Miandad,Zaheer,Vishwanath,V'sarkar - all overrated
Ravi Krishna
Let me clarify that this is not a Pak bashing session. In this post I am
exposing Indian batsmen also who have reputation more than they deserve.
I honestly feel that had cricket been played with neutral umpires right from
the beginning , many so called great players performance would have been
inferior but in the process it would have revealed their true worth.
Flames / opinions welcome.
Miandad:-
M I NO R Avg 50 100 HS Ct St
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Australia 25 40 2 1797 47.28 7 6 211 12 1
England 22 32 6 1329 51.11 9 2 260 20 0
India 28 39 6 2228 67.51 14 5 280* 18 0
New Zealand 18 29 5 1919 79.95 6 7 271 20 0
Sri Lanka 12 16 2 582 41.57 2 1 203* 11 0
West Indies 16 28 0 834 29.78 4 2 114 12 0
Zimbabwe 3 5 0 143 28.60 1 0 70 0 0
Home 60 86 13 4481 61.38 17 14 280* 40 1
Away 64 103 8 4351 45.80 26 9 271 53 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 124 189 21 8832 52.57 43 23 280* 93 1
Home Away
Bowled 11 10
LBW 8 25
Caught 32 28
Caught Behind 15 23
Caught & Bowled 1 3
Stumped 3 1
Run Out 3 5
Look for Miandad's performance against W.I.
It is obvious that Miandad's home performance is much better than away though
I admit that it is not as lop-sided as that of Zaheer. Miandad's first LBW
at home was in 1985 , after playing for 9 years. I refuse to believe that
there was no bowler in the world who was good enuf to get him out LBW from
1976 to 1985. His first LBW at home ( of all the countries it was against
Lanka) was a news by itself. BBC in it's sports news mentioned it
sarcastically. Not to be outdone , Indian newspaper also mentioned it with
more than necessary attention. That's why I remember it even today.
=========================================================================
Zaheer Abbas:-
M I NO R Avg 50 100 HS Ct St
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Australia 20 34 2 1411 44.09 12 2 126 14 0
England 14 24 3 1086 51.71 4 2 274 5 0
India 19 25 5 1740 87.00 3 6 235* 6 0
New Zealand 14 24 0 428 17.83 0 1 135 4 0
Sri Lanka 3 2 0 138 69.00 0 1 134 0 0
West Indies 8 15 1 259 18.50 1 0 80 5 0
Home 36 51 9 2444 58.19 5 8 235* 11 0
Away 42 73 2 2618 36.87 15 4 274 23 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 78 124 11 5062 44.79 20 12 274 34 0
Home Away
Bowled 8 13
LBW 6 7
Caught 14 27
Caught Behind 12 18
Caught & Bowled 0 2
Stumped 1 1
Run Out 1 3
I will not comment much. You can see his performance in Pakistan and away.
=========================================================================
Vishwanath:-
M I NO R Avg 50 100 HS Ct St
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Australia 18 31 2 1538 53.03 9 4 161* 15 0
England 30 54 4 1880 37.60 12 4 222 19 0
New Zealand 9 17 2 585 39.00 4 1 103* 5 0
Pakistan 15 23 1 611 27.77 3 1 145 8 0
Sri Lanka 1 2 0 11 5.50 0 0 9 1 0
West Indies 18 28 1 1455 53.88 7 4 179 15 0
Home 48 81 7 3502 47.32 15 10 222 33 0
Away 43 74 3 2578 36.30 20 4 145 30 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 91 155 10 6080 41.93 35 14 222 63 0
Home Away
Bowled 17 24
LBW 9 7
Caught 27 19
Caught Behind 13 18
Caught & Bowled 4 0
Stumped 3 1
Run Out 1 2
Many people ( you know whom I am referring to) consider him to be better than
Gavaskar for reasons other than cricket.
He also has a biased record in home than away. Also he was a
liability as a fielder, with his protruding pot belly he gave least confidence
that he will ever take a catch. Over a period of time I started enjoying
bashing Vishwanath ( much to the irritation of Vishy fans) because IMO he has
been overrated in India.
The only run out he ever had in India was in the Delhi test against Pak in
1979-80. It is something to be remembered. Sikandar Bakth bowled a ball to
Gavaskar which he hit back straight. Bakht made a great but failed attempt to
catch it , he even got a hand on it , but the force was too much and it came
out of his hands and hit the stumps at non-striking end. Vishy who was at the
other end was out of the crease and he was run out. So a ball which should
have got out Gavaskar actually got rid of Vishy. Things like this happen very
rare.
=========================================================================
Vengsarakr:-
M I NO R Avg 50 100 HS Ct St
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Australia 24 38 4 1304 38.35 7 2 164* 18 0
England 26 43 6 1589 42.94 6 5 157 15 0
New Zealand 11 17 1 440 27.50 3 0 75 13 0
Pakistan 22 35 6 1284 44.27 8 2 146* 13 0
Sri Lanka 8 12 1 655 59.54 4 2 166 6 0
West Indies 25 40 4 1596 44.33 7 6 159 13 0
Home 54 80 13 3725 55.59 15 13 166 42 0
Away 62 105 9 3143 32.73 20 4 157 36 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 116 185 22 6868 42.13 35 17 166 78 0
Home Away
Bowled 9 7
LBW 8 11
Caught 32 39
Caught Behind 12 33
Caught & Bowled 1 3
Stumped 4 0
Run Out 1 2
Hit Wicket 0 1
Another overrated player with biased record towards home. In his four trips
to Australia his highest was 75. 'Great' batting. Imran made a
mincemeat of him in the 1982-83 series. He had no clue to his deliveries.
His only good record is in England where he has a better record than any other
Indian batsmen or even Miandad.
=========================================================================
Now see the record of Gavaskar and you will understand why I am a fan of him.
The only other Indian batsman I like is Mohinder Amarnath who incidentally has
a much better away record than home. Viv Richards also have a equally good
home and away record. True sign of a great batsman. Once David Gower made a
sarcastic remark that getting a LBW against Gavaskar in India is tougher than
stealing Taj Mahal , an obvious reference to Indian umpires. Gavaskar
retorted that he got more LBW's at home than away. Needless to say Gower
never replied back.
Sunil Gavaskar:-
M I NO R Avg 50 100 HS Ct St
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Australia 20 31 1 1550 51.66 4 8 172 19 0
England 38 67 2 2483 38.20 16 4 221 35 0
New Zealand 9 16 1 651 43.40 3 2 119 11 0
Pakistan 24 41 4 2089 56.45 12 5 166 19 0
Sri Lanka 7 11 2 600 66.66 3 2 176 7 0
West Indies 27 48 6 2749 65.45 7 13 236* 17 0
Home 65 108 7 5067 50.16 23 16 236* 51 0
Away 60 106 9 5055 52.11 22 18 221 57 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 125 214 16 10122 51.12 45 34 236* 108 0
Home Away
Bowled 16 17
LBW 10 7
Caught 51 31
Caught Behind 18 36
Caught & Bowled 4 1
Stumped 1 1
Run Out 1 4
pan.dh...@teldta.com
You missed out Mohinder Amarnath
Mumtaz Khan
Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
> Let me clarify that this is not a Pak bashing session. In this post I am
> exposing Indian batsmen also who have reputation more than they deserve.
