some interesting stats for murali and warne
legspinner
changed :-)
Some people have commented that Murali's record is 'enhanced' because
of (a) a large home ground advantage and (b) many tests against
Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.
Below are the career records for Murali and Warne for their test
matches excluding ALL of their home matches and ALL of their matches
against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. For the comparison to be fair, I
also exclude all of Murali's tests against Australia (since Warne has
never played against Australia) and Warne's tests against Sri Lanka
(since Murali has never played against Sri Lanka).
Murali:
Matches: 37 (out of a total of 115)
Wickets: 218
Average: 23.71
Strike rate: 55.21
Wickets per match: 5.89
Warne:
Matches: 65 (out of a total of 145)
Wickets: 335
Average: 24.91
Strike rate: 56.27
Wickets per match: 5.15
The records are remarkably similar - Murali takes more wickets per
match simply because he bowls more overs - but other than that there
is not much to separate them. Murali's record is marginally better,
but one would expect that his performance may get slightly worse
during the final years of his career, as it does for most bowlers.
Anyway, the basic message is that Murali's record is still outstanding
when it is adjusted (in an admittedly heavy-handed way) for the main
complaints which are sometimes made.
I guess some people might object to removing the Australia matches
from Murali's record and and the Sri Lanka matches from Warne's
record. Note that this is only done for the purpose of comparing the
records of Warne and Murali (Warne's record would undoubtedly be worse
had he played against Australia's batting), and not for looking at
their 'absolute' records.
However, here are the career records, leaving in the Australia and Sri
Lanka tests for Murali and Warne respectely, noting that these stats
should not be used to compare the two.
Murali:
Matches: 42 (out of a total of 115)
Wickets: 230
Average: 26.40
Strike rate: 59.17
Wickets per match: 5.48
Warne:
Matches: 73 (out of a total of 145)
Wickets: 372
Average: 24.56
Strike rate: 54.90
Wickets per match: 5.10
John Clark
Diggler
>
> The records are remarkably similar - Murali takes more wickets per
> match simply because he bowls more overs - but other than that there
> is not much to separate them. Murali's record is marginally better,
> but one would expect that his performance may get slightly worse
> during the final years of his career, as it does for most bowlers.
> Anyway, the basic message is that Murali's record is still outstanding
> when it is adjusted (in an admittedly heavy-handed way) for the main
> complaints which are sometimes made.
>
Murali is extraordinarily good at what he does - but what he also does
is chuck, so it'll always be very difficult to determine what
statistics others would have achieved if they were also allowed to
play the game illegally.
CricketLeague
"Diggler" <dnarm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:94d819ea-c965-4861...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Racist low iq idiot Diggler,
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/01/1096527941557.html
Andrew Flintoff and Brett Lee are Blatant CHUCKING CHEATS - Peter Roebuck
Action must be fixed
October 2, 2004
Unless Andrew Flintoff alters his action, he will be thrown into an
avoidable fracas, writes Peter Roebuck.
Andrew Flintoff's bowling action is provoking concern. His action has
deteriorated since he returned from his latest injury and now contains an
unmistakable jerk.
Before long, the roughness of his style is bound to attract the attention of
observers prepared to remove their eyes from a harmless tweaker suspected,
at worst, of reverse-throwing at a mild pace.
It is extraordinary that so much fuss has been made about a spinner at a
time when heads are being clattered and wickets taken by men whose menace
goes beyond an ability to turn the ball at right-angles. The delivery that
felled Brian Lara in Hampshire was the clearest throw since the ball that
removed Marcus Trescothick in Perth not so long ago.
Cricket is trying to find its way through the scientific and legal quagmire
that illegal bowling has become. Not that the issue was any more
satisfactorily dealt with in the past.
Such is the prevailing confusion that the danger arises that bowlers of all
sorts will feel free to send the ball down without taking heed of the
restraints supposedly imposed by the rules of the game.
Every country has strong opinions about all bowlers except their own, a
habit also detected during the outbreak of corruption that bedevilled the
game a few years ago. But then, corruption is not merely a matter of money
and, as usual, the International Cricket Council is left holding the baby -
an overrated activity.
Flintoff's action requires attention. Of course, he might not be conscious
of the roughness that has crept in over the course of a few months during
which his career has caught fire in the manner of an Olympic flame.
The suggestion that bowlers with illegal actions are culprits to be put
alongside hijackers, greedy politicians and men rubbing mint into the ball
is unkind. Still, footage is taken of every over bowled in a match and shown
to players in the evenings, so cricketers are not without information.
