Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
RSA shirt numbers
1,460 views
Skip to first unread message
vijay...@my-deja.com
Jan 2, 2011, 11:10:21 PM1/2/11
to
Kallis has #27. It appears to me that they started the numbering
from the time when RSA were re-admitted into Tests. I would
rather they acknowledged and recognized all the past cricketers
who represented South Africa until 1970. It never serves to
pretend past history does not exist. It must be always
acknowledged, if only to make sure we learn the correct lessons
from it.
from the time when RSA were re-admitted into Tests. I would
rather they acknowledged and recognized all the past cricketers
who represented South Africa until 1970. It never serves to
pretend past history does not exist. It must be always
acknowledged, if only to make sure we learn the correct lessons
from it.
Vijay
tendulkar.com
Jan 2, 2011, 11:19:15 PM1/2/11
to
What are you talking about?
vijay...@my-deja.com
Jan 2, 2011, 11:36:51 PM1/2/11
to
Most teams in the world now seem to have taken this
up. Test players have a number sewn into their shirts
(left breast pocket location) which is the serial number
assigned to players in order of their debut. Dhoni is
251 or so. SRT is 185 or so, indicating that 184 people
made their debut for India before SRT did.
The RSA team have very low numbers - Kallis is 27. They
are all in 2-digits. Given the 100 year history of test cricket
in South Africa, it is impossible that only 26 people had
played tests before Kallis made his debut.....
I hope it makes sense now.
Vijay
Southpaw
Jan 2, 2011, 11:38:09 PM1/2/11
to
If the tables were turned, you would say "STFW" or sigh at the lack of
resourcefulness of your fellow RSCers. :-)
Anyway, I'll try and explain. Like most if not all teams today, the
RSA team has player number printed on the player's shirt. This usually
refers to the serial number of the player, starting with the first
player to represent the country, and incremented with each player
making his debug. (Presumably the alphabetically 1st player in the
first test of the country was #1, his 10 team-mates being #2 through
#11, the first debutant thence getting #12, and so on.)
In RSA's case though they started counting only post-readmission, so
Kallis gets a very low number like 27, while India is currently in the
400s, England probably in the 600s or 700s. See
http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-india-2010/content/image/494277.html?object=45789;page=1.
Vijay's point is that they shouldn't forget about the players
pre-1970. I think RSA's point is that it was a different country then,
this is a "new," unified, RSA.
-Samarth.
Andrew Dunford
Jan 2, 2011, 11:37:56 PM1/2/11
to
<vijay...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7393bcb0-9662-4804...@k14g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Yes, they started again in 1991/92 with the team that played against WI
given numbers one to eleven. I believe captain Wessels was given number
one, then the rest go in batting order so that the late Tertius Bosch is
number eleven.
Kallis should be cap number 262 for South Africa.
Andrew
tendulkar.com
Jan 3, 2011, 12:00:01 AM1/3/11
to
Thanks for your reply :-) I guessed Vijay's talking about Cap numbers (Aussie term) or the Test Debut #. Just hadn't noticed those things on test match shirts (at least on the 320X240 quality highlight videos) because the only number that matters (i.e popular) are obviously on the back of the colored ones
Andrew Dunford
Jan 3, 2011, 2:28:09 AM1/3/11
to
<vijay...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3edf2780-8ff8-4a4d...@d1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
It was perfectly clear the first time. Bear in mind that as Roshan's post
did not quote the original, it was probably a bot that fires off a random
cantakerous response at a certain time of the month.
Andrew
Bob Dubery
Jan 3, 2011, 7:59:03 AM1/3/11
to
On Jan 3, 6:10 am, "vijaykum...@my-deja.com" <vijaykum...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
> Kallis has #27. It appears to me that they started the numbering
> from the time when RSA were re-admitted into Tests. I would
> rather they acknowledged and recognized all the past cricketers
> who represented South Africa until 1970.
How do you define that "represented South Africa"? That's the problem.
