Kapil Dev : A cricket oddity
Rob Malpass
Ok, this is the third in a series of questions which have puzzled me for a
while.
How did Kapil Dev ever get 430 odd wickets? I've not seen a great deal of
footage on him. He must have been excellent because it's not as if any idiot
gets into the 400 club.
When I saw him first (1990), he was a medium pacer whom Gooch slapped all over
the ground (like Gooch did to everyone else that Summer). I'm not knocking
Kapil but can someone tell me just how he managed to get so many wickets
considering most of his cricket would have been played on presumably slow
dead Indian pitches?
Was he quick prior to 1990?
Cheers
Rob
john bejnarowicz
Well, if you hadn't seen him prior to 1990 you certainly missed the best
of his career. If you had caught him in the 1992 Australian tour where
he regained his old form (with the ball atleast) then you saw a
performance which he maintained consistently starting from his debut in
1978-79 till round about 1988-89. He was never a genuine fast bowler but
certainly nippy and possessed a great outswinger during his peak. When
Gooch slapped him around in 1990 it was a Gooch at his career peak and
Kapil had become just an ordinary medium pacer. Just get into Cricinfo
and look at his bowling performances against Pakistan in 1979, West
Indies in 1983 etc. to see what he did at his peak. There are
innumberable test matches that he gave splendid performances in and
single-handedly won for India. There was a stretch of time where the
only way India could win test matches was if he bowled well. You also
have to keep things in perspective since he got his 434 wickets in 125
odd tests. Certainly not in the class of Hadlee or Lillee but I would
say maintained his stature as a top 10 bowler in the world from a little
after his debut to about 1988-89. Some years you could make an argument
for him being in the top 5. Considering the top 10 would be heavily
populated by the West Indian quicks that is saying something. During his
first 300 wickets he was by all means a world class bowler. The last 100
plus wickets were kind of a grind. However, keep one important thing in
mind that he did not miss a test match during his career due to injury.
That is downright amazing. He busted his knees but bowled in every test
match. Considering the amount of test matches played in the 80's it is
not all that surprising. Curtly Ambrose has got his 300 wickets in 10
years of tests. Gibbs who at one point held the world record with 307
took something like 20 years to get them.
Sankara
sahibzada rafay khan
In article <33A99F...@agecon.purdue.edu>
john bejnarowicz <bejna...@agecon.purdue.edu> wrote:
> ob Malpass wrote:
>>
>> Ok, this is the third in a series of questions which have puzzled me for a
>> while.
>>
>> How did Kapil Dev ever get 430 odd wickets? I've not seen a great deal of
>> footage on him. He must have been excellent because it's not as if any idiot
>> gets into the 400 club.
>>
>> When I saw him first (1990), he was a medium pacer whom Gooch slapped all over
>> the ground (like Gooch did to everyone else that Summer). I'm not knocking
>> Kapil but can someone tell me just how he managed to get so many wickets
>> considering most of his cricket would have been played on presumably slow
>> dead Indian pitches?
>>
>> Was he quick prior to 1990?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Rob
Kapil was not quick but quite nippy of the wicket and had a great outswinger (anyone
can bowl inswingers). Sadly Kapil was used more like a stock bolwer at times
than a strike bowler because there wasn't anyone else.
I don't know if Kapil would have taken more than 434 wickets if he had more
class bowlers in team ...... or lasted longer ......
Though I always thought he was treated badly by Gavaskar. Maybe some
of the Indians guys could comment ........................I think a better
captain (or less insecure one) could have gotten more out of Kapil. Especially
his batting ......... he was definetly better than Imran and i wished he was sent
higher in the batting order.
sahibzada rafay khan
## life ambition to climb Nanga Parbat (east face)without oxygen ##
address: Big Beaver, #420
Chatanooga, MD
telephone: 714-3724-361
j sreedhar
R...@getiton.demon.co.uk (Rob Malpass) writes:
>Ok, this is the third in a series of questions which have puzzled me for a
>while.
>How did Kapil Dev ever get 430 odd wickets? I've not seen a great deal of
>footage on him. He must have been excellent because it's not as if any idiot
>gets into the 400 club.
not to mention the 5000 run club. :-)
He was a GREAT BOWLER during his first 5 years or so.
He made his debut when he was 19 yrs 283 days old,
and established all sorts of records...among others,
I think he was the youngest to get to 100 test wickets.
Can someone confirm? His DOB is january 6th, 1959, and
Bowling statistics (Tests)
as on Feb 26, 1994
Kapil's bowling milestones
Wicket Test Reachedon Victim Opp Venue
1st 1 21 oct. 1978 Sadiq Mohd. Pak Faisalabad
50th 16 7 oct. 1979 Bruce Yardley Aus Kanpur
100th 25 31 jan. 1980 Taslim Arif Pak Calcutta
150th 39 10 jun. 1982 Chris Tavare Eng Lord's
200th 50 15 mar. 1983 Andy Roberts WI Port-of-Spain
250th 65 28 nov. 1984 Allan Lamb Eng Bombay
300th 83 7 jan. 1987 Rum. Ratnayake SL Cuttack
350th 100 16 nov. 1989 Javed Miandad Pak Karachi
400th 115 3 feb. 1992 Mark Taylor Aus Perth
431st 129 30 jan. 1994 Don Anurasiri SL Bangalore
432nd 130 8 feb. 1994 Hash.Tilakratne SL Ahmedabad
So he got his 100th Test Wicket at the age of 21 yrs, 25 days.
I got this from the following homepage devoted to him...
http://www.cstp.umkc.edu/personal/rganesh/kapildev/kapildev.html
It has other general info and pictures of him.
For other statistics, check out HowzStat.
He had a major knee injury in the mid-80s, and had to undergo an
operation. He was never the same bowler after that, although his
batting wasn't affected as much. But his bowling just nose-dived.
So much so that, just prior to his retirement, it was painfully
clear to many Indians that he was being retained only so that he
could get to Hadlee's record. (Plus, his continued selection and
the Indian think-tank's policy of playing 3 spinners in home-series
was keeping young Javagal Srinath out of the team. But that is
another story.)
Kapil had a lovely outswinger when he started out in test cricket.
Kris Srikkanth rates him as possessing the deadliest outswinger...and
Kapil got whole buckets of wickets in tests using his outswinger.
Srikkanth said, "I have faced quicks from all countries, but I still rate
Kapil's outswinger as most lethal."
Later, too much one-day cricket affected his outswinger. He seldom used it in
one-dayers, preferring to cramp the batsmen for room by bowling straight
or inswingers. This is what Gavaskar says about him (btw, do
read his article in
http://www.cricket.org:8002/link_to_database/PLAYERS/IND
/K/KAPIL_DEV_N_06001568/ARTICLES/KAPIL_DEV_N-PROFILE_GAVASKAR
from which I quote the following...
"His outswinger then, was as the celebrated Indian all-rounder
Bapu Nadkarni would say "a banana outswinger". While Bapuji used
this term to describe Truemans bowling, it was equally true of
Kapil. Fortunately he did not heed all those who told him that
he must mix his outswinger with the inswinger and how he should
bowl the inswinger. When one is getting so many wickets with the
outswinger it is foolish to try and do something different. In
fact, in later years, due to the proliferation of one day crick-
et, Kapil concentrated on the inswinger and almost lost his
outswinger. The outswinger is easy to tap away for runs, in lim-
ited overs cricket, for there are hardly any slip fielders for
the edge, while the inswinger, if bowled well, cramps the batsman
and tucks him up. With the cricket schedule being tight, and the
one-day gmaes being mixed up with the Tests, it was difficult for
Kapil to keep switching the modes of bowling.
Then came the tour of Australia in 1991-92. The early tour
first-class games gave Kapil Dev the chance to get back his old
rhythm. And, when the Tests started the lethal outswinger was
back in place. The strong Australian batting, which was supposed
to make mincemeat of the Indian bowling, suddenly found that a
recharged Kapil and the wily Prabhakar were more than a handful."
He remained a very economical ODI bowler till the very end.
He was never a liability in the Indian OD side.
ONE-DAY INTERNATIONALS
(career)
M I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct St
Batting 225 198 39 3783 175* 23.79 1 14 71 -
O M R W Ave Best 4w 5w SR Econ
Bowling 1867 235 6945 253 27.45 5-43 3 1 44.2 3.71
For comparison, after about 1992 overs, Wasim Akram's Econ is 3.77. Warne's
is 4.02 after 710 overs. Curtley Ambrose has 3.47 after 1293 overs.
One drawback of Kapil's (test) bowling was he didn't use the bouncer
much...the batsmen could come on to the front foot against him in
a pre-meditated fashion and get away with it. I suppose this was due
to his not being very fast and also because of having to toil on dead
Indian tracks (often as the only strike bowler).
An interesting feature of his test bowling is that, in terms of
averages, he has best figures against Australia, Srilanka and WI,
in that order. In batting, again in terms of
averages, he has best figures against England, RSA and Srilanka.
>When I saw him first (1990), he was a medium pacer whom Gooch slapped all over
>the ground (like Gooch did to everyone else that Summer). I'm not knocking
>Kapil but can someone tell me just how he managed to get so many wickets
>considering most of his cricket would have been played on presumably slow
>dead Indian pitches?
The irony is that he has a better test average (by a long way) inside India
than outside! I just can't explain this.
M Balls Mdns Runs Wkt Avg 5w/i 10w/m S/R Econ Best
Home 65 12211 467 5803 219 26.49 11 2 55.8 2.85 3/ 35
Away 66 15529 593 7064 215 32.85 12 0 72.2 2.73 9/ 83
Maybe home conditions and crowd support used to fire him up!
Could be some element of umpiring bias too. I don't know.
Type Home Away TOTAL
Bowled 46 41 87
LBW 70 42 112
Caught 58 73 131
Caught Behind 39 56 95
Caught & Bowled 4 2 6
>Was he quick prior to 1990?
Maybe from 78 till 84 or so. Certainly not after that.
