Ganguly dropped from the Indian squad - W Jaffer in !

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Paji

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Dec 14, 2005, 4:04:07 AM12/14/05
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Sense has prevailed! Yuvraj retained for the third Test!

New Delhi, Dec 14 (PTI) Sourav Ganguly was today dropped from the
Indian squad for the third cricket Test against Sri Lanka beginning in
Ahmedabad on Sunday.

Mumbai opener Wasim Jaffer replaces Ganguly in the squad.

The national selectors also decided to retained Rahul Dravid as the
captain of the Indian team for the upcoming series against Pakistan and
England. PTI

http://www.ptinews.com/pti/ptisite.nsf/$All/14B253DC18CCBD65652570D700315239?OpenDocument

Artist google

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Dec 14, 2005, 8:19:29 AM12/14/05
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I think, they would have continued with Ganguli.
Should make Pathan or Yuvraj as opener, or even Ganguli.

VJ

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Dec 14, 2005, 11:52:33 AM12/14/05
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How about Harbhajan as opener (I mean, why not?). For once it seems
like the team selection has some method to it. We need solid openers in
Pakistan and the slot in the MO now is deserved by Yuvraj. Would people
be happy if Ganguly was in the squad but not in the XI? That would have
a different set of people screaming and moaning about a 15,000+ run
maker being given shoddy treatment.

SCG was selected in the first place due to pressure from selectors and
threats of chaos at Eden Gardens. And I am confident that if Yuvi and
Kaif do diddly squat in the coming tests, SCG will be back in the team.
He just needs to keep posting big scores in the domestics. Forcing your
way in on the basis of performance is the best way do things. Why go
where no one wants you (at least the cap'n and coach)?

Southpaw

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Dec 14, 2005, 12:57:56 PM12/14/05
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VJ wrote:
> How about Harbhajan as opener (I mean, why not?). For once it seems
> like the team selection has some method to it. We need solid openers in
> Pakistan and the slot in the MO now is deserved by Yuvraj. Would people
> be happy if Ganguly was in the squad but not in the XI? That would have

Personally, I wouldn't care. The best squad should be chosen. The
selectors can make it clear that Ganguly is being chosen in the XIV
because he is among the top 5 middle-order bats in the country, and his
experience is invaluable, but that Yuvraj has the #6 position locked up
as of now. They can make it clear that, of the top 5 m-o bats in the
country, Ganguly is thought to be 5th.

Right now Kaif is in the test XIV but Ganguly is not. This probably
won't be a big deal, but if Yuvraj slips in the bathroom on the morning
of the Ahmedabad test, Mohammad Kaif will play a test match for India
ahead of Sourav Ganguly. That IMO is a *travesty*.

If Yuvraj fails tomorrow, who is next in line to replace him? The man
who already made the test XIV, or the man who didn't? If Kaif replaces
Yuvraj, Ganguly will wonder, "what wrong did I do?", and if Ganguly
replaces Yuvraj, Kaif will wonder the same.

In general, Indian selectors do a very poor job of outlining the role
of a particular player. If someone is picked, what is his role in the
team? (I will be perfectly happy if they even say, well, he's been
picked but honestly we don't expect him to make the XI, unless XYZ is
injured.) If someone is dropped, what must he do to return? Who is the
backup for each spot in the XI?

> a different set of people screaming and moaning about a 15,000+ run
> maker being given shoddy treatment.
>
> SCG was selected in the first place due to pressure from selectors and
> threats of chaos at Eden Gardens.

Here I was thinking 4 FC hundreds in the last 6 months, in 3 different
continents, had something to do with it.

And I am confident that if Yuvi and
> Kaif do diddly squat in the coming tests, SCG will be back in the team.

So Ganguly is now behind Kaif also in the pecking order? Ganguly, who
scored 4 FC 100s in the last 6 months, and scored crucial 40 and 39 in
his last test (more than Gambhir, Dravid, and Yuvraj), vs. Kaif who has
5 FC hundreds in his career.

> He just needs to keep posting big scores in the domestics. Forcing your

And what about Kaif? What does he need to do to force his way into the
XI?

> way in on the basis of performance is the best way do things. Why go
> where no one wants you (at least the cap'n and coach)?

Why don't captain and coach come out openly and say it, if that's the
case? Tell the man what is expected of him. As one of India's best ever
captains, at least give him that much.

-Samarth.

VJ

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Dec 14, 2005, 2:44:48 PM12/14/05
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I agree with a lot of what you say esp the comment about Kaif. However,
I think it is better for Ganguly to make his case by making lots of
runs and shutting up everyone around him. Right now he has little
chance of playing if both coach and captain dont want him.

I dont think Yuvraj and Kaif will find things easy as part of the test
team. If they are successful, all kudos to them. But I'm pretty sure
Gangs can come back with some big performances on the domestic circuit.
Whether he is up to it is another matter altogether.

Loony Tunes

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Dec 14, 2005, 2:55:40 PM12/14/05
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VJ wrote:
>
> But I'm pretty sure
> Gangs can come back with some big performances on the domestic circuit.

I think you are following what happened in the domestics in the very
recent past. Gangs has done reasonably well. How many more performances
does he have to come up with before the moves in before a hack called
Kaif.

> Whether he is up to it is another matter altogether.

Going by the way things have been handled, I think KolKatta might
convert Eden Gardens into a Football stadium and banish the Indian team
from playing there forever.

Truly pathetic. It would have been just fine if they retained the same
team for T3 and taken Jaffer in place of Kaif or whoever to Pak.

If Jaffer sits out of T3 or even Gambhir out of T3 what purpose did
Ganguly's exclusion serve ?

VJ

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Dec 14, 2005, 4:00:44 PM12/14/05
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I think Saurav himself should prefer being out rather than in the
squad. Whats the point
of being in the XV if he does not get to play? He is better served by
making lots of runs
in the meantime so that every time Yuvraj or Kaif fails, people can
point to the centuries
SCG is hitting in the domestics. If he stays with the squad but does
not get games,
people will just say - well so what if Yuvraj scored 20 and got out
against SL or Pak?
Even SCG scored only two forties against SL and his recent test level
century was
against lowly Zim.

I think this situation works better for SCG given the state of affairs
in the Indian team at present.

Sears Tower

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Dec 14, 2005, 4:31:34 PM12/14/05
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"Southpaw" <arb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134583076.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
> VJ wrote:
> > How about Harbhajan as opener (I mean, why not?). For once it seems
> > like the team selection has some method to it. We need solid openers in
> > Pakistan and the slot in the MO now is deserved by Yuvraj. Would people
> > be happy if Ganguly was in the squad but not in the XI? That would have
>
> Personally, I wouldn't care. The best squad should be chosen. The
> selectors can make it clear that Ganguly is being chosen in the XIV
> because he is among the top 5 middle-order bats in the country, and his
> experience is invaluable, but that Yuvraj has the #6 position locked up
> as of now. They can make it clear that, of the top 5 m-o bats in the
> country, Ganguly is thought to be 5th.
Personally to me it has been made very clear that he indeed is among the
top 5 middle-order bats by the various actions of the
selectors/captain/coach.
He was in ahead of Yuvraj in the first test.
When Sehwag went down they included Yuvraj who was in tremendous form.
During the 2nd test and considering Yuvraj's form it was clear that Ganguly
should not play ahead of Yuvraj.

>
> Right now Kaif is in the test XIV but Ganguly is not. This probably
> won't be a big deal, but if Yuvraj slips in the bathroom on the morning
> of the Ahmedabad test, Mohammad Kaif will play a test match for India
> ahead of Sourav Ganguly. That IMO is a *travesty*.

maybe not, they may open with Jaffer, Gambhir and play Sehwag in the MO.
who would you rather have as your 12th man, Kaif or Ganguly?

You said in another post that "the dropping of a former captain is a
very, very sensitive issue, and needs great care. Let alone one of the
most successful captains India has ever had"
So obviously having him in the squad but to not include him in the
playing XI would be even more sensitive. This way is better, than to see
him bring in a change of gloves for Dhoni.


