SONNY LISTON VS JOE FRAZIER WHO WINS?
lowes
emulated Liston's--in fact Liston was Foreman's idol. Liston possessed an
awesome jab, was arguably the hardest puncher of the time, and as PMAD
points out, Joe only knew one way to fight. Frazier had hoped to avenge the
loss later in his career but was again CRUSHED by big George. At least he
lasted a few rounds longer in the second match...Liston by early KO
Robert Pickett <fen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<766ovv$k...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
> Why??? Jo had a pretty good record I'd say.
>
Ivan Weiss
> Frazier was BLOWN OUT by George Foreman at a time when Foreman's style
> emulated Liston's--in fact Liston was Foreman's idol. Liston possessed an
> awesome jab, was arguably the hardest puncher of the time, and as PMAD
> points out, Joe only knew one way to fight. Frazier had hoped to avenge the
> loss later in his career but was again CRUSHED by big George. At least he
> lasted a few rounds longer in the second match...Liston by early KO
No disrespect intended, but that is nonsense. Foreman was *way* stronger
than Liston and much heavier.
Ivan Weiss CORPORATION, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual
Vashon WA profit without individual responsibility
-- Ambrose Bierce: "The Devil's Dictionary"
PM...@mailexcite.com
I find myself going back and forth on
this, but if I had to chose I think
Liston would win by rd 5. Joe would
come out the only way he knows how
and get himself knocked out.
What do you folks think?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Robert Pickett
--
We obviously need to bridge the gap between
your perception of reality and mine.
Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Poor imitation just
makes you look like a hack.
PM...@MAILEXCITE.com wrote in message <766o27$fmi$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
EZRA MICHAEL L
: I find myself going back and forth on
: this, but if I had to chose I think
: Liston would win by rd 5. Joe would
: come out the only way he knows how
: and get himself knocked out.
: What do you folks think?
I would ask the all-important question: When is this fight taking
place? Is it a mythical contest between a the 1959 Liston and
the 1970 Joe Frazier? Or would it be a bout in, say, 1968? In
the late 60s, the prime Frazier probably beats the faded Liston.
If Liston could land so many shots against Henry Clark and
Leotis Martin and Chuck Wepner and still not put them away, then
it's doubtful that Frazier would have cracked. However, if
they battled in their mythological primes, I agree with your
estimation of things. It's difficult to chase and pressure
a puncher like Liston without eating something in return.
And I don't know if any fighters really could eat what the
prime Liston could cook up. If the fighters fought in 1967,
with Frazier on the way up and Liston on the way down, well,
that'd be tough to call.......
Mike
Loveboxing
quickly.
Russ
d...@cheetah.net
Actually, Liston would have
to KO Foreman in 30 seconds.
In my most humble opinion, he
would have to do that trick
because George Foreman would've
splashed that old ugly bear all
over the ring.
DCI
Wbsmms
block Smokin' Joe's left hook. Also, I don't think Liston was as strong as
Foreman. Let's face it -- George is a freak of nature. Nobody else slammed
Joe around like that. Liston-Frazier would be a good fight, but I wouldn't
have bet against Joe.
lowes
power in either hand and was similar in weight--give or take a few
pounds--throughout his career to that of Foreman during his "first" career.
Ivan Weiss <iv...@blaze.accessone.com> wrote
lowes
many actually saw Liston in action during his peak?
Wbsmms
KFitzGerald
Ivan Weiss <iv...@blaze.accessone.com> wrote:
> On 27 Dec 1998, lowes wrote:
>
> > Frazier was BLOWN OUT by George Foreman at a time when Foreman's style
> > emulated Liston's--in fact Liston was Foreman's idol. Liston possessed an
> > awesome jab, was arguably the hardest puncher of the time, and as PMAD
> > points out, Joe only knew one way to fight. Frazier had hoped to avenge the
> > loss later in his career but was again CRUSHED by big George. At least he
> > lasted a few rounds longer in the second match...Liston by early KO
>
> No disrespect intended, but that is nonsense. Foreman was *way* stronger
> than Liston and much heavier.
Liston had a longer reach than George and he was a better boxer, too.
George's skills were crude, but Liston had a very good jab, for instance.
KF
AKIRA AXE
1959-1963. His run included wins over Cleveland Williams,Zora Folley, Nino
Valdez,Mike DeJohn, and Eddie Machen. All fighters that Cus D'Amato wouldnot
put Patterson in with!!! Then when Patterson did finally fight Liston he was
koed in the 1st!! The rematch the produced the same result!! Now Frazier had a
similar run between the years 1967-1971. Beating Mathis,Quarry,Ellis,Foster,
and then the great Ali. Unfortunately for Joe he was never the same after
beating Ali in that war in 1971. Although he rightfully got the decision he
took an awful pounding. His small build for heavyweight simply couldnot take
that much abuse and it showed in subsequent fights. So in their primes Liston
vs Frazier?? Well I have to go with a prime Joe being able to withstand the jab
of Sonny and outlasting him with a ko in the 6th round. To get you Tyson fans
going on here. Both of these guys ko an unproven Tyson of the 80's who never
beat near the competition that Liston or Frazier did!!!