Accordingly, it is hard to believe that no one in the England camp is aware
this issue might crop up.
Flintoff is an important member of an emerging England side. Besides his
buffeting batting, he is a "strike" bowler in the sense that he is used in
short bursts and given the task of upsetting an innings.
He bowls fast and with hostility and favours the short-pitched delivery.
Armed with the old ball, he opens his chest even more and tries to cut the
ball away from the bat, the celebrated "reverse" swing of recent discovery.
In short, he is a handful.
Injuries have threatened to curtail his career as a bowler, a circumstance
bound to inhibit a swashbuckling style of batting that has emerged after a
long period underground.
Subsequent to his breakdowns, desperate to retain his menace and anxious to
protect his body without losing pace, the Lancastrian has put greater
emphasis on the use of chest, wrist and arm to hurl the ball down.
Unfortunately, the elbow also has come into play, as is almost inevitable
when wrist and shoulder are pushed to their limits. His raggedness is more
obvious when he moves around the wicket and bends the ball away from
left-handers.
Flintoff may remain within the leeway of 10 per cent that has been permitted
to fast bowlers since slow-motion film revealed that, otherwise, hardly
anyone would pass muster. Alternatively, he may stray outside that range. By
and large, the 10 per cent allowance reflects the capabilities of the naked
eye, which remains the surest guide in these affairs.
Since Flintoff's straightening of the elbow can be seen from a distance, he
might contravene even the amended rules. In that case, the matter must be
drawn forthwith to the attention of responsible officials so that it can be
confronted before it is too late.
At least it is possible nowadays to realise matters of this sort without
feeling that a player's position is thereby put in peril. Flintoff's action
requires the cricketing version of surgery. Otherwise, it will be raised
again by those persuaded that authorities omit to treat every ball upon its
merits.
Rats
Muralicheat is a cheat. Warne did not chuck the ball.
Macjoubert
Warne the dope ridden asshole womanizer tag notwithstanding had to
bowl in tandem with McGrath, Lee, McDermott among other Oz behemoths.
Murali bowled with Malinga, dozen_ordinary_Singhes with the only
notable bowler of repute Vaas.
The above makes Warne's achievements all the more respectable,
considering McGrath is also a 300+ wicket taking bowler.
Ian Thorpe
"Rats" <crapa...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:4514a7d3-7275-4189...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Warne took illegal steriods to get wickets.
If Murali is a cheat then Warne is a bigger cheat since only Muralis
doosra is debatable while all wickets Warne took can be
attributed to his illegal steroids.
Andrew Flintoff and Brett Lee are chucking cheats but never got called
because they are not brown skinned players.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/01/1096527941557.html
Andrew Flintoff and Brett Lee are Blatant Chuckers - Peter Roebuck
Ian Thorpe
"Macjoubert" <macjo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca3fe8ec-9c49-48e0...@t47g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Macjoubert,
You missed the the most important factor as usual.
By the time Warne came on to bowl his opponents are already
under severe pressure due to the first couple of batsmen
getting out to McGrath, Gillespie, Lee etc and on top of that
Warne having the worlds best batting line up providing him
with huge scores.
Murali is the best spin bowler in history. If Murali is accused of
cheating for only his doosra then Warne is a bigger cheat since
Warne took illegal steroids to get all his wickets.
Andrew Flintoff and Brett Lee never got called for illegal
deliveries because they are not brown skinned players from
the subcontinent.
Andrew Dunford
"legspinner" <jcl...@treasury.gov.au> wrote in message
news:fef744c8-73d7-4b04...@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I have not been around r.s.c for ages but it looks like not much has
> changed :-)
<snip>
> Anyway, the basic message is that Murali's record is still outstanding
> when it is adjusted (in an admittedly heavy-handed way) for the main
> complaints which are sometimes made.
Indeed - a point which has been made many times on rsc. However as you will
see from the responses, the figures aren't going to change anybody's mind on
this subject.
<snip>
Andrew
dechucka
TeAn...@gmail.com
> >
> Murali is extraordinarily good at what he does - but what he also does
> is chuck, so it'll always be very difficult to determine what
> statistics others would have achieved if they were also allowed to
> play the game illegally.
Murali chucks
Warne takes drugs and takes money from betting people
(for weather forecast, of course)
We need new spinner
For now Kumble is doing good.
Does warne have a degree in Meterology ?
TeAnau
TeAn...@gmail.com
Warne took drugs and was suspended.
if you subtract the wickets he took while on drungs Kumbe will be no.
