so....what about the observing at the 8s, huh?
Reggie Fanelli
we made some adjustments.
we had some areas of concentration.
made some changes and additions.
i think everything we worked on made the game more smooth...better.
i like the athletes calling fouls and observers ruling in disputes. i
hope ultimate can always stay like that.
we used a whistle one game...and maybe we'll try two games side by
side next 8s to see if it's confusing.
observer restarting the disc is great.
i could call 93% of all picks if that were an observer call.
i could also call about 127 holds and hooks and grabs and blocks
between cutters and defenders.....but the ATHLETES don't even call
them....they just keep running hard, playing good hard physical
ultimate. So....that's another reason i like the athletes calling the
fouls. I could have handed out 12 TMF for holding, but the athletes
didn't even complain about it.
i like that there were very few 'ground taps' and even 'disc taps'
with the observer restart.
in observed games, the rule should be that, in the event of a double
team, the observer should suspend the stall count(oh, assuming there's
observer stall count, of course). No going back two or
whatever...just suspend the stall count. If the thrower wants to call
double team foul or violation...they have that rite too.
15 sec if the disc is turned over on the sideline between the goal
lines to put the disc back into play, rather than the current 20 sec.
20 sec in the endzone, i guess and 10 on the field.
we tried to speed up the disputed foul calls by ruling as soon as we
heard 'contest' and one of the athletes looked at us. we ASSUMED that
since they said contest and turned to us, that they were "coming to
us".
yeah....jason, i think, loved the whistle experiment for all of the
obvious, sports related, reasons for using a whistle, and rightfully
so, i supposed.
i wasn't quite as enamoured by it....but am willing to try again.
yeah....gotta go run some errands.
Mike Gerics
UOA
ulticritic
> i thought it was nice work.
> we made some adjustments.
> we had some areas of concentration.
> made some changes and additions.
> i think everything we worked on made the game more smooth...better.
> i like the athletes calling fouls and observers ruling in disputes. i
> hope ultimate can always stay like that.
you know how hope works
-------------------------------------------------
> we used a whistle one game...and maybe we'll try two games side by
> side next 8s to see if it's confusing.
> observer restarting the disc is great.
did you use whistle for this????
----------------------------------------------------------------
> i could call 93% of all picks if that were an observer call.
> i could also call about 127 holds and hooks and grabs and blocks
> between cutters and defenders.....but the ATHLETES don't even call
> them....they just keep running hard, playing good hard physical
> ultimate.
but havent we established that they arent called because there isnt
any benefit (but actually a detriment) in calling it the majority of
the time.......as it just takes away the flow of the O
------------------------------------------------------------
So....that's another reason i like the athletes calling the
> fouls. I could have handed out 12 TMF for holding, but the athletes
> didn't even complain about it.
well that to me just signifies that full on reffing is more than
doable and there wouldnt be many complaints if there WERE refs and
those refs simply "let em play".......right? i mean, whats the big
difference...... aside from the added continuity of a modernized
system?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> i like that there were very few 'ground taps' and even 'disc taps'
> with the observer restart.
i dont see why there needs to be any????? is it just habitual on the
part of most players?
----------------------------------------------------------
> in observed games, the rule should be that, in the event of a double
> team, the observer should suspend the stall count(oh, assuming there's
> observer stall count, of course). No going back two or
> whatever...just suspend the stall count.
but how do the players know if the dt is an upheld call......since you
guys dont count every second?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the thrower wants to call
> double team foul or violation...they have that rite too.
> 15 sec if the disc is turned over on the sideline between the goal
> lines to put the disc back into play, rather than the current 20 sec.
giddy up........speed that shit up.
-----------------------------------------------------------
> 20 sec in the endzone, i guess and 10 on the field.
> we tried to speed up the disputed foul calls by ruling as soon as we
> heard 'contest' and one of the athletes looked at us.
wow, it seemed pretty fast last time (in comparison to the upas' CRP
the difference is night and day).........awsome that you are
streamlining it more
------------------------------------------------------------------
we ASSUMED that
> since they said contest and turned to us, that they were "coming to
> us".
> yeah....jason, i think, loved the whistle experiment for all of the
> obvious, sports related, reasons for using a whistle, and rightfully
> so, i supposed.
YEAAAAA jason.
coz
A few thoughts:
The observer system was great. Every observer we had in every game
seemed more than prepared for their jobs. There was one minor rules
dispute during one of our games (which in no way affected the
outcome), it was just a question of beginning the stall count
immediately when both players are standing over the disc. This was
resolved quickly and the observers who weren't sure made sure to find
me and my team and clear up the rules after they got the official word
from Mike G / the rulebook. Active travel calls are AWESOME in my
opinion (one of the better things about the observers this weekend),
and made for a lot less travels overall and definitely fewer of the
ticky-tack variety.
Quick rulings were sweet as well, as they kept the game moving. I like
the idea of whistles for restarts and such as it was sometimes
difficult to hear the more "soft-spoken" observers downfield with
sidelines yelling and noise from other fields when the disc was tapped
in.
