What do you want from the UPA's Board of Directors?
Josh
I've decided to go for it and run for an at large position on the
UPA's Board of Directors.
Voting is now open and will be through the end of October. Anyone who
is a UPA member can vote. You don't have to be 18 to vote.
Over the next month I will be attempting to engage as many people in
the US Ultimate community as I can on the topic of what they would
like to see the UPA's Board of Directors do for them. I am
particularly interested in:
What are you looking for in a Board member?
How can the UPA better serve the US Ultimate community?
Would you like to hear my position on any issues in particular?
....anything and everything you'd like to say about the UPA.
I've put up a page detailing all of the information that's currently
available on my candidacy right here: http://vyul.org/content/view/72/96/
Feel free to post your comments here or email them to me directly at
jseamon at gmail dot com.
ctw...@gmail.com
Get rid of numbers on the shorts. Its kinda like abortion you either
support the choice or you don't.
Peter Mc
Have them list the premier public disc sports collection on their
website.
Sincerely,
Peter McCarthy
Midwest Disc Sports Collection
23 Ellis Library
Univ. of Missouri-Columbia
ulticritic
Create an elite divisional series in which the focus was on maximizing
the entertainment value of the sport so that it can be more of a
comodity that would take place during the summer months. Solictit
serious sponsorship opportunities so that there are tangible
incentives for those that would be involved in both playing and
promoting it so that it would be self subsidized and not financially
burden the membership at larges' budget (as is the case now with
nationals). This would be the best way to address the top down
approach to promoting ultimate which must be addressed in order to
avoid stagnation. Said events should focus on quality rather than
quantity and all the bells and whistles that are used to maximize the
entertainment value of similar feild/team sports (refs, fan
interaction, announcers, music, concessions, etc) should be
incorporated.
General wants and needs assestments should be preformed on a regular
basis, not ala ultimate revolution style though. The process should
be streamlined and simplified so that maximum input is achieved and
costs are minimized (how much did that ult rev program cost
anyways???). This could/should be done by having members fill out
questionairs when signing up for membership either on line or at
sectional events (whatever is easiest and most efficient). Use the
kiss method on this endeavor.
standards in competition should be improved from requiring scoreboards
at tourny events (at least in the playoff games) to creating an
equitable pay scale and certification process for officials
(observers, refs, whatever you want to call em) to roster limits. I
am with the guy that called for the abortion of the Numbers on shorts
thing though........which is more of an issue of not allowing the upa
administrators to just arbitrairily mandate things without proper
membership input and consent.
segregate mens and womens competition. Aside from the fact that the
mixed division has put a hurting on both the mens and womens divisions
(specifically club) participation levels it is simply not safe. Has
anyone looked into the liability issues of a death occuring in
official upa comp in which a woman were to colide with a man twice her
size.
Joe Buck
office.
When asked on what his platform would be, his interview in the local
paper included the quote*
"I don't know, I'll do whatever people tell me. That guy who I'm
running against is doing a pretty good job, so I'll probably keep
doing things like him."
That's my suggestion. Do what the other guy did or what people tell
you.
I do like your touch of nationalism. What can the upa do for the "US"
community?
I personally think the UPA should stop killing all the Mandelas.
*paraphrased, I didn't memorize it.
Frank Huguenard
There is a critical rule change that needs to be implemented.
In the preface, it says basically (paraphrasing) that since no one is going
to intentionally violate any rules, there will NOT be any harsh penalties
and that play should continue as if the infraction had not occured. I'm
assuming that a turnover is considered a harsh violation since the majority
of players have indicated that for either uncontested traveling violations
or uncontested offensive fouls, a turnover is considered to be too harsh.
Therefore, my suggestion is that when a team gets called for a stall count
violation, they should get a do-over. When a players gets called with a
STALL, all play should stop, the thrower should get the disc back with a
fresh zero count and the disc checked back in.
So some real leadership here Josh and right the ship. Step up to the plate
and fix this once and for all. Ultimate can NOT survive with this glaring
hole of inconsistency in the framework of the game.
Either there are going to be harsh penalties or there are not.
"Josh" <jse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191421481.9...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
rhb
>
> Create an elite divisional series in which the focus was on maximizing
> the entertainment value of the sport so that it can be more of a
> comodity that would take place during the summer months. Solictit
> serious sponsorship opportunities so that there are tangible
> incentives for those that would be involved in both playing and
> promoting it so that it would be self subsidized and not financially
> burden the membership at larges' budget (as is the case now with
> nationals).
>
I would like to iterate ulticritic's stance on elite ultimate, I too
would like to see this happen. while adding to continue coaches
certification and growth at the youth level.
Joe Seidler
members do not get to Nationals and often Sectionals is the only
official UPA tournament they play in. Make it a big deal.
ulticritic
> Put more of the UPA budget into Sectionals and Regionals. Most UPA
> members do not get to Nationals and often Sectionals is the only
> official UPA tournament they play in. Make it a big deal.
i agree......spread the wealth. There should be a maned upa tent set
up at each sectional event in which information can be givin out and
collected. It might not even be a bad idea to try and find a
corporation to sponsor the whole series (sectionals, regionals and
nationals).....much better chance of landing a client that willing to
put up bank when they know they will be getting way more exposure and
on a nation wide level. Maybe even require teams to wear shirts with
the title sponsors logo on it.......the upa could strike a deal with a
supplier in which teams could get their unies at sick discount
prices......it might take a little more organization and forethought
but it could yeild significant perks for players to the extent in
which they would be more motivated to get their shit together sooner
to help make it happen.
you could also run other youth oriented programs (punt pass and kick
style comp that is run through the school systems and culminates at
the events) at said events along with other things (music, food) to
draw people out and make them aware of ultimate.......of course if you
were to go to those lengths to attract an audience you would want to
put on a quality show (scoreboards, officials, announcers).....at
least when you got to the finals.
Adam Tarr
out of bounds is not a violation of the rules.
On Oct 3, 11:19 am, "Frank Huguenard"
<fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Yes, I've got a suggestion.
>
> There is a critical rule change that needs to be implemented.
>
> In the preface, it says basically (paraphrasing) that since no one is going
> to intentionally violate any rules, there will NOT be any harsh penalties
> and that play should continue as if the infraction had not occured. I'm
> assuming that a turnover is considered a harsh violation since the majority
> of players have indicated that for either uncontested traveling violations
> or uncontested offensive fouls, a turnover is considered to be too harsh.
>
> Therefore, my suggestion is that when a team gets called for a stall count
> violation, they should get a do-over. When a players gets called with a
> STALL, all play should stop, the thrower should get the disc back with a
> fresh zero count and the disc checked back in.
>
> So some real leadership here Josh and right the ship. Step up to the plate
> and fix this once and for all. Ultimate can NOT survive with this glaring
> hole of inconsistency in the framework of the game.
>
> Either there are going to be harsh penalties or there are not.
>
> "Josh" <jsea...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1191421481.9...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hello everyone,
>
> > I've decided to go for it and run for an at large position on the
> > UPA's Board of Directors.
>
> > Voting is now open and will be through the end of October. Anyone who
> > is a UPA member can vote. You don't have to be 18 to vote.
>
> > Over the next month I will be attempting to engage as many people in
> > the US Ultimate community as I can on the topic of what they would
> > like to see the UPA's Board of Directors do for them. I am
> > particularly interested in:
>
> > What are you looking for in a Board member?
>
> > How can the UPA better serve the US Ultimate community?
>
> > Would you like to hear my position on any issues in particular?
>
> > ....anything and everything you'd like to say about the UPA.
>
> > I've put up a page detailing all of the information that's currently
> > available on my candidacy right here:http://vyul.org/content/view/72/96/
>
> > Feel free to post your comments here or email them to me directly at
> > jseamon at gmail dot com.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Frank Huguenard
Thank you for that. Exactly the kind of nonsense I was hoping for.
Throwing the disc out of bounds is no different from turfing a disc. It's
not a rules violation, it's how the game is played.
