Robin Singh interview -- unbelievable!!
samarth harish shah
all his team-mates! Azhar, Mongia, Ramesh, the tailenders, the bowlers...
everyone!!
From The Hindu (http://www.hinduonline.com/today/stories/0708028a.htm)
-Samarth [ dazed... whatever happened to good old soft-spoken Robin
Singh??? ].
----------
Thus spake Robin Singh
By Our Special Correspondent
MUMBAI, JULY 7. The Chinese Lounge, Khar
Gymkhana, in the city's suburb, has been Robin Singh's
favourite eating joint for some years now. Friend
`Polly' was a good host to the Robin Singh couple, who
spent Tuesday night on their return from Trinidad
after visiting his ailing father. ``I turned a vegetarian ten
years ago,'' said Robin with a clear West Indian
accent as he helped himself to vegetable dumpling, stuffed
mushroom, piping hot cottage cheese and spicy
potatoes dipped in garlic sauce. So far, so good.
Indians know that Robin had a reasonably good
outing (he played six matches, scored 157 runs and picked
8 wickets) in the World Cup. He has been one of
the most underrated all- rounders for more than a decade
now.
``One has to prove oneself in international
cricket to be judged as a genuine all-rounder. I was a grafter
before, but now I have adapted my game to one-day
cricket,'' he said. These were the first words as he
`poured his story of the World Cup.' at an
informal get-together at the Khar Gymkhana.
Not for a moment in two hours (he and his wife
joined the party at close to 9 p.m. and left at midnight) did
Robin give the impression of being an angry man,
while relating his side, which he emphasised ``are only
facts'' and not to be construed as ``critical
comments''.
Obviously, he was disappointed about the tour
selectors' decision to drop him for the match against
England. ``I came to know of this only on the
morning of the match. But I would like to clarify one point. I was
not injured. In fact I fielded for one over in
that match. I was told by many that there was a remark in the
internet that I was injured and hence I was
dropped.''
Robin is an established all-rounder now, and as
he himself said would not call it ``quits'' until someone
proves better than him and takes his place. He
answered questions with clarity of thought and without fear.
One such explanation went like this. ``Lot of
people have said that the defeat against Zimbabwe put India out
of the semifinal. I think we should have won the
first game against South Africa and the second game, too.''
``The first game was more important than the
second, because in any tournament, the first game is always
important. Considering the position we were in
(190 for 1 and 12 overs to go) we should have easily got close
to 275. We did not bat well enough to get there.
We got 30 runs in the last three overs. Looking at the game
against South Africa from a player's point of
view, they were definitely down.
``They did not know what to do. We had nine
wickets. They were just hoping they would not have to chase
300. Their bowler's did not look like getting
wickets. And finally we had five wickets in hand. This was one
situation wherein our batsmen should have taken
control. If a team wanted to win the World Cup, it had to
win every game. Every one knew the game against
Australia was vital, if we had won that game we would have
been through to the semis.''
About his batting he said, ``there is one point I
want to make. Our tail is very long. Every time I bat, I am with
the tailenders. And our seven, eight, nine, ten
and jack have hardly scored runs. So when I bat, I have to
concentrate for these guys. I am not only
concentrating on keeping my wicket and scoring runs at quick
pace, but I have to tell the guy, `Don't get
out.' So it's twice as difficult. The lower order scored for teams like
Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. For
India the batting stops with me. When it was important to
perform, we did not. We had lots of individual
performances. But against teams like Australia you have to
play as a unit. What I mean is there has to be
effort from each and every player in the side.
``People said we had only three runs to get
against Zimbabwe. But we gave 55 extras and we got only 46
overs to bat. And there were many poor shots
played. I will not name anybody. I don't want to point a finger
at x, y or z. There were no instructions to
finish the game in the 45h over. As long as I was there, I knew I had
to stay till the end. That was my goal. I did not
hit a single four. I made 35 runs off 41 balls in singles and
twos. When I was batting and when there were
three overs remaining, they had almost given up. They took a
chance with Henry Olonga and we started losing
wickets.''
Robin joined the debate on whether Sachin should
have opened the innings or batted at No. 4 saying, ``I
think he was happy to open. And if he is your
best batsman and he is comfortable there at the top, he should
open. He is definitely a psychological advantage
for us. And if we consider ourselves as such a strong
batting team, there should not have been worries
on whether Sachin would get out early. Every body must
take responsibility. Why are people not?
``I want you to note this point. I could have
been given a few more overs. I bowled only 31 overs and got 8
wickets. Some others got their full quota and
ended up with ten wickets. No Indian bowler figured in the top
ten. I would like to bowl more and I would like
to bat high in the order, should there be an opportunity. If they
want me to open the innings, I will be happy to
do it.''
Robin acknowledged the help from consultant Bobby
Simpson. ``He has helped to improve my batting. He is
very positive in his thinking. He picked the fine
points in my game. He told me to adjust my stance which
helped me to pick the line better. Similarly Ajay
Jadeja. He has helped most of the guys. He is so
experienced. I think he has contributed to every
individual.''
``Regarding the format (carry over of points) I
was not even aware of the rules until after the first game
against South Africa. Each one had his own
explanation. We were not given the rules. As a player I think it is
important to know. As players we were trying our
best to get more information. Forget the format. The point
is we should have won against South Africa,
Zimbabwe and Australia. Why complain of the format when we
did not play well enough. If you want to win the
World Cup you have to beat the strong teams. Australia did
that and they won close games against good teams.
The Australians buckle less under pressure.'
Samir Dhume
: I can't believe Robin Singh said all this stuff!! He's completely trashed
: all his team-mates! Azhar, Mongia, Ramesh, the tailenders, the bowlers...
: everyone!!
: From The Hindu (http://www.hinduonline.com/today/stories/0708028a.htm)
: -Samarth [ dazed... whatever happened to good old soft-spoken Robin
: Singh??? ].
I didn't see any trashing in the interview.
samir
Govinda K Bhat
have been more responsible and spent more time on planning. We need
people like Robin who can come out and speak.
Govind
Ravi Aron
Snipped some text without comment.
> I cannot see any criticism of Azhar except possibly through the reference
of
> the help given by Jadeja. Similarly, I do not see any mention of Ramesh.
Agreed.
> The reference to the tail starting at 7 is very correct and it is hoped
that
> the selectors realise that Mongia needs to be replaced immediately by a
w/k who
> can bat - and quickly.
Disagree. I noticed that some others too called for Mongia's head. A
wicketkeeper's primary qualification has to be that he keeps well. You might
find the 90's version of Surinder Khanna who can put a few away and get
Mongia + 25 runs. But the SK's of this world are awfully mediocre glovemen.
Reverting to Mongia, he is a pretty darned decent keeper in the main. Sure,
he had a bad world cup. Here's how I rate his performance in recent times.
He had one extraordinary series against Australia at home. The man fair
dazzled then. Had two pretty good series against RSA; first in India and
then in RSA. Had a decent outing in West Indies. Had a mediocre series
against Pakistan though he did well both with the bat and as a gloveman in
the Madras test. A bad outing in the Calcutta test. Mom in the one -off
test against the Aussies. Mongia's done well enough to merit a place in the
side. What must be considered is this: Mongia more than anybody else has
been the victim of the Dungapur and Dalmiya's limitless greed and thuggery.
He has been forced to play in every two bit tournament that you can think
of. Has been the stumper on all the overseas tours and often the lone
gloveman in the touring party. Dalmiya, Dungapur, Lele and their assorted
shoe shine boys (read national selectors, led by the chief cheer leader
Shivlal Yadav) travel to England, Barbados and locales where ICC holds its
bi-annual jamborees, while Mongia has no understudy or has to fall back on
Rahul Dravid. Non-stop, mind dulling, stupid, ODI circuses being staged to
favor every two bit nation that extended its support to the chief rodent in
the BCCI rat pack's quest for power and pelf. And Mongia's pretty much
played all those games. Is it surprising that he was slower and duller
during the WC? And a word about his batting. He's been shuffled up and down
the order to accommodate some expedient end or the other. Not very
surprising that he is not turning out to be a Moin Khan right?
We need to find not one replacement, but at five at the very least. Dungapur
the resident rodent in chief, Dalmiya the perennial climber, his sycophant
and laundry boy Lele, their chorus of thugs who say aye before the masters
speak, who are otherwise called the national selectors. The nation certainly
got the people it deserved and better still, the people that best represent
it.
ravi (and I thought Cricket doesn't rile me anymore) aron.
> Most of the other stated issues are obvious but I am somewhat surprised
that
> anybody participating in the WC would not be aware of the rules as these
should
> have been easily available.
>
> Perhaps the Indian management had not clearly explained to the team what
were
> the best tactics appropriate to these rules - presuming they had thought
this
> out.
>
> Cheers
> Prakash
>
> P.S. It will be interesting to see what happens as a result of this
interview
> i.e. is an explanation given, are changes made or is Robin dropped for
speaking
> out!!!!!
>
Prakmel
>Date: Wed, 07 July 1999 04:53 PM EDT
>Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.10.990707...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu>
>
>I can't believe Robin Singh said all this stuff!! He's completely trashed
>all his team-mates! Azhar, Mongia, Ramesh, the tailenders, the bowlers...
>everyone!!
>
I cannot see any criticism of Azhar except possibly through the reference of
the help given by Jadeja. Similarly, I do not see any mention of Ramesh.
The reference to the tail starting at 7 is very correct and it is hoped that
the selectors realise that Mongia needs to be replaced immediately by a w/k who
can bat - and quickly.
Most of the other stated issues are obvious but I am somewhat surprised that
samarth harish shah
> I didn't see any trashing in the interview.
1) Well, he complains about being dropped and about not being given enough
bowling... surely, he's trashing Gaekwad or Azhar or both.
2) "The Indian batting ends with me". Well, I wonder if Nayan Mongia
agrees.
3) "Some players played irresponsible shots against Zimbabwe. I don't want
to name x or y or z". Prime candidates: Ganguly, Dravid, Azhar and Ramesh
- all played poor shots. I don't suppose Robin can have the guts to
criticize India's WC heroes, so that leaves Azhar and Ramesh!
4) "Our tailenders can't bat for nuts" (or something to that effect). He's
trashing the tailenders, surely!
