Military Boxers Who Did Good
Melanie Ley
Marines; Pete Rademacher, Army; Duane Bobick, Navy; Ray Mercer, Army;
Armando Muniz, Army; James Broad, Army; Sergio Reyes, Marines; Julian
Wheeler, Navy; Vincent Phillips, Army; Robert Allen, Marines; Tommy
Brooks, Air Force.
Mel
Amateur Boxing News at
www.amateurboxing.com
Loki
wrote:
> Carlos Palomino, Army; Andrew Maynard, Army; Leon Spinks,
>Marines; Pete Rademacher, Army; Duane Bobick, Navy; Ray Mercer, Army;
>Armando Muniz, Army; James Broad, Army; Sergio Reyes, Marines; Julian
>Wheeler, Navy; Vincent Phillips, Army; Robert Allen, Marines; Tommy
>Brooks, Air Force.
>
>
>Mel
I would jump in and point out that you missed Ken Norton and Gene
Tunney from the Marines had it been anyone else Mel, but you are one
of the people around here who I do not second guess... Were they not
fighters in the service?
Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere that Rocky Marciano first
fought when in the Army, but unless either you or Bobby confirm it I
will not hang my hat on the story...
Loki
Hagler Fan
"Loki" <cubby...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3dnn7v0hclgcl3gcn...@4ax.com...
Bobby Bearden
Rocky boxed while in the Army in amateur competition. His first amateur bout
was while he was home on furlough from the army.
And Tunney served with the Marines in France during World War II and was the
American Expeditionary Force Light Heavyweight Champion.
Georges Carpentier was already established as a great fighter in France when
World War I broke out and he joined up. He was an observation pilot and
decorated for bravery twice.
Marcel Cerdan was European welterweight champion when World War II started,
then joined the French navy and served till France's defeat and the
disbanding of her navy. He then joined the Free French navy and while in
that position engaged in Inter-Allied boxing tournaments.
Tony Zale, while middleweight champion, joined the US Navy after Pearl
Harbor and served for the duration of the war, freezing the title.
Max Schmeling, after losing to Joe Louis, was forced into the military by
Hitler, put into the paratroopers, and served as a front line soldier for
the war, including being one of the paratroopers who dropped onto the isle
of Crete, a battle which costs the German paratroopers a staggering 50%
casualties.
Joe Louis, Billy Conn, and Sugar Ray Robinson, among other top ranked
boxers, boxed exhibitions all over the world for the military during World
War II.
Those are the ones I can think of, but there were probably others. And
though not a boxer, it should be remembered that baseball great Ted Williams
interrupted his pro-baseball career twice to serve as a fighter pilot, both
in World War II and the Korean War.
Bobby Bearden
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icheehuahua
"Bobby Bearden" <th...@gtcom.net> wrote in message news:3e7be...@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com...
>
>
> Rocky boxed while in the Army in amateur competition.
Yes, I too have heard on this Bearden. How many bouts did Marciano lose as an Amateur?
i cheehuahua
Bobby Bearden
icheehuahua <ichee...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:_7Sea.16915$usW1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Four, three by decision over 3 rounds, one by DQ. He only had 12 amateur
fights all told and as far as anyone knows, no other boxing experience prior
to turning pro. He obviously had a lot of street and bar fights, and he took
that style of fighting all the way to the heavyweight championship.
Unlike many amateur fighters, Marciano apparently only signed up for
tournaments, which must have put him at a disadvantage against guys who were
more active. Even so, he won the Ma-RI Golden Gloves Tournament, the New
England Tournament of Champions, and the AAU Heavyweight Championship during
the AAU Olympic trials. He injured his hand in this last amateur bout, which
knocked him out of a chance for a slot on the Olympic team.
Fighting with an injured hand against Bob Girard in the Massachusetts State
Amateur Heavyweight Championship he lost the 3 round decision. Girard later
said:
. "How do you think I beat Rocky? I beat him because it was three rounds.
There were a hundred guys who might have stayed three rounds with The Rock.
But no man in the world was gonna beat Rocky in fifteen rounds; not Dempsey,
not Ali, not anybody. I knew he was going to be champ. I didn't think
anybody could hurt Rocky. Every time he hit you, you saw a flash of light.
You either grabbed him or you moved back, because if he hits you twice
you're gone."
Because of his lack of training, Marciano threw punches wrong and broke his
thumb and knuckles several times as an amateur. Before his losing fight with
DeAngelis, he severely dislocated a knuckle in his left hand and fought the
final match of the tournament one-handed. After the tournament, he spent six
weeks in the hospital with his hand in traction to realign the knuckle.
When he came under the training of Charlie Goldman as a pro, he was taught
how to throw a punch so as not to damage his hands. As a pro he never once
suffered injury to either hand, so Goldman must have corrected his incorrect
punching.
For a fact he never worried about hand injuries as a pro, nor did he have
delicate hands. Jersey Joe Walcott later said, "Marciano threw every punch
like you'd throw a baseball, as hard as he could."