By who's definition is holding on to the disc for ten seconds not a
violation? What would you call it if it's not a violation of the rules?
In the NBA, it's called a "shot clock violation" when you don't put up a
shot that hits iron in less than 24 seconds. In other words, it's a
violation of the rules, in the shot clock category.
In ultimate, it's a "stall count violation" to hold on to the disc for ten
seconds. The Penalty for a stall count violation is a turnover. If you had
refs and official score cards and a "throw clock", a stall would be scored
as a clock violation.
But you go ahead, redefine the meaning of the word violation to reconcile
the preface so that the rules seem rational to you.
Rather than accept the fact that the foundation for Ultimate (no harsh
penalties) is not only insane but not even consistentenly adhered to in the
rules, redefine the meaning of violation to suit your needs.
I'll have a pint of cognitive dissonance to go, with a wedge of lime.
"Adam Tarr" <ahtarr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191438853.5...@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Adam Tarr
make this my last post on this subject, in the hopes of preventing a
full-on thread hijack.
On Oct 3, 1:38 pm, "Frank Huguenard"
<fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Thank you for that. Exactly the kind of nonsense I was hoping for.
> Throwing the disc out of bounds is no different from turfing a disc. It's
> not a rules violation, it's how the game is played.
>
> By who's definition is holding on to the disc for ten seconds not a
> violation? What would you call it if it's not a violation of the rules?
A stall? A turnover? On what basis WOULD you call it a violation of
the rules? Certainly not as a result of anything written in the
rules. In fact, the rules state "A stall is not a violation".
> In the NBA, it's called a "shot clock violation" when you don't put up a
> shot that hits iron in less than 24 seconds. In other words, it's a
> violation of the rules, in the shot clock category.
This is pure semantics of course, but it's not a violation of the
rules there either. You've violated the shot clock time limit. It's
reasonable to disagree with me on this, but consider:
In Basketball, everything you do that is against the rules is called a
"foul". Do these things enough, and you get thrown out of the game.
But you can commit a shot clock violation a dozen times and not get
thrown out of the game (although your coach would yank you). A shot
clock violation is a poor play, but it is not given an additional
penalty precisely because it is not a "foul". Foul: "contrary to the
rules or established usages".
> But you go ahead, redefine the meaning of the word violation to reconcile
> the preface so that the rules seem rational to you.
Violate: "to break, infringe, or transgress (a law, rule, agreement,
promise, instructions, etc.)." Show me the rule being broken. It
would look somthing like, say, "It is the responsibility of the
thrower to release the disc within ten seconds of establishing
posession." It ain't in there. Read the section on violations and
fouls and you will find language like this.
Frank Huguenard
I was reading recently a book where it was stated that the majority never
leads.
No where has this ever been more self evident then the whacky world of
Ultimate Frisbee.
Where's the leadership? There is none.
TheWedge
Wow, I agree with basically everything you've said, especially the
sponsorship/scoreboard (what you've called bells and whistles.
(except for the Mixed Division part, which has been debated to death
so I'll avoid it b/c of the risk of a thread-jack). Nice job.
~wedge
jim
> members do not get to Nationals and often Sectionals is the only
> official UPA tournament they play in. Make it a big deal.
This is a very good idea.
Josh
I think the UPA requiring numbers on shorts at championship level
events is perfectly reasonable. As they say in their FAQ:
Q. Why do we have to get numbers on our shorts as well as our jerseys
(College Championships and Club Championships only)?
A. It is important to be able to identify players from the front as
well as the back. For example, many of the best Ultimate pictures are
from the front, where you can't see jersey numbers.
Along those lines:
Q. Why does the UPA have uniform requirements?
A. The UPA Championships have importance beyond just the competing
teams. These events present an opportunity to promote the sport, which
is one of the missions of the UPA. Towards that end, non-players
(including observers, photographers, journalists, fans, and stat-
keepers) need to be able to identify and distinguish between teams and
players. The tournament is also one of the UPA's showcase events, and
it is important that the sport be presented in its best light
I agree with everything stated above.
It's championship level events only - Events where teams have already
invested a huge amount of time, energy, and money. Is $2-4 per player
more really that big of a deal?
Re: Listing disc sports collections
This seems like a perfectly reasonable request to me. Have you asked
the UPA to list you disc sports collection? If you have and they've
said no, what was their reasoning?
Re: ulticritic
I always love reading your posts Toad I like the idea of creating an
Elite Division. That would be a good way to promote the sport. What do
you think of the MLU games? Getting the financial burden off of the
players for this kind of event should also be a major priority - good
point.
I also completely agree with the idea that the opinions of the
membership should be more actively and frequently taken in. Keeping is
simple by incorporating surveys into membership forms is a fantastic
idea.
Equitable pay scales and improved standards are also certainly a big
deal.
As for shorts - see above.
I do not agree with segregating women and men. I do agree that the
increased growth in the mixed division has hurt both the womens and
the open divisions, but there are other ways to solve that issue that
segregation. What about changing the mixed division to the summer?
Also, are you at all serious when you say "...participation levels it is
simply not safe. Has anyone looked into the liability issues of a
death occuring in official upa comp in which a woman were to colide
with a man twice her size." (I sometimes have a very hard time telling
when you're serious and when you're being snarky.)
Frank:
I actually don't follow you on your first post. Could you explain
again what you mean?
Joe:
Putting more money into Sectionals and Regionals is a wonderful idea,
especially for the reason you listed. How do you think that money
should be applied? I like Toad's idea of having info tents. I wonder
if the UPA has tried to pickup large sponsors?
Frank Huguenard
> I actually don't follow you on your first post. Could you explain
> again what you mean?
Josh,
Ultimate's rules begin with this:
__________________________
Preface
The Official Rules of Ultimate 11th Edition describes how the game is
played. It is assumed that no player will
intentionally violate the rules; thus there are no harsh penalties for
inadvertent infractions, but rather a method
for resuming play in a manner that simulates what most likely would have
occurred absent the infraction. In
Ultimate, an intentional infraction is considered cheating and a gross
offense against the spirit of sportsmanship.
Often a player is in a position to gain an advantage by committing an
infraction, but that player is morally
bound to abide by the rules. The integrity of Ultimate depends on each
player's responsibility to uphold the
Spirit of the GameT, and this responsibility should remain paramount.
___________________________
Basically what this paragraph says is that the reason for penalization in
sports is to prevent cheating. Read it again. That's what it implies.
This basic wording has been in the rules since the inception of the UPA 28
years ago.
This is insane.
Not only is it insane, but by having a turnover for a stall count violation
(an inadvertant infraction), it's not even held true. My suggestion was
that in order for the rules to hold to this preface and be consistent, you
need to remove the harsh penalty (turnover) for the infraction. [it has
already been determined by the majority that a mandatory turnover is
considered a harsh penalty]
I'm not being sarcastic or fecitious. Either there are harsh penalties or
there are not. You can't have it both ways. Since nobody wants to have a
turnover for traveling or fouls, then the only choice is to have a do-over
for stall count infractions.
Of course, the other way to FIX this glaring descrepency in the rules is to
a) remove the preface or b) declare that a mandatory turnover is not a harsh
penalty and instill this not-so-harsh penalty for uncontested offensive
fouls, uncontested traveling violations, etc.
Option (b) falls short of the ideal because it lacks the mechanism for a
player fouling out after x number of fouls. Definitely a harsh penalty.
Anything short of that and the rules for Ultimate remain a joke.
The reason for penalties in sports is not to prevent cheating, it is to
assure adherance to the rules. There is a big difference here. It's just
human nature. People will try a lot harder to not commit an infraction,
inadvertant or not, if there are negative consequences associated with it.
In effect, what the preface has encouraged, is decreased awareness. Harsh
penalties increase awareness. Increased awareness leads to higher quality
of play.