5) Even our best bowler got only 10 wickets. We didn't have a single
bowler in the top 10. Not entirely complimentary towards the bowlers...
-Samarth.
samarth harish shah
> I cannot see any criticism of Azhar except possibly through the reference of
"I should not have been dropped against England; I only found out on the
morning of the game (Navjot Sidhu episode *AAALLLL* over again); I should
be given more bowling". Surely, Azhar and Gaekwad are the targets there!!
> the help given by Jadeja. Similarly, I do not see any mention of Ramesh.
Go back and watch the Ind-Zim match. Now, see who played irresponsible
shots... tell me who played *THE* most irresponsible shot...
<snip>
> Perhaps the Indian management had not clearly explained to the team what were
> the best tactics appropriate to these rules - presuming they had thought this
> out.
Don't cricketers read newspapers? Magazines? Can't they *ask* for the
rules to be explained? Gosh! This level of stupidity is getting
infuriating!
<snip>
-Samarth.
Mudri, S. (Shreesh)
bitch about players from Karnataka sometimes directly and sometimes
indirectly (Venkatraghavan), shout about small achievements from the
roof tops and keep awfully quiet when they fail and hope their Godfather
is successful in retaining them in the team. It is no small wonder that
Robin has been in the team for so long with so little to show. Most
probably if he had been given 80 overs he would have given up 400 runs
and still taken less than 8 wickets. He has been more successful as a
part time bowler than as a regular bowler.
--
Shreesh Mudri
********************************************************************************
If it looks WRONG,
it is WRONG.
If it looks RIGHT,
it MIGHT be RIGHT!
********************************************************************************
dod...@my-deja.com
baseball, and it needs to employ baseball like tactics.
All teams have at least two catchers, and some have three. The second
catcher usually plays every 3rd or 4th game --- and baseball games are
much shorter.
If the wicket keeper is to stay fresh they should rotate the keeper.
Likewise pace bowlers should be given a rest if there are too many
games, e.g. in a tournament like Sharjah with 6 games in 9 days they
need to rotate the bowlers to keep them fresh.
In article <7m2hav$3ih$1...@news1.bu.edu>,
shan...@bu.edu (Desai Shantanu) wrote:
> Excellent post aron.Agreed with almost everything.
> To Roshan:Here is another example of someone else who has trashed the
> BCCI officials inside out.Now if you really believe Dalmiyaa is a gem
> I am expecting some kind of retort to Aron's post since you do it
> to me so many times to me when I bash the BCCI officials.Anyway if I
don't
> see any such
> thinng it just proves your double standards
>
> Coming back to Aron's post unfortunately as things stand out the no
of Nirodh
> cup tournaments which Indian is playing is going to increase every
year.It's
> time we try out replacements for Mongia to see how good they are.The
> only thing I disagree about your post is that I do not think there is
a
> zameen aasmaan ka gap between Mongia and other keepersIn the last
> 3-4 years only 1 keeper has been given a chjance and he did not
> do too badly.Also forget Moin Khan.Mongia is the worst
> WK batsman for one-dayers.The best option would be to try
> out few keepers for the numerous Nirodh Cup tournaments we play.
> This way Mongia also can get rest and concentrate on test matches.
>
> Shantanu
> [hats off to Aron]
>
>
--
---------------
dodo on IRC
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
samarth harish shah
> Robin is following a long standing tradition of Tamil Nadu players,
> bitch about players from Karnataka sometimes directly and sometimes
To me it seems that Robin has bitched about all and sundry. In fact,
mostly, he's criticized Gaekwad and Azhar. Then, he's criticized Mongia.
The bowlers/tailenders (Srinath, Kumble, Prasad) come only third in the
list, IMHO. In fact, he's even criticized Ramesh, IMHO! His own Tamil Nadu
team-mate!!
> indirectly (Venkatraghavan), shout about small achievements from the
Venkat didn't like only one particular Karnataka player and that was
Kirmani. It was more to do with Kirmani dropping half a dozen catches off
Venkat in a single series, than with anything personal.
OTOH, Venkat always gave Prasanna and Chandra long spells when he was
captain of South Zone. Prasanna always mentioned Venkat supporting him in
the SZ team. In "Idols", SMG says, "Venkat could've destroyed Pras'
career if he wanted to, but he always treated Pras very fairly".
> roof tops and keep awfully quiet when they fail and hope their Godfather
> is successful in retaining them in the team. It is no small wonder that
Talk of the pot calling the kettle black! Need I remind you of David
Johnson, Dodda Ganesh and Sujith Somasundar? Guess who was chairman of
selectors then - yeah, you guessed it - it was GRV!!
Robin Singh, OTOH, had the full backing of the national captain (Azhar)
for 6 seasons. Both played for MRF in Madras for a while (both left,
eventually). Azhar repeatedly pleaded with the selectors to include Robin
in the side for ODIs. For 6 long years, Azhar pleaded Robin's case.
But, because of the *absence* of the Godfather in the selection committee,
Robin lost out to Chatterjee, Banerjee, Vaidya, Chetan Sharma, Bedade,
Bhupinder Singh and others.
In fact, in recent times, TN has been the state most deprived due to the
absence of a "Godfather". Diwakar Vasu, Sharath, Sunil Subramanian have
all been hard done by... Even recently, someone mentioned Shiraguppi as a
possible candidate, totally ignoring the claims of Reuben Paul!
So, spare us this crap about TN players hating Karnataka. Creep back into
the hole you came from.
-Samarth.
RoshanCat
> BCCI officials inside out.Now if you really believe Dalmiyaa is a gem
Yes, Dalmiya is a gem, now compare this guy with zillions of others who held
the ICC posts before him. This guy has shown geniune interests in globalizing
cricket. At least he has shown that an International body for cricket exists.
I dont care how much money he makes bcoz of this. No human being is perfect, he
has his own flaws, but that shouldn't come in between of what he is genuinly
trying to acheive.
As far as BCCI is concerned, maybe they are not as professional as Australians.
But compare them to the Windies, Pak, SLK, RSA & England boards. They are
definitely not as stupid as these guys. You should remember professionalism is
not inculcated in every Indian like other advanced countries. Considering all
these they are doing pretty fine. Of course they definitely have large scope
for improvement. But they definitely dont deserve the trash media/public dishes
out to them.
For a poor country like India, we have to rely on playing a fair share of ODI
tournaments to fill our coffers. Also the fact of pleasing every other person
is a typical nature of Indians, so why should the board be blamed just bcoz
they are showing the same Indianness you & I have. That to me is double
standards
Finally the selectors, yes I used to critisize the selectors every time they
selected the team. But with maturity I'm able to empathize with them, the
tremendous task/pressure they have when it comes to pick a team coming from
varying cultures/regions/media pressures/Godfathers/reputation/youth
Afterall they did pick Sachin at 16, Persisted with Saurav against pressure,
brought back Mohanty despite getting exposed as stupid, rersisted with Rahul in
ODI's, gave millions of chances to M'kar.
Morever they are one of the very few boards, who dont bow to the pressure of
media & short-eyed-fanatics who judge a player only by his last innings
Everybody will have their own favorites/prejudices. Again after all they ar e
human beings, we are not living in an ideal world. To me they are making a
honest attempt to unearth the best team representing India, blaming them just
bcoz they didn't pick my favorites (Kuru, Chauhan instead of Bhajju/Prasad)
only exposes my smallness
Cheers,
Roshan
Ravi Iyengar
>of Bhajju/Prasad) only exposes my smallness
>Cheers, Roshan
please dont expose your small ... er ... nevermind!
cheers,
ravi
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
RoshanCat
>Johnson, Dodda Ganesh and Sujith Somasundar? Guess who was chairman of
>selectors then - yeah, you guessed it - it was GRV!!
Rathore, Raman, Mhambrey, Ashish, Bhupinder, Robin Singh, Subroto.... India is
in eternal search for an opener & a third medium pacer. During that time the
trio had performed exceptionally well in the domestics to merit selection. It
has nothing to do with GRV bcoz guess who recommended both Sujith & Johnson?
The captain SRT himself, rather than any cock-&-bull story
Sujith hit a blistering 100 for India B & Sachin saw shades of Srikanth in him
& spoke about it about having him in the ODI side. Remeber those were the times
India was looking for Sachin's partner in ODI's who could hit-out
In the same tournament Johnson became the first Indian bowler to actually
trouble Sachin Tendulkar. Sachin just couldn;t read Johnson & finally succumbed
to him LBW after being beaten a zillion times. His figures read 10-2-13-1.
Infact that spell of Johnson impressed everyone that even Shastri/G'kar/Boycott
all had him in their list of selection. Even I thought India had found a deadly
third seamer.
As far as Ganesh is concerned he had a superb Ranji season & topped it with a
brilliant 11 wicket spell in the Irani trophy. In that match the ball he bowled
Sidhu was breathtaking, the middle stump taking a beautiful walk.
Although, what Mudri was saying is absolute trash, I'm just clarifying these
three deserved their selection at the time they got selected. Its a different
matter that they got exposed (Ganesh will be back soon, I presume)
Cheers,
Roshan
Ravi Aron
news:Pine.GSO.4.10.990708...@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu...
> On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Mudri, S. (Shreesh) wrote:
Snip.
> Talk of the pot calling the kettle black! Need I remind you of David
> Johnson, Dodda Ganesh and Sujith Somasundar? Guess who was chairman of
> selectors then - yeah, you guessed it - it was GRV!!
An aside to a well written post.
When Venkat captained the side to England (the tour when SMG played his 200
plus at Oval) he went ballistic on Kaps, a junior (though much valued)
player in the side. He yelled at the man and his verbal diatribes used to
scare Kaps stiff in the dressing room. GRV used to calm Kaps down and talk
to him and cool him down. In the first test at E'baston, Kaps scalped 5 for
125 and England won by 7 wickets (after being 19 for 3 chasing 90 odd to
win). In the second innings Kaps hit a purple patch and had the Poms on the
ropes for a brief while. Venkat trying to egg the man on, yelled and shouted
out brisk commands at him and kaps wasn't quite sure as to what was going
on. I remember the BBC com.s (CMJ and/or Arlot?) saying "there's GR
Viswanath leaving the first slip for the umpteenth time scampering over to
Dev and patting him on the back" followed by some comment about their
heights (the long and short of it (-: ).
