Could Ali have beaten Marciano ?
Mike
younger, and lasted a little longer in terms of his fight career.
Imagine a fight between Marciano and Ali. Lots of people always assume
that Rocky would have taken Ali because Rocky never lost.
But then again, Rocky never had to face an Ali.
What if these two fighters could have fought each other while they
were both in their primes ?
How do you see it going ?
Brian Davis
In article <7cfd37d2.0307...@posting.google.com>,
MrStr...@hotmail.com (Mike) writes:
>I've often wondered what mind have been if the Rock had been a little
>younger, and lasted a little longer in terms of his fight career.
>
Brian Davis
Riverdale, IL
PETE ROSE BELONGS IN THE HALL OF FAME!
BoxMuham
>In their primes, Ali would have Boxed Marciano's ears off.
Years after Ali's prime was over, Joe Louis said he thought that
Marciano would be too much for Ali.
It's hard to pick anyone against Muhammad Ali, but Marciano was one of
the few who'd have a chance against The Greatest.
You may disagree with me and Joe Louis. That's the way it goes.
BoxMuhammad
D. Flynn
spent a day sparring w/Ali and beat the shit out of him. Even Ali
loyalist Ferdie Pacheco couldn't believe how one-sided it was. A few
days later Lou Duva asked Ali if the Rock could still punch. "Are you
kidding?" he replied and lifted his shirt to reveal deep bruises on both
his sides.
joe
any confirmation on this story?
"D. Flynn" <GU...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24568-3F...@storefull-2312.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Larry Lee
or two. It was some movie they were filming... some guy wanted to create
some documentary or something or plug the moves into a computer to figure
out who won or something like that... anyway, Marciano apparently agreed
then spent some days running on the beach and getting in shape. I think the
fighting was only supposed to be semi-real. During the taped rounds, Ali
kept pissing off Marciano somehow, who backed Ali into a corner and hit him
hard in the body. Ali doubled over in agony, Marciano started cursing and
asking to make the fight real right then and there. Forgot how it ended,
and where the footage is, or if it's even real.
"joe" <du...@dudes-vile.com> wrote in message
news:IqKUa.17719$OM3....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Larry Lee
Following is an interesting account of the events surrounding the taping
of the Marciano vs. Ali closed-circuit TV "Superfight."
In 1969, Murry Woroner, a Miami promoter, approached Rocky and
Muhammad Ali with a proposition. He wanted to film a fight between
them, using a computer to decide the final outcome.
Ali had been stripped of his title and banned from boxing when he refused
to be drafted into the army in 1967. Marciano was 46 years old and sixty
pounds over his fighting weight. Each man had his motivations for agreeing
to the deal. Ali needed the money. Rocky had money, but he deeply missed
his glory days in the ring.
Before he could climb into a ring again, even for a simulated fight, Rocky
had
to get into some semblance of what he had been. He began running again,
working out in the gym, eating right; in truth, he trained as hard or harder
than any
fighter preparing for a real fight. The result was a loss of almost fifty
pounds. To
cover his balding head, he was fitted with a wig.
In "Marciano, Biography of a First Son", Everett Skehan said, "When Rocky
went
to the dingy gym on the North Side of Miami Beach he was thinking tough,
expecting
things to go smoothly but prepared for anything. He had been briefed, knew
that the
punches were to be pulled, and that it would not be a real fight. But Rocky
wouldn't
go into the ring that way. Even at forty-six, he had to feel that if
something went
wrong, if suddenly the punches became real, he would be ready to win."
Ali didn't train seriously for the filming, and actually looked less in
shape than the
much older Marciano.
The filming took place in a small gym on the North Side of Miami Beach. Only
about
20 people were allowed inside the gym during the filming, which was kept as
secret as
possible. Behind the fighters was a black backdrop and no crowd of cheering
spectators.
Though punches to the head were to be pulled, both men agreed body shots
were not a
problem. They filmed one minute rounds. Angelo Dundee was on hand as Ali's
trainer,
but Rocky had to use Mel Ziegler to play the role of Charlie Goldman, his
real trainer.
Charlie had passed away the year before. Ferdie Pacheco was the ring doctor.
Seventy one-minute segments were filmed, then spliced into three minute
rounds, including
seven possible endings. All the information about the two men, their fights
and results, was
fed into the computer. Supposedly, the computer would decide the winner
completely on
the basis of the data concerning the two men and their boxing careers. Ali
would tell
different versions of how the outcome was decided; he would say he choose
the ending,
he would say it was a biased decision made by a computer in Mississippi,
etc.
During the filming, Rocky and Ali became friends, spending hours in
conversation. Ali
would later write that he became closer to Rocky than any other white
fighter he ever knew.
Said Dundee of the affair: "Muhammad acquired a lot of respect for Rocky. He
said Rocky
was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked."
Stories came out of the sessions. Several claimed Rocky really hurt Ali with
body shots, so
that Muhammad climbed out of the ring and demanded extra money to continue.
He was
payed additional money. (Woroner himself said Ali took such a battering that
he refused to
continue until he was guaranteed an additional two thousand dollars.)
I've talked to the son of one observer who says Rocky doubled Ali up with a
body shot
after Ali kept jabbing the wig off Rocky's head. Dundee admitted to the wig
episode, but
never told of the hard body shot that it led to. Ferdie Pacheco, however,
the ring doctor
in the film, claims Ali was dropped by a real body shot. The undeniable fact
is, Rocky
entered the ring ready to make a real fight of it if need be. Even Dundee
said he had to
be calmed down after the wig incident.
Here's the wig story as I've heard it from two sources:
Ali was dancing around jabbing and threw a high jab which just clipped
Rocky's wig
and knocked it off his head. The filming was stopped while the wig was
refitted, amid
bemused smiles from several of the observers. Marciano was embarrassed and
angry.
He said, "He did that on purpose to make me look stupid. He doesn't have any
respect
for me at all." Rocky was assured it was an accident and the filming
resumed. However,
Ali again jabbed high and sent the wig flying. Rocky was really mad this
time, and
snarled, "You better not do that again!"
They began once more and immediatly Ali flicked the wig off Rocky's head.
Without
hesitation, Marciano dug a vicious body shot into Ali's mid-section,
doubling him over.
Pacheco said Muhammad actually dropped to the floor and was completely
helpless.
Quickly Rocky was separated from Ali and Dundee related how they had to take
a
break until Rocky's temper cooled off.
Marciano offered to turn it into a real fight then and there if Ali was
game. Only when
Ali apologized did the Rock get over his anger. Observers at the filming
have said Ali's
attitude was different from that point on, as it was obvious Marciano had
come to fight
if need be rather than be disrespected.
Alan Fisher
"Larry Lee" <yu...@yucky.com> wrote in message
news:MhLUa.6060$cM6....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
> Here's the post, I just found it.
>
> Following is an interesting account of the events surrounding the taping
> of the Marciano vs. Ali closed-circuit TV "Superfight."
>
> In 1969, Murry Woroner, a Miami promoter, approached Rocky and
> Muhammad Ali with a proposition. He wanted to film a fight between
> them, using a computer to decide the final outcome.
>
Just to say I do remember seeing clips of this 'computer fight' - though I
was a child at the time and my memories aren't clear. I'd have been ten
years old-ish, probably less : I was 8 in 1969, but we wouldn't necessarily
have seen the thing when it was 'new'.
All I recall are a few grainy black-and-white clips (tho that may have been
the TV we had back then), and my Dad tutting about how clumsy the
'experiment' was.
At the time I was aware of Ali but had never heard of Marciano, so I was
dismayed at the idea of this superbeing losing, even in theory. So I asked
my Dad who would really have won, and his reply was along the lines of "You
can never tell until they actually climb into the ring, son"..........
AF
Paul Cassel
> "Larry Lee" <yu...@yucky.com> wrote in message
> news:MhLUa.6060$cM6....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
>> Here's the post, I just found it.
>>
Well, the computer fight was real. Here's a link:
http://www.antekprizering.com/alimarcianopc.html
The story sounds far fetched to me. There was some white resentment toward
Ali during that time which would have made for fertile grounds for such
story - assuming it wasn't true. I'm not saying it can't be. After all, by
1969 Ali had been spending his attention for a few years on legal battles
not ring ones. Yet a 46 y.o. Rock .. well, I just don't know.
-paul
Stephen Wilkinson
We'll never know 'cos it's in the past and can never happen Of course this
wont stop the world and his wife posting their two penneth on the subject.
NICHOLAS D.
-Nick
"Paul Cassel" <pcas...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:H3OUa.1076$Bg....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Robert Phillips
NICHOLAS D. wrote:
> Where is Bobby Bearden when you need him?
>
> -Nick
The story's not so hard to believe.
Read up on how Harry Houdini died.
Pie
Stanley Hammond
Marciano would take a while to catch Ali, but once he did, he would
murder the loudmouth! Take Joe Frazier, give him the stamina to be
fresh all 15 rounds, juice up his right hand (quite a bit), increase
Joe's overall punching power and remove his susceptability to facial
swelling, and you'll have Marciano. Imagine Ali taking on a Joe
Frazier who never tired, whose face never swelled up, and who had
wrecking balls at the end of BOTH arms!
