Muhammed Ali -- When should he have retired? (Long Post, but if you have the time please read it)
C. Johnson
I would say no. Ali was an older fighter, but his fight with Foreman
showed Ali was no way near pass his prime yet. He did outsmart Foreman, but
also the guy was very offensive in the early rounds and the rope-a-dope was
more of a mind game than a defensive tatic in that fight. From what I know
from my Ali history, Ali had just won back a title he never truly lost in
the ring, and there was "no way in h*ll" he was going to just retire after
winning it back. I would agree with that assessment.
***
After his fight with Joe Frazier (October 1, 1975).
It could be speculated that if a fighter could convince himself that it
should end, this should have been the fight. Ali admitted at the time that
he couldn't do much more of this. Frazier would attempt a comeback against
George Foreman. Foreman wasn't the Foreman that burried Frazier in 1973, but
neither was Frazier the same man Foreman burried -- he was weaker.
Ali did fights in 1975 that some considered dismal. While he went 15
rounds with Chuck Wepner, I didn't see a Ali past his prime. Only an Ali
that didn't take a certain Phili fighter serious enough. After Ali was
tripped by Wepner in that so-called knockdown, Ali really got p*ssed and
gave him a beating. I'm not sure if it was Wepner being a tough guy or Ali
being weak. Probably both.
The Ron Lyle fight was basically dismal until the last three rounds
where Ali showed he still had it.
So if it was me, I would say 1975 would have been perfect after Frazier.
***
After his fight with Kenny Norton (Sept. 28, 1976).
Except for losing to Norton in 1973, was this match really neccessary?
It seemed more like a money deal for Ali, than a fight to prove anything.
His only credits in 1976 was knocking out a Frenchman and a British dude. He
fought another Phili fighter in Jimmy Young who really stunk up the place,
but Ali basically didn't fight him until the 11 round. It was hard to call
the fight for Ali because the fight was so damn boring. Young kept on doing
his body shot to Ali's belt. The only time the fight seemed interesting was
when Ali danced and Young actually counter punched him. I guess because Ali
got the decision against Young, it didn't matter that Young (while not good)
actually did something to Ali that would have never happened in his prime.
Sure Ali won, but only because in the old days you really had to beat the
champion and Young failed to do that.
The summer of 1976, Ali spent time on becoming a professional wrestler.
He did worked matches and the org. plan for Inoki was a worked match where
Inoki pins Ali. Ali "refused to job" to the Japanese wrestler, and the match
became a quasi-shoot, quasi-joke fight. Ali did, however, give Inoki as many
kicks as Inoki gave Ali. In fact, I actually liked that farce (don't ask me
why).
Then came Norton. Ali bragged as usual and claimed he knock him out in 5
rounds. I have seen a version of the fight that only contains 13 rounds
(rounds 3 and 5 are missing) -- I know from the footage I saw -- Norton
seemed to actually win the fight from what I saw one time I tried to judge
it. To me Norton could have easily been screwed at Yankee Stadium.
Again, I think Ali should have retired before this -- but again if he
had retired in 1976 -- I would have said the same thing. Perfect timing.
***
After his bout with Ernie Shavers (September 1977).
I think it was too late by this point. Ali was still not affected by
Parkinson's or full time brain damage or whatever, but Ali admitted he hated
to train and was ready to retire. This was, however, in Jan 1977. By the end
of 1977, Ali wanted to keep on fighting and fighting easier fighters because
it was good money and good business.
The first fight of 1977 (May) was against Alfredo Evanglista, not even a
ranked contender. Ali showed sparks of his old self, but at the same time
showed signs of self-parody. The same tricks he did with Quarry in 1972
wasn't playing well with Howard Cosell who called the bout an
"embarassment," although he clearly saw Ali win the fight. I almost had to
agree with him. The fight was not a bad one and Ali clearly did win, but
when you actually decision Alfredo Evanglista -- it might be time to look
for a career change. Cosell gave Evanglista about 3 rounds (he said this
during round 12) and his co-announcer gave him 4. I gave him about 6 rounds,
but some were hard to call because neither guy did anything in some rounds.
The Ernie Shaves bout was different. Ali seemed to put more effort into
this fight, and Shavers was an old dog (not top contender, but he was well
known) and really gave Ali a beating. To me, I thought Shavers won the
fight. Some rounds were just too close, as Ali really didn't too much in the
early rounds. Shaver's almost knocked Ali down in Round 14 (Ali did slip,
but I almost saw a knockdown seconds before the slip). Either way, the slip
alone looked embarassing! Ali capture some of his youth in the 15 round and
won it hands down. Still, Ali's victory was a blessing. To me, Shavers came
very close to defeating Ali. At the same time, NYC judges felt Shavers had
not beaten the champion. It was a close fight, and I won't say Ali didn't
pull it off -- but if he did -- I didn't see it the two times I watched this
fight. Ali was past his prime and should have been gone. The problem was
when Ali didn't lose, he kept wanting to continue.
***
Against Leon Spinks (Sept. 1978).
In 1978, Ali decided that Ken Norton did deserve a rematch, but he was
going to fight a few tune-up fights against "easy" fighters. Ferdie Pacheko
quit the Ali circus after the Shaver's fight, but was a ring announcer for
the fight with Spinks in Feb. 1978 in Vegas. An out of shape Ali did very
bad against him. I think Ali had more will in the later rounds than in his
fight with Evanglista, but it was too late. He clearly lost that fight.
The second fight to me was boring. Then again, my version is very snowy
and has two rounds missing. I have only watched highlights of the second
Spinks fight and all I can say is Ali beat a man that he should have never
lost too. I will always consider him the only three time champion (Holyfield
is a joke). It still was a incredable feat for a guy who appeared washed up
to defeat a guy who allowed success to get to his head.