>Cheers
>Rob
Above all, he was a natural cricketer with a very big heart. Also he
is the only member of the 5000 runs + 400 wickets club!!!
Sreedhar
shr...@imap1.asu.edu
sahibzada rafay khan (ra...@sprynet.com) wrote:
: In article <33A99F...@agecon.purdue.edu>
: john bejnarowicz <bejna...@agecon.purdue.edu> wrote:
: > ob Malpass wrote:
: >>
: >> Ok, this is the third in a series of questions which have puzzled me for a
: >> while.
: >>
: >> How did Kapil Dev ever get 430 odd wickets? I've not seen a great deal of
: >> footage on him. He must have been excellent because it's not as if any idiot
: >> gets into the 400 club.
Exactly.Trace his career from his debut in '77-78 to '83, through the tests
India played, by accessing cricinfo.You will be simplay amazed by his performance.
Moreover, he was a spirited captain who led underdogs and unknowns India to
a WEorld Cup title in 1983 when no other team was being able to defeat the Windies.
(who were in top form then with the 4 mega-quicks)
: >>
: >> When I saw him first (1990), he was a medium pacer whom Gooch slapped all over
: >> the ground (like Gooch did to everyone else that Summer). I'm not knocking
: >> Kapil but can someone tell me just how he managed to get so many wickets
: >> considering most of his cricket would have been played on presumably slow
: >> dead Indian pitches?
By 1990, he had lost much of his enthusiasm as a bowler(he was 32 then).But he regained
his form back in 1992 in Australia.Border had a psychological problem against him when
Kapil always used to get him through his golden outswinger to be caught behind.
: Kapil was not quick but quite nippy of the wicket and had a great outswinger (anyone
: can bowl inswingers). Sadly Kapil was used more like a stock bolwer at times
: than a strike bowler because there wasn't anyone else.
Yep, we hardly had any good support bowler for Kapil till prabhakar rediscovered himself
in the '89 tour of Pakistan.Kapil retired after Srinath became settled in the team.
: Though I always thought he was treated badly by Gavaskar. Maybe some
Yep.Remember the Calcautta test where Kapil was dropped for a Test.Indian
fans blame this unfortunate episode solely on Gavaskar.Kapil hasn't missed a
test match apart from this during his entire career.To me personally, he is
the most fit cricketer in the entire history.A reason for dropping him could
have been since Gavaskar wanted to be the only Indian cricketer to play more than
100 tests without being dropped once.
: of the Indians guys could comment ........................I think a better
: captain (or less insecure one) could have gotten more out of Kapil.
As far as utilising Kapil is concerned, i will give the credit to Gavaskar.
He had the guts to use Kapil well when India depended heavily on spin
those days.Kapil was encouraged well to perform by Gavaskar.The trouble started
when Kapil became hugely popular after winning the World Cup.
Especially
: his batting ......... he was definetly better than Imran and i wished he was sent
: higher in the batting order.
Tell this to Ravi Krishna who also posts crap in this ng saying Imran was
a better bat than Kapil.
Shridhar.
Ravi Krishna
In article <5oco5s$6dg$1...@juliana.sprynet.com>, ra...@sprynet.com says...
>Though I always thought he was treated badly by Gavaskar. Maybe some
>of the Indians guys could comment ........................I think a better
>captain (or less insecure one) could have gotten more out of Kapil. Especially
>his batting ......... he was definetly better than Imran and i wished he was
>sent
>higher in the batting order.
I am extremely disappointed with your arguments. If you insist that Gavaskar
treated Kapil badly and hence Kapil could not give his best, then try to look
into the performance of Kapil under his own captaincy. It was the same as under
SMG's captaincy or probably even worse. Going by your argument Kapil should
have performed much better under his own captaincy than that of Gavaskar.
Ravi Krishna ( expecting Kapil fans to post their usual excuses)
Ravi Krishna
shankara , an unabashed Kapil fan wrote:-
> Just get into Cricinfo
>and look at his bowling performances against Pakistan in 1979, West
>Indies in 1983 etc. to see what he did at his peak. There are
>innumberable test matches that he gave splendid performances in and
>single-handedly won for India.
Saw cricinfo and it told me that from Dec 1981 to Nov 1984 , India played 30
odd test matches without a victory , and at a time when Kapil was supposedly
at his best , giving splendid performances.
Ravi Krishna ( expecting Kapil fans to post their usual excuses).
Shirish Sane
Rob Malpass wrote:
<Snip...>
Hmmm...It is indeed surprising to find Kapil ending up with 434 wickets.
IMHO this stupendous fete was achieved due to following factors:
1)Kapil was fitness fanatic. He used to work hard on his fitness every
day and was NEVER out of the team due to injury and this was a main
factor in accomplishing the enviable record of 434 wickets.
2)He used to generate tremendous pace in the early days of his career (I
distinctly remember him trapping Bruce Yardley of Australia in the
Kanpur Test, 1979-80 series, leg-before-wicket with sheer pace.) As he
matured later on, he realized that its a controlled movement of the red
cherry that is more productive than just pace. That not only made him
more dangerous bowler but also helped him to bowl longer spells without
being prone to injury.
3)India never had any other bowler at the other end with simillar
potential or stature during his tenure and thus take away 'his' share
of wickets :-)
4)Some of the credit must go to BCCI (Board of Control for Cricket in
India) for the selectors decided to pursue with him for a couple of
series when he was clearly showing signs of ageing and weariness in the
twilight of his career (as a Bowler). His batting however was still as
good as it was during his prime (That makes me wonder, if Robin Singh
can be a regular member of Indian One Day team, wouldn't it be a good
idea to pursue Kapil to make a comeback to challenge his position?)
5)Last but most important factor was his motivation. He was highly
patrioatic and motivated player who always sought more wickets. In the
famous Melbourne Test, 1981 when he was badly bruised and should have
been out of action in the second inning, he decided to take the
painkillers and bowl himself with full fire and zest and the rest, as
they say, is a history.
-Shirish
A.M.Narayanan
sahibzada rafay khan (ra...@sprynet.com) wrote:
: Kapil was not quick but quite nippy of the wicket and had a great outswinger (anyone
: can bowl inswingers). Sadly Kapil was used more like a stock bolwer at times
: than a strike bowler because there wasn't anyone else.
: I don't know if Kapil would have taken more than 434 wickets if he had more
: class bowlers in team ...... or lasted longer ......
True Kapil wasn't so good after '84. After '84 Kapil had 5 wkts
only 5 times. Till '83 he was very good and very nippy.
: Though I always thought he was treated badly by Gavaskar. Maybe some
He got dropped in a match against England in '84 for indiscipline.
Kapil feels SMG was responsible(so do most Indians and media). SMG
says he was not responsible for that. But during his prime
SMG used him well.
: of the Indians guys could comment ........................I think a better
: captain (or less insecure one) could have gotten more out of Kapil. Especially
: his batting ......... he was definetly better than Imran and i wished he was sent
: higher in the batting order.
He was more talented with the bat than Imran. But Imran did better batting.
Most important when Imran lost his bowling he improved his batting,
but Kapil didn't.
Narayanan
--
Standard Disclaimers Hold
Karthik Vaidyanathan
shr...@imap1.asu.edu writes:
>his form back in 1992 in Australia.Border had a psychological problem against him when
>Kapil always used to get him through his golden outswinger to be caught behind.
I think you meant Bowled or Lbw. Kapil's "golden" outswinger was for the right handed bat. But you're right. Either Border was "psyched out" by Kapil & Botham or he had a technical flaw cos he always used to get bowled thro' the gate. I still remember ( one of the few things to cherish in that 0-4 drubbing we got!)the Channel 9 highlights of the Melbourne test match with Kapil on bowling to Border. Bill Lawry just rolled the clip of the previous test's dismissal of Border by Kapil. The very next ball, Ka
pil got Lawry a carbon copy of the clip by knocking Allan Border's stumps.
I think one can say Border was Botham & Kapil's bunny; both having got his scalp more than ten times ( I think!)
< Stuff deleted>
> Especially
>: his batting ......... he was definetly better than Imran and i wished he was sent
>: higher in the batting order.
>Tell this to Ravi Krishna who also posts crap in this ng saying Imran was
>a better bat than Kapil.
>Shridhar.
Imran was much more reliable than Kapil when the situation demanded. I would say that Kapil had more strokes in his repertoire but lacked the temparement or discipline that Imran had. Imran was probably less talented than Botham or Kapil in the batting department but played well within himself and used his shrewd cricketing brain. Kapil, OTOH, did numerous silly things like trying to repeat a six of Eddie Hemmings th the WC 87 SF.
As far as allrounders go, I think (& statistics prove) that Imran Khan is the best allrounder. But at the peak of one's abilities, I will pick Ian Botham during the (81?) ashes.
My 2 Paise worth
Karthik
--
KArthik Vaidyanathan
A.M.Narayanan
Ravi Krishna (r_kr...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: shankara , an unabashed Kapil fan wrote:-
: > Just get into Cricinfo
: >and look at his bowling performances against Pakistan in 1979, West
: >Indies in 1983 etc. to see what he did at his peak. There are
: >innumberable test matches that he gave splendid performances in and
: >single-handedly won for India.
: Saw cricinfo and it told me that from Dec 1981 to Nov 1984 , India played 30
: odd test matches without a victory , and at a time when Kapil was supposedly
: at his best , giving splendid performances.
This is BULLSHIT. Kapil was the only good bowler. What was SMG doing
in all those Test matches. Oh yeah matches aren't won by batsman. So make
a scapegoat out ur bowlers even if ur batsmen do badly as it happened
against WI in '83. Have you forgotten Kanpur Test when openers
failed to open the innings. Or the Calcutta Test or Madras Test or
second innings at Ahemdabad.
Why is that Akram has not been able to win
even one Test match against India ?
