Talking of Germans in South African cricket team
Don
My guesses:
1. Dale Steyn
2. Lance Kluesner
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Jacques Rudolph
5. Gary Kirsten
6. Peter Kirsten
Any others?
Don
Mike Holmans
<don2...@rediffmail.com> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
that these names are Dutch. If you plan on telling us that there is no
difference, we'd appreciate it if you would go to Amsterdam or
Rptterdam and tell the locals what you think. If you make the
arrangements in advance, some of us might even turn up to the funeral.
Cheers,
Mike
--
jzfredricks
> If you knew your history
hahaha, good one Mike! Good one!
Michael Banner
news:sbdhl49dlpstg99cc...@4ax.com...
Where did the Germans come from anyway Mike?
My understanding of current paleoanthropological theory is that
mitochondrial & Y chromosone DNA analysis indicates all humans on the face
of the planet are decended from people from Africa.
david.b...@gmail.com
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
Of the 6, 4 definitely have English as their 1st Language - P&G
Kirsten, Klusener, Kallis
Steyn & Rudolph are Afrikaans speaking.
The origin of their names is something else.
The Dutch started settling in the 17th century and the English,
Scottish and Welsh a 100 years later.
The Germans settled South West Africa in the 19th century (now
Namibia) and many crossed into SA.
So quite a number of Germans crossed the border and settled in SA.
The diamond and gold rush (late 19th century) brought out many others
from Germany, Ireland etc. (yes there were a lot) and from all over
Europe.
The two Anglo Boer Wars also brought out lots of Irishmen - some just
for the opportunity to kill the English. Some to fight for them.
After WW1 and WW2 many other Europeans settled in SA.
In the intervening years they married eachother which led to van de
Merwes that can't speak Afrikaans and Smith's that can't speak
English.
Don
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
>
> >Can any South African shed some light on them?
>
> >My guesses:
>
> >1. Dale Steyn
> >2. Lance Kluesner
> >3. Jacques Kallis
> >4. Jacques Rudolph
> >5. Gary Kirsten
> >6. Peter Kirsten
>
> >Any others?
>
> Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
I guess its you who needs to brush up on some History.
> that these names are Dutch.
Read this:
"My interest in genealogical research was to trace the origin of the
Steyn family in South Africa. Five Steyns emigrated from Europe to
South Africa. I am descendant from two: through my father from
Johannes Steyn (arriving at the Cape of Good Hope in 1748, probably
from Darmstad, Germany), and through my mother from Douwe Gerbens
Steyn, who arrived from Leeuwarden (Netherlands) around 1688, and who
was the construction manager ('baasmetselaar') of the fort built by
the Dutch in the Cape. Douwe married Maria Lozee, whose surname
indicates that at the time she lived in the slave quarters".
> If you plan on telling us that there is no
> difference,
There is. As in Pietersen, De Villiers, Cronje names are Dutch. So
better learn to comprehend messages
properly Mikey.
> we'd appreciate it if you would go to Amsterdam or
> Rptterdam and tell the locals what you think.
Why don't you do the same? Then i would know whose funeral would be
arranged. ;-)
Don
Don
>
> - Show quoted text -
I did not ask for a history brush-up on South Africa. I just asked a
few names whether they are
German or not.
I guess i also need to add Brett Schultz to that list.
Don
SultanOfSwing
Thanks for that interesting bit of South African history, David.
What about Jean-Paul Duminy? Is he of French origin?
His name at least sounds pretty "French" to the ears.
david.b...@gmail.com
Well I did not only write that for your benefit Don but anyway.
The names are probably German in origin but the heritage got lost many
years back.
Like most countries migrants got assimilated with time.
There is a lot of English, Dutch and French influence (language,
architecture, education etc.) still very visible.
The German influence in SA is not obvious.
david.b...@gmail.com
Could be.
Many French Huguenots settled in SA in the 1700s and 1800s.
In the Cape, where JP is from, they often started wine farms etc. Very
'French' towns like Franschoek started up as well. The French
architecture is obvious.
However the origin could be Dutch or even German.
JP's ancestors would probably have been a mixture of French Huguenots
and the indigenous population.
This would of damned JPs great-grandfather, grandfather, father etc to
be on the wrong side of the apartheid population
neo...@canada.com
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
>
> >Can any South African shed some light on them?
>
> >My guesses:
>
> >1. Dale Steyn
> >2. Lance Kluesner
> >3. Jacques Kallis
> >4. Jacques Rudolph
> >5. Gary Kirsten
> >6. Peter Kirsten
>
> >Any others?
>
> Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
> --
Yes and No. Besides the Dutch and Hugenots, there was and still is a
big German influence in Southern Africa, especially in Namibia which
was a German colony and they still speak German there to this day.
A lot of Germans also came to South Africa shortly after the second
world war and hence you do get quite a few German names especially in
the Pretoria area.
Historically there is also a big German influence in Eastern Holland
and Belgium (the latter is more or less where the Hugenots came from)
On that note look at the Blue Bulls Rugby team for this year
http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/team-squad-bluebulls.html
Guys like Wilhelm and Guthro Steenkamp and Derick Kuun are definitely
German names
neo...@canada.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
And possibly Keppler Wessels and Richard Snell
Don
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thats possibly because Germans are known to leave everything behind
when they migrate to the
"new world".....see the case of America....USA i mean....40% of US
White populations claims
German ancestry which would make you beleive national language of US
should be German but
its a known fact that Germans escaped Germany for USA to escape from
religious restrictions(the
Lutheran church et al) and in general to find a good new life outside
of packed Europe....German
origin Americans even fought valiantly against Hitler in WWII as part
of US Army.....and migrating
Germans to USA assimilated to the English culture and language easily
in USA leaving their older
religious beleifs and language behind....but even if you see the mid
western part of US now, you can
find typical German attitudes of beer-guzzling, sport-loving,
hardworking, a little reserved kind of people...
notably the states of Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Illinois
etc.....i assume same would have
been the case with Germans migrating to South Africa too.,.....
