CUE HYPE *The Myth behind the MASTERS*
Jimbo Ct
me. You see I have been collecting cues since 1988, now that's not a long time
for some, but I bet it's longer then most. I have gone to many shows. (BCA,
Valley Forge, Baltimore, US Open, and Gallery of American Cue Art.) Just to
name a few. At these shows I met some great people, and we became friends. I
also thought I learned a few things about cues. I spent many hours in the shops
of cuemakers watching and learning. I feel I have a good Idea of the work that
goes into some of these masterpieces. Apparently I was Wrong, You see over the
past week I got into a disagreement with a fellow RSBer who's name I will omit
. He educated me. For years I thought people like Thomas Wayne, Bill Schick,
Tim Scruggs, Ernie Gutierrez, South West, Richard Black, Bill Stroud ,and Mike
Bender Innovated and brought the ART of building a cue to new levels. I put
some of these guys on a higher plain. I thought they were a touch better then
some of the fly by night guys who started to pop up in the 90's and tried to
charge crazy money for cues that they assembled either by computer or prefab
pieces. I also made the mistake of going by a person's reputation when I picked
out a cue. Well now I will educate all of you RSBers. You see all of the people
I mentioned, and all of the cues they build are all Hype. Turns out for all
these years people weren't smart enough to figure this out. You see there are a
few guys out there that make cues as good as or better then all the names
listed and they don't charge the same prices. "Who JIM?" you might ask. Well,
the names are Nova cues and Rus Espritu , From what I can tell, Rus Espritu
cues use the best wood ever, no other cue maker can get this great wood. Again
I just learned this or I would have spoken up sooner. The real shocker is that
Nova turns out the finish on these babies far better then anyone else's, and he
has as good as or better wood then all the people I listed. His shafts are
better, and his inlay work is just as good as Mike Bender's ( I use Mike Bender
because IMO he has some of the best inlay work I have ever seen, of course this
was before I found the light) The thing that really seals the deal is the price
you see Nova cues are 1/3 the cost of any of the cues I listed, and the hit
better then a South West. Again I apologize I just found this out or I would
have told all of you sooner. I like many believed the HYPE as this person put
it, I have admitted my stupidity and am in counseling to try and move on with
my life now. I only hope I can. You may ask me how I know this person who gave
me this info knows what he is talking about. Well it turns out he is very well
educated (I know this because his grammar and spelling are much better then
mine.) and he has been in the cue business for years now, at least 5 as far as
I can tell . I'm just glad I found out before I make anymore mistakes.
Thanx for your time I hope I helped JIM <
----- Only buying Nova from now on.
P.S. I'd like to hear other opinions on this, even if you are wrong.
Mikeymc12
than 75% of the cues I've hit with. but that's my opinion.. by the way. I've
never seen any Nova cues. how much do they go for?
Ken Bour
[SNIP]
>I just learned this or I would have spoken up sooner.
>Again I apologize I just found this out or I would
>have told all of you sooner. I like many believed the HYPE as this person
put
>it, I have admitted my stupidity and am in counseling to try and move on
with
>my life now. I only hope I can. You may ask me how I know this person who
gave
>me this info knows what he is talking about. Well it turns out he is very
well
>educated (I know this because his grammar and spelling are much better then
>mine.) and he has been in the cue business for years now, at least 5 as far
as
>I can tell . I'm just glad I found out before I make anymore mistakes.
I can't tell if this is a put-on either, but, hey, I'll take the bait...
Why not enlighten us further and provide the name of this well-educated
individual (with better grammar and spelling!) who helped you see the light?
Then, we can all be dazzled by his brilliance. You see, it would be hard to
take YOUR word for it -- since you exhibit such inferior spelling and
grammar. I'm sure you can understand our reluctance...
--
Ken Bour
Sterling, VA
http://www.erols.com/kbour
Ed Mercier
Billiard Congress of Wisconsin and for the typical price range of their lower end
cues (~$500) you are probably not going to find finer cues anywhere.
The rest of this I have no comment on.