As an aside, a balding, faded, 45-year-old Marciano doubled Ali over
with a single shot to the midsection in what was supposed to be a mock
sparring session. Prime Rocky would prove to be too much for Ali...
and that's an understatement!
Mike
MrStr...@hotmail.com (Mike) wrote in message news:<7cfd37d2.0307...@posting.google.com>...
Mike
like 5 months for a fight. Is that true ?
lars...@hotmail.com (Stanley Hammond) wrote in message news:<1e4325d.03072...@posting.google.com>...
Kip King
Ali was famous for always letting people pound on him in sparring. He
worked on defense in sparring.
Kip King
They filmed several endings and put one in of Marciano winning by KO.
SuperCalo
"Kip King" <wod...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:cbfe67b5.03072...@posting.google.com...
which is why he is now a retard
GreenDistantStar
"SuperCalo" <ca...@supercalo.com> wrote in message
news:bg4rq0$6sf$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> which is why he is now a retard
What's your excuse?
SuperCalo
"GreenDistantStar" <GreenDis...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:aGnVa.21137$OM3....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
are you still bitter about losing the rugby my friend?
GreenDistantStar
> are you still bitter about losing the rugby my friend?
Dance for me, puppet-boy.
And you do.
d...@cheetah.net
He sticks his cyber chin out and forgets to duck.
DCI
Dennis
>
> which is why he is now a retard
>
He has parkinsons but he is not retarded. He's still very intelligent.
SuperCalo
batman, you are the best baby
Ashland Wentworth Sturges
>
> > Dance for me, puppet-boy.
> >
> > And you do.
>
> batman, you are the best baby
Actually our friend is Fred Schneider from "The B-52'S"...he specialises
in a fighting form known as "The Fop's Fury".Limpest wrists to sashay
across a keyboard.
the Nay Sayer
If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
for fifteen rounds...
the Nay Sayer
The Lord Memnoch
>Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
>caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
>that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
>considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
>but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
>for fifteen rounds...
>
>
I agree, but I hold everyone to the same standard so you will get my favorite
line. I agree, but your logic is flawed. Case in point.
"If Bert Cooper could do that to Evander Holyfield, imagine what a faster, more
powerful Mike Tyson would do to him."
Evander kicked the shit out of Tyson.
"Duran beat Leonard and Leonard beat Hearns by slugging it out. Duran is a
better slugger than Tommy so he will make mince meat out of him."
Tommy handed the legend his first clean knockout.
The list goes on and on, but if you are going to judge by worse performances,
then we can have Willy Pep, beating Mike Tyson. There are so many things to
consider when basing who you think will win.
Age and conditioning is a major factor.
Level of recent competition.
Styles.
Mental makeup after a lose.
Bad habits, such as Duran following a huge win with an eating and partying
binge.
On paper, Lennox Lewis vs Hasim Rahman was a mismatch. Lennox did everything
better, but though I thought Lennox was the favorite, I am the only person that
I know that gave Rahman a chance due to the following factors.
The conditions surrounding the fight dictated that you get acclimated to the
height of where they were fighting. You need three weeks to learn how to
breathe in the mountains. Rahman got there a week early. Lewis got there with
two weeks notice after filming "Oceans Eleven" I still thought that Lewis was
going to win, but I told my friend, "Say what you might, but if this fight
lasts longer than five rounds, Rahman has a real chance of winning."
I was wrong and right, but I was wrong for the right reasons. Lewis did not
take the fight seriously.
To be objective, we need to take into consideration what would happen between
two fighters if they fought a best of ten series. Anyone can win on a one on
one confrontation at any given moment...
But, I will say, Ali would have whipped the hell out of Marciano, heh heh.
NICHOLAS D.
"the Nay Sayer" <Nay_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b0fce696.0307...@posting.google.com...
> If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
> Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
> caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
> that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
> considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
> but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
> for fifteen rounds...
>
>
> the Nay Sayer
The fight was suspect. Marciano complained about his eyes in the fight. Just
see what Rocky did to Walcott in the second fight they had if you want
something closer to reality. Now please reread the other persons post
comparing a far better swarmer then Frazier fighting Ali.
-Nick
Isaiah
> >If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
> >Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
> >caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
> >that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
> >considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
> >but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
> >for fifteen rounds...
> >
> >
>
> I agree, but I hold everyone to the same standard so you will get my favorite
> line. I agree, but your logic is flawed. Case in point.
>
> "If Bert Cooper could do that to Evander Holyfield, imagine what a faster, more
> powerful Mike Tyson would do to him."
> Evander kicked the shit out of Tyson.
>
> "Duran beat Leonard and Leonard beat Hearns by slugging it out. Duran is a
> better slugger than Tommy so he will make mince meat out of him."
> Tommy handed the legend his first clean knockout.
>
> The list goes on and on, but if you are going to judge by worse performances,
> then we can have Willy Pep, beating Mike Tyson.
<snip>
A lot of these dolts probably *do* think that Pep would've beaten
Tyson. After all, "size means dick," according to one of the head
dolts. Also, remember that Pep fought back in the '40s. Bob Compton's
uncle had some tough hiking trips at around that time and therefore
Willie Pep must have been tougher than anyone alive today. Combine
that with Tyson's known tendency to lose to anyone who remembered to
fight back against him, and you have a shutout victory for the Will o'
the Wisp.
-Isaiah
Robert Phillips
Isaiah wrote:
> A lot of these dolts probably *do* think that Pep would've beaten
> Tyson. After all, "size means dick," according to one of the head
> dolts. Also, remember that Pep fought back in the '40s. Bob Compton's
> uncle had some tough hiking trips at around that time and therefore
> Willie Pep must have been tougher than anyone alive today. Combine
> that with Tyson's known tendency to lose to anyone who remembered to
> fight back against him, and you have a shutout victory for the Will o'
> the Wisp.
> -Isaiah
LMAO! Thanks for the chuckles...
Pie
the Nay Sayer
> "the Nay Sayer" <Nay_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b0fce696.0307...@posting.google.com...
>
> > If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
> > Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
> > caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
> > that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
> > considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
> > but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
> > for fifteen rounds...
> >
> >
> > the Nay Sayer
>
> The fight was suspect.
Says who? Please, give us some evidence to support your assertion....
> Marciano complained about his eyes in the fight.
Probably because Walcott kept putting his fists in them...
> Just see what Rocky did to Walcott in the second fight they had if you want
> something closer to reality.
So that makes the first fight a mirage? I guess then that we can also
disregard Lewis-Rahman I or Patterson-Johansson I. Sorry, but ole'
man Walcott gave Marciano a *beating* for 12 1/2 rounds until that
right hand settled matters. That's REAL....
> Now please reread the other persons post
> comparing a far better swarmer then Frazier fighting Ali.
>
A *far* better swarmer than Frazier? Based on what? His record
against 'A' level opponents? His defense? Boxing ability? Please
explain...
the Nay Sayer
the Nay Sayer
> >Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
> >caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
> >that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
> >considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
> >but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
> >for fifteen rounds...
> >
> >
>
> I agree, but I hold everyone to the same standard so you will get my favorite
> line. I agree, but your logic is flawed. Case in point.
>
> "If Bert Cooper could do that to Evander Holyfield, imagine what a faster, more
> powerful Mike Tyson would do to him."
> Evander kicked the shit out of Tyson.
>
This is a bad example. Holyfield got up and subsequenlty kicked the
shit out of Cooper....
> "Duran beat Leonard and Leonard beat Hearns by slugging it out. Duran is a
> better slugger than Tommy so he will make mince meat out of him."
> Tommy handed the legend his first clean knockout.
>
This is a good example. A good example of how styles make fights.
However, I don't base my assertion that Ali would have beaten Marciano
soley on the observation of what happened in the first Walcott fight.
But it is a contributing factor and begs the question; How does a
so-called great HW champion let a 39 year ole man last 12.5 rounds?
> The list goes on and on, but if you are going to judge by worse performances,
> then we can have Willy Pep, beating Mike Tyson. There are so many things to
> consider when basing who you think will win.
>
Pep over Tyson? You're reaching....
> Age and conditioning is a major factor.
>
I'd give Marciano a slight edge in conditioning over Ali. Skin of
teeth slight..
> Level of recent competition.>
Here Ali has a HUGE edge over the Rock. Compared to Ali's, Marciano's
list of opponents looks like the membership of the Civil War Veterans
society...
> Styles.
>
Swarmers have been known to give boxers problems...
> Mental makeup after a loss.
>
This is the big question concerning the Rock....
> Bad habits, such as Duran following a huge win with an eating and partying
> binge.
>
<Snippage>
>
> To be objective, we need to take into consideration what would happen between
> two fighters if they fought a best of ten series. Anyone can win on a one on
> one confrontation at any given moment...
>
> But, I will say, Ali would have whipped the hell out of Marciano, heh heh.