All these people want respect for Ultimate, major sponsorships, TV coverage,
legitimacy and you can do all the dressing up you want of the players but
until the preface from Ultimate gets thrown out and the rules then get
rationalized, the game is not to be taken seriously. On the film clip
http://www.break.com/index/ultimate-frisbee-collision.html, forgetting for a
second the actual clip, read through the ensuing threads. That's what the
general public thinks of Ultimate Frisbee. Are you going to change that? Or
are you going to 'do the same thing your competitor has done'?
Joe Seidler
1. Larger tents with more food and merchandise for sale (similar to
Regionals and Nationals).
2. Marked fields like at NW Regionals (that was great).
3. Saturday night party.
4. Raffles to add some fun.
5. Water, etc. available like at Regionals.
And at Regionals, have bigger tents still with more food and
merchandise. More raffles. Big Saturday night party. It would also be
nice if UPA board members walked around Regional tournaments talking
and listening to the players. (Note: the next statement is a pet peeve
of mine.) When board members are current players and they are playing
in Regionals and Nationals and cannot communicate with members at
those events, it is a tremendously missed opportunity. IMO board
members should be aware and ready to put their board duties ahead of
their playing desires. This of course would mean thinking about that
before they run for the board... end of my soap box.
Getting sponsors may be difficult. Ultimate doesn't attract many
sponsors since players don't need to buy too much from vendors. That's
why I suggest using more of the UPA budget. Spend it on Sectionals
which is the only place all UPA members participate.
Frank Huguenard
>
> Getting sponsors may be difficult. Ultimate doesn't attract many
> sponsors since players don't need to buy too much from vendors.
No, Ultimate doesn't attract sponsors because Ultimate doesn't attract an
audience. The game is unwatchable.
Burrp
couple there. Etc.
Tim
long time.
Sectionals is where the most potential for promotion lies because it is more
likely to draw non-ultimate players across the country at each local event.
Also, people who join the UPA and play at Sectionals deserve to feel that
they are doing something that carries some significance.
Tim
"Joe Seidler" <j...@seidler.com> wrote in message
news:1191456553.5...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Josh
I think I understand what you're saying - It certainly is an
intriguing analysis. A few questions:
1) Does the fact that you can contest a stall factor in at all?
2) You say, "Option (b) falls short of the ideal because it lacks the
mechanism for a
player fouling out after x number of fouls." I don't understand why
that means option b) wouldn't work?
3) Since Ultimate is a self governed sport, doesn't that mean (at
least for some people) that it increases their awareness of the rules?
4) Could you elaborate more on "The reason for penalties in sports is
not to prevent cheating, it is to assure adherence to the rules.
There is a big difference here." Wouldn't a rule like, "you will no
longer be allowed to compete if you take anabolic steroids" be an
example of a penalty that is designed to prevent cheating?
I do understand what you're saying about how a lack of harsh penalties
making people lax about following the rules. I'm just not sure where
to go from there. Part of me would really like to see at least SOME
harsh penalties - For example, I love the fact that there is a
coaching ethics document that coaches have to follow in a limited
number of tournament - but I am really annoyed that there are no real
or immediate consequences for breaking those set rules. Yes, a coach
can be not allowed to coach at the next champhionship event, but that
doesn't change the game where the coach broke the rules.
As for creating more strict in-game rules, I'd have to think long on
how and what could be changed. The thing is, I'm not sure if lots of
harsh rules would suddenly make people be more adherent to the rules.
I can see some people making the argument that harsher rules would
just encourage people to cheat more. Heck, we have the death penalty
in this country yet we have one of the highest homicide rates on the
entire planet.
I do also agree with your point about how Ultimate has a tough battle
to be legitimized due to rules that seem rather irrational when
compared to other sports. Part of me really does want to suck it up
and try some radical new ideas. For example, after coaching lots and
lots and lots of youth Ultimate over the past 5 years, I would LOVE to
see how the game would work with active refs and foul counts.
As for how to change the general view of the public, that's going to
take a long, long while... but I think the movement the sport has been
making over the past years has certainly been in the right direction.
More and more people are playing. Youth Ultimate has continued to grow
exponentially. More and more people are taking the sport seriously. Do
we still have a long way to go? Certainly. Are there other oddities in
the rules of Ultimate that people have big issues with? Absolutely. Do
I have some sort of magic way to turn Ultimate into a 100% accepted-by-
all-in-a-way-lots-of-other-sports are? Nope. But do I have the strong,
driving desire to get more people to play and fall in love with the
sport? Absolutely. One place where I think I can have the most
influence to make that happen is on the UPA's Board of Directors.
Hopefully that's where I'm headed.
Re: Joe
Those are some good ideas. The only thing is that with the variance of
size, location, and intensity, there's no way to make those absolute
at Sectionals... BUT, they could certainly be strongly encouraged.
Larger tents would certainly be great, banners too. Marked fields
would be wonderful, but there are many locations where that isn't
possible. I'm kind of ambivalent about Saturday night parties since I
primarily coach youth players - wait, I kinda of like Saturday night
parties because it makes it that much easier for my youth kids to run
down older players who can't see straight on Sunday morning ;)
As for board members getting out and about especially at regional/
national events - Sounds good to me! So here's my first 'campaign
promise': I promise to talk to you more about Ultimate than you can
handle. As long as it's a reasonable situation (I'd like to play some
at Regionals... and maybe Nationals one day ;) ) I'll take on any issue
you can throw at me at any time.
Frank Huguenard
1) You're missing the bottom line. The lack of penalization was the biggest
mistake in the creation of the sport.
Whether or not a stall is contested is irrelevant. It is an infraction to
hold on to the disc for ten seconds. The penalty for this infraction is a
turnover.
This has been so ingrained into the collective psyche in the culture that
people just accept it and when someone points it out, they dismiss it out of
hand.
But this is a contradiction.
The rules say that there are no harsh penalities for inadvertant
infractions. That's either not true, or they didn't consider a turnover a
harsh penalty. If that's the case, then make uncontested travels and
uncontested offensive fouls turnovers as well.
2) Option b would work but it's still falls short of the ideal. A turnover
for offensive fouls isn't exactly fair because there's no penalty for
defensive fouls? Follow me? So the obvious conclusion to that stream of
thought is to penalize all fouls in some manner.
3) Self officiating is utopian rhetoric but in practice and in conjunction
with the fact that there are no penalities, players do not try nearly has
hard not to violate the rules as they would with a firmer hand guiding them.
If you have 4 fouls on you and a 5th foul means you're out of the game, are
you going to try extra hard not to foul? Is that penalty in place to ensure
you don't cheat?
4) You're turning my words around. If you read the preface, the implication
that the reason for ALL penalties in sports is to prevent cheating. There
is no denying this. That's been the basis for the entire rule base of the
sport since it's inception. Yes, there are certain rules designed
specifically against cheating in sports. Football has a 'leg whipping' rule
for example. It is almost always intentional and it is cheating. Over and
back in basketball is NEVER cheating. It's a violation and the artificial
boundary was put in place to foster a tighter game. It makes no sense
whatsoever to not have traveling as a turnover in Ultimate. I can guarantee
you, that had this been the case 30 years ago, that one change would have
resulted in a dramatically different throwing stance today from what it is.
Fundamentals in the game are all skewed due to the super soft boundaries of
no penalties.
5) The UPA coaching clinics teach these exact misguided and unsound
fundamentals. Besides that, you'll have success implementing a change like
that because it doesn't change the game. Try making traveling a turnover.
It won't happen. The real question you want to ask yourself is why not?
6) Play Dischoops with refs. It is phenominal. The result of the harsh
penalities is that players improvement is radically fast. It's a very steep
learning curve but once the adjustment is made, players' fundamentals are
far superior to what they are on the Ultimate field.
7) Ain't going to happen. The number one reason. It's untelevisable or a
spectator sport. Out of a 60 minute match, over 30 (probably closer to 40)
minutes is downtime. In a 14-15 point game, that's 28 minutes between
points alone. Add to that time outs, half time, arguing/observer
involvement, delay of game (20 seconds to put the disc in play?), etc. If
and when players learn how to play the game and there are firm restraints in
place to prevent excess fouling, etc., the average score should be around 45
seconds (according to Frank).