EZRA MICHAEL L
: Check the back issues of Ring magazine...Liston had one punch knock out
: power in either hand and was similar in weight--give or take a few
: pounds--throughout his career to that of Foreman during his "first" career.
I think that the idea of Liston having one-punch KO power at his peak,
much less throughout his whole career, is fantasy. Take a look at a
tape of Liston vs. Henry Clark, Chuck Wepner, or Billy Joiner. He
beats the snot out of these guys; hits them with everything in the
book. They end the bouts on their feet. No disrespect towards Liston
intended, he's one of my favorites. However, he was not a one-punch
KO artist throughout his career. Even at his peak, even in the case
of first round KOs, like those against Patterson, Bethea, or Harris,
it's a series of punches that destroy the opposition.
Mike Ezra
Ivan Weiss
> Check the back issues of Ring magazine...Liston had one punch knock out
> power in either hand and was similar in weight--give or take a few
> pounds--throughout his career to that of Foreman during his "first" career.
>
> Ivan Weiss <iv...@blaze.accessone.com> wrote
> > No disrespect intended, but that is nonsense. Foreman was *way* stronger
> > than Liston and much heavier.
I don't have to check the back issues of anything, son. I was there.
Liston was a classic puncher. Foreman used his forearms like clubs to
establish his punching distance. Liston's style would have permitted
Frazier to get inside on him. Foreman's style didn't permit this.
I am not saying there was any difference in punching power between Liston
and Foreman. Probably there wasn't. I'm not saying Foreman was a better
boxer than Liston. He wasn't. I'm not saying I think Frazier would have
beaten Liston. It would have been one hell of a rumble, and Joe would
have caused a *lot* of problems for Liston.
I *am* saying Foreman's style was a lot worse for Frazier than Liston's
would have been. A major component of Foreman's style was to keep his
opponents away from him. Liston didn't concentrate on this as much,
because he was a devastating short puncher, despite his reach in inches.
Faced with Foreman's style in the ring, Frazier couldn't deal with it.
Styles make fights.
LBelknap
> this, but if I had to chose I think
> Liston would win by rd 5. Joe would
> come out the only way he knows how
> and get himself knocked out.
>
> What do you folks think?
>
>
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
My thought would be that Liston-Frazier would be very similar to Foreman-
Frazier. You know Frazier is going to fight the only way he knew how, straight
ahead, take it to the other man. And Foreman and Liston had similar assets.
Both had a strong left jab, both had power in either hand, both were big men
and not very mobile. I'd think the result of the
Liston -Frazier fight would be a knockout for Liston just as it was a knockout
for Foreman. No disrespect to Frazier as I thought he was a great warrior but
his style would have hurt him in these matchups. Jack B
Robert Pickett
One of the great things about boxing is that once(and this is very
important) the promoters have set up the fight then it is one of the purest
displays of someones character. Joe Frazier may or may not have won that
fight. But nobody would argue that he would be in there to win and if he
didn't then life goes on. That's the true mark of a champion. Ali is
almost always held up as the greatest and he wasn't undefeated. The real
travesty is when to politicos in boxing prevent fights like this for no
other than personal reasons.
lowes
Ivan Weiss <iv...@blaze.accessone.com> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.96.98122...@blaze.accessone.com>...
> On 28 Dec 1998, lowes wrote:
>
> > Check the back issues of Ring magazine...Liston had one punch knock out
> > power in either hand and was similar in weight--give or take a few
> > pounds--throughout his career to that of Foreman during his "first"
career.
> >
del...@mindspring.com
fight, Lyle, who was a little bigger than Sonny almost knocked George out. I
know that styles make a fight, but Lyle & Sonny were both tough bangers...If
anything Sonny was a better boxer with a better jab. Sonny didn't have a
whole lot of problem with the big hitters of his time...It was the boxers
(Ali, Machen) that gave him problems. Then again, the guys Sonny fought
didn't bang like George.
In article <3688233...@news1.cheetah.net>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
del...@mindspring.com
out but when you put heavy punchers in with "catchers" and Smokin Joe
certainly caught them, the catcher usually gets knocked out.
In article <768q1f$vf1$1...@news.cc.ukans.edu>,
mike...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (EZRA MICHAEL L) wrote:
> lowes (lo...@ncia.net) wrote:
> : Check the back issues of Ring magazine...Liston had one punch knock out
> : power in either hand and was similar in weight--give or take a few
> : pounds--throughout his career to that of Foreman during his "first" career.