Did D'Oliveira represent SA? Some would say yes, but officially he did
not. What about those who represented SA but against teams that were
not themselves representative EG the various "rebel" sides? Do you
count, for EG, Ray Jennings in?
wrote:
> Kallis has #27. It appears to me that they started the numbering
> from the time when RSA were re-admitted into Tests. I would
> rather they acknowledged and recognized all the past cricketers
> who represented South Africa until 1970.
Did D'Oliveira represent SA? Some would say yes, but officially he did
not. What about those who represented SA but against teams that were
not themselves representative EG the various "rebel" sides? Do you
count, for EG, Ray Jennings in?
SA cricket history is a mess in a way that no other country's is.
raahil...@oberoi-is.net
Mar 15, 2015, 11:20:10 AM3/15/15
to
Rodney Ulyate
Mar 15, 2015, 4:50:14 PM3/15/15
to
On Monday, 3 January 2011 14:59:03 UTC+2, Bob Dubery wrote:
> SA cricket history is a mess in a way that no other country's is.
Things would be a bit better if South African cricket fans weren't historically illiterate. If they weren't, Krom Hendricks and Frank Roro would be household names. As it is, when we mourn careers cut short by racism or the consequences of racism, we mourn those of Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock. No-one notices how weird this is, less still how creepy and how sinister.
> SA cricket history is a mess in a way that no other country's is.
Rodney
Maxx
Mar 16, 2015, 7:44:13 AM3/16/15
to
> SA cricket history is a mess in a way that no other country's is.
Bob Dubery
Mar 16, 2015, 2:41:22 PM3/16/15
to
you didn't support Australia) and Pollock and Richards may have been
genuinely great batsmen, but most of our cricket history is not. Too
many players were marginalised or just never got a chance on the
metaphorical level field to find out what they could do. Not just at
Test level but at every level. As late as the Gatting rebel tour a
visiting English journalist sought to quantify the club and school
facilities available to players of different races and the figures
were grotesquely skewed.
After unification and readmission all the provinces were charged with
producing books to document as well as possible the previously untold
history of the game in each province. Try to track some of those down.
There was a whole cricketing history and culture that received very
little attention.
Whilst you're at it track down a copy of Bruce Murray's "Caught Behind"
which details the lengths that the then government went to to undermine
D'Oliveira and to influence the MCC.
It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like Haroon
Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees who have
little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game. Lorgat was
provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been regarded
as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that he played
the game.
John Hall
Mar 16, 2015, 3:24:55 PM3/16/15
to
In message <16a4f56b-95a8-4c67...@googlegroups.com>, Bob
Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
--
I'm not paid to implement the recognition of irony.
(Taken, with the author's permission, from a LiveJournal post)
Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
>It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like
>Haroon Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees
>who have little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game.
>Lorgat was provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been
>regarded as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that
>he played the game.
That's a shame. How about you put that right?
>Haroon Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees
>who have little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game.
>Lorgat was provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been
>regarded as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that
>he played the game.
--
I'm not paid to implement the recognition of irony.
(Taken, with the author's permission, from a LiveJournal post)
dechucka
Mar 16, 2015, 3:27:01 PM3/16/15
to
"Rodney Ulyate" <rodney...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f84fcd25-ebba-40eb...@googlegroups.com...
Hendricks is a bit in the past but does have a trophy named after him but
yes Roco may have been. I agree totally with your point and of course how
many potential cricketers didn't get a chance from the start because of
race.
I suppose in other countries economics was the factor that may of limited
some players reaching their potential but this was not an absolute or policy
sdavmor
Mar 16, 2015, 4:07:36 PM3/16/15
to
untold story" is an excellent read. Well researched, it also goes into
detail abut the SA government shenanigans.