While Venkat, ever since his Alwarpet CC and SPIC days had a foul temper,
there's no reason to believe that he had something against K'taka. Apart
from Samarth's observation that he treated Pras and Chandra well, he (Venkat
not Samarth) had frequently told his Alwarpet cronies that "GRV, Solkar,
Chandra and Ashok Mankad" were his favorite players. A pity about the man
though. He had a well lit cricketing mind and was a reasonably capable
strategist. One of the worst man managers, he was foul tempered, free with
vituperative language and not quite your winning friends and influencing
people type. Had more followers than friends in Alwarpet CC (things improved
a little at SPIC a little I gather).
> But, because of the *absence* of the Godfather in the selection committee,
> Robin lost out to Chatterjee, Banerjee, Vaidya, Chetan Sharma, Bedade,
> Bhupinder Singh and others.
OTOH, there was an absolute disaster called WV Raman who went to RSA. Other
than Rohan C., I don't think anybody was happy.
> In fact, in recent times, TN has been the state most deprived due to the
> absence of a "Godfather".
You go man. We're with ya (-:
>Diwakar Vasu, Sharath, Sunil Subramanian have
> all been hard done by...
And TE in the 80's. Another fella with a big mouth and loads of ability.
Though I think Bombay suffered more than anybody else. Amol, Kambli, Ramnath
Parkar (I will never forgive what they did to this man in the 70's), RJS,
SVM,... all victims of quotas and Rest of India envy.
ravi (whats the name of that Bombay bat whose a dashing stroke player and a
possible opener? A rags to Ranji story - Shapur Ahmed or something? ) aron.
samarth harish shah
<post about Johnson, Ganesh and Somasundar deleted>
Excellent. Now, go and refer to the performances of Sharath, Vasu and
Sunil Subramanian. Remember that we're literally groping in the dark for
an all-rounder... and Vasu was (and probably is) the best all-rounder in
South Zone.
Remember also that for years, we didn't have a decent spin bowler. Even
after Kumble came, he still had no support. Raju was decent at home
between 1993 and 1995... that's all. Even today, there is nobody in sight
to support Kumble.
And don't get me started on who Sharath could've replaced. Apart from
Kambli, when he was thrown out, that is.
However, I don't have any qualms about these blokes not making it. Raju
might have been better than Subramanian. Ganguly might be better than
Sharath. Prabhakar might've been better than Vasu even after 1992.
What is disturbing is that the above players (except for Sharath) weren't
regulars even in the South Zone team! It was a generation of cricketers
entirely ignored. They performed consistently. Johnson and Somasundar were
mere flashes in the pan. The same is going to happen to Reuben Paul. He's
a consistent performer, but because of a few flashes of brilliance from
Shiraguppi, he's going to be overlooked.
When you'll look at their overall record when both are 35 years old, you
will realize what might have been. This is not new at all. It happened in
the past with V. Sivaramakrishnan, Robin Singh, to name just two.
One great season for Bedade and he goes in ahead of Robin. At least after
Robin was 33 the selectors realized their mistake.
-Samarth.
John Smith
>When Venkat captained the side to England (the tour when
>SMG played his 200 plus at Oval) he went ballistic on Kaps,
>a junior (though much valued) player in the side. He yelled
>at the man and his verbal diatribes used to scare Kaps
>stiff in the dressing room. GRV used to calm Kaps down and
>talk to him and cool him down. In the first test at
>E'baston, Kaps scalped 5 for 125 and England won by 7
>wickets (after being 19 for 3 chasing 90 odd to win).
You are confused between the 1979 tour and 1982 tour. India
lost the first test at Edgebaston by an innings. Eng scored
633/5 (Gower 200). Kapil took all 5 wickets.
In the 1982 test we lost the first test, at Lords, by 7 wkts
when Eng needed 64 runs to win. Great test for Kapil.
Took 5 and 3 wkts and scored 42 and 89. Brilliant stuff.
samarth harish shah
<snip>
> When Venkat captained the side to England (the tour when SMG played his 200
> plus at Oval) he went ballistic on Kaps, a junior (though much valued)
> player in the side. He yelled at the man and his verbal diatribes used to
> scare Kaps stiff in the dressing room. GRV used to calm Kaps down and talk
It was quite well known that Venkat had a bad temper and a foul mouth. I
quote from SMG's "Idols", again: "Venkat's temper was a big joke in the
Indian team. Nobody took him seriously".
Apart from that, he was a fielding and fitness fanatic. He could
tolerate players failing with the bat or the ball. But, he could never
tolerate players not putting in a 100% on the field - more reason for
him to dislike Kirmani - he failed Venkat on the field!
As a senior player in the India Pistons side, he would make N Saravanan
(youngest double-centurion in representative cricket *in the world* - at
age 12) run from fine-leg to fine-leg to slim him down (!). This was when
Saravanan was in his late teens. He would make sarcastic remarks about
Saravanan's running.
But nobody ever took him seriously. Even when he was an umpire in club
cricket in Madras, it was his temper as much as his cricketing reputation
that kept players in check.
<snip>
-Samarth.
RoshanCat
>regulars even in the South Zone team
The South zone selection team is entirely different than the national one
(atleast when these guys were playing). In fact it was headed by someone from
TN.
There will always be numerous cases where a player is ignored & that applies to
all states. Even the kannadigas can claim Bhardwaj (Highest scorer in a season
ever), Joshi (only one to have a 500 & 50 double), Ganesh (almost claiming the
highest wickets in a season), Shiraguppi, Tilak Naidu or Arun Kumar are given
raw deals.
The fact is all the players from Kumble to Johnson performed in *the* match
where it mattered most for selection. Johnson & Sujith did it in the Challenger
when the whole of India were watching (plus ESPN commentators of Harsha, Sunny,
RJS & who do have enough influence on selectorial matters esp thru media).
Kumble, Srinath & Ganesh did it in crucial Irani trophy matches just before the
team selection
The same can't be said with any of the TN players you mentioned. How many have
seen Vasu/Subramaniam troubling Sachin or any top batsman in the country?
Agreed that those guys were flashes in th pan, but they *did* time their
flashes-in-the-time so that they could get selected. The very fact that
Vasu/Sub/Sharath didn't do it will leave a big question mark on their ability
to raise their games in big matches
Bottomline is, Nobody but Nobody can suppress class or uphold mediocrity. So I
refuse to believe in all this selectorial crap. If you are good nobody can
prevent you from making the national team, if you are pathetic you'll be duly
exposed
The game of cricket is so great that it'll put each & everyone in their
deserved place from Sachin to David Johnson.
Cheers,
Roshan [Cricket is always above petty things like selectors/poilitics]
Samir Dhume
: Don't cricketers read newspapers? Magazines? Can't they *ask* for the
: rules to be explained? Gosh! This level of stupidity is getting
: infuriating!
I think Robin said that different interpretations of the rules were given
by different people from the team management.
samir
samarth harish shah
<snip>
> There will always be numerous cases where a player is ignored & that applies to
> all states. Even the kannadigas can claim Bhardwaj (Highest scorer in a season
> ever), Joshi (only one to have a 500 & 50 double), Ganesh (almost claiming the
> highest wickets in a season), Shiraguppi, Tilak Naidu or Arun Kumar are given
> raw deals.
All "one season" wonders. Exactly the kind of players I want the selectors
to *avoid*. You will notice that very few Indian cricketers who have been
chosen to the Indian team after only *one* good season have been
successful. Gavaskar got selected early, but even his century-making
half-a-dozen FC games were spread over 2 seasons.
> The fact is all the players from Kumble to Johnson performed in *the* match
Kumble was a consistent performer. He was selected to the Indian team in
1990 itself. He performed consistently in RT cricket even after being
dropped. For two years after 1990, he did well, apart from doing well
pre-1990. The 1992 Irani Trophy 11-wicket haul at the Kotla was only the
turning point of his career... it was not the *sole* bright point.
> where it mattered most for selection. Johnson & Sujith did it in the Challenger
> when the whole of India were watching (plus ESPN commentators of Harsha, Sunny,
> RJS & who do have enough influence on selectorial matters esp thru media).
Sharath scored tons of runs in matches covered by ESPN. In fact, the
partnership between Sharath and Ramesh that brought *Ramesh* to the
forefront was shown on ESPN. This was in the Duleep Trophy game against
North Zone where SZ chased 350 on the last day to win the game. Both
Sharath and Ramesh got 100s.
Harsha Bhogle has been a long time fan of Reuben Paul since the Ranji
final between Karnataka and TN in which Reuben didn't leave a single bye
in a score of > 500 by Karnataka. Bhogle, even today, mentions Paul as
future India material.
> Kumble, Srinath & Ganesh did it in crucial Irani trophy matches just before the
> team selection
That was only the final blow. Prior to that their performances were great
in RT and DT. Srinath got a hat-trick on RT debut. He was immediately
picked for the Duleep Trophy team. Due to a good DT performance, he was
pitchforked into the Irani Trophy team.
Incidentally, around the same time, Sunil Subramanian also took a
hat-trick. He didn't make it to the DT team, however. If you don't make it
to the DT team, how can you be chosen for the Irani Trophy (unless you're
L. Siva and bowl 100 overs in the nets to SRT and then ask him for a
favor :-)) ?
> The same can't be said with any of the TN players you mentioned. How many have
> seen Vasu/Subramaniam troubling Sachin or any top batsman in the country?
If they are not chosen for the DT team, how can they be chosen for the IT
team or the Challengers?
> Agreed that those guys were flashes in th pan, but they *did* time their
> flashes-in-the-time so that they could get selected. The very fact that
> Vasu/Sub/Sharath didn't do it will leave a big question mark on their ability
> to raise their games in big matches
And how do you reach that conclusion? Based on the ability shown in the
big matches that they *DIDN'T EVEN PLAY* ???
> Bottomline is, Nobody but Nobody can suppress class or uphold mediocrity. So I
If it's suppressed, you'll never know about it, will you?
> refuse to believe in all this selectorial crap. If you are good nobody can
> prevent you from making the national team, if you are pathetic you'll be duly
If you're prevented from making the national team (or even the national
scene viz IT, Challengers, India 'A'), nobody will know that you're good.