8) What is it that makes Ultimate so addicting? The 'Burning Man' type of
culture? The tournaments/parties? The thrill of running around in cleats?
Or the joy of Frisbee?
I suggest to you that most of what you find attractive in reality is not
inherent to the actual game of Ultimate itself, but rather many of these
other intrinsic qualities. If you could retain all of these qualities and
play a game that was even more addicting, wouldn't you at least want to give
it a try? Dischoops is everything Ultimate should have been. As a
candidate for the UPA, don't you think you have an obligation to explore the
possibilities that the very game of Ultimate is, as I've maintained, built
on top of a very misguided house of cards? What's the harm in spending $30
at Home Depot and building a kit and playing a game or two. It's a lot of
fun.
"Josh" <jse...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191465913.5...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Josh
Okay.... but I am trying to understand.
> The lack of penalization was the biggest
> mistake in the creation of the sport.
Got it.
> Whether or not a stall is contested is irrelevant.
Understood.
> It is an infraction to
> hold on to the disc for ten seconds. The penalty for this infraction is a
> turnover.
>
> This has been so ingrained into the collective psyche in the culture that
> people just accept it and when someone points it out, they dismiss it out of
> hand.
When people point out what? Point out the contradiction that you're
pointing out? If that's what you're specifying, what about the fact
that I didn't dismiss and have asked you more questions so that I can
understand what you mean? I agree that the idea that a stall = a
turnover has been ingrained. I am also not dismissing your analysis --
I find it interesting.
> But this is a contradiction.
I'm beginning to understand the point you're trying to make.
> The rules say that there are no harsh penalities for inadvertant
> infractions. That's either not true, or they didn't consider a turnover a
> harsh penalty.
I see your point.
> If that's the case, then make uncontested travels and
> uncontested offensive fouls turnovers as well.
I can definitely see that as being a possibility in the future.
> 2) Option b would work but it's still falls short of the ideal. A turnover
> for offensive fouls isn't exactly fair because there's no penalty for
> defensive fouls? Follow me? So the obvious conclusion to that stream of
> thought is to penalize all fouls in some manner.
I'm sorry, I actually don't follow you :(
> 3) Self officiating is utopian rhetoric but in practice and in conjunction
> with the fact that there are no penalities, players do not try nearly has
> hard not to violate the rules as they would with a firmer hand guiding them.
Well, you are certainly entitled to believe that. I for one don't. But
I completely recognize how someone could feel that way. If I had to
compare how hard the kids I coach in Ultimate work at not violating
the rules, to the ones playing other sports, I could certainly make a
strong argument that my Ultimate kids works MUCH harder to play by the
rules. And I'll even compare the Ultimate kids to themselves when they
are playing other sports. I just don't believe that 'utopian rhetoric'
necessarily equals some lesser need to follow the rules.
> If you have 4 fouls on you and a 5th foul means you're out of the game, are
> you going to try extra hard not to foul? Is that penalty in place to ensure
> you don't cheat?
Yes, but another way to look at it is that you have 4 chances to cheat
and get caught before you're thrown out, and that those four fouls
legitimize the cheating. Oh, it's okay that I hacked his hand on the
way up to make a layup because he got two foul shots -- Now making
fouls becomes part of the strategy of the game. Is that something you
want in Ultimate? Yes, I realize that by not being able to foul out
you theoretically have an unlimited number of chances to 'cheat and
get caught', but as a deterrent I don't really see the difference
between the number 4 (which seems like ALOT of times to cheat and get
caught in a game) and as many as possible.
> 4) You're turning my words around.
I'm confused as to how I turned your words around by quoting something
you wrote and then asking a direct question? /me scratches his head
> If you read the preface, the implication
> that the reason for ALL penalties in sports is to prevent cheating. There
> is no denying this.
But... it doesn't say that does it? If that's what the UPA means, why
doesn't it just say it flat out instead of imply it?
> That's been the basis for the entire rule base of the
> sport since it's inception. Yes, there are certain rules designed
> specifically against cheating in sports.
> Football has a 'leg whipping' rule
> for example. It is almost always intentional and it is cheating. Over and
> back in basketball is NEVER cheating. It's a violation and the artificial
> boundary was put in place to foster a tighter game. It makes no sense
> whatsoever to not have traveling as a turnover in Ultimate. I can guarantee
> you, that had this been the case 30 years ago, that one change would have
> resulted in a dramatically different throwing stance today from what it is.
I guess I'm confused as to what cheating is. I thought it was
something like "intentionally breaking the rules to gain an
advantage." If that's the definition, then isn't intentionally going
over the back, or intentionally hacking someone's arm as they go up
for a layup cheating?
> Fundamentals in the game are all skewed due to the super soft boundaries of
> no penalties.
I don't follow....
> 5) The UPA coaching clinics teach these exact misguided and unsound
> fundamentals.
Really? Have you attended a coaching clinic? If not, I'd be more than
happy to personally pay the fee for you to attend. Here's where it
looks like the clinics will be held this time around:
Auburn AL
Boston MA
Los Angeles CA
Rochester NY
Philadelphia PA
Nashville TN
Montreal CANADA
Seattle WA
Pittsbrugh PA
Richmond VA
Tucson AZ
Boise ID
Houston TX
Atlanta GA
Baltimore MD
Columbus OH
I'm running the clinics in Boston, Pittsburgh, Montreal, and Houston
-- are you close to any of those cities? The exact clinic dates should
be announced in the next week or so. If you decide you want to go to
one email me at jseamon at gmail dot com and I'll take care of the
registration fee.
> Besides that, you'll have success implementing a change like
> that because it doesn't change the game. Try making traveling a turnover.
> It won't happen.
Why won't it happen?
> The real question you want to ask yourself is why not?
I just asked myself the question and I came back with the distinct
answer that it could certainly happen sometime down the road.
> 6) Play Dischoops with refs. It is phenominal. The result of the harsh
> penalities is that players improvement is radically fast. It's a very steep
> learning curve but once the adjustment is made, players' fundamentals are
> far superior to what they are on the Ultimate field.
I'll definitely keep that in mind. It sounds like a fun game to try
with my Ultimate kids up here in Northern Vermont. Is there a listing
for organized games in New England somewhere online? I'd love to see
it played in person by people who know what they are doing.
> 7) Ain't going to happen.
What isn't going to happen? I can't figure out what you're referring
to.
> The number one reason. It's untelevisable or a
> spectator sport. Out of a 60 minute match, over 30 (probably closer to 40)
> minutes is downtime. In a 14-15 point game, that's 28 minutes between
> points alone. Add to that time outs, half time, arguing/observer
> involvement, delay of game (20 seconds to put the disc in play?), etc. If
> and when players learn how to play the game and there are firm restraints in
> place to prevent excess fouling, etc., the average score should be around 45
> seconds (according to Frank).
That's one way of looking at it. As the sport grows and changes I can
certainly see alot of what you just listed change and make Ultimate a
much more watchable sport.
> 8) What is it that makes Ultimate so addicting? The 'Burning Man' type of
> culture? The tournaments/parties? The thrill of running around in cleats?
> Or the joy of Frisbee?
To me, Ultimate is so addicting because:
1) As a player it allows me to excel at all of the ranges of physical
motion that I love -- running, jumping, throwing, catching, diving,
and all the various combinations and permutations of those things.
2) The self ownership of the sport -- I love the freedom Ultimate
gives to its players.
3) The deep and multi-faceted culture surrounding the sport. Yes, I
like the Burning Man culture, but I also am completely addicted to
intense, competative levels of the sport. I am addicted to the great
friends I have inside the Ultimate community who are all so very
different.
4) Of how easy it is to make Ultimate into anything you want it to be.
You can make it super competative, or you can make it super lose. You
can have super organized games and leagues, or you can have super
loose games and leagues that spontaneously form.
