Afrikaner Test cricketers

[Andrew B]

According to the book "Bent Arms and Dodgy Wickets", only two players
with a Boer heritage represented South Africa before "the days of Hansie
Cronje and Allan Donald" - namely, Johannes Kotze and Peter Heine. Is it
right?

[Dave]

Not exactly but not a monstrous exaggeration.

It is true that many Afrikaans schools only started playing cricket
after WW2. Cricket was a game for the Engelsman that built the Boer
concentration camps ;-)
This means that by the time these schools started producing good
cricketers we were isolated

There were a few others some of which were anglicized ay English
schools
The best example is our captain in the 60s Peter vd Merwe who went to
a very English school

Without dissecting the list there were a few others, Nicolaas
theunissen, Jacobs du Toit , Charles Fichart and others.
I haven't looked at what schools they attended but it wouldn't
surprise me if some of them went to English speaking schools

The likes of Grey Bloemfontein is certainly making up for it

[Dave]

The author may make a case for boer heritage and Afrikaner heritage
not being exactly the same thing.

[eusebius]

Does speaking English negate boer status in the author's opinion? What
about Pieter Van Der Bijl? And of course Vintcent...in non-official
tests. Looking through the list of South African players, we see
numerous non-anglo names, like Zulch, Du Preez, Du Toit, Bacher, Le
Roux, Marx, Meintjes, Burger, Kuys, and others. So it seems that the
author has been at least a tad arbitrary and exclusionary in his
selection.

[david.b...@gmail.com]

No I dont think speaking English negates Boer status
Not being descendant of a Boer myself (all 4 grandparents emigrated from England after WW1) I dont know

But logically Boer would be someone descendant from Afrikaners that were in the Orange Free State and the Transvaal Republic.
Of course Boer refers to a nationhood to an extent (as in Boer Republics)
Whereas boer would be Afrikaner farmer)

An Afrikaner would be someone that uses Afrikaans as their 1st language (or a descendent I suppose).

Many Afrikaner born cricketers were anglocised.
Peter van der Merwe was Afrikaans born but he got sent to St Andrews (an expensive English speaking boarding school)
The van de Bijl's also got anglicised at some point.
Pieter went to Bishops (expensive English private school and then onto Oxford
Vincent also went to Bishops

But there are quite a few descendents of Afrikaners that became SA test cricketers in addition to those 2

Maybe what the author meant was "Afrikaans educated" which would definitely shave the list
The reality is that most Afrikaans schools did not take cricket seriously till well after WW2 so unless they got sent to an English school it was unlikely that they play cricket

[John Hall]

In article <kgm66n$cg7$1...@dont-email.me>,

I wouldn't that thought so. Schwartz, Vogler and van der Merwe all sound
like Boer names to me (though of course names aren't always a reliable
guide to heritage), and I'm sure there are more.
--
John Hall

"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong."
Oscar Wilde

[eusebius]

On Feb 28, 6:23 pm, david.baker...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 28 February 2013 08:41:16 UTC+2, eusebius  wrote:
.
>
> > Does speaking English negate boer status in the author's opinion? What
>
> > about Pieter Van Der Bijl? And of course Vintcent...in non-official
>
> > tests. Looking through the list of South African players, we see
>
> > numerous non-anglo names, like Zulch, Du Preez, Du Toit, Bacher, Le
>
> > Roux, Marx, Meintjes, Burger, Kuys, and others. So it seems that the
>
> > author has been at least a tad arbitrary and exclusionary in his
>
> > selection.
>
> No I dont think speaking English negates Boer status
> Not being descendant of a Boer myself (all 4 grandparents emigrated from England after WW1) I dont know
>
> But logically Boer would be someone descendant from Afrikaners that were in the Orange Free State and the Transvaal Republic.
> Of course Boer refers to a nationhood to an extent (as in Boer Republics)
> Whereas boer would be Afrikaner farmer)

Sorry I didn't mean to use lower case. Actually boer could indeed be a
Dutch farmer :)
Not that being Dutch would negate a prospect of a cricket career
entirely.