Yep...
the Nay Sayer
Mike Haught
>
>A lot of these dolts probably *do* think that Pep would've beaten
>Tyson. After all, "size means dick," according to one of the head
>dolts. Also, remember that Pep fought back in the '40s. Bob Compton's
>uncle had some tough hiking trips at around that time and therefore
>Willie Pep must have been tougher than anyone alive today. Combine
>that with Tyson's known tendency to lose to anyone who remembered to
>fight back against him, and you have a shutout victory for the Will o'
>the Wisp.
>
con·text
1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage
and determines its meaning
2. The set of facts or circumstances that surround a situation or event; "the
historical context"
-mwh
Dennis
NICHOLAS D. wrote:
> "the Nay Sayer" <Nay_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b0fce696.0307...@posting.google.com...
>
>
>>If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
>>Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
>>caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
>>that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
>>considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
>>but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
>>for fifteen rounds...
>>
>>
Walcott was 37 not 39 and he didn;t give him a beating for 13 rounds. He
was knocked out in the 13th and it wasn't a haymaker, the punch was
about a foot long perfectly timed right cross which to me demonstrates
the speed and power the guy had. Walcott's age aside he was the
heavyweight champ when there was only one and was a match for any
heavyweight that ever lived.
Dennis
>
>>Marciano complained about his eyes in the fight.
>
>
>
> Probably because Walcott kept putting his fists in them...
>
>
>
It was from the ointment rocky's corner pun on the cut on top of his
head that he got from an accidental but earleier in the fight.
d...@cheetah.net
That punch, the short chopping right hand was
the "weapon of choice," not an accidental or
lucky wallop that put Walcott in dreamland and
draped on the ropes. Rocky Maricano called his
right shot "Susie Cue (sp)." That punch and his
left hook caused quite a few opponents to fall
short of finishing the scheduled rounds.
DCI
Dennis
Since the question is "could" Ali beat Marciano? Definitely. He could
beat anyone but then again Marciano probably could too that's why
they're great.
Dennis
>
>
> That punch, the short chopping right hand was
> the "weapon of choice," not an accidental or
> lucky wallop that put Walcott in dreamland and
> draped on the ropes. Rocky Maricano called his
> right shot "Susie Cue (sp)." That punch and his
> left hook caused quite a few opponents to fall
> short of finishing the scheduled rounds.
>
> DCI
All true but to listen to alot of people on the internet you'd think he
was always being beaten up until he landed a big wild lucky punch. And
the amazing thing is he did it 46 times in 49 fights.
NICHOLAS D.
> "NICHOLAS D." <ND...@OPTONLINEBULLSHIT.NET> wrote in message
news:<jhJVa.6496$W93.1...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> > "the Nay Sayer" <Nay_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:b0fce696.0307...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
> > > Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
> > > caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
> > > that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
> > > considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
> > > but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
> > > for fifteen rounds...
> > >
> > >
> > > the Nay Sayer
> >
> > The fight was suspect.
>
>
> Says who? Please, give us some evidence to support your assertion....
>
>
> > Marciano complained about his eyes in the fight.
>
>
> Probably because Walcott kept putting his fists in them...
Dennis answered this.
> > Just see what Rocky did to Walcott in the second fight they had if you
want
> > something closer to reality.
>
>
> So that makes the first fight a mirage? I guess then that we can also
> disregard Lewis-Rahman I or Patterson-Johansson I. Sorry, but ole'
> man Walcott gave Marciano a *beating* for 12 1/2 rounds until that
> right hand settled matters. That's REAL....
Pay attention. The fact that there was a substance in Marciano's eyes in the
first fight was a true factor. In the second fight without this foriegn
object in his eyes Marciano knocked out Walcott in the first round. So
henceforth yes I'd say we would have seen a different first fight. Maybe not
a 1st round ko because this was Rocky's first title shot and maybe he was a
little nervous, reserved, or precautious as one might expect. As far as your
poor example of an untrained Lewis who was the defending champ at the time I
have to laugh.
> > Now please reread the other persons post
> > comparing a far better swarmer then Frazier fighting Ali.
> >
> A *far* better swarmer than Frazier? Based on what? His record
> against 'A' level opponents? His defense? Boxing ability? Please
> explain...
>
> the Nay Sayer
You can not match level of opponents fairly from different eras. You must
see how well each performed in their time with what they had available.
Based upon his fights you will see better conditioning indicating stamina,
endurance. Better ko percentage, indicating power. Before I even bother
going on do you really think Frazier is better, then why?
-Nick
SuperCalo
fraizier was better at getting hit, getting knocked down and better at being
over rated than Marciano
Gaz
other peoples opinion that MAYBE Marciano on a good day may have
beaten Ali on a bad one, but the burden of proof is on the Rocky fans
IMO. The title makes it sound like the man who beat Liston, Foreman,
Frazier etc in title fights and held the title over 3 decades would go
into the fight an underdog against a man who was champ for 3 years (in
a poor era), who had a total of 6 title fights and whose title fights
were against opponents including (2) LightHeavyweights (one of them
twice), an old man and a guy he'd already beaten.
Gaz
d...@cheetah.net
One of the stories that floated around for years was
told by Archie Moore. After he fought Marciano, he
said the worst thing of the fight was his flash knockdown
of Marciano in the 2nd round. He claimed that it made
Marciano more focussed as he began the siege that finally
ended with Moore being knock down and then knocked out.
Moore was one to create a lot of boxing lore in his time.
However, reviewing the old films of the fight, it seems
that Moore may have been off a bit. Marciano always
fought with intensity from the 1st bell until the last,
or as one must observe, the 10-count.
DCI
NICHOLAS D.
"Gaz" <gaz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:93c86c54.03073...@posting.google.com...
Let's look closer at your statement. Then go back to the order of the
question. Liston Ali fought twice, once was a suspect fight because of the
punch that ko'd Liston barely grazed him. Foul play was suggested. Look up
"Phantom punch." Forman had the most padded career until he fought Frazier
or Ali. Frazier beat Ali first and questionably lost the second fight, third
was Ali because Frazier's coach Futch wouldn't let him answer the last round
in a close fight. With the lack of mentioning Ali, Frazier, or Forman
fighting each other their careers would look less significant today. They
promoted each others career to another level that made each one look like a
top ten HW fighter of all time but erase any two of the three names from
history and the one left seems average at best.
Next Ali didn't even hold the title in three different decades let alone
hold it for three decades. Joe Louis nearly did that, NOT Ali. In
criticizing Rocky for holding the belt only three years look at what # match
each fighter was offered the HW title shot. This is just roll playing. For
instance Ali had his title shot early on in his career at his 20th fight.
Marciano Didn't get a title shot until his 43rd fight. If the situation was
reversed Ali would have lost that 43rd fight as he did to Norton in '73 and
would not get another title shot until Foreman his 47th fight. If Marciano
had the opportunity at his 20th fight for the HW title imagine he'd have 29
title wins. In fact nobody left boxing from Rocky's 20-43rd fight, all the
names were the same so this would be more truthful to his success. They even
tried bringing in an old warrior Joe Louis to try and beat Rocky. The man
was that good.
-Nick
Gaz
> "Gaz" <gaz...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
Nick, I'll do you the same honour you did me ;O), so in order we have,
You hav n't addressed the first Liston fight, the second was 'suspect'
because Liston knew the same thing was going to happped again and took
the money and ran. Foreman had already beaten Frazier and Norton
before Ali beat him, to say Ali's reign os champ would be 'average at
best' as you say if you took out Foreman and Frazier is nonsense,
lessened yes. but average. But the fact remains we can't erase those
fights from history, they happened and they ar part of the Ali's
career.
I'll hold my hands up to the three decades thing , It was late and I
was wrong :O)
Now with the Frazier fights you are really stretching it! Granted Ali
lost the first, coming back after a long lay off (in what would have
been his peak years BTW) The second was not 'questionable' Ali won a
close but clear decision as for the third, Futch pulled Frazier out,
have you known Futch to pull fighters out needlessly very often?
Frazier was behind on points and about to get knocked out, no
controvery there.
Your last paragraph. You seriously think Rocky would have won the
title in his 20th fight? No me either, and then retained it until his
49th? That not role play thats Twilight Zone.
You saved the best for last though, they brought a totally shot Louis
back to give Marciano a win over a big name opponent, not because they
thought he could win.
I feel sorry for Marciano in that he didn't have the opponents around
to bring out the best in him, but thats the way it was. To denegrate
Ali's achievements with 'role play','what if XXXXX fighter had n't
existed' and questioning legit wins against Frazier just smacks of
desperatation.
BTW I'd go as far as to say Ali's first reign ALONE was better that
Marcianos ONLY reign.
Gaz
the Nay Sayer
> NICHOLAS D. wrote:
> > "the Nay Sayer" <Nay_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:b0fce696.0307...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >
> >>If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
> >>Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
> >>caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
> >>that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
> >>considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
> >>but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
> >>for fifteen rounds...
> >>
> >>
>
>
> Walcott was 37 not 39
According to Boxrec.com Walcott was born Jan 31 1914. The first
Marciano fight took place Setp 23 1952. That makes Walcott four
months and one week short of his 39th birthday.....
