The Romance of Bombay cricket
Cricketislife!
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/2002/02/10/stories/2002021000210200.htm
'This unresolved contradiction in the book comes out in the
contrasting portraits of two of the city's cricketing icons, Ravi
Shastri and Sachin Tendulkar. Ravi Shastri is a non-Mumbaikar,
typifying "the vitality, vigour and character of the melting pot".
Waking up at 5:30 a.m. taking the suburban bus to Azad maidan for
practice and then taking another train to King's Circle to go to
school, Shastri seems to have had no mentors, no gurus which is
probably why he was never made captain of the National side (the only
time he did so — in the Madras Test in 1987-88 — India actually won!).
Always "ruthlessly competitive", Shastri exemplifies the modern temper
that you should "go for the jugular, whether bowling or batting". Like
Gavaskar, who always promoted "the players' interest" (read self-
interest) Shastri followed the un-Indian maxim of "khunnas,
exemplifing the spirit of no quarter given and none asked for'
(p.137). True he may have played Shane Warne better than anybody else
(Bill Lawry) "but the selectors, despite his having all the necessary
leadership qualities never gave him the job" of captaincy. He paid the
price for his "attitude"'.
Sachin Tendulkar is in every way the polar opposite of Shastri,
although Bamzai, trapped in his admiration of the "guts and glory"
syndrome does not see this'
Review by TGV
---
CiL
'Right now, Tendulkar is a great batsman who doesn't scare the
opposition. It's as if the fact that he sees the ball so early has
begun to work against him: he has almost too much time to play the
ball and he uses it to think and fret instead of using it to attack
the bowling. There is a tense pre-meditation to his play these days,
which is different from the calculated aggression we used to see
earlier. Viv Richards said after Tendulkar's failures on the tour of
the Caribbean that Tendulkar didn't seem to be enjoying his cricket.
Perhaps he is right. Perhaps the master should learn from his protégé:
perhaps Tendulkar could take a leaf out of Virender Sehwag's carefree
book. He could stop being Atlas and just go with the flow. '
Mukul Kesavan, Sep' 2002
Ram Jaane
> http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/2002/02/10/stories/2002021000210200.htm
>
> 'This unresolved contradiction in the book comes out in the
> contrasting portraits of two of the city's cricketing icons, Ravi
> Shastri and Sachin Tendulkar. Ravi Shastri is a non-Mumbaikar,
What do you mean? Ravi Shastri is every inch a Mumbaikar.
The author simply dosen't know what being a Mumbaikar means.
> typifying "the vitality, vigour and character of the melting pot".
> Waking up at 5:30 a.m. taking the suburban bus to Azad maidan for
> practice and then taking another train to King's Circle to go to
> school, Shastri seems to have had no mentors, no gurus which is
> probably why he was never made captain of the National side
Bull. Dungarpur and his chela Azhar, ring a bell?
(the only
> time he did so ? in the Madras Test in 1987-88 ? India actually won!).
> Always "ruthlessly competitive", Shastri exemplifies the modern temper
> that you should "go for the jugular, whether bowling or batting". Like
> Gavaskar, who always promoted "the players' interest" (read self-
> interest) Shastri followed the un-Indian maxim of "khunnas,
> exemplifing the spirit of no quarter given and none asked for'
> (p.137). True he may have played Shane Warne better than anybody else
Wow. Is this author for real? Is he a double of Anil?
> (Bill Lawry) "but the selectors, despite his having all the necessary
> leadership qualities never gave him the job" of captaincy. He paid the
> price for his "attitude"'.
>
> Sachin Tendulkar is in every way the polar opposite of Shastri,
Man, now its clear that this author has no basis for any arguement
and is totally ignorant.
> although Bamzai, trapped in his admiration of the "guts and glory"
> syndrome does not see this'
>
> Review by TGV
>
> ---
>
>
> CiL
>
> 'Right now, Tendulkar is a great batsman who doesn't scare the
> opposition. It's as if the fact that he sees the ball so early has
> begun to work against him: he has almost too much time to play the
> ball and he uses it to think and fret instead of using it to attack
> the bowling. There is a tense pre-meditation to his play these days,
> which is different from the calculated aggression we used to see
> earlier. Viv Richards said after Tendulkar's failures on the tour of
> the Caribbean that Tendulkar didn't seem to be enjoying his cricket.
> Perhaps he is right. Perhaps the master should learn from his protégé:
> perhaps Tendulkar could take a leaf out of Virender Sehwag's carefree
> book. He could stop being Atlas and just go with the flow. '
ROTFL. Did you post this article for all of us to have a good
laugh at the author?
> Mukul Kesavan, Sep' 2002
>
> http://tinyurl.com/glpd
Knowing Ravi Shastri's sharp tounge, he will give a strong
lashing to this author if he were to read this chutiya article.
-RJ-
Raghu Jetley
> Ravi Shastri is a non-Mumbaikar,
Why the hell is Ravi Shastri not a Bombayite ?
What is he ? Scottish ?
Who wrote this ? Devdas ?
Raghu Jetley
"True he(Ravi Shastri) may have played Shane Warne better than anybody else
(Bill Lawry)"
Shastri played Warne in only one Test Match, IIRC when he made his double
century.
That was Warne's debut match.
"(Ravi Shastri)Waking up at 5:30 a.m. taking the suburban bus to Azad maidan
for practice and then
taking another train to King's Circle to go to school".
Anybody know Shastri studied in ? Was it Don Bosco ?
Uday Rajan
>
> "(Ravi Shastri)Waking up at 5:30 a.m. taking the suburban bus to Azad maidan
> for practice and then
> taking another train to King's Circle to go to school".
>
> Anybody know Shastri studied in ? Was it Don Bosco ?
Yes, Don Bosco.
Raghu Jetley
Any other cricketers who schooled at Don Bosco's ?
Can we compile a list of Bombay cricketer's schools/ colleges ?