Then, like you, people will believe, "oh, they didn't make it, they're
probably not good".
> The game of cricket is so great that it'll put each & everyone in their
> deserved place from Sachin to David Johnson.
So, how come Robin Singh wasn't in his deserved place before 1996? Surely,
if he was good enough after age 33, he was good enough before it, too! How
come he wasn't in his deserved place, then, while Bedade, Vaidya, Chetan
Sharma, Chatterjee, Banerjee, Bhupinder Singh and others ruled the roost?
> Roshan [Cricket is always above petty things like selectors/poilitics]
Or so you think.
-Samarth.
samarth harish shah
<snip>
> Now suddenly you admit that Kapil is crap.He He He.This means either of two
> things:
I'd like to interrupt, here. Kapil was the best seam bowler in India
almost all through his career. In 1993, after the South Africa tour,
Srinath was probably a marginally better bowler, but still Kapil's overall
worth to India was greater than Srinath's.
Alternatives for partnering Kapil were hard to find. Let alone
alternatives to *replace* Kapil. We tried TA Sekar, Raju Kulkarni,
Balwinder Sandhu, Madan Lal, Binny, Chetan Sharma etc., etc., but they
were inadequate to even be *partners* for Kapil, let alone replacements.
And none of the above "replacements" could've been expected to average 30
with the bat.
So, while Kapil might've been a crap *bowler* compared to Hadlee, Imran
and Marshall between 84 and 92, he was still undisputed champ in India.
And still nearly equal to Hadlee and Marshall as an *overall* cricketer,
simply by being a better batsman than them.
Now, compare this with other cricketers for whom dozens and dozens of
replacements exist. Some of the replacements do brilliantly when finally
given the chance to prove themselves. And yet, they have to wait until the
mediocre cricketers retire... because replacing them is unheard of.
> 2)you have finally got convinced by RK's arguments that Kapil got a free ride
Free ride at who's expense? Rajinder Ghai? Ranjit Khanvilkar? Balwinder
Sandhu? TA Sekar? Raju Kulkarni?
I'll tell you at who's expense Azhar is getting a free ride: Sharath,
Mazumdar, Laxman, Kanitkar, Kambli, Bharadwaj, Amre...
<snip>
-Samarth [ how many poor series did it take to drop Sidhu? How many
England 1996, WI 1997 series has Azhar had in the last 10 years? ].
RoshanCat
Check out the records of Joshi, Ganesh & Bharadwaj they are far from one-seaon
wonder
>You will notice that very few Indian cricketers who have been
>chosen to the Indian team after only *one* good season
It is all based on the requirement & the class the guy shows in whatever little
he performs. Why dont you accept that Sub/Vasu/Robin just didn't fit the bill
>it was not the *sole* bright point.
Exactly my point, If Kumble/Srinath/Ganesh/J'son/Sujith hadn't perfromed in
those matches they wouldn't have been selected. Thats the way it works
>Sharath scored tons of runs in matches covered by ESPN
I'm talking about matches where the whole nation + selectors was focused.
Irani/Challenger/India-A/are the matches were the players have to perfrom
irrespective of their past performances. Many bright players like Amol, Jaffer,
host of TN players have failed to do it. Entirely their mistake
>> Kumble, Srinath & Ganesh did it in crucial Irani trophy matches just before
>the
>> team selection
>
>That was only the final blow
A necessary *blow* which is required by all players irrespective of consistent
past perfromances
>Incidentally, around the same time, Sunil Subramanian also took a
>hat-trick
For every SS there is a Raghuram Bhat/Ananthapadmanabhan/Bahutule who have
consistent domestic records. You clearly cant say any one guy is better than
the other
>If they are not chosen for the DT team
As I have mentioned before Zonal teams have a different selection committee &
has its fair share of TN selectors
>So, how come Robin Singh wasn't in his deserved place before 1996?
Ooooo, wait-a-minute just sit back & think whose case you are trying to
forward. Please take a look at Robin Singh's bowling/batting performances over
the past years. At best he is mediocre.
History will place him above Bedade, Bhupinder, Jr et all but below Sachin,
Rahul, Srinath or Kumble
Thats the place Robin deserves nothing more nothing less. There is absolutely
no descrepancy out there. And Chetan Sharma > Robin Singh
>Bedade, Vaidya, Chetan
>Sharma, Chatterjee, Banerjee, Bhupinder Singh and others ruled the roost?
Care to check exactly how many matches these guys played to deserve the term
"rule the roost"? The fact is Robin Singh didn't eaxactly set the world on fire
in whatever chances he was given.
In fact he was given a chance as early as 89'. Care to explain why he mucked it
up?
Would the selectors have dropped him if he had given even a decent performance?
That was the class of Robin, muck it up when the chance was given
Cheers,
Roshan [Even Saurav was dropped for 6 years just one more than Robin, what are
you trying to prove?]
Desai Shantanu
<a great post from Samarth and agrees with everything he said about Azhar>
I agree with you that Kapil was untouchable till about 1989.However we
did get some good replacements after /around 1989.(razdan,Ankola,Kuru,Srinath)
But I do not think Kapil was playing at their expense since on so
many occasions other crap fast bowlers were selected ahead of the bowlers
I mentioned above.But these bowlers hmay have done better than Kapil or
Prabhakar had they shared the new ball.
However even in the 90's sometimes Kapil
showed better application than the so called specialist batsmen
while batting.(eg SA 1992)
Anyway this post was for Roshan to clarify as to how he suddenly
turned from a kapil lover to a Kapil basher.
Shantanu
[clarifying]
Ravi Iyengar
>> Kapil got a free ride
>Free ride at who's expense? Rajinder Ghai? Ranjit
>Khanvilkar? Balwinder Sandhu? TA Sekar? Raju Kulkarni?
Dont ask such embarassing questions Samarth. They never get
replied to.
The term "free ride in indian team" is usually replied to by
comparitive stats of Imran Khan and Richard hadlee ... as if
they were on duty for India ....
A guy who defends 36*(170+) balls in an ODI match should
never be taken seriously.
cheers,
ravi
cricke...@my-deja.com
>
> > Robin is following a long standing tradition of Tamil Nadu players,
> > bitch about players from Karnataka sometimes directly and sometimes
>
> To me it seems that Robin has bitched about all and sundry. In fact,
> mostly, he's criticized Gaekwad and Azhar. Then, he's criticized
Mongia.
> The bowlers/tailenders (Srinath, Kumble, Prasad) come only third in
the
> list, IMHO. In fact, he's even criticized Ramesh, IMHO! His own Tamil
Nadu
> team-mate!!
>
I agree entirely. He's been oblique about it, but it was a pretty
frank, straightforward interview. Unusual, and nice to see.
> > indirectly (Venkatraghavan), shout about small achievements from the
>
> Venkat didn't like only one particular Karnataka player and that was
> Kirmani. It was more to do with Kirmani dropping half a dozen catches
off
> Venkat in a single series, than with anything personal.
>
Hum. Debatable :-) And if that one series alone made him ignore
everything else and drop Kiri (so that he wasnt even the 2nd keeper!)
for the tour of England under Venkat, thats pretty amazing. Purely
coincidentally, of course, the #1 keeper for that tour was Bharat Reddy
:-)
> OTOH, Venkat always gave Prasanna and Chandra long spells when he was
> captain of South Zone. Prasanna always mentioned Venkat supporting
him in
> the SZ team. In "Idols", SMG says, "Venkat could've destroyed Pras'
> career if he wanted to, but he always treated Pras very fairly".
>
Well, what does that tell you about South Zone politics at the time?
That Venkat should be in a position to destroy the career of someone
senior to him in experience and age, as well as far superior to him in
ability and performance?
And there is more than one side to this, anyway. If you read Chandra's
autobiography with Rajan Bala, he clearly doesnt agree with Gavaskar's
view on this. He too thinks that Pras was far better than Venkat, and
thinks the TN association had a lot of power at the time, and played a
lot of politics pushing Venkat very very hard, to ensure that he got to
play quite a few tests ahead of Pras. He points to the fact that Pras
was senior (and better), and Jaisimha was usually captain of the South
Zone side - and respected by all as a terrific captain and fair person,
supposedly. And the next season, the TN association (so says Chandra)
pushed very very hard and had Venkat made captain of South Zone, with
Jaisimha actually having to play *under* him ! This was done, says
Chandra, to ensure that Venkat would be right at the top of the
contenders list for the upcoming test series (since he was captaining
both Pras and Chandra). Chandra makes no bones about the fact that
Jaisimha *should* have stayed captain, so that the 3 spinners could
fight it out on an even playing field for the test spots - but that the
the TN association made sure their blue-eyed boy had a better chance,
by making sure he captained the zone ahead of more worthy contenders.
This is Chandra's opinion, anyway - and I personally agree with at
least some of it, myself. I dont think Venkat was near the player Pras
was (though that doesnt make him less than a good player - Pras, IMHO,
was the best offie the world has seen since Laker). Consequently Venkat
should have almost never played ahead of Pras in a test match. IMHO,
anyway :-) As it was, he did so way too many times.
None of this is quite as relevant today, of course - the TNCA hasnt had
anywhere near the dominating power it did in SZ politics in the early
70s in this past decade. Karnataka has had a lot more of the power
lately.
> > roof tops and keep awfully quiet when they fail and hope their
Godfather
> > is successful in retaining them in the team. It is no small wonder
that
>
> Talk of the pot calling the kettle black! Need I remind you of David
> Johnson, Dodda Ganesh and Sujith Somasundar? Guess who was chairman of
> selectors then - yeah, you guessed it - it was GRV!!
>
Yep. Karnataka had a lot of power for a long time, while GRV was COS.
And the rivalry between TN and Karnataka didnt fade either :-)
When Vishy was made SZ representative in the selection committee (way
back in 1989/90), he didnt stand in the way of the COS's decision to
sack Srikkant from captaincy and the team. And Srikkant *never* played
while Vishy was the SZ rep - he was always excluded from the side.
When TN was pushing Srikkant's comeback (he scored a brilliant ton for
his office side in an A div game in Madras, which drew much comment),
Vishy publicly said the next day that "you need to score in good level
cricket, not some office and club games, to be an Indian opener" -
something that caused much heartburn in TN circles.