> and he didn;t give him a beating for 13 rounds. He
> was knocked out in the 13th and it wasn't a haymaker, the punch was
> about a foot long perfectly timed right cross which to me demonstrates
> the speed and power the guy had
Ok, so I guess getting dropped in the first round and getting
staggered in the 11th and 12th rounds doesn't constitute a beating.
But it begs the question; How does Marciano let grandpa Walcott drop
him in the first round and hang around for eleven more to do more
damage?
> Walcott's age aside he was the
> heavyweight champ when there was only one and was a match for any
> heavyweight that ever lived.
He 'was a match for any heavyweight that ever lived'? You don't
*really* believe that do you? Goes to show how far Marciano
worshippers will go. Making statements as absurd as the above does
not do you any credit nor does it help to make your case. Had it been
Sonny Liston or Jack Johnson or even Joe Frazier Walcott wouldn't have
made it out of the first round....
the Nay Sayer
the Nay Sayer
Whatever substance (if there really was one) that was in Marciano's
eyes didn't become a factor in the fight until the fifth round. That
does not explain how Marciano lets an ole' man put him on the
canvas...
>
> > > Now please reread the other persons post
> > > comparing a far better swarmer then Frazier fighting Ali.
> > >
> > A *far* better swarmer than Frazier? Based on what? His record
> > against 'A' level opponents? His defense? Boxing ability? Please
> > explain...
> >
> > the Nay Sayer
>
> You can not match level of opponents fairly from different eras. You must
> see how well each performed in their time with what they had available.
> Based upon his fights you will see better conditioning indicating stamina,
> endurance. Better ko percentage, indicating power. Before I even bother
> going on do you really think Frazier is better, then why?
>
IMHO, an argument can be made for Frazier and one can be made for
Marciano. However, an argument can NOT be made that Marciano was
*far* better than Frazier. Not in a million years. To quote Gene
Tunney in an article he wrote in Dec. 1952:
"Well, I'll say one thing, Rocky is built for the part. He's powerful
and rugged, and as a mat referee he will have plenty of opportunity to
study and learn the various wrestling holds, both offensive and
defensive. In the meantime, I hope he'll study and learn more about
his present profession. For while he is the top man in his business, I
believe he has still plenty to learn. I believe that he will learn,
too, and will gradually grow better and better as he climbs to his
zenith, at which time he will not suffer by comparison with any of his
predecessors as the kingpin among ring fighting champions."
"Rocky is a fighter who appears to learn rapidly. He showed immense
improvement in his last fight over his previous performances in the
ring. Jersey Joe Walcott made him look pretty amateurish at times in
their encounter, but there was no time, in my opinion, when the wily
and experienced veteran had him in serious trouble--and make no
mistake about Walcott not being a very high grade artisan at his
trade."
I challenge anyone to find an article or a quote that would suggest
Joe Frazier "has still plenty to learn" or "look pretty amateurish at
times" when he was champ.
the Nay Sayer
NICHOLAS D.
> Nick, I'll do you the same honour you did me ;O), so in order we have,
Thanks you seem like a respectable person for keeping things tame, I'll
comment below.
> You hav n't addressed the first Liston fight, the second was 'suspect'
> because Liston knew the same thing was going to happped again and took
> the money and ran.
That is high speculation on your behalf. It is more likely he took a dive
but the reasons we don't know.
Foreman had already beaten Frazier and Norton
> before Ali beat him,
Like I said with the absence of Ali or Frazier's name Foreman's career would
look average.
to say Ali's reign os champ would be 'average at
> best' as you say if you took out Foreman and Frazier is nonsense,
> lessened yes. but average.
I enveloped all three into the same sentence. Of the three yes Ali's would
be much better even eliminating Foreman and Frazier. However even you said
it, it would certainly lessen it, IMO a good deal.
But the fact remains we can't erase those
> fights from history, they happened and they ar part of the Ali's
> career.
Yes they are just like the facts that Marciano is undefeated and had a 88%
ko record. 43 of the 49 openants faced he knocked out. His era looked weak
because he never lost. Lastarza had an awesome defense. Rocky had to beat
his arms down before he could even get body shots in. Lastarza wound up
having bone chips in his forearms from the Rock's hits. Vingo he nearly
killed in the ring.
> I'll hold my hands up to the three decades thing , It was late and I
> was wrong :O)
No problem take it easy on me next time. :')
>
> Now with the Frazier fights you are really stretching it! Granted Ali
> lost the first, coming back after a long lay off (in what would have
> been his peak years BTW) The second was not 'questionable' Ali won a
> close but clear decision as for the third, Futch pulled Frazier out,
> have you known Futch to pull fighters out needlessly very often?
> Frazier was behind on points and about to get knocked out, no
> controvery there.
This was when I was little so I used this ESPN source:
http://sports.espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Frazier_Joe.html
> Your last paragraph. You seriously think Rocky would have won the
> title in his 20th fight? No me either, and then retained it until his
> 49th? That not role play thats Twilight Zone.
From Rocky's 20th fight in 1949 I am not to sure it was either Walcott or
Charles that had the title and by his 43rd fight in '52 (3 years later) it
was guess who? Walcott. See it bounced between Walcott, Charles, and Louis
before Rocky got his shot and he beat them all.
> You saved the best for last though, they brought a totally shot Louis
> back to give Marciano a win over a big name opponent, not because they
> thought he could win.
Actually the "totally shot Louis" was 9-1 on his return to boxing. He came
back to boxing not to give Marciano a big win name but to pay back the
Government back taxes he owed. Marciano never wanted to fight Louis, he
idolized him but it was the only way to try and get a title fight lined up.
> I feel sorry for Marciano in that he didn't have the opponents around
> to bring out the best in him, but thats the way it was. To denegrate
> Ali's achievements with 'role play','what if XXXXX fighter had n't
> existed' and questioning legit wins against Frazier just smacks of
> desperatation.
Marciano may have had some of the best competition for his time, however he
never let his openants show it and he didn't have the media in his era like
Ali. As mentioned Ali, Foreman, Frazier made each others legacy what it is
today.
> BTW I'd go as far as to say Ali's first reign ALONE was better that
> Marcianos ONLY reign.
>
> Gaz
Nope disagree.
-Nick :o)
Loki
Not sure what your point is. Ali's 20 fight was against Sonny Liston.
Marciano's was against Ted Lowrey, who already had 48 losses on his
record. Ali's 27th was against Cleveland Williams and Marciano's was
against Eldridge Eaton who was 14-17-3. Ali's 30th was against Jerry
Quarry. Marciano's 30th was a rematch with Ted Lowrey who had managed
three victories out of the 11 bouts he fought between his first and
second shot at Marciano.
Do you not think that if Ali had fought more Eaton's and Lowrey's that
he would have been able to remain undefeated, and really untested for
a much longer time?
And do you think that if Marciano had been fighting championship
caliber fighters from his 20th fight on that he would have had as
impressive a record?
Loki
d...@cheetah.net
>Dennis <denn...@msn.com> wrote in message news:<3F2812C5...@msn.com>...
>> NICHOLAS D. wrote:
>> > "the Nay Sayer" <Nay_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:b0fce696.0307...@posting.google.com...
>> >
>> >
>> >>If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
>> >>Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose getting
>> >>caught by a haymaker then there in NO sound logical reason to think
>> >>that the best HW in history, with one of the best chins ever, AND
>> >>considering ALI's hand and foot speed, would lose to the Rock. Sorry,
>> >>but it's target practice for Ali who dances circles around Marciano
>> >>for fifteen rounds...
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> Walcott was 37 not 39
>
>
>According to Boxrec.com Walcott was born Jan 31 1914. The first
>Marciano fight took place Setp 23 1952. That makes Walcott four
>months and one week short of his 39th birthday.....
From the death records of Social Security:
Name Birth Death Last Residence Last Benefit SSN
Arnold 31 Jan 31 Jan 08109 Non specified 144-09-9607
R CREAM 1914 1994 (Merchantville,
Camden)
Hopes this helps.
For fun, the same Social Security records give
Archie Moore's DOB as December 13, 1916.
DCI
Gaz
>
> Thanks you seem like a respectable person for keeping things tame, I'll
> comment below.
I hope so, 'cos we disagree doesn't mean we have to get nasty?
> >
> This was when I was little so I used this ESPN source:
> http://sports.espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Frazier_Joe.html
A biog of Joe Frazier is hardly likely to be the best source for an
unbiased account? Ask some of the old timers around here, all 3 Ali-
Frazier fights ended in the right result
> >
> Nope disagree.
> -Nick :o)
Then on all rest I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :O)
(just please try and get a video of Ali KO3 Cleveland Williams and
then tell me Rocky wouldv'e won)
>
Gaz ;O)
Gaz
I've just realized where we differ, its in your sentence:
'His era looked weak because he never lost.'
You believe that.
I believe
"He never lost because his era was weak'
Thats the difference.
all the best
Gaz
NICHOLAS D.
> Whatever substance (if there really was one) that was in Marciano's
> eyes didn't become a factor in the fight until the fifth round. That
> does not explain how Marciano lets an ole' man put him on the
> canvas...