Jimbo Ct wrote:
> better then a South West. Again I apologize I just found this out or I would
> have told all of you sooner. I like many believed the HYPE as this person put
> it, I have admitted my stupidity and am in counseling to try and move on with
> my life now. I only hope I can. You may ask me how I know this person who gave
> me this info knows what he is talking about. Well it turns out he is very well
> educated (I know this because his grammar and spelling are much better then
> mine.) and he has been in the cue business for years now, at least 5 as far as
> I can tell . I'm just glad I found out before I make anymore mistakes.
>
PoolCue
omegadeath
sick and twisted pool cult.
John Walkup
BTW, who typed your post for you? It actually resembled English
this time.
Anyone care to guess to whom he was referring? :)
--
**********************************************************************
John Walkup
The Cue Gallery (http://www.cuegallery.com)
Authorized Dealer:
Verl Horn Custom Cues Espiritu Custom Cues
Norman, OK.
John Walkup
>
> It sounds to me like Jimbo Ct has been abducted and brainwashed by some
> sick and twisted pool cult.
>
> Jimbo Ct wrote:
> >
> > You see there are a
> > few guys out there that make cues as good as or better then all the names
> > listed and they don't charge the same prices. "Who JIM?" you might ask. Well,
> > the names are Nova cues and Rus Espritu , From what I can tell, Rus Espritu
[Amazing. He blew the spelling on both the first and last name.]
> > cues use the best wood ever, no other cue maker can get this great wood.
As usual, Jimbo completely distorted my argument. I never said the
above.
> > Again
> > I just learned this or I would have spoken up sooner. The real shocker is that
> > Nova turns out the finish on these babies far better then anyone else's, and he
> > has as good as or better wood then all the people I listed.
Again, a pure distortion.
> > His shafts are
> > better, and his inlay work is just as good as Mike Bender's ( I use Mike Bender
> > because IMO he has some of the best inlay work I have ever seen, of course this
> > was before I found the light)
Jimbo completely blows this argument. We were talking about the
ARTISTIC aspects
of inlay work, not how intricate the inlays were. Art, not
craftsmanship. And
since the cues we were discussing both had just an ensemble of geometric
shapes
I failed to see the *artistic* difference between the cues.
> > The thing that really seals the deal is the price
> > you see Nova cues are 1/3 the cost of any of the cues I listed, and the hit
> > better then a South West.
We both agreed that hit is a personal thing. I said that I preferred
the hit of
my Nova over my South West, but that others may disagree. The South
West has a
very good hit, so I am not knocking it.
BTW, since almost everyone here knows I am a Russ Espiritu dealer then
your post is divulging private email conversation. I would suggest that
in the future that you fight your own fights. And if you want to drag
this
out in front of RSB in an effort to get allies I would suggest you
provide
direct quotes, not distortions of my arguments.
Bai n Li
a high run of four racks of nine-ball. I live and play in Las Vegas, by way of
introduction. I just wanted to jump in here. I hope no one will get mad.
This is my first post to a newgroup and I haven't really read the rest of the
posts, but, what the hell.
I have used many of the cues Jimbo mentioned. Here are my opinions. Tim
Scruggs makes a great cue. Maybe overpriced for what it is, but so what, the
guy can get the money and he does great work. Ernie Gutierrez (Gina Cue) are
the most unusual and nice looking cues. They play OK but are not to my taste.
South West is a legend. You either like them or you don't, because the shaft
is so stiff. I like them. Thomas Wayne makes a great looking cue, but they
hit like shit, in my opinion. A lot of that is personal preference of course
but Waynes cues to me hit like a rock. They have no "feel" or "life." Mike
Bender and Bill Schick I don't really know.
Anyway. That's just one persons opinion.
Andrew Fenton
CSmith4738
>>>Well, the names are Nova cues and Rus Espritu , From what I can tell, Rus
John Walkup wrote:
>[Amazing. He blew the spelling on both the first and last name.]
Sure, but it could have been worse. He could have written Esburitto.
>Jimbo completely blows this argument. We were talking about the ARTISTIC
aspects
of inlay work, not how intricate the inlays were. Art, not craftsmanship. And
since the cues we were discussing both had just an ensemble of geometric
shapesI failed to see the *artistic* difference between the cues.>
An ensemble of geometric shapes? I agree with you, art is not an ensemble of
geometrical shapes. Art is how those geometrical shapes are interpreted by the
eye and imagination of the craftsman and then portrayed by the skill of his
hands. If all you see is geometrical shapes, then you have missed the
craftsman's artistic interpretation.
