boxers vs. wrestlers
Paul B
closest thing I can think of is Mike Tyson appearing at a
Wrestlemania. I didn't get a chance to watch that match, but
from what you tell me I'm not missing very much if anything at
all.
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John Carlo
wrestler bouts???
bigdaddy...@my-deja.com
Paul B <paul_b197...@my-dejanews.com.invalid> wrote:
> You were referring to the famous bout with Antonio Inoki.
Damn, that was booooooooring. Ali had an altercation with Gorilla
Monsoon on the WWF circuit before meeting Inoki in Japan. Damn, all
this knowledge makes me feel 20 years older than I really am.
The
> closest thing I can think of is Mike Tyson appearing at a
> Wrestlemania.
I can think of so many others, for example Leon Spinks fought Nobuhiko
Takada in the UWFI in the early 90's. Buster Douglas hit Randy Savage
in 1990, Tommy Hearns hit Bret Hart on RAW in 1997, etc, etc, etc.
I didn't get a chance to watch that match, but
> from what you tell me I'm not missing very much if anything at
> all.
>
You didn't see Hickenbottom's final WWF match? Blasphemy. Shawn had
courtisone shots, and worked it with tons of pain, he and Austin put
together a pretty solid match, mind you, my boy HBK smoked the beer
guzzling sumbitch.
Tyson went in with DX, but then swerved them and aligned with "Cold
Stone" (that's how Tyson pronounced it).
Tyler Durden
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
FightFan50
>Date: 4/20/00 6:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <25165-38...@storefull-174.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>
>Group: rec.sport.boxing Date: Thu, Apr 20, 2000, 10:43pm (EDT+4) From:
>gr...@on.aibn.com (speedo) boxers vs. wrestlers
>With all this wrestling nonsense going on this ng I do remember in the
>early 70's a farce of a fight in Tokyo when Ali took on the Japanese
>heavyweight wrestling champion. For fifteen rounds Ali leaned against
>the ropes throwing punches into the air while the wrestler lay on his
>back kicking at Ali. It was a total joke and for awhile tarnished Ali's
>reputation.
>
>~~It tarnished Antonio Inoki's reputation much worse, especially since
>he had well known 'hooker' Karl Gotch in his corner who gave him advice
>that Inoki refused to listen to~~
>
>I do remember that in the past there have been other legit. bouts
>between wrestlers and boxers. In theory if the boxer doesn't get a KO
>with the first punch the fight should be over once the wrestler gets the
>boxer's legs. Does anyone know the results of these previous contests.
>
>~~Lou Thesz (6 time NWA world champ and well known 'hooker') defeated
>"Jersey" Joe Walcott years ago but not after receiving a hard punch to
>the jaw first (Joe hit Thesz hard, but on the way down he grapped Joe's
>legs and applied a submission hold--legit). Nobuhiko Takada defeated
>Trevor Berbick by countout (legit). Tamura defeated Matthew Saad
>Muhammad by submission (looked legit but some say worked). Andre The
>Giant fought boxer Chuck Wepner in a worked match that saw Vince give
>Andre the nod to manhandle the 6'6" Wepner near the end which he did. Of
>course Leon Spinks was involved in several terribly worked matches, Ali
>fought wrestler Buddy Wolfe (a preparation match for Inoki which was
>supposed to be worked) in a worked match winning by TKO i believe, and
>there are others.
>
>Kent
>
>
there was also masakatsu funaki vs roberto duran (a bloated, old, and out of
shape duran)....which was legit.
i'm assuming the tamura-saad muhammad match wasn't a work, because saad
muhammad was old/past his prime by the time that match took place.
was the thesz-walcott bout legit, or a work? i'm assuming it was legit because
you put it in there with other legit matches (although the berbick-takada match
was originally supposed to be a work, but berbick freaked out due to the real
kicks to the legs he received from takada, and ended up being counted out of
the ring).
John "The Mayor" Curley
>with the first punch the fight should be over once the wrestler gets the
>boxer's legs.
Why would it have to be the first punch? Couldn't a boxer use his lateral
movement and land many punches?
A good boxer does not stand flatfooted in front of his opponent.
I would think it would be pretty damn hard to grab the legs of Roy Jones Jr.
or Mike Tyson or any top contender, for that matter, without sucking up
some serious leather.
Not saying either sport is better. Both wrestling and boxing are great!