> I honestly feel that had cricket been played with neutral umpires right from
> the beginning , many so called great players performance would have been
> inferior but in the process it would have revealed their true worth.
>
> Flames / opinions welcome.
>
These are just my opinions:
Rating a player just on figures is not sufficient, but also
the class of a player comes (specially for a batsman) from his
style, versatility, variations, control, adaptability etc.
also. All these players you have mentioned are in class of
their own. Miandad showed how the cheecky singles can be taken
and how to get the control over the bowler, Zaheer showed the
display of wrist shots with minimum effort and placing of the
ball in such a way that a fielder couldn't realise what went
wrong on his part, Vishwanath showed to play high class strokes
one does not need to be a six-foot tall and how to play with-
out giving the bowler a sign of ease, Vengsarkar showed how to
stay at the crease and keep playing the strokes. Gavaskar no
doubt is the world record holder and always used to be a sheet
anchor for his side who could easily block one end, but he was
a copy book stroke player, anything other than that he used to
leave, and he couldn't create strokes unlike others, that's why
his innings were always long because he waits for the bad ball.
Manjraker considered (when he came to test cricket) as the new
Gavaskar, but he also had the same technique and look what has
happened to him. Look the popularity Shane Warne got, but to me
Mushtaq of Pakistan and Kamble of India are no less than to him
in the class.
So I think, figures do advocate the class of the player but that
is not the only critarean for adjudjing the class. So I think
all these players are rated what they deserve.
Thanx....
su...@curly.raleigh.ibm.com
Ravi Krishna writes:
*** A lot of almost meaningless statistics and a lot of baloney **
If the point of his post was to prove that Gavaskar should have been
rated higher than any of those he is slamming, then it is wasted.
Everybody knows when it comes to records Gavaskar is streets ahead
of others. And I have seen no contentions that any of these batsmen
have been rated higher than Gavskar, except maybe Miandad.
Opinions about who is best can be very subjective, and also require
deeper analysis than who scored more runs abroad. There are certain
things that Gavaskar could do that any of these others could not do. For
example score 30 test centuries or score 10,000 runs or keep batting
successfully until he was 40. All of these had to with sound
technique, tremendous application, discipline, and hunger for runs
and records. For the others success came more from their natural
talent, physical abilities, instincts etc. For these very reasons,
they could not pile up records and could not last long.
Are there things the others could do that Gavaskar couldn't ? Plenty.
I wouldn't count on Gavaskar hitting a six of the last ball of an ODI
match (like Miandad). I cannot visualize a Gavaskar attack Andy Roberts
at his fiery best for unbeaten 97 while 7 of his team members were
falling like ninepins (a la Vishwanath). And if I had a choice, and I
was not biased towards India, I would rather watch a short and sweet innings from Zaheer Abbas and
Vishwanath than a boring Gavaskar double century. And if there was anyone
who rated Vishwanath higher than Gavaskar it was Sunil himself.
Giriraj S. Vengurlekar
Gavaskar's record...
>
> Home 65 108 7 5067 50.16 23 16 236* 51 0
> Away 60 106 9 5055 52.11 22 18 221 57 0
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> TOTAL 125 214 16 10122 51.12 45 34 236* 108
Well Ravi people will probably say that SMG had selfish motives to keep
his home avg less than his away avg. -
By the way SMG is one of the very few Indians who has never taken
nonsense from players/commentators during his career and after.
--
GIRIRAJ VENGURLEKAR
Software Engineer 1035 Aster Ave #2205
Ericsson Fiber Access Sunnyvale -CA 94086
Menlo Park - CA 408 296 7976
415 688 2098
__________________________________________________________________
Krishnan
Heard of lot of people say that Gavaskar played only for records etc etc.
God how i wish there were someone now who could occupy the wicket for long
periods of time and "play only for records".
we need a couple more like sunny now.
Oh where art thou sunny?
Cheers
Ak
---
************************************************************************************
Arun Krishnan
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of South CArolina
ph #: 803-777-6750
Home: 100, Riverbend Drive
App # E-6,
West Columbia,
SC-29169.
Hmmm... I have nothing profound to add here like so many of my comrades seem to have.:-)
************************************************************************************
Sankara
Gavaskar's three critical failures in my view were when he failed
miserably against:
(1) Marshall, Holding, Garner et al in 82-83 in WI.
(2) Lillee in 80-81
(3) Hadlee in 80-81
It was not by coincidence that Gavaskar was out of form during those
three greatest challenges during his career. It was just that he was not
as good as he was made out to be. Zaheer Abbas had a sounder technique
and better application than Gavaskar against weaker bowlers. That does
not make him a better batsman than Gavaskar. The best is the one who
performs consistently during crises. Miandad is better than Gavaskar in
my opinion. Also IMHO he is the greatest batsman from Asia. He may have
been dirty and mean but was a great fighter and an invaluable asset
during a crisis. In my opinion Gavaskar was more of a fair weather
johnson.
Sankara
Ravi Aron
Sankara avers
>Gavaskar's three critical failures in my view were when he failed
>miserably against:
>(1) Marshall, Holding, Garner et al in 82-83 in WI.
Got a century on that tour. 147 or so. The match ended in a draw, washed
out I think. He'd proved his mettle against a Roberts (at his best),
Holding and Co. in WI when we toured in 76 (?). He took on the same
Marshall and Holding, not to mention Shastri (-: , (-:, (-: and scored a
big century against them at Lords in his last match. A knock that Imran
batting opposite him, rated as one of the three best that he'd ever seen
any batsman play.
(2) Lillee in 80-81
(3) Hadlee in 80-81
>It was not by coincidence that Gavaskar was out of form during those
>three greatest challenges during his career.
The last two would Certainly not count amongst the three greatest
challenges during his career. The Pak. tour that ended just before 82-83
WI tour and the Pak tour that Bedi led India to were far more significant.
Not to mention Ajit Wadekar's disastrous English campaign in 72 when we
were wiped out 3-0. The English side those days was a formidable bowling
side (even without having destructive pacers) and SMG's 52 odd at
Manchester (??? - could someone clarify please ) is still considered by
the purists as his finest knock. And in both Pak tours he was in great
form.
> It was just that he was not as good as he was made out to be. Zaheer
Abbas had a sounder >technique and better application than Gavaskar
against weaker bowlers.
Two observations:
1. Technique is something that you have or don't have. Its not as though
you have excellent Technique against weak bowlers but falter against the
good ones. Zaheer like Azhar had the ability to murder anything short of
really good bowling (or very fast bowling) and did so often. SMG gathered
his runs pretty much the same way against the De'Silvas as he did against
the Holdings.
2. Exactly what is he made out to be ? The original poster - Suri - gave a
pretty accurate and balanced assesment of SMG. The man had determination,
concentration and applied himself with considerable self discipline.