>
> If Yuvraj fails tomorrow, who is next in line to replace him? The man
> who already made the test XIV, or the man who didn't? If Kaif replaces
> Yuvraj, Ganguly will wonder, "what wrong did I do?", and if Ganguly
> replaces Yuvraj, Kaif will wonder the same.

It is clearly Ganguly. No one has to wonder. The squad has adequate
backups and Kaif owes his spot to him being a better fielder than
Ganguly and the fact that Ganguly has been a previous successful
captain to be not included in the playing XI.


>
> In general, Indian selectors do a very poor job of outlining the role
> of a particular player. If someone is picked, what is his role in the
> team? (I will be perfectly happy if they even say, well, he's been
> picked but honestly we don't expect him to make the XI, unless XYZ is
> injured.) If someone is dropped, what must he do to return? Who is the
> backup for each spot in the XI?

More was pretty clear with what he said wrt to Ganguly/Yuvraj.
And even before teams were announced Ganguly was praised by
Dravid.

>
> > a different set of people screaming and moaning about a 15,000+ run
> > maker being given shoddy treatment.
> >
> > SCG was selected in the first place due to pressure from selectors and
> > threats of chaos at Eden Gardens.
>
> Here I was thinking 4 FC hundreds in the last 6 months, in 3 different
> continents, had something to do with it.
>
> And I am confident that if Yuvi and
> > Kaif do diddly squat in the coming tests, SCG will be back in the team.
>
> So Ganguly is now behind Kaif also in the pecking order? Ganguly, who
> scored 4 FC 100s in the last 6 months, and scored crucial 40 and 39 in
> his last test (more than Gambhir, Dravid, and Yuvraj), vs. Kaif who has
> 5 FC hundreds in his career.
>
> > He just needs to keep posting big scores in the domestics. Forcing your
>
> And what about Kaif? What does he need to do to force his way into the
> XI?

He has to wait for Laxman/Yuvraj/Ganguly to fail and continue to have the
odd match winning ODI innings.
Unless of course he goes back to the domestics and scores heavily:-) and
goes ahead of the other 3.

>
> > way in on the basis of performance is the best way do things. Why go
> > where no one wants you (at least the cap'n and coach)?
>
> Why don't captain and coach come out openly and say it, if that's the
> case? Tell the man what is expected of him. As one of India's best ever
> captains, at least give him that much.

The captain did say that openly to the press in a round about way.
" He played very well in both innings"
"I'm sure he'll be disappointed that he did not go on and make a bigger
score."
>
> -Samarth.
>


Southpaw

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Dec 14, 2005, 5:10:27 PM12/14/05
to

Sears Tower wrote:
> "Southpaw" <arb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1134583076.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > VJ wrote:
> > > How about Harbhajan as opener (I mean, why not?). For once it seems
> > > like the team selection has some method to it. We need solid openers in
> > > Pakistan and the slot in the MO now is deserved by Yuvraj. Would people
> > > be happy if Ganguly was in the squad but not in the XI? That would have
> >
> > Personally, I wouldn't care. The best squad should be chosen. The
> > selectors can make it clear that Ganguly is being chosen in the XIV
> > because he is among the top 5 middle-order bats in the country, and his
> > experience is invaluable, but that Yuvraj has the #6 position locked up
> > as of now. They can make it clear that, of the top 5 m-o bats in the
> > country, Ganguly is thought to be 5th.
> Personally to me it has been made very clear that he indeed is among the
> top 5 middle-order bats by the various actions of the
> selectors/captain/coach.
> He was in ahead of Yuvraj in the first test.
> When Sehwag went down they included Yuvraj who was in tremendous form.
> During the 2nd test and considering Yuvraj's form it was clear that Ganguly
> should not play ahead of Yuvraj.

Ok so far.

> > Right now Kaif is in the test XIV but Ganguly is not. This probably
> > won't be a big deal, but if Yuvraj slips in the bathroom on the morning
> > of the Ahmedabad test, Mohammad Kaif will play a test match for India
> > ahead of Sourav Ganguly. That IMO is a *travesty*.
> maybe not, they may open with Jaffer, Gambhir and play Sehwag in the MO.
> who would you rather have as your 12th man, Kaif or Ganguly?

I am not sure superior 12th man skills are important in picking a
squad.

Considering that Sehwag is still uncertain for T3, I would be happier
seeing Ganguly as the backup rather than either of Gambhir and Kaif.
Moreover, even if Sehwag is fully fit, it is Gambhir and Kaif who need
a prolonged run in FC cricket, not Ganguly, who played and did well in
the last 6 months.

> You said in another post that "the dropping of a former captain is a
> very, very sensitive issue, and needs great care. Let alone one of the
> most successful captains India has ever had"
> So obviously having him in the squad but to not include him in the
> playing XI would be even more sensitive. This way is better, than to see
> him bring in a change of gloves for Dhoni.

This is a good point, but if the egos are smoothed, and if Ganguly is
told the cold facts: he is thought to be worse currently than Yuvraj
but better than Kaif/Gambhir, and the best squad hence leaves him as
12th man, then I think there is no harm. Taking great care means
picking your best squad, and yet not alienating anyone.

> > If Yuvraj fails tomorrow, who is next in line to replace him? The man
> > who already made the test XIV, or the man who didn't? If Kaif replaces
> > Yuvraj, Ganguly will wonder, "what wrong did I do?", and if Ganguly
> > replaces Yuvraj, Kaif will wonder the same.
> It is clearly Ganguly. No one has to wonder. The squad has adequate
> backups and Kaif owes his spot to him being a better fielder than
> Ganguly

Except that with Sehwag ill, there is a chance Kaif will play.

Also, let's take the issue of the team selection for Pakistan. Dravid,
SRT, Sehwag, Laxman, and Yuvraj are sure. We also need 3 openers, so
Jaffer and Gambhir will probably both go. (Or Gambhir will be replaced
by Jadhav or some other opener.) Which will leave one slot: Ganguly or
Kaif? Better 12th man or better batsman?

And if Kaif is dropped, he has a right to complain. He was picked in
the Indian squad, thus deprived of FC games. Then, when it came to
picking the best team for Pakistan, he was dropped...

And if Ganguly is dropped, of course, he also will complain... After a
good show at FC level and in the tests that he got, Kaif was picked in
his place...

How will he go back to domestics if you keep picking him for tests on
the basis of his 12th man ability? How many Ranji games has he played
for UP this season?

-Samarth.

Sears Tower

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Dec 14, 2005, 5:48:20 PM12/14/05
to
"Southpaw" <arb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134598227.7...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Sears Tower wrote:
> > > Right now Kaif is in the test XIV but Ganguly is not. This probably
> > > won't be a big deal, but if Yuvraj slips in the bathroom on the
morning
> > > of the Ahmedabad test, Mohammad Kaif will play a test match for India
> > > ahead of Sourav Ganguly. That IMO is a *travesty*.
> > maybe not, they may open with Jaffer, Gambhir and play Sehwag in the MO.
> > who would you rather have as your 12th man, Kaif or Ganguly?
>
> I am not sure superior 12th man skills are important in picking a
> squad.
They are not for a full tour, but for a last test at home I see no problems
considering other factors like ex captain, playing XI etc...
It is not like Ganguly needs to absorb things by being in the squad.
It might help a VRV Singh, RP Singh...

>
> Considering that Sehwag is still uncertain for T3, I would be happier

If Sehwag is uncertain, then Jaffer is the right choice, no?

> seeing Ganguly as the backup rather than either of Gambhir and Kaif.
> Moreover, even if Sehwag is fully fit, it is Gambhir and Kaif who need
> a prolonged run in FC cricket, not Ganguly, who played and did well in
> the last 6 months

This I agree that Gambhir and Kaif need to play more FC than Ganguly.
But here I go again, I would rather see Kaif as the 12th man than Ganguly.

Alternatively, they could have dropped all 3 and got one of the younger
guys in contention tobe the 12th man.