KrAzY k
Group: rec.sport.boxing Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000, 5:07am (EDT+4) From:
fight...@aol.com (FightFan50) Re: boxers vs. wrestlers
Date: 4/20/00 6:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <25165-38...@storefull-174.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Group: rec.sport.boxing Date: Thu, Apr 20, 2000, 10:43pm (EDT+4) From:
gr...@on.aibn.com (speedo) boxers vs. wrestlers With all this wrestling
nonsense going on this ng I do remember in the early 70's a farce of a
fight in Tokyo when Ali took on the Japanese heavyweight wrestling
champion. For fifteen rounds Ali leaned against the ropes throwing
punches into the air while the wrestler lay on his back kicking at Ali.
It was a total joke and for awhile tarnished Ali's reputation.
~~It tarnished Antonio Inoki's reputation much worse, especially since
he had well known 'hooker' Karl Gotch in his corner who gave him advice
that Inoki refused to listen to~~
I do remember that in the past there have been other legit. bouts
with the first punch the fight should be over once the wrestler gets the
~~Lou Thesz (6 time NWA world champ and well known 'hooker') defeated
"Jersey" Joe Walcott years ago but not after receiving a hard punch to
the jaw first (Joe hit Thesz hard, but on the way down he grapped Joe's
legs and applied a submission hold--legit). Nobuhiko Takada defeated
Trevor Berbick by countout (legit). Tamura defeated Matthew Saad
Muhammad by submission (looked legit but some say worked). Andre The
Giant fought boxer Chuck Wepner in a worked match that saw Vince give
Andre the nod to manhandle the 6'6" Wepner near the end which he did. Of
course Leon Spinks was involved in several terribly worked matches, Ali
fought wrestler Buddy Wolfe (a preparation match for Inoki which was
supposed to be worked) in a worked match winning by TKO i believe, and
there are others.
Kent
there was also masakatsu funaki vs roberto duran (a bloated, old, and
out of shape duran)....which was legit.
i'm assuming the tamura-saad muhammad match wasn't a work, because saad
muhammad was old/past his prime by the time that match took place.
was the thesz-walcott bout legit, or a work? i'm assuming it was legit
because you put it in there with other legit matches (although the
berbick-takada match was originally supposed to be a work, but berbick
freaked out due to the real kicks to the legs he received from takada,
and ended up being counted out of the ring).
..............................................................
The Thesz/Walcott match was 100% legit. I wish I had more details other
than it taking place in the 60's. I believe Lou applied a double
wristlock for the submission. I'd love to see the Funaki vs. Duran
mismatch. I remember the Jack Sharkey vs. wrestler "Cowboy" Lutrell
matchup back in the 50's. Lutrell wore gloves and was KO'd rather
quickly and knocked through the ropes. Takada agreed not to kick to the
legs but double crossed Berbick as the match started and pissed him off.
Yeah, the Tamura/Muhammad match had to be legit. Tamura delivered some
killer kicks leading to a rear naked choke.
Kent
KrAzY k
Group: rec.sport.boxing Date: Thu, Apr 20, 2000, 11:56pm From:
ama...@webtv.net (John Carlo) Re: boxers vs. wrestlers
wrestler bouts???
I have the Tamura vs. Muhammad, Inoki vs. Ali, Andre vs. Wepner, and
Takada vs. Berbick matches. I'm preparing to get Thesz vs. Walcott soon.
Kent
John Carlo
trade you tapes
EZRA MICHAEL L
I've got copies of Inoki-Spinks, Wepner-Inoki, Mildenberger-Inoki.
Would you like to make a trade?
Mike
KrAzY k (deadam...@webtv.net) wrote:
: Group: rec.sport.boxing Date: Thu, Apr 20, 2000, 10:43pm (EDT+4) From:
Frank
That is a silly comparison. I personally know a few professional heavyweight
boxers and they sustain a tremendous amount of punishment during daily
training. That have tremendous endurance, hand speed, and excellent chins.
A wrestler is all show and no go. A boxer is a true fighter but a wrestler
is an actor. Look what happened to the WWF wrestler Bart Gunn when he
stepped in the ring with Butterbean in a 3 round fight. I never saw someone
get hit so flush as Bart did. Why do you think he is now out of wrestling?