His amateur career:
1946
1. April 15, 1946 Henry Lester L-DQ3
_______________________________
(AAU Championship Tournament
Portland, Oregon August, 1946)
2. August 23, Frederic L. Ross KO 1
3. August 23, Richard Jarvis KO 1
4. August 23, Joe DeAngelis L 3
1947
(Massachusetts State Amateur Heavyweight Championship, Boston, January,
1947)
5. January 17, Jim Connolly KO1
6. Jan 17, Bob Girard L3
1948
(Massachusetts/Rhode Island Golden Gloves Tournament
Lowell, Massachusetts January 1948)
7. Jan 26, Joe Sidlaskis KO1
8. Charlie Mortimer KO 3
(Rocky wins Ma-RI Golden Gloves Tournament)
(New England Tournament of Champions, Feb 1948)
9. George McInnis TKO1
(Rocky wins New England Tournament of Champions)
(Golden Gloves All-East Coast Championships
New York, New York March 1948)
10. March 1, Coley Wallace L 3
(AAU Olympic tryouts in Boston, 1948, March)
11. Fred Fischera KO
12. George McGinnis W 3
(Rocky wins AAU Heavyweight Championship)
pdrain
does the Irish Republican Army (IRA) count in this?
icheehuahua <ichee...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:_7Sea.16915$usW1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
pdrain
Rocky Marciano had two careers, the first was a five fight career where he
lost two fights, he relaunched his career and this time went 49 unbeaten.
During his early years, he fought his own brother twice under assumed names
due to lack of opposition. He also ducked the Italian at the end of his
career and beat nobody who was significant. Moore (light heavy), Louis
(pensioner), Walcott (another free bus pass), Charles (ok so theres one,
small heavy)
In fact during the plane crash, Marciano had the top of his head sheared
off, when his brother went to identify the body he was asked 'Is this
Rocky', he replied 'Nah, our Rocky was taller than that'...oK I made that
bit up, but the rest is true.
Bobby Bearden <th...@gtcom.net> wrote in message
news:3e7c0...@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com...
Melanie Ley
>I would jump in and point out that you missed Ken Norton and Gene
>Tunney from the Marines had it been anyone else Mel, but you are one
>of the people around here who I do not second guess... Were they not
>fighters in the service?
My main source of information, prior to 1987, is past USA
Boxing history of champions only. I don't have any way of knowing who
boxed that didn't win a championship.
That's why Beardon is around - to fill in the holes. 8-)
Melanie Ley
wrote:
>Nigel Benn, Michael Carruth....there are other army boxers who did good but
>does the Irish Republican Army (IRA) count in this?
Wellll - it was actually started, but not noted, to post U.S.
military boxers. 8-)
The discussion actually started in one of the war threads,
with several people questioning the use of boxing in the military. I
have all war threads killfiled, so I extrapolated the military boxers
section and put the discussion into its own thread.
pdrain
middleweight champ ( my first club was mixed, catholic and protestants) and
he said they lived like racehorses. Running in the morning, breakfast ,
sleep, weights in the afternoon, lunch, hung aboutthe barracks, boxing in
the evening, tea and in bed really earlky, they could hear the other
squadies heading off for a drink but werent allowed to go themselves.
The mentality was, the armys fighting men had to be the best.
He was a f*cking nightmare to spar.
Melanie Ley <box...@nowhere.biz> wrote in message
news:mp0p7vcrhbntlo4vb...@4ax.com...
Bobby Bearden
pdrain <pdr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:WdXea.65$Bg1.28962@newsfep2-gui...
> Im sick of hearing abou thow good Rocky Marciano was. Here are the facts:
>
> Rocky Marciano had two careers, the first was a five fight career where he
> lost two fights, he relaunched his career and this time went 49 unbeaten.
> During his early years, he fought his own brother twice under assumed
names
> due to lack of opposition. He also ducked the Italian at the end of his
> career and beat nobody who was significant. Moore (light heavy), Louis
> (pensioner), Walcott (another free bus pass), Charles (ok so theres one,
> small heavy)
>
Where do you get your "facts"? It sounds like you make them up, just like
the "joke" at the end of your post.
Marciano didn't have two careers. He fought 12 amateur bouts, losing 3 on
points and one on DQ. As a pro he was 49-0. There is absolutely no doubt of
his pro record and the names, locations, and dates of every opponent are
documented.
He didn't fight his own brother due to lack of opposition. He went on an
exhibition tour, and his brother served as a sparring partner. His brother
used an assumed name, but everyone could tell it was his brother. These were
not fights, they were simple exhibitions. He was going to areas that could
never support a big fight, but where people wanted to see the contender in
the flesh. Such was common in the day when few people had TV sets.
What "Italian" did he duck at the end of his career?
Nobody significant? Moore, Louis, Walcott and Charles, who you list as
insignificant, are all Hall of Fame fighters, and were great fighters. Louis
was obviously at the end of the line when they fought. Walcott, though 37
(Lennox Lewis's age and in the same great shape as the current champ), was
heavyweight champion and put up a magnificent fight.
Moore was light heavyweight champion from 1952-1962 and Marciano fought him
in 1955, in the first 3 years of his 10 year reign as undisputed light
heavyweight king. Was Moore an unworthy challenger? Hardly. After Marciano
retired, Moore was selected to fight Floyd Patterson as one of the two most
deserving men of the heavyweight title. Moore fought 43 times AFTER his
fight with Marciano, losing only 3 times, including fighting Ali 7 years
after his fight with Marciano. It hardly sounds like Moore was washed up in
1955.
Moore fought 30+ fights as a heavyweight, lost only three times to
heavyweights; Marciano, Patterson, Ali. And, his weight and Marciano's were
only 1/4 pound different for their fight. He fought often at weights of 188
up to 206 pounds, more than Marciano ever weighed.