Don
Don
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree with Wessels but Snell is English if i am not wrong.
Don
david.b...@gmail.com
Could be Don.
A few of my Afrikaans friends have traceable lines back to Germany.
I suppose there is some noticable German influence. Churches, schools
etc.
Its just not as noticable as the English, French and Dutch.
mega...@gmail.com
All born in SA, schooled in SA, learned their cricket in SA, qualified
to play for SA.
Ian Jennings
>
> >Can any South African shed some light on them?
>
> >My guesses:
>
> >1. Dale Steyn
> >2. Lance Kluesner
> >3. Jacques Kallis
> >4. Jacques Rudolph
> >5. Gary Kirsten
> >6. Peter Kirsten
>
> >Any others?
>
> Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
> that these names are Dutch. If you plan on telling us that there is no
> difference, we'd appreciate it if you would go to Amsterdam or
> Rptterdam and tell the locals what you think. If you make the
> arrangements in advance, some of us might even turn up to the funeral.
Not quite right, Mike. Steyn is a Dutch surname, and Kallis Greek,
but the others are almost certainly originally German. Ironically,
ALL of them are English mother-tongue speakers.
Ian
Ian Jennings
> On Dec 29, 1:37 pm, Mike Holmans <m...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
> > <don200...@rediffmail.com> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
>
> > >Can any South African shed some light on them?
>
> > >My guesses:
>
> > >1. Dale Steyn
> > >2. Lance Kluesner
> > >3. Jacques Kallis
> > >4. Jacques Rudolph
> > >5. Gary Kirsten
> > >6. Peter Kirsten
>
> > >Any others?
>
> > Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
> > that these names are Dutch. If you plan on telling us that there is no
> > difference, we'd appreciate it if you would go to Amsterdam or
> > Rptterdam and tell the locals what you think. If you make the
> > arrangements in advance, some of us might even turn up to the funeral.
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Mike
> > --
>
> Of the 6, 4 definitely have English as their 1st Language - P&G
> Kirsten, Klusener, Kallis
> Steyn & Rudolph are Afrikaans speaking.
Oops - correction to my earlier post. Yes, Jacques Rudolph is an
Afrikaner, but not Dale Steyn. Steyn's family came from Zimbabwe a
few years back. Ever met an Afrikaner with the first name "Dale"? Me
neither...
Ian
Ian Jennings
> There is. As in Pietersen, De Villiers, Cronje names are Dutch. So
> better learn to comprehend messages
> properly Mikey.
De Villiers and Cronje are French surnames (the latter corrupted).
You (and Mike) would do well to write less confidently on matters of
which you are pretty ignorant.
Ian
Ian Jennings
> On that note look at the Blue Bulls Rugby team for this yearhttp://www.itsrugby.co.uk/team-squad-bluebulls.html
>
> Guys like Wilhelm and Guthro Steenkamp and Derick Kuun are definitely
> German names- Hide quoted text -
Steenkamp is definitely a Dutch, and not a German surname (it means
"stone camp" in Dutch and nothing at all in German), and Kuun may once
have been German, but not now - there is no "uu" letter combination in
German.
Ian
david.b...@gmail.com
Almost correct.
Rudoph went to an Afrikaans School in Pretoria
Steyn to Hans Merensky High school on Phalaborwa which I presume is
Afrikaans.
The rest are speak English as their 1st language
Ian Jennings
Thanks, Dave - I corrected myself elsewhere in this thread.
Interestingly enough, I noticed while reading the SMH online this
morning how many fringe Oz players have German surnames - Klinger,
Hilfenhaus, Hauritz, Bollinger. Any others?
Ian
anniy...@googlemail.com
Warne is half German too. His mum's a German.
rter...@gmail.com
Langer. Gilchrist and Hayden (Haydn), possibly. Though they are not
fringe players, obviously.
And don't let anyone tell you Bollinger is actually French, because
there is a champagne called Bollinger. Many German winemakers
emigrated to France in the 19th century and revived winemaking in the
Champagne region. That is why to this day, many chamagnes have German
names. Bollinger is one, Krug, Piper Heidsieck, Roederer, Taitinger
and Mumm are others.
Completely OT, of course, but it may serve you during the next few
days.
Happy Newyear, everyone.
RtH
Don
> On Dec 29, 7:34 am, Don <don200...@rediffmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is. As in Pietersen, De Villiers, Cronje names are Dutch. So
> > better learn to comprehend messages
> > properly Mikey.
>
> De Villiers and Cronje are French surnames (the latter corrupted).
Thanks Ian. Sorry just got confused all this time as lot of Dutch
names
start with the word "De". Yes this confirms it:
"The surname of DE VILLIERS was a locational name 'of Villiers' a spot
in France. The name was brought to England in the wake of the Norman
Conquest of 1066".
Does this also mean that De Villiers could have an English connection
too?
Also.....regarding Cronje
"Cronje is a Dutch spelling of the French family name Cronier, which
is classified as being of occupative origin. This name was introduced
to South Africa by the brothers Pierre and Estienne Cronier of
NOrmandy, who arrived in the Cape in 1698 aboard the vessel
"Driebergen". Etienne, who held the farms "Champagne" and "Olyvenhout"
near Wellington, never married an ddied without issue in 1718. PIerre
Cronier wed Suzanne Taillfert in 1709 and this union resulted in two
sons and four daughters. The brothers Cronier were among the several
hundred Huguenot refugees who settled in the Cape between 1688 and
1702. Notable bearers of the surname include General Pieter Arnoldus
Cronjé (1836 - 1911), who led the siege of Mafeking during the Second
Anglo Boer War".