Bart was seriously injured by a suboptimal wannabe fighter within the first
few seconds. When the Ultimate fighting championship was on PPV, an
ex-boxer by the name of James Warring (Cruserweight) entered and KO'ed all
his opponents (martial art experts in many different styles) making it to
the championship fight. Guys like Tyson, Ike, and Tua are pure animals that
would rip apart any individual outside of the ring if confronted. Lets get
real and not get lost in the fantasy world of wrestling.
nigelm...@my-deja.com
deadam...@webtv.net ("KrAzY k") wrote:
>
> Group: rec.sport.boxing Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000, 5:07am (EDT+4) From:
> fight...@aol.com (FightFan50) Re: boxers vs. wrestlers
> From: deadam...@webtv.net ("KrAzY k")
> Date: 4/20/00 6:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> Message-id: <25165-38...@storefull-174.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
From:
> gr...@on.aibn.com (speedo) boxers vs. wrestlers With all this wrestling
> nonsense going on this ng I do remember in the early 70's a farce
actually it happened in the mid 70's
In theory if the boxer doesn't get a KO
> with the first punch the fight should be over once the wrestler gets
the
> boxer's legs.
Agreed 100%, a good judo fighter can do it as easily as a Greco.Roman,
or Free-Stylist, a good Brazilian Ju-Jutsu fighter can probably do it
as well.
Does anyone know the results of these previous contests.
> ~~Lou Thesz (6 time NWA world champ and well known 'hooker') defeated
> "Jersey" Joe Walcott years ago but not after receiving a hard punch to
> the jaw first (Joe hit Thesz hard, but on the way down he grapped
Joe's
> legs and applied a submission hold--legit).
Heel yeah, Lou Thez was a legit shooter, when he worked carnivals, many
times the local tough guy would say Wrasslin was fake, and the promotor
would let the imbecile step into the ring with "Hooker" Lou Thez, and
Lou would shoot on the fool, strech he's ass out, and make him tap like
a baby. Good ole days. Lou has said if he was a young man today he'd
definitely be in the UFC.
>
> there was also masakatsu funaki vs roberto duran (a bloated, old, and
> out of shape duran)....which was legit.
Masakatsu Funaki might have been washed up at 30 because of all the
punishement he took in Pancrase (a hybrid from Pankration wich dates
back to the original Olympic games along with Pugilism, and Greco-
Roman), but in he's prime he was one of the premier shooters around, he
was a master of submission wrestling, and really damn fast on the mat,
and a bigger man than Duran, he would have taken him down in the blink
of an eye, and make him go "no mas" una vez mas.
>
> The Thesz/Walcott match was 100% legit. I wish I had more details
other
> than it taking place in the 60's.
When did it happen, tell us the ages of both guys at the time, please.
Thez was peobably in he's 40's.
Takada agreed not to kick to the
> legs but double crossed Berbick as the match started and pissed him
off.
Agreed, Takada has an history of doing this, he also double crossed
Koji Kitao, the math was supposed to be "worked shoot style", but once
Takada found the opening that Kick was total shoot, I know the story
behind this VERY WELL.
> Yeah, the Tamura/Muhammad match had to be legit. Tamura delivered some
> killer kicks leading to a rear naked choke.
>
Didn't see that one, but as far as nowadays goes, NOBODY on the planet
can make a worket shoot style look as realistic as Kioshy Tamura, he's
an absolute master at it.
Nigel Matthews
nigelm...@my-deja.com
"Frank" <bab...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Frank please do not feel insulted by what I'm about to say, as I don't
question your overall inteligence, but by your post you show a
tremendous ignorance to the subject matter at hand, let me clear up a
few mistakes you made.
> Look what happened to the WWF wrestler Bart Gunn when he
> stepped in the ring with Butterbean in a 3 round fight.
But isn't the name of the game, Boxer Vs. Wrestler, instead of Boxer
Vs. Wrestler trying to Box? You cannot take a man out of he's element
and expect him to perform at the same standard, you can't expect Gary
Payton to switch from Point Guard to Center, and remain effective,
anymore than you can expect a top Free-Style wrestler to start Greco-
Roman overnight and retain he's world class superiority.
It's all about styles, and how they mix, Bart Gunn might have been a
good Greco-Roman wrestler at Colege level, but he wasn't executing
takedowns against Butterbean was he?
Besides Bart is not a true shooter, and neither was Inoki. What do you
think would have happened had Muhammad Ali stepped in the ring with Dan
Gable instead of Antonio Inoki? I love Ali, bu the would have been
pummeled into dog shit, and anybody with a decent knowledge of real
wrestling can tell you that. Unless De La Hoya got he's track shoes on,
I would take him down, and apply a submission soooo fast it wouldn't be
worth my trouble.