You make it sound like no one else has been knocked down before. Rocky was
down for 3 seconds then came out brawling again. What other fighter in his
career never went down? What other fighter has only gone down 1 or 2 times?
What other fighter was never ko'd?
> I challenge anyone to find an article or a quote that would suggest
> Joe Frazier "has still plenty to learn" or "look pretty amateurish at
> times" when he was champ.
>
>
> the Nay Sayer
No one is discrediting Frazier he just wasn't as good as Rocky which should
be a well known fact if you look at Ring Magazine rating the best swarmer.
-Nick
the Nay Sayer
>
> "the Nay Sayer" <Nay_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b0fce696.03073...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Whatever substance (if there really was one) that was in Marciano's
> > eyes didn't become a factor in the fight until the fifth round.
> > That does not explain how Marciano lets an ole' man put him on the
> > canvas...
>
> You make it sound like no one else has been knocked down before. Rocky
> was down for 3 seconds then came out brawling again. What other
> fighter in his career never went down? What other fighter has only
> gone down 1 or 2 times? What other fighter was never ko'd?
>
There's no shame in getting knocked down when it comes at the hands of a
young strong big puncher. But Marciano's knock down @ the hands of Walcott
needs to be put in it's proper context. Marciano was knocked down by a 39
year old LHW. That's relevent, especially since it wouldn't be the last time
an ole' LHW would drop Marciano early...
> > I challenge anyone to find an article or a quote that would suggest
> > Joe Frazier "has still plenty to learn" or "look pretty amateurish
> > at times" when he was champ.
> >
> >
> > the Nay Sayer
>
> No one is discrediting Frazier he just wasn't as good as Rocky which
> should be a well known fact if you look at Ring Magazine rating the
> best swarmer.
>
You can certainly make that argument however I was taking issue with the
statement that Marciano was a *far* better swarmer than Frazier. IMHO, you
can't honestly make that argument. Especially considering Frazier's level of
opposotion compared to Marciano.
the Nay Sayer
Kip King
> "Kip King" <wod...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:cbfe67b5.03072...@posting.google.com...
> > GU...@webtv.net (D. Flynn) wrote in message
> news:<24568-3F...@storefull-2312.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
> > > In 1969, a 46 year old Marciano, who hadn't had a pro fight in 14 years,
> > > spent a day sparring w/Ali and beat the shit out of him. Even Ali
> > > loyalist Ferdie Pacheco couldn't believe how one-sided it was. A few
> > > days later Lou Duva asked Ali if the Rock could still punch. "Are you
> > > kidding?" he replied and lifted his shirt to reveal deep bruises on both
> > > his sides.
> >
> > Ali was famous for always letting people pound on him in sparring.
>
> which is why he is now a retard
He's not. He has Parkinsons disease which his doctors say he would
have got even if he never boxed. Howard Cosell had the same thing the
last few years of his life and Michael J. Fox has it now.
BoxMuham
>If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
>Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose
First of all, Walcott was still near his best at that time, and of
course, he was the heavyweight champion of the world and was favored to beat
Marciano.
Secondly, Walcott did *not* give Marciano a beating for 13 rounds,
by any stretch of imagination. Marciano was blinded from the 5th round on by
cut medication on the gloves (similar to what happened in the Clay-Liston
match). The fight was still fairly even at the time Marciano knocked Walcott
smooooth the f*ck out, in one of the best single shot KO's in history.
BoxM
BoxMuham
>That
>does not explain how Marciano lets an ole' man put him on the
>canvas...
You're seriously disrespecting the "ole man," who in this case was
the great Jersey Joe Walcott.
Of course, Marciano got up *immediately*, wasn't hurt at all, and
continued to fight like hell. Same as it ever was.
The fact that Marciano was caught cold early on, got up quickly and
came back to KO his opponent is a quality that earns respect, not something he
can be put down for! Damn... A lot of fighters fold as soon as they're
knocked down. Tyson, for example. Every time he was knocked down in a fight,
he was knocked the f*ck out.
>To quote Gene
>Tunney in an article he wrote in Dec. 1952:
May as well quote Joe Louis, who said in his autobiography that
Marciano would have been too much for Ali.
BoxM
BoxMuham
>? What other fighter has only gone down 1 or 2 times?
>What other fighter was never ko'd?
You forgot one. What other champion won *every single time* he
fought?
None. Only Marciano. He's the only one in 120 years of Queensbury
rules.
>No one is discrediting Frazier he just wasn't as good as Rocky which should
>be a well known fact if you look at Ring Magazine rating the best swarmer.
Joe Frazier was great. Marciano was better.
BoxMuhammad
BoxMuham
>But Marciano's knock down @ the hands of Walcott
>needs to be put in it's proper context. Marciano was knocked down by a 39
>year old LHW. That's relevent
That is a *very* weak argument. The much more important part is
that Marciano got up immediately, never appeared hurt in the slightest, and
knocked his opponent out.
BoxM
BoxMuham
>All true but to listen to alot of people on the internet you'd think he
>was always being beaten up until he landed a big wild lucky punch. And
>the amazing thing is he did it 46 times in 49 fights.
Nah, it's not "alot of people." Only the few who don't know jack
about Marciano's career.
Marciano is one of the most respected fighters ever, for good
reason.
BoxM
Robert Phillips
BoxMuham wrote:
> The fact that Marciano was caught cold early on, got up quickly and
> came back to KO his opponent is a quality that earns respect, not something he
> can be put down for! Damn... A lot of fighters fold as soon as they're
> knocked down. Tyson, for example. Every time he was knocked down in a fight,
> he was knocked the f*ck out.
I figured it was only a matter of time before your Tyson insults started
flying, as usual, in a thread that has nothing to do with Tyson. At
least you waited until your third paragraph.
Tyson was never "caught cold early on" in a fight, and was never knocked
down early in any fight, the way you imply by using him as an example.
Pie
Robert Phillips
BoxMuham wrote:
>>From: Dennis
>>All true but to listen to alot of people on the internet you'd think he
>>was always being beaten up until he landed a big wild lucky punch. And
>>the amazing thing is he did it 46 times in 49 fights.
>
>
> Nah, it's not "alot of people." Only the few who don't know jack
> about Marciano's career.
Well, since I know jack, I'll point out that Marciano scored 43 KOs, not
46 (assuming that's what Dennis meant).
Pie
Robert Phillips
BoxMuham wrote:
>>From: "the Nay Sayer"
>>But Marciano's knock down @ the hands of Walcott
>>needs to be put in it's proper context. Marciano was knocked down by a 39
>>year old LHW. That's relevent
That is a *very* weak argument.
It's also factually incorrect and analytically incorrect.
According to BoxRec, Marciano weighed 184 in the Walcott fight, whereas
Joe weighed 196. While both were small heavyweights by modern
standards, Walcott was 20 pounds over the lt.heavyweight limit, and
Marciano himself was much closer to being the LHW in the ring.
Pie
Robert Phillips
BoxMuham wrote:
Of course he would. That's ego. Louis already had to admit that for
their one fight, Marciano was better. Admitting that someone would beat
Marciano means admitting, by extention, that an additional fighter
besides Marciano might be better than himself. Nobody wants to admit
that. Like most other fighters when presented with that question, Louis
picks the guy whose superiority makes himself look best. I'd expect
Louis to say that.
Means nothing.
Pie
NICHOLAS D.
> >
> > Thanks you seem like a respectable person for keeping things tame, I'll
> > comment below.
>
> I hope so, 'cos we disagree doesn't mean we have to get nasty?
> > >
> > This was when I was little so I used this ESPN source:
> > http://sports.espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Frazier_Joe.html
>
> A biog of Joe Frazier is hardly likely to be the best source for an
> unbiased account? Ask some of the old timers around here, all 3 Ali-
> Frazier fights ended in the right result
Last night I went out with a few friends and one of the friends father. He
was a boxer himself a long long time ago from the Bronx. Asking him the
question about who really won the Ali Frazier 3 fights he replied, Frazier,
Frazier, Ali. He also made a comment that later on Ali once said he felt
Frazier really won the fights.
> > >
> > Nope disagree.
>
> > -Nick :o)
>
> Then on all rest I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :O)
> (just please try and get a video of Ali KO3 Cleveland Williams and
> then tell me Rocky wouldv'e won)
> >
> Gaz ;O)
I always can agree to disagree. It is a good way to leave things off. Ali
had trouble with swarmers and there is no way he would beat the most
relentless swarmer in history of boxing. Imagine Frazier x 2.
-Nick
the Nay Sayer
> >From: Nay_...@hotmail.com (the Nay Sayer)
>
> >If a *thiry-nine* year old Jersey Joe Walcott can give an in his prime
> >Rocky Marciano a beating for thirteen rounds only to loose
>
> First of all, Walcott was still near his best at that time, and of
> course, he was the heavyweight champion of the world and was favored to beat
> Marciano.
Cow chips. There's no way you're going to convince me that a 39 year
old who was 2-2 in his last four fights was anywhere near his best.
No freggin' way. Walcott was @ the end of the line and Marciano just
happened to be there to put the old gray mare out of his misery....