>
> An Afrikaner would be someone that uses Afrikaans as their 1st language (or a descendent I suppose).
>
> Many Afrikaner born cricketers were anglocised.
> Peter van der Merwe was Afrikaans born but he got sent to St Andrews (an expensive English speaking boarding school)
> The van de Bijl's also got anglicised at some point.
> Pieter went to Bishops (expensive English private school and then onto Oxford
> Vincent also went to Bishops
>
> But there are quite a few descendents of Afrikaners that became SA test cricketers in addition to those 2
>
> Maybe what the author meant was "Afrikaans educated" which would definitely shave the list
> The reality is that most Afrikaans schools did not take cricket seriously till well after WW2 so unless they got sent to an English school it was unlikely that they play cricket

Certainly the post-Springboks (the Proteas, I should say) have seemed
much more obvious in their Afrikaner influences, which has added a new
dimension to their sledging efforts.

[eusebius]

On Feb 28, 8:23 pm, John Hall <nospam_no...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <kgm66n$cg...@dont-email.me>,

>  Andrew B <bull...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >According to the book "Bent Arms and Dodgy Wickets", only two
> >players with a Boer heritage represented South Africa before "the
> >days of Hansie Cronje and Allan Donald" - namely, Johannes
> >Kotze and Peter Heine. Is it right?
>
> I wouldn't that thought so. Schwartz, Vogler and van der Merwe all sound
> like Boer names to me (though of course names aren't always a reliable
> guide to heritage), and I'm sure there are more.
> --
> John Hall

I think, to channel Shridhar, that Schwarz seems Jewish to me.
Blanckenberg is another obviously non-anglo name, and according to
someone he was also a talented spinner, less of a one-trick pony than
was Schwarz, the off spinning wrist spinner (a googly specialist)

[Brian Lawrence]

On 28/02/2013 08:23, david.b...@gmail.com wrote:

> But logically Boer would be someone descendant from Afrikaners that were in the
> Orange Free State and the Transvaal Republic.

Of 316 Test players, only 13 were born in the OFS and 61 in the
Transvaal. Of those only 7 & 41 played before 1992. Six of the OFS-born
players were born while it was a Boer Republic, and eight were born in
the Transvaal while that was a Boer Republic (before 1902).

OFS Born
============================
JF du Toit 1869
CG Fichardt 1870
CFH Prince 1874
NV Lindsay 1886
CN Frank 1891
SK Coen 1902

The only other player before 1992 was RL Harvey (b. 1911). Since 1992
there have been Wessels, McMillan, Donald, Cronje, Boje & Elgar.

Transvaal Born
============================
JW Zulch 1886
DJ Meintjes 1890
MJ Susskind 1891
CD Dixon 1891
AHC Cooper 1893
WFE Marx 1895
CL Vincent 1902
EP Nupen 1902

There are rather a lot of post-1902 to list, but I will do so:

CL Vincent, EP Nupen, Q McMillan, JAJ Christy, EA van der Merwe,
SH Curnow, JAK Cochran, EAB Rowan, B Mitchell, RE Grieveson, LS Brown,
AW Briscoe, N Gordon, DW Begbie, OE Wynne, NBF Mann, AMB Rowan,
GM Fullerton, WR Endean, AI Taylor, KJ Funston, PL Winslow, MG Melle,
JHB Waite, SF Burke, CGdeV Burger, GG Hall, JT Botten, PR Carlstein,
KA Walter, DT Lindsay, EJ Barlow, HR Lance, A Bacher
- - - - - - - - -
SJ Cook, AP Kuiper, DJ Richardson, PS de Villiers, T Bosch, CE Eksteen,
AM Bacher, M van Jaarsveld, ND McKenzie, AJ Hall, Z de Bruyn, A Nel,
D Pretorius, GC Smith, JA Rudolph, JA Morkel, J Botha, AB de Villiers,
M Morkel, F du Plessis, M de Lange

Of course being born in those provinces doesn't mean they were Afrikaner.

Doing a bit of research I was surprised that the first cricket team
to win the Currie Cup was the Transvaal in 1889-90, at which time the
Province was Boer. (Sir Donald Currie presented the Currie Cup to
Kimberley a year earlier, when he had taken the first English team to
South Africa - the Kimberley team later became Griqualand West, and
the Griquas were mixed-race people [Dutch/native] who also spoke
Afrikaans. It wasn't until 1892-93 that the first team from a British
Province played in the Currie Cup [E Province].)

--

Brian W Lawrence
Wantage
Oxfordshire

[Brian Lawrence]

On 28/02/2013 16:44, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> On 28/02/2013 08:23, david.b...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> But logically Boer would be someone descendant from Afrikaners that
>> were in the
> > Orange Free State and the Transvaal Republic.
>
> Of 316 Test players, only 13 were born in the OFS and 61 in the
> Transvaal.