I never saw someone
> get hit so flush as Bart did. Why do you think he is now out of
wrestling?
Mistaken again, Bart is very much active, wrestling for All Japan Pro
Wrestling under the name Mike barton, there's more to the wrestling
universe than WWF, you know?
> Bart was seriously injured by a suboptimal wannabe fighter within the
first
> few seconds. When the Ultimate fighting championship was on PPV, an
> ex-boxer by the name of James Warring (Cruserweight) entered and
KO'ed all
> his opponents (martial art experts in many different styles) making
it to
> the championship fight.
Greco-Roman is the oldest martial art ever, I didn't see Warring
against any good wrestlers, in the old days of UFC the only credentials
you needed was to be big, and ugly.
Guys like Tyson, Ike, and Tua are pure animals that
actually David Tua is the nephew of Wild Samoan Afa, who was a wrestler
for quite a while
> would rip apart any individual outside of the ring if confronted.
Lets get
> real and not get lost in the fantasy world of wrestling.
>
Why don't you get some money together and put Iron Mike inside a small
ring with a beast like Mark kerr, or Alexander Karelin, I'm very
curious to see how long Tyon's wonderful footwork could escape a
takedown from a world class wrestler inside a confined space such as a
ring.
1 takedown, 1 ankle lock submission, 1 tap out.
Nuff said
John Carlo
vs the winner of the wrestling bouts????? warring was choked off in
about 1 minute --------what would of happened if bart was allowed to do
takedowns, which was not in the rules????? oh thats right butterbean
would of been on his back getting pinned -lets not get confused all the
MANLY atttributes a boxer posesses means little against a wrestler-great
chin ? tough? hand speed ? punching power? boxing stamina? all means
nothing when your on your back
when a good wrestler takes a boxer down the boxers attributes are gone
he is a fish out of water
zroaster
was Ali or Holmes, but they were being ushered through the crowd by their
personal security guard, who just happened to be the one and only Pat
Patterson............and you are right about "Bart Gunn", he was a shoot
fighter originally, he would of put a Stu Hart special onto the Bean before
Esch could of loaded up on him...........how do you connect with a man who
immediately drops low for the takedown...........you don't.
John Carlo <ama...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7591-39...@storefull-158.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
KrAzY k
nigelm...@my-deja.com
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
>
> I have the Lou Thesz Documentary on video where he talks about the
> Walcott match, and winning it. I'll go over the tape and see if I can
> find out more details. Lou mentions that there are only 4 living
hookers
> today, Karl Gotch, Tony Cecchine, Billy Robinson, and Lou of course.
Yes, heard this before, except for Tony Cecchine who I've never heard
off in my life. Lou also said that Stu Hart was never a real shooter,
and neither was Bret, although I certainly don't question Bret's legit
toughness.
Explain me something about Frank, and Karl, are they related, and Frank
did train Dean Malenko, correct?
I
> can't believe that "Judo" Gene LeBell didn't utilize 'hooks' in his
> repertoire. LeBell was a master shooter and was involved in many
private
> dojo matches but actually never learned how to hook proficiently.
I hear a rumour that LeBell once made Steven Seagal tap out, ever hear
that one?
Gotch
> trained several wrestlers to hook but had one top student, Yoshiaki
> Fujiwara.
The originator of the "Fujiwara armbar", correct?
I have a UWA (the UWA had Pancrase style matches) tape that
> has a 20 min 'lock flow' session in which Fujiwara displays his
hooking
> ability. it's funny to see the torture he puts his buddy through. I'm
> hoping to see some hooking in the UFC one day.
He's already 31 years old, I hear 3 years ago that Coleman's manager
(Richard Hamilton?) was trying to lure him in. I expect Karelin will
win a 4th Gold medal in Sidney and then field offers from all over Pro
Wrestling, the WWF had interest in him ever since he's Barcelona
triumph, and there wore a few NFL teams who also wanted him. Personally
love to see him in AJPW.
Hey how about Karelin Vs. Alekxander Medvdev (spelling) from the 70's?
Karelin would annihilate
> Tyson within the parameters of a ring. I'm quite sure that he could do
> it in the street also.
Not many fighters have the right style, tools to counter a good
wrestler, I suspect a prime Wweet Pea with he's phenomenal footwork,
ability to fight going backwards and magnificent counterpunches might
have been one.
I saw Karelin's worked bout, in RINGS, with
> Maeda.