Schools
--------
Don Bosco - Ravi Shastri
Shardashram - Tendulkar, Amre, Pandit, Agarkar, Kambli
College
--------
St Xaviers - SMG, Ashok Mankad
Podar - Shastri, Manjrekar, Engineer
Ruia - Patil, Pandit, Rajput, Raju Kulkarni
Kirti - Tendulkar
Nikhil Deo
> Perhaps he is right. Perhaps the master should learn from his protégé:
> perhaps Tendulkar could take a leaf out of Virender Sehwag's carefree
> book. He could stop being Atlas and just go with the flow. '
>
> Mukul Kesavan, Sep' 2002
>
> http://tinyurl.com/glpd
Where has Mukul Kesavan been hiding all these years? Such a cricketing
acumen should not go unrewarded. Maybe he has a paypal account. We must
contribute. He should be the advisor to John Wright. I respect his cricket
IQ and the ability to hit the nail on the head.
Given a chance this guy might suggest letting Sehwag bat twice and let
Tendulkar observe as a ball-boy how aggressive cricket is to be played.
--
[ I have not seen a cricket player who is so modest while not batting AND
bats in such an arrogant fashion. I feel the latter part works against
Sachin at times e.g. the Chennai test., Natwest final shot selection etc. I
am not complaining, that is how he is.]
Amol Cricketwallah
> Cricketislife! wrote:
> > Ravi Shastri is a non-Mumbaikar,
>
> Why the hell is Ravi Shastri not a Bombayite ?
Typical reporter error in reviewing. In the original book Sandeep Bamzai
had referred to Shastri as a "non-Marathi" and thus a sort of outsider
in the Marathi-dominated cricket of Bombay - and the reviewer chose to
turn that into "non-Mumbaikar" here.
> What is he ? Scottish ?
No, Scottish has not produced any good cricketers in Bombay IIRC - at
least none that I heard of when I attended as a kid. Though I believe
Rohan Gavaskar went there at least for a while! Shastri was not a
Scottish-man - he was a Don-Bosco-ite.
Sadiq [ who remembers Scottish's Father Gameliel (sp) ] Yusuf
Amol Cricketwallah
> Raghu Jetley wrote:
> > Cricketislife! wrote:
>
>
> "True he(Ravi Shastri) may have played Shane Warne better than anybody else
> (Bill Lawry)"
>
> Shastri played Warne in only one Test Match, IIRC when he made his double
> century.
> That was Warne's debut match.
>
Yep, thats basically what Lawry was going on. Shastri was gone from
international cricket within a year or so anyway. His only real chance
at Warne, he played him very well - and got a double century. Nobody
else averages 200 against Warne after all ;-)
>
> "(Ravi Shastri)Waking up at 5:30 a.m. taking the suburban bus to Azad maidan
> for practice and then
> taking another train to King's Circle to go to school".
>
> Anybody know Shastri studied in ? Was it Don Bosco ?
Yep, Shastri was captain of Don Bosco. Led them to a title win too,
IIRC - which was quite unusual for Don Bosco in those days (or any
days I suppose :-) . Also went to Podar - the uncharitable always
said that Shastri had only leg-side shots, because Podar had a short
leg-side boundary.
Sadiq [ great Podar-Mithibai games in those days ] Yusuf
Ram Jaane
> Schools
> --------
> Don Bosco - Ravi Shastri
> Shardashram - Tendulkar, Amre, Pandit, Agarkar, Kambli
>
> College
> --------
> St Xaviers - SMG, Ashok Mankad
> Podar - Shastri, Manjrekar, Engineer
> Ruia - Patil, Pandit, Rajput, Raju Kulkarni
> Kirti - Tendulkar
Add Agarkar to Ruia. BTW, what is Kirti college? Did
SRT go to college at all? Or was it for his plus two?
Sunil Shetty was playing schools cricket with Shastri
at Don Bosco and was pretty good too but then chose
acti(o)ng later as a profession. This was admitted by
Shastri himself during one of his commentaries.
BTW, the author is hinting that Shastri is originally
from Mangalore. Being from Chennai, he dosen't understand
the cosmopolitan and assimilating nature of other cities.
Especially since Shastri is probably a 2nd or 3rd generation
Mumbaikar.
-RJ-
Amol Cricketwallah
>
> 'This unresolved contradiction in the book comes out in the
What "unresolved contradiction" is this guy talking about, anyway?
> contrasting portraits of two of the city's cricketing icons, Ravi
> Shastri and Sachin Tendulkar. Ravi Shastri is a non-Mumbaikar,
> typifying "the vitality, vigour and character of the melting pot".
> Waking up at 5:30 a.m. taking the suburban bus to Azad maidan for
> practice and then taking another train to King's Circle to go to
> school, Shastri seems to have had no mentors, no gurus which is
> probably why he was never made captain of the National side (the only
> time he did so ? in the Madras Test in 1987-88 ? India actually won!).
> Always "ruthlessly competitive", Shastri exemplifies the modern temper
> that you should "go for the jugular, whether bowling or batting". Like
First, Iam not that sure at all that Shastri had no mentors or
anything. When he came into the test team Gavaskar was captain - and
Gavaskar treated him quite well (this was very early for RJS anyway,
he made his international debut very early indeed - he was India U19
captain and was a big prospect out of that level, and was promoted
fairly quickly when Doshi was injured in Australia). RJS started out
at #11 with the bat, for instance, and after a few gritty down-the-order
performances Gavaskar promoted him all the way to #6 and #7 on a couple
of occasions for the home series against England - and RJS responded
with very good innings when promoted, too, which set up his career.
> Gavaskar, who always promoted "the players' interest" (read self-
> interest)
Um hum. "Players interest" means "self interest"? Really? So what
Shastri is doing nowadays, representing the players and taking on the
Indian Board sometimes to enable players to have a greater say - is
that "self interest" too, now that Shastri is not a player anymore?