Finally, due to increased pressure, Vishy was *removed* from the
selection committee, and replaced by Venkat (and said, publicly, that
he would never be selector again - and also made a few comments to the
Wisden Cricket Monthly etc about how India should go with a 3-man
selection committee ignoring regional affiliations). Immediately on his
removal (and Venkat's accession) Srikkant returned to the side (for the
India tour to Australia, 1991).
One year later (India had been blown away in Australia, failed badly in
the World Cup), Venkat was removed as selector - and promptly went full-
time into umpiring. He was replaced by Vishy, who immediately took over
as Chairman of the selection committee - and didnt say another word
about going to a 3-man system :-) As soon as Vishy took over, of
course, Srikkant was dropped, and never played for India again (which
was probably gonna happen after the WC anyway, but still provides a
nice symmetry ;-)
> Robin Singh, OTOH, had the full backing of the national captain
(Azhar)
> for 6 seasons. Both played for MRF in Madras for a while (both left,
> eventually). Azhar repeatedly pleaded with the selectors to include
Robin
> in the side for ODIs. For 6 long years, Azhar pleaded Robin's case.
>
> But, because of the *absence* of the Godfather in the selection
committee,
> Robin lost out to Chatterjee, Banerjee, Vaidya, Chetan Sharma, Bedade,
> Bhupinder Singh and others.
>
I dont think you can compare him with any of those guys, or even
should. There was a time when India was loaded with allrounders in ODI
cricket - and Azhar was pleading Robin's case at that time. Of course
he was ignored - India already had Shastri, Kapil and Prabhakar as
allrounders, and were in far greater need of a genuine bowler who could
be relied upon to bowl his 10 overs in most games (Robin, over his ODI
career, has averaged almost exactly 5 overs bowled per game - 5 overs
and 1 ball, to be precise). If Robin had to come in, it would have to
have been as an allrounder, replacing either RJS, KD or Pkar, which he
was unable to do. It was only when both RJS *and* KD were retired that
he started playing for India again on a full-time basis (when RJS alone
retired, Pkar took over at opener, KD moved to #6/#7, and Srinath,
Kumble and Raju/Vaidya/Ankola etc provided the rest of the bowling).
> In fact, in recent times, TN has been the state most deprived due to
the
> absence of a "Godfather". Diwakar Vasu, Sharath, Sunil Subramanian
have
> all been hard done by... Even recently, someone mentioned Shiraguppi
as a
> possible candidate, totally ignoring the claims of Reuben Paul!
>
I agree with you about Sharath, but not much else. I like Paul from
what Ive heard of him so far, but pretty much the only innings in his
career of any substance whatsoever so far have come against Goa (2 tons
I believe - though both incredibly rapid knocks). Until he demonstrates
a bit more consistency with the bat against good bowling attacks (not
to mention stops using his spikes on pitches ;-), people will often
ignore his claims, even if they arent biased, IMHO :-)
> So, spare us this crap about TN players hating Karnataka. Creep back
into
> the hole you came from.
>
While I dont disagree, there has historically been a rivalry between
the associations. Not that thats unsual in Indian cricket, of course -
the Maharashtra (and Baroda) and Bombay cricket associations arent the
best of friends either :-) Nor, of course, are the Delhi and Punjab
associations (as can be seen by the players picked for India over the
past few years :-)
And the Karnataka/TN rivalry doesnt come close to the intensity of the
Bombay/Delhi or Lahore/Karachi rivalry, anyway :-)
Sadiq [ who vividly recalls Gaekwad not picking a single
Bombay player for a WZ team a couple of years ago ] Yusuf
> -Samarth.
RoshanCat
>president?What about his scheduling zillions of tournamentsand getting
>India involoved?Also no need to mention about his
>deed swhile he was in charge of BCCI:like not allowing Dravid to go home
>when his father was ill during the 1996-97 Zimbabwe tour etc.
Lets analyze the damage he has created for Indian team.
* Indian team is undefeated at test series at home since 12 years. The fact
that we played zillions of ODI tournaments never altered that fact.
I would argue, thankz to the zillions of ODI tournaments we play on
sub-continents our performance in test matches played on sub-continets have
improved by leaps & bounds. THanks to Dalmiya by giving so much international
match practices.
* Indian team is pathetic in abroad
It was always pathetic even before we started to play ODI's. WHo knows if we
play zillions of ODI tournament on non-sub-continent pitches we might actually
win test series abroad
Case study 86 England tour: india played WSC 85, tri-series 86 & Texaco trophy
within a small space of time. Result-> India won that series
I would say play more ODI's on seaming conditions we might actually improve our
batting/fielding which has let us down
>Kapil
>was pathetic before 1992.In the past you were using all kinds of excuses
>to justify Kapil's greatness,his influence on Indian cricket,why he
> underperformed etc.
I still maintain Kapil is the greatest sportsman India has ever produced. i
have never digressed from that. He defintely wasn't his best after 84' but he
*still* was the best seam bowler in India & a superb batsman. there are no
double standards there. Just bcoz his bowling form varied from poor to mediocre
doesn't exclude from all the great deeds he has done to India. No Kapil never
got a free -ride I have never agreed on that.
>2)you have finally got convinced by RK's arguments that Kapil got a free ride
>and you realise that you were wrong all along in supporting Kapil.
I have not agreed on this
>1)you were bluffing all the time and knew in your heart of hearts
>that RK is right .
You can check all my posts on Kapil
Cheers,
Roshan
RoshanCat
Clarifying again, nobody has yet matched what Kapil has done to Indian cricket.
He won the Wc 83 for us which is still is the turning point of INdian cricket.
How does accepting the fact Kapil's bowling form was poor, turn me into a Kapil
basher.
Cheers
Roshan {Kapil is da best}
Sridhar
>
> On 8 Jul 1999, RoshanCat wrote:
> > There will always be numerous cases where a player is ignored & that applies to
> > all states. Even the kannadigas can claim Bhardwaj (Highest scorer in a season
> > ever), Joshi (only one to have a 500 & 50 double), Ganesh (almost claiming the
> > highest wickets in a season), Shiraguppi, Tilak Naidu or Arun Kumar are given
> > raw deals.
>
> All "one season" wonders.
cheap shot. bharadwaj had a good '97-98 season (averaged > 50) before
it was eclipsed by his '98-99 avatar. joshi and ganesh have
been fairly consistent too - but the last season was the only one
where they had to win matches by themselves with no srinath or kumble
to bail them out of trouble. and they acquitted themselves pretty ok.
so this "one season wonder" thing is a major reach.
be that as it might, what of the ajay sharmas, raman lambas, paras
mhambreys and vikram rathores ? were/are they one season wonders too ?
> Exactly the kind of players I want the selectors
> to *avoid*. You will notice that very few Indian cricketers who have been
> chosen to the Indian team after only *one* good season have been
> successful. Gavaskar got selected early, but even his century-making
> half-a-dozen FC games were spread over 2 seasons.
1 season vs 2 seasons. like that's a big diff... what about
srt who played tests at 16 ? kapil, who played at 19 ?
ultimately, it's class that counts. no matter how successful a
ranji player is, there's no guarantee he'll cut it at the next
level just because he's played donkey's years in the ranjis.
>
> -Samarth.
cricke...@my-deja.com
>
> Excellent. Now, go and refer to the performances of Sharath, Vasu and
> Sunil Subramanian. Remember that we're literally groping in the dark
for
> an all-rounder... and Vasu was (and probably is) the best all-rounder
in
> South Zone.
>
Hum. Do you mean batting or bowling allrounder? Isnt Robin a better
batting allrounder, maybe?
I like Vasu, I really do - and have often said so on rsc. He deserved a
few more BPXI games, Challenger games etc. But he *has* played for
South Zone, quite a few games. Kumble, for example, has played only a
handful of games for SZ - and he batted at #6 and had 2 tons in the
Duleep Trophy ! Joshi, of course, had 50 wickets and 500 runs in a
single Ranji season. Both of those players would probably argue with
your contention.
I do agree with you in principle, though - someone like Noel David
making it ahead of Vasu was beyond ridiculous, and only happened due to
the presence of Shivlal Yadav on the selection committee.
> Remember also that for years, we didn't have a decent spin bowler.
Even
> after Kumble came, he still had no support. Raju was decent at home
> between 1993 and 1995... that's all. Even today, there is nobody in
sight
> to support Kumble.
>
I disagree here - first, Subramanium was older by a long way than Raju,
Kumble etc. Second, he didnt do *that* well in this period youre
referring to - if you care to check the Ranji stats, you'll find that
Utpal Chatterjee outperformed all other spinners in many of those
years, for example.
And thirdly, while Iam no big fan of Raju, he didnt do just "decently"
at home between 1993 and 1995 :-) In this period, he played 11 tests at
home, claiming 55 wickets at an average of 22.71 apiece. He *did* suck
abroad, of course :-)
> And don't get me started on who Sharath could've replaced. Apart from
> Kambli, when he was thrown out, that is.
>
True. However Kambli was replaced by Ganguly/Dravid, and has never made
his way back - not for a single test. But I agree with you entirely
that Sharath has been very harshly treated - he should be a regular in
BPXI games, A team matches, ROI games etc. He is clearly in our 2nd
tier of batsmen, at least IMHO. He hasnt gotten anywhere near the
chances at that level he should have.
> However, I don't have any qualms about these blokes not making it.
Raju
> might have been better than Subramanian. Ganguly might be better than
> Sharath. Prabhakar might've been better than Vasu even after 1992.
>
> What is disturbing is that the above players (except for Sharath)
weren't
> regulars even in the South Zone team! It was a generation of
cricketers
Hum. You list 3 players, and you say "except Sharath" all were regulars
:-) It should be noted, BTW, that Sharath has played pretty much every
single game SZ played, since 1993/94. Played every single year. He only
hasnt gotten chances at A team games etc as much as he should have.