I meant to add that 135 were born in Cape Colony/Province; 61 in Natal;
and 46 were born in other countries. Of the 46 'foreigners' 23 were born
in England (plus 2 in Ireland and one in Scotland), 10 in Southern
Rhodesia/Rhodesia, 4 in India, and one in each of these countries:

Bermuda, Java, Swaziland, Mozambique, Portugal, Egypt

[Bob Dubery]

On Feb 28, 8:41 am, eusebius <eusebiu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does speaking English negate boer status in the author's opinion? What
> about Pieter Van Der Bijl? And of course Vintcent...in non-official
> tests. Looking through the list of South African players, we see
> numerous non-anglo names, like Zulch, Du Preez, Du Toit, Bacher, Le
> Roux, Marx, Meintjes, Burger, Kuys, and others. So it seems that the
> author has been at least a tad arbitrary and exclusionary in his
> selection.

Names can be deceptive, and one may be white but neither anglo nor
boer EG Bacher. As already noted, some Afrikaans families may end up
being anglicised, or may become attached to non-Afrikaans families by
marriage. The cricketing Kirstens speak English as a first language,
even though their surname is not particularly English. Some non-Anglo
SA surnames may be Hugenot rather than Dutch in origin - EG Kallis and
le Roux.

Several families emerged from unions between Scots male immigrants and
Afrikaner women. Donald is a good example. I was in the army with an
Afrikaans guy whose surname was McLeod.

It may be more complicated than it appears from the outside. The name
"Botha" is typically pronounced differently in what used to be the
Transvaal and in what used to be Natal. The Natal Bothas are mostly,
but not all, anglicised.

So it gets hard to decide who is Afrikaans and even harder to decide
who is "Boer".

[Bob Dubery]

On Feb 28, 5:38 pm, eusebius <eusebiu...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

> Certainly the post-Springboks (the Proteas, I should say) have seemed
> much more obvious in their Afrikaner influences, which has added a new
> dimension to their sledging efforts.

I don't think they'd slege in Afrikaans unless they were having a go
at Trott or Pietersen. There's not much point sledging in a language
the recipient doesn't understand.

[Bharat Rao]

On Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:02:26 PM UTC-5, Bob Dubery wrote:

> I don't think they'd slege in Afrikaans unless they were having a go
> at Trott or Pietersen. There's not much point sledging in a language
> the recipient doesn't understand.

Unless it translates to an even more effective curse in the other's language.

"Madar Chod"

Bharat

[Bob Dubery]

On Feb 28, 6:44 pm, Brian Lawrence <Brian_W_Lawre...@msn.com> wrote:
<snip>

> Doing a bit of research I was surprised that the first cricket team
> to win the Currie Cup was the Transvaal in 1889-90, at which time the
> Province was Boer. (Sir Donald Currie presented the Currie Cup to
> Kimberley a year earlier, when he had taken the first English team to
> South Africa - the Kimberley team later became Griqualand West, and
> the Griquas were mixed-race people [Dutch/native] who also spoke
> Afrikaans. It wasn't until 1892-93 that the first team from a British
> Province played in the Currie Cup [E Province].)

The Transvaal was an independent state back then and a Boer state.
However there were a lot of British immigrants in the province, and I
wonder if that cricket team wasn't largely British.

Kimberley, by then, was part of the Cape Province and thus under
British rule. Again there were a lot of British in the area. Also
unlikely that Griquas would have been playing for the Griqualand West
team back then.

[eusebius]

On Mar 1, 6:58 am, Bob Dubery <megap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 28, 8:41 am, eusebius <eusebiu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Does speaking English negate boer status in the author's opinion? What
> > about Pieter Van Der Bijl? And of course Vintcent...in non-official
> > tests. Looking through the list of South African players, we see
> > numerous non-anglo names, like Zulch, Du Preez, Du Toit, Bacher, Le
> > Roux, Marx, Meintjes, Burger, Kuys, and others. So it seems that the
> > author has been at least a tad arbitrary and exclusionary in his
> > selection.
>
> Names can be deceptive, and one may be white but neither anglo nor
> boer EG Bacher. As already noted, some Afrikaans families may end up
> being anglicised, or may become attached to non-Afrikaans families by
> marriage. The cricketing Kirstens speak English as a first language,
> even though their surname is not particularly English. Some non-Anglo
> SA surnames may be Hugenot rather than Dutch in origin - EG Kallis and
> le Roux.