>
> > You said in another post that "the dropping of a former captain is a
> > very, very sensitive issue, and needs great care. Let alone one of the
> > most successful captains India has ever had"
> > So obviously having him in the squad but to not include him in the
> > playing XI would be even more sensitive. This way is better, than to see
> > him bring in a change of gloves for Dhoni.
>
> This is a good point, but if the egos are smoothed, and if Ganguly is
> told the cold facts: he is thought to be worse currently than Yuvraj
> but better than Kaif/Gambhir, and the best squad hence leaves him as
> 12th man, then I think there is no harm. Taking great care means
> picking your best squad, and yet not alienating anyone.

Maybe it was done and Ganguly preferred to be left out than be the
12th man...


>
> > > If Yuvraj fails tomorrow, who is next in line to replace him? The man
> > > who already made the test XIV, or the man who didn't? If Kaif replaces
> > > Yuvraj, Ganguly will wonder, "what wrong did I do?", and if Ganguly
> > > replaces Yuvraj, Kaif will wonder the same.
> > It is clearly Ganguly. No one has to wonder. The squad has adequate
> > backups and Kaif owes his spot to him being a better fielder than
> > Ganguly
>
> Except that with Sehwag ill, there is a chance Kaif will play.

Why would you replace Sehwag with Kaif? Jaffer as an opener
makes more sense, right?

>
> Also, let's take the issue of the team selection for Pakistan. Dravid,
> SRT, Sehwag, Laxman, and Yuvraj are sure. We also need 3 openers, so
> Jaffer and Gambhir will probably both go. (Or Gambhir will be replaced
> by Jadhav or some other opener.) Which will leave one slot: Ganguly or
> Kaif? Better 12th man or better batsman?

Like I said earlier for a longer full fledged tour outside the country a
better
batsman should and will be selected. But for a single test at home it does
not
really matter.

>
> And if Kaif is dropped, he has a right to complain. He was picked in
> the Indian squad, thus deprived of FC games. Then, when it came to
> picking the best team for Pakistan, he was dropped...

He has got that right to complain...
However as history shows us he has never really troubled the FC scorers.
It has been his "exploits" in the ODI that has got him into the tests.

>
> And if Ganguly is dropped, of course, he also will complain... After a
> good show at FC level and in the tests that he got, Kaif was picked in
> his place...

I don't see this happening...
But if does than I would also join in the complaints.


> > Unless of course he goes back to the domestics and scores heavily:-) and
> > goes ahead of the other 3.
>
> How will he go back to domestics if you keep picking him for tests on
> the basis of his 12th man ability? How many Ranji games has he played
> for UP this season?

Has he really scored well in the domestics to force his way into the
test squad? I guess you missed the smiley after "scores heavily".

Of course I have another theory.
Maybe GC/RD will play both Jaffer and Gambhir in the 3rd test and have
Sehwag play in the MO. The better performer is taken to Pakistan to open
with Sehwag.


R. Bharat Rao

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Dec 14, 2005, 7:45:32 PM12/14/05
to

"Southpaw" <arb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134598227.7...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> Considering that Sehwag is still uncertain for T3, I would be happier
> seeing Ganguly as the backup rather than either of Gambhir and Kaif.
> Moreover, even if Sehwag is fully fit, it is Gambhir and Kaif who need
> a prolonged run in FC cricket, not Ganguly, who played and did well in
> the last 6 months.

Wait if Sehwag is not fit, Ganguly won't open. So he is NOT a backup
to Sehwag...

>
>> You said in another post that "the dropping of a former captain is a
>> very, very sensitive issue, and needs great care. Let alone one of the
>> most successful captains India has ever had"
>> So obviously having him in the squad but to not include him in the
>> playing XI would be even more sensitive. This way is better, than to see
>> him bring in a change of gloves for Dhoni.

Bingo...

> This is a good point, but if the egos are smoothed, and if Ganguly is
> told the cold facts: he is thought to be worse currently than Yuvraj
> but better than Kaif/Gambhir, and the best squad hence leaves him as
> 12th man, then I think there is no harm. Taking great care means
> picking your best squad, and yet not alienating anyone.

I doubt it -- this is the man who blew his top when he asked Chappell
for his honest opinion and got it. I doubt that he would take kindly to
being 12th man, and would see it as a huge insult... (and would likely
more around the squad).


>
>> > If Yuvraj fails tomorrow, who is next in line to replace him? The man
>> > who already made the test XIV, or the man who didn't? If Kaif replaces
>> > Yuvraj, Ganguly will wonder, "what wrong did I do?", and if Ganguly
>> > replaces Yuvraj, Kaif will wonder the same.
>> It is clearly Ganguly. No one has to wonder. The squad has adequate
>> backups and Kaif owes his spot to him being a better fielder than
>> Ganguly
>
> Except that with Sehwag ill, there is a chance Kaif will play.

No then they should play Gambhir and Jaffer. Kaif will only play
if ONE of the middle order pulls up lame between now and T3.

>
> Also, let's take the issue of the team selection for Pakistan. Dravid,
> SRT, Sehwag, Laxman, and Yuvraj are sure. We also need 3 openers, so
> Jaffer and Gambhir will probably both go. (Or Gambhir will be replaced
> by Jadhav or some other opener.) Which will leave one slot: Ganguly or
> Kaif? Better 12th man or better batsman?
>
> And if Kaif is dropped, he has a right to complain. He was picked in
> the Indian squad, thus deprived of FC games. Then, when it came to
> picking the best team for Pakistan, he was dropped...
>
> And if Ganguly is dropped, of course, he also will complain... After a
> good show at FC level and in the tests that he got, Kaif was picked in
> his place...

Yup -- we have only one reserve middle-order slot open, and it comes
down to Ganguly vs. Kaif. I think it should be Ganguly, but Kaif too
didn't do anything bad after his (relative) successes against Australia,
other than getting injured -- and remember he outplayed both Yuvraj
and Ganguly in that series...

Bharat


Gafoor

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Dec 14, 2005, 9:17:51 PM12/14/05
to
Southpaw wrote:
> VJ wrote:
>> How about Harbhajan as opener (I mean, why not?). For once it seems
>> like the team selection has some method to it. We need solid openers
>> in Pakistan and the slot in the MO now is deserved by Yuvraj. Would
>> people be happy if Ganguly was in the squad but not in the XI? That
>> would have
>
> Personally, I wouldn't care. The best squad should be chosen. The
> selectors can make it clear that Ganguly is being chosen in the XIV
> because he is among the top 5 middle-order bats in the country,

It's pretty obvious that the coach & captain don't want Ganguly in
the 11. If he is chosen in the the 13 or 15, then they will be bad guys
who dropped him from the 11. Hence they have got the selectors
to do this job for them.

Message has been deleted

Reverse Swing

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Dec 14, 2005, 10:27:55 PM12/14/05
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"Gafoor" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:40c22iF...@individual.net...

> Southpaw wrote:
>> VJ wrote:
>>> How about Harbhajan as opener (I mean, why not?). For once it seems
>>> like the team selection has some method to it. We need solid openers
>>> in Pakistan and the slot in the MO now is deserved by Yuvraj. Would
>>> people be happy if Ganguly was in the squad but not in the XI? That
>>> would have
>>
>> Personally, I wouldn't care. The best squad should be chosen. The
>> selectors can make it clear that Ganguly is being chosen in the XIV
>> because he is among the top 5 middle-order bats in the country,
>
> It's pretty obvious that the coach & captain don't want Ganguly in
> the 11.

Coach is obvious but how is it obvious that the captain doesn't want Ganguly
in the XI? As per the leaked press reports on the selection committee
meeting for T1 (the previous selection committee that included the two
Sharmas and Roy), the coach was dead against having Sourav in the squad and
the captain was neutral, i.e. did not express an opinion.

Or do you have any other source?

SP

<snip>


Gafoor

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Dec 14, 2005, 10:30:01 PM12/14/05
to

If it's just the coach, then it means that the captain is just a puppet
captain.