Sunil Subramanium, BTW, played 6 out of 8 Duleep Trophy games that
South played, in 1993/94 and 1994/95 - thats quite regular. He missed
the first 2 games in 93/94 since Raju played (he was in the test side
at the time, and Raju/Kumble formed the spin attack). He did very well
in the next 2 games, and then played all 4 games and did very poorly in
1994/95. Since he was already approaching 30, he wasnt played in
1995/96. Sunil even got an Irani Trophy game against Bombay (for ROI,
in about 1994/95) - he did very poorly in that one, from memory.
I dont have stats for pre 1994 on me at the moment, I'll check and let
you know about before that, if you like.
Vasu has suffered a bit - he got a couple of Duleep games in 1995. I'll
check on the rest, but I seem to recall him not playing much. Partly
because Robin Singh always did, and Joshi etc were around as
allrounders too, for SZ.
Sadiq [ pointing out some stats ] Yusuf
> entirely ignored. They performed consistently. Johnson and Somasundar
were
> mere flashes in the pan. The same is going to happen to Reuben Paul.
He's
> a consistent performer, but because of a few flashes of brilliance
from
> Shiraguppi, he's going to be overlooked.
>
> When you'll look at their overall record when both are 35 years old,
you
> will realize what might have been. This is not new at all. It
happened in
> the past with V. Sivaramakrishnan, Robin Singh, to name just two.
>
> One great season for Bedade and he goes in ahead of Robin. At least
after
> Robin was 33 the selectors realized their mistake.
>
Harish Chandramouli
>samarth harish shah (shs...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
><a great post from Samarth and agrees with everything he said about Azhar>
>Anyway this post was for Roshan to clarify as to how he suddenly
>
>Shantanu
>[clarifying]
~~~~~~~~~~~
Stating the obvious, aren't we? ;-)
Harish
--
The #1 fan of Britney Spears on r.s.c
John Smith
>Creep back into the hole you came from.
Is this is the same I-dont-make-personal-attacks Samarth,eh?
Mudri, S. (Shreesh)
>
> OTOH, Venkat always gave Prasanna and Chandra long spells when he was
> captain of South Zone. Prasanna always mentioned Venkat supporting him in
> the SZ team.
can you give any refs.?
> In "Idols", SMG says, "Venkat could've destroyed Pras'
> career if he wanted to, but he always treated Pras very fairly".
Yeah and Ajit Wadekar could have destroyed the career of Gavaskar.
Venkat could have made it more difficult for Pras to come back after the
five year layoff but not for long.
>
> Talk of the pot calling the kettle black! Need I remind you of David
> Johnson, Dodda Ganesh and Sujith Somasundar? Guess who was chairman of
> selectors then - yeah, you guessed it - it was GRV!!
that is as far as that allegation will go. too many of your type have
been shouting about GRV's bias for a long time but get very ruffled when
even a finger seems to get pointed at a TN player. Man talk of creeping
back into
the hole you came from.
> -Samarth.
asi...@my-deja.com
cricke...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> And there is more than one side to this, anyway. If you read Chandra's
> autobiography with Rajan Bala, he clearly doesnt agree with Gavaskar's
> view on this. He too thinks that Pras was far better than Venkat, and
> thinks the TN association had a lot of power at the time, and played a
> lot of politics pushing Venkat very very hard, to ensure that he got
to
> play quite a few tests ahead of Pras. He points to the fact that Pras
> was senior (and better), and Jaisimha was usually captain of the South
> Zone side - and respected by all as a terrific captain and fair
person,
> supposedly. And the next season, the TN association (so says Chandra)
> pushed very very hard and had Venkat made captain of South Zone, with
> Jaisimha actually having to play *under* him !
For a great overview of this and other related matters during that
priod, check out Raju Bharatan's "Indian cricket 1970-77. Yes, Jai got
a raw deal vis a vis Venkat during that period.
> as Chairman of the selection committee - and didnt say another word
> about going to a 3-man system :-)
Not true. Vishy had often talked about this even during his tenure. The
last instance was after he retired as Chairman. iirc, This as pretty
much before Sambaran Banerjee's famous "I will never select Bombay
players as long as I'm in the selection committee" thingy.
> And the Karnataka/TN rivalry doesnt come close to the intensity of the
> Bombay/Delhi or Lahore/Karachi rivalry, anyway :-)
>
Yea, but Baroda, TN, Punjab were poor cousins of the traditional power
houses like Mumbai, Delhi and Karnataka in the 70's and 80's. There
were times when the team would comprise of players from the latter
three simply due to their prominence in domestic tournaments. Check out
this year as well. Kar with 4 test players short won the Ranji. No
complaints there.
But how the hell did this discussion move from a RS interview to
discussing Tam-Kar politics ;-))
Cheers
Arun
Uday Rajan
> In article <7m355l$npq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> cricke...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> And there is more than one side to this, anyway. If you read Chandra's
>> autobiography with Rajan Bala, he clearly doesnt agree with Gavaskar's
Missed cricketwallah's post on this, but his are the comments I'm
responding to here. You mean there is someone who thinks that Pras was
*not* far better than Venkat? Not Gavaskar, surely? That would be a strange
turn of events; Gavaskar was a Pras-man for a while after that Test in NZ
in 1975-76.
>> thinks the TN association had a lot of power at the time, and played a
>> lot of politics pushing Venkat very very hard, to ensure that he got
> to
>> play quite a few tests ahead of Pras. He points to the fact that Pras
>> was senior (and better), and Jaisimha was usually captain of the South
>> Zone side - and respected by all as a terrific captain and fair
> person,
>> supposedly. And the next season, the TN association (so says Chandra)
>> pushed very very hard and had Venkat made captain of South Zone, with
>> Jaisimha actually having to play *under* him !
This, too, is a fairly well-known story. TN pushed to make Venkat captain
of SZ so that he could then be pushed to be VC of India and thus ensure his
place in the side. Venkat was a decent offie all right, but no patch on
Pras.
samarth harish shah
> Check out the records of Joshi, Ganesh & Bharadwaj they are far from one-seaon
> wonder
I am primarily concerned with the likes of Bedade, Somasundar, Bhupinder
Singh, Jedhe, Johnson and Mhambrey. They were all one-season wonders. Even
Joshi and Ganesh when first picked were one-season wonders. They might
have had good seasons after that, but the fact remains that they were
*not* well-bred when first picked.
The idea is this: cricketers playing for India should be well-bred. They
should have spent a decent few years doing well in the breeding grounds
viz. under-19, India 'A', under-25, RT, DT etc. Not *all* of the above,
but a cumulative X (2 < X < 5) number of *successful* seasons with one or
more of the above teams.
Every cricketer in the current Indian team is "well-bred". Except for
Tendulkar, perhaps, but for him, he did in one Ranji season what others do
in 3 seasons... forget SRT he's a child prodigy. All the others are
"well-bred" cricketers. They've played some amount of junior cricket
(Ramesh, Gangs, Dravid, Azhar, Mongia) or have 3-4 years of Ranji
*performance* before making their debut (Ramesh, Dravid, Prasad, Srinath,
Kumble). Note that Ranji *experience* like Bhupinder Singh is not
adequate. Ranji *performance* should be there.
Alternatively, you can choose to breed a young cricketer on tour. Like the
Indians did with Nayan Mongia in 1990 - making him play all the FC games.
Or the Australians did with Ricky Ponting. They were chosen early, but
bred while on the team.
> It is all based on the requirement & the class the guy shows in whatever little
> he performs. Why dont you accept that Sub/Vasu/Robin just didn't fit the bill
Because they *did* fit the bill. I may be talking in retrospect, but they
certainly *did* fit the bill.
> A necessary *blow* which is required by all players irrespective of consistent
> past perfromances
Johnson, Bedade etc. didn't have *consistent* past performances. All they
had was one season. Not the definition of "consistent". Ganesh also had
only one season when he was first picked. Now, he has more experience.
Now, he's a "well-bred" cricketer!
<snip>
> >So, how come Robin Singh wasn't in his deserved place before 1996?
>
> Ooooo, wait-a-minute just sit back & think whose case you are trying to
> forward. Please take a look at Robin Singh's bowling/batting performances over
> the past years. At best he is mediocre.
Compared to Bedade, Bhupinder, Vaidya, Chatterjee, Banerjee?
> History will place him above Bedade, Bhupinder, Jr et all but below Sachin,
> Rahul, Srinath or Kumble
History will also note that Bedade, Bhupinder, Vaidya & Co. kept Robin out
for 7 years.
> Thats the place Robin deserves nothing more nothing less. There is absolutely
> no descrepancy out there. And Chetan Sharma > Robin Singh
I don't think so.
> >Bedade, Vaidya, Chetan
> >Sharma, Chatterjee, Banerjee, Bhupinder Singh and others ruled the roost?
>
> Care to check exactly how many matches these guys played to deserve the term
A sum total of close to 30 games. So, do you accept that Robin Singh lost
out on at least 20 games?
> "rule the roost"? The fact is Robin Singh didn't eaxactly set the world on fire
> in whatever chances he was given.
He did very well, thank you. The same can't be said of Bedade, Chatterjee,
Banerjee, Bhupinder Singh, Vaidya and the others.
> In fact he was given a chance as early as 89'. Care to explain why he mucked it
> up?
You call *2* ODI games a "chance"? Besides, in any case, he didn't deserve
to be picked then. We had 5 TN players in the Indian team, then - VBC,
Venkataramana, Srikkanth, Robin Singh and WV, simply because TN won the RT
in 1988. So, based on *ONE* season, all of them were in there. Only
Srikkanth and WV Raman deserved to be in there. Not VBC, not
Venkataramana and not Robin Singh. None of them was "well-bred". Robin
Singh, after 1990-91 or so was well-bred.
<snip>
> Roshan [Even Saurav was dropped for 6 years just one more than Robin, what are
> you trying to prove?]
Kambli and Amre did quite well in his place. I wonder if the same can be
said of Bedade, Vaidya, Bhupinder and the other wunderkinds.
-Samarth.
samarth harish shah
> cheap shot. bharadwaj had a good '97-98 season (averaged > 50) before
> it was eclipsed by his '98-99 avatar. joshi and ganesh have
So, he should've been in the Indian team after '97-'98. After all one good
season is enough to be in the Indian team, isn't it?
> been fairly consistent too - but the last season was the only one
> where they had to win matches by themselves with no srinath or kumble
When they were first picked, they were not well-bred. They had *one*
decent RT season. Today, they might be good, hard-boiled, Ranji pros. But,
when they were first picked to play for India, they were rookies to the
top-class cricket scene in India (RT, DT, Under-19, India 'A', etc).