Ezzard Charles was a small heavy, but still bigger than Marciano. He also
fought a great fight against Marciano the first time. Reporters at ringside
said it was the best fight of Charles's career and Nat Fliescher said no
fighter in the world, except Marciano, could have beaten Ezzard Charles that
night.
Don Cockell was the European and British Commonwealth champion at the time
of their fight, a very legitimate challenger. He looked flabby in the fight,
but his family says Don had a glandular problem and no matter how hard he
trained, he couldn't shed the fat. Despite the way he looked, he trained
very hard for the fight and was in great condition.
You also left out Roland LaStarza, who was highly regarded in the 1950s as
the best defensive boxer of the era among heavyweights.
And of course Rex Layne, who was considered by Nat Fleischer and Ring
magazine as the next big heavyweight champion up until Marciano destroyed
him in 6 rounds. Layne was 9-5 favorite to beat Marciano going into the
fight.
In his era, Marciano was the best heavyweight in the world. A fighter can't
choose when he will be born, but if he dominates his time, then what more do
you want him to do? He was as dominant in his time as Ali, Louis, and
Dempsey were in their's. Few other heavyweight champions could make that
claim.
This is not a time of a great heavyweight division, but you can't fault
Lennox Lewis with that. He can't help that Ali, Johnson, Louis, Liston, or
Holmes aren't around now. He has the contenders he has. He can't fight them,
so he fights Grant, Golota and an old Tyson. And Marciano fought who there
was for him to fight, too.
And by the way, the three worst years for ring deaths in boxing history were
during Marciano's career. It was a time when boxing was much more brutal
than today and it took leather tough men to compete. That he was unbeaten in
a time when even championship fights could be blood baths says a lot for how
tough and how good he was.
The Arranger
Mike Weaver got his boxing start in the service, I believe. Was he a Marine?
Ruddell
> Rocky boxed while in the Army in amateur competition. His first
> amateur bout was while he was home on furlough from the army. And
> Tunney served with the Marines in France during World War II and was
> the American Expeditionary Force Light Heavyweight Champion. Georges
> Carpentier was already established as a great fighter in France when
> World War I broke out and he joined up. He was an observation pilot
> and decorated for bravery twice. Marcel Cerdan was European
> welterweight champion when World War II started, then joined the
> French navy and served till France's defeat and the disbanding of her
> navy. He then joined the Free French navy and while in that position
> engaged in Inter-Allied boxing tournaments. Tony Zale, while
> middleweight champion, joined the US Navy after Pearl Harbor and
> served for the duration of the war, freezing the title. Max Schmeling,
> after losing to Joe Louis, was forced into the military by Hitler, put
> into the paratroopers, and served as a front line soldier for the war,
> including being one of the paratroopers who dropped onto the isle of
> Crete, a battle which costs the German paratroopers a staggering 50%
> casualties. Joe Louis, Billy Conn, and Sugar Ray Robinson, among other
> top ranked boxers, boxed exhibitions all over the world for the
> military during World War II.
Weren't Louis. Conn & Robinson already pro before their military action?
Dennis
Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply
Fightscribe44
Al Cole, Army
Bobby Bearden
Ruddell <ruddell'Elle-Kabong'@accesscomm.ca> wrote in message
news:20030322182...@news.cis.dfn.de...
Yes, they were already champions. They boxed exhibitions and did other
things for the war effort, including selling War Bonds.
pdrain
>
> pdrain <pdr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:WdXea.65$Bg1.28962@newsfep2-gui...
> > Im sick of hearing abou thow good Rocky Marciano was. Here are the
facts:
> >
> > Rocky Marciano had two careers, the first was a five fight career where
he
> > lost two fights, he relaunched his career and this time went 49
unbeaten.
> > During his early years, he fought his own brother twice under assumed
> names
> > due to lack of opposition. He also ducked the Italian at the end of his
> > career and beat nobody who was significant. Moore (light heavy), Louis
> > (pensioner), Walcott (another free bus pass), Charles (ok so theres one,
> > small heavy)
> >
>
> Where do you get your "facts"? It sounds like you make them up, just like
> the "joke" at the end of your post.
> Marciano didn't have two careers. He fought 12 amateur bouts, losing 3 on
> points and one on DQ. As a pro he was 49-0. There is absolutely no doubt
of
> his pro record and the names, locations, and dates of every opponent are
> documented.
>
Firstly, there was a cover up, just as there was in Rockwell, the moon
landing, Elvis's "Death" and when Kennedy committed suicide.
> He didn't fight his own brother due to lack of opposition. He went on an
> exhibition tour, and his brother served as a sparring partner. His brother
> used an assumed name, but everyone could tell it was his brother. These
were
> not fights, they were simple exhibitions. He was going to areas that could
> never support a big fight, but where people wanted to see the contender in
> the flesh. Such was common in the day when few people had TV sets.
>
> What "Italian" did he duck at the end of his career?
I will find out, but its a fact from a very wise old sage who is nevere
wrong, next time I see him ,I'll find out.
>
> Nobody significant? Moore, Louis, Walcott and Charles, who you list as
> insignificant, are all Hall of Fame fighters, and were great fighters.
Louis
> was obviously at the end of the line when they fought. Walcott, though 37
> (Lennox Lewis's age and in the same great shape as the current champ), was
> heavyweight champion and put up a magnificent fight.