Stupid comment - but probably not unexpected, in a review like this :-)
> Shastri followed the un-Indian maxim of "khunnas,
> exemplifing the spirit of no quarter given and none asked for'
Why is this an un-Indian maxim, anyway? :-) Well, maybe it is - but
it sure aint an un-Bombay maxim :-)
Anyway, the reviewer is combining two different things from the
book (and from the Bombay cricket ethos) IMHO. There is the thing
called "khadoos-ness" - which is probably what he means to say
above. This is a very common word in Bombay cricket, which Bombay
cricketers often take pride in and try to live up to - sort of means
to be tough, play hard, much more like the "dont give no quarter
and dont ask for none" type IMHO.
And then there is "khunnas-ness" - which Ive always taken to be
much more a sort of vindictiveness-type thing almost, sort of a
"if you get us, we'll get you back" attitude, rather than just the
"no quarter given and none asked for" mentioned above. This happens
on the field too with Bombay cricket, and fairly often at that.
The example of "Khunnas" given in this book is as follows:
Bombay play Rajasthan, Bombay batting and killing the Rajasthan
bowlers as usual, sending them on a leather hunt (espeically Dilip
Sardesai out in the middle). So Kailash Gattani, the Rajasthan
bowler, "mankaded" Sardsai, running him out as he backedup, without
giving him a warning. Sardesai was obviously very pissed off about
it (he said even to the book author so many years later that "Gattani
could never get me out, that was the only way he could have got me
out" :-) Bombay's innings progressed, and Wadekar said he would
declare at 450 - and when the score reached about 450/4, Sardesai
promptly locked Wadekar in the toilet :-) And he kept him locked
there all the way until Bombay reached almost 600 - making sure that
Gattani and the rest of the Rajasthan players had to stay slogging
out in the hot sun for that much longer, in revenge for mankading
him. Now that *is* an example of the Bombay "khunnas", rather than the
"khadoosness" IMHO.
> (p.137). True he may have played Shane Warne better than anybody else
> (Bill Lawry) "but the selectors, despite his having all the necessary
> leadership qualities never gave him the job" of captaincy. He paid the
> price for his "attitude"'.
>
> Sachin Tendulkar is in every way the polar opposite of Shastri,
> although Bamzai, trapped in his admiration of the "guts and glory"
> syndrome does not see this'
>
How is Tendulkar the "polar opposite" of Shastri in this regard,
again? Shastri is listed above as one who played hard, never gave
a quarter, played with an attitude, all in the review above - is
this all supposed to be a "polar opposite" of Tendulkar, then? :-)
Where they might actually be polar opposites is that Tendulkar was
incredibly blessed in terms of talent, while Shastri was one who
wasnt - but that apparently isnt what the reviewer is saying here.
So what is he saying, exactly, that he sees but Bamzai doesnt?
Sadiq [ how old is this review, anyway ? ] Yusuf
Uday Rajan
>
> First, Iam not that sure at all that Shastri had no mentors or
> anything. When he came into the test team Gavaskar was captain - and
> Gavaskar treated him quite well (this was very early for RJS anyway,
> he made his international debut very early indeed - he was India U19
> captain and was a big prospect out of that level, and was promoted
> fairly quickly when Doshi was injured in Australia). RJS started out
> at #11 with the bat, for instance, and after a few gritty down-the-order
> performances Gavaskar promoted him all the way to #6 and #7 on a couple
> of occasions for the home series against England - and RJS responded
> with very good innings when promoted, too, which set up his career.
In fact, Gavaskar was instrumental in picking Shastri for
the Bombay Ranji team as well. Bombay had a quarter-final at
Bihar in the 1979-80 season (hard to imagine, but Gavaskar
found time to play some Ranji matches in a domestic season
in which India played 13 Tests); Gavaskar saw Shastri bowl
at the nets (he was in the so-called probables for the
season, but not in the squad of 14 or whatever), and
insisted on taking him and playing him in the quarter-final.
Shastri did well enough to be retained in the Bombay team
for the remaining two matches, and capped off the season
with a 6/64 in the second innings of the final, at Delhi.
There's a real sense in which Gavaskar was an early mentor
for Shastri. The widespread speculation, of course, is that
it was Gavaskar who asked for Shastri to be flown out to NZ
to replace the injured Doshi. That is, it was no coincidence
that Gavaskar was the captain when Shastri made his Test
debut.
Shastri's batting was basically an unknown quantity to the
selectors at that stage, so I'm not surprised that he
started out batting low in the order. He had been more of a
batting all-rounder at the school and college levels, but
very few of the selectors and senior players had actually
seen him play in a match (either bat or bowl) at the time he
was picked for the Bombay team. And after just 3 first-class
matches in his first season, there was no real reason to
promote him up the order in Tests in that NZ series.
Raghu Jetley
>> What is he ? Scottish ?
>
> No, Scottish has not produced any good cricketers in Bombay IIRC - at
> least none that I heard of when I attended as a kid.
Was Pratibha Sinha your classmate ?
Bombay Scottish is more famous for filmi people than cricketers isn't it
?
Aamir Khan, Hrithik Roshan etc etc.
Anyway, I am sure, you know that wasn't the Scottish I meant.
Was Devdas kicked out of Bombay Scottish anytime ? That would
explain his obsession for the Scots.
Cricketislife!
Cricketwallah) wrote:>
>Sadiq [ how old is this review, anyway ? ] Yusuf
The link I provided as the date, Sunday, Feb 10, 2002
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/2002/02/10/stories/2002021000210200.htm
Do click to see a lovely photograph of a young SMG with Ajit Wadekar.
