Slowest ball in world cricket?
Luke Curtis
There is much exitment and interest in the fastest ball in world
cricket but in a discussion about whether Panesar was bowling too fast
Michael Vaughan's stats were shown for comparison - his slowest ball
was 43.1mph, now I don't watch a huge amout of cricket but i don't
think I have ever seen a ball that slow in international cricket, I
don't remember seeing many (if any) below 45 mph...
arahim
arahim
What's the slowest one can bowl and still get the ball to the keeper
with one bounce or a full toss?
Phil.
Really according to Bruce Yardley that's the speed Murali bowls his
doosra! (After remediation, before he was bowling it at 40mph).
RishiX
The underarm delivery must've been slower than that for sure...
Dipak Basu
"arahim" <arahim...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175288132.6...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> What's the slowest one can bowl and still get the ball to the keeper
> with one bounce or a full toss?
With a 4.5 oz ball it depends on how far back the keeper is standing,
surface friction, air density, altitude, humidity, wind speed and direction,
ball newness - any physics buffs out there?
DB.
arahim
> "arahim" <arahim_ara...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
two yards. For a full toss, tossed at a 45 degree angle at 6 feet
above the ground, keeper collecting it at three feet above the ground
with no wind resistance. A simple projectile problem.
> DB.
dodo
that made underarm illegal, and required that the ball only pitch once
to be legal. Otherwise one could imagine Malinga making the ball skip
like a pebble on the water a couple of times ...
Bob Dubery
I think those are fairly recent inclusions in the laws, though ODIs
have had a playing condition nixing underarm bowling for a lot longer.
To me a ban on underarm bowling is going too far. The problem with
that infamous delivery was not that it was underarm but that it was
rolled. IMO underam lobs should still be allowed, but there should be
wording in the laws to require that the ball bounce no more than once
or that prevent it being rolled.
How many times does a rolled ball bounce anyway? Maybe this is why
there's a ban on underarm deliveries. Somebody could do a Chappell and
then argue that the ball had indeed bounced once - just not very high.
Mad Hamish
wrote:
Word it "Must not bounce twice or more and must not have rolled along
the ground"
--
"Hope is replaced by fear and dreams by survival, most of us get by."
Stuart Adamson 1958-2001
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
newsunsp...@iinet.unspamme.net.au
Rats
Did you know that when Muralicheat was tested at the UWA he was
"bowling" at 65kph (40.6mph)!!!
Hotcocky
Are you sure this is the speed the ball left his hand at? What, you're
not? So why bring it up?
--P
rodney...@gmail.com
Tom Armitage must surely have come close to bowling the slowest-ever
delivery in the first-ever Test Match in 1876/77. Not long after
dropping Charles Bannerman at mid-off, Armitage was brought on to
bowl. The 29-year-old Yorkshireman's round-arm "lobs" (as they were
affectionately called by his chief admirer, James Southerton) were not
delivered with the usual accuracy and aplomb for which he was so
renowned back at home. With some extraordinary stroke-making from
Bannerman, Armitage's flighted deliveries were dispatched in an almost
disdainful manner.
In his despondency, Armitage (the fattest member of the England team)
resorted to delivering his "lobs" with an underarm action (which
actually made them lobs in the true sense of the word), floating down
an entire over of deliveries which, if things went according to plan,
were meant to fly over the batsman's head and drop onto his bails.
E.M. Grace, by the way, had been the first to try this after his
ability to bowl fast round-arm stuff was terminated following an
unfortunate hunting accident. Having begun to bowl underarm lobs,
Grace soon discovered that it was possible to deliver an almost
unplayable delivery by sending the ball up so high that it sailed
right over the batsman's head and dropped at an almost perpendicular
angle down straight down onto the stumps. Henry Jupp, a member of
Armitage's team here, had been the first batsman to suffer this fate.
Grace's actions were vehemently deplored.