Paji

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 10:41:27 PM12/14/05
to

Gafoor wrote:
> It's pretty obvious that the coach & captain don't want Ganguly in
> the 11. If he is chosen in the the 13 or 15, then they will be bad guys
> who dropped him from the 11. Hence they have got the selectors
> to do this job for them.

This is amazing. I thought whoever dropped Ganguly will be hailed as
heros
of Indian cricket. Only rabid Ganguly fans with no Indian cricket
at heart will think they are bad guys.

It is not about Ganguly or what is fair to him - it is about what
is good for Indian cricket. It is not fair to anyone personally to get
dropped. but if you want to take care of team interest, you got to make
the right calls
which may seem harsh or unfair to a few individuals.

Gafoor

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 10:47:18 PM12/14/05
to

There are people in the 15 who have no business to be there ahead
of Ganguly. It's OK to drop him from the playing 11, but he has
to be there in the 15 as long as there are people like Kaif in the 15.


Aditya Basrur

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Dec 14, 2005, 10:47:58 PM12/14/05
to

Gafoor wrote:

> If it's just the coach, then it means that the captain is just a puppet
> captain.

Like Tendulkar, then? Oh well - at least he has some acumen on the
field.

Aditya

Loony Tunes

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 10:53:14 PM12/14/05
to

Gafoor wrote:
>
> There are people in the 15 who have no business to be there ahead
> of Ganguly. It's OK to drop him from the playing 11, but he has
> to be there in the 15 as long as there are people like Kaif in the 15.

I cannot agree more. I simply dont see how Kaif qualifies for the test
team. Probably it is based on Sadiq's theory, "He looks good... so he
is in..."

yeskay

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 10:27:07 PM12/14/05
to

Something similar to circa-99 when SRT/KD didn't want the ex-cap
Azhar anywhere near the team.

Gafoor

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 10:59:38 PM12/14/05
to

Kapil wanted Jadeja in the squad, IIRC - atleast for the ODI squad.
And the selectors offered Azhar & Jadeja as a package, and Kapil
was ready for this compromise. SRT was the only one totally against
Azhar & Jadeja, I think.

But your point holds - just like nobody knew the reasons for the team
management not wanting Azhar, there maybe a possibility, that there are
some reasons why the current team management not wanting Ganguly
in the squad.

Reverse Swing

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:03:14 PM12/14/05
to
[Not able to download your post, so replying via Boresur's]

> Gafoor wrote:
>
>> If it's just the coach, then it means that the captain is just a puppet
>> captain.

How? Both the coach and the captain don't have a vote in the selection
meeting. The coach expresses an opinion on a certain player and the captain
doesn't. What's the big deal? Perhaps he's fine either ways?

Anyway, being the puppet wasn't the point. You clubbed the two of them
together, but based on available 'evidence', there is no reason to believe
that the captain didn't want Sourav in the playing XI.

SP

<snip>


Gafoor

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:16:29 PM12/14/05
to

Based on the available evidence, there is no reason to believe that
the coach didn't want SCG in the playing XI. Chappell made some
statements about how SCG would be a mentor for the younger
players, about how there is no bad feelings between them, etc.

Dravid & GC are clubbed together because they form the
team management.

Paji

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:17:08 PM12/14/05
to

Gafoor wrote:
> There are people in the 15 who have no business to be there ahead
> of Ganguly. It's OK to drop him from the playing 11, but he has
> to be there in the 15 as long as there are people like Kaif in the 15.

I'm no big Kaif fan.

Unless you give chances to a promising youngster, we will never know
how good he will ever be. If you forget his FC stats, and just look
at the way he plays and his ODI record, Kaif is not a bad choice.
He got into the national side based on U19 performance and not FC
He was one of the best available in the country right from his
U19 days - he was the captain of the side.
.
His FC record has always been patchy, - but does not mean he
is no Test class. He never got to play consistent FC cricket
due to regular call up to the national side.
He deserves his chances ahead of veterans of dubious quality.
Looks like the majority of the selectors, coach and the captain
agree - if it is good enough for them, what's the problem?
I don't think he is in the side for non-cricketing reasons.

Reverse Swing

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:26:53 PM12/14/05
to
"Gafoor" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:40c910F...@individual.net...

Fine. Perhaps Chappell is a blooming idiot who changes his mind every day:
one day he wanted Sourav out, the next he calls me a mentor. Still, there
is no reason to believe Dravid didn't want Sourav in the team.

> Dravid & GC are clubbed together because they form the
> team management.

In your original post, you said the coach and the captain, not "team
management."

SP


dp

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:29:27 PM12/14/05
to
aditya...@gmail.com wrote:
> Gafoor wrote:
<snip>

> > It's pretty obvious that the coach & captain don't want Ganguly in
> > the 11. If he is chosen in the the 13 or 15, then they will be bad guys
> > who dropped him from the 11. Hence they have got the selectors
> > to do this job for them.

Don't the selectors choose the final XI for home matches? I thought it
is only on tours that the team management picks the XI. In that case,
this argument that "selectors dropped Ganguly from the squad because
they didn't want it to look like coach and captain dropped him" doesn't
hold either.

> I think it's more the coach than the captain. I don't think Dravid's
> especially vindictive.

Knowing him, I don't think so either. But being silent and not fighting
for his long time friend and captain to get what is due to him is only
marginally better than being vindictive.

So, the question now is, will 6 straight losses against Pak and England
be enough to get rid of this coach-captain combination?

dp [Go Akhtar, Go Flintoff!]

Gafoor

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:31:06 PM12/14/05
to
Reverse Swing wrote:
> "Gafoor" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:40c910F...@individual.net...
>> Reverse Swing wrote:
>>> [Not able to download your post, so replying via Boresur's]
>>>
>>>> Gafoor wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If it's just the coach, then it means that the captain is just a
>>>>> puppet captain.
>>>
>>> How? Both the coach and the captain don't have a vote in the
>>> selection meeting. The coach expresses an opinion on a certain
>>> player and the captain doesn't. What's the big deal? Perhaps he's
>>> fine either ways?
>>> Anyway, being the puppet wasn't the point. You clubbed the two of
>>> them together, but based on available 'evidence', there is no reason
>>> to believe that the captain didn't want Sourav in the playing XI.
>>
>> Based on the available evidence, there is no reason to believe that
>> the coach didn't want SCG in the playing XI. Chappell made some
>> statements about how SCG would be a mentor for the younger
>> players, about how there is no bad feelings between them, etc.
>
> Fine. Perhaps Chappell is a blooming idiot who changes his mind
> every day: one day he wanted Sourav out, the next he calls me a
> mentor.

Then perhaps you should try & get into the team & mentor a few
people.

> Still, there is no reason to believe Dravid didn't want
> Sourav in the team.
>> Dravid & GC are clubbed together because they form the
>> team management.
>
> In your original post, you said the coach and the captain, not "team
> management."

Yes. Coach & Captain == team management.


Gafoor

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:36:33 PM12/14/05
to
dp wrote:
> aditya...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Gafoor wrote:
> <snip>
>>> It's pretty obvious that the coach & captain don't want Ganguly in
>>> the 11. If he is chosen in the the 13 or 15, then they will be bad
>>> guys who dropped him from the 11. Hence they have got the selectors
>>> to do this job for them.
>
> Don't the selectors choose the final XI for home matches? I thought it
> is only on tours that the team management picks the XI. In that case,
> this argument that "selectors dropped Ganguly from the squad because
> they didn't want it to look like coach and captain dropped him"
> doesn't hold either.

Most of the fans don't know this. If he is dropped on the morning
of the test, it will look like the captain & coach had some hand in
it. It's easier to drop him well in advance & get the issue in open
before the match starts.

>> I think it's more the coach than the captain. I don't think Dravid's
>> especially vindictive.
>
> Knowing him, I don't think so either. But being silent and not
> fighting for his long time friend and captain to get what is due to
> him is only marginally better than being vindictive.
>
> So, the question now is, will 6 straight losses against Pak and
> England be enough to get rid of this coach-captain combination?

Don't think we will lose 6 straight matches. I don't think we will lose
more than 1 match each against Pak & England.