I was right about Pitersen though, right?
Anyway, Mikey is far behind in history awareness. He thinks no German
ever came to South Africa and just coz Afrikaans is a mix of mainly
DUtch and English, he thinks only the Dutch constitute the WHites in
S.Africa other than the Brits.
Don
Don
Can you follow your own advise on not to talk confidently on matters u
don't know about.
Read this:
http://sit.monash.ac.za/staff/steyn/
"My interest in genealogical research was to trace the origin of the
Steyn family in South Africa. Five Steyns emigrated from Europe to
South Africa. I am descendant from two: through my father from
Johannes Steyn (arriving at the Cape of Good Hope in 1748, probably
from Darmstad, Germany), and through my mother from Douwe Gerbens
Steyn, who arrived from Leeuwarden (Netherlands) around 1688, and who
was the construction manager ('baasmetselaar') of the fort built by
the Dutch in the Cape. Douwe married Maria Lozee, whose surname
indicates that at the time she lived in the slave quarters"
Gosh i have posted this thrice today!!!!!!
Regarding Kallis: read this::
http://boards.msn.ancestry.com/surnames.kallis/6.1/mb.ashx
"Hi Thomas,
my name is Thomas Kallis too :) I live in Germany and here you don't
find the name very often. My family has around 30 members and living
in the southwest of Germany.
Regarding hungarian Kallis' I can't help you, sorry.
My ancestors emigrate as colonists (around 1820) from Germany to
Bessarabia"
Don
Don
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dude Hauritz is a jew (possibly from Germany but a jew nonetheless).
Now stop making sweeping statements will ya?
Don
sdavmor
[snip]
> I was right about Pitersen though, right?
IIRC Pietersen's paternal lineage is mostly if not 100% Danish not
Dutch, despite the spelling.
--
Cheers, SDM -- a 21st Century Schizoid Man
Systems Theory internet music project: <www.systemstheory.net>
on MySpace: <www.myspace.com/systemstheory>
on Last FM: <www.last.fm/music/Systems+Theory>
get "Codetalkers" *free* at <www.mikedickson.org.uk/codetalkers>
NP: nothing
Ian Jennings
You're not suggesting that these are the cricketers, are you? (I hope
not). Let me explain why your web research loses to someone who knows
the countries, the languages, AND does the web research: There may
have been the occasional family with the surname Steyn in what now
constitutes Germany, but it's a very very rare surname there. The
German variant is usually "Stein". On the other hand, Steyn is a very
common Dutch surname. Easy!
Ian Jennings
How exactly does Hauritz being a Jew exclude the possibility of his
surname being of German origin? I am aware that there are not too
many Jews in Germany in 2008, but there used to be quite a few,
once...
Unknown
<mpba...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Mike Holmans" <mi...@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:sbdhl49dlpstg99cc...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
>> <don2...@rediffmail.com> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
>>
>>>Can any South African shed some light on them?
>>>
>>>My guesses:
>>>
>>>1. Dale Steyn
>>>2. Lance Kluesner
>>>3. Jacques Kallis
>>>4. Jacques Rudolph
>>>5. Gary Kirsten
>>>6. Peter Kirsten
>>>
>>>
>>>Any others?
>>
>> Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
>> that these names are Dutch. If you plan on telling us that there is no
>> difference, we'd appreciate it if you would go to Amsterdam or
>> Rptterdam and tell the locals what you think. If you make the
>> arrangements in advance, some of us might even turn up to the funeral.
>
>Where did the Germans come from anyway Mike?
>
>My understanding of current paleoanthropological theory is that
>mitochondrial & Y chromosone DNA analysis indicates all humans on the face
>of the planet are decended from people from Africa.
>
They tested the dna of a bbc radio programme crew, and everyone had
some sub saharan dna, even Paidrig O'Brien.
Ian Jennings
> Don wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > I was right about Pitersen though, right?
>
> IIRC Pietersen's paternal lineage is mostly if not 100% Danish not
> Dutch, despite the spelling.
That would surprise me, given that Pietersen is a common Dutch
surname, and not a Danish one. But who knows?
Ian
Ian Jennings
>
> http://boards.msn.ancestry.com/surnames.kallis/6.1/mb.ashx
>
> "Hi Thomas,
>
> my name is Thomas Kallis too :) I live in Germany and here you don't
> find the name very often. My family has around 30 members and living
> in the southwest of Germany.
> Regarding hungarian Kallis' I can't help you, sorry.
>
> My ancestors emigrate as colonists (around 1820) from Germany to
> Bessarabia"
Well, I confess I'm surprised to hear that there are German Kallis's.
So maybe you're right there, Don! (I can't find any evidence on the
net for my belief that Kallis is of Greek origin).
Ian
Ian Jennings
> Langer. Gilchrist and Hayden (Haydn), possibly. Though they are not
> fringe players, obviously.
Gilchrist doesn't sound German to me, but Langer does, and Hayden's a
possible. What about Noffke and Pomersbach? How long before Oz
fields an all-German team?
Ian
Wog George
"Don" <don2...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:823aca6d-4fd8-4de6...@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dude Hauritz is a jew (possibly from Germany but a jew nonetheless).
> Now stop making sweeping statements will ya?
>
Jew (jo-o-)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the
ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
Nathan is clearly not 3. Neither 1 nor 2 in themselves preclude Nathan from
being German (irrespective of his actual heritage). What reasoning, if any,
led to your remark?
--
George
"We've got Jews and perverts and bullies and all kinds of sinners in this
town, Sister Ann." - Eric Cartman - 26 July 2000
kenh...@hotmail.com
I believe Phil Hughes traces his ancestry back to German migrants who
came here with the surname Hoost, later anglicised to Hughes.