--
SDM a 21st century schizoid man in SoCal
Systems Theory website www.systemstheory.net
Through The Looking Glass radio show at www.deepnuggets.com
Bob Dubery
Mar 16, 2015, 4:27:34 PM3/16/15
to
On Monday, 16 March 2015 21:24:55 UTC+2, John Hall wrote:
> In message <16a4f56b-95a8-4c67...@googlegroups.com>, Bob
> Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
> >It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like
> >Haroon Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees
> >who have little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game.
> >Lorgat was provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been
> >regarded as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that
> >he played the game.
>
> That's a shame. How about you put that right?
Not tonight. Somebody will post a reply along the lines of
> In message <16a4f56b-95a8-4c67...@googlegroups.com>, Bob
> Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
> >It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like
> >Haroon Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees
> >who have little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game.
> >Lorgat was provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been
> >regarded as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that
> >he played the game.
>
> That's a shame. How about you put that right?
"oh yes it does".
sdavmor
Mar 16, 2015, 7:01:48 PM3/16/15
to
the untold story" provincial matches after 1971 retroactively received
1st class status in 1998. In addition representative combined
multi-racial teams representing "non-white" South Africa playing
international 3 day fixtures (against Rhodesia, Kenya, Uganda, Pakistan,
etc) appear to have been given retroactive 1st class status all the way
back to 1961 (when this happened I am not sure, but it's good to see it
was done). In D'Oliveira's case that gave him 5 more matches from when
he was player-coach of Eastern Provinces, in 72-73 and 73-74 (before he
was injured).
The book's narrative and its appendix "A" references several series for
representative SACBOC versus Kenyan Asians, Uganda, and others from the
1950s. There were many 3 day matches in there that should be considered
1st class, given the quality of the cricket played and the opponents. I
suppose a cutoff had to be established so these series fall outside the
scope of D'Oliveira's 1st class career, which retroactively officially
commences not in England in 1964 but against Rhodesia in 61-62 and again
in 62-62 (4 matches), and against Pakistan in 63-64 (5 matches). Before
the Nov/Dec 1956 tour of South Africa by "Kenyan Asians" D'Oliveira had
played a lot of 2 day cricket. In 1956 he played 3 3 day games against
"Kenyan Asians", 2 of them "tests" as part of a South Africa Cricket
Board Of Control XI. His record:
For Western Province - 1 match, 20 & 39 runs, 3 catches, 2-0-8-0
bowling. Because of a severely bruised hand he batted at 8. For SACBOC
- 2 "tests", 70, 36*, 9 & 44 runs, 1 catch, did not bowl He missed the
3rd "test" due to injury.
In Aug/Sep 1958 SACBOC toured East Africa and Rhodesia. They played 16
matches, including 2 3 day "tests" vs Kenya, 1 3 day "test" vs East
Africa. They also played 3 day matches vs Tanganyika, Kenyan Asians and
Uganda. D'Oliveira scored 50 or more in every one of these major (3
day) fixtures on the tour.
Tour record - 12 matches, 15 innings, 0 not out, 648 runs, 139 highest
score, 1 ton, 7 50s, 8 catches. His also took 25 wickets for 298 at an
avg of 11.92. Best figures were 5 for 37.
In mentioning notable performances one game is worth citing that was not
a 3 day match. In Dec 1958 D'Oiveira captained a Transvaal Non-racial
Invitation XI against Peter Coetzee's White Transvaal XI. It was a 2
day friendly in Johannesburg. The opposition included Peter Walker
(Glamorgan and England) as well as other players with 1st class
experience. D'Oliveria blasted 48 in 40 mins and an excellent bowling
unit ripped through Coetzee's team as the Non-racial Invitation XI won
by an innings and 52 runs.
From what I can piece together it looks like D'Oliveira played at least
8 and possibly as many as 10 3 day matches for SACBOC that can
reasonably considered of 1st class standard looking at stats and the
narrative derived from press clippings. Even if the matches not
designated as "tests" by SACBOC are ignored, D'Oliveira played in 5
matches that probably should be retroactively given 1st class status.