Reverse Swing

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:38:14 PM12/14/05
to
"Gafoor" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:40c9sdF...@individual.net...

LOL. It's alright - we all tend to make assertions without any basis
sometime or the other. We all have our prejudices. Nobody died.

SP


Andrew Dunford

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:43:45 PM12/14/05
to

"Gafoor" <rro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:40ca6kF...@individual.net...

<snip>

> Don't think we will lose 6 straight matches. I don't think we will lose
> more than 1 match each against Pak & England.

Noted for future reference.

Andrew

dp

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:52:09 PM12/14/05
to
Gafoor wrote:

> Don't think we will lose 6 straight matches.

Yeah, I don't think so either. But if that's what it takes to get
Chappell sacked, I for one will be hoping it happens. It's not going to
be easy, mind you. Rooting for Pak is ok, they are usually my second
favourite team anyway, but England for some reason has always been my
least favourite team by some distance. But this time, I will be rooting
for even them...

dp

Tweedle Dee

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:54:05 PM12/14/05
to

Gafoor wrote:

> But your point holds - just like nobody knew the reasons for the team
> management not wanting Azhar, there maybe a possibility, that there are
> some reasons why the current team management not wanting Ganguly
> in the squad.

I am trying to think of the possibilities regarding Dravid-Chappell
vis-a-vis Ganguly. (a) Dravid may a Machiavellian manipulator who wants
to screw Ganguly while praising him and appearing to be a super-nice
guy in public. Somehow I doubt that - from what we have seen of Dravid,
he doesn't see this type (that sweet-on-ball incident notwithstanding).
Or (b) Dravid may be one meek character who doesn't have the balls to
stand up for a long-time friend and team-mate. Perhaps. After all, he
does gain by taking this route - no hindrances or baggage from having
an ex-skipper known to have a strong personality, plus better relations
with the coach, another strong character. Or (c) Dravid may genuinely
have been convinced by Chappell and More and Co. that Ganguly doesn't
fit into the scheme of things and investing in Yuvraj is the way to the
future, and Dravid being a team-man who probably wants the best for his
team may have bought into this. Or it may be none of the above. Maybe
(d) Dravid and Chappell are privy to information that we are unaware of
- maybe Ganguly did some underhand stuff that only they know about,
which is what you are suggesting above as a possibility. I somehow
doubt that as well. I think I'll go with some combination of (b) and
(c). Seems most likely to me. Being a Dravid fan, I like (c) most of
all, and for my own peace of mind, I'll take that to be the case.

--TD

Aditya Basrur

unread,
Dec 14, 2005, 11:58:16 PM12/14/05
to

dp wrote:
> aditya...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Gafoor wrote:
> <snip>
> > > It's pretty obvious that the coach & captain don't want Ganguly in
> > > the 11. If he is chosen in the the 13 or 15, then they will be bad guys
> > > who dropped him from the 11. Hence they have got the selectors
> > > to do this job for them.
>
> Don't the selectors choose the final XI for home matches? I thought it
> is only on tours that the team management picks the XI. In that case,
> this argument that "selectors dropped Ganguly from the squad because
> they didn't want it to look like coach and captain dropped him" doesn't
> hold either.

You really think that Chappell had nothing to do with it? At the least,
the email thing had something to do with it. I'm sure the malicious
slimeball has been more vociferous since then.

> > I think it's more the coach than the captain. I don't think Dravid's
> > especially vindictive.
>
> Knowing him, I don't think so either. But being silent and not fighting
> for his long time friend and captain to get what is due to him is only
> marginally better than being vindictive.

Dravid needs to protect his position. While Dravid's not vindictive,
Chappell certainly is. He's a slimy, arrogant SOB, and if Dravid
crosses him, he'll pay. (He might even make Laxman captain, since VVSL
and Gangs seem to have had a falling out.) Dravid could go the same way
as Ganguly if he doesn't listen to Middle Brother, and I'm sure he
knows it.

> So, the question now is, will 6 straight losses against Pak and England
> be enough to get rid of this coach-captain combination?

I don't mind keeping Dravid there. I just don't think Chappell has
India's best interests at heart. Sure, on merit, it's marginal - but
surely past record and performance has something to do with it?

It's all been stage-managed. It reeks of not selecting Goel when Bedi
was injured in case he made a case for inclusion. This way, that
pillock Chappell can make it seem as though Ganguly hasn't done enough.

> dp [Go Akhtar, Go Flintoff!]

I don't want India to fail, but I do want to see Ganguly back. He
deserves more than this. And if hacks like Kaif are preferred to
Ganguly, they may well fail.

Aditya [ Ganguly - the David Gower of Indian Cricket. ] Basrur

P.S. Interesting to see people with some record of supporting India are
pissed about this. Only Cricket illiterates would compare him with
match-fixers like Azhar.

Aditya Basrur

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 12:00:41 AM12/15/05
to

Especially when Dravid is concerned, it's very easy for Gafool to be
prejudiced.

Aditya

yeskay

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 12:02:13 AM12/15/05
to
dp wrote:

Why a professional coach should be good for club India right?
Unless you are jingoistic about foreign coaches :)

Aditya Basrur

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 12:05:44 AM12/15/05
to

yeskay wrote:

> Why a professional coach should be good for club India right?
> Unless you are jingoistic about foreign coaches :)

Just because you're a professional coach, it doesn't mean you're that
good.

Aditya [ Anyone know Chappell's coaching credentials before India? ]
Basrur

Andrew Dunford

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 12:09:14 AM12/15/05
to

"Tweedle Dee" <kva...@ku.edu> wrote in message
news:1134622445....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> Maybe
> (d) Dravid and Chappell are privy to information that we are unaware of
> - maybe Ganguly did some underhand stuff that only they know about

Not possible: we know everything.

<snip>

Andrew


dp

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 12:12:39 AM12/15/05
to
yeskay wrote:
> Why a professional coach should be good for club India right?
> Unless you are jingoistic about foreign coaches :)

[second attempt, google ate the first]

Oh nothing to do with his foreign origin. I liked John Wright a lot.
Yes, a professional coach would be good, but that's the point. In his
brief stint so far, he has been anything but professional.

dp

yeskay

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 12:32:25 AM12/15/05
to

If you ignore the Ganguly fiasco:

- Indian fielding seems to have improved
- Fitness of players have improved (Balaji withstanding)
- ODI performance has improved a lot with all the experimentation

I don;t see how he is doing worse than Wright professionally except
for the Ganguly drama.

dp

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 1:02:49 AM12/15/05
to
yeskay wrote:
> Why a professional coach should be good for club India right?
> Unless you are jingoistic about foreign coaches :)

Oh absolutely nothing to do with his foreign origin. I liked John


Wright a lot. Yes, a professional coach would be good, but that's the

point. In his stint so far, he has been anything but professional.

dp

dp

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 1:16:45 AM12/15/05
to
yeskay wrote:
> > Oh nothing to do with his foreign origin. I liked John Wright a lot.
> > Yes, a professional coach would be good, but that's the point. In his
> > brief stint so far, he has been anything but professional.
>
> If you ignore the Ganguly fiasco:
>
> - Indian fielding seems to have improved
> - Fitness of players have improved (Balaji withstanding)
> - ODI performance has improved a lot with all the experimentation
>
> I don;t see how he is doing worse than Wright professionally except
> for the Ganguly drama.

And Ganguly drama has been the dominant theme of his stint anyway, not
sure why we should ignore it. Apart from that, selecting Agarkar over
Zaheer for tests? After Zaheer's performance in Duleeps? Main point is,
he seems to be meddling in things he shouldn't be meddling in. That is
enough reason to sack him, no matter how good he is as a coach. But I
don't think he is that great tactically either. "Supersub favours the
team winning the toss"? Sure, it is Dravid who said that, but what is
coach doing?

dp

Gafoor

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 1:20:02 AM12/15/05
to
dp wrote:
> yeskay wrote:
>>> Oh nothing to do with his foreign origin. I liked John Wright a lot.
>>> Yes, a professional coach would be good, but that's the point. In
>>> his brief stint so far, he has been anything but professional.
>>
>> If you ignore the Ganguly fiasco:
>>
>> - Indian fielding seems to have improved
>> - Fitness of players have improved (Balaji withstanding)
>> - ODI performance has improved a lot with all the experimentation
>>
>> I don;t see how he is doing worse than Wright professionally except
>> for the Ganguly drama.
>
> And Ganguly drama has been the dominant theme of his stint anyway, not
> sure why we should ignore it. Apart from that, selecting Agarkar over
> Zaheer for tests?