Exactly how would you take any of these away from him, I wonder. SMG
played a great Borg to Vishy's Ille Nashtase. While he was no Richards,
Viv Richards *** never faced Roberts, Holding, Garner, Marshall and
Croft*** in a test match at Sabina park or Perth. And Zaheer or Miandad
for that matter were no Richards either.
>That does not make him a better batsman than Gavaskar. The best is the
one who
>performs consistently during crises. Miandad is better than Gavaskar in
>my opinion.
The test you prescribed for SMG - how well did he play the WI quartet of
Holding, Marshall, Garner and Roberts - leaves Miandad trailing Gavaskar
by a dozen laps.
> Also IMHO he is the greatest batsman from Asia. He may have
>been dirty and mean but was a great fighter and an invaluable asset
>during a crisis.
That is well said. Minadad (again as Suri pointed out) excelled in a
crisis. I don't think the SMG's of this world would alter the course of
history by clouting the last ball out of the ground.
>In my opinion Gavaskar was more of a fair weather johnson.
Johnson ????
>Sankara
ravi (where was the 50 odd of SMG's scored in England ) aron.
A.M.Narayanan
Sankara (sank...@vm.cc.purdu.edu) wrote:
: Gavaskar's three critical failures in my view were when he failed
: miserably against:
: (1) Marshall, Holding, Garner et al in 82-83 in WI.
: (2) Lillee in 80-81
: (3) Hadlee in 80-81
In all the above series SMG did badly.
In WI 82-83 he avgd 30.x But we should remember that it was his worst perf
against WI. OTOH Javed's avg perf against WI was worse than SMG's worst
perf. Thomson of mid 70s was faster and more accurate than anyone else.
He did well even against Hadlee in '76. Hadlee's figures used to be
12 overs 75 runs type. In 80-81, Hadlee got SMG only once. By that
time SMG made 53 runs.
Btw Lilee was just fast-medium in late '80s and Thomsom as must
faster in '76 than Lilee anytime was.
SMG had performed well then. The comparison basically is between people
who never really put up great performances against fast bowlers and
a person who has failed only one series against each of the sides.
Javed was very much relieved to get his first 100 against Windies.
It was so difficult for him to get runs against WI(as much diificulty
SMG faced to get 100 in ODIs). Having said all this, Javed was much
better player in ODIs and SMG was crap in ODI. However hard he tried he
couldn't get adjusted to ODIs. But when it comes to Tests SMG has achived
more than Javed in away series.
Narayanan
Krishnan
>miserably against:
>(1) Marshall, Holding, Garner et al in 82-83 in WI.
>(2) Lillee in 80-81
>(3) Hadlee in 80-81
>
>as good as he was made out to be. Zaheer Abbas had a sounder technique
>not make him a better batsman than Gavaskar. The best is the one who
>performs consistently during crises. Miandad is better than Gavaskar in
>been dirty and mean but was a great fighter and an invaluable asset
>johnson.
>
>Sankara
Really?:) he carried the Indian batting almost singlehandedly for 16 odd years.
With some help at times from Mohinder amarnath and in the 70's from Vishwanath.
cheers
ak
Neeran M. Karnik
Sankara <sank...@vm.cc.purdu.edu> writes:
>Gavaskar's three critical failures in my view were when he failed
>miserably against:
>(1) Marshall, Holding, Garner et al in 82-83 in WI.
>(2) Lillee in 80-81
>(3) Hadlee in 80-81
>It was not by coincidence that Gavaskar was out of form during those
>three greatest challenges during his career. It was just that he was not
>as good as he was made out to be. Zaheer Abbas had a sounder technique
Oh, look who's back. If this was a year ago, I'd have asked you
"are you Rusi Modi in disguise?" but the great man died in an
accident...
>Sankara
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Neeran M. Karnik | #1 fan of Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar on r.s.c. :-> |
| Dept. of Comp.Sci. | "I was very very struck by his technique... |
| Univ of Minnesota | I feel that this fellow is playing much the same |
| Twin Cities campus | as I used to play" - Sir Donald Bradman |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rohan Chandran
ravi...@aol.com (Ravi Aron) said
>good ones. Zaheer like Azhar had the ability to murder anything short of
>really good bowling (or very fast bowling) and did so often. SMG gathered
1. Richard Hadlee was really good.
2. Devon Macolm was very fast.
cheers,
Rohan.
--
+1 (415) 497-5494
ro...@Cs.Stanford.EDU
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~rohanc/
Ravi Aron
Rohan returns with:
>ravi...@aol.com (Ravi Aron) said
>>good ones. Zaheer like Azhar had the ability to murder anything short of
>>really good bowling (or very fast bowling) and did so often. SMG
gathered
>1. Richard Hadlee was really good.
>2. Devon Macolm was very fast.
>cheers,
>Rohan.
Yes.
1. McDermott was really good AND Very fast.
2. Alan Donald was really good AND Very fast.
3. Holding was really good AND Very fast.
4. Marshall was really good AND Very fast.
5. Walsh was really good AND Very fast.
And when we played in SA, WI, Australia and Mohali ...
ravi (our Road Show again Rohan, will we be the Gilbert and Sullivan of
Cricket ?) aron.
su...@curly.raleigh.ibm.com
Ravi Aron writes:
>
> The last two would Certainly not count amongst the three greatest
> challenges during his career. The Pak. tour that ended just before 82-83
> WI tour and the Pak tour that Bedi led India to were far more significant.
> Not to mention Ajit Wadekar's disastrous English campaign in 72 when we
> were wiped out 3-0. The English side those days was a formidable bowling
> side (even without having destructive pacers) and SMG's 52 odd at
> Manchester (??? - could someone clarify please ) is still considered by
> the purists as his finest knock.
Actually he scored 102 at Old Trafford, one of the faster English wickets
- even Abid Ali took 4 wkts here- in a low-scoring match. But even here
Vishy (48) outperformed SMG in their 80 run partnership (opinion of BBC
commentators).
Ansari Mohsin
Ravi Krishna (rkri...@informix.com) wrote:
: Miandad:-
: M I NO R Avg 50 100 HS Ct St
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Home 60 86 13 4481 61.38 17 14 280* 40 1
: Away 64 103 8 4351 45.80 26 9 271 53 0
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------
: TOTAL 124 189 21 8832 52.57 43 23 280* 93 1
: Home Away
: LBW 8 25
: Look for Miandad's performance against W.I.
Miandad's performance against the W.I. is nothing to write home about and
his average definitely takes a sharp downturn. But his 1988-89 tour was
absolutely magnificent, comparable to Gavaskar's earlier tours to the
Carribean. Unfortunately, this series was not on TV, but I remember
remaining glued to the radio all night following that series. The WI were
still a formidable force at that time with Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh,
Benjamin, Patterson among others and the only solidity that was to be
found in the Pakistan batting was Miandad and a Shoaib who was performing
far above his abilities. Based on this batting alone, Pakistan came within
a whisker of clinching that series.