Likewise Rogers' family came to Australia from Germany via South
Africa, being part of the Rutgers clan.
Of course, the German influence spreads throughout the the world of
cricket, Tendulkar tracing back to the Westphalia region of Germany on
his fathers side to ten den Klaar.
Higgs
Unknown
>On Dec 30, 8:35=A0am, Ian Jennings <idjenni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 29, 2:32=A0pm, "rterh...@gmail.com" <rterh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Langer. Gilchrist and Hayden (Haydn), possibly. Though they are not
>> > fringe players, obviously.
>>
>> Gilchrist doesn't sound German to me, but Langer does, and Hayden's a
>> possible. =A0What about Noffke and Pomersbach? =A0How long before Oz
>> fields an all-German team?
>>
>> Ian
>
>
>I believe Phil Hughes traces his ancestry back to German migrants who
>came here with the surname Hoost, later anglicised to Hughes.
>
>Likewise Rogers' family came to Australia from Germany via South
>Africa, being part of the Rutgers clan.
>
>Of course, the German influence spreads throughout the the world of
>cricket, Tendulkar tracing back to the Westphalia region of Germany on
>his fathers side to ten den Klaar.
>
>
>Higgs
That sparked off a thought. My old Westfalia kombi was named after a
place.
Heres a tip. If you see one in front when your driving. Don't try to
pass it. That poor sod needs all of the road just to keep in a
straight line. If you see one behind, don't brake hard. The bastards
have no servo, and the brakes are crap.
eusebius
Ian Jennings wrote:
-
> >
> > Dude Hauritz is a jew (possibly from Germany but a jew nonetheless).
> > Now stop making sweeping statements will ya?
>
> How exactly does Hauritz being a Jew exclude the possibility of his
> surname being of German origin? I am aware that there are not too
> many Jews in Germany in 2008, but there used to be quite a few,
> once...
Don is a Jew- he's a Jew from Tamil Nadu
eusebius
snip
Kallis is a Greek name, sorry. That Greeks are spread all over the
world, especially in Germany, and that there is a centuries old
diaspora has nothing to do with its Greekness or non-Greekness.
Jacques Kallis' antecedents may have migrated from Germany to Zuid
Afrika (or given his given name, more likely France, as a guess).
Still a Greek name though.
eusebius
>
> Well, I confess I'm surprised to hear that there are German Kallis's.
> So maybe you're right there, Don! (I can't find any evidence on the
> net for my belief that Kallis is of Greek origin).
>
> Ian
I personally know Greek Kallises.
Try this: http://tinyurl.com/9lxw7r
or: http://www.kallis.co.uk/
or: http://ebooks.ebookmall.com/author/aristotle-kallis-ebooks.htm
That took me whole minutes of research
eusebius
> Don wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > I was right about Pitersen though, right?
>
> IIRC Pietersen's paternal lineage is mostly if not 100% Danish not
> Dutch, despite the spelling.
Norwegian.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
--== SNIP ==--
Don, I gotta say you started a very interesting thread here. Some of
the responses to this thread have been very informative. And it was a
pleasure to see you put some prima-donnas in their place - thanks
mostly to Google I'm sure.
You see, I don't believe there have been or there will be many
opportunities to congratulate you for good discussion :-) ;-) so I
wanted to cash in on this one.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
eusebius
Once in a lifetime opportunity
kenh...@hotmail.com
PK Sen
Higgs
CDK
At no point does he suggest that there were no German immigrants to
South Africa. But then you are pretty poor at getting your facts right.
You are the Indian Ke3n Higgs and I claim my 5 krugerrand
CDK
Jayen
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
>
> >Can any South African shed some light on them?
>
> >My guesses:
>
> >1. Dale Steyn
> >2. Lance Kluesner
> >3. Jacques Kallis
> >4. Jacques Rudolph
> >5. Gary Kirsten
> >6. Peter Kirsten
>
> >Any others?
>
> Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
> that these names are Dutch. If you plan on telling us that there is no
> difference,
Gah!
You say tom-ah-to, he says tom-ay-to.
You say Dutch, he says Deutsch.
Regards,
Jayen
kenh...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are the Australian StraightDrive and I claim my 5 free seminars
Higgs
Gilly's Danda
> Can any South African shed some light on them?
>
> My guesses:
>
> 1. Dale Steyn
> 2. Lance Kluesner
> 3. Jacques Kallis
> 4. Jacques Rudolph
> 5. Gary Kirsten
> 6. Peter Kirsten
Good post Shridhar. Now PBOASYG.
A
CDK
They have seminars in dunny cleaning?????
CDK
Don
Perhaps your point abt him being greek can be validated by this:
http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Kallis-family-history-sct.ashx
"Kallis Name Meaning and History
Greek: from a shortened form of the personal name Kallistos ‘best’ or
a reduced form of a patronymic formed from it.
variant spelling of Hungarian Kalis."
From my reserach, it looks like Kallis name is found in Germany
(SouthWest Germany Bordering France), France,
Hungary(possibly migrants from Germany), Bohemia and Greece. From my
analysis looks like the name may
have originated somewhere in Southwest Germany-France border and then
the migrants to Eastern Europe(Hungary et al) during the war days and
right upto Greece may have spread the name.
Frankly, at first go, the name sounds very French.
Don
Don
> On Dec 29, 6:30 am, Don wrote:
>
> --== SNIP ==--
>
> Don, I gotta say you started a very interesting thread here. Some of
> the responses to this thread have been very informative. And it was a
> pleasure to see you put some prima-donnas in their place - thanks
> mostly to Google I'm sure.
Thanks Sanjiv. Its not only google but one should have an inherent
interest
too in knowing abt the origin of the various names and history
associated
with it which motivates one to find out the origins of the same.
> You see, I don't believe there have been or there will be many
> opportunities to congratulate you for good discussion :-) ;-) so I
> wanted to cash in on this one.
