new catch phrase for an ultimate play, it's about respect,
entertainment, notoriety maybe, or maybe it's about not having to
explain my sport to someone with absolutely no frame of reference every
time i tell them what i'm doing over the weekend. and explaining it
and having them look me in the eye when i'm done and say, "what about
the dogs? where do they come in?"

and then there's this total myth that if ultimate became popular and on
tv and stuff, we'd all be a bunch of sell outs. No one would play for
the "love" any more.

SHENNANIGANS! let's examing Kobe Bryant. a world class slime ball
most would agree. but would you ever question his love for basketball?
i bet not. not when he has already made enough money to support all
the UPA for a lifetime, and won a few championship rings, yet continues
to train for 5 hrs a day in the off season. rack up something like
10,000 jumpshots a week just to "stay sharp", and play through the flu,
shin splints and general disdain from most of the american populace.
if he didn't love basketball, he'd just take his money, his super
attractive and evidently forgiving wife, and move. or not. but he
sure don't need the paycheck.

or the other myth, that somehow the rest of us that play would be left
out in the cold if ultimate made the bigtime. it'd be just like in the
70's when basketball started to take off and the police cut down all
the basketball goals in all the driveways in america. or how they
banned thanksgiving day backyard football when the current NFL was
formed. No, the only thing that would be different if ultimate had pro
teams with highly paid atheletes and "evil" tv time and huge stadiums
full of fans cheering and getting fired up about ultimate is that those
of us that didnt' play for those teams could watch those teams, or
highlights of those teams on TV, after dinner, once we got home from
playing in our league/y/club/intramural/college game.

i can hear it now: "no, please, not another highlight reel of the
sport i love on television!" "no, i don't want to watch the UPA Club
Championship game on TV with highlights of the best plays. no, i want
to refresh the upa score reporter page every 10 minutes so i can have
the scores and no idea how it happened" or, from a growth standpoint,
"no, please let's not make the sport known by parents so they can have
some form of reference when little ricky/suzy comes home and wants to
join the local youth ultimate league"

you know what, come to think of it, i hope no one finds out about this
sport i love. i mean that's how you truely prove that you love
something, is to keep it to yourself and want as few people as possible
to find out about it. that and ultimate would only get in the way of
baseball. and we all know how exciting baseball is.

jimmy

[thefan]

i'm sorry Steve Peterson from Wilmington. your conduct has no place on
this forum. why do you insist on introducing solutions to problems
that face our community with out insulting someone or their view on
ultimate or the growth there of. i see your constructive criticism and
suggestion for making our sport more palatable to a television
audience, but i fear it is misplaced on this news group and completely
wasted. Your views and information are extemely important and
practical but your delivery is just not what it needs to be.

please accuse someone of selling their soul and or fantasizing about
Chris Berman and Stuart Scott in an all out Jell-O wrestling match and
misplacing thier desire to introduce our sport to people who are not in
middle school in Boston, Seattle or that "P" school in atlanta.
Paiedeia? Paedaea? that one.

holtzman

[jt]

thefan wrote:
> that and ultimate would only get in the way of
> baseball. and we all know how exciting baseball is.
>
> jimmy

Was a "fan"tastic post until u bashed baseball. What is wrong with a
game that u swing a stick? If it wasn't for baseball, I might have
played ultimate sooner in my lifetime....Come to think of it...hmmm

jt

[see_el_bee]

well, jimmy - you bring up some interesting points... and you do so
with valid information and sarcastic burns. nicely done.

let me turn the other cheek, cuz i just got bitch slapped.

-chris lb-

[Squeege]

Maybe it's just me, but I dont think I'm ready to throw the McDonald's
Super-Disc across the Bank of America Ultimate Stadium to the receiving
Pepsi Syracuse Scooby-Doom while wearing my Nike Ulti-cleats 4 after my
team does a cheer including the words "unbeatable savings" and "Price
Chopper," but again, maybe it's just me...

-Squeege

[longf...@juno.com]

Then don't play in the Stadiums or on Sponsored teams. No one is
twisting your arm. Stay home and play summer league.

I find it ridiculous that these types of arguments are even made
considering the UPA or the sport at large has not been able to capture
even one big money sponsor. Worry about selling out all you want, but
I and a majority of my teammates would like to have a free (or even
discounted) plane ticket every once in a while. Once that happens, I
will START thinking that MAYBE sometime in the future we MIGHT have to
put some checks and balances in place.

E

[D. Smith]

Don't worry, you're not good enough to go pro anyway. And when was the
last time you heard a pro sports team perform a cheer for their
sponsors?!?

[thefan]

sorry dude, i just don't like baseball. love to watch soccer. maybe
the soul of stalin or marx lies within my chest.

or because i was TERRIBLE at baseball as a kid. those things are tough
on a guy.

jimmy

[Daag Alemayehu]

I read this and I was about to say, "Yeah, me too!" Then I realized
that you said that you DON'T think you're ready for that. What's wrong
with you, man??

[Kebo]

This argument is ridiculous, flat out ridiculous.

1) How often is Spalding, Wilson and whoever else makes the balls
slapped with a logo at pro-level sports?
2) Would you rather play at a park named after a famed bigot (true
story), where the few grassy parts of the field are covered with discs
to mark holes, meanwhile instead of flipping for O or D, or wind, you
end up flipping for uphill/downhill?
3) I have no idea what the pepsi syracuse is supposed to represent
4) As opposed to wearing NIKE soccer cleats?
5) Pro sports athletes generally don't do cheers.

Considering the thousands of dollars I lost (either spent on cleats,
travel, accomadations, or on missed wages because I couldn't work) this
summer/fall alone, I would much rather get paid then to pay, but even
discounts would be nice.

[thefan]

D, i'll tell you what's wrong with the guy. he doesn't pay attention
to what he reads, or doesn't read posts before he replies, or is a
numbskull. not only was his post real dumb. real dumb, but it ignored
an entire paragraph in the one he was refuting. that paragraph said
something like "if'n you don't want to play for a pro ultimate team
somewhere, then don't. just play summer/y/intramural/hat league"

then there is the obvious breaking of all sorts of NCAA rules when he
assumes Syracuse's Scooby Doom ultimate team would be sponsored by
Pepsi (because we all refer to the other sell out sports at Syracuse as
the Pepsi/Budweiser/Rogaine Orange). meanwhile he assumes that
McDonalds is going to buy out Discraft just like Burger King and Taco
Bell bought Spaulding and Rawlings respectively. Also he has obviously
never paid attention to the cheer that teams tend to give in the
huddles when the pre-game cameras get in there. Real sell out stuff
like "Win!" and "Team!". Does he not know that ultimate has got to be
one of the few, if not only sport where a team cheer constitutes a
reason for the team poet to opine on the weather, field conditions and
upcoming party?

that being said, if i were given the opportunity, i would sky the shit
out of this Squeegey character in my Adidas AirDisc Quatro cleats
underneath the lights of Nextel/Sprint Stadium, then spike the official
Henry James BBQ Flying Platter and give a shout out to Dick's Sporting
goods for providing our team jerseys.

Scooby-Doom . . . Pepsi . . . hilarious. they would obviously be
sponsored by Purina.

jimmy

[thefan]

please don't try to reason with this man. he has no use for that.

jimmy

[drich]

kebo can you throw a forehand yet?

[kelcie]

purina can't sponsor anything ultimate-related. they're too busy
buying alcohol for vet students.

[drich]

I asked you a question

On Nov 11, 5:07 pm, "drich" <david.mark.richard...@gmail.com> wrote:
> kebocan you throw a forehand yet?