5) And most importantly to me, I am addicted to the sport because of
what it allows me to teach to a spectacular number and variety of
students.
> I suggest to you that most of what you find attractive in reality is not
> inherent to the actual game of Ultimate itself, but rather many of these
> other intrinsic qualities.
I disagree. Everything I do, how hard I work, and everything I create
in the Ultimate community is based on what is inherent to the actual
game of Ultimate.
But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
> If you could retain all of these qualities and
> play a game that was even more addicting, wouldn't you at least want to give
> it a try?
Absolutely, I try other games all the time. Just because I like
Ultimate so much doesn't mean I won't or don't try other games. I play
in a faculty Volleyball League and get my hat handed to me by students
in flag football. I'm pretty killer at DDR, but not so good at DDC. I
played 12 years of rec league basketball and watch as many of my
school's home games as I can. I played 16 years of baseball in various
leagues and team -- I LOVE baseball. I've spent a good amount of time
learning how to play field hockey from some of my students who like to
run circles around me. I recently tried learning how to pitch
underhand-fast pitch softball -- lots of fun by my aim is terrible.
Outside of sports games I am the head of the schools Geek Alliance
(seriously) -- all we do is play table-top and video games.
Out of all of the games and sports that I have tried, I have found
myself most powerfully drawn to Ultimate. It is the sport I find most
rewarding and addicting.
> Dischoops is everything Ultimate should have been.
Cool, I'll be sure to check it out.
> As a
> candidate for the UPA, don't you think you have an obligation to explore the
> possibilities that the very game of Ultimate is, as I've maintained, built
> on top of a very misguided house of cards?
Sure -- But don't you think that someone running for the Board of
Directors of the UPA might have a strong amount of faith in what the
UPA stands for?
> What's the harm in spending $30
> at Home Depot and building a kit and playing a game or two. It's a lot of
> fun.
Sounds like a great plan. It seems like there is enough info on
Dischoops.com to keep me occupied for a while.
Anyway -- it's late and I have to get up in 6 hours and teach 3
sections of AP Calculus. Time to sleep for me.
- Josh
Joe Seidler
It's great to dialogue with you. I suggest you separate out the other
thread here as everyone has heard it before (over and over and over)
and it has nothing to do with making Sectionals and Regionals more
special for the players. I completely understand that it's not
possible now to make each Sectionals as special as we might like. But
making a major effort to do all the UPA can is what matters. As the
organization grows, the budget will grow; and more money can be spent
on Sectionals and Regionals.
Banners are a good idea. Anything that makes the tournaments more
special and impressive for the players. They deserve to feel special.
In case you didn't know, I was on the UPA board 2000-2002 (the only
non-player ever on the board, I think). I also published the Ultimate
History Book and think Ultimate is the best spectator sport I know,
and Ultimate athletes are the best people I know. The fact that others
(including many parents and sports fans) haven't figured that out yet
is their misfortune. Changing some rules will have no effect on the
number of spectators. That will take much more dramatic changes...
which is a whole other topic.
Thanks,
Joe
kau...@gmail.com
Your earnestness and thoroughness in replying to Frank is admirable,
but foolish.
In many circles, Frank is what you would call a troll. In this case,
his opinions may be truthful, but what he's most interested in is
getting people riled up. Don't worry about it, though, Frank's
opinions represent a pretty tiny minority (about one person) of the
ultimate population as a whole. Much luck in the race.
Oh yeah, don't let this become a thread about Frank.
- jeremy
Josh
> Hi Josh,
>
> It's great to dialogue with you. I suggest you separate out the other
> thread here as everyone has heard it before (over and over and over)
> and it has nothing to do with making Sectionals and Regionals more
> special for the players.
Agreed :)
> I completely understand that it's not
> possible now to make each Sectionals as special as we might like. But
> making a major effort to do all the UPA can is what matters. As the
> organization grows, the budget will grow; and more money can be spent
> on Sectionals and Regionals.
Absolutely. Sectionals seems like the optimal place to get the most
bang for the UPA's buck.
>
> Banners are a good idea. Anything that makes the tournaments more
> special and impressive for the players. They deserve to feel special.
When I got my program up and running here in STJ, I quickly found that
the small additions to events, practices, and team recognition added
up fast in the eyes of my players. The same could definitely work at
the Sectionals level.
> In case you didn't know, I was on the UPA board 2000-2002 (the only
> non-player ever on the board, I think). I also published the Ultimate
> History Book
Yup, I'm very aware of that Mr. Seidler ;) I actually got called by
your accomplice late one night a couple winters ago and I got all
excited that he was calling me about the Ultimate History book! It
turns out he as trying to track down the person who took the Time
Magazine photos -- Turned out he was looking for my father :)
> and think Ultimate is the best spectator sport I know,
> and Ultimate athletes are the best people I know. The fact that others
> (including many parents and sports fans) haven't figured that out yet
> is their misfortune. Changing some rules will have no effect on the
> number of spectators. That will take much more dramatic changes...
> which is a whole other topic.
Maybe we could give away free candy at games? ;)
- Josh
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
>
Josh
Thanks for the advice Jeremy :)
I guess I was pulled in a little too easily.
So, in an effort to be more specific in my line of questioning:
What's one thing you would like to see a UPA Board member do for you
in the coming year?
- Josh
Todd
> would be wonderful, but there are many locations where that isn't
> possible.
Ummm...why? If you can't put down chalk/lime, then get physical lines
(http://www.port-a-field.com/Ultimate.htm) or go to Home Depot and buy
some rope.
Other things that would be nice to standardize for sectionals/
regionals:
-trainer on-site
-at least one TD per field location (especially when Div II is played
at a separate site)
-tourney brackets posted on score reporter in advance
-add Div II to regionals (where possible at first)
Some of these ideas require more personnel. You might consider paying
the sectionals/regionals coordinators and having more than one person
assigned to each division in each section.
Todd
Frank Huguenard
>> It is an infraction to
>> hold on to the disc for ten seconds. The penalty for this infraction is
>> a
>> turnover.
>>
>> This has been so ingrained into the collective psyche in the culture that
>> people just accept it and when someone points it out, they dismiss it out
>> of
>> hand.
>
> When people point out what? Point out the contradiction that you're
> pointing out? If that's what you're specifying, what about the fact
> that I didn't dismiss and have asked you more questions so that I can
> understand what you mean? I agree that the idea that a stall = a
> turnover has been ingrained. I am also not dismissing your analysis --
> I find it interesting.
That's good. Sorry, I'm used to idiots who make stupid claims (everyone has
heard this over and over...) who don't want to wake up to the truth. Joe
Seidler has never played the game, he's got no clue about why things like
the Motion Offense obsoletes the rules, he doesn't agree with any of my
arguments and yet, in an attempt to have me silenced, he insults me and
ridicules me.
I find your attitude extremely refreshing.
>
>> But this is a contradiction.
>
> I'm beginning to understand the point you're trying to make.
It's sort of a bitter pill to swallow.
>> The rules say that there are no harsh penalities for inadvertant
>> infractions. That's either not true, or they didn't consider a turnover
>> a
>> harsh penalty.
>
> I see your point.
>
>> If that's the case, then make uncontested travels and
>> uncontested offensive fouls turnovers as well.
>
> I can definitely see that as being a possibility in the future.
>
Good luck with that.
>> 2) Option b would work but it's still falls short of the ideal. A
>> turnover
>> for offensive fouls isn't exactly fair because there's no penalty for
>> defensive fouls? Follow me? So the obvious conclusion to that stream of
>> thought is to penalize all fouls in some manner.
>
> I'm sorry, I actually don't follow you :(
If you make an offensive foul (uncontested) a turnover, that penaliizes the
offense when they commit a foul.
If you're on defense and commit a foul, there is no penalty. What do you
do? Give an extra possession to the offended team? Keep a running tally?
If offensive fouls are penalized, defensive fouls should also be penalized.