TGV writes
'for me, the real heart of the book is contained in a sepia-toned
photograph (between pp.28-29) first published in Ajit Wadekar's
autobiography My Cricketing Years (Vikas, 1973). A young Gavaskar is
seen walking beside his captain, Wadekar, in a London drizzle under
the shade of an umbrella. Gavaskar is seen in an open shirt (even his
vest is faintly visible behind the wrinkled and unironed shirt) with a
jacket casually thrown over it. He is wearing a wrist watch and a ring
in his left hand ring finger and smiling, head tilted towards his much
taller captain. Wadekar, meanwhile, looks extremely dapper with his
right hand tucked inside his trouser pocket while his free left hand
is holding aloft the umbrella. Dressed in a three-piece suit, he is
wearing a white shirt and his tie is held in place by a tie-clip. He
is looking confidently outwards and is clearly on top of the world
(India won that series against England for the first time ever).
Gavaskar's fortunes were on the rise and this was the start of a
record-breaking career. Yet, here, he still looks a tyro, with his
wrinkled jacket (two uneven and inexpensive pens are visible in his
pocket) and his left hand is crossed respectfully across his chest. On
both the wrists are talismanic amulets to ward off bad luck. (In later
years he is to become a votary of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, the Puttaparti
saint). The story of the passage from "G. Sunil" to the legendary
"Sunil Gavaskar" who made 34 Test hundreds is told in the opening
chapter, "Boys from Chikalwadi". It is interesting to read that
Gavaskar's early idols were the fast bowlers, Ray Lindwall and Wesley
Hall! '
Abhimanyu
> > Why the hell is Ravi Shastri not a Bombayite ?
> > What is he ? Scottish ?
> > Who wrote this ? Devdas ?
>Anyway, I am sure, you know that wasn't the Scottish I meant.
>Was Devdas kicked out of Bombay Scottish anytime ? That would
>explain his obsession for the Scots.
You think you are a smart alec by mentioning Devdas and Scottish
in a totally irrelavant thread and that people will fall for it.
Asshole, why don't you stop your naradmuni tactics for a change and
do some real soul-searching for a change yourself especially since
you constantly remind others of their lack of integrity in posts
(ref: thread Gondas). And you think that you having lived in some
ghati area(i can make that from your post) like Govandi or
Bhandup have the sole right to talk about Mumbai and its players. If
there were no Gujaratis including Parsis in Mumbai, there would have
been no Bombay today for you to talk so arrogantly and vainly today of.
Jai Garvi Gujarat!
Cheers,
-Abhi
ps: btw do you really know what Devdas was trying to imply through
his posts on Scots? Never mind, asslicking people like you with no
self-respect you will never get it!
Jayen
<snip>
> BTW, the author is hinting that Shastri is originally
> from Mangalore. Being from Chennai, he dosen't understand
> the cosmopolitan and assimilating nature of other cities.
Is Liverpool one of these "other cities"?
Anyway,
"by Mukul Kesavan (a novelist and essayist based in Delhi)"
Regards,
Jayen
Ram Jaane
> Is Liverpool one of these "other cities"?
I was talking about Indian cities like Bangalore and Delhi.
I don't know about Liverpool, but London is definitely one.
Don't know why you asked the question anyway?
> "by Mukul Kesavan (a novelist and essayist based in Delhi)"
That makes him a greater fool, dosen't it?
-RJ-
Ramakrishnan G
"Raghu Jetley" wrote
> Uday Rajan wrote:
>
> Any other cricketers who schooled at Don Bosco's ?
>
> Can we compile a list of Bombay cricketer's schools/ colleges ?
>
> Schools
> --------
> Don Bosco - Ravi Shastri
> Shardashram - Tendulkar, Amre, Pandit, Agarkar, Kambli
>
I dont know about these guys but I do know that Saurav Ganguly went to St.
Xavier's, Calcutta and Nikhil Haldipur went to St. Lawrence, also in
Calcutta.
Cricketislife!
wrote:
But if it was the reviewist of the bombay book we are talking about,
then it is TGV living in Bangalore.
A very nice tribute to TGV , who died recently
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/2002/04/07/stories/2002040700290400.htm
Raghu Sakleshpur
> Cricketislife! wrote:
> > Ravi Shastri is a non-Mumbaikar,
>
> Why the hell is Ravi Shastri not a Bombayite ?
He is as much a mumbaikar, as Dravid is a bonda I guess..
> What is he ? Scottish ?
> Who wrote this ? Devdas ?
-raghu
Amol Cricketwallah
>
> <snip>
>
> > BTW, the author is hinting that Shastri is originally
> > from Mangalore. Being from Chennai, he dosen't understand
> > the cosmopolitan and assimilating nature of other cities.
>
> Is Liverpool one of these "other cities"?
>
This is exactly what is being hinted at, though - in fact, more than
just hinted at. The final chapter of the book is titled "The Outsiders",
and Shastri is the first one mentioned. "Ravi Shastri is genetically
a non-Mumbaikar, but in every regard he typifies the vitality, vigour
and character of the melting pot".
What is being referred to in this regard *is* his heritage - that his
family might originally have been from Mangalore. And so he is
"genetically not a Mumbaikar" because, of course, Mumbai players
nowadays are mostly Marathi (but only now of course, thusly Mumbai -
because Merchant, LP Jai, Modi etc in the old days were not Marathi
either, but were all listed as part of the old Bombay). I happened to
disagree with the characterization when I first read it anyway - Shastri
was born and bred in Bombay, he played (and won) the Giles Shield (U15)
for Don Bosco, and then went on to Podar; he was as Bombay as they
come, IMHO. You can only take this "genetically non Mumbai" so far -
I mean, what if Jaffer happens to do something at international level
in the future for example? Would he be seen as genetically non-Mumbai
as well? And if he *is* non-Mumbai - what the heck is he? :-) I mean,
he played his schools cricket in Bombay, his college cricket in Bombay,
his club cricket in Bombay, his office cricket in Bombay, his Ranji
cricket in Bombay - what else could he be but a proper Bombayite, no
matter his family's place of origin?