Yeah, so did I, had the chance to shake Mr Karelin's hand once when he
came to town on a Greco-Roman exibition. He's one big dude, let me tell
you.
I wish Karelin would cross train and mix it up with the best of
> MMA/NHB.
He would definitely have to take he's time to adapt, no matter how much
of a monster he may be at Greco, he can't change switch styles and
expect to win, NHB is an whole different animal.
I'd love to see Karelin wrestle Kerr in Free-Style on a 1 day's notice
to see how it would go. Karelin has a good 30 lbs of weight advantage,
and I wonder if 30 lbs are enough to overcome him coming into somebody
else's backyard.
BTW ever seen this Brock Lesnar guy, is he good?
Speaking of Maeda, I have his famous shoot with Andre The
> Giant. It's funny to see the near 600lb drunken Andre refuse to sell
for
> Maeda leading to the shoot kicks..etc.
>
Not that exciting, Kitao shooting on John tenta was almost as boring.
Who was it that Maeda once shot on in NJPW, was it Ricky Choshu?
I'm still waiting for the day that Scott Reichsteiner gets a real bad
case of roid rage and shoots on Bollea big time. I hear UFC tried to
lure one of the Steiners in, some time in 1995.
LPHamel
deadam...@webtv.net ("KrAzY k") writes:
>I have the Lou Thesz Documentary on video where he talks about the
>Walcott match, and winning it. I'll go over the tape and see if I can
>find out more details. Lou mentions that there are only 4 living hookers
>today, Karl Gotch, Tony Cecchine, Billy Robinson, and Lou of course. I
>can't believe that "Judo" Gene LeBell didn't utilize 'hooks' in his
>repertoire. LeBell was a master shooter and was involved in many private
>dojo matches but actually never learned how to hook proficiently.
This is a fascinating thread.
Apologies in advance to those who object to ``junking up'' a boxing newsgroup
with wrestling stuff.
Help me out: What's the difference between a ``hooker'' and a ``shooter''?
Where does Mr. Saito fit in?
Who among the prominent U.S. pro wrestlers would be considered shooters or
hookers?
John Carlo
punching puke who couldnt defend himself against a heavyweight boxer how
is he going to do it against a top wrestler----he is a joke i read his
life story and he talks about his one and only street fight he talks
about how he sucker punches some bar drunk and then he ran
away--------this guy couldnt do shit in a real fight, the only boxers
who would be able to fight on the street against another tough guy or
wrestler would need a knockout punch , fast hands and be a nasty fuck
who is going to sucker punch before the fight even begins. but most
importantly in a real go a boxer would need alot of strength to go with
the punching or forget it ------ i remember reading about marvin
haglers one street fight agaisnt another guy his OWN SIZE which is SMALL
and the guy tackled hagler and had him under a car , if he couldnt fight
and he is alot stronger how can sweet pea---when you say footwork are
you talking about him running for his life????? put him in a room or
bathroom i would rip his head off and stuff the rest off him down the
bowl all he can do is slip piunches big deal you cant slip body punches
and if you can punch his waist you could smother him easy fact his i met
the guy i thought i was looking at high school 9 th grader i i would
love to see him bend down with that bending shit he loves to do -damn he
is half way down to the ground as it is
sweat pea is a joke when it comes to real fighting
The Sanity Cruzer
>Help me out: What's the difference between a ``hooker'' and a ``shooter''?
A "hooker" is someone you can pay so you become a "shooter", should you be
so inclined.
TSC
nigelm...@my-deja.com
ama...@webtv.net (John Carlo) wrote:
First of all, John, I'd like to say that I enjoy this thread, and I
enjoy discussing it with you.
> sweet pea are you kidding me!!!!!!!!!!! sweat pea is a midget none
> punching puke who couldnt defend himself against a heavyweight boxer
how
> is he going to do it against a top wrestler
You misunderstood me, I meant to say a fighter with Sweet Pea's tools,
not the diminutive Pernell himself, but if you could find a small
wrestler, it would be interesting.
Bottomline the wrestler will not trade punches with the Boxer, the
wrestler will shoot for the legs, and a boxer's only chance of
remaining upright inside a confined space is by having very good
footwork to evade the takedowns, Sweet Pea could punch while going
backwards very rapidly.