Look what Roberts did before he had a good support bowler. Look
what Akram did before he had a good support bowler. Till Imran(who was past
his prime) was a support bowler Akram was not so good. When Waqar came in
you see the difference. Definitely Akram didn't add any weapom to his
armoury after '90. Besides Kapil did his part well till '83. Ur logic
surprises me. When I point out SMG was captain during '82-83 series
against Pak you say Pak umpires ensured that their team never got out below
400. Don't you think Kapil suffered because of bad umpiring or was it
only SMG's captaincy that suffered ? But accdg to you Kapil did well only
he got 8-85. Had the umpiring been proper who knows 7 for 220 might have
become 7 for 150. If someone says SMG is drawmaster because of England
series in 81-82, u blame on dead wkts. But that dead wkts is not
applicable for Kapil is it ? No one claims that Kapil was at his peak
till Nov. 84. He was on his peak till Dec '83. ur Kapil bashing
seems to have no limits. Why was that NZ didn't do well even though
Hadlee(arguably the greatest bowler along with Marshall) was bowling ?
So Hadlee is CRAP is it ?
Sankara
Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
> shankara , an unabashed Kapil fan wrote:-
>
> > Just get into Cricinfo
> >and look at his bowling performances against Pakistan in 1979, West
> >Indies in 1983 etc. to see what he did at his peak. There are
> >innumberable test matches that he gave splendid performances in and
> >single-handedly won for India.
>
> Saw cricinfo and it told me that from Dec 1981 to Nov 1984 , India played 30
> odd test matches without a victory , and at a time when Kapil was supposedly
> at his best , giving splendid performances.
>
Here we go again. Just check the test matches India won from Kapil's
debut to about 1988 and see how many test matches we won where Kapil
was the significant contributor. Probably near 75% or more. Also there
were other tests where he stood glorious in defeat while the other
minions stood and admired.
He started playing in 1977-78. The series against Pakistan we won at
home. Kapil won the Madras test with over 100 runs and 10 wickets in the
match I think. That clinched the series. Gavaskar helped. But cannot
imagine any other Indian bowler bowling Pakistan out. Then we went to
Australia and drew the series 1-1. Kapil had a 5 wkt haul in the first
test in a losing effort. In the third test with Australia needing 123
to win guess who bowled them out with a 5 wkt haul! On painkillers no
less. Then we beat England at home in the first test in Bombay. Again
Kapil had a 5 wicket in one of the innings. Then we lost to England in
England. I don't have to remind anyone of Kapil's performance in the
lost test. 5 wickets in the first innings, 3 in the second. 41 runs in
the 1st inning (second behind Gavaskar's 48) and a breathtaking 87 in
the second. We stayed in the World Cup singlehandedly due to Kapil with
his timely heroics against Zimbabwe and crucial catch of Richards in the
final. Even though we lost the series against West Indies at home Kapil
had a 30+ wickets haul. If only Indian paper tiger batsmen stayed around
we might have clinched the Ahmedabad test where Kapil got 9 wkts in one
innings. We won our first overseas series since the mid-70s in England
in 85-86. Check Kapil's bowling in the second innings of the first test
where he knocked off the England top order with an incisive 4 wkt
spell.He was the captain too I think.
Enough already. My main point is look through the competitive tests
India played (exclude the dull draws. You would find one constant
...Kapil Dev. Of no other Indian can the same be said. Almost all of
India's greatest moments involved Kapil in a significant way (including
the tied test).
Sankara
Sankara Narayanan
>
> Ravi Krishna wrote:
> > Saw cricinfo and it told me that from Dec 1981 to Nov 1984 , India played 30
> > odd test matches without a victory , and at a time when Kapil was supposedly
> > at his best , giving splendid performances.
> >
> > Ravi Krishna ( expecting Kapil fans to post their usual excuses).
Selective as ever.....! Why conveniently black out the period from
debut to Dec 1981?! Only a guy who really, really hates Kapil (and I
have a sneaky feeling really, really worships Gavaskar, maybe someone
else more used to reading this guy's posts could verify) would employ
such machinations which are as imbecilic as calling Kapil's fielding
useless.If I black out the period from 1977 to 1981 ashes series I can
show that Botham was a worse all rounder than Simon O'Donnell. Now that
wouldn't be fair to Botham, would it? If I black out the period from
1971 to 1979 England tour I can show that Gavaskar was barely among the
world's top 5 batsmen.
Sankara (who believes the Lord put Ravi Krishna on earth just to annoy
other people)
5 batsmen.
Ravi Krishna
In article <33AD8A...@vm.cc.purdue.edu>, Sankara says...
>Here we go again. Just check the test matches India won from Kapil's
>debut to about 1988 and see how many test matches we won where Kapil
< rest of pathetic glorification of Kapil deleted >
The number of tests which Kapil supposedly won for India is far too less
to deserve any credit. Please go and check how many matches India won due to
Kapil in the 130 odd test he played. I don't want to start it all over again.
Also check how many macthes Imran,Hadlee won for their country. If Kapil
is called great then what adjective you will use for Imran , Hadlee.
-- Ravi Krishna
Ravi Krishna
In article <33ADEC...@vm.cc.purdue.edu>, Sankara says...
>Selective as ever.....! Why conveniently black out the period from
>debut to Dec 1981?!
Even the period from 1978 to 1981 , India did not win as many matches as
you state. At least England won far more matches in the good days of Ian
Botham.
> Only a guy who really, really hates Kapil (and I
>have a sneaky feeling really, really worships Gavaskar, maybe someone
>else more used to reading this guy's posts could verify) would employ
>such machinations which are as imbecilic as calling Kapil's fielding
>useless.If I black out the period from 1977 to 1981 ashes series I can
>show that Botham was a worse all rounder than Simon O'Donnell. Now that
>wouldn't be fair to Botham, would it? If I black out the period from
>1971 to 1979 England tour I can show that Gavaskar was barely among the
>world's top 5 batsmen.
At least SMG's was in top ten even during his off days.Your idol Kapil could
barely make in top 10 even when he was supposedly at his best. And we all
know what Kapil was during his lousy days ( which by the way far exceeds his
good days).
Some other poster rated Kapil in all time top 50. Considering that Kapil has
highest wkt in test cricket , that is not much to say. In fact it is an
insult. Top wkt taker in top 50. Ha Ha Ha.
>Sankara (who believes the Lord put Ravi Krishna on earth just to annoy
>other people)
Was this personal attack necessary.
RaviK ( who believes that the biggest tragedy of Indian cricket was the
hero worshipping of useless Kapil )
Kanwar Dhaliwal
Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
> At least SMG's was in top ten even during his off days.Your idol Kapil could
> barely make in top 10 even when he was supposedly at his best. And we all
> know what Kapil was during his lousy days ( which by the way far exceeds his
> good days).
> Some other poster rated Kapil in all time top 50. Considering that Kapil has
> highest wkt in test cricket , that is not much to say. In fact it is an
> insult. Top wkt taker in top 50. Ha Ha Ha.
>
You are grossly wrong here Ravi. Kapil is by far the greatest cricketer
to ever come out of India who could walk into any side either on the
weight of his batting or bowling. As far as Gavaskar goes, I would rate
GR Viswanath over him because he was the one who produced in tough
situations whereas SMG just waited for his moment all the time. Neither
was Gavaskar a game breaker king of a guy and was even selfish most of
the times. Have you forgotten his Calcutta fiasco where he kept Kapil
out of the side because he couldn't stomach his success and his
consecutive test match streak.
Kapil was never used well as a batsman and was always the only bowler
who carried India for greater part of his career even though he was a
drag at the end of it but that is besides the point.
Ravi Krishna
In article <33AEF6...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu>, Kanwar says...
>You are grossly wrong here Ravi. Kapil is by far the greatest cricketer
>to ever come out of India who could walk into any side either on the
>weight of his batting or bowling. As far as Gavaskar goes, I would rate
>GR Viswanath over him because he was the one who produced in tough
>situations whereas SMG just waited for his moment all the time. Neither
>was Gavaskar a game breaker king of a guy and was even selfish most of
>the times. Have you forgotten his Calcutta fiasco where he kept Kapil
>out of the side because he couldn't stomach his success and his
>consecutive test match streak.
Sorry that is your view. Kapil may be the best indian bowler but he was
quite pathetic (I repeat pathetic) by international standards as a bowler.
In the company of Imran,Hadlee,Marshall,Holding,Roberts,Lille,Akram and many
others of past he was really ordinary.
SMG on the other hand was always in the top 3 batsmen of his time, sometimes
the best. I don't know on what basis you are rating GRV above him but they
have played cricket together for 12 years ( from 1971 to 1983) and 9 out of
10 times it was SMG who scored more runs than GRV.
To say Kapil would walk into any side as a bowler or a batsman is indeed
a joke. Kapil could barely find a place as a bowler in WI or Australia or
even in Pakistan. It speaks highly of Indian cricket standards if he was
tolerated for that much time as a bowler.
Why don't you read the views of all Imran,RIchards,Botham,WIllis,Holding,
Roberts,Akram,Willis and many others about SMG. They all rate him right
at the top. I have not seen players from other country rating Kapil that
high.
>Kapil was never used well as a batsman and was always the only bowler
>who carried India for greater part of his career even though he was a
>drag at the end of it but that is besides the point.
Do you know that during his captaincy Kapil did not bat any better than what
he batted in others captaincy. Also please do not say that Kapil was a drag
towards the end of his career. He was a drag for most part of his career, that
is from 1984 to 1994 after his knee operation. I have posted enuf stats
on his bowling and batting.
Just bcos Kapil is from India does not mean that we start overrating him.
-- Ravi Krishna
Sankara Narayanan
Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
>
> Even the period from 1978 to 1981 , India did not win as many matches as
> you state. At least England won far more matches in the good days of Ian
> Botham.
>
And how many matches did I state that India won? I did not state
anything on those lines.
All I said was if India had to win then Kapil had to have a great match
which is 110%
true. In the case of Botham England did not depend on Botham to win
matches. In fact
Botham was probably the second best bowler on his own team with Bob
Willis being better for a large part of his career. In other words there
was someone else to win matches for England with his bowling. Not so for
Kapil until the fag end of his career.