The other player mentioned as non-Mumbai is Gulabrai Ramchand, a former
India captain. Now he is a different case entirely IMHO - Ramchand was
a Sindhi from Karachi originally. He moved out from Karachi in 1946,
and went to Ahmedabad (on invitation from Jasu Patel - he stayed
with Patel's family and completed his graduation there). But he never
played for Gujarat, for he was a cricketer and after graduation he
moved to Bombay and played first club cricket there, and then for
Bombay in the Ranjis, and then for India in test cricket. Now he can
easily be seen as an outsider IMHO - for he basically didnt move to Bombay
till after graduation, basically.
The others mentioned only in passing are people like Umrigrar, Contractor
etc - merely mentioned in the chapter, not listed as "outsiders". But
even this makes sense relatively - both had strong links to Gujarat
anyway (and Contractor, while from Bombay, actually played his Ranji
Trophy cricket for Gujarat).
There is little mention of Kuruvilla in this book - but he would be an
example IMHO. He was sometimes mentioned as "non Mumbaikar" too, which
is also IMHO total nonsense - he too was born and bred a Bombayite,
and could really be nothing else (even if his heritage was originally
from outside Bombay).
This is going to be the case for more and more players as time
progresses, obviously. MR Srinivas, who plays for TN, is a real
Bombayite (he went to school and college in Bombay, and played club
cricket in Bombay too - only moved to TN because he had a better shot
at cracking the team) - as much as "marathis" Sanjay Bangar or Amit
Pagnis or Kiran Powar who play for other teams. Bombay's lead U19 bowler
is currently Rajesh Verma - a northie name, but as Bombayite as they
come obviously. Bombay's former U19 keeper was Raju Ramanujan - a
southie name, but also as Bombay as they come. And supposedly one
of the better U15 pace prospects (who won the U15 "Race for Pace"
competition sponsored by Mid-Day) is named Buddhadev Mangaldas -
not sure where *that* name is from, but he's pretty much a
Bombayite too :-) You cannot judge any of these guys to be
"outsiders" (as they seem to do with Shastri) just based on their
family origin.
> Anyway,
>
> "by Mukul Kesavan (a novelist and essayist based in Delhi)"
>
Kesavan has nothing to do with any of this - he didnt write the book
or the review to the book, but is present in this thread only because
he is part of CIL's sig :-)
The book is written by Sandeep Bamzai - who is an alumnus of St
Columba's in Delhi, then graduated from the University of Calcutta,
and worked for The Statesman, The Indian Express, The Illustrated
Weekly and The Sunday Observer. Then he apparently wrote his first
book - "Gavaskar and Tendulkar: Shaping Indian Cricket's Destiny".
Then he worked with Business India, and finally moved to The
Hindustan Times (and then wrote this book). Bamzai, as you can see,
is not a Bombayite in the true sense of the word either - but he is
maybe an adopted one, because he has lived and worked in the city for
large stretches of time in the past 10-15 years (and, as everyone
knows, while only some of us are lucky enough to be Born Bombayite,
many can Achieve Bombayiteness by working hard, living right, and
reaching the appropriate stratospheric level of "coolness" :-)
Sadiq [ who will try to resist using his old favourite sig here :-) ] Yusuf
Amol Cricketwallah
> Amol Cricketwallah wrote:
> >
> > First, Iam not that sure at all that Shastri had no mentors or
> > anything. When he came into the test team Gavaskar was captain - and
> > Gavaskar treated him quite well (this was very early for RJS anyway,
> > he made his international debut very early indeed - he was India U19
> > captain and was a big prospect out of that level, and was promoted
> > fairly quickly when Doshi was injured in Australia). RJS started out
> > at #11 with the bat, for instance, and after a few gritty down-the-order
> > performances Gavaskar promoted him all the way to #6 and #7 on a couple
> > of occasions for the home series against England - and RJS responded
> > with very good innings when promoted, too, which set up his career.
>
> In fact, Gavaskar was instrumental in picking Shastri for
> the Bombay Ranji team as well. Bombay had a quarter-final at
> Bihar in the 1979-80 season (hard to imagine, but Gavaskar
> found time to play some Ranji matches in a domestic season
> in which India played 13 Tests); Gavaskar saw Shastri bowl
> at the nets (he was in the so-called probables for the
> season, but not in the squad of 14 or whatever), and
> insisted on taking him and playing him in the quarter-final.
> Shastri did well enough to be retained in the Bombay team
> for the remaining two matches, and capped off the season
> with a 6/64 in the second innings of the final, at Delhi.
>
Yes - but Shastri was far from an unknown quantity in these days. He
was a good enough U19 player to be India U19 captain, and clearly seen
as the big young prospect in Bombay for a while already (he used to
be a quite awesome LAS prospect a couple of years earlier IIRC, but
then he grew about 6 inches from what Ive heard and lost his loop :-)
Shastri did well for Bombay - but not *that* well. In that, in the
QFs itself he had 3/18 in 17 overs, terrific figures. But he was not
as good a bowler as Shivalkar, even in these days (in the semis, for
instance, on a spinning track in Haryana prepared for Goel and
Talwar, Shastri had match-figures of 3/43 in 25 overs - a pretty
good performance. But Bombay won because Shivalkar had 9/57 in
36 overs for the match, destroying Haryana with 5/27 and 4/30 in
the 2 innings, Haryana 68 allout and 111 allout). Shastri did have
6/61 in the 2nd innings of the finals against Delhi, but it was
in a losing cause (Bombay lost by 240 runs, it wasnt that close).
Overall for the season Shastri had 16 wickets in 3 matches at an
average of 23.50 - a terrific season. But Shivalkar had 38 wickets
in 7 matches at 16.5. - even better, by a ways.