I have originated quiet a few good discussions but sometimes my
hitting the nail so to speak irritates quiet a few in rsc who are not
entirely ready to accept certain hard truths.
Don
>
> Sanjiv Karmarkar
eusebius
Unlikely- your definition above gives the clue. It is derived from
Greek. Greek culture incidentally being older than all the others you
mention. Also, for the last millenium or so, migration patterns have
been overwhelmingly from Greece, not to. So what has happened, is that
over the last 2 or 3 centuries, individuals with that surname have
migrated from Greece and Greek speaking enclaves (e.g. from Anatolia,
Cyprus, Egypt, even Russia, Italy and France) all over Europe and
practically the rest of the world.
That there might be varying etymologies is not impossible- I don't
doubt that there are several Greek ones even. Kallis could be a
shortened form of several Greek names.
Don
Dude if i take this theory, there should be lot of common names
between Greece
and other parts of Europe which is not the case. The Germanic
population did not
originate in Greece, in fact it originated in North Germany and spread
to diff. parts
of Europe. If you talk abt Roman migration to NorthWest Europe i agree
with you.
I agree though that Greek culture that preceeds the Roman culture
spread to Europe
and later the Roman culture spread through Roman conquests. But the
greeks did
not migrate in huge numbers to Northern Europe like the Romans. In all
this though,
we are forgetting the Celts who if certain history sources are to be
beleived, cut away from
Indo-Irananian branch around the Afghan-Iran border and spread through
SouthEastern
Europe into Continental and Western parts of Europe. So there could be
lot of Celtic
names which are quiet common across South eastern Europe, Continental
and Western
coastal Europe. Kallis, FYI, sounds like a celtic name as is Don. Some
history sources
say that Don originates from Danu, a common Goddess of the Indo-
Iranian branch of Aryans
and Kallis has resemblance to Kalli which is another name for Danu. It
may sound far-fetched
but you can never deny it all the same. Some other celtic names are
Daniel, Morgan,
Cullinan, Callaghan etc.
In this context, there is quiet a chance that Kallis could have
originated from a celtic branch
of South Germany(where lot of celts settled down) or even France or
the Franco-German-Swiss-
North Italian border(another common area for celtic populations).
Don
>
> That there might be varying etymologies is not impossible- I don't
> doubt that there are several Greek ones even. Kallis could be a
> shortened form of several Greek names.- Hide quoted text -
Albert Swearengen
420e-9069-7...@e22g2000vbe.googlegroups.com:
> On Dec 29, 7:02 am, david.baker...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Dec 29, 1:37 pm, Mike Holmans <m...@jackalope.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
>> > <don200...@rediffmail.com> tapped the keyboard and brought
forth:
>>
>> > >Can any South African shed some light on them?
>>
>> > >My guesses:
>>
>> > >1. Dale Steyn
>> > >2. Lance Kluesner
>> > >3. Jacques Kallis
>> > >4. Jacques Rudolph
>> > >5. Gary Kirsten
>> > >6. Peter Kirsten
>>
>> > >Any others?
>>
>> > Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history,
you'd know
>> > that these names are Dutch. If you plan on telling us that
there is no
>> > difference, we'd appreciate it if you would go to Amsterdam
or
>> > Rptterdam and tell the locals what you think. If you make the
>> > arrangements in advance, some of us might even turn up to the
funeral.
>>
>> > Cheers,
>>
>> > Mike
>> > --
>>
>> Of the 6, 4 definitely have English as their 1st Language - P&G
>> Kirsten, Klusener, Kallis
>> Steyn & Rudolph are Afrikaans speaking.
>
> Oops - correction to my earlier post. Yes, Jacques Rudolph is
an
> Afrikaner, but not Dale Steyn. Steyn's family came from
Zimbabwe a
> few years back. Ever met an Afrikaner with the first name
"Dale"? Me
> neither...
>
> Ian
>
Steyn is Afrikaner through and through.
Many South African Afrikaners moved north to Zimbabwe - remember
the nationalistic Defense Minister of Rhodesia yes he too was an
Afrikaner import Van Der Biyl or something.
Eddo Brandes another Afrikaner import.
--
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Albert Swearengen
@k19g2000yqg.googlegroups.com:
> On Dec 29, 9:41 am, david.baker...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Dec 29, 4:28 pm, Ian Jennings <idjenni...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 29, 6:37 am, Mike Holmans <m...@jackalope.demon.co.uk>
>> > Not quite right, Mike. Steyn is a Dutch surname, and Kallis
Greek,
>> > but the others are almost certainly originally German.
Ironically,
>> > ALL of them are English mother-tongue speakers.
>>
>> > Ian
>>
>> Almost correct.
>> Rudoph went to an Afrikaans School in Pretoria
>> Steyn to Hans Merensky High school on Phalaborwa which I
presume is
>> Afrikaans.
>>
>> The rest are speak English as their 1st language
>
> Thanks, Dave - I corrected myself elsewhere in this thread.
> Interestingly enough, I noticed while reading the SMH online
this
> morning how many fringe Oz players have German surnames -
Klinger,
> Hilfenhaus, Hauritz, Bollinger. Any others?
>
> Ian
>
Isnt Klinger Lebanese, the MASH character Max Klinger was...
Geico Caveman
> On Dec 29, 8:12 am, neo...@canada.com wrote:
>
>> On that note look at the Blue Bulls Rugby team for this
>> yearhttp://www.itsrugby.co.uk/team-squad-bluebulls.html
>>
>> Guys like Wilhelm and Guthro Steenkamp and Derick Kuun are definitely
>> German names- Hide quoted text -
>
> Steenkamp is definitely a Dutch, and not a German surname (it means
> "stone camp" in Dutch and nothing at all in German), and Kuun may once
> have been German, but not now - there is no "uu" letter combination in
> German.