How do you know GC was responsible? It may be Dravid also?
I think ZK will be back - maybe for the Pak tour, or atleast
for the Eng series.

> After Zaheer's performance in Duleeps? Main point
> is, he seems to be meddling in things he shouldn't be meddling in.
> That is enough reason to sack him, no matter how good he is as a
> coach. But I don't think he is that great tactically either.
> "Supersub favours the team winning the toss"? Sure, it is Dravid who
> said that, but what is coach doing?

Coach is there for coaching skills, not for these things.

amukhop

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 1:27:48 AM12/15/05
to

I'd say this comes under "team management".

dp

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 1:31:41 AM12/15/05
to
Gafoor wrote:
> > And Ganguly drama has been the dominant theme of his stint anyway, not
> > sure why we should ignore it. Apart from that, selecting Agarkar over
> > Zaheer for tests?
>
> How do you know GC was responsible? It may be Dravid also?

I don't know, but my hunch is it was Chappell. Zaheer is not known for
his hard work and apparently Chappell likes those who put in lot of
hard work.

> > "Supersub favours the team winning the toss"? Sure, it is Dravid who
> > said that, but what is coach doing?
>
> Coach is there for coaching skills, not for these things.

As part of team management he decides who should be supersub. If he
doesn't even know how to make best use of it, how does he decide?
Coaching skills include things like strategy and tactics. It is not
just how to hold a bat or how to move your feet.

dp

Gafoor

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 1:42:23 AM12/15/05
to
dp wrote:
> Gafoor wrote:
>>> And Ganguly drama has been the dominant theme of his stint anyway,
>>> not sure why we should ignore it. Apart from that, selecting
>>> Agarkar over Zaheer for tests?
>>
>> How do you know GC was responsible? It may be Dravid also?
>
> I don't know, but my hunch is it was Chappell. Zaheer is not known for
> his hard work and apparently Chappell likes those who put in lot of
> hard work.

Dravid was probably witness to the incident where ZK threatened
John Wright. There is a high possibility that this offended Dravid but
he couldn't do anything then because he wasn't a captain.

Aditya Basrur

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 1:57:46 AM12/15/05
to

Gafoor wrote:
> dp wrote:
> > Gafoor wrote:
> >>> And Ganguly drama has been the dominant theme of his stint anyway,
> >>> not sure why we should ignore it. Apart from that, selecting
> >>> Agarkar over Zaheer for tests?
> >>
> >> How do you know GC was responsible? It may be Dravid also?
> >
> > I don't know, but my hunch is it was Chappell. Zaheer is not known for
> > his hard work and apparently Chappell likes those who put in lot of
> > hard work.
>
> Dravid was probably witness to the incident where ZK threatened
> John Wright. There is a high possibility that this offended Dravid but
> he couldn't do anything then because he wasn't a captain.

Did this happen when Tendulkar was nursing his elbow before his
record-breaking 248* in Bangladesh?

Was the "possibility" low that Tendulkar, unlike Dravid, fully endorsed
what Zaheer did to Wright? Or was the "possibility" high that Tendulkar
was offended like Dravid?

You "probably" meant to say something else.

So be a good little Gafool, and let's have that Kallis post.

Aditya

dp

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 2:00:13 AM12/15/05
to
Gafoor wrote:
>
> Dravid was probably witness to the incident where ZK threatened
> John Wright. There is a high possibility that this offended Dravid but
> he couldn't do anything then because he wasn't a captain.

Obviously Chappell would also know about the incident and there is
higher possibility that Chappell will be offended by it than Dravid to
be offended. After all, Zaheer had tried to assault his coach and that
was over a training issue, so as a coach high on fitness and training,
Chappell won't like that attitude. Besides, Dravid has so far not shown
anything to indicate that he does things based on his likes and
dislikes. A doormat captain who doesn't stand up for his friend is
unlikely to keep someone out of the team based on an incident which
happened many years ago. But Chappell has shown enough indication that
he will go to any extent to keep people he doesn't like out of the
team.

dp

Aditya Basrur

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 2:20:15 AM12/15/05
to

And when you have a manipulative egotistical coach who cares more about
his testicles being lifted than the well-being of the team, any player
who knows what's good for him will be a doormat. He'll continue not to
make hamfisted decisions on the field (unlike Tendulkar when captain),
but he'll fall in line with the dictatorial MF who's running the team.
It's like office politics - if someone's quirky but has power over you,
you fall in line. I don't think we can fault Dravid for that (although
Gafool wants to, because everyone knows SRT was the worst captain ever,
and he hasn't found anything on-field to crib about just yet; it
shouldn't take that long). Once he starts bringing in the entire
Bangalore side on an unwarranted basis (the keeper will be the first
sign, a la Samir Dighe), or makes inexplicable field settings or bowls
strike bowlers into the ground, then we can start comparing him to
Tendulkar's utter ineffectuality.

For the moment, however, Gafool, sit tight. Work on that Kallis post.
And try and make up a better reason to bash Dravid's captaincy. You
idiot.

Aditya

Gafoor

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 2:41:14 AM12/15/05
to

I think we will put both those teams to the sword.

Aditya Basrur

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 2:49:37 AM12/15/05
to

And if we don't put them to the sword, Dravid should be put to the
sword, right?

Standard Sadiq tactic. Get a little less predictable, Gafool. And work
on that Kallis post. Time's running out.

Aditya

Gafoor

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 9:54:19 AM12/15/05
to
Paji wrote:
> Gafoor wrote:
>> There are people in the 15 who have no business to be there ahead
>> of Ganguly. It's OK to drop him from the playing 11, but he has
>> to be there in the 15 as long as there are people like Kaif in the
>> 15.
>
> I'm no big Kaif fan.
>
> Unless you give chances to a promising youngster, we will never know
> how good he will ever be.

There are 2 questions here
1) How do you determine which all youngsters are
promising?
2) Out of all the promising youngsters, who do you
select to give a chance to?

> If you forget his FC stats, and just look
> at the way he plays and his ODI record, Kaif is not a bad choice.

Kaif's ODI record is quite patchy - it's nothing spectacular.

Kaif averages ***5.00*** against Australia in ODI's.
He has made a total of 20 runs against them in 5 innings.

vs Pakistan he has an average of 25.42
vs SL he has an average of 28.55
vs WI he has an average of 30.85

If you exclude the minnows, he averages around 31.
His SR isn't also high enough to afford an average of 31.

> He got into the national side based on U19 performance
> and not FC
> He was one of the best available in the country right from his
> U19 days

He was the best available U-19 possibly which is no big
deal. Why not chose the best U-15?

> - he was the captain of the side.
> .
> His FC record has always been patchy, - but does not mean he
> is no Test class.

What exactly has shown his test class?

> He never got to play consistent FC cricket
> due to regular call up to the national side.

Check records of other chaps who played ODI's with
him for India.

04-05
Kaif 190 runs @ 27.14
Yuvraj 541 runs @ 54.10
Mongia 343 runs @ 24.50

03-04
Kaif 206 runs @ 29.42
Yuvraj 698 runs @ 69.80
Mongia 632 runs @ 52.66

02-03
Kaif 40 runs @ 40.00
Yuvraj 76 runs @ 38.00
Mongia 205 runs @ 51.25

01-02
Kaif 219 runs @ 27.37
Yuvraj 802 runs @ 53.46
Mongia 699 runs @ 77.66

Also why did he fail in his stint with
Derbyshire?

> He deserves his chances ahead of veterans of dubious quality.

Why exactly?