Armitage's attempts were met with much less success than those of that
most tenacious member of the Grace brotherhood. Armitage's sixth
delivery with the new action flew way too far over Bannerman's head
and was wided. The 4,500-strong crowd found this extremely amusing,
one member remarking that the Australian batsmen would not be able to
reach Armitage's bowling with a clothes prop. The hapless bowler now
resorted to rolling the ball down the pitch, but these grubbers served
only to inflict more pain and shame on his rapidly-declining
reputation. His captain put him out of his misery by taking him off
straightaway.
It is incredible to think that, during the previous English season,
Armitage had met with resounding success as a bowler. In one match,
for Yorkshire versus Surrey, he had picked up as many as thirteen
scalps in a match.
Rodney Ulyate
The cricket blog to which I grudgingly contribute: http://crickex.blogspot.com/
My Wikipedia talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Robertson-Glasgow
Bob Dubery
<newsunspammel...@iinet.unspamme.net.au> wrote:
> On 30 Mar 2007 21:47:37 -0700, "Bob Dubery" <megap...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
<snip>
> >How many times does a rolled ball bounce anyway? Maybe this is why
> >there's a ban on underarm deliveries. Somebody could do a Chappell and
> >then argue that the ball had indeed bounced once - just not very high.
>
> Word it "Must not bounce twice or more and must not have rolled along
> the ground"
But you know what's going to happen in this argumentative and
pernickety day and age. Some clever dick will argue that a ball that
APPEARED to roll, did bounce but just kept very low.
Safer. but sadder. to just ban underarm deliveries completely because
it's hard to see how these kinds of disputes can arise when the ball
is delivered overarm or at least, in the case of Malinga, round arm.
Is there a definition of what is, or is not, underarm? Some
requirement that the arm, for a certain part of the delivery, must not
be lower than the shoulder?
We're going backwards here. There used to be a regulation that said
that the arm could not rise above the shoulder, now we're going to
have to have an opposite rule. Probably there'll be tolerance too once
cameras start showing that some or other bowler's arm dips below the
shoulder as he is delivering.
Phil.
Actually I am sure since it was measured under lab conditions using
state of the art technology, which is why I originally brought it up
in response to the OP.
Phil.
Hotcocky
I'm sure we've discussed this before. Which is why my question was
assressed to Mr Rats.
While the tests were indeed "measured under lab conditions using state
of the art technology", what is your evidence that the tests measuring
Murali's speed at 65-70kph were directly comparable with speed gun
values used in Test matches?
The authors state..."The mean time for his upper-arm to move from the
horizontal to release in Testing session 2 (= 0.072s) was compared with
the same movement recorded on video from the recent Sri Lanka vs
Australia Test series...While the positioning of cameras...was not
ideal...it was evident that the time for the upper-arm to move from the
horizontal to release was similar for the Test series and the laboratory
testing...We therefore contend that the bowling action recorded was
similar to that used in a Test match."
Dr Cock.
Rats
Yes, they had a speedball radar there. I'll see if I can dig up the
OFFICIAL analysis for you.
Rats
Here is a recent article about Muralitharan that highlights my point:
Hotcocky
Hmmm. Fair enough. But here's one from 3 days later...
And how about this (probably from the same press conference)? I haven't
got $2.50 to spare...
"Chuck test clears Murali
AUD2.50 - Sunday Herald Sun - News Limited Australia - Aug 13, 2006
Elliott and fellow UWA biomechanist Dr Jacqueline Alderson said the
speed of deliveries had no bearing on the elbow extension."
--
My contribution to this thread was motivated purely by my frustration at
it's potential metamorphosis into another Murali bashing-fest.
Of course, this argument has been done to death here before, and I've
now wasted an hour or so rereading some of it. However, can the "3/4
rat's pace" jibes not be consigned to history?
I recognise that the same evidence can, of course, be treated rather
differently depending on your preconceptions (eg UWA are in Murali's
pocket/UWA tests prove his legitimacy beyond doubt). But the most recent
tests mean we can reinforce these prejudices without the speed McGuffin
(i.e., he was slow so he must have cheated), and we can carry on an
invigorating discussion on super slow bowlers.
Carl Hooper made Chris Gayle look hurried.