> There's a real sense in which Gavaskar was an early mentor
> for Shastri. The widespread speculation, of course, is that
> it was Gavaskar who asked for Shastri to be flown out to NZ
> to replace the injured Doshi. That is, it was no coincidence
> that Gavaskar was the captain when Shastri made his Test
> debut.
>
Yes - but it wasnt just Gavaskar IMHO, the selectors, as usual, were
also looking for younger players who could serve the country for a
long time, not just the best players (who might be old). Its like
how Murali Karthik and Rajesh Sanghvi got picked as LAS a couple of
years ago, while someone like Utpal Chatterjee was probably a little
better even if old. (The most glaring one is probably about 5/6 years
ago, when India tried Ashish Kapoor and Noel David and other dross
at offspinner, while Kanwaljeet Singh was, by miles, the best offie
in the country - and might actually have been the best spinner in
the country too! But Kanwaljeet was about 36 by then and the selectors
felt he couldnt play for long - instead he kept going in the Ranjis
till about 41 IIRC and stayed good thruout). If the selectors had
been looking for just the best LAS in 1980, they could have and
probably should have gone with Shivalkar or Rajinder Goel even by
then - but they were looking for more than just that.
And, as I said, Shastri was not an unknown quantity at all - in fact
he was seen thru the country as a huge future prospect. He had
captained India U19 to SL early in the year and done very well indeed,
and after the Ranjis ended he captained India U19 again on a tour of
England in the summer - and again was a standout performer.
That led into the start of the 80/81 season in the Ranjis. In the league
stage Shastri had 11 wickets at 12.90.
This was when the call came from NZ for a replacement LAS. Of course
SMG probably had a lot to do with it - he had seen Shastri bowl in
person, and had captained him when he took 6/61 in the Ranji finals
against Delhi etc. But the pick only could go thru, IMHO, because
Shastri *was* known to selectors etc - from his U19 exploits and
captaincy, and then from the Ranji games spread over parts of 2
seasons now.
> Shastri's batting was basically an unknown quantity to the
> selectors at that stage, so I'm not surprised that he
> started out batting low in the order. He had been more of a
> batting all-rounder at the school and college levels, but
> very few of the selectors and senior players had actually
> seen him play in a match (either bat or bowl) at the time he
> was picked for the Bombay team. And after just 3 first-class
> matches in his first season, there was no real reason to
> promote him up the order in Tests in that NZ series.
Iam not sure he was *totally* unknown - not to the Gavaskar's and
Vengsarkar's of the world. In those days they still played Kanga's
etc, and knew of players quite a bit, even the younger ones. The
national selectors may not have known much (but even they knew a
bit, because Shastri was a prominent name for the national U19
team, being its captain and all).
For example, when Shastri made his debut for Bombay in the Ranji
Trophy, he was already slotted in at #7 right in the first match.
He occasionally moved down to #8, was about a 7/8. This might
not sound like much - but he batted ahead of, say, Karsan Ghavri -
who was considered a bit of an allrounder-type at test level
already. He batted ahead of Zulfiqar Parkar - who was seen as a
national contender wicketkeeping prospect (many felt he was second
only to Kiri in those days - his batting was never seen as great, but
it wasnt terrible either). So, even when he was debuting for Bombay,
he was not really seen as a #11 type.
It is, of course, a leap from going #7 for Bombay to #7 for India
a year later - but SMG did see him do well at #11 against England
etc. But also, IMHO, SMG *knew* from the Bombay days that he wasnt
useless as a batsman, even if he hadnt neccesarily seen him score
runs with his own eyes - because, after all, SMG himself had slotted
Shastri in ahead of Ghavri in the batting order a time or two in the
Ranjis the previous year.
Sadiq [ Shastri was partially Tendulkar's "mentor", too ] Yusuf
Amol Cricketwallah
> Uday Rajan wrote:
> > Raghu Jetley wrote:
> >>
> >> "(Ravi Shastri)Waking up at 5:30 a.m. taking the suburban bus to
> >> Azad maidan for practice and then
> >> taking another train to King's Circle to go to school".
> >>
> >> Anybody know Shastri studied in ? Was it Don Bosco ?
> >
> > Yes, Don Bosco.
>
> Any other cricketers who schooled at Don Bosco's ?
>
> Can we compile a list of Bombay cricketer's schools/ colleges ?
>
> Schools
> --------
> Don Bosco - Ravi Shastri
> Shardashram - Tendulkar, Amre, Pandit, Agarkar, Kambli
>
Shardashram has plenty of them - tons and tons now. (I remember getting
a chance to chat with Amol Muzumdar a couple of years ago, and when
Ramesh Powar's name came up I mentioned "he's one of your Shardashram
boys too, no?" - and he grinned and said "everyone is a Shardashram
boy nowadays" :-) And he was almost right, too - pretty much all
the batting prospects a couple of years ago were Shadrashram guys.
Tendulkar, Kambli, Amol, Powar, Agarkar, Amol Rane, Vinayak Mane etc
were all Shardashram guys in the final XI in those days). In the old
days Shardashram also produced Balwinder Sandhu, Ravi Kulkarni,
Lalchand Rajput, Ramnath Parkar etc. But then it is a fallacy to
list them all as "Shardashram" - because it is really 2 different
schools, Shardashram-English and Shardashram-Marathi, and they play
as 2 separate teams (they met each other in the finals for 3/4
years in a row in the mid-90s, in the Giles IIRC). Tendulkar, Kambli,
Amol, Agarkar, Mane etc are all Shardashram-English boys.
The other big school in the slightly older days was King George,
later called Raja Shivaji - it produced Vengsarkar in the 70s, and
Sanjay Manjrekar in the 90s. Sandeep Patil went to Balmohan
Vidyamandir, another famous school (Amit Pagnis also went to Balmohan,
many years later). Current player Bhavin Thakkar went to IES English
along with MR Srinivas (who bowled against Thakkar for TN in the Ranji
Finals a few months ago :-)
Decades ago it used to be Bharda - first Vijay Merchant, then Polly
Umrigar etc. Xaviers school produced Gavaskar and Milind Rege at
the same time - but were unable to win the Giles or the Harris
despite both those guys playing together for them.