> Looks like the majority of the selectors, coach and the captain
> agree

If that's the criteria, then we shouldn't argue about anyone's
selection or non-selection on RSC, because they are mostly
selected/not selected by the above.

> - if it is good enough for them, what's the problem?
> I don't think he is in the side for non-cricketing reasons.

Well, he isn't there for cricketing reasons.

Cricketwallah

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 10:56:23 AM12/15/05
to

dp wrote:

> > I think it's more the coach than the captain. I don't think Dravid's
> > especially vindictive.
>
> Knowing him, I don't think so either. But being silent and not fighting
> for his long time friend and captain to get what is due to him is only
> marginally better than being vindictive.
>

And why does he have to fight for his friend, if he doesnt believe he's
genuinely
worth a spot, for example? How do we know he doesnt think that?

Personally, I think Dravid is a very honorable man - but I also think
(just my
opinion) that he may not be a great Ganguly-friend per se. He wouldnt
let
that affect his view on his abilities at all - but I do think its quite
likely that
Dravid isnt convinced Ganguly is worth a spot in the XI at the moment.
He
has long been a Yuvraj-fan too, after all, has said some very nice
things
about him in the past.

Note, the first selection meeting before this series began. Three
selectors were
totally convinced Ganguly should be there, the reports said they came
to the
meeting basically with the 1-point agenda to ensure he was in the side.

Chappell put forth his views quite forcefully that he didnt think
Ganguly
merited a spot in the XI - I dont know why we need to impute
vindictiveness
or anything else to this, BTW, he genuinely seems to think Ganugly isnt
worth a spot in the XI on form and ability (and he said so even to
Ganguly
himself when Ganguly was captain, so this isnt a new opinion for him).

OTOH, Dravid by all accounts was completely silent on the Ganguly
point - he did not want push for him, or say he shouldnt be in the
side.
Not a bad thing for a captain to be, really.

That original selection meeting lasted what, 4-and-a-half hours? There
was
plenty of debate, lots of suggestions made. One selector apparently
suggested
that VVSL be left out (which would clearly leave room for Ganugly to be
accomodated). At this point, the reports claimed that Dravid objected
very
vociferously, saying he would not accept a squad without VVSL in it.

(The last point of debate was apparently the Agarkar selection, with a
selector
objecting to it - and reports said that both captain and coach said
they wanted
him in, that he was bowling very well at the moment etc. Not
particularly
surprising, since both have been publicly quite positive in comments
about him in the past).

Now, what does the above tell you? To me personally, if one believes
the reports (and there were several of them, so I mostly do), it tells
me
that Dravid was very very convinced about VVSL being worth a spot
in the side, he fought for him personally. And IMHO he was right
on the spot on this too, if VVSL had been dropped it would have
been a travesty - but there were several reports in newspapers before
the selection meeting that he might be, this wasnt a brand new idea.

OTOH, Dravid didnt criticize Ganguly or demand his dropping... but
according to reports he didnt fight for him either. Why does this
have to be vindictiveness or weakness? Maybe he doesnt want
to decide one way or another about a longtime comrade - but
maybe he isnt as convinced about Ganguly today as he is
about some others (ref VVSL).

Before this series began, there were many who felt that Ganguly
would not get picked at all. In fact, Bharat, Samarth and me had
this discussion before the first test - and nobody was *sure*
Ganguly would be picked. I personally thought Ganguly would
be picked for sure, but would be given a short rope - maybe 2
tests is what I said, maybe only 1. After all, remember, all 3
of the selectors who supported Ganguly are not on the committee
anymore. He would need to really establish himself again in
that short period, I felt. Samarth IIRC felt that they might pick
Yuvraj over Ganguly for the first test itself, given his MOS
performance
in the ODIs.

Ganguly *was* given 2 tests, though one was truncated - he got 3
innings. In the end he didnt reach fifty in any of the 3 innings, so he
didnt conclusively re-establish himself in some ways. After Yuvraj's
performance in the 2nd innings at the Kotla, I think there was little
doubt left that he would be in the middle-order ahead of Ganguly
for the last test, if it came to a choice between the two of them.
The contest between them is close, and when it comes to that
they will surely always go with a guy who is so much younger.
And Yuvraj batted *very* well in the second innings - is it fair to
drop
him? I dont think this means vindictiveness from Chappell, or weakness
from Dravid, or anything else from anyone else - I think that is really
not an unreasonable cricketing decision, as Mike said not much
different from Thorpe vs Bell-and-Pietersen before the Ashes series.
There are arguments one can make on both sides, but one can
come down on the Yuvraj side without neccesarily hating Ganguly
IMHO.

Beyond that - frankly, I would have Ganguly in the 14 myself,
easily over Kaif. However this is India - we dont usually make
captain's be 12th men, ferrying water and change of gloves etc.
In a perfectly professional world I think we would, we'd just pick the
best 14 as Samarth suggested, and be done with it. But I felt this
before the first test and said so then too - they arent going to pick
Ganguly in the 14 and then make him 12th man, and they arent going
to pick him in the 14 if they arent going to put him in the final XI.
It isnt done, in their minds.

I would still pick Ganguly for the series in Pakistan however - a tour
is
a different matter in that sense. The first indication I got from the
selectors comments yesterday was that they were thinking along
similar lines - which is what I wrote yesterday on here. Now, after
seeing the public reaction, I wonder - all the writers seem to be
claiming
its the end of Ganguly, one wonders if theyve gotten more of an
inside view if they write things like that. If they dont pick Ganguly
for the Pakistan tour *then* IMHO it would be most unfair - but at the
moment, if this selection is a one-off, I really dont think its that
bad a
piece of selection. Certainly not one smacking of Chappel's
vindictiveness
or Dravid's weakness, or anything of the sort.


> So, the question now is, will 6 straight losses against Pak and England
> be enough to get rid of this coach-captain combination?
>

> dp [Go Akhtar, Go Flintoff!]

So if we get rid of this coach-captain combination, who replaces them?
Coach, might be anybody. But surely Ganguly isnt coming back as
captain no matter what, right? So who do you want as the next captain?
Sehwag? Or should we just bring Kaif in to be captain? :-)


Sadiq [ combination has done fine so far, really ] Yusuf

amukhop

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Dec 15, 2005, 11:07:40 AM12/15/05
to

Cricketwallah wrote:

<snip>

> And Yuvraj batted *very* well in the second innings

Did you watch this?

<snip>

Cricketwallah

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Dec 15, 2005, 11:09:40 AM12/15/05
to

Reverse Swing wrote:
> >
> >> If it's just the coach, then it means that the captain is just a puppet
> >> captain.
>
> How? Both the coach and the captain don't have a vote in the selection
> meeting. The coach expresses an opinion on a certain player and the captain
> doesn't. What's the big deal? Perhaps he's fine either ways?
>

OTOH, those same reports also suggested that the captain was
vociferous in his insistance that VVSL could not be dropped, no?
A couple of reports actually suggested that he said he would not
accept a team without VVSL in it. (In which he was completely
correct, there is no way VVSL should have been dropped from
the test side, the ODI side is completely different). When he
is so strong in his opinions about defending one player, but
stays completely neutral about another - doesnt that indicate
what his opinion is, in some ways? At least, it indicates that he
thinks VVSL is absolutely vital to the side in his view, but he
is sort of ok whichever of Ganguly or Yuvraj gets picked?
(And, BTW, I think he is absolutely correct on this one too -
VVSL should clearly be the #3 middle-order choice out of 4 spots
in this side; the 4th spot is between Ganguly and Yuvraj, and it is
much much closer, with good arguments to be made on each side.
It is entirely possible that GC/RD believe Yuvraj should be in the
XI ahead of Ganguly on merit today - and it is not an outlandish
viewpoint at all, certaintly not one that should lead to allegations
of bias, vindictiveness, or weakness, IMHO).