--P
Rats
> Rats wrote:
> > On Apr 1, 9:05 pm, Hotcocky <drhotc...@snotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Rats wrote:
> >>> On Mar 31, 8:37 am, Luke Curtis <l...@whofan.pNOSPAMlus.com> wrote:
> >>>> There is much exitment and interest in the fastest ball in world
> >>>> cricket but in a discussion about whether Panesar was bowling too fast
> >>>> Michael Vaughan's stats were shown for comparison - his slowest ball
> >>>> was 43.1mph, now I don't watch a huge amout of cricket but i don't
> >>>> think I have ever seen a ball that slow in international cricket, I
> >>>> don't remember seeing many (if any) below 45 mph...
> >>> Did you know that when Muralicheat was tested at the UWA he was
> >>> "bowling" at 65kph (40.6mph)!!!
> >> Are you sure this is the speed the ball left his hand at? What, you're
> >> not? So why bring it up?
>
> >> --P
>
> > Here is a recent article about Muralitharan that highlights my point:
>
>
> Hmmm. Fair enough. But here's one from 3 days later...
>
>
> And how about this (probably from the same press conference)? I haven't
> got $2.50 to spare...
>
> "Chuck test clears Murali
> AUD2.50 - Sunday Herald Sun - News Limited Australia - Aug 13, 2006
> Elliott and fellow UWA biomechanist Dr Jacqueline Alderson said the
> speed of deliveries had no bearing on the elbow extension."
>
> --
>
> My contribution to this thread was motivated purely by my frustration at
> it's potential metamorphosis into another Murali bashing-fest.
>
> Of course, this argument has been done to death here before, and I've
> now wasted an hour or so rereading some of it. However, can the "3/4
> rat's pace" jibes not be consigned to history?
>
> I recognise that the same evidence can, of course, be treated rather
> differently depending on your preconceptions (eg UWA are in Murali's
> pocket/UWA tests prove his legitimacy beyond doubt). But the most recent
> tests mean we can reinforce these prejudices without the speed McGuffin
> (i.e., he was slow so he must have cheated), and we can carry on an
> invigorating discussion on super slow bowlers.
>
> Carl Hooper made Chris Gayle look hurried.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
If he wasn't a cheat then why did he try to "bowl" at 65kph in the
first place?
Rats
> Rats wrote:
> > On Apr 1, 9:05 pm, Hotcocky <drhotc...@snotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Rats wrote:
> >>> On Mar 31, 8:37 am, Luke Curtis <l...@whofan.pNOSPAMlus.com> wrote:
> >>>> There is much exitment and interest in the fastest ball in world
> >>>> cricket but in a discussion about whether Panesar was bowling too fast
> >>>> Michael Vaughan's stats were shown for comparison - his slowest ball
> >>>> was 43.1mph, now I don't watch a huge amout of cricket but i don't
> >>>> think I have ever seen a ball that slow in international cricket, I
> >>>> don't remember seeing many (if any) below 45 mph...
> >>> Did you know that when Muralicheat was tested at the UWA he was
> >>> "bowling" at 65kph (40.6mph)!!!
> >> Are you sure this is the speed the ball left his hand at? What, you're
> >> not? So why bring it up?
>
> >> --P
>
> > Here is a recent article about Muralitharan that highlights my point:
>
>
> Hmmm. Fair enough. But here's one from 3 days later...
>
>
> And how about this (probably from the same press conference)? I haven't
> got $2.50 to spare...
>
> "Chuck test clears Murali
> AUD2.50 - Sunday Herald Sun - News Limited Australia - Aug 13, 2006
> Elliott and fellow UWA biomechanist Dr Jacqueline Alderson said the
> speed of deliveries had no bearing on the elbow extension."
>
> --
>
> My contribution to this thread was motivated purely by my frustration at
> it's potential metamorphosis into another Murali bashing-fest.
>
> Of course, this argument has been done to death here before, and I've
> now wasted an hour or so rereading some of it. However, can the "3/4
> rat's pace" jibes not be consigned to history?
>
> I recognise that the same evidence can, of course, be treated rather
> differently depending on your preconceptions (eg UWA are in Murali's
> pocket/UWA tests prove his legitimacy beyond doubt). But the most recent
> tests mean we can reinforce these prejudices without the speed McGuffin
> (i.e., he was slow so he must have cheated), and we can carry on an
> invigorating discussion on super slow bowlers.