His stats in them:
5 matches, 9 innings, 1 not out, 447 runs, 139 highest score, 55.87 avg,
1 ton, 3 50s, 3 catches. He took 7 wickets for 11 runs at an avg of
15.86. Best figures were 3 for 24.
This book is excellent. If you see a copy, grab it.
Bob Dubery
Mar 28, 2015, 6:16:33 AM3/28/15
to
On Monday, 16 March 2015 21:24:55 UTC+2, John Hall wrote:
> In message <16a4f56b-95a8-4c67...@googlegroups.com>, Bob
> Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
> >It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like
> >Haroon Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees
> >who have little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game.
> >Lorgat was provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been
> >regarded as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that
> >he played the game.
>
> That's a shame. How about you put that right?
Done. Though his stats were on Cricinfo and Cricket Archive.
> Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
> >It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like
> >Haroon Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees
> >who have little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game.
> >Lorgat was provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been
> >regarded as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that
> >he played the game.
>
> That's a shame. How about you put that right?
John Hall
Mar 28, 2015, 6:44:55 AM3/28/15
to
In message <3e36ab90-b39a-47be...@googlegroups.com>, Bob
Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
>On Monday, 16 March 2015 21:24:55 UTC+2, John Hall wrote:
>> In message <16a4f56b-95a8-4c67...@googlegroups.com>, Bob
>> Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
>> >It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like
>> >Haroon Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees
>> >who have little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game.
>> >Lorgat was provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been
>> >regarded as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that
>> >he played the game.
>>
>> That's a shame. How about you put that right?
>
>Done. Though his stats were on Cricinfo and Cricket Archive.
>
Thanks.
>On Monday, 16 March 2015 21:24:55 UTC+2, John Hall wrote:
>> In message <16a4f56b-95a8-4c67...@googlegroups.com>, Bob
>> Dubery <mega...@gmail.com> writes
>> >It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like
>> >Haroon Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees
>> >who have little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game.
>> >Lorgat was provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been
>> >regarded as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that
>> >he played the game.
>>
>> That's a shame. How about you put that right?
>
>Done. Though his stats were on Cricinfo and Cricket Archive.
>
Rodney Ulyate
Mar 28, 2015, 1:03:58 PM3/28/15
to
On Monday, 16 March 2015 22:07:36 UTC+2, sdavmor wrote:
> On 03/16/2015 11:41 AM, Bob Dubery wrote:
[...]
> On 03/16/2015 11:41 AM, Bob Dubery wrote:
> > Whilst you're at it track down a copy of Bruce Murray's "Caught Behind"
> > which details the lengths that the then government went to to undermine
> > D'Oliveira and to influence the MCC.
> > It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like Haroon
> > Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees who have
> > little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game. Lorgat was
> > provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been regarded
> > as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that he played
> > the game.
> The book by Peter Oborne "Basil D'Olivera cricket and conspiracy: the
> untold story" is an excellent read. Well researched, it also goes into
> detail abut the SA government shenanigans.
While we're recommending books, it would be remiss of me not to plug THE STORY OF AN AFRICAN GAME, Andre Odendaal's history of black cricket in South Africa:
> > which details the lengths that the then government went to to undermine
> > D'Oliveira and to influence the MCC.
> > It frustrates me intensely that the common perception of men like Haroon
> > Lorgat is that they are johnny come lately political appointees who have
> > little knowledge, appreciation and experience of the game. Lorgat was
> > provincial cricketer, playing 76 games that should have been regarded
> > as first class. His wikipedia page doesn't even mention that he played
> > the game.
> The book by Peter Oborne "Basil D'Olivera cricket and conspiracy: the
> untold story" is an excellent read. Well researched, it also goes into
> detail abut the SA government shenanigans.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Story-African-Game/dp/0864866380/?tag=hitsboo-20
It's that rare combination: exhaustive scholarship with coffee-table production values.
Rodney
0 new messages