> Secondly, Walcott did *not* give Marciano a beating for 13 rounds,
> by any stretch of imagination. Marciano was blinded from the 5th round on by
> cut medication on the gloves (similar to what happened in the Clay-Liston
> match). The fight was still fairly even at the time Marciano knocked Walcott
> smooooth the f*ck out, in one of the best single shot KO's in history.
>
Fairly even? Who's revisionist history have you been reading? In
Gene Tunney's own words Walcott made Marciano look 'Amateurish'. The
fight was not even in the same zipcode as 'Fairly Even'....
the Nay Sayer
NICHOLAS D.
"the Nay Sayer" <bla...@vei.net> wrote in message
news:nESdnWyYovO...@veiinternet.net...
> There's no shame in getting knocked down when it comes at the hands of a
> young strong big puncher. But Marciano's knock down @ the hands of Walcott
> needs to be put in it's proper context. Marciano was knocked down by a 39
> year old LHW. That's relevent, especially since it wouldn't be the last
time
> an ole' LHW would drop Marciano early...
For 3 seconds? He wasn't even stunned. Besides he went on to Ko Walcott
twice and a ko is what really matters not dropping a person for 3 seconds.
> You can certainly make that argument however I was taking issue with the
> statement that Marciano was a *far* better swarmer than Frazier. IMHO, you
> can't honestly make that argument. Especially considering Frazier's level
of
> opposotion compared to Marciano.
>
> the Nay Sayer
Frazier had a left hook. Rocky had both a left and a right. Rocky could take
a punch and certainly give one. Rocky was just as productive in the first
round as he was in the last round. If you ever goto Bobby Bearden's site
Frazier rates Marciano above himself.
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047//Rock.html
-Nick
the Nay Sayer
> >From: Nay_...@hotmail.com (the Nay Sayer)
>
> >That
> >does not explain how Marciano lets an ole' man put him on the
> >canvas...
>
> You're seriously disrespecting the "ole man," who in this case was
> the great Jersey Joe Walcott.
So are you asserting that Walcott was a great heavyweight?
> Of course, Marciano got up *immediately*, wasn't hurt at all, and
> continued to fight like hell. Same as it ever was.
>
Marciano was up @ the count of five....
> The fact that Marciano was caught cold early on, got up quickly and
> came back to KO his opponent is a quality that earns respect, not something he
> can be put down for!
He was caught cold early, made to look like an amateur, got staggered
in both the 11th and 12th rounds, and was behind on the scorecards
going into the 13th. Call a spade a spade....
> Damn... A lot of fighters fold as soon as they're
> knocked down. Tyson, for example. Every time he was knocked down in a fight,
> he was knocked the f*ck out.
>
The fact that he was able to put Walcott out of his misery after
absorbing a beating is a credit to Marciano. Problem is it took him
13 rounds....
> >To quote Gene
> >Tunney in an article he wrote in Dec. 1952:
>
> May as well quote Joe Louis, who said in his autobiography that
> Marciano would have been too much for Ali.
>
That still doesn't explain how a senior citizen made him look like an
amatuer....
the Nay Sayer
the Nay Sayer
> >From: "the Nay Sayer"
>
> >But Marciano's knock down @ the hands of Walcott
> >needs to be put in it's proper context. Marciano was knocked down by a 39
> >year old LHW. That's relevent
>
> That is a *very* weak argument.
It's not an argument, only an observation....
> The much more important part is
> that Marciano got up immediately,
He was up @ the count of five....
> never appeared hurt in the slightest, and
> knocked his opponent out.
>
You make it sound like he KO'ed Walcott in the very next round.
You've forgotten a bunch of details.....
the Nay Sayer
Loki
<ND...@OPTONLINEBULLSHIT.NET> wrote:
>> > This was when I was little so I used this ESPN source:
>> > http://sports.espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Frazier_Joe.html
>>
>> A biog of Joe Frazier is hardly likely to be the best source for an
>> unbiased account? Ask some of the old timers around here, all 3 Ali-
>> Frazier fights ended in the right result
>
>Last night I went out with a few friends and one of the friends father. He
>was a boxer himself a long long time ago from the Bronx. Asking him the
>question about who really won the Ali Frazier 3 fights he replied, Frazier,
>Frazier, Ali. He also made a comment that later on Ali once said he felt
>Frazier really won the fights.
No F***ing way that Fraizer won the second fight. At best he won 4
rounds, and was saved from a second round KO only by the bell going at
2 minutes.
Loki
BoxMuham
>Asking him the
>question about who really won the Ali Frazier 3 fights he replied, Frazier,
>Frazier, Ali.
Ali won the rematch convincingly. And of course, he stopped Frazier
in the rubber match.
Frazier did beat Ali when both were undefeated, but some of that was
due to the fact that Ali was just coming off of 3 1/2 years out of the ring,
and had only two warm up bouts to prepare for Smokin' Joe.
I don't want to take anything away from Frazier. He was a *great*
fighter. Ali clearly got the better of him, and overall, Ali was the greater
fighter. More tools, more skills... Hey, he's Ali.
In terms of Marciano vs. Ali, while The Rock would have some advantages
over Smokin' Joe, I still see Ali beating Marciano convincingly.
At his best, Ali beats just about everyone convincingly.
BoxMuhammad
BoxMuham
>So are you asserting that Walcott was a great heavyweight?
Of course he was. Why do you think Muhammad Ali considers him one of
the 10 greatest heavyweights of all time?
>The fact that he was able to put Walcott out of his misery after
>absorbing a beating is a credit to Marciano. Problem is it took him
>13 rounds....
Problem? LOL! Was it a "problem" that it took Ali 14 rounds to stop
Frazier? A "problem" that it took Larry Holmes 13 rounds to stop Cooney? A
"problem" that it took Joe Louis 11 rounds to stop Walcott? A "problem it took
Holyfield 11 rounds to stop Tyson?
The fact that Walcott lasted 13 rounds with Marciano is a credit to
Jersey Joe, although the fact that Marciano was blinded from the 5th round on
certainly had a lot to do with it. You conveniently ignore that fact as you go
on and on about the "beating" that Marciano, in reality, didn't take from
Walcott.
Of course, in the rematch Marciano knocked Walcott out in the 1st
round. You must be very satisfied with that result.
>That still doesn't explain how a senior citizen made him look like an
>amatuer....
Yes, if only every heavyweight could be so "amateurish." 49-0.
BoxMuhammad
NICHOLAS D.
> boxm...@aol.com (BoxMuham) wrote in message
news:<20030801050656...@mb-m15.aol.com>...
> > >From: "the Nay Sayer"
> >
> > >But Marciano's knock down @ the hands of Walcott
> > >needs to be put in it's proper context. Marciano was knocked down by a
39
> > >year old LHW. That's relevent
> >
> > That is a *very* weak argument.
>
>
> It's not an argument, only an observation....
>
>
> > The much more important part is
> > that Marciano got up immediately,
>
>
> He was up @ the count of five....
Do you dare to post your source?
> > never appeared hurt in the slightest, and
> > knocked his opponent out.
> >
>
> You make it sound like he KO'ed Walcott in the very next round.
> You've forgotten a bunch of details.....
>
>
> the Nay Sayer
No that was the very next fight were Rocky proved to the naysayers of the
50's he could do it again.
-Nick :o)
NICHOLAS D.
"Robert Phillips" <rp...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0btWa.5132$On2.3...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
I agree with your correction however that lead me to wonder something else.
Of the 6 that weren't ko'd, how many were at least knocked down in their
fight with Rocky?
-Nick
NICHOLAS D.
Pie when you look at how well Frazier did to Ali and then compare how Rocky
is to Frazier you would expect Rocky would be better then Ali. I borrowed
this from Bobby's site. It is Louis's take on Rocky vs. Ali:
Joe Louis:
(From the book "My Life: Joe Louis" by Joe Louis w/ Edna and Art Rust, Jr)
"That jabbing and running would have made it hard for me to catch a guy like
Ali, but eventually I'd get him and knock him out. Ali's a great fighter,
but I think a Rocky Marciano or Jack Dempsey would rate ahead of him. So
would Walcott. Ali makes too many mistakes, his hands are down allot, and
he
takes too many punches to the body."
-Nick
NICHOLAS D.
"BoxMuham" <boxm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030801143756...@mb-m02.aol.com...
See my other post on Louis's response to who is better.
-Nick :o)
the Nay Sayer
> >From: Nay_...@hotmail.com (the Nay Sayer)
>
> >That
> >does not explain how Marciano lets an ole' man put him on the
> >canvas...
>
> You're seriously disrespecting the "ole man," who in this case was
> the great Jersey Joe Walcott.
PS
After looking @ Walcott's record I noticed that in his 41st
professional fight he lost to a guy who was 0-0-0. Now I know that
Boxrec.com doesn't have the most complete database in the world BUT
upon further investigation I discovered that in his 21st pro fight he
lost to a guy who was 13-19-1. The thing that baffles me most is that
Walcott had just beaten this bum in his previous fight. In his very
next fight he gets KO'ed by a guy nobody's ever heard of. Three
fights later Walcott loses to a guy who is 7-0.