> At least SMG's was in top ten even during his off days.Your idol Kapil could
> barely make in top 10 even when he was supposedly at his best. And we all
> know what Kapil was during his lousy days ( which by the way far exceeds his
> good days).
First Kapil is not my idol. Second, your blanket statements can never be
supported with any facts. You have a fixation on repeating statements
such as Kapil was useless etc without any support. Additionally Gavaskar
would never be in anyone's ten greatest batsman of all time
except yours. Kapil will always be high on the list of 10 greatest all
rounders of all time
including yours which you yourself posted. This discussion was about
Kapil's all rounder qualities not just his bowling. And just as the
best decathlete is the best athlete in the
world the greatest allrounders (both by quality and peer comparison)
should be among the greatest 'cricketers'.
My foot Gavaskar would have been in the top ten when he was off (except
yours where he probably would still be above Richards). I can post
innumerable arguments as to how he cannot stand up and be counted in
hours of need. On his bad day like in the World Cup final of 1983 where
he put bat on ball one out of every ten balls he probably shouldn't be
in the Indian team leave alone the top ten in the world. In fact he
should have been dropped from the Indian side during the 1982 West
Indies tour. Indeed his constant failures against Lillee, the best of
the West Indian fast bowlers make him seem highly overrated. It's like
the Jordan vs. Malone argument. You may score all the points you want
but you don't make them when needed then you are one in a bunch.
We will see another batsman from India attaining the stature of Gavaskar
which if you ask me Tendulkar already has. Wait and see how long it
takes to produce another Kapil.
> Some other poster rated Kapil in all time top 50. Considering that Kapil has
> highest wkt in test cricket , that is not much to say. In fact it is an
> insult. Top wkt taker in top 50. Ha Ha Ha.
See how high Gavaskar is in the all time top 50. For a guy who has the
second highest aggregate he would be relatively pretty low too (except,
of course, yours). I would say top 50 of all time is stupendous for a
fast bowler from India. If Kapil is barely in the top 50 Botham would
also be of a similar rank and in my view lower.
> >Sankara (who believes the Lord put Ravi Krishna on earth just to annoy
> >other people)
> Was this personal attack necessary.
>
!!!!!!!
You were the one who started it maaaN! What warped world are you in?
Read your previous
postings.You called me an unabashed admirer of Kapil etc etc which I am
not.
> RaviK ( who believes that the biggest tragedy of Indian cricket was the
> hero worshipping of useless Kapil )
And you do it to yourself too! What can I say? You got a screw loose
somewhere.
Sankara
sahibzada rafay khan
In article <5okkv9$i...@drn.zippo.com>
r_kr...@hotmail.com (Ravi Krishna) wrote:
Sankara already mentioned some of Kapil's efforts and all you come and
say is check the stats .... you don't offer any ...... if you want stats to
work for you ... than give them to us ..............
so we can state in the same vein ... how many test did india win because
of gavaskar .............
Suresh Narayan
In article <33AF0A...@vm.cc.purdue.edu>,
Sankara Narayanan <sank...@vm.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
>Ravi Krishna wrote:
>>
< snipped "debate" between Ravi Krishna and Sankara >
>
>> >Sankara (who believes the Lord put Ravi Krishna on earth just to annoy
>> >other people)
>> Was this personal attack necessary.
>>
>!!!!!!!
>You were the one who started it maaaN! What warped world are you in?
>Read your previous
>postings.You called me an unabashed admirer of Kapil etc etc which I am
>not.
>
>> RaviK ( who believes that the biggest tragedy of Indian cricket was the
>> hero worshipping of useless Kapil )
>
>And you do it to yourself too! What can I say? You got a screw loose
>somewhere.
>
>Sankara
Ravi, YOU are making this a love-hate debate instead
of taking things as they are. Why you hate some
cricketers to such an extent is beyond one's reasoning.
I do not know what you acheive by posting articles such
as "Kapil is useless", "Javed is highly over-rated", etc.
I can understand one being a fan of a certain player and
disliking another and all that, but what you have for
Kapil is pure disrespect, and that just does not cut it.
So, please slack off and don't make rsc a battlefield.
Suresh
--
The unexpected doesn't always happen, but when it does, it generally
happens when you're not expecting it all that much.
Suresh Narayan
Ravi Krishna
>Sankara says...
>And how many matches did I state that India won? I did not state
>anything on those lines.
>All I said was if India had to win then Kapil had to have a great match
>which is 110% true.
Oh yeah, like the victory against Aus in Kanpur 1979. Kapil gave 110%.
> In the case of Botham England did not depend on Botham to win
>matches. In fact
>Botham was probably the second best bowler on his own team with Bob
>Willis being better for a large part of his career. In other words there
>was someone else to win matches for England with his bowling. Not so for
>Kapil until the fag end of his career.
Yup, that's why Botham took 14 wkts and a century against India in the Jubliee
test ( wonder what Kapil was doing for India in that match ) bcos he had
Willis at the other end.
> Kapil is not my idol. Second, your blanket statements can never be
>supported with any facts. You have a fixation on repeating statements
>such as Kapil was useless etc without any support. Additionally Gavaskar
>would never be in anyone's ten greatest batsman of all time
>except yours.
I am sure players like Botham,Imran,Richards,Willis,Sobers,Bradman are fools
to include SMG in all time top ten.
>My foot Gavaskar would have been in the top ten when he was off (except
>yours where he probably would still be above Richards). I can post
>innumerable arguments as to how he cannot stand up and be counted in
>hours of need. On his bad day like in the World Cup final of 1983 where
do not bring one day into a discussion involving test cricket.
>he put bat on ball one out of every ten balls he probably shouldn't be
>in the Indian team leave alone the top ten in the world. In fact he
>should have been dropped from the Indian side during the 1982 West
>Indies tour. Indeed his constant failures against Lillee, the best of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ha Ha Ha. Shows how much you have followed cricket. First of all SMG played
only 3 tests against Lillee (in 1981). In 6 innings only twice he got out
to Lillee. By that you mean "constant failures against Lillee". Ha Ha Ha.
In fact it was Pascoe who troubled SMG more in that series.
Do you know what Lille,Pascoe,Alderman did to VivRichards in the 1981-82
series.He had a worse series against Aus than SMG had the year before.
VivRichards never faced WI attack in test cricket but in WI domestic
cricket he has a terrible avg . In fact at one time his avg was 16 in WI
domestic cricket. Do you know how Thompson tormented Richards in the 1978
series in WI. Just a couple of months before SMG had scored 3 centuries
against Thomspon in 1977-78.
WHy don't you mention Amarnath's scores in binary digit against WI in 1983.
At least SMG never batted so badly. In fact his last innings (96 against
Pak ) was a gem. And your useless Kapil was a spent force after 1984
and in fact barring few series (4 in all) he was not a test class bowler in
any series both at home and away. Too bad if you dont like it,go suck an egg.
>the West Indian fast bowlers make him seem highly overrated. It's like
>the Jordan vs. Malone argument. You may score all the points you want
>but you don't make them when needed then you are one in a bunch.
SMG has scored 2 centuries against Holding,Roberts in 1976. Not to mention
his 2 centuries against Marshall,Holding in 1983.
>See how high Gavaskar is in the all time top 50. For a guy who has the
>second highest aggregate he would be relatively pretty low too (except,
>of course, yours). I would say top 50 of all time is stupendous for a
>fast bowler from India. If Kapil is barely in the top 50 Botham would
>also be of a similar rank and in my view lower.
I have already answered where SMG stands in all time 50 and that too by great
players of past.
Now answer this question(s):-
(a) How many times has Kapil taken 10 wkts in a match outside India ?
(b) How many times has Kapil bowled a team twice outside India ?
(c) In how many series did Kapil took more than 4 wkts per match ( specifically
after 1984).
(d) In how many series did Kapil avg more than 40 as a batsman , assuming
40 is a pretty decent avg.
I am sure you will post an excuse for every point mentioned above.
Now also look at the performance of other great bowlers like Hadlee,Imran,
Holding,Marshall and others and see where Kapil stands.
-- Ravi Krishna ( the trouble with most of the indian cricket fans is that
they don't follow cricket and start bullshitting).
Sankara Narayanan
Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
> In article <33AEF6...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu>, Kanwar says...
>
> >You are grossly wrong here Ravi. Kapil is by far the greatest cricketer
> >to ever come out of India who could walk into any side either on the
> >weight of his batting or bowling. As far as Gavaskar goes, I would rate
> >GR Viswanath over him because he was the one who produced in tough
> >situations whereas SMG just waited for his moment all the time. Neither
> >the times. Have you forgotten his Calcutta fiasco where he kept Kapil
> >out of the side because he couldn't stomach his success and his
> >consecutive test match streak.
Not to mention questions about Gavaskar's patriotism. I can't imagine
anyone refusing to play for his country because someone pelted his wife
with orange peels. Public figures should learn to take the heat.
>
> Sorry that is your view. Kapil may be the best indian bowler but he was
> quite pathetic (I repeat pathetic) by international standards as a bowler.
> In the company of Imran,Hadlee,Marshall,Holding,Roberts,Lille,Akram and many
> others of past he was really ordinary.
Pathetic?!!!! Blanket statement again. Support it with facts.
If Kapil was pathetic all along how come he got his first 100 wkts in 25
tests, 200 wickets in 50/60 tests and the 300 in about 75/80. How many
bowlers in history have done better than that? And where exactly would
you rank Botham in the company mentioned above. Those bowlers were
definitely better but how many of them can bat or field like Kapil.
Kapil did everything. He has won and saved matches with bat, ball and
fielding. How many of the above can claim the same. Except Imran (not
fielding) none of the others. Not even Akram. In the company of Barry
Richards, Viv Richards, Border and Miandad etc Gavaskar is ordinary too.
I wouldn't want to hear Holding, Roberts, and especially Lillee and
Hadlee as to their views about Gavaskar. I like Gavaskar too much to
hear what they have to say. He was the greatest Indian batsman. But
Vishwanath and Amarnath were superior at various points. If it came down
to batting against the best of the west Indian quicks with the match on
the line I would always pick Vishwanath or Mohinder any day. To me
that's what matters. Not records.