Of the current lot, Jaffer IIRC first went to Bandra Urdu and then
to Anjuman. Iqbal Khan was another Anjuman guy. Sairaj Bahutule
went to St Xavier's - in fact, he was one of the bowlers who got
murdered by Tendulkar/Kambli in the semis of the Harris Shield when
they put on 664 (Bahutule bowled about 30 overs for nearly 180
runs IIRC :-)
> College
> --------
> St Xaviers - SMG, Ashok Mankad
Umrigar went to Xaviers in his day too, IIRC.
> Podar - Shastri, Manjrekar, Engineer
> Ruia - Patil, Pandit, Rajput, Raju Kulkarni
> Kirti - Tendulkar
I wouldnt even consider people like Tendulkar in the college list -
its pointless unless you actually played for college IMHO. The key
was that in the old days the college games were terrific - they
were huge battles with excellent players on both sides, some of
them on the fringes of Ranjis etc (Vengsarkar went straight from
Podar to the Indian team - because he was still a college player
when he was picked for Bombay in the Irani Trophy, and hit that
amazing ton with 7 sixes against Bedi and Prasanna at Indore).
In the really old days, everyone played college cricket. Madhav
Apte, Subhash Gupte etc went to Ruia while Baloo Gupte went to
Elphinstone (in those days Elphi was coached by Vinoo Mankad!)
Sardesai when he came along went to Wilson.
In the 90s some junior college battles were good - but not much
beyond that, really. Amol Muzumdar, Amit Pagnis etc all went to
Mithibai, which turned into a very solid rival of Podar's (Rohan
Gavaskar went to Podar at the same time, and played against
these guys). Kuruvilla went to Vivekanand and Ramrao Adik (after
going to OLPS for school). But senior college cricket in general
has been on the decline thru the country - University tournaments
used to be *very* big in the 70s, at such a high level that a
Combined University team was even selected to play against the
touring international sides very often. But those days are long
past - now most good cricketers dont go to university anymore,
and university cricket is consequently of a very poor level.
Sadiq [ even the Kanga League aint what it used to be ] Yusuf
Amol Cricketwallah
> On 30 Jul 2003 20:49:54 -0700, cricke...@hotmail.com (Amol
> Cricketwallah) wrote:>
> >Sadiq [ how old is this review, anyway ? ] Yusuf
>
>
> The link I provided as the date, Sunday, Feb 10, 2002
>
> http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mag/2002/02/10/stories/2002021000210200.htm
>
> Do click to see a lovely photograph of a young SMG with Ajit Wadekar.
> TGV writes
>
Have a full-page version of it already :-)
> the shade of an umbrella. Gavaskar is seen in an open shirt (even his
> vest is faintly visible behind the wrinkled and unironed shirt) with a
> jacket casually thrown over it. He is wearing a wrist watch and a ring
I must say, I can see the wrinkled and unironed shirt a little bit -
but the reviewer must have very good eyes indeed if he can see his
vest behind it, cos I sure cant :-) (Well, to me it looks like the
shirt flap opening a little bit, rather than a vest - who knows :-)
> in his left hand ring finger and smiling, head tilted towards his much
> taller captain. Wadekar, meanwhile, looks extremely dapper with his
> right hand tucked inside his trouser pocket while his free left hand
> is holding aloft the umbrella. Dressed in a three-piece suit, he is
> wearing a white shirt and his tie is held in place by a tie-clip. He
> is looking confidently outwards and is clearly on top of the world
> (India won that series against England for the first time ever).
> Gavaskar's fortunes were on the rise and this was the start of a
> record-breaking career. Yet, here, he still looks a tyro, with his
> wrinkled jacket (two uneven and inexpensive pens are visible in his
> pocket) and his left hand is crossed respectfully across his chest. On
> both the wrists are talismanic amulets to ward off bad luck. (In later
Heh :-) To me the left hand across his chest was actually an attempt
to hold the jacket closed, so as to avoid getting the rain all over
himself, rather than as a particularly respectful gesture - but to
each his own I suppose :-)
> years he is to become a votary of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, the Puttaparti
> saint). The story of the passage from "G. Sunil" to the legendary
> "Sunil Gavaskar" who made 34 Test hundreds is told in the opening
> chapter, "Boys from Chikalwadi". It is interesting to read that
> Gavaskar's early idols were the fast bowlers, Ray Lindwall and Wesley
> Hall! '
Actually, along with Ray Lindwall and Wesley Hall, his idol was also
Dara Singh ;-)
He did first appear as G.Sunil in the newspaper - first ever mention
was apparently in the Free Press Journal in 1963, when G Sunil scored
30* for St Xavier's batting at #10 in a Harris Shield match (his
buddy Milind Rege had batted at #9).
Sadiq [ it *is* a nice pic, yes :-) ] Yusuf
Raghu Jetley
> The other big school in the slightly older days was King George,
> later called Raja Shivaji - it produced Vengsarkar in the 70s, and
> Sanjay Manjrekar in the 90s. Sandeep Patil went to Balmohan
> Vidyamandir, another famous school (Amit Pagnis also went to Balmohan,
> many years later). Current player Bhavin Thakkar went to IES English
> along with MR Srinivas (who bowled against Thakkar for TN in the Ranji
> Finals a few months ago :-)
Isn't IES the same as King George/Raja Shivaji ?
This is the one which is right next door to Ruia/Podar in Hindu Colony.
Raghu Jetley
> Kuruvilla went to Vivekanand and Ramrao Adik (after
> going to OLPS for school).
OLPS is another school more famous for film stars rather than
cricketers - Armaan Kohli, Anil Kapoor, some (or all) of the Kapoor
guys.