But Miandad's greatest contribution to Pakistan's cricket, which IMO
especially sets him apart from SMG, is that he alongwith Imran Khan, made
Pakistan a force to be reckoned with. In the 70s Pakistan had mega-talent
but they never gelled as a team. After these 'superstars' retired,
PAkistan cricket achieved enormous victories with very average talent,
simply because Miandad and Imran made them a "team". They taught the team
finally how to win and get over the hump. This is the legacy of Javed
Miandad and Imran Khan, and it is hard to find any other players in the
history of the game who have impacted their team's futures as much as
these two have.
Getting back to Miandad's batsmanship, it's easy to overlook the fact that
after Majid K. and Sadiq M. were separted, Pakistan for many years could
not find a decent pair of openers. Time and again, Miandad would have to
come in at 20 or 25 for 2, and try to take Pakistan's totals to
respectability, under great pressure knowing the fact that there was very
little reliable batting to follow. Opposed to this, SMG would be followed
with reasonably reliable batting as India consistently had good batting
line-ups through the 70s and 80s (Yes, it was their terrible bowling which
brought about their lack of success through the years and even to this
day).
: It is obvious that Miandad's home performance is much better than away
I think you're trying to hold the 15+ runs difference in Miandad's home
and away average against him. Miandad's record at home is brilliant and
should be. On pitches favourable for batting, he should do nothing but
pile up the runs. The more the merrier. I wouldn't mind him having an
average of 70 and making the home-away differential even greater.
Now, as far as his away record goes, yes, it's not as high as SMG, but
it's not altogether pretty bad either. I'm sure most people will agree
with me that an average of almost 46 away from home is very respectable (I
don't know off-hand but I'm sure your other hero, Mohinder Amarnath, does
not have these kind of numbers).
: Miandad's first LBW
: at home was in 1985 , after playing for 9 years. I refuse to believe that
: there was no bowler in the world who was good enuf to get him out LBW from
: 1976 to 1985. His first LBW at home ( of all the countries it was against
: Lanka) was a news by itself. BBC in it's sports news mentioned it
: sarcastically. Not to be outdone , Indian newspaper also mentioned it with
: more than necessary attention. That's why I remember it even today.
With regards to the LBWs, I will only be fooling myself if I say that
Miandad should not have been given out LBW more often at home. I'm sure
that he got the benefit of the doubt whenever possible, and on occasion
the benefit of the not-so-doubt :-) Now let's flip the equation and look
at his away LBWs. Out LBW 25 times in 103 innings. Correct me if I'm
wrong but that's roughly once once
every 4 times he went out to bat away from home. Don't you think that's a
little too high? Don't you think that, not all but at least some umpires
were almost as eager to get rid of this guy as much as the guy's
opposition? Don't you think that this could have lead to him not getting
the same benefits from the doubts and not-so-doubts that he was getting at
home, and in the process contributing to his absolutely horrendous away
average? Or would you say that, being the very average batsman that he was
there was something wrong with his technique that lead him to this
unusually high LBW rate away from home. But then again if he was faltering
in his technique, how the hell did he even manage the meagre 46 runs that
he did each time he time he went out to the crease? Maybe, the bowlers
and the coaches in his days were stupid or something? I don't know, you're
the genius around here, you tell me!
: =========================================================================
: Zaheer Abbas:-
: I will not comment much. You can see his performance in Pakistan and away.
I completely agree with you that Zaheer Abbas was overated as a batsman.
Could never perform under pressure. Most people just admire him for his
style and a few memorable knocks, especially his 274 at The Oval. But he
could never be counted on in a crisis, and as you pointed out his away
record certainly exposes his shortcomings as a truly world class batsman.
I mean an average of 36. is not even great for ODIs, let alone tests. BTW,
Zaheer was a good ODI batsman (7 100s in 50-odd matches is often
overlooked. Too bad he didn't get enough OD cricket, or he could've
certainly been amongst the elite).
: =========================================================================
: =========================================================================
: Now see the record of Gavaskar and you will understand why I am a fan of him.
: The only other Indian batsman I like is Mohinder Amarnath who incidentally has
: a much better away record than home. Viv Richards also have a equally good
: home and away record. True sign of a great batsman. Once David Gower made a
: sarcastic remark that getting a LBW against Gavaskar in India is tougher than
: stealing Taj Mahal , an obvious reference to Indian umpires. Gavaskar
: retorted that he got more LBW's at home than away. Needless to say Gower
: never replied back.
As far as Sunil Gavaskar goes, there is no doubt in my mind that he was a
great batsmen, among the finest in the history of the game and his
exploits with the bat home and away, especially away, are phenomenal. But
when comparing him with Miandad, you cannot just look at the away record
of the two or their exploits in the Windies and conclude that one is
better than the other. You have to look at the total package. Miandad does
trail SMG away from home but has a higher average at home and overall.
Even if away record means more to you than home, as it does to me I might
add, you cannot totally ignore home records either. But most
importantly, look at what Miandad and his batting meant to the team and
how it figured in the final result. Very few people argue that Miandad was
more of a team player than was Gavaskar and that alone is enough to tilt
the balance in Miandad's favor.
For many years, Miandad was the only
person who brought respectability to Pakistan's batting line-up. Once he
was out cheaply, wickets tumbled in quick succession. In short, he was the
Pakistan batting. Just imagine the pressure he played under, but he
still performed. Can we say the same about SMG? I don't think so.
Opening a solid batting line-up is not the same as being the part and
parcel of an average one. But even more importantly, look how the batting
of the two contributed to the final result. Pakistan, in the 80s
transformed from being a just a talented side to a winning side with
average talent. (I don't think anyone can claim Mohsin, Muddasar, Qasim
Omar, Shoaib, Ramiz, among others to be truly gifted). On the other hand,
India enjoyed some success at home but little overseas. Certainly, Miandad
was figuring into the final equation more heavily than Gavaskar.
But to me the greatest quality of javed Miandad and what sets him apart
from SMG and the rest of his peers is that he made the other players in
the team play better.
you may be surprised to find that in the 88-89 Windies and NZ tours every
time Shoaib Mohd made a good score, Javed Miandad was on the other end.
And who can forget Inzamam's knocks in the Semi-final and final of the 92
World Cup. Just rent those tapes and find out who was at the other end.
This has been the hallmark of Javed's career; he was an inspiration
to others around him and made them perform better. This was where his
true greatness lies. And this is why we Pakistanis and a surpringly large
number of Indians, rate him higher than SMG. And I haven't even started
talking about their ODI records!!!
Mohsin Ansari
Yawar Khawaja
In article <5eid8r$8...@news.informix.com>, rkri...@informix.com (Ravi
Krishna) wrote:
***** THanks for posting these records, here are a few points in this
regards:
1. I never compared the STATS for Miandad and Gavaskar, i only wrote about
Miandad. Miandad's home record is fantastic because of INDIA AND NZ. hE WAS
ESPECIALLY TOUGH ON NZ. The lack of any genuine pace bowler in the Indian
side required bowling by spin bowlers, who were killed by MIandad and
Zaheer.....no quetions about LBW or No LBW.....Miandad relied on quick
footwork and agility to "invent" his shots, he wasn't a technically sound
player like gavaskar(an opening batsman), so it was very difficult to have
him LBW.......25 TIMES IN AWAY SERIES!!!!.....C'MON MAN.....HE WAS A MARKED
MAN WHEREEVER HE WENT. tHE OPPOSING TEAMS MADE SURE HIS STAY ON THE CREASE
WAS SHORT!!!....and why was that?....because he was the backbone of the
pakistani batting!!