> to bail them out of trouble. and they acquitted themselves pretty ok.
> so this "one season wonder" thing is a major reach.
> be that as it might, what of the ajay sharmas, raman lambas, paras
> mhambreys and vikram rathores ? were/are they one season wonders too ?
No. But what does that prove? Not all well-bred FC cricketers will make
good test cricketers. But that doesn't mean that you pick up anyone who's
had a good half season to play for India.
> 1 season vs 2 seasons. like that's a big diff... what about
It is. Check out the difference between Atul Bedade's 1993 Ranji
performance and 1994 Ranji performance to find out exactly how big a
difference it is.
Now, like you waited one season for Bharadwaj, if you had waited one
season for Bedade, you would have known whom *not* to pick.
> srt who played tests at 16 ? kapil, who played at 19 ?
SRT was a child prodigy. He was well-bred at age 14. Even he played 3 good
RT seasons before being chosen (RT debut against Gujrat at age 13).
Vengsarkar and Kapil thought he was ready to go to WI in 1988-9. But, we
gave him some more breeding time.
Gavaskar suspected that Kapil was ready in 1976-7. But, just to give him
more breeding time, he was taken to Kenya with the India 'A' team (or
whatever they called it then). In Kenya, he was India's best player. His
breeding was complete. Even after Gavaskar thought he was ready, it took
one full season for him to be picked.
> ultimately, it's class that counts. no matter how successful a
> ranji player is, there's no guarantee he'll cut it at the next
> level just because he's played donkey's years in the ranjis.
It's even less of a guarantee that he'll cut it after just *one* year in
the Ranjis.
-Samarth.
samarth harish shah
<snip>
> Well, what does that tell you about South Zone politics at the time?
> That Venkat should be in a position to destroy the career of someone
> senior to him in experience and age, as well as far superior to him in
> ability and performance?
What's so strange about that? A captain is *always* capable of making or
breaking the career of a player in his side - whoever that player may be.
And there were no two ways about Venkat becoming captain of SZ. In fact,
he was VC of India; he would obviously become captain of South Zone! If
you're disputing Venkat being captain of South Zone, then you're plain
crazy. And once you're captain, you're more or less in charge of each of
your players' future, really.
-Samarth.
rsd...@hotmail.com
> On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Sridhar wrote:
>
> > cheap shot. bharadwaj had a good '97-98 season (averaged > 50)
before
> > it was eclipsed by his '98-99 avatar. joshi and ganesh have
>
> So, he should've been in the Indian team after '97-'98.
> After all one good season is enough to be in the Indian team,
> isn't it?
if *you* insist. i only object to these guys being dubbed one-season
wonders. joshi and ganesh clearly aren't. bharadwaj might be, if he
fails in the next 2-3 seasons. we don't *know* that'll happen.
>
> > been fairly consistent too - but the last season was the only one
> > where they had to win matches by themselves with no srinath or
kumble
>
> When they were first picked, they were not well-bred. They had *one*
> decent RT season. Today, they might be good, hard-boiled, Ranji pros.
so ? still no excuse to call them osw's (if i might use that acronym).
> But,
> when they were first picked to play for India, they were rookies to
the
> top-class cricket scene in India (RT, DT, Under-19, India 'A', etc).
what of smg and srt ? it's not as if they'd played a dozen years
apiece in fc before they played tests. what about kapil ?
what about younis and shoaib akhtar for pak ? we have pak who're
as whimsical as it gets about selecting youngsters, and at the other
end of the selectorial spectrum, eng who pride themselves on not
selecting a cricketer before the onset of male pattern baldness.
one finds that pak has been as successful as eng, nevertheless :).
>
> > to bail them out of trouble. and they acquitted themselves pretty
ok.
> > so this "one season wonder" thing is a major reach.
> > be that as it might, what of the ajay sharmas, raman lambas, paras
> > mhambreys and vikram rathores ? were/are they one season wonders too
?
>
> No. But what does that prove? Not all well-bred FC cricketers will
make
> good test cricketers. But that doesn't mean that you pick up anyone
who's
> had a good half season to play for India.
no, only pak does that. they somehow manage to still win.
fluke, i guess.
>
> > 1 season vs 2 seasons. like that's a big diff... what about
>
> It is. Check out the difference between Atul Bedade's 1993 Ranji
> performance and 1994 Ranji performance to find out exactly how big a
> difference it is.
proof by example ? what about ajay sharma, who had several good
seasons and then went on to flop at the international level ?
how many fc seasons did waqar younis play before test debut ?
javed miandad ? kapil ? srinath ?
>
> Now, like you waited one season for Bharadwaj, if you had waited one
> season for Bedade, you would have known whom *not* to pick.
bedade was only a specialist slogger, and he did play a couple of
meaningful knocks in his short intl career. not much risked, and
not much lost.
>
> > srt who played tests at 16 ? kapil, who played at 19 ?
>
> SRT was a child prodigy. He was well-bred at age 14. Even he played 3
good
> RT seasons before being chosen (RT debut against Gujrat at age 13).
> Vengsarkar and Kapil thought he was ready to go to WI in 1988-9.
> But, we gave him some more breeding time.
>
> Gavaskar suspected that Kapil was ready in 1976-7.
in his very first fc season ? where did gavaskar say this ?
> But, just to give him
> more breeding time, he was taken to Kenya with the India 'A' team (or
> whatever they called it then). In Kenya, he was India's best player.
who knows, he might have had 450+ if he'd played for the seniors
instead :). maybe we wouldn't have lost to the packeriasic aussies
in '77-78 :)
> His
> breeding was complete. Even after Gavaskar thought he was ready, it
took
> one full season for him to be picked.
>
> > ultimately, it's class that counts. no matter how successful a
> > ranji player is, there's no guarantee he'll cut it at the next
> > level just because he's played donkey's years in the ranjis.
>
> It's even less of a guarantee that he'll cut it after just *one* year
in
> the Ranjis.
yeah, a bigger risk, but a bigger reward in case he does cut it.
not that i'm all for it, but when you highlight the minuses, allow
me to include the plusses.
- sridhar
>
> -Samarth.
rsd...@hotmail.com
>
> On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 rsd...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > if *you* insist. i only object to these guys being dubbed one-season
>
bs in a new flavour ? some of those that roshan mentioned haven't even
played for india. he was talking about a case being made for selecting
these people *now*. what relevance does their being osw's some 3 years
back have to the topic ? here's the old exchg again.
-------------------------------------
On 8 Jul 1999, RoshanCat wrote:
> Even the kannadigas can claim Bhardwaj (Highest scorer in a season
> ever), Joshi (only one to have a 500 & 50 double), Ganesh (almost
claiming the
> highest wickets in a season), Shiraguppi, Tilak Naidu or Arun Kumar
are given
> raw deals.
All "one season" wonders. Exactly the kind of players I want the
selectors
to *avoid*.You will notice that very few Indian cricketers who have been
< blah blah blah.......>
----------------------------------------
> SMG *was* well-bred. <...etc etc .......>
> selected to play for India. But what it *does* mean is that he was
> *WELL-BRED*.
who's to say bharadwaj, for instance, isn't ? he has been seen
around some of the finer stables at the b'lore turf club.
> They leave their selection to their cricketers. We could do the same
too.
> If we did, Kapil would've played for India in 1976 - Gavaskar was *so*
> impressed. SRT would've played in 1988 - both Vengsarkar and Kapil
were
> *so* impressed. Ganguly would've never been dropped - Shastri after
being
> hit all over the park by Gangs in a knock of 125 in the DT, remarked,
> "this guy is the best young batsman in India". The next question by
the
> Hindu reporter was, "Better than Kambli?". Shastri said, "yes".
>
> Similarly, if it was left to Azhar to choose the Indian team, he
would've
> picked Robin in 1991.
he made his debut in '88-89 in the wi. he got a bigger applause
than any of his other team-mates when he went in to bat in the
port-of-spain odi. don't you think he might have been in some
way responsible for not being selected again ? why, he also
played a test match at harare. would you give him another chance ?
let me be clear - i have nothing against the man. he's a warrior,
and is 100% on effort. but to claim that he was given a raw deal
*like few others* is way off the mark.
>
> Our test players have a good eye for talent too, like their Pakistani
> counterparts. Sadly, they're not on the selection committees. That is
> reserved for players who were miserable failures in FC cricket or
never
> played FC cricket at all (Kishen Rungta, MP Pandove, Sambaran
Banerjee).
vishy, mankad, etc ?
> Our cricketers are also not good at having their way with things like
> Imran was or Miandad was.
>
> > no, only pak does that. they somehow manage to still win.
> > fluke, i guess.
>
> Explanation above.
>
> > proof by example ? what about ajay sharma, who had several good
> > seasons and then went on to flop at the international level ?
>
> Talk about proof by example! Just because an established FC player is
a
> failure in international cricket, you don't go around picking
> non-established FC cricketers like Bedade and Johnson.
did i make that claim ? no. it was to show that for every osw who fails,
there's a younis who succeeds. for every "well-bred" guy who succeeds,
there's an ajay sharma who flops. (give or take a few per cents :) )
what are you on about ?
>
> > how many fc seasons did waqar younis play before test debut ?
> > javed miandad ? kapil ? srinath ?
>
> Don't compare Indian and Pakistani selection policies. The difference
> between the two is described above.
srinath and kapil played for pak ? news to me.
>
> > bedade was only a specialist slogger, and he did play a couple of
> > meaningful knocks in his short intl career. not much risked, and
> > not much lost.
>
> No, don't say, "not much risked". Because every time a player is
chosen,
> the career of 10 others contending for the same spot is risked. The
> support of 1 billion people for their national team is risked. The
risk
> better be worth it.
if those other contenders cannot withstand the wait of a few matches,
you think they're good in the long haul ?
>
> > > Gavaskar suspected that Kapil was ready in 1976-7.
> >
> > in his very first fc season ? where did gavaskar say this ?