>
>
>
>> 3) Self officiating is utopian rhetoric but in practice and in
>> conjunction
>> with the fact that there are no penalities, players do not try nearly has
>> hard not to violate the rules as they would with a firmer hand guiding
>> them.
>
> Well, you are certainly entitled to believe that. I for one don't. But
> I completely recognize how someone could feel that way. If I had to
> compare how hard the kids I coach in Ultimate work at not violating
> the rules, to the ones playing other sports, I could certainly make a
> strong argument that my Ultimate kids works MUCH harder to play by the
> rules. And I'll even compare the Ultimate kids to themselves when they
> are playing other sports. I just don't believe that 'utopian rhetoric'
> necessarily equals some lesser need to follow the rules.
Hmmm.
There are a great many players here on the west coast who strongly believe
that they also try very hard to play by the rules. They get very offended
when I accuse them of not.
My take on it is that after 25 years of this, there are a bunch of unwritten
rules that people play the game by that don't match the actual rules at all.
So yes, people try very hard to play by these unwritten rules. I won't
argue that point.
I know that all of the teams I watched at Labor Day in Santa Cruz all played
a fairly illegal style of ultimate.
>> If you have 4 fouls on you and a 5th foul means you're out of the game,
>> are
>> you going to try extra hard not to foul? Is that penalty in place to
>> ensure
>> you don't cheat?
>
> Yes, but another way to look at it is that you have 4 chances to cheat
> and get caught before you're thrown out, and that those four fouls
> legitimize the cheating. Oh, it's okay that I hacked his hand on the
> way up to make a layup because he got two foul shots -- Now making
> fouls becomes part of the strategy of the game. Is that something you
> want in Ultimate?
I'm not sure.
Before I answer that though, I wasn't proposing fouling out (I'm not sure it
would even work without refs.). My point was to get you to think.
Would you try harder not to foul if your next foul meant you sitting on the
bench the rest of the game? Get it? It takes the argument to the extreme
but Ultimate is the other extreme
As for your concern, I do know that this can be metered. If you want to
avoid that (or the even worse scenerio that you left out, the thug that
comes off the bench and commits 5 fouls in 2 minutes), you could instill a
much stricter level. For instance, limit it to 2 fouls or 3 fouls and your
out. This can send a message to prevent the kind of intentional fouling
you're concerned about. The lack of referees makes having things like
flagrant fouls delineated.
Think of your strictest disciplinarian teacher/coach growing up. Piano
lessons, figure skating, etc. It doesn't have to be real. Students of this
kind of instructor will have the most sound fundamentals (assuming of course
that the teacher/coach had a solid basis for their teaching).
In UItimate, from a throwing mechanic point of view, the way that most
people stand is fundamentally unsound. Having all your weight on your non
pivot foot with nothing on your pivot foot and just the toe of your pivot
foot on the ground is horrible mechanics. This style is a direct result of
the fact that there is no penalty for traveling. Again, to take my above
argument to the extreme, if you were thrown out of the game for traveling,
would you stand there with just your pivot toe on the ground? No. It would
be way to risky. But this style of play has been ingrained because it's
easier to get around (I won't say break) the mark this way.
>> 5) The UPA coaching clinics teach these exact misguided and unsound
>> fundamentals.
>
> Really? Have you attended a coaching clinic? If not, I'd be more than
> happy to personally pay the fee for you to attend. Here's where it
> looks like the clinics will be held this time around:
You should probably understand, I consider Parinella's book fundametally
wrong. I disagree with the way the UPA indoctrinates their dogma on it's
constituents.
Thanks for the offer though.
Find out for yourself.
>
>> The real question you want to ask yourself is why not?
>
> I just asked myself the question and I came back with the distinct
> answer that it could certainly happen sometime down the road.
Down the road? Why not now? Why not instill these changes right now. Play
them with your HS team. Publish them on the internet so people know the
standard you play by and when you go to a tournament, invoke the captain's
clause and politely ask the other team if they'd abide by your rules.
>> 6) Play Dischoops with refs. It is phenominal. The result of the harsh
>> penalities is that players improvement is radically fast. It's a very
>> steep
>> learning curve but once the adjustment is made, players' fundamentals are
>> far superior to what they are on the Ultimate field.
>
> I'll definitely keep that in mind. It sounds like a fun game to try
> with my Ultimate kids up here in Northern Vermont. Is there a listing
> for organized games in New England somewhere online? I'd love to see
> it played in person by people who know what they are doing.
Hopefully I'll have a full length video at some point.
>
>> 7) Ain't going to happen.
>
> What isn't going to happen? I can't figure out what you're referring
> to.
Ultimate becoming 'mainstream' in the sense that it is no longer ridiculed
by the general population.
>
>> The number one reason. It's untelevisable or a
>> spectator sport. Out of a 60 minute match, over 30 (probably closer to
>> 40)
>> minutes is downtime. In a 14-15 point game, that's 28 minutes between
>> points alone. Add to that time outs, half time, arguing/observer
>> involvement, delay of game (20 seconds to put the disc in play?), etc.
>> If
>> and when players learn how to play the game and there are firm restraints
>> in
>> place to prevent excess fouling, etc., the average score should be around
>> 45
>> seconds (according to Frank).
>
> That's one way of looking at it. As the sport grows and changes I can
> certainly see alot of what you just listed change and make Ultimate a
> much more watchable sport.
Spoken like a true politition.
>
>
>> 8) What is it that makes Ultimate so addicting? The 'Burning Man' type
>> of
>> culture? The tournaments/parties? The thrill of running around in
>> cleats?
>> Or the joy of Frisbee?
>
> To me, Ultimate is so addicting because:
> 1) As a player it allows me to excel at all of the ranges of physical
> motion that I love -- running, jumping, throwing, catching, diving,
> and all the various combinations and permutations of those things.
> 2) The self ownership of the sport -- I love the freedom Ultimate
> gives to its players.
> 3) The deep and multi-faceted culture surrounding the sport. Yes, I
> like the Burning Man culture, but I also am completely addicted to
> intense, competative levels of the sport. I am addicted to the great
> friends I have inside the Ultimate community who are all so very
> different.
> 4) Of how easy it is to make Ultimate into anything you want it to be.
> You can make it super competative
No. Competetive Ultimate is an oxymoron. You don't know this because you
don't run my offense.
My offense makes a joke of the rules.
>, or you can make it super lose. You
> can have super organized games and leagues, or you can have super
> loose games and leagues that spontaneously form.
> 5) And most importantly to me, I am addicted to the sport because of
> what it allows me to teach to a spectacular number and variety of
> students.
So all these things plus more you get with Dischoops. I didn't hear
anything of what you're addicted to that screams "Ultimate". You're not
addicted to double teams being illegal, you're not addicted to picks being
illegal, you're not addicted to 25 yard long endzones, you're not addicted
to hucks (thank god, how boring), you're not addicted to no penalties, etc.
Dischoops has all of what attracts you to ultimate and it is a much, much
better sport.
>
>
>
>> I suggest to you that most of what you find attractive in reality is not
>> inherent to the actual game of Ultimate itself, but rather many of these
>> other intrinsic qualities.
>
> I disagree. Everything I do, how hard I work, and everything I create
> in the Ultimate community is based on what is inherent to the actual
> game of Ultimate.
I think you're confusing the Culture of ulimate to the game itself.
Walk (actually cut) a mile in my shoes. Try running the kind of offense
that I like to run and being stopped by bogus calls or getting hacked.
Ultimate works for you because you conform to the system of offense that is
promulgated through the self perpetuating culture.
> But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
>
>
>> If you could retain all of these qualities and
>> play a game that was even more addicting, wouldn't you at least want to
>> give
>> it a try?
>
> Absolutely, I try other games all the time. Just because I like
> Ultimate so much doesn't mean I won't or don't try other games. I play
> in a faculty Volleyball League and get my hat handed to me by students
> in flag football. I'm pretty killer at DDR
Dance Dance Revolution? I've never tried this with a disc.