>
> Ian
Might be an attempt to mimic the umlaut.
kenh...@hotmail.com
I wouldn't have a clue about that, you'd best ask Chuckwit
Higgs
CDK
In your line of work I would have thought you knew all about it Kenny or
should I say paul or is it Tim?
CDK
kenh...@hotmail.com
In my line of work, I don't have to clean dunnys.
Do you have to in yours?
As you well know, the dunny cleaning business was a furphy spread by
Chuckwit that gained currency amongst those who wanted to repeat it,
Higgs
Higgs
eusebius
No, because there are no Celtic names across SE Europe, continental
and Western coastal Europe, even if celts were present in all these
regions. There are no celtic surnames in Turkey either (or Afghanistan
for that matter).
Surnames in Europe were quite (note spelling) rareish in the 16th
century, don't forget. The Celtic culture as such died out a couple of
millenia ago. Pockets survived here and there (a point vigorously
debated by ethnologists) but none of them had celtic surnames, for the
simple reason that celts didn't have surnames. The use of multiple
names in Europe was pioneered by the Romans, and continued by the
Greek Byzantines. The first real surnames in the west were of the high
nobility- but even William the Conqueror didn't have one (unless it
was, 'then Conqueror). Other than Hohenstaufen, Capet, Plantagenet and
the like, surnames were generally adopted from the place of origin, as
in 'Da Pierluigi' or 'De Blois'. Then professions were added. None of
this relates to the by then extinct celtic culture (even if some
individuals on the continent may have had some celtic antecedents).
The name Kallis I feel most likely precedes the general use of
surnames elsewhere in non-Byzantine Europe.
To say that celtic surnames are common in continental Europe is pretty
bizarre even by your standards.
By the way, Romans migrated to parts of modern England and northern
France in moderate numbers, but these colonial outposts were fairly
tenuous and were added to by several tribes both native and migrating
(the English one virtually evaporated completely) whereas Greek
migration to Germany and France is centuries old and has been pretty
constant.
There are an awful lot of names with Greek origins. There are very few
names with an undisputed celtic origin outside the British Isles, and
even a good deal of Irish names are not celtic. You won't be able to
find a single Greek name with a celtic etymology.
> In this context, there is quiet a chance that Kallis could have
> originated from a celtic branch
> of South Germany(where lot of celts settled down) or even France or
> the Franco-German-Swiss-
> North Italian border(another common area for celtic populations).
>
> Don
>
Not one person in that area would be aware of any celtic roots, for
the simple fact that the celtic culture of the area (the Halstatt
culture) is well and truly extinct. Cultural celts had no surnames,
therefore it is absurd to think that any surnames in the area are
celtic. The celtic language spoken here is now utterly non-existent in
the area, therefore it is improbable that there are any surnames with
celtic influence originating there.
CDK
No, I guess your seminars would be on the Dewey decimal system
CDK
>
> Higgs
Don
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't want to debate with a person who is foolish enough to think
Celtic traces
are extinct in Europe.
Before leaving this foolish debate with u, want to
add.................
if celtic culture were extinct, how do u explain patriarchal system in
Europe?
if celtic culture were extinct, how come celtic languages like Gaelic
are still surviving?
if celtic culture were extinct, how come people in europe still have
names like don, daniel, morgan,
cullinan, callaghan, donna, donald etc?
how come celtic names of rivers like danube still exist?
U bufoon, u must be biased against celtic culture as a whole. Go to
Ireland and Western Scotland
or Northwestern France and see the celtic culture still being
practised there. BTW, the name Dane
or Danish itself is Celtic. Go suck on that!!!!!!!!
Don
eusebius
Fool, this is not a debate, as if anyone would be foolish enough to
debate with you. Merely setting the record straight. Imagine thinking
that celtic culture is alive in continental Europe (other than
possibly a smidgin in Bretagne- but that is hardly real celtic
culture. They don't sacrifice any virgins there- otherwise you'd be in
trouble if you passed that way)
>
> Before leaving this foolish debate with u, want to
> add.................
>
> if celtic culture were extinct, how do u explain patriarchal system in
> Europe?
What?
> if celtic culture were extinct, how come celtic languages like Gaelic
> are still surviving?
Not in continental Europe. Hardly proof of celtic 'culture'- culture
is more than language. Even so, where is gaelic spoken in SE Europe?
On the Italian border? Just so I know you are a clueless orangutan (a
compliment for those worshipping Hanuman)
> if celtic culture were extinct, how come people in europe still have
> names like don, daniel, morgan,
> cullinan, callaghan, donna, donald etc?
How did you work out how to type?
> how come celtic names of rivers like danube still exist?
Because the Romans adopted it? But Romans didn't adopt celtic surnames
for themselves.
The fact that some names might reflect a certain culture doesn't mean
that that culture is living.
No Greek names that I'm aware of are celtic in origin (although some
words may have been similar in the respective languages, since they
are both Indo-European). Some Greek toponyms however are of Pelasgian,
Phrygian and Minoan provenance. The Pelasgian, Phrygian and Minoan
cultures are extinct. As is the Etruscan, although some Etruscan
toponyms still remain in Italy.
>
> U bufoon, u must be biased against celtic culture as a whole. Go to
> Ireland and Western Scotland
> or Northwestern France and see the celtic culture still being
> practised there. BTW, the name Dane
> or Danish itself is Celtic. Go suck on that!!!!!!!!
>
> Don-
My great-great grandfather was from Ireland and my great grandfather
was born in Scotland.
Kallis is not and never has had anything to do with anything celtic,
you malodorous dweeb.
It seems we cannot expect any more than your usual misinformation,
confusion, and antediluvian racial theories that make Chamberlain look
like Einstein by comparison.