>And if you want to drag this out in front of RSB in an effort to get allies I
would suggest you
provide direct quotes, not distortions of my arguments.
If that is matter of fact, then why don't you post the Emails you sent JimboCT?
Now that the argument IS in the RSB, why don't you let the readers decide for
themselves?
Clark Smith
Clark Custom Cues
Tacoma, WA
CSmith4738
Jimbo Ct
you volunteered that info.... I would have spelled Russ Espittu's name right
if I was trying to sell them, and make a living off his cues. John you insult
everyone's ARTISTIC ability, please show me where Nova's work is superior? I
think I missed it. I hate to quote another RSBer but his inlays look like they
were installed with the aid of a shovel.
JIM <---Thinks Sarcasm is great.
Jim Barr
> Thomas Wayne makes a great looking cue, but they
> hit like shit, in my opinion. A lot of that is personal preference of course
> but Waynes cues to me hit like a rock. They have no "feel" or "life."
There is a cuemaker in this group named Thomas Wayne,
When he replies to message, you'll also think he's insane.
You say Thomas Wayne's cues hit like a rock,
Funny you should pick, his cues to knock.
In your opinion his cues have no "feel" or "life',
Could it be possible, that he just carves them with a knife.
You also claim his cues hit like shit,
I doubt it'll bother him, one little bit.
:-) :-O :-( ;-) :o) ;^) :^( :^O
Jim Barr
sam
expensive. Sincerely, Sam
CSmith4738 wrote in message
<19981127173105...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
>Houston, we have a problem.
sam
Jim Barr wrote in message <365F35...@sound.net>...
Smorgass Bored
I thought that I would throw this contribution into the mix.. Jimbo's
Big goal in rsb (other than to spell words like makeing,takeing and
haveing correctly) is to create the largest furor and the LONGEST thread
and he will use 'Any' means to accomplish this including posting under
4-6 different names in a thread. Play with him at your own risk.... IMO
And,now the evidence (drumroll please----ah,make it TAPS )
*note:date of e-mail
Message From: tuffg...@aol.com (Tuffguyy71) Date: Wed, Oct 14,
1998, 9:36am (EST+5) To: Smorga...@webtv.net Subject: Re: Making a
list of All the current cue makers....
DAMN you to hell smorg!!!!
Weeks ago I set out with a mission in mind, it was to make a thread
with the most posts, I knew I'd have to piss some people off in the
progress but this was big. Bigger then makeing friends. so I came up
with" opinions and the top 5" well it was going very nice, I now have
62(sure I sent 34 myself but so what) on that thread but some butt head
came along and asked a stupid question about current Cue makkers and a
list. well first of all you stole that Idea from my thread and now you
have 67 . EWWWWWWWW I get soooooo mad I could just pinch you. well Doug
your the butt head and I am pissed. By the way this is JIMBOCT from
AOL so don't respond to this screename please. and I am still laughin my
ass off with that post about your wife Barbracnid HE HE HE HE HE
(End El Stupido's e-mail)
I have asked and told this asswipe NOT to e-mail me.I have threatened to
turn him in to AOL,but to no avail.. I still get e-mail from him and he
just refuses to cease & desist. You cannot play with or argue with a
dumbass nitwit like JimboCT,you can't win and you can't scrape the stain
& smell off the bottom of your shoe.
Doug W.
~>*)))>< Big fish eat Little fish ><(((*<~
John Walkup
>
> >BTW, since almost everyone here knows I am a Russ Espiritu dealer then
> >your post is divulging private email conversation.
>
> specifically ask the person you sent it to not to share it, and even then
> it's questionable.
I didn't say I was going to sue him, only that he didn't
observe proper netiquette.
> MULLY
John Walkup
>
> >Jimbo completely blows this argument. We were talking about the ARTISTIC
> aspects
> of inlay work, not how intricate the inlays were. Art, not craftsmanship. And
> since the cues we were discussing both had just an ensemble of geometric
> shapesI failed to see the *artistic* difference between the cues.>
>
> An ensemble of geometric shapes? I agree with you, art is not an ensemble of
> geometrical shapes. Art is how those geometrical shapes are interpreted by the
> eye and imagination of the craftsman and then portrayed by the skill of his
> hands. If all you see is geometrical shapes, then you have missed the
> craftsman's artistic interpretation.