Ali decided to hold on to the title for a few months, but had no real
desire to fight agan. I doubt he could -- that was his last great fight and
it wasn't that good.
****
Against Larry Holmes (Oct. 2, 1980).
This fight should have never happened. Not under Smith, or King, or
anybody else for that matter. Ali was visablily different, and watch the
pre-fight before round one -- Ali was out of it. He looked too skinny
(because of the Thyroid medicine) and didn't do anything. The fight only
lasted 11 round because Holmes went easy on Ali and if you look at it --
that was pretty much a beating in itself.
I won't say anything. This should have never happened. However, it
didn't convince Ali to quit.
***
Against Trevor Berbick (Dec. 12, 1981).
Who was Berbick. He got lucky for 15 rounds with Holmes. In 1977, Ali
would have gotten a close decision over this bum. In late 1960s, Ali would
have killed this bum. And in 1981, an Ali with nothing left came close (in
my opinion) to defeating Berbick. However, the Judges gave Berbick a
sweeping victory over Ali. Probably a good idea, because Ali really had
nothing left. He fought like an old George Foreman -- but with 1/4 of the
power. This fight was the saddest of them all, but it was also amazing that
a nothing left Ali was somewhat better than Berbick in the early rounds. The
sloppy Berbick can be considered lucky that he defeated a legened at the end
of his career, because it would never had happened any other year.
Tell you how good Berbick was. The real Mike Tyson knocked him out in
two rounds. Today, Mike would probably eat the 43 year old for lunch or
something.....
My pick: The end of 1976, because Ali would have been remembered even if he
didn't win the title three times.
Ryan Wissow
He shouldve retired after the third Frazier bout.
Ryan Wissow
ryanki...@webtv.net
http://members.tripod.com/~kid_smooth/
Bobby Bearden
without the fans seeing him beaten by the likes of Spinks (I think he had 7
pro fights) or going the distance with much lesser fighters like Jimmy Young
and Evangelista. After that, only the Norton fight, where Ali fought with a
broken jaw, lent anything to his legend.
Ryan Wissow <ryanki...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:509-39D...@storefull-144.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Mike Haught
"Bobby Bearden" <th...@digitalexp.com> wrote:
> After the third Frazier fight would have cemented his place in history
> without the fans seeing him beaten by the likes of Spinks (I think he
had 7
> pro fights) or going the distance with much lesser fighters like
Jimmy Young
> and Evangelista. After that, only the Norton fight, where Ali fought
with a
> broken jaw, lent anything to his legend.
>
1973.
I agree with you and Ryan that the Ali/Frazier III fight would have
been the appropriate swan song for his career. Unfortunately, not very
many fighters exit the game in such a way as to enhance their health
and historical status.
-mwh
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bobby Bearden
Mike Haught <mwha...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8rkq09$bqv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> Point of correction: Norton broke Ali's jaw in their first fight in
> 1973.
>
> I agree with you and Ryan that the Ali/Frazier III fight would have
> been the appropriate swan song for his career. Unfortunately, not very
> many fighters exit the game in such a way as to enhance their health
> and historical status.
>
> -mwh
>
It does appear I had the broken jaw in the wrong Norton fight ... OR I knew
about another incident of Ali's jaw being broken by Norton that was kept
super secret (even from Ali and Norton). In the interest of trying to sound
like a real boxing expert, I'm going to claim the latter explanation. :-)
Mike Haught
The fight to which you are referring was in Ali/Norton IV. ;-)
-mwh
doggyboy2020
If health concerned, he should have retired IMO after the Foreman fight.
That was a monumental achievement in beating previously undefeated
monster Foreman. Ali had already beat Patterson, Liston, Foreman, and
avenged his losses to Frazier and Norton.
But retiring after Ali-Frazier III would've been better for Ali's status
as an all time greatest, but the conditions for that fight were horrible
and Ali's speech after that fight was much slower and barely audible;
that was the beginning of his Parkinsons yet nobody noticed it.
--
-doggyboy ;>
Pat
In article <81fD5.21204$TP6.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"C. Johnson" <gna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Stdann
Stdann
>been the appropriate swan song for his career. Unfortunately, not very
>many fighters exit the game in such a way as to enhance their health
>and historical status.
>
> -mwh
Not really -- Dempsey's last fight was the "Long Count"!
Mike Haught
std...@aol.com (Stdann) said:
IMO, for every Dempsey or Marciano, you have an Ali, Louis, SR
Robinson, etc. that would overwhelmingly support my contention.
-mwh
Alister Scott Ottesen
was never the same after this fight. Just look at his fights with Jimmy
Young and Ken Norton in 1976. Even then, it was very clear that he was not
the same fighter as he was prior to Frazier III. Hell, he didn't even
deserve to win those fights in most people's opinion.
The "Thrilla in Manilla" and his fights after that are, in my opinion, the
reason Ali started to suffer from Parkinson's at a so early age as he did.
Alister
WXAMERICA
"I think Ali should have retired after the third Frazier fight in 1975."
Good call. The "Thrilla" was one of the most engaging, brutal battles ever
fought. I recall Frazier saying that he hit Ali with shots that would have
felled the walls of Jericho. Yes, Muhammad was a great champion (as even Joe
admitted), but he took brutal punishment to the head, body, and to his
hydration system in that fight. Seeing the listless Ali matches after Manilla,
and then hearing his slurred speech, should only make us realize just how much
the man gave to the sport and to his fans.
Best Regards,
Larry Cosgrove