Keep up the research, brainbox!
Ian Jennings
I'm always happy to be proved right. If you can do it for me again,
please do!
Ian Jennings
> Ian Jennings <idjenni...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:9521442a-c6d4-
> 420e-9069-7d57641e0...@e22g2000vbe.googlegroups.com:
Not quite right. He is an Afrikaner, but most Afrikaners who
emigrated north stopped using Afrikaans as their mother-tongues. This
was the case with Steyn's family. So he's not an Afrikaner through-
and-through, as you say.
Ian Jennings
The Danish or Norwegian version is Pedersen. Pietersen is the Dutch
version.
Ian Jennings
wrote:
I'm pretty sure you're right, Caveman.
Don
> On Dec 30, 11:12 pm, Don <don200...@rediffmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 30, 5:23 pm, eusebius <eusebiu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't want to debate with a person who is foolish enough to think
> > Celtic traces
> > are extinct in Europe.
>
> Fool, this is not a debate, as if anyone would be foolish enough to
> debate with you.
And you are precisely doing the same, u utter nincompoop.
> Merely setting the record straight. Imagine thinking
> that celtic culture is alive in continental Europe (other than
> possibly a smidgin in Bretagne- but that is hardly real celtic
> culture. They don't sacrifice any virgins there- otherwise you'd be in
> trouble if you passed that way)
Yes, they must have adopted the culture coz of dick wank virgins like
u or
ur ancestors in the celtic land of potato fat heads, ireland.
> What?
Never mind, u blinking tubelight.
> Not in continental Europe. Hardly proof of celtic 'culture'- culture
> is more than language. Even so, where is gaelic spoken in SE Europe?
> On the Italian border?
Ur not only dumb but naturally malnutritioned in ur entire nerves
right up to ur brain.
Where did i ever say that gaelic was spoken in SE Europe or Italian
border!!!!
> Just so I know you are a clueless orangutan (a
> compliment for those worshipping Hanuman)
Yeah now u abuse the Gods too. You utter disgrace to humanity. Your
mom must have had the better part of u gone to her limbs while giving
u birth.
> How did you work out how to type?
I had to work at it to abuse bastards like u.
> Because the Romans adopted it? But Romans didn't adopt celtic surnames
> for themselves.
Yeah convenience at its best display. Wherever u can't disprove me, u
start using words like adopting culture and so on. Wanker!!!
> No Greek names that I'm aware of are celtic in origin
As if i said that, u blind faggot. Learn to read properly if they ever
taught you that in your 3rd grade schools.
> My great-great grandfather was from Ireland and my great grandfather
> was born in Scotland.
>
> Kallis is not and never has had anything to do with anything celtic,
That you would never know coz your grandfather and great great
grandpas were all crooks exiled from Britian by the English. How will
crooks ever know what their culture is? If ever they could be free
from looting and thieving people.
> Keep up the research, brainbox!
And you keep up the mindless drivel all the same!
Don
Don
> On Dec 30, 8:35 am, Ian Jennings <idjenni...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 29, 2:32 pm, "rterh...@gmail.com" <rterh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Langer. Gilchrist and Hayden (Haydn), possibly. Though they are not
> > > fringe players, obviously.
>
> > Gilchrist doesn't sound German to me, but Langer does, and Hayden's a
> > possible. What about Noffke and Pomersbach? How long before Oz
> > fields an all-German team?
>
> > Ian
>
> I believe Phil Hughes traces his ancestry back to German migrants who
> came here with the surname Hoost, later anglicised to Hughes.
>
> Likewise Rogers' family came to Australia from Germany via South
> Africa, being part of the Rutgers clan.
>
> Of course, the German influence spreads throughout the the world of
> cricket, Tendulkar tracing back to the Westphalia region of Germany on
> his fathers side to ten den Klaar.
>
> Higgs
HAHAHAHA go Higgsy! Gilchrist is an out and out welsh name. Hayden is
distinctly English. Name endings don't say a thing about where a
person is from. For ex: you can find lot of names ending with "er" in
england too like ryder, butler etc....as per warped logic put by a few
here, they should all be Germans :-)
Don
Unknown
<idjen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 29, 11:14=A0am, Albert Swearengen <t...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> Ian Jennings <idjenni...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:9521442a-c6d4-
>> 420e-9069-7d57641e0...@e22g2000vbe.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 29, 7:02=A0am, david.baker...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Dec 29, 1:37=A0pm, Mike Holmans <m...@jackalope.demon.co.uk>
>> > Oops - correction to my earlier post. =A0Yes, Jacques Rudolph is
>> an
>> > Afrikaner, but not Dale Steyn. =A0Steyn's family came from
>> Zimbabwe a
>> > few years back. =A0Ever met an Afrikaner with the first name
>> "Dale"? =A0Me
>> > neither...
>>
>> > Ian
>>
>> Steyn is Afrikaner through and through.
>> Many South African Afrikaners moved north to Zimbabwe =A0- remember
>> the nationalistic Defense Minister of Rhodesia yes he too was an
>> Afrikaner import Van Der Biyl or something.
>> Eddo Brandes another Afrikaner import.
>
>Not quite right. He is an Afrikaner, but most Afrikaners who
>emigrated north stopped using Afrikaans as their mother-tongues. This
>was the case with Steyn's family. So he's not an Afrikaner through-
>and-through, as you say.
He spoke about that during an interview. He said his family were
Afrikaneers and that all his mates played rugby where he lived.
Wog George
"Don" <don2...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
news:91fdb96a-df97-49bb...@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
<snip>
>
> Yes, they must have adopted the culture coz of dick wank virgins like
> u or
> ur ancestors in the celtic land of potato fat heads, ireland.
>
>
> Never mind, u blinking tubelight.