2. Actually almost all his LBW'S WERE OUT OF CHEATING, so that pakistan
wont be able to win, just get miandad out....all is well.
3. THE amount of runs scored by him is almost identical home and away, his
avg. at home is blostered by double hundreds against india and nz.
4. I think we should leave the discussion on "CHEATING" FOR SOME OTHER
DAY!!we also remember umpire punjabi, who is the only umpire who signalled
an out BEFORE an appeal....in pakistan that was shown over and over again,
also how gavaskar batted 3 times in the 2nd inning in the Banglore
test!!!....I have a tape of that match.
5. By the way very few batsmen excelled against the windies in those days,
one tour miandad came back due to family problems, the other tour he was
quite successfull.....
His greatness was recognized by the GREAT GAVASKAR himself many times....We
are cricket fans, but you sir are an Indian cricket fan only!!!!
cheers!!
The opinions expressed in this posting are in NO WAY opinions of
my EMPLOYER.
Krishnan
Actually, i thought that withthe kind of stance Miandad had, with his chest facing mid off he would have been more prone to lbw's than other batsmen with more "correct" stances. Any ideas people?
cheers
ak
---
************************************************************************************
Arun Krishnan
Department of Chemical Engineering
University of South CArolina
ph #: 803-777-6750
Home: 100, Riverbend Drive
App # E-6,
West Columbia,
SC-29169.
Hmmm... I have nothing profound to add here like so many of my comrades seem to have.:-)
************************************************************************************
shehzad haq
My compliments Mohsin. Finally, a post which is insightful.
>But Miandad's greatest contribution to Pakistan's cricket, which IMO
>especially sets him apart from SMG, is that he alongwith Imran Khan, made
>Pakistan a force to be reckoned with. In the 70s Pakistan had mega-talent
>but they never gelled as a team. After these 'superstars' retired,
>PAkistan cricket achieved enormous victories with very average talent,
>simply because Miandad and Imran made them a "team". They taught the team
>finally how to win and get over the hump. This is the legacy of Javed
>Miandad and Imran Khan, and it is hard to find any other players in the
>history of the game who have impacted their team's futures as much as
>these two have.
Couldn't have said it better. These two were not awed by the
opposition. They taught the other team members that they could win.
Imran lived quite a while in England so it is easy to understand how
he got his confidence. But, Miandad grew up in Karachi and it is
amazing that he did not take any b.s from the English and Australian
players.
A lot of people called him an antagonist. His crime was that he stood
up for himself and his team members. Any time someone from
subcontinent does it, he is called a trouble maker. Case in point, Mr.
Ranatunga. There is column on rediff site, where the writer is
lamenting the fact that no one in Indian team retaliates to
provocation by the opposite team players. Javed always gave back what
he got.
>
>: It is obvious that Miandad's home performance is much better than away
>I think you're trying to hold the 15+ runs difference in Miandad's home
>and away average against him. Miandad's record at home is brilliant and
>should be. On pitches favourable for batting, he should do nothing but
>pile up the runs.
Very true. For the longest time, Pakistani pitches were dead. You
could barely finish one inning in five days. I remember the Faisalabad
pitch. It was a guaranteed draw. This will go a long way in explaining
why Pakistani player averages are higher in Pakistan than outside.
Infact, I am willing to bet that the overall batting average in
Pakistan is higher than outside it. Maybe , Mr. Krishna can use
another one of his weekends to go over the stats.:-)
>Mohsin Ansari
shehzad
Ravi Krishna
Yawar Khawaja (Yawar_...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: MAN WHEREEVER HE WENT. tHE OPPOSING TEAMS MADE SURE HIS STAY ON THE CREASE
: WAS SHORT!!!....and why was that?....because he was the backbone of the
: pakistani batting!!
Oh really , and wherever Gavaskar went , the opposing teams were pretty
generous with him to allow 18 centuries at an avg of 52. And why was that ,
because he was the harmless tailender of the indian batting.
: Actually almost all his LBW'S WERE OUT OF CHEATING, so that pakistan
: wont be able to win, just get miandad out....all is well.
You must be a rocket scientist to come to this conclusion.
: 3. THE amount of runs scored by him is almost identical home and away, his
: avg. at home is blostered by double hundreds against india and nz.
There is a difference of 16 between his home and away. Also keep in mind
that he was never given LBW for 9 straight , a world record by itself. At
the same time he use to get out LBW away almost regularly thanks to his
pronounced square-on stance. Mr Khawaja however you may deny statistical
evidence overwhelmingly point out to suspicion regarding his LBW. Gavaskar ,
Border , Richards all have a better away performance than home. I know that
Gavaskar paid so much money to away umpires that he is still in debt.
That's why Gavaskar even today comes for TV ads so that he can make more money
and pay off his debts. Now the question is if Gavaskar can bribe away umpires,
why not home. Simple,indian umpires unlike indian politicians are corrupt free.
: 4. I think we should leave the discussion on "CHEATING" FOR SOME OTHER
: DAY!!we also remember umpire punjabi, who is the only umpire who signalled
: an out BEFORE an appeal....in pakistan that was shown over and over again,
: also how gavaskar batted 3 times in the 2nd inning in the Banglore
: test!!!....I have a tape of that match.
Here I agree with you. Gavaskar was out once before. Does it mean that you
admit that Pak umpires cheat when it comes to Miandad.
It is same "cheating" which boosted Miandad's avg so much at home. Isn't
that clear.
: 5. By the way very few batsmen excelled against the windies in those days,
: one tour miandad came back due to family problems, the other tour he was
: quite successfull.....
: His greatness was recognized by the GREAT GAVASKAR himself many times....We
: are cricket fans, but you sir are an Indian cricket fan only!!!!
Excuse me sir , any number of post of mine will confirm that I support Imran
Khan more than Kapil , and I am also a fan of Akram. Oh , I forgot to tell
you that both Imran and Akram pay me regularly.
I am a fan of cricket and many great performance by Pakistanis is still in my
mind. Like that of Zaheer and Majid ( my favourite Pak batsman when it comes
to pace attack) in the World Cup SF against WI in 1979 . I admit on that day
Zaheer was the King and he overshadowed Majid also. And what did Miandad do.
He was out FIRST BALL , LBW to Croft. ( sorry Khawaja , couldn't resist)
^^^
Mr Khawaja you do come up with some funny statements , though not
intentionally. Keep it up , it makes good reading in r.s.c.
Ravi Krishna
Ansari Mohsin (man...@orion.it.luc.edu) wrote:
: Miandad's performance against the W.I. is nothing to write home about and
: his average definitely takes a sharp downturn. But his 1988-89 tour was
: absolutely magnificent, comparable to Gavaskar's earlier tours to the
: Carribean. Unfortunately, this series was not on TV, but I remember
: remaining glued to the radio all night following that series. The WI were
Same here Mohsin sahab , I was glued to radio in that series.