>
> Carl Hooper made Chris Gayle look hurried.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The mere fact that it says "Murali's bowling speed varied from 76.3 km/
h to 98.6 km/h and he did record one elbow extension of 14.4 degrees
and another of 14.1." is enough to suggest that he'd be going over the
15 degree mark in games. If he's so close to the mark under lab
conditions he would be throwing his arm out in games.
The guy's a fucking cheat. Nuff said.
**MattO**
Chucker in the lab tests is very, very slow and gets away with it.
Phil.
And yet it was your contribution that raised that possibility!
>
> Of course, this argument has been done to death here before, and I've
> now wasted an hour or so rereading some of it. However, can the "3/4
> rat's pace" jibes not be consigned to history?
Why, it's a fact that when tested he bowled his doosra significantly
slower that he does in matches, do that nowadays and you get a ban!
Phil.
rodney...@gmail.com
I wonder how many lob bowlers there have actually been in Test
cricket. Forgive me for digressing, but does anybody know?
Hotcocky
>
> If he wasn't a cheat then why did he try to "bowl" at 65kph in the
> first place?
>
Testers were satisfied. Why? Just because of Bruce Yardley? Can you find
a quote suggesting that the testers have ever felt they were being
cheated? All I can find is "the speed of deliveries had no bearing on
the elbow extension."
Hotcocky
I thought this started it...
"Did you know that when Muralicheat was tested at the UWA he was
"bowling" at 65kph (40.6mph)!!!"
Or maybe the first poster to mention Murali...(or was he trying to give
a serious answer to the OP?)
>
>> Of course, this argument has been done to death here before, and I've
>> now wasted an hour or so rereading some of it. However, can the "3/4
>> rat's pace" jibes not be consigned to history?
>
> Why, it's a fact that when tested he bowled his doosra significantly
> slower that he does in matches, do that nowadays and you get a ban!
What about the 2006 numbers? Does it matter if "speed of deliveries had
no bearing on the elbow extension"?
>
> Phil.
>
Mike Holmans
keyboard and brought forth:
>I wonder how many lob bowlers there have actually been in Test
>cricket. Forgive me for digressing, but does anybody know?
Do you mean people who have bowled underarm in a Test match or people
who have been selected to bowl underarm?
I'm fairly sure, for instance, that Mike Brearley delivered an over of
lobs in some match which had become particularly pointless, whereas
the last bloke actually picked to bowl lobs was probably RG
Simpson-Hayward.
Cheers,
Mike
--
Phil.
The 2006 numbers are irrelevant, they were private tests carried for
Murali and had no relationship to his match bowling and certainly
weren't compared with match footage as is required by ICC rules.
Whether he does bowl at match speed does matter since failure to do so
in an official test under ICC protocols gets you banned.
Phil.
rodney...@gmail.com
> On 2 Apr 2007 01:22:58 -0700, rodney.uly...@gmail.com tapped the
> keyboard and brought forth:
>
> >I wonder how many lob bowlers there have actually been in Test
> >cricket. Forgive me for digressing, but does anybody know?
>
> Do you mean people who have bowled underarm in a Test match or people
> who have been selected to bowl underarm?
Well, I originally meant the former, but I only know of two - Simpson-
Hayward and Walter Humphreys (although I'm not sure that he played a
Test on Stoddart's 1894/95, so it might only be one). It would
probably be more productive, therefore, to have a look around for
everyone who's done it.
> I'm fairly sure, for instance, that Mike Brearley delivered an over of
> lobs in some match which had become particularly pointless, whereas
> the last bloke actually picked to bowl lobs was probably RG
> Simpson-Hayward.
Which one was his fantastic, series-winning tour of South Africa?
Hotcocky
The 2004 numbers are irrelevant as at the time the testers were
satisfied he was bowling at match speed, etc.
Is it really worth pursuing this any further?
Was there any point in bringing Murali into this thread?
P
Phil.