>
>
> Ur not only dumb but naturally malnutritioned in ur entire nerves
> right up to ur brain.
>
>
> Yeah now u abuse the Gods too. You utter disgrace to humanity. Your
> mom must have had the better part of u gone to her limbs while giving
> u birth.
>
>
> I had to work at it to abuse bastards like u.
>
>
> As if i said that, u blind faggot. Learn to read properly if they ever
> taught you that in your 3rd grade schools.
>
>
> That you would never know coz your grandfather and great great
> grandpas were all crooks exiled from Britian by the English. How will
> crooks ever know what their culture is? If ever they could be free
> from looting and thieving people.
>
Presumably you started this thread purely as a vehicle for this kind of
abuse. You certainly weren't looking for any healthy debate, otherwise you
would have addressed the two posters who challenged your uninformed outburst
regarding Jews and whether they can have German names or even be German.
No, you are a stoopid ignorant Philistine troll cunt. End of discussion.
--
George
"We've got Jews and perverts and bullies and all kinds of sinners in this
town, Sister Ann." - Eric Cartman - 26 July 2000
Sanjiv Karmarkar
> Any name ending with -sen is, as I understand it, either Danish or
> Norwegian.
Or Bengali.
Sanjiv Karmarkar
Don
wrote:
> "Don" <don200...@rediffmail.com> wrote in message
And your scientific brain just figured it all out eh?
> You certainly weren't looking for any healthy debate, otherwise you
> would have addressed the two posters who challenged your uninformed outburst
> regarding Jews and whether they can have German names or even be German.
I said Jews are jews and going by their history they won't certainly
like to be called
germans. I did agree Hauritz could be from Germany originally but not
originally
a "german" though or atleast like to be known as!!!!
> No, you are a stoopid ignorant Philistine troll cunt. End of discussion.
Another example of an Aussie losing his screws completely after the
series loss.
Don
>
> --
> George
> "We've got Jews and perverts and bullies and all kinds of sinners in this
> town, Sister Ann." - Eric Cartman - 26 July 2000- Hide quoted text -
johnbur...@gmail.com
> > On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
> > <don200...@rediffmail.com> tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
> >
> > >Can any South African shed some light on them?
> >
> > >My guesses:
> >
> > >1. Dale Steyn
> > >2. Lance Kluesner
> > >3. Jacques Kallis
> > >4. Jacques Rudolph
> > >5. Gary Kirsten
> > >6. Peter Kirsten
> >
> > >Any others?
> >
> > Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
> > that these names are Dutch. If you plan on telling us that there is no
> > difference, we'd appreciate it if you would go to Amsterdam or
> > Rptterdam and tell the locals what you think. If you make the
> > arrangements in advance, some of us might even turn up to the funeral.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Mike
> > --
>
> Of the 6, 4 definitely have English as their 1st Language - P&G
> Kirsten, Klusener, Kallis
> Steyn & Rudolph are Afrikaans speaking.
>
> The Dutch started settling in the 17th century and the English,
> Scottish and Welsh a 100 years later.
> The Germans settled South West Africa in the 19th century (now
> Namibia) and many crossed into SA.
> So quite a number of Germans crossed the border and settled in SA.
> The diamond and gold rush (late 19th century) brought out many others
> from Germany, Ireland etc. (yes there were a lot) and from all over
> Europe.
> The two Anglo Boer Wars also brought out lots of Irishmen - some just
> for the opportunity to kill the English. Some to fight for them.
> After WW1 and WW2 many other Europeans settled in SA.
>
> In the intervening years they married eachother which led to van de
> Merwes that can't speak Afrikaans and Smith's that can't speak
> English.
Ahhh, those would be the Smiffs, wiff two Fs.
RH156RH
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:30:23 -0800 (PST), Don
> >Can any South African shed some light on them?
> >
> >My guesses:
> >
> >1. Dale Steyn
> >2. Lance Kluesner
> >3. Jacques Kallis
> >4. Jacques Rudolph
> >5. Gary Kirsten
> >6. Peter Kirsten
> >
> >
> >Any others?
>
> Almost certainly none of them. If you knew your history, you'd know
> that these names are Dutch. If you plan on telling us that there is no
> difference, we'd appreciate it if you would go to Amsterdam or
> Rptterdam and tell the locals what you think. If you make the
> arrangements in advance, some of us might even turn up to the funeral.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
Low German or Low Saxon[b] is a West Germanic language spoken mainly in Northern Germany and the northeastern part of the Netherlands. It is also spoken to a lesser extent in the German diaspora worldwide (e.g. Plautdietsch).
Low German is most closely related to Frisian and English, with which it forms the North Sea Germanic group of the West Germanic languages. Like Dutch, it is spoken north of the Benrath and Uerdingen isoglosses, while (Standard) German is spoken south of those lines. Like Frisian, English, Dutch and the North Germanic languages, Low German has not undergone the High German consonant shift, as opposed to High German.
The Low German dialects spoken in the Netherlands are mostly referred to as Low Saxon, those spoken in northwestern Germany (Lower Saxony, Westphalia, Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg, Bremen, and Saxony-Anhalt west of the Elbe) as either Low German or Low Saxon, and those spoken in northeastern Germany (Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Brandenburg, and Saxony-Anhalt east of the Elbe) mostly as Low German. This is because northwestern Germany and the northeastern Netherlands were the area of settlement of the Saxons (Old Saxony), while Low German spread to northeastern Germany through eastward migration of Low German speakers into areas with a Slavic-speaking population (Germania Slavica).
It has been estimated that Low German has approximately 6.7 million native speakers – 5 million in Germany, primarily Northern Germany,[1] and 1.7 million in the Netherlands.[2] A 2005 study by H. Bloemhof, Taaltelling Nedersaksisch, showed 1.8 million spoke it daily in the Netherlands.[11]