2
TeAnau
spadma...@blgcanada.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
But as someone else pointed out in this thread, it's a lot easier for
a spinner to get wickets when (a) the score is 60 for 3 upon his
introduction as opposed to 90 for 1 and (b) his team has already put
up a ton of runs on the board when they batted. If you are correct
that McGrath ate into Warne's wickets, then that necessarily must mean
that Warne enjoyed the 60 for 3 score line more often than Murali.
So, the McGrath factor slices both ways.
Also, Warne undoubtedly had the better keepers, slip cordon and bat/
pad catchers (i.e Healy, Gilchrist, Taylor, Waugh, Hayden, Ponting,
and probably a few other sure-hand dudes that I have forgotten).
dechucka
<spadma...@blgcanada.com> wrote in message
news:16628d26-20fd-478d...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
interesting point you made in the last paragraph. Do people keep statistcs
of missed catches etc so we could see if your point is valid?
CricketLeague
<TeAn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bf5fd383-45b1-4f45...@t47g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
If you subtract the wickets Warne took after taking ILLEGAL
STEROIDS his career wicket count will be ZERO.
At least Muralis wicket count will STILL BE 600+ even
after his doosra wickets are removed from his wicket count.
Brett Lee and Andrew Flintoff NEVER GOT CALLED for
ILLEGAL DELIVERIES because they dont have INFERIOR
BROWN SKIN.
What if for a minute cricket fans from Australia, England, NZ and
South Africa STOP whining and whingeing like losers about
Murali and START admitting Brett Lee and Flintoff are
CHEATING CHUCKERS........and Shane Warne got his
wickets after taking ILLEGAL STEROIDS.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/01/1096527941557.html
Andrew Flintoff and Brett Lee are Blatant CHEATING CHUCKERS - Peter Roebuck
Ian Thorpe
"dechucka" <dech...@vomithotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4754a33b$0$22941$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
dechuka,
You snip because you are a loser with no counter points
to my logical arguments.
D Ramapriya
>
> The records are remarkably similar -
Yep, especially in mediocrity where it matters.
Murali 40 avg, SR of 82
Warne 43 avg, SR of 81
Ramapriya
Ian Thorpe
"Andrew Dunford" <adun...@artifax.net> wrote in message
news:5rjm1tF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> "legspinner" <jcl...@treasury.gov.au> wrote in message
> news:fef744c8-73d7-4b04...@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>I have not been around r.s.c for ages but it looks like not much has
>> changed :-)
>
> <snip>
>
>> Anyway, the basic message is that Murali's record is still outstanding
>> when it is adjusted (in an admittedly heavy-handed way) for the main
>> complaints which are sometimes made.
>
> Indeed - a point which has been made many times on rsc.
I didnt see you arguing and mentioning the same point
with the murali haters dechuka, Erchie, Rats and the rest.
>However as you will see from the responses, the figures aren't going to
>change anybody's mind on this subject.
>
> <snip>
>
> Andrew
Andrew,
You didnt respond to the Yuvraj thread where you said Yuvraj
should not be selected now in the current series despite his
tremendous OD form because of his test form in 2006 :-))
That was great logic from you. I am sure cricinfo geniuses
are writing another column with a mention of your great cricket
knowledge.
Macjoubert
> By the time Warne came on to bowl his opponents are already
> under severe pressure due to the first couple of batsmen
> getting out to McGrath, Gillespie, Lee etc and on top of that
> Warne having the worlds best batting line up providing him
> with huge scores.
Cuts both ways, there were many times when Warne effected collapses in
Anglo teams.
Ian Thorpe
Anglo teams who are not good spin players.
legspinner
Thanks for the reply, Andrew.
I was wrong about one thing in my post. I said that 'not much has
changed' in r.s.c since I was last here. In fact, things seem to be
much worse. In the past, a post could expect to receive about a 50/50
mix of 'reasonable' responses and rubbish. Seems like that has become
90% rubbish.
**MattO**
>
> Murali is extraordinarily good at what he does - but what he also does
> is chuck, so it'll always be very difficult to determine what
> statistics others would have achieved if they were also allowed to
> play the game illegally.
Three differences between Warne and Murali.
1) Warne has never had pitches doctored for him. Even Sydney is not as
spin friendly as it was in the Holland days.
2) The majority of Warne's success hasn't come against Zimbabwe and
Bangladesh.
3) Warne is a bowler - Murali is not a bowler.