> SMG on the other hand was always in the top 3 batsmen of his time, sometimes
> the best. I don't know on what basis you are rating GRV above him but they
> have played cricket together for 12 years ( from 1971 to 1983) and 9 out of
> 10 times it was SMG who scored more runs than GRV.
> To say Kapil would walk into any side as a bowler or a batsman is indeed
> a joke. Kapil could barely find a place as a bowler in WI or Australia or
> even in Pakistan. It speaks highly of Indian cricket standards if he was
> tolerated for that much time as a bowler.
Top 3 in 'your' list. Barry and Viv Richards, Border and Miandad were
always better. At various other points Greg Chappell, Greenidge, Lloyd,
even Vishwanath, Gooch(!!), and Amarnath were better. One may have the
best record. But score against the best bowlers when needed. That's what
counts. Gavaskar made it a few times but fell short many times. He was
in the top 10 and sometimes in the top 5. That would be more accurate.
Show me he was in the top 3 from 1980-84.
>
> Why don't you read the views of all Imran,RIchards,Botham,WIllis,Holding,
> Roberts,Akram,Willis and many others about SMG. They all rate him right
> at the top. I have not seen players from other country rating Kapil that
> high.
I have only heard Imran speak about Gavaskar. I haven't heard any of the
others say anything. In fact, read Marshall's book "Marshall Arts" you
will get some pretty accurate comments and not too complimentary. You
are putting words in the mouth of others to suit your own end. Try Ian
Chappell for comments on Kapil.
> Do you know that during his captaincy Kapil did not bat any better than what
> he batted in others captaincy. Also please do not say that Kapil was a drag
> towards the end of his career. He was a drag for most part of his career, that
> is from 1984 to 1994 after his knee operation. I have posted enuf stats
> on his bowling and batting.
No you haven't produced any stats. Not that stats always count. In a
test series if there were 1 result and 4 dull draws its important who
played well in the win not the dull draws. Perform when needed. In the
later part of his career, he bowled very well during the England series
of 86. He practically won the first test through his bowling by knocking
off the England top order in the 2nd innings. He was great on the West
Indies tour in the late 80's. Got Richards out first ball etc. Infact,
compare Richards records against Kapil, Imran and Botham. That will show
who the greatest batsman in the world had the most trouble against. In
the Australian tour of 92 he was fantastic and was clearly the best
bowler on both sides. So much for a drag. Plus where was Botham at this
point. He could not keep his place in the England team after 1983/84
(6/7 years after debut). The drag came on at the very fag end. See how
many tests India has won abroad India since Kapil left.
Plus about the batting during 1984-94. He scored a splendid century
against Australia in the tied test in 1985. Saved a follow on. In 1985
Kapil dismantled Hadlee in the World Championship semi-final. (Also
bowled that beauty of a spell in the final against Pakistan icluding
that famous ball against Qasim Omar, BTW)
He saved embarrasment against England in 88 with those 4 sixes against
Hemmings. He saved our behinds in a test match in SAfrica with a
century. He performed splendidly with the bat in the World Cup of 92
with many timely quickfire knocks. During the 84-94 period he also made
his highest score of 162 against Sri Lanka. During this period Botham
was not even worth his place in the England team. And England were
among the bottom rung teams during this time. He made his debut only a
year or two before Kapil.
I still haven't seen you discuss Botham's performances as captain or
against WI. Other than cannabis smoking and entertaining Miss Barbados
i.e. You questioned Kapil's performances against Australia. They are
actually pretty good. He had two 5 wkt hauls in 1980-81, if I remember
right. In fact, the second one won the match. He had a 8 wkt in an
innings in 1985-86. He was the best bowler in the 92 tour on both
sides. He saved the match for India in the tied test. What more do you
want? Try calling that useless.
>
> Just bcos Kapil is from India does not mean that we start overrating him.
>
The same applies to Gavaskar. If I were overrating Kapil I will be
putting him above Imran and Sobers!
> -- Ravi Krishna
Sankara
K Vijay Kumar
sahibzada rafay khan wrote:
>
> so we can state in the same vein ... how many test did india win because
> of gavaskar .............
>
> sahibzada rafay khan
> ## life ambition to climb Nanga Parbat (east face)without oxygen ##
>
full stats for those matches
Ist Innings IInd Innings
-------------------- ----------------------
Date vs Venue How Bowler Runs How Bowler Runs
Out Out
--------- --- ------------- --- ---------- ---- --- ------------ ----
6-Mar-71 WI Port-Of-Spain c Noriega 65 NO 67
19-Aug-71 ENG Oval b Snow 6 lb Snow 0
30-Dec-72 ENG Calcutta c Underwood 18 lb Old 2
12-Jan-73 ENG Madras c Gifford 20 NO 0
24-Jan-76 NZ Auckland c Howarth 116 NO 35
7-Apr-76 WI Port-Of-Spain lb Holding 26 c Jumadeen 102
10-Nov-76 NZ Bombay c Pethrick 119 c Hadlee 14
26-Nov-76 NZ Madras b Cairns 2 st O'Sullivan 43
28-Jan-77 ENG Bangalore c Lever 4 c Underwood 50
30-Dec-77 Aus Melbourne c Thompson 0 c Gannon 118
7-Jan-78 Aus Sydney c Thompson 49 DNB
12-Jan-79 WI Madras c Phillip 4 c Clarke 1
2-Oct-79 Aus Kanpur lb Dymock 76 c Yardley 12
3-Nov-79 Aus Bombay c Border 123 DNB
16-Dec-79 Pak Bombay c Bakht 4 c Iqbal Qasim 48
15-Jan-80 Pak Madras c Imran 166 NO 29
7-Feb-81 Aus Melbourne c Pascoe 10 lb Lillee 70
27-Nov-81 ENG Bombay c Botham 55 c Botham 14
28-Nov-84 ENG Bombay c Cowans 27 c Cowans 5
5-Jun-86 ENG Lords c Dilley 34 c Dilley 22
19-Jun-86 ENG Leeds c Pringle 35 c Lever 1
27-Dec-86 SL Nagpur c Gurusinha 74 DNB
4-Jan-87 SL Cuttack lb Ratnayake 5 DNB
========================================================================
Judge for yourselves the impact that the man has had on India's
performance.
--
ps : Wish you all the best in your ambition Sahibzada
----------------------------------
The Truth - any which way you want
-----------------------
vijay...@hotmail.com
Sankara Narayanan
Ravi Krishna wrote:
>
> >Sankara says...
>
> Yup, that's why Botham took 14 wkts and a century against India in the Jubliee
> test ( wonder what Kapil was doing for India in that match ) bcos he had
> Willis at the other end.
You do not seem to be well trained in logic. All I said was England did
not depend on Botham's bowling to win every match. That does not rule
out Botham winning matches by himself. Willis has won many matches on
his own including one in the famous Botham's Ashes series where he
bowled the Aussies out for 120+ with an 8 wkt haul. Willis himself has
300+ wickets in tests and at a better average than Botham. That relieves
a lot of Botham's bowling pressures.ALso if Botham plays well in a match
and Kapil does not then it does not mean Botham's great and Kapil is
not.
>
> I am sure players like Botham,Imran,Richards,Willis,Sobers,Bradman are fools
> to include SMG in all time top ten.
I would like to know where these fictional top ten lists were published.
The funniest part is your claim of Bradman (and Sobers) sitting down and
writing a top 10 list!!! What a fib!!!!
Guess I misjudged who the actual fool was!
>
> >My foot Gavaskar would have been in the top ten when he was off (except
> >yours where he probably would still be above Richards). I can post
> >innumerable arguments as to how he cannot stand up and be counted in
> >hours of need. On his bad day like in the World Cup final of 1983 where
> do not bring one day into a discussion involving test cricket.
Why is that? Because Gavaskar wasn't great at it? Quite convenient isn't
it?
Everything matters man. 36n.o. in 60 overs counts too! A game is a game.
>
> Ha Ha Ha. Shows how much you have followed cricket. First of all SMG played
> only 3 tests against Lillee (in 1981). In 6 innings only twice he got out
> to Lillee. By that you mean "constant failures against Lillee". Ha Ha Ha.
> In fact it was Pascoe who troubled SMG more in that series.
Shows how much knowledge you have of cricket. You don't have to be
dismissed by a guy
to be tormented by him. Lillee always had him in trouble. Even that 70
in the last innings was a patchy knock. Pascoe also had his number quite
often.
All in all Gavaskar looked like a tailender most of that series.
>
> Do you know what Lille,Pascoe,Alderman did to VivRichards in the 1981-82
> series.He had a worse series against Aus than SMG had the year before.
> VivRichards never faced WI attack in test cricket but in WI domestic
> cricket he has a terrible avg . In fact at one time his avg was 16 in WI
> domestic cricket. Do you know how Thompson tormented Richards in the 1978
> series in WI. Just a couple of months before SMG had scored 3 centuries
> against Thomspon in 1977-78.
Its Thomson, BTW. Richards has blasted Lillee and Co. enough times
during his career. In fact, he did it on one leg too. That famous 150
(in Adelaide I think). Produce stats on Richards' domestic average.
Everybody claims averages of 10-15. Nobody ever shows it. Richards may
not have faced WI quicks in tests. It wasn't his fault. Gavaskar never
faced the famous Indian spinners. You cannot throw around bullshit
excuses like that. Claiming one or the other's average would have been
lower otherwise is just pointless speculation. Richards has mauled every
bowler he played against one time or another home and away. That's all
that matters.
> WHy don't you mention Amarnath's scores in binary digit against WI in 1983.
> At least SMG never batted so badly.
Gavaskar did in West Indies in 1982. Getting 1 run vs. 10 runs is no big
difference. Don't point out that stupid century in that dull draw where
Marshall bowled with half run-up. Its just stats. Plus Amarnath's
batting against the WIdians in that '82 series was the greatest ever
performance by any Indian batsman in any series in Indian history. In
fact, it was the greatest of the decadein all of cricket. Only Border's
performance in the '85 series in WI and Miandad's in the late 80's are
close to the same level. Amarnath should have been declared a national
treasure after that. That WI bowling attack is one for the ages.