The double team rule was a little confusing at first, as it wasn't
mentioned as part of the way the observer's will work the stall count
at the captain's meeting or in any of the experimental rules, (but
Mike we already had that discussion and I'm more than sure your on top
of it).
Observer's worked well together. The only thing I would like to see
more of is: if one observer doesn't have the best angle on a foul/
call, that the two get together and discuss what they saw. I can only
speak for the games we played in, but I don't recall this happening
once, and I'm sure there were some instances where one guy could see
it better than the other, but left the call to the man with the weaker
perspective. Everything else observer-related was money.
Fields were great, and relined for Sunday morning after the mud tore
up the goal-lines and brick marks (nicely done). More than enough
water and fruit for everyone, and just all around smoothly and
perfectly ran. One of the better college tournaments I have been to in
4+ years of college ultimate. Quality over quantity is the new wave,
and if your team hasn't embraced it yet, I suggest you give one of
these spring events that are littering RSD like gucci handbags a look
when figuring out your team's spring schedule.
Coz
Wake Forest #1
ulticritic
> . Active travel calls are AWESOME in my
> opinion (one of the better things about the observers this weekend),
active??????? isnt that just another word for "ref"? so the ref
travel calls are AWESOME!!!!!! chalk one up for the ref system!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Quick rulings were sweet as well, as they kept the game moving.
IRS BABY......nutin to it but to do it.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I like
> the idea of whistles for restarts
who woulda thunk that
---------------------------------------------------------------
and such as it was sometimes
> difficult to hear the more "soft-spoken" observers downfield with
> sidelines yelling and noise from other fields when the disc was tapped
> in.
speaking of which......how does the average observers voice hold out
over the weekend?
----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The double team rule was a little confusing at first, as it wasn't
> mentioned as part of the way the observer's will work the stall count
> at the captain's meeting or in any of the experimental rules, (but
> Mike we already had that discussion and I'm more than sure your on top
> of it).
i'd make it an active call. seems only logical since its the observer
that is judging when the stall starts based on the same "spacing"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Observer's worked well together. The only thing I would like to see
> more of is: if one observer doesn't have the best angle on a foul/
> call, that the two get together and discuss what they saw.
maybe they communicated telepathically(with eye contact or subtle
signals). of course the refs dont deliberate in b-ball on calls,
so........................
-------------------------------------------------
>
> Fields were great,
those fields are damn sweet
----------------------------------------------------------
and relined for Sunday morning after the mud tore
> up the goal-lines and brick marks (nicely done).
VERY impressive
------------------------------------------------------
More than enough
> water and fruit for everyone, and just all around smoothly and
> perfectly ran. One of the better college tournaments I have been to in
> 4+ years of college ultimate. Quality over quantity is the new wave,
> and if your team hasn't embraced it yet, I suggest you give one of
> these spring events that are littering RSD like gucci handbags a look
> when figuring out your team's spring schedule.
what an endorsement!!!!!!!!!! with reviews like that the 8's will be
booked solid every weekend till june
anakin gerics
> > lines to put the disc back into play, rather than the current 20 sec.
>
> giddy up........speed that shit up.
----i don't think that changing the sideline turnover from 20 to 15
seconds would really speed the game up.
....the count simply never really gets close to 20 seconds.
the athletes COULD stand around for 15 seconds and REALLY hesitate to
put the disc back into play if they wanted to, however, they don't do
this. maybe they are wasting an opportunity to take MORE time to call
a play or just rest or drink some water(?)
they don't NEED and rarely use close to the full 20 seconds.....so
DON'T give it to them to use!
15 sec on the sideline.
20 seconds from the front cone back
10 seconds on the field
anakin gerics
>
> - Show quoted text -
anakin gerics
> dispute during one of our games (which in no way affected the
> outcome), it was just a question of beginning the stall count
> immediately when both players are standing over the disc.
--UOA observers give 1 or 2 seconds of standing over the disc before
we say "pick up the disc....stalling 1"
anakin gerics
> opinion (one of the better things about the observers this weekend),
> and made for a lot less travels overall and definitely fewer of the
> ticky-tack variety.
--same as two
weeks ago, i called very few travels.
i wanted to.
god knows i wanted to call more.
did i miss some. yes. but i changed the way i thought about while
watching for travels. i tried to switch my brain back to playing
college ultimate and was trying to ask myself over and over
again...would i have called it? would i have called it? would i have
called it?
still....not many calls.
I WAS FIRED UP when i finally found a kid that travelled every other
time he got the disc....pivot foot lift and drop step and pivot
across. you know the technique.
i got to call 5 or 6 travels in just 2 or 3 points!!
NO ticky tack travels.
no travels that WEREN'T travels, for sure!
anakin gerics
> mentioned as part of the way the observer's will work the stall count
> at the captain's meeting or in any of the experimental rules, (but
> Mike we already had that discussion and I'm more than sure your on top
> of it).