----he is a joke i read his
> life story and he talks about his one and only street fight he talks
> about how he sucker punches some bar drunk and then he ran
> away--------this guy couldnt do shit in a real fight, the only boxers
> who would be able to fight on the street against another tough guy or
> wrestler would need a knockout punch , fast hands
No matter how much the Boxing marks here in RSB may like to think it
wouldn't happen, fact is the wrestler would take the boxer down very
early in the bout, and the only chance the boxer stands is if he scores
with a punch before the wrestler shoots in on the legs, obviously the
only boxers who can suceed at this are the one's with 1 punch KO juice,
so guys like Ivan Robinson, or Willie Wise need not apply.
and be a nasty fuck
> who is going to sucker punch before the fight even begins. but most
> importantly in a real go a boxer would need alot of strength to go
with
> the punching or forget it ------ i remember reading about marvin
> haglers one street fight agaisnt another guy his OWN SIZE which is
SMALL
> and the guy tackled hagler and had him under a car , if he couldnt
fight
> and he is alot stronger how can sweet pea---when you say footwork are
> you talking about him running for his life?????
I'm talking about surviving as long as possible, plus if he can punch
while backing up, there's a good chance he might score with a lucky
punch before being taken down.
Hey Johnny, after reading my post did you have some mental image of
Pernell Whitaker against Mark Kerr? LOL. How about Tom erikson Vs
Fernando Vargas?
put him in a room or
> bathroom i would rip his head off and stuff the rest off him down the
> bowl
So could I, but even a sissy puncher can KO you if it lands on the
button. But yeah, I'm soo much stronger than Pernell that it wouldn't
be that much fun, hell, I put him in a guillotine choke, and he'd tap
out like my girlfriend usually does.
all he can do is slip piunches big deal you cant slip body punches
Pernell slipped plenty against Chavez in 1993.
> and if you can punch his waist you could smother him easy fact his i
met
> the guy i thought i was looking at high school 9 th grader i i would
> love to see him bend down with that bending shit he loves to do -damn
he
> is half way down to the ground as it is
> sweat pea is a joke when it comes to real fighting
>
I agree with most you say, but make no mistake I'm a big fan of Pernell
Whitaker.
nigelm...@my-deja.com
That's why I start them. Pitty some folks can't appreciate something
they don't understand.
> Apologies in advance to those who object to ``junking up'' a boxing
newsgroup
> with wrestling stuff.
No problem, your big enough to apologise, I'm big enough to forgive,
such good manners are rare around RSB.
> Where does Mr. Saito fit in?
You mean Japanese Pro Wrestler Masa Saito?
> Who among the prominent U.S. pro wrestlers would be considered
shooters or
> hookers?
>
Well, in the 80's the wrestling craze was about the body beautiful, and
basically any talentless bodybuilder could get into wrassling, but
nowadays most of the guys breaking in have legit athletic backgrounds,
they had Greco-Roman, or Free-Style credentials at College level,
former NFLers, decent martial artists, Kurt Angle was a gold medal
winner at 220 lbs, Free-Style in Atlanta, Ken Shamrock was in the UFC
and tried out for the 1988 wrestling team, Steve Blackman as martial
arts credentials (I forget which art), Steven Regal is also a shooter,
and used to take anybody on when working carnivals in England, Don Frye
in NJPW also was in the UFC, as was Brian Johnston, as was David "Tank"
Abbott, The Steiners had decent amateur credentials in Michigan, Bret
Hart was a decent amateur wrestler, Owen Hart was even better, Steve
Williams was supposed to have been one of the great ones back in the
early 80’s I believe he was second only to Bruce Baumgartner, Gary
Albright also had amateur experience, Bart Gunn competed in tough man
contests, Meng was a former sumo, I bet Chris Benoit could be a very
good shooter if he wanted too, Perry Saturn, and Bill Goldberg both
wanted to wrestle shoots for a shoot promotion (I forget which), but
Bischoff wouldn’t allow it, Peter Senerchia has a judo background, I
believe Steve Austin also is a black belt in Judo, Chris Adams brother
represented the UK in Judo in 1984 (not sure about this).
Kenta Kobashi from AJPW has experience in rugby, and Karate, Toshiaki
Kawada was a good Greco Roman in high school, Jun Akiyama was an
alternate in Barcelona at 220 lbs, Ricky Choshu was in the Olympics
back in the 70’s I believe, Jumbo Tsuruta was in Munique in 72,
Masamichi Marufuji was also a top Japanese high school wrestler, Jushin
Liger was also a good amateur wrestler, Naoya Ogawa represent Japan in
both 1988, and 1992 Olympics in Judo, Manabu Nakanishi was the Japanese
representative in Barcelona at 220 lbs.