>
> I think that the idea of Liston having one-punch KO power at his peak,
> much less throughout his whole career, is fantasy. Take a look at a
> tape of Liston vs. Henry Clark, Chuck Wepner, or Billy Joiner. He
> beats the snot out of these guys; hits them with everything in the
> book. They end the bouts on their feet. No disrespect towards Liston
> intended, he's one of my favorites. However, he was not a one-punch
> KO artist throughout his career. Even at his peak, even in the case
> of first round KOs, like those against Patterson, Bethea, or Harris,
> it's a series of punches that destroy the opposition.
>
> Mike Ezra
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
del...@mindspring.com
his prime was 215-220? That's not much of a difference.
I agree that George was a harder hitter, Sonny was more disciplined. I think
the size factor applys more to Frazier...If memory serves he was 185-190 in
his prime. I think Sonny would jab, throw bombs, and then be able to hold Joe
just like the bigger heavyweights held on to Tyson.
>
> No disrespect intended, but that is nonsense. Foreman was *way* stronger
> than Liston and much heavier.
>
> Ivan Weiss CORPORATION, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual
> Vashon WA profit without individual responsibility
> -- Ambrose Bierce: "The Devil's Dictionary"
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Boyslfe
frazier--
and think that liston takes out frazier early.
sonny was no george foreman.
patterson was no joe frazier.
i think the deciding factor is this-----
even in his 2 ko losses to george- joe frazier never lost a fight on his
back,let alone quit on his stool!
Mike Haught
words:
>Sonny was around 206-208 when he fought Floyd and 6' 1". I think George in
>his prime was 215-220? That's not much of a difference.
>
>I agree that George was a harder hitter, Sonny was more disciplined. I think
>the size factor applys more to Frazier...If memory serves he was 185-190 in
>his prime. I think Sonny would jab, throw bombs, and then be able to hold Joe
>just like the bigger heavyweights held on to Tyson.
>
I think you'll find that Joe was more like 200-205 lbs. in his prime.
-mwh
del...@mindspring.com
In article <19990101165337...@ng143.aol.com>,
boy...@aol.com (Boyslfe) wrote:
> i think people look at sonny's kos vs floyd patterson & george's kos vs joe
> frazier--
> and think that liston takes out frazier early.
> sonny was no george foreman.
Yes & no. George was bigger & probably stronger & a heavier hitter. However,
if memory serves, Sonny:
-was a national amateur champ (I think AAU) Destroyed a bunch of guys that
were favored to beat him.
-was the toughest guy in a couple of prisons
-knocked out all of the heavy hitters at that time.
I know amateur records, prison fights, & knocking out supposed tough guys
from the late 50's early 60's doesn't make you a George Foreman. It does mean
though that Sonny was used kicking butt in a lot of tough situations where he
wasn't the favorite and that Sonny could deal with a lot of heat.
> patterson was no joe frazier.
I agree. Patterson (nice guy) was one of the weakest champs of all time. Joe
F. maybe one of the top ten HW's.
> i think the deciding factor is this-----
> even in his 2 ko losses to george- joe frazier never lost a fight on his
> back,let alone quit on his stool!
I think the deciding factors are:
Usually when a swarming, wear you down, catch a lot of head shots going in
guy fights a bigger guy with big bombs, if the bomber can take a punch he
usually lands enough to knock out the swarmer. Same model as Norton (swarmer)
Shavers (bomber).
Sonny had a great jab and Frazier usually ate punches in the first couple of
rounds before he warmed up & started smokin. I think that Joe would eat a lot
of jabs & other heavy punches while he warmed up...this would be fatal.
Even in the last couple of years of Sonny's life (when he was probably over
40 & out of shape), a lot of the top 5-10 HW's in the world didn't want to
fight him.
Just my 2 cents..
Bob Sheehy
mid-way figure between Frazier's two nemeses, Foreman and Ali. More
mobile and a far superior boxer to young George, he hit much harder than
Muhammad. Sonny's jab was long and lethal, perhaps the deadliest in the
annals of the sport.
I see a Liston-Frazier fight as being a drawn out battle of attrition,
with Smokin' Joe doing early damage, but gradually breaking down from
the repeated consumption of Sonny's jabs and hooks. I would pick Liston
by late round stoppage in a "Thrilla in Manila" type of struggle.
Incidentally, most of the criticism of Liston in this thread cites his
performances post-Ali, when he was a dispirited, ringworn and possibly
drug addicted shell of his former self. This is like trying to assess
Frazier's talents based on his performance in that airplane versus Jumbo
Cummings.
tpon...@gmail.com
Auric Hellman
> Nope,Liston at 6'1” ,218 lbs. Was at least as strong as foreman, and was a better boxer. The Ali Liston fought was far faster than the one Frazier met. Liston also had more reach and as much power as Foreman.George sparred with Liston and sayß Liston was the only man that forced him to back up in the ring.
Dr. Auric D. Hellman
adhe...@volcanomail.com