: still a formidable force at that time with Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh,
: Benjamin, Patterson among others and the only solidity that was to be
: found in the Pakistan batting was Miandad and a Shoaib who was performing
: far above his abilities. Based on this batting alone, Pakistan came within
: a whisker of clinching that series.
A minor correction. The first test which Pakistan won was against a WI side
which did not have Richards and Marshall. Any one who knows cricket will
admit what WI was in 1988 w/out these two. Miandad's 114 in the first test
was against a very avg WI attack. That was Ambrose' first series and to call
him world class at that stage was a joke.
However Miandad's 102 in the second innings of the second test was excellent,
no doubt about that.
: But Miandad's greatest contribution to Pakistan's cricket, which IMO
: especially sets him apart from SMG, is that he alongwith Imran Khan, made
: Pakistan a force to be reckoned with. In the 70s Pakistan had mega-talent
It was IMRAN to a large extent , and to a much less extent Miandad who
transformed Pak cricket.
: I think you're trying to hold the 15+ runs difference in Miandad's home
: and away average against him. Miandad's record at home is brilliant and
: should be. On pitches favourable for batting, he should do nothing but
: pile up the runs. The more the merrier. I wouldn't mind him having an
: average of 70 and making the home-away differential even greater.
: Now, as far as his away record goes, yes, it's not as high as SMG, but
: it's not altogether pretty bad either. I'm sure most people will agree
: with me that an average of almost 46 away from home is very respectable (I
: don't know off-hand but I'm sure your other hero, Mohinder Amarnath, does
: not have these kind of numbers).
Mohinder Amarnath away record is much more impressive than home.
=============================================================================
M I NO R Avg 50 100 HS Ct St
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Australia 13 19 2 773 45.47 4 2 138 9 0
England 11 19 1 656 36.44 5 0 95 7 0
New Zealand 6 11 0 407 37.00 3 0 70 6 0
Pakistan 18 28 4 1080 45.00 5 4 120 12 0
Sri Lanka 4 6 1 386 77.20 1 2 131 3 0
West Indies 17 30 2 1076 38.42 6 3 117 10 0
Home 32 50 5 1370 30.44 7 2 131 20 0
Away 37 63 5 3008 51.86 17 9 138 27 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 69 113 10 4378 42.50 24 11 138 47 0
As you can see he scored 9 centuries abroad and has an avg of 51 aboard.
: With regards to the LBWs, I will only be fooling myself if I say that
: Miandad should not have been given out LBW more often at home. I'm sure
: that he got the benefit of the doubt whenever possible, and on occasion
: the benefit of the not-so-doubt :-) Now let's flip the equation and look
: at his away LBWs. Out LBW 25 times in 103 innings. Correct me if I'm
: wrong but that's roughly once once
: every 4 times he went out to bat away from home. Don't you think that's a
: little too high? Don't you think that, not all but at least some umpires
: were almost as eager to get rid of this guy as much as the guy's
: opposition? Don't you think that this could have lead to him not getting
: the same benefits from the doubts and not-so-doubts that he was getting at
: home, and in the process contributing to his absolutely horrendous away
: average? Or would you say that, being the very average batsman that he was
: there was something wrong with his technique that lead him to this
: unusually high LBW rate away from home. But then again if he was faltering
: in his technique, how the hell did he even manage the meagre 46 runs that
: he did each time he time he went out to the crease? Maybe, the bowlers
: and the coaches in his days were stupid or something? I don't know, you're
: the genius around here, you tell me!
I can see your sarcasm but before we go further let me ask you :-
(a) Can you give one rational explanation on why he didn't get a LBW for 9
years at home from 1976 to 1985.
(b) Do you really believe in this nonsense that all the world umpires were
against him to give him out LBW.
If you can satisfy this I will try to answer your questions regarding Miandad's
LBW.
< part about Zaheer deleted since there is no dispute >
: As far as Sunil Gavaskar goes, there is no doubt in my mind that he was a
: great batsmen, among the finest in the history of the game and his
: exploits with the bat home and away, especially away, are phenomenal. But
: when comparing him with Miandad, you cannot just look at the away record
: of the two or their exploits in the Windies and conclude that one is
: better than the other. You have to look at the total package. Miandad does
: trail SMG away from home but has a higher average at home and overall.
: Even if away record means more to you than home, as it does to me I might
: add, you cannot totally ignore home records either. But most
: importantly, look at what Miandad and his batting meant to the team and
: how it figured in the final result. Very few people argue that Miandad was
: more of a team player than was Gavaskar and that alone is enough to tilt
: the balance in Miandad's favor.
I think you have not read my posting "the final truth about Miandad" where
you can see that there has been a lot of unnecessary hype about Miandad
playing for the team etc etc. Read it first.
: For many years, Miandad was the only
: person who brought respectability to Pakistan's batting line-up. Once he
: was out cheaply, wickets tumbled in quick succession. In short, he was the
: Pakistan batting. Just imagine the pressure he played under, but he
: still performed. Can we say the same about SMG? I don't think so.
Again read that thread if you want to know more about Miandad.
: Opening a solid batting line-up is not the same as being the part and
: parcel of an average one. But even more importantly, look how the batting
: of the two contributed to the final result. Pakistan, in the 80s
: transformed from being a just a talented side to a winning side with
: average talent. (I don't think anyone can claim Mohsin, Muddasar, Qasim
: Omar, Shoaib, Ramiz, among others to be truly gifted). On the other hand,
: India enjoyed some success at home but little overseas. Certainly, Miandad
: was figuring into the final equation more heavily than Gavaskar.
Miandad happen to play for a side which had much better bowling attack than
India. Giving undue credit to Miandad for all the victories of Pak is wrong.
Read that thread again.
: But to me the greatest quality of javed Miandad and what sets him apart
: from SMG and the rest of his peers is that he made the other players in
: the team play better.
: you may be surprised to find that in the 88-89 Windies and NZ tours every
: time Shoaib Mohd made a good score, Javed Miandad was on the other end.
: And who can forget Inzamam's knocks in the Semi-final and final of the 92
: World Cup. Just rent those tapes and find out who was at the other end.
: This has been the hallmark of Javed's career; he was an inspiration
: to others around him and made them perform better. This was where his
: true greatness lies. And this is why we Pakistanis and a surpringly large
: number of Indians, rate him higher than SMG. And I haven't even started
: talking about their ODI records!!!
A large number of Pakistanis rate SMG higher than anybody else and that
includes Imran Khan himself.
Yes in ODI Miandad beats SMG any day. I never argued that.
rkri...@informix.com
In article <5ev0d5$5...@news.inforamp.net>,
sh...@silcomtech.com wrote:
> Very true. For the longest time, Pakistani pitches were dead. You
> could barely finish one inning in five days. I remember the Faisalabad
> pitch. It was a guaranteed draw. This will go a long way in explaining
> why Pakistani player averages are higher in Pakistan than outside.