>, but not so good at DDC. I
> played 12 years of rec league basketball and watch as many of my
> school's home games as I can. I played 16 years of baseball in various
> leagues and team -- I LOVE baseball. I've spent a good amount of time
> learning how to play field hockey from some of my students who like to
> run circles around me. I recently tried learning how to pitch
> underhand-fast pitch softball -- lots of fun by my aim is terrible.
> Outside of sports games I am the head of the schools Geek Alliance
> (seriously) -- all we do is play table-top and video games.
>
> Out of all of the games and sports that I have tried, I have found
> myself most powerfully drawn to Ultimate. It is the sport I find most
> rewarding and addicting.
I've played Ultimate for 28 years and played over 4,000 times. I know
something about addiction.
Dischoops isn't DDC or some other contrievance.
It is my answer to Ultimate.
>
>
>> Dischoops is everything Ultimate should have been.
>
> Cool, I'll be sure to check it out.
>
>
>> As a
>> candidate for the UPA, don't you think you have an obligation to explore
>> the
>> possibilities that the very game of Ultimate is, as I've maintained,
>> built
>> on top of a very misguided house of cards?
>
> Sure -- But don't you think that someone running for the Board of
> Directors of the UPA might have a strong amount of faith in what the
> UPA stands for?
YES!!!!
This is exactly why I'm asking you to question your beliefs!!!! Is UItimate
a religion?
What exactly does the UPA stand for? Why isn't there a single candidate
that has a platform of change? Real, significant change.
"I pledge that if elected, I will pursue x, y and z changes in the rules of
the game"? I'm not suggesting that person will get elected, maybe not even
get any votes by does this not sound a lot like communism when all the
candidates are all drinking out of the same container of Kool Aid?
The rules right now should be called the Official rules to Ultimate 9.1.2.
There have not been any major revision in many years and yet the UPA keeps
spewing out a new rev. every couple of years.
The game has remained the same. The rules are simply not very well thought
out. Why is double teaming illegal? Why isn't there a hard cap of the
number of steps for traveling (3)?
My suggestion for you to play Dischoops is not meant for you to 'play for
the other side' but rather, to get you to question what the UPA stands for.
Why should it be illegal to swat the disc out of the thrower's hand? Don't
just theorize an answer. Play dischoops and find out. You'll be surprised
with the answer.
>> What's the harm in spending $30
>> at Home Depot and building a kit and playing a game or two. It's a lot
>> of
>> fun.
>
> Sounds like a great plan. It seems like there is enough info on
> Dischoops.com to keep me occupied for a while.
>
>
> Anyway -- it's late and I have to get up in 6 hours and teach 3
> sections of AP Calculus. Time to sleep for me.
Thanks Josh.
>
>
> - Josh
>
Frank Huguenard
<kau...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191480239....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Josh,
>
> Your earnestness and thoroughness in replying to Frank is admirable,
> but foolish.
>
> In many circles, Frank is what you would call a troll.
I am not trolling.
Josh, this is what I was referring to when I said "This has been so
ingrained into the collective psyche in the culture that
people just accept it and when someone points it out, they dismiss it out
of hand."
My position runs contrary with the majority. People will insult me, condemn
me or say anything to discredit me.
> In this case,
> his opinions may be truthful, but what he's most interested in is
> getting people riled up.
That is ridiculous.
I'm interested in change.
My position inherently riles people up but that is not my intention.
My intention is to bring about reform but as long as candidates such as
yourself go along with the status quo, then reform can never happen.
> Don't worry about it, though, Frank's
> opinions represent a pretty tiny minority (about one person) of the
> ultimate population as a whole.
So? Does that mean that my assertions are wrong?
The Ultimate population represents a pretty tiny minority of the worldwide
sporting population as a whole.
This 'herd' mentallity that Jeremy is ejaculating here is a huge part of the
problem.
> Much luck in the race.
>
> Oh yeah, don't let this become a thread about Frank.
It's not about me fool. It's never been about me. It's about UItimate and
why it has remained stagnant, unwatchable, unrespected, obscure and boring.
> - jeremy
>
ulticritic
> Re: Shorts
> A. It is important to be able to identify players from the front as
> well as the back. For example, many of the best Ultimate pictures are
> from the front, where you can't see jersey numbers.
i thought the concensus was that having the shorts numbered didnt
really work in serving that purpose
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Along those lines:
> Q. Why does the UPA have uniform requirements?
> A. The UPA Championships have importance beyond just the competing
> teams. These events present an opportunity to promote the sport, which
> is one of the missions of the UPA. Towards that end, non-players
> (including observers, photographers, journalists, fans, and stat-
> keepers) need to be able to identify and distinguish between teams and
> players. The tournament is also one of the UPA's showcase events, and
> it is important that the sport be presented in its best light
well why not start by disallowing those stupid looking mismatching
backwards trucker hats to be worn
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's championship level events only - Events where teams have already
> invested a huge amount of time, energy, and money. Is $2-4 per player
> more really that big of a deal?
but it effects everybody/team that might have an outside chance of
making it. Personally i do like making teams look more standardized
and official.......i think part of the big problem most had with it
initially was the process and timing of the mandate......and even how
the regulation was conveyed to those effected.....which was the
college kids last spring after alot of em had already ordered unies.
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Re: Listing disc sports collections
am i the only one here that dosent know what the fuck this means???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Re: ulticritic
> I always love reading your posts Toad
thas part of my MO
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I like the idea of creating an
> Elite Division. That would be a good way to promote the sport. What do
> you think of the MLU games?
well as the chief architec and founder of major league ultimate i am a
little bias.......so, its obviously a spectacular idea.......why it
didnt take i'm still trying to figure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Getting the financial burden off of the
> players for this kind of event should also be a major priority - good
> point.
>
> I also completely agree with the idea that the opinions of the
> membership should be more actively and frequently taken in. Keeping is
> simple by incorporating surveys into membership forms is a fantastic
> idea.
>
> Equitable pay scales and improved standards are also certainly a big
> deal.
yes......most of these things are really no brainers......its just a
matter of actually putting em into practice. Maybe thats the big
hurdle though......the effort part
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> I do not agree with segregating women and men. I do agree that the
> increased growth in the mixed division has hurt both the womens and
> the open divisions, but there are other ways to solve that issue that
> segregation. What about changing the mixed division to the summer?
at least that.......and maybe summer should be the time for it as most
are used to playing mixed summer league........or spring could
work......but at the very least segregate the seasons
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Also, are you at all serious when you say "...participation levels it is
> simply not safe. Has anyone looked into the liability issues of a
> death occuring in official upa comp in which a woman were to colide
> with a man twice her size." (I sometimes have a very hard time telling
> when you're serious and when you're being snarky.)
i'm "dead" serious. I actually studied recreation in college and i
took a "legal issues" class that covered, amoungst other things, risk
management.......of which, does the upa even have a "risk management"
plan? Another interesting tidbit i got from that class is that
signing a waivor dont mean shit......in essence it even makes you more
liable as you are pretty much conveying that there is an inherant risk
to begin with. So all i'm sayin is that with the increase in mixed
participation along with the amount of guy/girl collisions that
already occur (in which most of the time the girl gets plastered) be
prepared for a fatal or near fatal outcome and seriously think about
how it will be delt with........on both social and legal levels.
----------------------------------------------------------
> should be applied? I like Toad's idea of having info tents. I wonder
> if the UPA has tried to pickup large sponsors?
another no brainer
ulticritic
> Getting sponsors may be difficult. Ultimate doesn't attract many
> sponsors since players don't need to buy too much from vendors. That's
> why I suggest using more of the UPA budget. Spend it on Sectionals
> which is the only place all UPA members participate.
definitly putting more upa resources into these events is a must but
once you do that you are creating an atmousphere that is more
condusive to attract potential sponsors....so......why not just go the
extra mile and try to solicit a national title sponsor. The notion of
a corporation attatching their brand to a series of events that would
be exposed to a mass audience is bound to have more appeal to it that
attempting to farm it out on a singular event concept. Taco bell for
instance.......they could not only get exposure as a title sponsor but
as well sell product at a reasonable price and their is your food
service......its a win win situation. Getting more exposure for
discraft and some unie supplier could be worked in as product sponsors
too.