Amol Cricketwallah
> Amol Cricketwallah wrote:
> >> What is he ? Scottish ?
> >
> > No, Scottish has not produced any good cricketers in Bombay IIRC - at
> > least none that I heard of when I attended as a kid.
>
> Was Pratibha Sinha your classmate ?
Left Scottish very early, dont really remember too many classmates
(or even any, actually).
> Bombay Scottish is more famous for filmi people than cricketers isn't it
> ?
> Aamir Khan, Hrithik Roshan etc etc.
>
Well, the sons of film-type people out in the Bandra area always
pick Scottish as their school - so its sort of natural that they
would produce a few film people too (since it seems to be a bit
of a hereditary business as well). But none of those ICSE-type
schools produce many cricket players period - Scottish, Cats-n-johns,
Campion, BIS, none have produced a single cricketer in memory I
dont think. Mary's was the one which had decent cricket players
at least, and was always competitive in the Giles and Harris in
the old days - but even they havent really produced more than 1 or
2 Ranji level guys, since their guys seem to veer away from cricket
after their school days (as far as I can recall, only Zubin Barucha
was a Ranji player from Mary's in the past few years - and Mary's,
in the Tendulkar days at least, was a solid Giles and Harris semis
and finals level team, and even beat Sachin's Shardashram in the
Giles Final once).
At least a few years ago, pretty much all the cricket players
were coming from the same handful of schools - Shardashram English,
Shardashram Marathi, Raja Shivaji, Balmohan Vidyamandir, IES English,
Anjuman-i-islam ... and thats about it, IIRC.
> Anyway, I am sure, you know that wasn't the Scottish I meant.
No. But Scottish in general has a very strong relationship to Bombay
cricket anyway. The last time Bombay won the Ranji Trophy (not this
year, the time before this year, 2/3 years ago), the celebration
party for the title triumph with all the players was held on the
evening of the last day at ... the Scottish Arms, the pub in Mahim.
And it was supposedly a completely wonderful time, and didnt break up
till the wee hours of the morning. It was led by Tendulkar and
Kambli and Kuruvilla and the rest (Kuru had just played his last
day of fc cricket), and supposedly all the Ranji players and fringe
guys from the previous 3/4 years showed up (including people like
Jatin Paranjpe and Salil Ankola, much-loved teammates who had stepped
away a year or two earlier), and all were part of a pretty legendary
amazing party, from what I hear. So the Scottish (and their famous
products) have served Bombay cricket well - in more ways than one.
Sadiq [ who remembers following Vishy in Pak while at Scottish ] Yusuf
Uday Rajan
>
> And, as I said, Shastri was not an unknown quantity at all - in fact
> he was seen thru the country as a huge future prospect. He had
> captained India U19 to SL early in the year and done very well indeed,
> and after the Ranjis ended he captained India U19 again on a tour of
> England in the summer - and again was a standout performer.
Remember that this was long before the days of U-19 World
Cups, long before U-19 standouts were put on a fast track to
the national team (a la Kaif, Yuvraj), and, in fact, in the
days when U-19 cricket didn't even register as a blip on the
national radar. There was a huge gulf between U-19 cricket
and the real stuff, so being U-19 captain didn't really
matter to anyone. Shastri had played just a handful of f.c.
matches before he was picked to go to NZ, and, on talent, he
was no Tendulkar. There was no reason at all to shove him
into the national side. Except that the captain specifically
asked for him (a captain without whom he wouldn't have made
it to the Ranji side in the first place, leave alone the
national side), and the selectors didn't really have an
alternative in mind. I'd be very surprised if the national
selectors then paid any attention at all to the U-19
results, and most of the selectors would not have seen
Shastri play (in a season with so many Tests, they weren't
paying much attention to random matches such as Ranji
finals).
Net_Head
I think they are one and the same. At various times it has been
referred to by different names but the colloquial name has mostly been
King George.
Btw, even with King George, Ruia, Poddar & Cricket on the grounds, the
most interesting institution on that road was Mani's. The best idlis
money can buy.
Cheers,
Net_head
Raghu Jetley
Also, best chutney money can buy. Also one of the very few places
in Bombay which give unlimited Chutney refills.
Shripathi Kamath
"Net_Head" <net_...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message
news:59d223a8.03080...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
> Btw, even with King George, Ruia, Poddar & Cricket on the grounds, the
> most interesting institution on that road was Mani's. The best idlis
> money can buy.
>
A prototypical "greasy spoons". The food is tasty as you say, but your
resolve to ignore some of the hygiene aspects, is taxed. I am still not
sure whether the dark material lodged in the crevices of some utensils was
part of that which accumulated over the years or originally engraved.
--
Shripathi Kamath
Repeat customer and survivor
cricfan
"xss" <xs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7749858b.03080...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Isn't IES the same as King George/Raja Shivaji ?
> > This is the one which is right next door to Ruia/Podar in Hindu Colony.
>
> That's right. Indian Education Society is the management.
> King George became Raja Shivaji when it went native. Maybe
> Raja Shivaji is one of the schools run by the IES. I
> know for sure that IES English is the same as Raja Shivaji.
>
> s.
No idea about the current situation, but in the 1980's, the Marathi medium
part of that school was called Raja Shivaji and the English medium portion
was called King George. I used to go there to write the draconian tests
conducted by Agrawal classes in those days and distinctly recall the two
signboards.
Cheers
Arun
Michael Creevey
"Shripathi Kamath" <shripat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vild3ge...@corp.supernews.com...
> A prototypical "greasy spoons". The food is tasty as you say, but your
> resolve to ignore some of the hygiene aspects, is taxed. I am still not
> sure whether the dark material lodged in the crevices of some utensils was
> part of that which accumulated over the years or originally engraved.
>
>
> --
> Shripathi Kamath
>
> Repeat customer and survivor
>
>
Euurghhh!
Regards,
Michael Creevey
(maha boring fellow)