From what I can ascertain there are only two names of consequence on
Walcott's resume with a 'W' in the win column. Joey Maxim, a LHW, and
Ezzard Charles, a washed up LHW....
Now, do you still want to hang the title of 'great' around Jersey Joe
Walcott's neck?
the Nay Sayer
the Nay Sayer
> >From: Nay_...@hotmail.com (the Nay Sayer)
>
> >So are you asserting that Walcott was a great heavyweight?
>
> Of course he was. Why do you think Muhammad Ali considers him one of
> the 10 greatest heavyweights of all time?
>
Yeah he was so great in fact that he defended the HW title all of
*one* time. Against the man whom he had taken it from & previously
lost to. BTW, have you posted your top ten all-time HW list lately?
> >The fact that he was able to put Walcott out of his misery after
> >absorbing a beating is a credit to Marciano. Problem is it took him
> >13 rounds....
>
> Problem? LOL! Was it a "problem" that it took Ali 14 rounds to stop
> Frazier? A "problem" that it took Larry Holmes 13 rounds to stop Cooney? A
> "problem" that it took Joe Louis 11 rounds to stop Walcott? A "problem it took
> Holyfield 11 rounds to stop Tyson?
>
Frazier, Cooney, and Tyson were not *39* year ole' men. Compare
apples to apples...
> The fact that Walcott lasted 13 rounds with Marciano is a credit to
> Jersey Joe, although the fact that Marciano was blinded from the 5th round on
> certainly had a lot to do with it. You conveniently ignore that fact as you go
> on and on about the "beating" that Marciano, in reality, didn't take from
> Walcott.
>
Carrying a geriatric HW for 5 rounds is still nothing to be proud of.
Sonny Liston, a guy who damn sure doesn't get enough credit around
here, did away with a weak HW champ in one round. Twice. The only
fact that conveniently gets ignored is the fact that Marciano let the
fight go on for 11 1/2 rounds too long....
> Of course, in the rematch Marciano knocked Walcott out in the 1st
> round. You must be very satisfied with that result.
>
He should have done that the first time, like Liston did. Instead,
Marciano let an ole' man give him a boxing lesson for 12 1/2
rounds....
> >That still doesn't explain how a senior citizen made him look like an
> >amatuer....
>
> Yes, if only every heavyweight could be so "amateurish." 49-0.
>
49-0 in the weakest era in HW history. Context....
the Nay Sayer
Peter M Anal
. Tyson, for example. Every time he was knocked down in a fight,
> he was knocked the f*ck out.
Jeez!! That a serious anti-Tyson obsession you have there tate!
Robert Phillips
NICHOLAS D. wrote:
> Pie when you look at how well Frazier did to Ali and then compare how Rocky
> is to Frazier you would expect Rocky would be better then Ali.
I would?
No, I wouldn't.
I borrowed
> this from Bobby's site. It is Louis's take on Rocky vs. Ali:
>
> Joe Louis:
>
> (From the book "My Life: Joe Louis" by Joe Louis w/ Edna and Art Rust, Jr)
>
> "That jabbing and running would have made it hard for me to catch a guy like
> Ali, but eventually I'd get him and knock him out. Ali's a great fighter,
> but I think a Rocky Marciano or Jack Dempsey would rate ahead of him. So
> would Walcott. Ali makes too many mistakes, his hands are down allot, and
> he
> takes too many punches to the body."
> -Nick
Gee, that's nice.
Doesn't change what I said.
Heck, it doesn't even contradict what I said.
But gee, it's nice.
Pie
BoxMuham
>Now, do you still want to hang the title of 'great' around Jersey Joe
>Walcott's neck?
Of course.
And one day, you may learn.
BoxMuham
>See my other post on Louis's response to who is better.
I've mentioned that quote from Louis' autobiography a couple of times
in this thread. I don't agree with him, but I don't dismiss Marciano's chances
against Ali. Marciano was one of the greatest fighters who ever lived. Other
than George Foreman, who would be too much for almost everyone but Ali and
perhaps Holmes, Marciano would have a good shot at beating any of the great
heavyweights.
BoxMuhammad
BoxMuham
>Yeah he was so great in fact that he defended the HW title all of
>*one* time.
That's because he was fighting Rocky Marciano.
>Against the man whom he had taken it from & previously
>lost to.
That man's name was Ezzard Charles. Another *great* fighter.
>Frazier, Cooney, and Tyson were not *39* year ole' men. Compare
>apples to apples...
Your point is silly. There is zero shame in Marciano being dropped
by Walcott. He got right up, was never hurt, kept on fighting, and knocked
Walcott smoooth the f*ck out.
Heavyweights drop other heavyweights. Your point is meaningless.
Now if Marciano had been KO'd by Walcott, you'd be onto something.
But of course, Marciano *never* lost a fight.
>Carrying a geriatric HW for 5 rounds is still nothing to be proud of.
You've beaten yourself into the ground.
>49-0 in the weakest era in HW history. Context....
Nah. Marciano beat great fighters Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles
and Archie Moore.
The weakest era was Tyson's era. Until Holyfield came along...
BoxM
the Nay Sayer
"NICHOLAS D." <ND...@OPTONLINEBULLSHIT.NET> wrote in message
news:vBzWa.26914$Wd5.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> "the Nay Sayer" <Nay_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b0fce696.0308...@posting.google.com...
> > boxm...@aol.com (BoxMuham) wrote in message
> news:<20030801050656...@mb-m15.aol.com>...
> > > >From: "the Nay Sayer"
> > >
> > > >But Marciano's knock down @ the hands of Walcott
> > > >needs to be put in it's proper context. Marciano was knocked down by
a
> 39
> > > >year old LHW. That's relevent
> > >
> > > That is a *very* weak argument.
> >
> >
> > It's not an argument, only an observation....
> >
> >
> > > The much more important part is
> > > that Marciano got up immediately,
> >
> >
> > He was up @ the count of five....
>
> Do you dare to post your source?
>
http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0502-pd.html
the Nay Sayer
NICHOLAS D.
>
> NICHOLAS D. wrote:
>
>
> > Pie when you look at how well Frazier did to Ali and then compare how
Rocky
> > is to Frazier you would expect Rocky would be better then Ali.
>
>
> I would?
> No, I wouldn't.
Answer this is Frazier better then Marciano? Yes or no without a song or
dance.
> I borrowed
> > this from Bobby's site. It is Louis's take on Rocky vs. Ali:
> >
> > Joe Louis:
> >
> > (From the book "My Life: Joe Louis" by Joe Louis w/ Edna and Art Rust,
Jr)
> >
> > "That jabbing and running would have made it hard for me to catch a guy
like
> > Ali, but eventually I'd get him and knock him out. Ali's a great
fighter,
> > but I think a Rocky Marciano or Jack Dempsey would rate ahead of him.
So
> > would Walcott. Ali makes too many mistakes, his hands are down allot,
and
> > he
> > takes too many punches to the body."
> > -Nick
>
>
> Gee, that's nice.
> Doesn't change what I said.
> Heck, it doesn't even contradict what I said.
> But gee, it's nice.
>
>
> Pie
Actually he addressed Ali's strengths and weakness's first then made a
rational decision. IMO ego wouldn't account for such calculations rather it
would put a decision without thought first and wait to be asked why.
-Nick
the Nay Sayer
>
> Frazier had a left hook. Rocky had both a left and a right. Rocky could
take
> a punch and certainly give one. Rocky was just as productive in the first
> round as he was in the last round. If you ever goto Bobby Bearden's site
> Frazier rates Marciano above himself.
>
What great HW did Marciano ever beat?
the Nay Sayer
the Nay Sayer
> >From: Nay_...@hotmail.com
>
> >Yeah he was so great in fact that he defended the HW title all of
> >*one* time.
>
> That's because he was fighting Rocky Marciano.
>
> >Against the man whom he had taken it from & previously
> >lost to.
>
> That man's name was Ezzard Charles. Another *great* fighter.
>
Great fighter yes, great HW no....
> >Frazier, Cooney, and Tyson were not *39* year ole' men. Compare
> >apples to apples...
> yo
> Your point is silly. There is zero shame in Marciano being
dropped
> by Walcott. He got right up, was never hurt, kept on fighting, and
knocked
> Walcott smoooth the f*ck out.
Well maybe we have different criteria for shame. In my book, there's
something seriously wrong when you let senior citizens put you on the canvas
early in a fight...
> Heavyweights drop other heavyweights. Your point is meaningless.
> Now if Marciano had been KO'd by Walcott, you'd be onto
something.
> But of course, Marciano *never* lost a fight.
>
Marciano never fought anyone with a pulse....
> >Carrying a geriatric HW for 5 rounds is still nothing to be proud of.
>
> You've beaten yourself into the ground.
>
No, Marcaino beat a geriatric HW into the ground. 12 rounds too late...
> >49-0 in the weakest era in HW history. Context....
>
> Nah. Marciano beat great fighters Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard
Charles
> and Archie Moore.