>
The Joe Louis who fought Marciano was not the Hall of famer who earned his
place in the hall. That Joe Louis would ahve eaten Marciano alive. Moore was
on the downhill slide, his weight may have went over that of marciano but it
was blubber down to bad dietary practices, he did fight on and grew stronger
at heavyweight after he fought marciano. He was a fat light heavy when he
fought marciano who had not yet grown into the weight. My point is not that
Marciano was bad, he was teak tough but he is over-rated. There was nobody
around, like today, when Marciano was on the go. Roy Jones has the style to
beat him.
> Moore was light heavyweight champion from 1952-1962 and Marciano fought
him
> in 1955, in the first 3 years of his 10 year reign as undisputed light
> heavyweight king. Was Moore an unworthy challenger? Hardly. After Marciano
> retired, Moore was selected to fight Floyd Patterson as one of the two
most
> deserving men of the heavyweight title. Moore fought 43 times AFTER his
> fight with Marciano, losing only 3 times, including fighting Ali 7 years
> after his fight with Marciano. It hardly sounds like Moore was washed up
in
> 1955.
> Moore fought 30+ fights as a heavyweight, lost only three times to
> heavyweights; Marciano, Patterson, Ali. And, his weight and Marciano's
were
> only 1/4 pound different for their fight. He fought often at weights of
188
> up to 206 pounds, more than Marciano ever weighed.
Fatboy Moore, Ive already discussed him.
>
> Ezzard Charles was a small heavy, but still bigger than Marciano. He also
> fought a great fight against Marciano the first time. Reporters at
ringside
> said it was the best fight of Charles's career and Nat Fliescher said no
> fighter in the world, except Marciano, could have beaten Ezzard Charles
that
> night.
>
No fighter at the time....but they was nobody there.
> Don Cockell was the European and British Commonwealth champion at the time
> of their fight, a very legitimate challenger. He looked flabby in the
fight,
> but his family says Don had a glandular problem and no matter how hard he
> trained, he couldn't shed the fat. Despite the way he looked, he trained
> very hard for the fight and was in great condition.
>
> You also left out Roland LaStarza, who was highly regarded in the 1950s as
> the best defensive boxer of the era among heavyweights.
>
I'll give you that one.
> And of course Rex Layne, who was considered by Nat Fleischer and Ring
> magazine as the next big heavyweight champion up until Marciano destroyed
> him in 6 rounds. Layne was 9-5 favorite to beat Marciano going into the
> fight.
>
> In his era, Marciano was the best heavyweight in the world. A fighter
can't
> choose when he will be born, but if he dominates his time, then what more
do
> you want him to do? He was as dominant in his time as Ali, Louis, and
> Dempsey were in their's. Few other heavyweight champions could make that
> claim.
>
He was in the top two alongside the Italian, at a time when there was nobody
around to put up a half decent challenge.
> This is not a time of a great heavyweight division, but you can't fault
> Lennox Lewis with that. He can't help that Ali, Johnson, Louis, Liston, or
> Holmes aren't around now. He has the contenders he has. He can't fight
them,
> so he fights Grant, Golota and an old Tyson. And Marciano fought who there
> was for him to fight, too.
>
> And by the way, the three worst years for ring deaths in boxing history
were
> during Marciano's career. It was a time when boxing was much more brutal
> than today and it took leather tough men to compete. That he was unbeaten
in
> a time when even championship fights could be blood baths a lot for how
> tough and how good he was.
>
SInce when has the boxers said, oh Im not playing anymore cos Im bleeding.
You cant hold the rule changes against todays boxers in the same way you
cant give credit to those who spilled the claret back then as having any
more metel than todays crop.
Hoyfield fought on while in a state of heart failure, just because you
couldnt see the damage he'd have been great in any era. Too good for the
likes of Marciano. Rocky struggled against some of his opponents and they
weren't the cream of the least millenium, Im just saying , he didnt dominate
the division the way the young tyson did, he struggled at times and scraped
through a couple. He was over rated.
d...@cheetah.net
>
>Bobby Bearden <th...@gtcom.net> wrote in message
>news:3e7c9...@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com...
>>
CLIPPED.
>>
>>And by the way, the three worst years for ring deaths in boxing history
>>were during Marciano's career. It was a time when boxing was much more brutal
>>than today and it took leather tough men to compete. That he was unbeaten
>>in a time when even championship fights could be blood baths a lot for how
>>tough and how good he was.
>>
>
>SInce when has the boxers said, oh Im not playing anymore cos Im bleeding.
>You cant hold the rule changes against todays boxers in the same way you
>cant give credit to those who spilled the claret back then as having any
>more metel than todays crop.
>Hoyfield fought on while in a state of heart failure, just because you
>couldnt see the damage he'd have been great in any era. Too good for the
>likes of Marciano. Rocky struggled against some of his opponents and they
>weren't the cream of the least millenium, Im just saying , he didnt dominate
>the division the way the young tyson did, he struggled at times and scraped
>through a couple. He was over rated.
>
Were you around during the era of 1949 to 1955
and saw personally the fighters, heavyweight
down to flyweights?. Did you see any of the
heavyweight fights and fighters during that
time? Just trying to get a handle for the basis
of your above statement.
DCI
Isaiah
> pdrain <pdr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:WdXea.65$Bg1.28962@newsfep2-gui...
> > Im sick of hearing abou thow good Rocky Marciano was. Here are the facts:
> >
> > Rocky Marciano had two careers, the first was a five fight career where he
> > lost two fights, he relaunched his career and this time went 49 unbeaten.