---yeah, i can understand that it may be confusing......
i'd say that it's just one of our 'default' UOA methods of working the
stall count.
we simply suspend the count in the event of a double team.
we suspend the count if the marker leaves the 3 meter radius around
the thrower.
we don't begin the stall count until there's a definate marker withing
the 3 meters.
we figure that if a double team normally sends the count back 2
seconds....we are simply going to stop the count for that long instead
of doing the quick math in our heads and figure 8 minus 2 is 6 so say
stalling 6........we're just going to stop counting.
that's what we do.....that's how we do it.
as i told Coz, i will try to make that more understood in the future.
anakin gerics
> more of is: if one observer doesn't have the best angle on a foul/
> call, that the two get together and discuss what they saw. I can only
> speak for the games we played in, but I don't recall this happening
> once, and I'm sure there were some instances where one guy could see
> it better than the other, but left the call to the man with the weaker
> perspective. Everything else observer-related was money.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---we are trained to make eyecontact during disputes and i teach to be
be very obvious NOT secretive while making the eye contact with your
partner.
i will signal immediately to my partner by making two fists and
hitting wrist to wrist to say...'i saw it as a foul'.
i teach to shake your head NO if you believe it wasn't a foul.
i had a couple or few meetings with my partners during disputes to
discuss calls as you request above. i don't mind a quick talk
between observers, because it's done in every other sport.
i believe that if an observer isn't confident in his call, he's going
to ask his partner, or he's going to provide a do-over in some very
confident observer-like way....
a good uoa observer won't give a turnover on a call they aren't sure
of, i bet.
anakin gerics
up the goal-lines and brick marks (nicely done). More than enough
water and fruit for everyone, and just all around smoothly and
perfectly ran. One of the better college tournaments I have been to
in
4+ years of college ultimate. Quality over quantity is the new wave,
and if your team hasn't embraced it yet, I suggest you give one of
these spring events that are littering RSD like gucci handbags a look
when figuring out your team's spring schedule.
Coz
Wake Forest #1
---hey, thanks for the great note, that i replied to in pieces....and
for the positive feedback about the tournament.
each time we host...SOMETHING will be better, we promise.....even if
ya'll can't tell or don't notice.
POW TAU!
anakin gerics
> speaking of which......how does the average observers voice hold out
> over the weekend?
---wonderfully.
anakin gerics
> > up the goal-lines and brick marks (nicely done).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----props to Jason Weddle.
i thought he was headed off to paint the bricks...and there he was
walkin' all the goal lines early as heck.
he does nice work.
Colin
How'd the observers like the 3m player lines and 5m gear lines?
What'd the players have to say? Jason said there was space. Did you
get a chance to put them down? 4 fields, 8 lines. Totally worth it.
Nobody likes sideline folks interfering with play/calls near the edges
of the field, nor does anyone like the TMFs and/or constant reminders
to back up.
If I'm able to make it to one of the spring events, I'll happily come
down early on Friday to put these lines down.
Reggie Fanelli
> down early on Friday to put these lines down
--bring the paint and the liner.
fishklan41
Maybe we should announce "No stall" when there is a DT ,because the
thrower won't be looking for a hand signel...just a thought
Mitch
> we simply suspend the count in the event of a double team.
> we suspend the count if the marker leaves the 3 meter radius around
> the thrower.
we don't suspend the count when they leave the 3 meter radius, we
RESET it when they re-enter (or a new marker alone enters) the 3 meter
radius.
right mike?
;)
observers accounting for double team just works. i would announce
"double team" when it was happening. I agreed that throwers should
know they weren't being stalled and don't want them having to turn
around to check if my arms are extended.
and observers in an observer active stall environment should have
their arms extended out when there isn't a defender close enough to
stall.
Alex Peters
imagine that you don't, since it's pretty rare that anyone is ever
*not* violating disc space, as defined in the rules. Still, it would
be kind of funny to see a marker set up around the pivot of a thrower,
and then wonder why the hell the thrower was allowed to hold the disc
for 20 seconds straight with no count.
Mitch
yeah, double team we accounted for, but we told players they need to
call their own disc space warnings/violations. I wouldn't mind doing
disc space too. It would give my arms a rest from all the chopping
given 99% of marking violates discspace. ;)
coz
Now this is a spectacular idea. No one is really looking at the
observer except players on the sideline. And when the double team was
there and the observer was holding their arms out, not moving,
signaling no stall, the thrower, nor the cup (as it was mostly zone
points where this was occurring) had any idea there was no stall until
they didn't hear "5".
The trail observer announcing something like "Double Team, No Stallt",
and then starting with "Stalling 1. . . " after the cup loosens up a
bit would be a major improvement.
Colin
I'm not likely to be able to bring paint and a liner. But that should
not be the hurdle that prevents these lines from going down.
Mistake in my previous adding. 16 lines for 4 fields - 8 player lines
and 8 gear lines. But if you put the player line at 3m, then you
don't really need a gear line (players can move their stuff back if
they want more space). So 8 lines is workable.
Reggie Fanelli
---no.
i picture that as more of a foul call for the thrower to make, or not.
Reggie Fanelli
> and then starting with "Stalling 1. . . " after the cup loosens up a
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---less talking, i'd say.
when there's no stall count....there's no stall.
you're gonna hear 5, 7 8 9 10......and if you don't.....then you have
plenty of time before you throw.
i like the hands apart to show either 1-too far away to stall or 2-too
many people close to the disc to stall(double team)
less talking. the players will adjust.