Gavaskar was just ripped apart. Between 1981 and 1983 Gavaskar faced WI
fast bowlers, Lillee and Hadlee (top ten on anyone's list) and failed
throughout. That is bad batting not a bad patch.
> In fact his last innings (96 against
> Pak ) was a gem. And your useless Kapil was a spent force after 1984
> and in fact barring few series (4 in all) he was not a test class bowler in
> any series both at home and away. Too bad if you dont like it,go suck an egg.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am a vegetarian, BTW.
What happened to your assertion that Kapil was useless as a bowler
through his career? Why have you changed your tune to after 1984? Your
very first post stated that, BTW. Moreover barring a few series ( maybe
3 or 4) Sobers can be shown be useless as a bowler all his career. Kapil
got over 200 wickets after 1984. If he was that good as a spent force
then he really was a great bowler. In fact, barring about 10 series
Kapil was no good as a cricketer at all!!!
WHERE WAS BOTHAM AFTER 1984?!!
>
> SMG has scored 2 centuries against Holding,Roberts in 1976.
I did not call him useless unlike you. Just overrated. That attack would
not even compare with one in the '82 series. Roberts, Marshall, Holding,
Garner. One of the centuries in '76 (at Kingston) was on a spinners
paradise where everybody including Brijesh Patel excelled. However, he
was definitely instrumental in the victory. Along with Vishwanath and a
few others.
> Not to mention
> his 2 centuries against Marshall,Holding in 1983.
Vengsarkar did it too. Centuries in dull draws. Dead Indian wickets. Who
the hell cares. Don't claim that his batting saved the last match at
Madras. He was clearly out at 34. Plus it was just the first innings.
You cannot say India would have lost had he been out. Guys like Kirmani,
Shastri batted well in that match too.
> I have already answered where SMG stands in all time 50 and that too by great
> players of past.
Some answer! Show proof. Who said what where. I can go around claiming
that Gary Sobers once said that Kapil is better than him. I say you are
just plain lying when you say that Holding or Lillee called Gavaskar an
all time top 10 bat. BTW, I have heard Ian Chappell, Richie Benaud, Tony
Greig, Fred Truman etc singing praises of Kapil too.
>
> Now answer this question(s):-
>
> (a) How many times has Kapil taken 10 wkts in a match outside India ?
> (b) How many times has Kapil bowled a team twice outside India ?
> (c) In how many series did Kapil took more than 4 wkts per match ( specifically
> after 1984).
> (d) In how many series did Kapil avg more than 40 as a batsman , assuming
> 40 is a pretty decent avg.
> I am sure you will post an excuse for every point mentioned above.
(a) What's the difference between 8/9 wkts and 10 wkts?
(b) How many times has Botham done the same outside England?
(c) Specifically (after 1984) how often did Botham make it to the
England team?!!
(d) What about Botham?
Botham's career may have been better than Kapil's before 1982. But only
by a little. Kapil's career after 1982 is streets ahead of Botham. In
fact, Botham after 1984 did not have a career.
Also the question is who turns the tables. Botham and Kapil are both
great because they could turn the tables. If Kapil knocks out the top
order and somebody else wipes off the tail it is still Kapil's
performance that won the game. In other words you can take one catch and
turn a game. For instance Kapil's catch off Richards in the WC final
'83. And for instance(ad nauseam) Kapil was heroic in the first test on
the England tour of 1982. The other tests in that series no bowler in
the world could have done anything because they were dead pitches. Kapil
got 8 wkts in the first test. Had he got 0 in the others he would have
averaged less than 4. Does that mean he had a bad series? No because he
stepped up when it mattered. And there was only one game that decided
the series.
You are blind to anything but stats. Which is why you adore Gavaskar so
much. Giving you a detailed summary of all the statistics you want would
consume a couple of days. I have a life. And I have already posted all
my supporting facts I needed in previous replies.
>
> Now also look at the performance of other great bowlers like Hadlee,Imran,
> Holding,Marshall and others and see where Kapil stands.
See where does Botham stand in that company?. Also see where the above
mentioned stand with Kapil in terms of batting and fielding.
>
> -- Ravi Krishna ( the trouble with most of the indian cricket fans is that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you confessing to suffering from "the Frog in the Well syndrome"?
> they don't follow cricket and start bullshitting).
(a)Still no whisper of Botham's performance as captain or against WI.
(b) I want to see Bradman and Sobers top 10 list with Gavaskar in it? If
you can, throw in Letterman's too?
Sankara
Ravi Krishna
> Sankar wrote:-
> You do not seem to be well trained in logic. All I said was England did
> not depend on Botham's bowling to win every match. That does not rule
> out Botham winning matches by himself. Willis has won many matches on
> his own including one in the famous Botham's Ashes series where he
> bowled the Aussies out for 120+ with an 8 wkt haul. Willis himself has
> 300+ wickets in tests and at a better average than Botham. That relieves
> a lot of Botham's bowling pressures.ALso if Botham plays well in a match
> and Kapil does not then it does not mean Botham's great and Kapil is
> not.
mean that Botham can perform well. For that he has to play well himself. In
fact support from the other end has be given too much importance by Kapil
fans more as an excuse. When did Hadlee had great support from the other
hand. When Imran knocked out India in the 1982-83 series he had little
support from the other hand. The next highest wkt taker in that series was
Sarfraz with 17 wkts.
> I would like to know where these fictional top ten lists were published.
> The funniest part is your claim of Bradman (and Sobers) sitting down and
> writing a top 10 list!!! What a fib!!!!
> Guess I misjudged who the actual fool was!
all time batting line up ( for test ) and SMG was in it.
> Why is that? Because Gavaskar wasn't great at it? Quite convenient isn't
> it?
> Everything matters man. 36n.o. in 60 overs counts too! A game is a game.
sucked big time in ODI.
> Shows how much knowledge you have of cricket. You don't have to be
> dismissed by a guy
> to be tormented by him. Lillee always had him in trouble. Even that 70
> in the last innings was a patchy knock. Pascoe also had his number quite
> often.
> All in all Gavaskar looked like a tailender most of that series.
and so did Vishwanath. Except for that 114 in the Melbounre test he looked
like tailender in both Aus and NZ. SMG also scored a timely 70 on a rapidly
detortiating pitch.
What is your comment on Greg Chappel's duck parade against WI the next year,
or VivR pathetic batting in the same series.
> Its Thomson, BTW. Richards has blasted Lillee and Co. enough times
> during his career. In fact, he did it on one leg too. That famous 150
> (in Adelaide I think). Produce stats on Richards' domestic average.
> Everybody claims averages of 10-15. Nobody ever shows it. Richards may
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This was mentioned in Sportstar in 1986 that VivR has extremly poor record in
WI domestic cricket. Can any WI'ian in RSC confirm this. I agree that this
is not VRs fault that he didn't face WI quickies but I can bet that he would
have been in deep trouble against WI , judgeing by the way he batted against
our own kapil.
> not have faced WI quicks in tests. It wasn't his fault. Gavaskar never
> faced the famous Indian spinners. You cannot throw around bullshit
> excuses like that. Claiming one or the other's average would have been
> lower otherwise is just pointless speculation. Richards has mauled every
> bowler he played against one time or another home and away. That's all
> that matters.
FYI I am a bigger fan of VR than SMG and I do not want to insult him. I
brought that into discussion only because you seem to overemphasise SMG
failure in a couple of series. VR has succedded against Aus in 1979-80 but
he failed miserably against them in 1981-82. In fact VR also had a poor run
in 1984-85,1988-89 and 1991 series against Aussies. You also seem to be an
expert in passing unsubtantiated blanket statments that VR demolished all
bowlers. Oh really , that's why from 1981 to 1991 he had a 'great' avg of
just 40. In fact after 1981 his batting took a great dip.
> Gavaskar did in West Indies in 1982. Getting 1 run vs. 10 runs is no big
> difference. Don't point out that stupid century in that dull draw where
> Marshall bowled with half run-up. Its just stats. Plus Amarnath's
> batting against the WIdians in that '82 series was the greatest ever
> performance by any Indian batsman in any series in Indian history. In
> fact, it was the greatest of the decadein all of cricket.
Add that Amarnath's score of 0,0,1,0,0,0 is also the greatest batting of the
century. Just because MA batted well in WI does not mean that he can score
in binary digits later on. That's a ridiculous suggestion. Also dont forget
MA first ball dismissal to Akram in that Banglore test in 1987 when India
needed him most.
> Only Border's
> performance in the '85 series in WI and Miandad's in the late 80's are
> close to the same level. Amarnath should have been declared a national
You seem to have a knack of quoting wrong facts. Border had a magnificent
series in 1984 and not 1985. Lemme remind you that after that series Border
just could not score that much runs against WI. Check for his batting in
1984-85 , 1988-89 and 1991. He batted better in 1992-93.
> treasure after that. That WI bowling attack is one for the ages.
> Gavaskar was just ripped apart. Between 1981 and 1983 Gavaskar faced WI
> fast bowlers, Lillee and Hadlee (top ten on anyone's list) and failed
> throughout. That is bad batting not a bad patch.
Agreed that SMG failed between 1981 and 1983 but please remember that he has
done very well against other great fast bowlers also and who are much quicker
than Lillee and Hadlee of early 1980's. Imran , Holding , Roberts , Thomo,
Willis etc. If SMG consistently failed against all fast bowlers than it
would have been a different story.
> What happened to your assertion that Kapil was useless as a bowler
> through his career? Why have you changed your tune to after 1984? Your
> very first post stated that, BTW. Moreover barring a few series ( maybe
> 3 or 4) Sobers can be shown be useless as a bowler all his career. Kapil
> got over 200 wickets after 1984. If he was that good as a spent force
> then he really was a great bowler. In fact, barring about 10 series
> Kapil was no good as a cricketer at all!!!