> > During his early years, he fought his own brother twice under assumed
> names
> > due to lack of opposition. He also ducked the Italian at the end of his
> > career and beat nobody who was significant. Moore (light heavy), Louis
> > (pensioner), Walcott (another free bus pass), Charles (ok so theres one,
> > small heavy)
> >
<snip>
> Nobody significant? Moore, Louis, Walcott and Charles, who you list as
> insignificant, are all Hall of Fame fighters, and were great fighters.
Moore was not a HOF-caliber heavyweight. Charles, Louis and Walcott
were, but all three were past their primes.
Louis
> was obviously at the end of the line when they fought. Walcott, though 37
> (Lennox Lewis's age and in the same great shape as the current champ), was
> heavyweight champion and put up a magnificent fight.
In fact, he looked much better than Marciano in that fight and
probably would have held on to win had he been younger.
> Moore was light heavyweight champion from 1952-1962 and Marciano fought him
> in 1955, in the first 3 years of his 10 year reign as undisputed light
> heavyweight king. Was Moore an unworthy challenger? Hardly. After Marciano
> retired, Moore was selected to fight Floyd Patterson as one of the two most
> deserving men of the heavyweight title.
And he lost decisively. That, combined with you previously expressed
low regard for Liston leaves you in an awkward position here.
Moore fought 43 times AFTER his
> fight with Marciano, losing only 3 times, including fighting Ali 7 years
> after his fight with Marciano. It hardly sounds like Moore was washed up in
> 1955.
> Moore fought 30+ fights as a heavyweight, lost only three times to
> heavyweights; Marciano, Patterson, Ali. And, his weight and Marciano's were
> only 1/4 pound different for their fight. He fought often at weights of 188
> up to 206 pounds, more than Marciano ever weighed.
>
> Ezzard Charles was a small heavy, but still bigger than Marciano.
Utterly irrelevant if the issue is the quality of Marciano's
opposition.
He also
> fought a great fight against Marciano the first time. Reporters at ringside
> said it was the best fight of Charles's career and Nat Fliescher said no
> fighter in the world, except Marciano, could have beaten Ezzard Charles that
> night.
Given that he was less than a year removed from losses to Nino Valdes
and light heavyweight Harold Johnson, I question that.
> Don Cockell was the European and British Commonwealth champion at the time
> of their fight, a very legitimate challenger. He looked flabby in the fight,
> but his family says Don had a glandular problem and no matter how hard he
> trained, he couldn't shed the fat. Despite the way he looked, he trained
> very hard for the fight and was in great condition.
Sure. It also seemed that Rocky did more damage with his forearms than
his fists in that fight.
> You also left out Roland LaStarza, who was highly regarded in the 1950s as
> the best defensive boxer of the era among heavyweights.
>
> And of course Rex Layne, who was considered by Nat Fleischer and Ring
> magazine as the next big heavyweight champion up until Marciano destroyed
> him in 6 rounds. Layne was 9-5 favorite to beat Marciano going into the
> fight.
>
> In his era, Marciano was the best heavyweight in the world. A fighter can't
> choose when he will be born, but if he dominates his time, then what more do
> you want him to do?
How about winning decisively? People often criticize the heavies of
the 90s (more than is justified in my opinion), but look at what Lewis
has done to them. Ruddock, Morisson, Golota, Holyfield I, Grant and
Tua didn't win more than six rounds combined against them and he KOd
most of them in spectacular fashion. He has mixed in some indifferent
and just plain bad performances with those great ones...
> And by the way, the three worst years for ring deaths in boxing history were
> during Marciano's career. It was a time when boxing was much more brutal
> than today and it took leather tough men to compete. That he was unbeaten in
> a time when even championship fights could be blood baths says a lot for how
> tough and how good he was.
True. To be honest, Marciano is one of my very favorite fighters to
watch and one of three heavyweights who I think were also great
fighters P4P. I just think it's ridiculous to rank him up with Ali,
Louis and Lewis in absolute terms.
-Isaiah
Ducking for cover...
Ivan Weiss
>
> The Joe Louis who fought Marciano was not the Hall of famer who earned his
> place in the hall. That Joe Louis would ahve eaten Marciano alive. Moore
was
> on the downhill slide, his weight may have went over that of marciano but
it
> was blubber down to bad dietary practices, he did fight on and grew
stronger
> at heavyweight after he fought marciano. He was a fat light heavy when he
> fought marciano who had not yet grown into the weight. My point is not
that
> Marciano was bad, he was teak tough but he is over-rated. There was nobody
> around, like today, when Marciano was on the go. Roy Jones has the style
to
> beat him.
Roy Jones beat Marciano? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! He wouldn't even get in the ring
with the Rock. You think the Rock would have stood there like a statue for
12 or 15 rounds without pulling the trigger like that klutz Ruiz did?
Marciano threw 75-80 punches per round, and if he didn;t land clean shots to
the head or the body, he landed on the arms or shoulders, till he broke his
opponents down. Jones has never fought anyone anywhere near that good, at
any level. If Marciano is overrated, just what does that make Jones?
--
Ivan Weiss
Vashon WA http://www.baseball116.com
Proud to sponsor the Smead Jolley, Zeke Bonura, Dale Alexander,
and Bob Fothergill pages at www.baseball-reference.com
light-heavy
> Were you around during the era of 1949 to 1955
> and saw personally the fighters, heavyweight
> down to flyweights?. Did you see any of the
> heavyweight fights and fighters during that
> time? Just trying to get a handle for the basis
> of your above statement.