> Phil. wrote:
> > Hotcocky wrote:
> >> Phil. wrote:
> >>> Hotcocky wrote:
> >>>> Rats wrote:
> >>>>> On Apr 1, 9:05 pm, Hotcocky <drhotc...@snotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Rats wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Mar 31, 8:37 am, Luke Curtis <l...@whofan.pNOSPAMlus.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> There is much exitment and interest in the fastest ball in world
> >>>>>>>> cricket but in a discussion about whether Panesar was bowling too fast
> >>>>>>>> Michael Vaughan's stats were shown for comparison - his slowest ball
> >>>>>>>> was 43.1mph, now I don't watch a huge amout of cricket but i don't
> >>>>>>>> think I have ever seen a ball that slow in international cricket, I
> >>>>>>>> don't remember seeing many (if any) below 45 mph...
> >>>>>>> Did you know that when Muralicheat was tested at the UWA he was
> >>>>>>> "bowling" at 65kph (40.6mph)!!!
> >>>>>> Are you sure this is the speed the ball left his hand at? What, you're
> >>>>>> not? So why bring it up?
>
> >>>>>> --P
> >>>>> Here is a recent article about Muralitharan that highlights my point:
>
>
> >>>> Hmmm. Fair enough. But here's one from 3 days later...
>
Yes it was an example of a bowler bowling slower than 45mph in
response to the original poster's question ("his slowest ball was
43.1mph, now I don't watch a huge amout of cricket but i don't think I
have ever seen a ball that slow in international cricket, I don't
remember seeing many (if any) below 45 mph...")
For some reason you decided to open up the discussion about the
legality of Murali's bowling.
Phil.
Luke Curtis
And since I started the thread I have watched footage of a Sri Lanka
WC game and one of Murali's balls (!) come done at 43.6mph, still
faster than the Vaughan ball but much closer at only 0.5mph faster.
Most of his deliveries come down much faster though, anything from 45
to 55 mph.
arahim
> There is much exitment and interest in the fastest ball in world
> cricket but in a discussion about whether Panesar was bowling too fast
> Michael Vaughan's stats were shown for comparison - his slowest ball
> was 43.1mph, now I don't watch a huge amout of cricket but i don't
> think I have ever seen a ball that slow in international cricket, I
> don't remember seeing many (if any) below 45 mph...
It would be interesting to know...
1) These rather slow deliveries that you are talking about where are
they pitching on the wicket approximately (half way down, about ten
feet from the batsmen, or are they all over the place).
2) What is the slowest yorker speed that people have seen.
3) What is the slowest waist high full toss speed seen.
Rats
If they didn't feel they were being cheated then why did they bring
the speedball radar in?
Luke Curtis
wrote:
This was before speed guns (at least on English TV) but either Walsh
or Ambrose bowled what looked like a head high beamer to Thorpe who
naturally ducked and looked away... but like a V2 rocket 3/4 of the
way down the pitch it just dropped out of the sky and hit him on the
foot (!) and he was given out LBW - I bet that was pretty slow.....
rodney...@gmail.com
I own a beautiful-looking book called "Phil Edmonds' 100 Greatest
Bowlers" (Queen Anne Press, 1989), ghost-written by Scyld Berry, and
in it is the following, which I found to be supremely interesting, in
the chapter on "The Terror" Turner:
"In our terms Turner was not fast at all: his speed was actually
measured at Woolwich Observatory during a tour of England as 55mph.
Yet he came quickly off the pitch and, as a result, Grace rated him
the second fastest bowler he had ever faced." - p. 19.
I am not particularly gifted when it comes to anything mathematical,
but my calculations convert 55mph to just under 90kph - which is
EXCEPTIONALLY slow, in my opinion. Do any of you know more about this?
rodney...@gmail.com
> On 3 Apr 2007 12:47:52 -0700, "arahim" <arahim_ara...@hotmail.com>
I believe it happened in the 2000 series, the one which saw England
win the Wisden Trophy for the first time since the days of the Three
Ws. Thorpe, I seem to recall, was not the only victim of that
particular delivery during the series. I can't remember who bowled it,
though.