It’s a really long list, but most of these guys aren’t great shooters,
but with proper training, and time they could have been. Hadn’t Vince
told Bart not to use takedowns I think Brawl for All could have been
quite different.
You shoot in with either a single, or double leg takedown, you sweep
the legs forward thereby shifting the centre of gravity (Eric Esh’s
ass) backwards, making him fall on he’s back, after that with he’s big
gloves on, he’s like a fish out of water, you shoot in, and either
pound him from the guard with elbows, or personally I would go for an
ankle lock, and make him tap out VERY easily.
Mind you, you can defend yourself from takedowns if you know how to
throw knees, or kicks but since Boxers only use their fists, they are
sitting ducks for wrestlers, it's all about styles, you don't box a
boxer, and you don't wrestle a wrestler, you have to bring the proper
style to the dance, and wrestlers eat up Boxers fro breakfeast.
Once again I enjoy sharing what I know, but it would be nice if some
people on RSB wore not so arrogant as to think they know it all by
calling others stupid.
Any questions?
Nigel Matthews
Tyler Durden
Andre
John Carlo
hehehe
Frank Benn (aka FB)
> Mind you, you can defend yourself from takedowns if you know how to
> throw knees, or kicks but since Boxers only use their fists, they are
> sitting ducks for wrestlers, it's all about styles, you don't box a
> boxer, and you don't wrestle a wrestler
Actually, you *must* wrestle a wrestler if you're going to remain on your
feet. In the case of being taken down, you have to know how to sprawl a
single or double, squared hips and ride or single sprawl, whizzer and
quarter nelson to stop the single leg follow-up, cross face with head
outside, etc.
Throwing knees and kicks is a recipe for going to the ground.
John Carlo
BoxingSHK
allowing takedowns would have made that much of a difference in their fight.
nigelm...@my-deja.com
Really, so if I duck beneath your punches, and shoot in on your legs
from a crouched position how exactly are you either going to hit me, or
get proper leverage on your punches when firing downwards?
Mind you, Bart Gunn is/was a bum.
Nigel Matthews
nigelm...@my-deja.com
"Frank Benn (aka FB)" <spa...@NOSPAMINTEGRATEDARTShotmail.com> wrote:
> nigelm...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Mind you, you can defend yourself from takedowns if you know how to
> > throw knees, or kicks but since Boxers only use their fists, they
are
> > sitting ducks for wrestlers, it's all about styles, you don't box a
> > boxer, and you don't wrestle a wrestler
>
> Actually, you *must* wrestle a wrestler if you're going to remain on
your
> feet.
It' so dangerous to generalise like that isn't it, if only it was so
simple. Actually I was speaking for myself personaly, I would never
play to my opponent's strengths, but rather would lure him into the
fighting style that suits my phisical tools.
In the case of being taken down, you have to know how to sprawl a
> single or double, squared hips and ride or single sprawl, whizzer and
> quarter nelson to stop the single leg follow-up, cross face with head
> outside, etc.
>
Absolutely, you know your shit, and I agree with you, but most fighters
are too arrogant to wish to learn outside their discipline, and most
times the fact that they don't understand their opponents style means
they can't aticipate what they'll do next, I don't feel there's one all
mighty style, and I'm a big believer in cross training.
> Throwing knees and kicks is a recipe for going to the ground.
>
If a guy was shooting in on my leg face first, I'd definitely welcome
he's jaw with a nice knee, personally speaking I agree with you that
throwing kicks anywhere above the legs is stupid, and your begging to
be taken down, I believe in using kicks to the legs only, to slow my
opponent down, but kick to the torso, or head have always struck me as
being foolish, and Hollywoodesque. I've NEVER had a problem with taking
a kick to the torso, and 90% of those times I've grabbed the fool's leg
after he's done so, and proced to sweep the other leg, and take he's
ass down.
With the exception of Pete Williams VS. Mark Coleman how many times
have kicks to the head payed off in NHB? Leave the kicking shit to Jean
Claude Van Damme, or the Rockettes.
There's many misconceptions about what martial arts work, and don't
work, and it seems to me that RSB is still pretty much in the dark.
I've lost count of all the Taekwondo tough guys that I've taken down,
and groudn n' pounded into submission on the floors of Pool halls.