> Infact, I am willing to bet that the overall batting average in
> Pakistan is higher than outside it. Maybe , Mr. Krishna can use
> another one of his weekends to go over the stats.:-)
In other words are you saying that a 'great' player like Miandad is good
only for flat and dead Pak pitches. This is not a sign of a great
batsman.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
shehzad haq
rkri...@informix.com wrote:
>In article <5ev0d5$5...@news.inforamp.net>,
> sh...@silcomtech.com wrote:
>> Very true. For the longest time, Pakistani pitches were dead. You
>> could barely finish one inning in five days. I remember the Faisalabad
>> pitch. It was a guaranteed draw. This will go a long way in explaining
>> why Pakistani player averages are higher in Pakistan than outside.
>> Infact, I am willing to bet that the overall batting average in
>> Pakistan is higher than outside it. Maybe , Mr. Krishna can use
>> another one of his weekends to go over the stats.:-)
>In other words are you saying that a 'great' player like Miandad is good
>only for flat and dead Pak pitches. This is not a sign of a great
>batsman.
Now my first inclination was to be rude for trying to put words in my
mouth. But, hey I'll let it go. People listen to what they want to
listen to. In your case, the mind is made up.
Shehzad
Renal Bhalakia
Ansari Mohsin (man...@orion.it.luc.edu) wrote:
: With regards to the LBWs, I will only be fooling myself if I say that
: Miandad should not have been given out LBW more often at home. I'm sure
: that he got the benefit of the doubt whenever possible, and on occasion
: the benefit of the not-so-doubt :-) Now let's flip the equation and look
: at his away LBWs. Out LBW 25 times in 103 innings. Correct me if I'm
: wrong but that's roughly once once
: every 4 times he went out to bat away from home. Don't you think that's a
: little too high? Don't you think that, not all but at least some umpires
: were almost as eager to get rid of this guy as much as the guy's
: opposition? Don't you think that this could have lead to him not getting
Wow! Umpires of 6 test playing countries conspiring to get only one
batsman out LBW. How astonishing!
How about this line of thought,
Miandad was most eager to put his feet between the ball and the
stumps. :-)
(as opposed to the customary placing of that piece of willow)
Renal.
===============================================================================
surkh phUlo.n se mahak uThatI hai.n dil kI rAhe.n
din Dhale yU.N terI AvAz bulAtI hai hame.n
yAd terI kabhii dastak kabhii saragoshI se
raat ke pichhale prahar roz jagaatI hai hame.n
Shahryar - (Umrao Jaan)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-mail : mailto:ccr...@cclabs.missouri.edu, mailto:ccr...@missouri.edu
WWW : http://www.phlab.missouri.edu/~ccrenal
Address : 110 Dorsey St., #205, Columbia, MO 65201.
Phone : 573-449-2892
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe.
- Dr. McCoy, Star Trek - The Voyage Home.
===============================================================================
Yawar Khawaja
In article <5ev342$r...@news.informix.com>, rkri...@informix.com (Ravi
Krishna) wrote:
> Yawar Khawaja (Yawar_...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
> : MAN WHEREEVER HE WENT. tHE OPPOSING TEAMS MADE SURE HIS STAY ON THE CREASE
> : WAS SHORT!!!....and why was that?....because he was the backbone of the
> : pakistani batting!!
>
> Oh really , and wherever Gavaskar went , the opposing teams were pretty
> generous with him to allow 18 centuries at an avg of 52. And why was that ,
> because he was the harmless tailender of the indian batting.
***** OK SINCE YOU STATE IT THIS WAY, Gavaskars batting style abroad was
that of staying on the crease as long as possible, and many a times at the
expense of his relations with his teamates, Miandad was always to the day
he retired was an attacking cricketer, he at many times came in when pak
was down 2/35 or 2/5 or something, he would be the only hope pakistan would
have, taking him out of the game would dash the hopes of any good
score.....RIGHT!!...comprendo!!let me make it easier for you.... TAKE TENDU
OUT, India cannot beat anyone!!!!!!<>>>>>>>>>>
>
> : Actually almost all his LBW'S WERE OUT OF CHEATING, so that pakistan
> : wont be able to win, just get miandad out....all is well.
>
> You must be a rocket scientist to come to this conclusion.
**** You must not be one for sure!!!!!
>
> : 3. THE amount of runs scored by him is almost identical home and away, his
> : avg. at home is blostered by double hundreds against india and nz.
>
> There is a difference of 16 between his home and away. Also keep in mind
> that he was never given LBW for 9 straight , a world record by itself. At
> the same time he use to get out LBW away almost regularly thanks to his
> pronounced square-on stance. Mr Khawaja however you may deny statistical
> evidence overwhelmingly point out to suspicion regarding his LBW. Gavaskar ,
> Border , Richards all have a better away performance than home. I know that
> Gavaskar paid so much money to away umpires that he is still in debt.
> That's why Gavaskar even today comes for TV ads so that he can make more money
> and pay off his debts. Now the question is if Gavaskar can bribe away umpires,
> why not home. Simple,indian umpires unlike indian politicians are corrupt free.
***** How many LBW'S OF GAVASKAR WERE GIVEN BY INDIAN vs. Neutral
UMpires!!!
Could you please write that also, BTW pak was the most vocal supporter of
neutral umpiring India and AUS the least!!!! dID YOU KNOW THAT??? i BET
NOT!!!
>
> : 4. I think we should leave the discussion on "CHEATING" FOR SOME OTHER
> : DAY!!we also remember umpire punjabi, who is the only umpire who signalled
> : an out BEFORE an appeal....in pakistan that was shown over and over again,
> : also how gavaskar batted 3 times in the 2nd inning in the Banglore
> : test!!!....I have a tape of that match.
>
> Here I agree with you. Gavaskar was out once before. Does it mean that you
> admit that Pak umpires cheat when it comes to Miandad.
> It is same "cheating" which boosted Miandad's avg so much at home. Isn't
> that clear.
***** Partisan umpires will CHEAT!!!...There players go to other countries
and get robbed of sure victories...Case in point MIANDAD BOWLING CROFT OUT
1976, GIVEN NO BALL.....S@#$%!!!
> Mr Khawaja you do come up with some funny statements , though not
> intentionally. Keep it up , it makes good reading in r.s.c.
**** Its nice that i do amuse you, but your ridiculous assertion (not
intentionally) thAT ONE OF THE WORLDS GREATEST BATSMEN WAS OVERRATED is a
pretty funny stance in itself>>>>>>
BTW...miandad hit Chris old out of the ground on the first ball of the
match, and ofcourse hit that JACK in Sharjah>>>>>>!!!!!
cheers!
--
__________________________________________________________________________
Ansari Mohsin
Renal Bhalakia (ccr...@cclabs.missouri.edu) wrote:
: Ansari Mohsin (man...@orion.it.luc.edu) wrote:
: : With regards to the LBWs, I will only be fooling myself if I say that
: : Miandad should not have been given out LBW more often at home. I'm sure
: : that he got the benefit of the doubt whenever possible, and on occasion
: : the benefit of the not-so-doubt :-) Now let's flip the equation and look
: : at his away LBWs. Out LBW 25 times in 103 innings. Correct me if I'm
: : wrong but that's roughly once once
: : every 4 times he went out to bat away from home. Don't you think that's a
: : little too high? Don't you think that, not all but at least some umpires
: : were almost as eager to get rid of this guy as much as the guy's
: : opposition? Don't you think that this could have lead to him not getting
: Wow! Umpires of 6 test playing countries conspiring to get only one
: batsman out LBW. How astonishing!