>
> DCI
Well no, if I was that old I probably would be afraid of a computer.
I know fighters who were though, Freddy Gilroy, Johnny Caldwell, and a
load of coaches who were amateurs around that time, most notably Jim
McCourt, (450 fights, lost 13, olympic bronze).
Ive seen fights on tape and read a fair bit. All Im saying is that
fighters todays are just as brave but the rules have changed.
Only last night Jim Watt (former Lightweight champ 1981) described
Wayne McCulloughs challenge as the bravest thing he'd ever seen. If
wayne had needed 100 stitches, he'd have fought on, Watt said
McCullough knew from round two he wasnt going to win, but would he
back down, NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Criminally stupid not to change tactics
but I cant critisize his heart.
Bobby Bearden
Isaiah <isaiah...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dae06db6.03032...@posting.google.com...
> "Bobby Bearden" <th...@gtcom.net> wrote in message
news:<3e7c9...@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com>...
> > pdrain <pdr...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:WdXea.65$Bg1.28962@newsfep2-gui...
> > > Im sick of hearing abou thow good Rocky Marciano was. Here are the
facts:
> > >
> > > Rocky Marciano had two careers, the first was a five fight career
where he
> > > lost two fights, he relaunched his career and this time went 49
unbeaten.
> > > During his early years, he fought his own brother twice under assumed
> > names
> > > due to lack of opposition. He also ducked the Italian at the end of
his
> > > career and beat nobody who was significant. Moore (light heavy), Louis
> > > (pensioner), Walcott (another free bus pass), Charles (ok so theres
one,
> > > small heavy)
> > >
>
> <snip>
>
> > Nobody significant? Moore, Louis, Walcott and Charles, who you list as
> > insignificant, are all Hall of Fame fighters, and were great fighters.
>
>
> Moore was not a HOF-caliber heavyweight. Charles, Louis and Walcott
> were, but all three were past their primes.
>
That's debateable. Moore fought almost exclusively against Top Ten ranked
heavyweights, and he beat every one of them. He only lost to the heavyweight
champion (Marciano) and two future heavyweight champions (Patterson and
Ali). Consider that he did this while successfully defending his light
heavyweight crown against the likes of Joey Maxim, Harold Johnson, Bobo
Olson and Yvon Durelle and you have one great fighter.
>
> Louis
> > was obviously at the end of the line when they fought. Walcott, though
37
> > (Lennox Lewis's age and in the same great shape as the current champ),
was
> > heavyweight champion and put up a magnificent fight.
>
>
> In fact, he looked much better than Marciano in that fight and
> probably would have held on to win had he been younger.
>
Maybe. But Walcott seemed to fight better in his later years, as in his
first fight with Joe Louis, which he won but was cheated by the judges, and
his two comeback wins against Ezzard Charles after losing twice to him.
It's my opinion that Walcott in his fights with Charles, Louis, and
Marciano, looked every bit as good a Lennox Lewis. He was a far better
fighter than he ever gets credit for being.
>
> > Moore was light heavyweight champion from 1952-1962 and Marciano fought
him
> > in 1955, in the first 3 years of his 10 year reign as undisputed light
> > heavyweight king. Was Moore an unworthy challenger? Hardly. After
Marciano
> > retired, Moore was selected to fight Floyd Patterson as one of the two
most
> > deserving men of the heavyweight title.
>
>
> And he lost decisively. That, combined with you previously expressed
> low regard for Liston leaves you in an awkward position here.
>
How so? Liston never fought Moore, though I suspect he'd have beaten him by
the time their paths would have crossed. Moore said he overtrained badly for
Patterson. I think he also overfought. Prior to fighting Marciano, Moore
fought only two other times that year, beating Nino Valdez and Bobo Olson.
Prior to fighting Patterson the following year, he fought 11 times in 9
months.
>
> Moore fought 43 times AFTER his
> > fight with Marciano, losing only 3 times, including fighting Ali 7 years
> > after his fight with Marciano. It hardly sounds like Moore was washed up
in
> > 1955.
> > Moore fought 30+ fights as a heavyweight, lost only three times to
> > heavyweights; Marciano, Patterson, Ali. And, his weight and Marciano's
were
> > only 1/4 pound different for their fight. He fought often at weights of
188
> > up to 206 pounds, more than Marciano ever weighed.
> >
> > Ezzard Charles was a small heavy, but still bigger than Marciano.
>
>
> Utterly irrelevant if the issue is the quality of Marciano's
> opposition.
>
Not irrelevant at all, given the post I was responding to. The poster stated
that Charles couldn't be counted as a significant win because he was a small
heavyweight. I pointed out that he was a bigger heavyweight than Marciano.
Relevant.
>
> He also
> > fought a great fight against Marciano the first time. Reporters at
ringside
> > said it was the best fight of Charles's career and Nat Fliescher said no
> > fighter in the world, except Marciano, could have beaten Ezzard Charles
that
> > night.
>
>
> Given that he was less than a year removed from losses to Nino Valdes
> and light heavyweight Harold Johnson, I question that.
>
Decision losses against very good fighters, especially Johnson. Also, he had
KO'd Bob Satterfield prior to the Marciano fight, and everyone rates
Satterfield as one tough fighter.