>
> This might be getting monotonous, but I quote from 'Idols', again:
> "<...> Kapil's teammates thought I was indulging in gamesmanship, but
the
> truth was far from that. After a long time, India had found a
promising
> quick bowler and I was just giving him good advice."
yeah, he was giving him advice. if i'm not mistaken, this is the
part about advising kapil to bowl closer to off-stump to get his
outswinger to be more effective. if sunny had to give kapil advice,
isn't that reason to believe sunny thought he was still raw ?
>
> If you missed it, here it is again: "<...> India had found a promising
> quick bowler ... ". He was potential India material!
yeah, sunny thought he had promise. he might have thought the same
of his son when he was 8-9. this is far your claim - "sunny
thought kapil was ready in '76-77", no matter which way you spin it.
but this is really a side issue to me - i'm just letting you know
you've been bullshitting (i suppose you knew that already).
the 2 main things i wanted you to prove (or disprove :)) were:
1) ganesh, joshi, etc are one-season wonders.
2) a "one-season wonder" who, by your definition, is someone
with one great domestic season (or 1 good + 1 great season)
can just not cut it at the international level.
you've admitted that 1) is no longer true, and 2) is also false
because it has worked for pak, atleast, and for some "well-bred"
indian cricketers too.
so, if you have nothing more to add, let's proceed to the next thread.
- sridhar
>
> <snip>
samarth harish shah
> if *you* insist. i only object to these guys being dubbed one-season
When first chosen to play for India, they *were* one season wonders.
> what of smg and srt ? it's not as if they'd played a dozen years
I only asked for X years where (2 < X < 5). I don't think dozen (which is
equal to 12, BTW) falls in that range. SRT *did* have 3 *brilliant* years
of RT cricket before he went to Pakistan. He was the first man to have a
century on debut in all three: RT, DT and IT. He was *not* a one season
wonder when first chosen, although, for a genius of his caliber, for a
child-prodigy like him, he could've been chosen to play for India at 14.
SMG *was* well-bred. His successful RT games were spread over two seasons.
OK, not three, but I guess his genius was evident after two :-). He played
against visiting teams (the 1969-70 NZ team, for example), he was a
Rohinton Baria trophy winning captain and also India's best schoolboy
cricketer in his day. Not that that last achievement matters in being
selected to play for India. But what it *does* mean is that he was
*WELL-BRED*.
> apiece in fc before they played tests. what about kapil ?
2 great FC seasons. An 'A' team tour (which, BTW, is as good as one whole
FC season if Ajit Agarkar is to be believed).
> what about younis and shoaib akhtar for pak ? we have pak who're
> as whimsical as it gets about selecting youngsters, and at the other
> end of the selectorial spectrum, eng who pride themselves on not
> selecting a cricketer before the onset of male pattern baldness.
> one finds that pak has been as successful as eng, nevertheless :).
They leave their selection to their cricketers. We could do the same too.
If we did, Kapil would've played for India in 1976 - Gavaskar was *so*
impressed. SRT would've played in 1988 - both Vengsarkar and Kapil were
*so* impressed. Ganguly would've never been dropped - Shastri after being
hit all over the park by Gangs in a knock of 125 in the DT, remarked,
"this guy is the best young batsman in India". The next question by the
Hindu reporter was, "Better than Kambli?". Shastri said, "yes".
Similarly, if it was left to Azhar to choose the Indian team, he would've
picked Robin in 1991.
Our test players have a good eye for talent too, like their Pakistani
counterparts. Sadly, they're not on the selection committees. That is
reserved for players who were miserable failures in FC cricket or never
played FC cricket at all (Kishen Rungta, MP Pandove, Sambaran Banerjee).
Our cricketers are also not good at having their way with things like
Imran was or Miandad was.
> no, only pak does that. they somehow manage to still win.
> fluke, i guess.
Explanation above.
> proof by example ? what about ajay sharma, who had several good
> seasons and then went on to flop at the international level ?
Talk about proof by example! Just because an established FC player is a
failure in international cricket, you don't go around picking
non-established FC cricketers like Bedade and Johnson.
> how many fc seasons did waqar younis play before test debut ?
> javed miandad ? kapil ? srinath ?
Don't compare Indian and Pakistani selection policies. The difference
between the two is described above.
> bedade was only a specialist slogger, and he did play a couple of
> meaningful knocks in his short intl career. not much risked, and
> not much lost.
No, don't say, "not much risked". Because every time a player is chosen,
the career of 10 others contending for the same spot is risked. The
support of 1 billion people for their national team is risked. The risk
better be worth it.
> > Gavaskar suspected that Kapil was ready in 1976-7.
>
> in his very first fc season ? where did gavaskar say this ?
This might be getting monotonous, but I quote from 'Idols', again:
"<...> Kapil's teammates thought I was indulging in gamesmanship, but the
truth was far from that. After a long time, India had found a promising
quick bowler and I was just giving him good advice."
If you missed it, here it is again: "<...> India had found a promising
quick bowler ... ". He was potential India material!
<snip>
-Samarth.
samarth harish shah
> On 8 Jul 1999, RoshanCat wrote:
>
> > Even the kannadigas can claim Bhardwaj (Highest scorer in a season
> > ever), Joshi (only one to have a 500 & 50 double), Ganesh (almost
> claiming the
> > highest wickets in a season), Shiraguppi, Tilak Naidu or Arun Kumar
> are given
> > raw deals.
>
> All "one season" wonders. Exactly the kind of players I want the
When Joshi and Ganesh were chosen, they *were* one season wonders. *If*
Shiraguppi, Tilak Naidu and Arun Kumar are chosen *now* (as some people
want) they will be one-season wonders! What's ambiguous about that? The
player is a one-season wonder when *first* chosen! After that, being in
the Indian team itself is a type of "breeding" - like what happened with
Mongia or Ponting (for Australia).
Who cares if the player is first picked in 1996 (Joshi) or in 1999
(Shiraguppi)? The player is a one season wonder, *when first picked*. Ok,
I forgot to say, "when first picked" in my first post, but I assumed any
half-wit would know that it obviously means *WHEN FIRST CHOSEN*.
If you are well-bred after playing with the 'A' team, surely you're
well-bred after playing for the *senior* side!! I thought any half-wit
would get that into his head!
<snip>
> he made his debut in '88-89 in the wi. he got a bigger applause
> than any of his other team-mates when he went in to bat in the
Applause because he was from PoS. Not because the crowd thought he was the
next Bradman.
> port-of-spain odi. don't you think he might have been in some
> way responsible for not being selected again ? why, he also
With the Indian captain cheerleading for him during selection meetings?
No, I don't think he was responsible.
> played a test match at harare. would you give him another chance ?
He was never a test player. Even Azhar, who kept rooting for the man,
never dreamt of playing him in a test.
<snip>
> vishy, mankad, etc ?
1) Always outnumbered.
2) Did in Rome as the Romans did. If Rungta has his man, then I'm going to
have mine... who cares if I think my man isn't really good? This was the
main reason why DBV left the West Zone selection panel. He said, "I don't
want to become like those other selectors. I don't want to root for a
player who I *know* is not good, simply because he's from my team."
<snip>
> did i make that claim ? no. it was to show that for every osw who fails,
> there's a younis who succeeds. for every "well-bred" guy who succeeds,
In Pakistan, not in India. Because the selection in Pakistan is different.
> there's an ajay sharma who flops. (give or take a few per cents :) )
My contention is that it's more than just "a few".
> if those other contenders cannot withstand the wait of a few matches,
> you think they're good in the long haul ?
They lose out on matches that they could've won for the country. The
country and the fans lose out on that much glory. The wait doesn't affect
them personally - it only affects the results of the team.
> yeah, he was giving him advice. if i'm not mistaken, this is the
> part about advising kapil to bowl closer to off-stump to get his
> outswinger to be more effective. if sunny had to give kapil advice,
> isn't that reason to believe sunny thought he was still raw ?
No, because he goes on to say, "this lad had everything: the build, the
pace and the outswing; all he needed was ...".
<remaining rants snipped... not my fault if you can't comprehend simple
logic>
-Samarth.
RoshanCat
>
>- sridhar
sleep. As long as the thread ends with his post, things will be fine
Cheers,
Roshan
Peter Purshotam
1 season vs 2 seasons. like that's a big diff... what about
it's class that counts. no matter how successful a ranji
player is, there's no guarantee he'll cut it at the next
level just because he's played donkey's years in the ranjis.
You are telling this with the benefit of hindsight. For one
Kapil or SRT there have been notable failures of those who
were picked up very young under false assumption that they
are classy like Chetan Sharma, Maninder Singh, L Siva.
Even Dilip Vengsarkar was picked up soon and he took his own
sweet time (10 yrs to be precise) to prove.
Peter Purshotam
>otherwise he wont sleep. As long as the thread ends with
>his post, things will be fine
>Cheers, Roshan
LOL.
Sridhar
>
> Sridhar:-
> 1 season vs 2 seasons. like that's a big diff... what about
> srt who played tests at 16 ? kapil, who played at 19 ?
> ultimately,
> it's class that counts. no matter how successful a ranji
> player is, there's no guarantee he'll cut it at the next
> level just because he's played donkey's years in the ranjis.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> You are telling this with the benefit of hindsight.
no. saying it up front. i don't claim to know who's "got it", but
i do suspect that you can't find out merely by letting them rot in
the ranjis for a few more years.
> For one
> Kapil or SRT there have been notable failures of those who
> were picked up very young under false assumption that they
> are classy like Chetan Sharma, Maninder Singh, L Siva.
there are also old warhorses like ajay sharma, raman lamba,
bhupinder sr, wv raman, etc who couldn't make it big at the next
level. so, imo, it's a guessing game. you'll win on some, and
lose on some. the number of years a kid has played at fc level seems
feebly correlated with the ability to shine in tests, if at all.
better to judge a player by his basics (technique, temperament for
batsmen; pace, control for bowlers) and his performance over
his recent seasons, than to wait for them to prove themselves in
the domestics for 2<x<5 seasons (:)) by which time they've probably
developed bad habits (like hick).
> Even Dilip Vengsarkar was picked up soon and he took his own
> sweet time (10 yrs to be precise) to prove.
>
Sridhar
>
> >so, if you have nothing more to add, let's proceed to the next thread.
> >
> >- sridhar
amen. assuming these don't count as the last words, of course.