Still I feel most NHB'ers could actually learn to throw a decent punch
(jab), it's never failed to amase me how Rickson Gracie stands right in
front of you with he's guard WIDE open yet not one fool he's faced knew
how to throw a decent straight punch to such a clear opening.
Please to meet ya Frank, you know your shit, and it's a pleasure to
talk with somebody like you. Any experience in amateur grapling?
LPHamel
>Apologies in advance to those who object to ``junking up'' a boxing newsgroup
>with wrestling stuff.
>Help me out: What's the difference between a ``hooker'' and a ``shooter''?
>Where does Mr. Saito fit in?
Thanks for your response to my other questions. Still, I am curious as to what
is the difference between a hooker and a shooter?
The Mr. Saito to which I refer is the one who used to wrestle with Mr. Fuigi in
the WWF; the one arrested with Ken Patera in the McDonald's incident.
badmother...@my-deja.com
Yeah, Patera had a bad case of Roid rage that night, I hear Jimmy Snuka
had some as well, and maybe that's why he killed he's girlfriend.
Legend has it that Saito, and Patera sent half the town's police force
straight to the hospital, I seem to remember reading in "The Wrestling
Observer" newsletter that one of the cops was a woman, and she got beat
up real bad.
To the best of my knowledge Saito MIGHT have represented Japan in the
Olympics in some form of either Wrestling or Judo, but don't quote me
on that. I'm only 24 years old, and I wasn't a fan back in the early
80's so I'm not the best guy to ask, but I suspect there's folks here
who might know the answer such as poster Krazy K, or Bob Sheehy.
As for the difference between hooker, and shooter, well Lou Thez last
held the NWA strap in the late 60's so he's REALLY before my time, I
ASSUME a hooker is basically a Pro Wrestler (as in fake) that can be a
shooter if the situation requires him to be.
In the old days when the wrestlers wore touring in carnivals, there was
always a tough guy in every town who came to the matches and started
some shit by saying wrestling was fake, so the promotors needed to have
a Pro Wrestler that could do a shoot, and those guys wore
called "hookers" basically they had a shoot between the local idiot and
the hooker, and Thez would shoot on the fool, strech him, and make him
tap out.
Current WWF pro wrestler Steven Regal (real name Darrin Matthews, 31
years old) used to wrestle in Carnivals in the U.K., and he was a
hooker as well, Regal's a real tough guy, he's been hooking since he
was a really young in the UK wrestling circuit.
I presume basically hooker is what they called shooters in the old
days, ask Krazy K I bet he knows this better than me. I haven't heard
the hooker expression used by anyone but old timers.
Maybe you should buy Lou's book "Hooker", I hear it's very good.
I suggest you go over to RSPW moderated, and ask about Masa Saito's
amateur background, I'm pretty sure somebody there knows it very well,
those guys can be kind of smug, but few know their insider workings of
Pro Wrestling as good as them. And I assure you they take their
wrestling as serious as RSB takes their Boxing
Good luck
Scotty Steiner
Frank Benn (aka FB)
>
> Please to meet ya Frank, you know your shit, and it's a pleasure to
> talk with somebody like you.
> Any experience in amateur grapling?
>
I've trained in wrestling and Judo since 1980 and 1981, respectively. BJJ
since the late 1980's.
I also teach boxing and kickboxing as a martial art, here in Austin, Texas.
BoxingSHK
stand them back up. And I don't see how someone could think, even if Gunn took
down Bean however many times, that when they stood up, Gunn wouldn't eventually
have gotten dropped. If they didn't stand them back up, then Gunn would've had
a much greater advantage.
YENDOR3
a much greater advantage.>>
Tyson.
YENDOR3
class wrestlers who have cross trained.A pure wrestler is not going to beat a
boxer as easy as you guys think.In alot (All that I can think)of the
boxer-wrestler matches the boxers wore gloves which limited any defense at
all.I think a submission fighter would do better against a boxer than a
wrestler because they can finish better.
KrAzY k
John Carlo
challanged jack dempsy and dempsey didnt want anything to do with
strangler
years later at a awards cermony for lewis dempsy gave a speech and said
he didnt fight strangler because he would of never had a
chance------dempsey was a bare knuckeler and bar brawling boxer if he
didnt think he had a chance the cup cakes running around nowadyas would
get destroyed
YENDOR3
taught to win in every position for in ANY position there is a possible
hook. There aren't any 'active' pro wrestlers today that know how to
hook. >>
It's not dying.It is better than ever.All these guys fight in MMa now.