>
> > Don Cockell was the European and British Commonwealth champion at the
time
> > of their fight, a very legitimate challenger. He looked flabby in the
fight,
> > but his family says Don had a glandular problem and no matter how hard
he
> > trained, he couldn't shed the fat. Despite the way he looked, he trained
> > very hard for the fight and was in great condition.
>
>
> Sure. It also seemed that Rocky did more damage with his forearms than
> his fists in that fight.
>
That's true. It's the sloppiest win of any I've ever seen footage of for
Marciano. He said he overtrained because the press had made statements that
he'd lost his punch, that Cockell was either too tough to KO or a slob, take
your pick. That his timing was way off is apparent in the film. It was a
dirty, ugly fight.
>
> > You also left out Roland LaStarza, who was highly regarded in the 1950s
as
> > the best defensive boxer of the era among heavyweights.
> >
> > And of course Rex Layne, who was considered by Nat Fleischer and Ring
> > magazine as the next big heavyweight champion up until Marciano
destroyed
> > him in 6 rounds. Layne was 9-5 favorite to beat Marciano going into the
> > fight.
> >
> > In his era, Marciano was the best heavyweight in the world. A fighter
can't
> > choose when he will be born, but if he dominates his time, then what
more do
> > you want him to do?
>
>
> How about winning decisively? People often criticize the heavies of
> the 90s (more than is justified in my opinion), but look at what Lewis
> has done to them. Ruddock, Morisson, Golota, Holyfield I, Grant and
> Tua didn't win more than six rounds combined against them and he KOd
> most of them in spectacular fashion. He has mixed in some indifferent
> and just plain bad performances with those great ones...
>
What Marciano defense wasn't decisive? In fact, the only close fight of his
career was the first LaStarza fight, which was very close indeed. In the
rematch he ruined LaStarza as a fighter.
>
> > And by the way, the three worst years for ring deaths in boxing history
were
> > during Marciano's career. It was a time when boxing was much more brutal
> > than today and it took leather tough men to compete. That he was
unbeaten in
> > a time when even championship fights could be blood baths says a lot for
how
> > tough and how good he was.
>
>
> True. To be honest, Marciano is one of my very favorite fighters to
> watch and one of three heavyweights who I think were also great
> fighters P4P. I just think it's ridiculous to rank him up with Ali,
> Louis and Lewis in absolute terms.
>
>
> -Isaiah
> Ducking for cover...
I don't understand your meaning? If you rate him as one of the 3 greatest
heavyweights in the P4P fighter category, why would you say it's ridiculous
to rank him with Ali, Louis, and Lewis in absolute terms? Actually, the only
thing I find ridiculous in that is putting Lewis in with Ali and Louis. He
really doesn't belong with them in any regard. One or the other of them tops
every single Top Ten greatest heavyweights list I've ever seen, and the
other is usually right behind.
Isaiah
> > > Nobody significant? Moore, Louis, Walcott and Charles, who you list as
> > > insignificant, are all Hall of Fame fighters, and were great fighters.
> >
> >
> > Moore was not a HOF-caliber heavyweight. Charles, Louis and Walcott
> > were, but all three were past their primes.
> >
>
> That's debateable. Moore fought almost exclusively against Top Ten ranked
> heavyweights, and he beat every one of them. He only lost to the heavyweight
> champion (Marciano) and two future heavyweight champions (Patterson and
> Ali).
Well, there you go. He lost badly when he fought A-level heavies.
Consider that he did this while successfully defending his light
> heavyweight crown against the likes of Joey Maxim, Harold Johnson, Bobo
> Olson and Yvon Durelle and you have one great fighter.
But not a great heavyweight.
> > Louis
> > > was obviously at the end of the line when they fought. Walcott, though
> 37
> > > (Lennox Lewis's age and in the same great shape as the current champ),
> was
> > > heavyweight champion and put up a magnificent fight.
> >
> >
> > In fact, he looked much better than Marciano in that fight and
> > probably would have held on to win had he been younger.
> >
>
> Maybe. But Walcott seemed to fight better in his later years, as in his
> first fight with Joe Louis, which he won but was cheated by the judges, and
> his two comeback wins against Ezzard Charles after losing twice to him.
The first Louis fight was Walcott at his best.
> It's my opinion that Walcott in his fights with Charles, Louis, and
> Marciano, looked every bit as good a Lennox Lewis. He was a far better
> fighter than he ever gets credit for being.
Oh my lord. Walcott was impressive, but no way was he as good as
Lennox Lewis! Lewis was a dominant champion with only two fluke
losses, including one when he was past his prime to balance against
half a dozen dominating wins over fighters considered the best or
second best in the world at the time of the fights. Walcott? I'm sure
you know his record.
> > > Moore was light heavyweight champion from 1952-1962 and Marciano fought
> him
> > > in 1955, in the first 3 years of his 10 year reign as undisputed light
> > > heavyweight king. Was Moore an unworthy challenger? Hardly. After
> Marciano
> > > retired, Moore was selected to fight Floyd Patterson as one of the two
> most
> > > deserving men of the heavyweight title.
> >
> >
> > And he lost decisively. That, combined with you previously expressed
> > low regard for Liston leaves you in an awkward position here.
> >
>
> How so?
Liston>Patterson>Moore. I know, I know. I'm forgetting the tritest of
boxing saws. Still, if Liston wasn't a great heavyweight, there's no
way Moore was.
> > Moore fought 43 times AFTER his
> > > fight with Marciano, losing only 3 times, including fighting Ali 7 years
> > > after his fight with Marciano. It hardly sounds like Moore was washed up
> in
> > > 1955.