End of arguement. Michael Slater and Mark Taylor have taken more
legitimate wickets than Murali.
alvey
> I have not been around r.s.c for ages but it looks like not much has
> changed :-)
>
> Some people have commented that Murali's record is 'enhanced' because
> of (a) a large home ground advantage and (b) many tests against
> Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.
I disagree. His record is enhanced because he chucks.
alvey
alvey
> So, the McGrath factor slices both ways.
Not really. Let's try some simple maths from the above examples.
Q1. How many wickets are left when the score is 3/60?
Q2. How many wickets are left when the score is 1/90?
hth
alvey
nite...@yahoo.com
> On Dec 4, 9:37 am, Diggler <dnarmstr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Murali is extraordinarily good at what he does - but what he also does
> > is chuck, so it'll always be very difficult to determine what
> > statistics others would have achieved if they were also allowed to
> > play the game illegally.
>
> Three differences between Warne and Murali.
>
> 1) Warne has never had pitches doctored for him. Even Sydney is not as
> spin friendly as it was in the Holland days.
>
By that logic you would have thought warne would have killed it in SL
and India where the pitches were also "doctored" for spinners? but not
the case.
> 2) The majority of Warne's success hasn't come against Zimbabwe and
> Bangladesh.
Quite an ignorant argument. A large part of warnes success has come
against England. Murali also has an exceptional record against
england...if murali played England (instead of the minnows) as much as
warne did, he probably would have had a better record than he
currently does.
>
> 3) Warne is a bowler - Murali is not a bowler.
>
I believe Warne is a better bowler. No stats or laws can prove that
though.
Fred
Maybe not change minds, but I thought the OP made the point well and I
appreciated their efforts. Given that you can never compare Warne &
Murali's record to the extent of letting them both bowl in exactly the
same match conditions with the same opponents and same team mates
supporting them, this seems a pretty fair way of leveling some of the
playing field.
For my part, Warne & Murali have both been incredible bowlers.
They're quite different and have their own strengths and (some)
weaknesses. I count myself as fortunate to have seen both. Picking
the better of the pair is subjective, a fun game, but I doubt we'll
ever come up with the definitive answer of who it should be.
dechucka
<nite...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c15d2c5d-014b-44af...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Wasrne bowls murali chucks
next
>
CricketLeague
"**MattO**" <mat...@rleague.com> wrote in message
news:41600414-eb99-4b4e...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
MattO is a BIGOTED WHINING, WHINGEING TYPICAL AUSSIE
LOSING RACIST who cant stand a non-white man breaking a
white mans record.
Murali is the worlds best spin bowler in cricket history.
Shane Warne is a DRUGGIE with TAINTED ILLEGITIMATE
RECORD.
Laxman took more legitimate wickets than DRUGGIE Shane
Warne.
End of argument.
Shane Warne was caught only once in his career. No one knows
how long he has been taking illegal steroids to get all his wickets.
If baseball players who doesnt need as much stamina,
strength and physical endurance as cricket players
take illegal undetectable steroids then Shane Warne
must be taking illegal steroids all his life and got
caught only once.
Shane Warne is a stocky guy. He wouldnt have
had that much stamina and strength to play cricket
for such a long time without taking illegal steroids.
Shane Warnes bowling record must be purged
from cricket records by ICC.
Muralitharan is the best spin bowler bar none in cricket history.
Even excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe wickets, Murali will beat Warnes
record very soon.
Warne is a druggie, he took illegal steroids for all his wickets whereas
only Muralis doosra is debatable.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/01/1096527941557.html
Andrew Flintoff and Brett Lee are Blatant CHUCKING CHEATS - Peter Roebuck
CricketLeague
dechuka is a BIGOTED WHINING, WHINGEING TYPICAL AUSSIE
LOSING RACIST who cant stand a non-white man breaking a
white mans record.
Murali is the worlds best spin bowler in cricket history.
Shane Warne is a DRUGGIE with TAINTED ILLEGITIMATE
RECORD.
Laxman took more legitimate wickets than DRUGGIE Shane
Warne.
End of argument.
Next.
CricketLeague
dechuka is a BIGOTED WHINING, WHINGEING TYPICAL AUSSIE
LOSING RACIST who cant stand a non-white man breaking a
white mans record.
Murali is the worlds best spin bowler in cricket history.
Shane Warne is a DRUGGIE with TAINTED ILLEGITIMATE
RECORD.
Laxman took more legitimate wickets than DRUGGIE Shane
Warne.
End of argument.