> WHERE WAS BOTHAM AFTER 1984?!!
See the end of the mail.
> I did not call him useless unlike you. Just overrated. That attack would
> not even compare with one in the '82 series. Roberts, Marshall, Holding,
> Garner. One of the centuries in '76 (at Kingston) was on a spinners
> paradise where everybody including Brijesh Patel excelled. However, he
> was definitely instrumental in the victory. Along with Vishwanath and a
> few others.
> Vengsarkar did it too. Centuries in dull draws. Dead Indian wickets. Who
As if Amarnath's great batting saved India. India lost 0-3 in Pakistan and
0-2 in WI , at a time whem Amarnath was scoring tons of run. I am writing
this to let you know that batting well and the result of the match has no
relation.
BTW SMG has scored more 100's abroad than India and has better avg abroad than
India. Not bad for a player who relishes dead Indian tracks.
> the hell cares. Don't claim that his batting saved the last match at
> Madras. He was clearly out at 34. Plus it was just the first innings.
> You cannot say India would have lost had he been out. Guys like Kirmani,
> Shastri batted well in that match too.
I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.
> Some answer! Show proof. Who said what where. I can go around claiming
> that Gary Sobers once said that Kapil is better than him. I say you are
> just plain lying when you say that Holding or Lillee called Gavaskar an
> all time top 10 bat. BTW, I have heard Ian Chappell, Richie Benaud, Tony
> Greig, Fred Truman etc singing praises of Kapil too.
I never included Lillee in that list.
> (a) What's the difference between 8/9 wkts and 10 wkts?
> (b) How many times has Botham done the same outside England?
are you telling this just to justify Kapil. How come Imran did it 3
times,Hadlee did it some 5 times , Botham did it once ( may be twice). Not
to speak of other great bowlers. Mind you your god Kapil did not do it even
once in England,Australia,WI,NZ - supposedly a paradise for fast bowlers.
> (c) Specifically (after 1984) how often did Botham make it to the England team
?!!
Kapil did not do it even during his so called best days. If Botham did not
make it to England team it shows that England had better bowling reserves.
Don't tell me that Kapil after 1984 would have been in any side. He was in
Indian team because of pathetic standard of Indian bowling.
> (d) What about Botham?
> Botham's career may have been better than Kapil's before 1982. But only
> by a little. Kapil's career after 1982 is streets ahead of Botham. In
> fact, Botham after 1984 did not have a career.
See my figures of Kapil at the end.
> Also the question is who turns the tables. Botham and Kapil are both
> great because they could turn the tables. If Kapil knocks out the top
> order and somebody else wipes off the tail it is still Kapil's
> performance that won the game. In other words you can take one catch and
> turn a game. For instance Kapil's catch off Richards in the WC final
> '83. And for instance(ad nauseam) Kapil was heroic in the first test on
> the England tour of 1982. The other tests in that series no bowler in
> the world could have done anything because they were dead pitches. Kapil
> got 8 wkts in the first test. Had he got 0 in the others he would have
> averaged less than 4. Does that mean he had a bad series? No because he
> stepped up when it mattered. And there was only one game that decided
> the series.
Oh really, that's why India has such a poor record in test cricket in bowling
out an opposition twice. Pathetic Kapil was just not good enuf to bowl out
an opposing team out twice , a neccssary requirement to win a test match and
a performance routinely done by Imran,Hadlee,Marshall,Akram etc.
> See where does Botham stand in that company?. Also see where the above
> mentioned stand with Kapil in terms of batting and fielding.
Who cares for useless bowling and batting. I would any day prefer a full
fleged bowler like Hadlee in my team who can't bat , rather a useless Kapil.
> (a)Still no whisper of Botham's performance as captain or against WI.
> (b) I want to see Bradman and Sobers top 10 list with Gavaskar in it? If
> you can, throw in Letterman's too?
as I said earlier I can't give proof right now for this.
> Not to mention questions about Gavaskar's patriotism. I can't imagine
> anyone refusing to play for his country because someone pelted his wife
> with orange peels. Public figures should learn to take the heat.
You forget to add SMG's fetish for records and that's why he played for 4
more years after breaking Bradman's record in 1983. And Lord Kapil - he was
in team for his last 3 years just to beat Hadlee's record and the moment he
achieved it he retired. What dedication to records. I salute him.
> Pathetic?!!!! Blanket statement again. Support it with facts.
> If Kapil was pathetic all along how come he got his first 100 wkts in 25
> tests, 200 wickets in 50/60 tests and the 300 in about 75/80. How many
> bowlers in history have done better than that? And where exactly would
> you rank Botham in the company mentioned above. Those bowlers were
> definitely better but how many of them can bat or field like Kapil.
> Kapil did everything. He has won and saved matches with bat, ball and
> fielding. How many of the above can claim the same.
Agreed that other great bowlers cant do the same mediocre batting of Kapil
but the bottom line who has given more victory. As I said earlier any team
would prefer a great bowler and a lousy bat like Hadlee to a bit-of-this ,
bit-of-that Kapil ( mediorce in all , great in none ). Did it occur to you
that why NZ had much much better success ratio in test cricket than India even
though India always had much better batting line up.
>Except Imran (not
> fielding) none of the others. Not even Akram. In the company of Barry
> Richards, Viv Richards, Border and Miandad etc Gavaskar is ordinary too.
Barry Richards.??? Who , the man who played only 4 test matches. Sure you
must have seen him playing in RSA/Aus/Eng or he must have come to your home
to show his batting prowess so that you can rate him ahead of SMG.
Minadad - the man who has an avg of 45 outside home (compared to 61 at
home), and has scored 9 centuries outside compared to 16 at home. The man
who didn't get LBW at home for 9 straight years. The man who has an avg of 29
against WI and 38 in Australia. Sure sure he is better than SMG.
Border :- who played much more test cricket than SMG but scored only 27
centuries.
VivR :- no comments. He is the only one I rate as great as SMG.
> I wouldn't want to hear Holding, Roberts, and especially Lillee and
> Hadlee as to their views about Gavaskar. I like Gavaskar too much to
> hear what they have to say. He was the greatest Indian batsman. But
> Vishwanath and Amarnath were superior at various points. If it came down
> to batting against the best of the west Indian quicks with the match on
> the line I would always pick Vishwanath or Mohinder any day. To me
> that's what matters. Not records.
Sure sir. Your views are recorded and will be dispatched to all great
players while rating SMG,MA and GRV.
> Top 3 in 'your' list. Barry and Viv Richards, Border and Miandad were
> always better. At various other points Greg Chappell, Greenidge, Lloyd,
> even Vishwanath, Gooch(!!), and Amarnath were better. One may have the
He He He. You forgot to add TE Srinivasan,Srikkanth,WV Raman as better than
SMG on their day.
> best record. But score against the best bowlers when needed. That's what
> counts. Gavaskar made it a few times but fell short many times. He was
> in the top 10 and sometimes in the top 5. That would be more accurate.
> Show me he was in the top 3 from 1980-84.
Here I agree that he was not in top 3 in early 80's.
> I have only heard Imran speak about Gavaskar. I haven't heard any of the
> others say anything. In fact, read Marshall's book "Marshall Arts" you
> will get some pretty accurate comments and not too complimentary. You
> are putting words in the mouth of others to suit your own end. Try Ian
> Chappell for comments on Kapil.
Try reading Imran's comments on Kapil. Try reading Martin Crowe's comment on
Kapil in Telegraph (Calcutta) newspaper during 1987 World Cup.
> No you haven't produced any stats. Not that stats always count. In a
> test series if there were 1 result and 4 dull draws its important who
> played well in the win not the dull draws. Perform when needed. In the
> later part of his career, he bowled very well during the England series
> of 86. He practically won the first test through his bowling by knocking
> off the England top order in the 2nd innings. He was great on the West
> Indies tour in the late 80's. Got Richards out first ball etc. Infact,
> compare Richards records against Kapil, Imran and Botham. That will show
Yes I compared and found that despite Kapil's 'outstanding' bowling against
WI ( specially against Richards) India lost to WI 9 matches and won 1 during
Kapil's time. Pak lost 6 times and won 4 (1 in Wi) times during Imran's
days. I also noticed that despite Kapil's heroic bowling in 1983 series and
1989 series against WI, he could never dismiss them cheaply. Of what use is
a 6 for 140 bowling figures if the other team scored 400 runs. When
Hadlee,Imran demolish a side they dismiss the other side cheaply not like
useless Kapil. Look at the number of times Kapil took 5+ wkts and yet the
other side scored heavily. I can recollect many such instances and that's
why I rate him useless / pathetic. eg: in faisalbad in 1983 when he took 7
for 220 out of a total of 657. Great great bowling .
> who the greatest batsman in the world had the most trouble against. In
> the Australian tour of 92 he was fantastic and was clearly the best
> bowler on both sides. So much for a drag. Plus where was Botham at this
Yup , he took 26 wkts and not once (except for Adelaide first innings) did
Aussie got out cheaply. Mcdermott OTOH took 31wkts and was instrumental in
kicking India 4-0 in that series. One more series of useless bowling by
Kapil. For a change why didnt Imran's Pak or Hadlee's NZ loose by such a
big margin.
> point. He could not keep his place in the England team after 1983/84
> (6/7 years after debut). The drag came on at the very fag end. See how
> many tests India has won abroad India since Kapil left.
A better question will be how many matches India won abroad during Kapils time.
For your benefit india won 4 test matches ( he he he , a great record) out of
which Kapil was direct contributor in only 2 matches , Melbourne 1981 and
Lords 1986.