: How about this line of thought,
: Miandad was most eager to put his feet between the ball and the
: stumps. :-)
: (as opposed to the customary placing of that piece of willow)
:
I am only asking you to believe that there were "at least some" umpires
who were less than honest in giving this go out LBW. I may have confused
you, but I certainly do not in any way imply that there was a grand
conspiracy with all or even a large number of umpires involved as you
might have thought. Please be more careful when replying to other people's
posts.
Mohsin Ansari
Ravi Krishna
Yawar Khawaja (Yawar_...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: ***** OK SINCE YOU STATE IT THIS WAY, Gavaskars batting style abroad was
: that of staying on the crease as long as possible, and many a times at the
: expense of his relations with his teamates, Miandad was always to the day
Oh really , did the indian team tell this to you or SMG himself told this.
: he retired was an attacking cricketer, he at many times came in when pak
: was down 2/35 or 2/5 or something, he would be the only hope pakistan would
: have, taking him out of the game would dash the hopes of any good
: score.....RIGHT!!...comprendo!!let me make it easier for you.... TAKE TENDU
: OUT, India cannot beat anyone!!!!!!<>>>>>>>>>>
Very true. But this applies to all the team. Take Akram out and Pak will be
much inferior. You saw a good glimpse of it in WC QF last year.
: ***** How many LBW'S OF GAVASKAR WERE GIVEN BY INDIAN vs. Neutral
: UMpires!!!
: Could you please write that also, BTW pak was the most vocal supporter of
: neutral umpiring India and AUS the least!!!! dID YOU KNOW THAT??? i BET
: NOT!!!
For your information , SMG retired in 1987 and neutral umpires came to India
much later ( I think from 1993 only and after that India has an excellent
record at home). Yes I acknowledge that Pak was the most vocal supporter of
meutral umpires and they got it for the test time in the 1986 series against
WI . Please remember that the neutral umpires came only in the second and
third test of that series , after Pak won the first test w/out neutral
umpires.
: ***** Partisan umpires will CHEAT!!!...There players go to other countries
: and get robbed of sure victories...Case in point MIANDAD BOWLING CROFT OUT
: 1976, GIVEN NO BALL.....S@#$%!!!
Read ! Read. At last Yawar is acknowledging that umpires do have a role.
: **** Its nice that i do amuse you, but your ridiculous assertion (not
: intentionally) thAT ONE OF THE WORLDS GREATEST BATSMEN WAS OVERRATED is a
: pretty funny stance in itself>>>>>>
Unfortunately the statistics which I showed is not funny , in fact damn
serious and pretty defamatory too ( for Miandad).
: BTW...miandad hit Chris old out of the ground on the first ball of the
: match, and ofcourse hit that JACK in Sharjah>>>>>>!!!!!
Oh yeah , who will forget that last ball six.
Mr Khawaja , you have been very decent and did not write any flames (
as India vs Pak , or religion etc). Thank you very much for that.
I am not anti pakistan , it is just I have a grudge against Javed.
A.M.Narayanan
Yawar Khawaja (Yawar_...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: ***** OK SINCE YOU STATE IT THIS WAY, Gavaskars batting style abroad was
: that of staying on the crease as long as possible, and many a times at the
: expense of his relations with his teamates, Miandad was always to the day
: was down 2/35 or 2/5 or something, he would be the only hope pakistan would
: have, taking him out of the game would dash the hopes of any good
: score.....RIGHT!!...comprendo!!let me make it easier for you.... TAKE TENDU
: OUT, India cannot beat anyone!!!!!!<>>>>>>>>>>
Have you seen Dravid's/Ganguly's batting ? Dravid avgs 50+ oustide India.
Tendulkar is a match winner in ODIs not so much in Tests. People
were very happy with SMG's batting abroad.
: ***** How many LBW'S OF GAVASKAR WERE GIVEN BY INDIAN vs. Neutral
: UMpires!!!
10 in India vs 7 abroad. Does that ansewr ur question ?
: Could you please write that also, BTW pak was the most vocal supporter of
: neutral umpiring India and AUS the least!!!! dID YOU KNOW THAT??? i BET
: NOT!!!
Shall I remaind you about Gatting-Shakoor incident ?
Narayanan
Yawar Khawaja
In article <5f39ik$g...@pavan.india.hp.com>,
amn@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE (A.M.Narayanan) wrote:
> Yawar Khawaja (Yawar_...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
> :
> Have you seen Dravid's/Ganguly's batting ? Dravid avgs 50+ oustide India.
> Tendulkar is a match winner in ODIs not so much in Tests. People
> were very happy with SMG's batting abroad.
***** DRAVID / GANGULY...WOW, AND WHAT MAY I ASK IS INDIA'S RECORD IN ANY
TYPE OF MATCHES ABROAD???....THE ENGLISH TOUR RECENTLY JUMPS TO MIND, PLUS
THE SA TOUR......great going guys!!!!!
>
> : ***** How many LBW'S OF GAVASKAR WERE GIVEN BY INDIAN vs. Neutral
> : UMpires!!!
>
> 10 in India vs 7 abroad. Does that ansewr ur question ?
No it doesnt ....how many LBW'S were given by neutral umpires VS. Indian!!!
>
> : Could you please write that also, BTW pak was the most vocal supporter of
> : neutral umpiring India and AUS the least!!!! dID YOU KNOW THAT??? i BET
> : NOT!!!
>
> Shall I remaind you about Gatting-Shakoor incident ?
How does that fit in here, i remeber i was at the stadium.....
>
> Narayanan
Ravi Krishna
A.M.Narayanan (amn@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE) wrote:
: Yawar Khawaja (Yawar_...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: : UMpires!!!
: 10 in India vs 7 abroad. Does that ansewr ur question ?
Not only that , all 10 by Indian umpires as there was no neutral umpires
during Gavaskar's time. Oh I forgot to tell , all rival teams paid to Indian
umpires ( that too in dollars) to 'take care' of SMG and SMG use to return
the favor by bribing all away umpires.
Narayanan Ammanur
Yawar Khawaja (Yawar_...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: In article <5f39ik$g...@pavan.india.hp.com>,
: amn@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE (A.M.Narayanan) wrote:
: > Yawar Khawaja (Yawar_...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: > :
: > Have you seen Dravid's/Ganguly's batting ? Dravid avgs 50+ oustide India.
: > Tendulkar is a match winner in ODIs not so much in Tests. People
: > were very happy with SMG's batting abroad.
: ***** DRAVID / GANGULY...WOW, AND WHAT MAY I ASK IS INDIA'S RECORD IN ANY
: TYPE OF MATCHES ABROAD???....THE ENGLISH TOUR RECENTLY JUMPS TO MIND, PLUS
: THE SA TOUR......great going guys!!!!!
Compare Dravid/Ganguly's scores with Miandad's early series abroad esp.
against WI and Aus.
Narayanan