Shane Warne was caught only once in his career. No one knows
CricketLeague
"alvey" <is...@allinterested.com> wrote in message
news:9cfc4ijxjwm0$.1g1kbztucbdxe.dlg@40tude.net...
Racist moron alvey,
Its easy to bowl to batsmen and get them out when they
are under severe pressure at 60/3 than at 90/1 that too
knowing fully well your tema mates Taylor, Waugh
brothers, Ponting, Hayden, Langer, Gilchrist built up
a huge score and the confidence of having that talent
behind you.
alvey is a BIGOTED WHINING, WHINGEING TYPICAL AUSSIE
CricketLeague
alvey,
Nobody gives a shit about your low iq racist moron's opinion.
Murali is the WORLD RECORD HOLDER.
LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT, idiot.
**MattO**
>
> MattO is a BIGOTED WHINING, WHINGEING TYPICAL AUSSIE
> LOSING RACIST who cant stand a non-white man breaking a
> white mans record.
Actually I was happy when Courtney Walsh had the record and an
outstanding fast bowler and ambassador to the game. Above all else his
bowling action was legal.
Shane Warne is still the highest wicket taking bowler. Murali is just
the highest wicket taker. His action is suited for Baseball and not
for Cricket. Same Trevor Chappell is suited for Lawn Bowls.
> Muralitharan is the best spin bowler bar none in cricket history.
The Aussies made very light work of his Baseball action recently.
CricketLeague
> On Dec 5, 9:10 am, "CricketLeague" <CricketlLea...@USA.com> wrote:
>>
>> MattO is a BIGOTED WHINING, WHINGEING TYPICAL AUSSIE
>> LOSING RACIST who cant stand a non-white man breaking a
>> white mans record.
>
> Actually I was happy when Courtney Walsh had the record and an
> outstanding fast bowler and ambassador to the game.
Racist MattO
That does NOT prove you are not a racist.
You very well knew its only a matter of time before STEROID DRUGGIE
Shane Warne beats Walsh's record.
>Above all else his
> bowling action was legal.
As is Murali's bowling action.
> Shane Warne is still the highest wicket taking bowler.
Shane Warne is still the highest wicket taking bowler with
ILLEGAL STEROIDS.
>Murali is just
> the highest wicket taker.
Murali is the BEST SPIN BOWLER and HIGHEST WICKET
TAKER in the history of cricket.
Shane Warne is just a DRUGGIE.
>His action is suited for Baseball and not
> for Cricket.
Don Bradman, Steve Waugh, Peter Roebuck to name a few
thought Murali is perfectly suited for cricket.
>Same Trevor Chappell is suited for Lawn Bowls.
>
Irrelevant to the current topic.
>> Muralitharan is the best spin bowler bar none in cricket history.
>
> The Aussies made very light work of his Baseball action recently.
The Indians MASSACRED STEROID DRUGGIE Shane Warne
in spin mecca.
You are a BIGOTED RACIST because you DONT even want to
ACCEPT Muralis wickets that were taken with NON-doosra balls.
Aussies are NOTHING but WHINING, WHINGEING JEALOUS
RACIST LOSERS.
Shane Warne was caught only once in his career. No one knows
how long he has been taking illegal steroids to get all his wickets.
If baseball players who doesnt need as much stamina,
strength and physical endurance as cricket players
take illegal undetectable steroids then Shane Warne
must be taking illegal steroids all his life and got
caught only once.
Shane Warne is a stocky guy. He wouldnt have
had that much stamina and strength to play cricket
for such a long time without taking illegal steroids.
Shane Warnes bowling record must be purged
from cricket records by ICC.
Muralitharan is the best spin bowler bar none in cricket history.
Even excluding Bangladesh and Zimbabwe wickets, Murali will beat Warnes
Rats
> Maybe not change minds, but I thought the OP made the point well and I
> appreciated their efforts. Given that you can never compare Warne &
> Murali's record to the extent of letting them both bowl in exactly the
> same match conditions with the same opponents and same team mates
> supporting them, this seems a pretty fair way of leveling some of the
> playing field.
>
> For my part, Warne & Murali have both been incredible bowlers.
> They're quite different and have their own strengths and (some)
> weaknesses. I count myself as fortunate to have seen both. Picking
> the better of the pair is subjective, a fun game, but I doubt we'll
I consider myself highly unfortunate to have seen Muralicheat throw in
games.
CricketLeague
"Rats" <crapa...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:ca2afbb3-b89b-43ef...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Rats,