Point is....just dont discount the idea......think big, think outside
the box and go for it......never up, never in.....as they say
ulticritic
<fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:.
this is a great point that frank makes.......when it comes to
sponsorship in the sports entertainment industry its.....no
show.....no business. So if ultimate and/or the upa wants to try and
cash in on the potential sponsorship revenue thats out there they have
to address this "watchable" issue frank brings up. The thing the upa
series has going for it is shear numbers (which are still probably
modest for most corps to justify investing) but if other creative
youth oriented programs were incorporated into sectional and regional
events there might be more buzz, more of an audience and more
interest. Still, though, at the end of the day the final presentation
of the sport HAS to be entertaining......bells and whistles.....been
sreamin it for years........maybe one of you future board members will
wake up and smell the coffee soon......Josh???
ulticritic
> and try some radical new ideas. For example, after coaching lots and
> lots and lots of youth Ultimate over the past 5 years, I would LOVE to
> see how the game would work with active refs and foul counts.
well lets start the madness........and heres how you go about doing
that.......go ref your next pick up game......its not rocket science
and you dont need anyones consent or approval (other than those
participating). The amazing thing is that what you will find out is
how liberating of an experience it is and how ultimate can inturn be
enjoyed at a whole other level.....for those playing as well as those
watching.
As someone that is taking a step towards representing the sport and
the members of the upa i would say that it is your duty to experiment
and research this dynamic of ultimate as it is such a polarizing and
controversial issue. As a board member it is your responsibility to
have a full understanding of what this experience is all about.....so
go check it out. As i'v always said....referee is easy as 1(knowledge
of the rules), 2 (good judgement),3 (proper field mechanics)
ultimatep...@gmail.com
<fhuguenard(no_spam)@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
< I am not trolling.
i love this. especialy followed in the next post with this,
< Sorry, I'm used to idiots who make stupid claims who don't want to
ulticritic
> In case you didn't know, I was on the UPA board 2000-2002 (the only
> non-player ever on the board, I think). I also published the Ultimate
> History Book and think Ultimate is the best spectator sport I know,
> and Ultimate athletes are the best people I know.
first off, being a board member or writing a book dosent qualify joe
to understand the intracasies of the sports marketing industry.
Ultimate atheats may be the best people that joe know but hes
obviously bias and hes problably never gotten to know an different
group of sports people.....so he has no comparison. And being good
people dosent mean squat when trying to attract sponsorship dollars or
get exposure. Now being "the best spectator sport" has everything to
do with it.....of which, in its present state, ultimate aint. Maybe
to joe seidler it is (but remember hes bias).....but to joe public it
aint. If it were......well we wouldnt be havin this dialouge now
would we.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that others
> (including many parents and sports fans) haven't figured that out yet
> is their misfortune.
NO.....its ultimates' misfortune. There are plenty of sporting
activities out there to become involved in and they are all pretty
much the same (with the exception of the disc). They all teach the
same things, teamwork, leadership, sportsmanship, etc. Ultimate is
stagnating and getting passed up by the likes of spelling bee's and
jump rope. Whats wrong with putting your best foot forward and
appling some effort in making your sport more entertaining, more
watchabel and more marketable. And believe me.....its gonna take a
helluva a lot more than just some banner. You need substance to any
product your trying to sell, not just fluff.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Changing some rules will have no effect on the
> number of spectators. That will take much more dramatic changes...
> which is a whole other topic.
Bzzt, wrong again. Changing the rules will have a huge effect on the
number of spectators as it will initially have a huge effect on the
entertainment value. You yourself, Josh< exclaimed how you would love
to see how refs and rule changes would effect the game. Dont deprive
yourself of that dream. It takes someone that is truley objective to
the merrits of the whole sports world to see the value in having
ultimate conform to the rest, of what most believe to be the norm, in
the sports entertainment industry.
Joe Buck
I'm interested in increasing the UPA's involvement in league play.
I have no problem with Toad's insistence that the future is in
refereed games, but I think the UPA should be more concerned with
growth at the youth level. Sort of in the way that the AYSO is
totally separate from the MSL in soccer. I don't think of the UPA's
only involvement in ultimate as being the series. To me the UPA is
the governing body that oversees the growth of the entire sport.
Growth excites me way more than getting on tv.
I love playing hockey, but I almost never watch it. Is it because
it's boring? Not really. I go to minor league games every few years
and enjoy myself, but when it's on tv I can pretty much always find
something else to do. I would imagine ultimate would be the same
way. I'm usually bored out of my skull at a live football game, but
I'll watch that on tv. Maybe because I can always leave if I don't
care what's happening.
I really enjoy playing ultimate without refs. I play other sports
with refs and find myself disgusted with perceived partisan calls from
refs much more than I find myself disgusted with self officiated calls
in ultimate.
Maybe you should look into growth?
Is it through focusing on supporting city leagues with backing for
insurance/field fees/sponsorship of jerseys? Is it through certifying
coaches for youth participation? Is it through making the series more
attractive for a greater number of players to join in? Is it through
pushing for standardization in college ultimate? Is it through roster
limits?
Or maybe let me look into it since I'm also running for the UPA board.
Frank Huguenard
Joe's comments are interesting to say the least.
Ultimate is the best spectator sport you know?
A sport that doesn't have any spectators besides yourself? It's boring Joe.
Great people? Maybe.
Great spectator sport? On what basis are you making this claim?
Besides with having to put up with over 50% dead air, when I watch ultimate,
even at the highest levels, I witness teams playing by rules that are based
more on urban legend than on reality, I see poorly thought out offensive
strategies, I see 50% of goals scored illegally off of violations, I see
teams rush the field after every score as if they'd won the national
championship, I see the arguing of yesteryear having been replaced with
almost a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy where less calls are made (I won't
call traveling on you if you don't call it on me), I don't see a single
player with adequate play making abilities (vis a vis a point guard in
basketball). Not one.
You see Joe, like it or not, I've seen a style of Ultimate that is far
superior to what you call a 'the best spectator sport there is' and when
this style meets your wonderful version, the end result is culture clash.
It gets ugly really quick. The rules for the game simply never took into
account the kind of sophistication that occurs when you bring in the best
ideologies of other sports. When I attempt to bring this to light, you
label me a 'babbler'.
You don't know dick about ultimate.
I am a student of the game. Unlike you, Ultimate has been my life. You can
insult me all you want but the truth remains, the framework for Ultimate is
very ill-conceived and misguided. The lack of penalization is flat out
stupid. The labeling of the sport as non-contact is insane. Show your
intelligence here Joe, insult me some more.
However, if you want to see a really awesome spectator sport, I'll invite
you out to a Dischoops game sometime this winter. Then you tell me that
ultimate is a great spectator sport.
"ulticritic" <t...@ec.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1191519644....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Frank Huguenard
eliciting a negative response from the readers.
My intention is not to upset people rather it is to be an agent of change.
I really don't care if I'm a minority of 1.
My basic position (that much of the framework for Ultimate is hair-brained)
is fundamentally upsetting to players.
Are you insinuating that I've taken this position to be intentionally
upsetting? That is rich.
Is there an easy way to get this message across without 'trolling'?
<ultimatep...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191518428.6...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Frank Huguenard
> of the rules), 2 (good judgement),3 (proper field mechanics)
>
Todd, there is something missing in this (although it does require good
judgment).
A large part of a referee's job, especially in a game like basketball, is to
meter the way the game is played.
For instance, in making traveling calls, a referee will take into account
the amount of effort a given player makes in adhering to the rules. Player
A who obviously plays hard to never travel may catch a break whereas player
B who constantly demonstrates carelessness will get called more often.
A ref also sets the bar on where the fouls are and can control the
physicallity of a given game in real time.
These two things are examples of an aspect in reffing that self refereeing
can't possibly do.