> Plus about the batting during 1984-94. He scored a splendid century
> against Australia in the tied test in 1985. Saved a follow on. In 1985
> Kapil dismantled Hadlee in the World Championship semi-final. (Also
> bowled that beauty of a spell in the final against Pakistan icluding
> that famous ball against Qasim Omar, BTW)
> He saved embarrasment against England in 88 with those 4 sixes against
> Hemmings. He saved our behinds in a test match in SAfrica with a
> century. He performed splendidly with the bat in the World Cup of 92
> with many timely quickfire knocks. During the 84-94 period he also made
> his highest score of 162 against Sri Lanka. During this period Botham
> was not even worth his place in the England team. And England were
> among the bottom rung teams during this time. He made his debut only a
> year or two before Kapil.
> I still haven't seen you discuss Botham's performances as captain or
> against WI. Other than cannabis smoking and entertaining Miss Barbados
> i.e. You questioned Kapil's performances against Australia. They are
> actually pretty good. He had two 5 wkt hauls in 1980-81, if I remember
> right. In fact, the second one won the match. He had a 8 wkt in an
> innings in 1985-86. He was the best bowler in the 92 tour on both
> sides. He saved the match for India in the tied test. What more do you
> want? Try calling that useless.
Yes he is still useless. In 1991-92 we lost 4-0 , so much for Kapil's great
bowling. Taking 5 for 102 or 6 for 125 out of a total of 400 odd runs is
useless in my list , just like scoring century in a dull draw in your list.
You obviously picked a wrong man to discuss cricket. Here is Kapil's bowling
and batting during his entire career after reading it you will understand why
I call him useless/pathetic. I have rated on the following basis:-
Bowling :-
bad = strike rate of < 3 per match.
OK = strike rate of 3-3.5 per match.
Good = strike rate of ~4 per match.
Very Good = strike rate of ~4.5 per match.
Excellent = Self explanatory
Batting:-
bad = avg less than 30 in a series
OK = avg of 30-35 in a series.
Good = More than 35 with a couple of fifties and or a century
VGood/Excellent = Self explanatory.
I have kept a very lenient definition keeping in mind Kapil's standards.
Only series is taken into consideration , one off test not included.
Year Country Bowling Batting Result
1978 Pak Bad OK 0-2
1978-79 WI OK Good 1-0
1979 Eng Good Bad 0-1
1979 Aus V.Good OK 2-0
1979-80 Pak Excellent Good 2-0
1980-81 Aus V.Good Bad 1-1
1980-81 NZ Bad Bad 0-1
1981-82 Eng OK Good 1-0
1982 Eng OK V.Good 0-1
1982-83 Pak OK Bad 0-3
1983 WI OK Good 0-2
1983 Pak Good Bad 0-0
1983-84 WI Excellent Bad 0-3
1984 Pak bad bad 0-0
1984-85 Eng Bad OK 1-2
1985 Lanka OK OK 0-1
1985-86 Aus Good OK 0-0
1986 Eng Good OK 2-0
1986 Aus Bad Good 0-0
1986-87 Lanka OK Good 2-0
1987 Pak Bad OK 0-1
1987-88 WI Bad Good 1-1
1988 NZ Bad Bad 2-1
1989 WI V.Good Bad 0-3
1989-90 Pak OK OK 0-0
1990 NZ Bad Bad 0-1
1990 Eng Bad Good 0-1
1991-92 Aus Excellent Bad 0-4
1992-93 RSA Bad OK 0-1
1993 Eng Bad OK 3-0
1993 Lanka Bad Bad 1-0
1993-94 Lanka Bad OK 3-0
Out of 32 series:- Bad OK Good VGood Excellent
bowling 14 8 4 3 3
batting 12 11 8 1
I don't want to insult the intelligence of nettor by giving my judgement
about Kapil. It is left to the nettor to decide the performance of Kapil.
I think it was really a tragedy of Indian cricket that we had to depend on
Kapil for so long and that explains why India's test record is so pathetic ,
particularly in away series.
With this I am closing Kapil bashing as there is nothing more to add from my
side.
sahibzada rafay khan
In article <33B015...@vm.cc.purdue.edu>
Sankara Narayanan <sank...@vm.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
> Ravi Krishna wrote:
>> Just bcos Kapil is from India does not mean that we start overrating him.
i am not indian. I always felt that Kapil was a better batsmen than Imran or
Botham ...... that is why i asked whether it was just his own lack of application
or problems with gavaskar .........
sahibzada rafay khan
## life ambition to climb Nanga Parbat (east face)without oxygen ##
Ravi Krishna
In article <5os4hk$f5k$1...@juliana.sprynet.com>, ra...@sprynet.com says...
>i am not indian. I always felt that Kapil was a better batsmen than Imran or
>Botham ...... that is why i asked whether it was just his own lack of
>application
>or problems with gavaskar .........
>
>sahibzada rafay khan
According to Imran himself Kapil was more talented than him in
batting. But it was Imran who batted more sensibly and was more useful as a
batsman to his team. Similarly it was Botham who scored more runs during his
best days. The problem with Kapil's batting is that he never scored that
many runs as he should have.
Lack of application is the correct reason. Problem with Gavaskar can be
ruled out because Kapil's batting avg during his own captaincy days is just
the same as his overall batting avg. Now don't tell me that he had problems
with his own captaincy.
A.M.Narayanan
Ravi Krishna (r_kr...@hotmail.com) wrote:
:
: Nope. I am not defending SMG in ODI. For that matter GRV and MAmarnath also
: sucked big time in ODI.
Bullshit. Amarnath had 8 MOM in 85 matches. SMG had 5(couple against SL).
Besides MA had 46 wkts with economy rate of 4.33. MA's strike rate wasn't
high. He still was a match winner. MA was better match winner than Kris
who had 11 MOMs in 146 matches. Besides that MA played a big role in 1983
WC. GRV and DBV were worse than SMG in that regard.
Prasad Sista
IMRAN000 wrote:
>
> KAPIL GOT 420 WICKETS IN 140 TESTS.
> I THINK A DEAD MAN WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME IF HE WOULD HAVE PLAYED 140+
> TESTS........:-)
Hi. I havent posted before but the above statement makes me laugh.
1. A dead man cannot play 140 tests.
2. How many bowlers (fast/medium pace/spin) have played 100 tests??
I consider playing 100 odd tests a great achievement(leave alone taking
420 wickets)for a bowler. Remember the fact that there were not so many
test matches being played some time ago. So he stayed fit for almost for
15+ years which is great (forget about the fact that he is a cricketer.
Just as a human being). Being fit for so many years is an achievement in
itself. I have never seen Kapil bat with a runner. Neither have I seen
him run away into the dressing room after completing his first spell
(this is becoming more and more common now a days). From Indian cricket
team's point of view, Kapil is one of the greatest.
Hats off to Kapil
IMRAN000
Rick Eyre
IMRAN000 <imra...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970628010...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> KAPIL GOT 420 WICKETS IN 140 TESTS.
> I THINK A DEAD MAN WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME IF HE WOULD HAVE PLAYED 140+
> TESTS........:-)
434 wickets in 131 Tests in fact.
Only Allan Border has played 140+ Tests
Rick
A.M.Narayanan
Rick Eyre (gl...@bigpond.com) wrote:
: IMRAN000 <imra...@aol.com> wrote in article
: Rick
First of all they don't teach small letters in his school. Secondly
the kid is just learning numbers.
A.M.Narayanan
Ravi Krishna (r_kr...@hotmail.com) wrote:
:
: > Top 3 in 'your' list. Barry and Viv Richards, Border and Miandad were
: > always better. At various other points Greg Chappell, Greenidge, Lloyd,
: > even Vishwanath, Gooch(!!), and Amarnath were better. One may have the
:
: He He He. You forgot to add TE Srinivasan,Srikkanth,WV Raman as better than
: SMG on their day.
:
If Sankara bashes SMG RK will write about WVR TES and Kris. If some Thomas
writes that RK will write crap about David Johnson and Roger Binny.
Narayanan
Ravi Krishna
In article <5ot5io$b...@pavan.india.hp.com>, amn@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE
says...
>
>>Ravi Krishna (r_kr...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>>:
>>: Nope. I am not defending SMG in ODI. For that matter GRV and MAmarnath also
>>: sucked big time in ODI.
>Bullshit. Amarnath had 8 MOM in 85 matches. SMG had 5(couple against SL).
Checkout the number of MOM which Amarnath got for both batting and bowling.
I agree that MA was a utility man in ODI with his bowling and batting
but my point was that MA was no great shakes in batting in ODI and I am sure
his strike rate would have been more or less equal to SMG.
Ravi Krishna
In article <5ote92$d...@pavan.india.hp.com>, nar...@india.hp.com says...
>Isn't it true that Amarnath was suffering from jaundice and wanted to opt out
>but was asked to play during that series?
>
another day , another excuse.
Ravi Krishna
In article <5otf8k$d...@pavan.india.hp.com>, nar...@india.hp.com says...
>Don't start provoking all over again. Just because you run out of arguments
>doesn't mean you have to drag in Srikkanth or Raman. I know that the next
>step will be to claim that all people of the original poster's zone are
>hardcore supporters of these players and that is why you brought them in.
>And evidence for this? It is like evidence for Sobers' all time list.
>
>Evidence of course there is none,
>but the postman's sister's neighbour's son
>heard that somebody laying bricks
>claimed that TNers were fanatics
>who swore that Kris is #1.
>
>Cheers,
>-Arvind
Hey, if you care to read this thread right from the start you will know who
is provoking whom. Who started below the belt personal remark. Please read
it first. I called Kapil as pathetic , not his fans. This poster started
abusing me. Use Deja news and find out.
As regards running out of argument , sorry this will never happen in case
of SMG vs Kapil.
BTW this thread has migrated to another thread "Kapil Ruleeeeeeeeeeeeez".
Read my response there.
Cheers++ ;
-RaviK.
Anil K. Ruia
N Arvindkumar (nar...@india.hp.com) wrote:
: Evidence of course there is none,
: but the postman's sister's neighbour's son
: heard that somebody laying bricks
: claimed that TNers were fanatics
: who swore that Kris is #1.
Wah, Wah, that was great :).
Cheers,
Anil
Arjun Prabhu
Sandeep Choudhary
The bottom-line - Kapil Dev was a much superior cricketer than what his numbers shows.