>
Walcott was NOT a great HW. Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore were great
LHWs......
the Nay Sayer
the Nay Sayer
Ok, then make your case. Please explain exactly what makes Walcott a great
HW? Then take a poll and see how many here agree with you....
the Nay Sayer
BoxMuham
>> > He was up @ the count of five....
You haven't seen the fight, have you? Marciano was up from the
canvas in *2 seconds.* Yes, as I said, he immediately got up.
The man counting the knockdown seconds strangely counted "3, 4, 5"
AFTER Marciano was up. If you've ever seen the fight, that would all be very
clear to you. It isn't.
With all of your BS about Marciano being "beaten up" for 13 rounds, it
is obvious that you haven't seen the fight, and are only grasping at straws in
a losing attempt to discredit one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.
Of course, when a fighter wins *every single time* he ever
fights, it's very hard to discredit him. Marciano is the ONLY champion in any
weight division in the last 120 years who won every single one of his fights.
You kept pointing to the knockdown by Walcott, as though that's some
evidence that Marciano wasn't tough. Of course, Rocky Marciano was one of the
toughest fighters who ever lived.
BoxMuhammad
BoxMuham
>Marciano never fought anyone with a pulse....
You've sunken to the level of trolling. Add another loss to your
record, nay sayer. I'm done with you.
Blade Of Sorrow
>and Archie Moore.
>
> The weakest era was Tyson's era. Until Holyfield came along...
That's like saying that Holmes was knocked the fuck out by Tyson therefore
making Tyson great. An old version Holmes is still far superior than old
lightheavyweights Walcott, Charles or Moore. Your point is?
Rich Andrews
> I've often wondered what mind have been if the Rock had been a little
> younger, and lasted a little longer in terms of his fight career.
>
> Imagine a fight between Marciano and Ali. Lots of people always assume
> that Rocky would have taken Ali because Rocky never lost.
>
> But then again, Rocky never had to face an Ali.
>
> What if these two fighters could have fought each other while they
> were both in their primes ?
>
> How do you see it going ?
No contest. Rocky would have KO'd Clay and then made Cassius his
housenigger. And none of that muslim shit would have ever polluted
this country.
r
Robert Phillips
NICHOLAS D. wrote:
>
> Answer this is Frazier better then Marciano? Yes or no without a song or
> dance.
There's not much valid basis for comparison, since they fought in such
disparate eras. I mostly don't do cross-era comparisons anymore.
But I'd certainly pick Frazier. A larger man, he fought and beat better
fighters than Marciano ever did, and the only guys who ever beat him
were guys who would dribble Marciano like a basketball (Foreman) and
treat him like speedbag (Ali).
Yes, I'd pick Frazier without losing a wink of sleep about it.
Remember, you're not talking to Bobby Bearden. You're talking to
someone who understands that Marciano, while a good fighter for his
time, is one of the most overrated champs in history and is the
beneficiary of a great deal of affection that has nothing to do with his
in-the-ring performances.
Pie
Robert Phillips
NICHOLAS D. wrote:
> Actually he addressed Ali's strengths and weakness's first then made a
> rational decision. IMO ego wouldn't account for such calculations rather it
> would put a decision without thought first and wait to be asked why.
> -Nick
Oh, horseshit. Of course ego accounts for all of that. Ego makes a guy
come up with a reasonable explanation that casts himself in the best
light. That he didn't just blurt out a self-serving answer doesn't mean
that what he DID say wasn't ego-driven. And that he bothered to come up
with some analysis doesn't mean what he said wasn't ego-driven. Notice
that the guys he mentions as Ali's superiors were all from his own
generation or before. He doesn't even mention or credit the two guys
(at the time) who had, in fact, fought and beat Ali; he mentions only
guys who never fought him and whose superiority or inferiority can only
be speculated about. You think there's no ego or bias there?
Of course it's ego. When talking to a fighter, just take that for granted.
Pie
Blade Of Sorrow
>years and who had just been beaten twice in a row by Michael Spinks was NOT
>better than the Ezzard Charles, Moore, or Walcott that Marciano beat. You
>kiddin'?!
An old great heavyweight certainly has to be better than an old great
lightheavyweight. And no I am not kidding.
If Holmes can beat Mercer and go the distance with a young lion like Holyfield
in his 40s then there is no reason to believe that Walcott, Charles or Moore
were better than him at heavyweight at the same stage of their careers.
BoxMuham
>If Holmes can beat Mercer and go the distance with a young lion like
>Holyfield
>in his 40s
Holmes was significantly sharper when he faced Mercer than he was
when he faced Tyson. He'd been fighting regularly, and that made all the
difference. Even Larry Holmes, after 2 1/2 years out of the ring, gets rusty.
But at that stage in his career, no, Larry Holmes certainly not
better than the 31/32 year old Ezzard Charles, or Walcott or Moore, IMO.
>there is no reason to believe that Walcott, Charles or Moore
>were better than him at heavyweight at the same stage of their careers.
Charles was ten years younger when he faced Marciano than Holmes was
when he faced Holyfield. Archie Moore had nearly a decade of being the light
heavyweight champion ahead of him when he faced The Rock. He was far more "in
the thick" of his career than Holmes was at any point from '85 on.
Walcott was near the end of his career when he faced Marciano, but
he *was* the Heavyweight Champion of the World. Not a former great fighter
who'd never be champ again.
BoxMuhammad
the Nay Sayer
> >From: "the Nay Sayer"
>
> >> > He was up @ the count of five....
>
> You haven't seen the fight, have you? Marciano was up from the
> canvas in *2 seconds.* Yes, as I said, he immediately got up.
> The man counting the knockdown seconds strangely counted "3,
4, 5"
> AFTER Marciano was up. If you've ever seen the fight, that would all be
very
> clear to you. It isn't.
> With all of your BS about Marciano being "beaten up" for 13
rounds, it
> is obvious that you haven't seen the fight, and are only grasping at
straws in
> a losing attempt to discredit one of the greatest heavyweights of all
time.
You're right I've never seen the whole fight. Have you got it on VHS?
>
> Of course, when a fighter wins *every single time* he ever
> fights, it's very hard to discredit him. Marciano is the ONLY champion in
any
> weight division in the last 120 years who won every single one of his
fights.
>
> You kept pointing to the knockdown by Walcott, as though that's
some
> evidence that Marciano wasn't tough. Of course, Rocky Marciano was one of
the
> toughest fighters who ever lived.
>
I'm not disputing his toughness. I'm disputing the quality of Marciano's
opposition. Simply put, the only great HW Marciano ever had the pleasure of
getting in the ring with was a 67 year ole' Joe Louis. Walcott was not a
great HW buy any stretch of the imagination. Nor was Charles or Moore. The
burden of proof is on you to prove that these fighters were great HWs....
the Nay Sayer
BoxMuham
>You're right I've never seen the whole fight.
LMFAO! Of course you've never seen it. How many of Marciano's fights
have you ever seen?
And yet, you let yourself post and post on about it. You let yourself
draw conclusions about something you've never even seen. Do you realize what
you make yourself into, stating dribble that Marciano was beaten up for 13
rounds, when you've haven't even seen the fight? Damn... People shouldn't let
themselves live that way, tate.
Yet millions upon millions do. Guess I'll just consider you an enemy
of mankind from now on, nay sayer.
> Walcott was not a
>great HW buy any stretch of the imagination.
Muhammad Ali and I and millions of others will have to disagree with
you. But again, something tells me you have *never* seen a single Walcott
fight. Except perhaps Marciano-Walcott II, by which time Jersey Joe was
finally done.
>Nor was Charles or Moore. The
>burden of proof is on you
History has proven these things, tate. If you need me to talk you
into them, you need a whole hell of a lot more than that.
BoxMuhammad
Loki
>>From: "the Nay Sayer"
>
>>You're right I've never seen the whole fight.
>
> LMFAO! Of course you've never seen it. How many of Marciano's fights
>have you ever seen?
> And yet, you let yourself post and post on about it. You let yourself
>draw conclusions about something you've never even seen. Do you realize what
>you make yourself into, stating dribble that Marciano was beaten up for 13
>rounds, when you've haven't even seen the fight? Damn... People shouldn't let
>themselves live that way, tate.
Yeah... That would be as stupid as saying that one of your favorite
fighters was one you never even saw film of...
Loki
BoxMuham
>
>Yeah... That would be as stupid as saying that one of your favorite
>fighters was one you never even saw film of...
You still don't understand why Harry Greb is one of the favorite
fighters of many a fight fan? Of course you don't.
As I recall, I listed him among my favorite 20 fighters, based on
everything I've read about him in the ring, everything I know about his career.
You came for about a month after that. We have another loki hissy fit coming
on?
Enjoy the menopause!
BoxMuhammad
Loki
Greb was an all time great, to be sure. However, there is a world of
difference between aknowleging someone as an all time great from a
historical perspective and saying that he is one of your favorite
fighters. To say that someone you never saw is one of your favorite
fighters is as stupid as saying that one of your favorite restaurants
is a place you have never eaten, or one of your favorite symphonies is
one you have never heard.
It is a common trait among people with so little world experience that
they depend on the experiences of others to fulfill the emptiness in
their lives.
Loki