> > > Moore fought 30+ fights as a heavyweight, lost only three times to
> > > heavyweights; Marciano, Patterson, Ali. And, his weight and Marciano's
> were
> > > only 1/4 pound different for their fight. He fought often at weights of
> 188
> > > up to 206 pounds, more than Marciano ever weighed.
> > >
> > > Ezzard Charles was a small heavy, but still bigger than Marciano.
> >
> >
> > Utterly irrelevant if the issue is the quality of Marciano's
> > opposition.
> >
>
> Not irrelevant at all, given the post I was responding to. The poster stated
> that Charles couldn't be counted as a significant win because he was a small
> heavyweight. I pointed out that he was a bigger heavyweight than Marciano.
> Relevant.
I think you're misunderstanding something here. The guy said that
Charles was small. He is. Marciano's size has nothing at all to do
with whether Charles was small.
> > He also
> > > fought a great fight against Marciano the first time. Reporters at
> ringside
> > > said it was the best fight of Charles's career and Nat Fliescher said no
> > > fighter in the world, except Marciano, could have beaten Ezzard Charles
> that
> > > night.
> >
> >
> > Given that he was less than a year removed from losses to Nino Valdes
> > and light heavyweight Harold Johnson, I question that.
> >
>
> Decision losses against very good fighters, especially Johnson. Also, he had
> KO'd Bob Satterfield prior to the Marciano fight, and everyone rates
> Satterfield as one tough fighter.
I question the description of Valdes as "very good." Johnson was a
good *light heavyweight*. Satterfield was a hell of a puncher and an
exciting fighter. Any heavyweight contender should have been able to
beat him and most did.
> > > In his era, Marciano was the best heavyweight in the world. A fighter
> can't
> > > choose when he will be born, but if he dominates his time, then what
> more do
> > > you want him to do?
> >
> >
> > How about winning decisively? People often criticize the heavies of
> > the 90s (more than is justified in my opinion), but look at what Lewis
> > has done to them. Ruddock, Morisson, Golota, Holyfield I, Grant and
> > Tua didn't win more than six rounds combined against them and he KOd
> > most of them in spectacular fashion. He has mixed in some indifferent
> > and just plain bad performances with those great ones...
> >
>
> What Marciano defense wasn't decisive? In fact, the only close fight of his
> career was the first LaStarza fight, which was very close indeed. In the
> rematch he ruined LaStarza as a fighter.
Walcott was dominating before the KO. Charles was dominating before
fading after the sixth. A younger Charles or Walcott may have won.
> > > And by the way, the three worst years for ring deaths in boxing history
> were
> > > during Marciano's career. It was a time when boxing was much more brutal
> > > than today and it took leather tough men to compete. That he was
> unbeaten in
> > > a time when even championship fights could be blood baths says a lot for
> how
> > > tough and how good he was.
> >
> >
> > True. To be honest, Marciano is one of my very favorite fighters to
> > watch and one of three heavyweights who I think were also great
> > fighters P4P. I just think it's ridiculous to rank him up with Ali,
> > Louis and Lewis in absolute terms.
> >
> >
> > -Isaiah
> > Ducking for cover...
>
> I don't understand your meaning? If you rate him as one of the 3 greatest
> heavyweights in the P4P fighter category, why would you say it's ridiculous
> to rank him with Ali, Louis, and Lewis in absolute terms?
For the same reason it would be ridiculous to rank Ricardo Lopez with
them even though he's every bit as skilled as they are.
Actually, the only
> thing I find ridiculous in that is putting Lewis in with Ali and Louis. He
> really doesn't belong with them in any regard. One or the other of them tops
> every single Top Ten greatest heavyweights list I've ever seen, and the
> other is usually right behind.
In 30 years, Lewis may well top many heavyweight lists. Max Kellerman
recently suggested that he would be the favorite over any heavyweight
ever. I know you all don't think much of Max, but there's one. It
seems to me that Lewis inspires a much greater than usual animosity
among boxing fans and as the memory of the man fades, all we'll have
to judge him by will be his performances, which can stand with anyone.
Another thing is, people always say that the current batch of heavies
is the worst ever. In 30 years, Michael Grant may be more highly
regarded than Jimmy Young or Roland LaStarza. He probably would have
beaten either of them.
Here's classic RSB from 1995:
In article <45e1s7$f...@due.unit.no> uk...@fyskjemi.kjemi.unit.no
writes:
>In article <johncoby-071...@dialupline41.ghgcorp.com>,
>
>Based on the above, I hereby propose the Lennox algorithm. The
Lennox
>algorithm goes as follows:
Good algorithm! Here's a few suggested changes/additions:
0. Every top heavyweight aside from Holyfield and Ruddock avoid
Lewis with a load of lame excuses.
1. A match between Lennox Lewis and opponent X is announced.
2. Many RSB'ers fancy X's chances against Lewis, never tiring of
reminding us about Oliver Mcall.
3. X enters the ring to cheers.
4. Lennox enters the ring to boos and hisses.
5. Lennox wins.
6. A silent crowd watches as Lennox leaves the ring.
7. Most RSB'ers who picked X make excuses for him and/or whine about
how this version of X "just wasn't the same."
8. Many RSB'ers write Lewis off and demands a REAL opponent next time.
9. Lewis, Maloney and Stewart go out looking for the next opponent.
10. Go to 0.
<end>
-Isaiah