Sadiq [ its not that shocking a cricketing decision, surely? ] Yusuf


> Anyway, being the puppet wasn't the point. You clubbed the two of them
> together, but based on available 'evidence', there is no reason to believe
> that the captain didn't want Sourav in the playing XI.
>

> SP
>
> <snip>

yeskay

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Dec 15, 2005, 11:08:48 AM12/15/05
to
dp wrote:

I am not convinced as to what's Chappell's motive in getting rid of Ganguly.
What does he gain by being vindictive?
May be he thinks it will serve the Indian team well.

Mike Holmans

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 12:45:57 PM12/15/05
to
On 15 Dec 2005 07:56:23 -0800, "Cricketwallah"
<cricke...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I dont think this means vindictiveness from Chappell, or weakness
>from Dravid, or anything else from anyone else - I think that is really
>not an unreasonable cricketing decision, as Mike said not much
>different from Thorpe vs Bell-and-Pietersen before the Ashes series.
>There are arguments one can make on both sides, but one can
>come down on the Yuvraj side without neccesarily hating Ganguly
>IMHO.

Exactly. It's not as though it's deciding which of Tendulkar or Kaif
to pick.

But the furore, such as it is, is copious evidence that it was the
right decision. Had Ganguly remained in the team, the soap opera would
have continued until the selectors finally bit the bullet and gave him
the heave-ho. Which is why I'm a bit surprised people still want to
take him to Pakistan so that the team can be permanently distracted by
press hounds and others anxious to dig up the latest in the ongoing
Ganguly saga.

Whether or not Ganguly is now the ideal team man rather than a
disruptive influence in the actual dressing room is now almost neither
here nor there. The fact of his being in the squad has the reptiles
slathering for their next helping of column inches, so he's now
disruptive simply by having been picked. The quicker he's effectively
wiped off the radar, the better for the stability of the team.

Cheers,

Mike

dp

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Dec 15, 2005, 12:46:59 PM12/15/05
to
Cricketwallah wrote:
> Personally, I think Dravid is a very honorable man - but I also think

I don't doubt that for a moment.

<snip selection meeting where Dravid spoke up in support of Laxman and
Agarkar>

> Now, what does the above tell you?

hmm. let's see. Laxman was competing with Ganguly, Chappell wanted
Laxman in and Ganguly out and Dravid spoke up in support of Laxman.
Agarkar was competing with Zaheer, Chappell wanted Agarkar in and
Zaheer out and Dravid spoke up in support of Agarkar. hmm good to see
such great understanding between the coach and captain.

> Beyond that - frankly, I would have Ganguly in the 14 myself,
> easily over Kaif. However this is India - we dont usually make
> captain's be 12th men, ferrying water and change of gloves etc.
> In a perfectly professional world I think we would, we'd just pick the
> best 14 as Samarth suggested, and be done with it.

Yes, but in India we don't drop our senior players like that either. In
the middle of a series, after he has played couple of decent knocks and
after we have won a test, just because a youngster did marginally
better. It takes much more than doing marginally better for a youngster
to replace an established player. If we were to drop our senior players
like that, Kapil would have been dropped many times over during his
career. So, you can't on the one hand use "India" excuse for justifying
Ganguly being out of the squad and use merit/professionalism argument
for Yuvraj to be preferred over Ganguly. If you want to do it the
Indian way, then persist with Ganguly till he has had a long run of bad
scores and it is obvious he is much worse than the competition (like it
was done with Kapil :-). Or if you want to do it the professional way,
then play Yuvraj in the XI, but pick Ganguly in the squad because he is
still better than Kaif. But they have done neither.

> So if we get rid of this coach-captain combination, who replaces them?
> Coach, might be anybody. But surely Ganguly isnt coming back as
> captain no matter what, right? So who do you want as the next captain?
> Sehwag? Or should we just bring Kaif in to be captain? :-)

hmm. maybe you are right. There is no alternative, I guess. But atleast
if Chappell goes I will be more than happy.

dp

dp

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 12:54:22 PM12/15/05
to
Mike Holmans wrote:
> But the furore, such as it is, is copious evidence that it was the
> right decision. Had Ganguly remained in the team, the soap opera would
> have continued until the selectors finally bit the bullet and gave him
> the heave-ho.

Ganguly played last two tests and there was no soap opera at any time
during those tests. Indian even won the last test by a huge margin.

dp

dp

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Dec 15, 2005, 12:58:36 PM12/15/05
to
Cricketwallah wrote:
<snip>

> inside view if they write things like that. If they dont pick Ganguly
> for the Pakistan tour *then* IMHO it would be most unfair - but at the
> moment, if this selection is a one-off, I really dont think its that
> bad a
> piece of selection. Certainly not one smacking of Chappel's
> vindictiveness
> or Dravid's weakness, or anything of the sort.

well, let me say this: atleast this Ganguly decision is not as bad as
Chappell's other decision - picking Agarkar over Zaheer for a test
series!

dp

Gafoor

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Dec 15, 2005, 1:01:28 PM12/15/05
to
dp wrote:
> hmm. let's see. Laxman was competing with Ganguly, Chappell wanted
> Laxman in and Ganguly out and Dravid spoke up in support of Laxman.
> Agarkar was competing with Zaheer, Chappell wanted Agarkar in and
> Zaheer out and Dravid spoke up in support of Agarkar. hmm good to see
> such great understanding between the coach and captain.

Chappel wanting Zaheer out is pure conjecture.
It could be either GC or RD or both. I haven't seen any
comment from either of them about ZK till date.

dp

unread,
Dec 15, 2005, 1:13:53 PM12/15/05
to
dp wrote:
<snip>

> was done with Kapil :-). Or if you want to do it the professional way,
> then play Yuvraj in the XI, but pick Ganguly in the squad because he is
> still better than Kaif. But they have done neither.

btw, this is what the previous selection committee and previous team
management (Ganguly/Wright) did with respect to Kumble. They felt that
Harbhajan was a better choice than Kumble at many points, so they
picked Harbhajan in the XI, but they still kept Kumble in the squad.
They didn't say, "oh, Kumble is a senior player and we can't have him
in the squad and not play, so let's kick him out of the squad". No,
they did it in a perfectly professional manner. If they had dropped
Kumble altogether from the squad when they first felt he was no longer
an automatic choice in the XI (which was what, during the Windies tour
of '02?), Kumble would have missed out on probably his best period as a
test cricketer.

dp

Cricketwallah

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Dec 15, 2005, 1:14:46 PM12/15/05
to

I agree. I dont think there is any soap opera on teh field at all - I
think
all the players are far more professional than that, and India is lucky
in having the 3 seniors it does (and has been so the last few years).
Dravid never campaigned for captaincy as he could have over the
years, nor did Tendulkar - and IMHO Dravid accepted Ganguly just
fine when he came into the side the last 2 tests. Ganguly accepted it
just fine as well.

There is quite clearly a soap opera on the outside - the newspapers,
the TV shows, etc. However, I really dont like the idea of those kinds
of things affecting selection. IMHO it should be decided on the field,
not elsewhere - and based on on-field performances I think Ganguly
could go to Pakistan as the first-backup without any trouble. I dont
think he'd cause any trouble either, he would be fine with it IMHO.

Sadiq [ Ganguly is probably worth an ODI spot more than a test
spot anyway - easier competition with Venu Rao so far ]
Yusuf


> dp

Vig

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Dec 15, 2005, 1:18:43 PM12/15/05
to
dp wrote:
> Gafoor wrote:
>
>>>And Ganguly drama has been the dominant theme of his stint anyway, not
>>>sure why we should ignore it. Apart from that, selecting Agarkar over
>>>Zaheer for tests?
>>
>>How do you know GC was responsible? It may be Dravid also?
>
>
> I don't know, but my hunch is it was Chappell. Zaheer is not known for
> his hard work and apparently Chappell likes those who put in lot of
> hard work.

You make it sound like a bad thing...

> As part of team management he decides who should be supersub. If he
> doesn't even know how to make best use of it, how does he decide?
> Coaching skills include things like strategy and tactics. It is not
> just how to hold a bat or how to move your feet.

And what is wrong in saying that the supersub rule favours the team
winning the toss?

Cheers!
--
Vig

dp

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Dec 15, 2005, 1:23:08 PM12/15/05