Bacher, on first glance, seems a rather Germanic name. But I know
nothing of his family's provenance. Le Roux is clearly French, hence
the likely Huguenot origin. Interesting how Calvinist the early
Afrikaners were. The French Huguenots were also fleeing persecution-
the Dutch Reformed weren't). Of course Calvin himself was French. The
Scottish connection I guess must also be a Calvinist one
(Presbyterian).

Kallis to me is a Greek name wholly, not French, although there have
been long standing links between Greeks and France especially Southern
France, not huge, but significant enough (although Southern France,
that is Provence, wasn't a huge centre of Huguenot belief and
practice). Huguenot=French Calvinist, as no doubt you know.

>
> Several families emerged from unions between Scots male immigrants and
> Afrikaner women. Donald is a good example. I was in the army with an
> Afrikaans guy whose surname was McLeod.

Something definitely non-anglo about Donald's eyes :)

>
> It may be more complicated than it appears from the outside. The name
> "Botha" is typically pronounced differently in what used to be the
> Transvaal and in what used to be Natal. The Natal Bothas are mostly,
> but not all, anglicised.
>
> So it gets hard to decide who is Afrikaans and even harder to decide
> who is "Boer".

I guess it matters less these days in relatively integrated new South
Africa.

[eusebius]

Maa ki

[Bob Dubery]

On Mar 1, 8:00 am, eusebius <eusebiu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 1, 6:58 am, Bob Dubery <megap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 28, 8:41 am, eusebius <eusebiu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Does speaking English negate boer status in the author's opinion? What
> > > about Pieter Van Der Bijl? And of course Vintcent...in non-official
> > > tests. Looking through the list of South African players, we see
> > > numerous non-anglo names, like Zulch, Du Preez, Du Toit, Bacher, Le
> > > Roux, Marx, Meintjes, Burger, Kuys, and others. So it seems that the
> > > author has been at least a tad arbitrary and exclusionary in his
> > > selection.
>
> > Names can be deceptive, and one may be white but neither anglo nor
> > boer EG Bacher. As already noted, some Afrikaans families may end up
> > being anglicised, or may become attached to non-Afrikaans families by
> > marriage. The cricketing Kirstens speak English as a first language,
> > even though their surname is not particularly English. Some non-Anglo
> > SA surnames may be Hugenot rather than Dutch in origin - EG Kallis and
> > le Roux.
>
> Bacher, on first glance, seems a rather Germanic name. But I know
> nothing of his family's provenance.

The family is Jewish.

> Le Roux is clearly French, hence
> the likely Huguenot origin.

The origin of names is one thing, but see my comments about Afrikaans
families with Scottish surnames - you can draw false assumptions from
a surname.


<snip>

> > So it gets hard to decide who is Afrikaans and even harder to decide
> > who is "Boer".
>
> I guess it matters less these days in relatively integrated new South
> Africa.

If SA is integrated. It's not clear that it is - other than legally.
Extreme right wing types make a big deal about being a "Boer", though
they can't actually provide a definition.

[eusebius]

On Mar 1, 4:42 pm, Bob Dubery <megap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 1, 8:00 am, eusebius <eusebiu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Bacher, on first glance, seems a rather Germanic name. But I know
> > nothing of his family's provenance.
>
> The family is Jewish.

Yes, I thought it was. Most Jewish names are Germanic (Ashkenazy).

>
> > Le Roux is clearly French, hence
> > the likely Huguenot origin.
>
> The origin of names is one thing, but see my comments about Afrikaans
> families with Scottish surnames - you can draw false assumptions from
> a surname.

Of course. I am 1/4 Irish and 1/4 Scottish, and 1/2 Greek, with a
superficially Irish name. But it gets murkier once you go back more
than 2 generations. There seems to be German, Danish, English, so all
claims of ethnicity in migrant societies become moot.

>
> <snip>> > So it gets hard to decide who is Afrikaans and even harder to decide
> > > who is "Boer".
>
> > I guess it matters less these days in relatively integrated new South
> > Africa.
>
> If SA is integrated. It's not clear that it is - other than legally.
> Extreme right wing types make a big deal about being a "Boer", though
> they can't actually provide a definition.

Similar angst over here about refugees here. Really, it's small minded
and based on narrow fears and prejudices. Or as they used to say,
racism.