At Fresno State we had some modern art sprinkled around campus. One of
the
"sculptures" was a 4X4 planted into the ground and painted orange. They
used the same reasoning. (And probably charged a bundle.)
Again, I find many of the choices cuemakers use for their designs
aesthetically pleasing. Some of the colors and shapes work well
together, and their choice of materials is often top-notch, with the
textures meshing perfectly. But that isn't art. That is just good
taste.
At least, that is how I view it.
> >And if you want to drag this out in front of RSB in an effort to get allies I
> would suggest you
> provide direct quotes, not distortions of my arguments.
>
> If that is matter of fact, then why don't you post the Emails you sent JimboCT?
> Now that the argument IS in the RSB, why don't you let the readers decide for
> themselves?
I'll consider it.
John Walkup
>
> Hey John don't get a guilty conscious I never mentioned your name, but since
> you volunteered that info....
Anyone over the age of 10 can see through this one. You knew damn well
that people would know who you were talking about. Not that I care,
but quit insulting our intelligence. You're not as innocent as you
are trying to sound.
> I would have spelled Russ Espittu's name right
> if I was trying to sell them, and make a living off his cues.
You would have spelled it correctly if you knew how to spell.
> John you insult
> everyone's ARTISTIC ability, please show me where Nova's work is superior?
Again, I never said any such thing. I have explained this to you
many times. But you have almost zero reading comprehension.
> I think I missed it. I hate to quote another RSBer but his inlays look like they
> were installed with the aid of a shovel.
So who is doing the insulting of someone else's craftsmanship now?
Just to clear the air, not once did I ever insult or even hint at
insulting
the craftsmanship of any of the top cuemakers that Jimbo was referring
to.
But obviously Jimbo thinks he needs to put down the cue making ability
of
Russ Espiritu and Nubs Wagner in order to bolster the reputations of his
favorite cuemakers. I think such behavior is unnecessary and repulsive.
Frankly, this conversation should have stayed private.
John Walkup
>
> I didn't post this to insult any one-cue maker I don't own a Nova and have
> nothing against Esprittu cues.
What was it? Something about shovels?
This reminds me of a famous exchange in a movie.
"I am just an innocent farmer!"
"Innocent farmer, heh? Do you recognize this man?"
(Unfolds Most Wanted poster)
"Me?"
"Yeah, it's YOU."
Deno J. Andrews
OK now wait a minute...I have come to the conclusion that good hitting
cues hit well and bad hitting cues hit not as well. This is in
conclusion to a test of good and bad hitting cues over a number of years
under strict government supervision. Sorry.
Deno :)
Deno J. Andrews
> Hmmm, once you hit that send button it's out of your hands. Unless you
> specifically ask the person you sent it to not to share it, and even then
> it's questionable.
You are correct. If you send someone an email, it is their property to
do with what they want. They can show it or give it to anyone. That's
why we should all be nice in public and in private emails...cause you
never know what may surface :( !
Deno J. Andrews
John Walkup
>
> You are a sour asshole...
Eeeeeeuuuuuuuwwww! That is disgusting! Please don't tell us how
you came to know this.
> I am still shocked that J Walkup hasn't replied to tell us all
> how Nova cues are much better then everyone else's.
I am not surprised that you cannot provide an exact quote of anything I
said.
Look up the word "strawman" in a dictionary.
I mean this is a free shot
> for you to push your cues, and Website. That's the only reason you post to
> every thread isn't it John ????
No. And if you don't believe me, check out my posting activity before
I began selling cues.
I was already a well-known commodity in RSB when I sold my first cue.
sam
recipient, I do not feel that a private conversation between E-mailers
should EVER become public. Many people are asked opinions of products,
techniques, or even people, on the QT. I receive little to no E-mail (thank
God) but would not want it published if I thought I was giving my honest
opinion on the question but would prefer it not be made public. Example: I
am not a Meucci fan. It is simply an IMO. I have played with them and can
do better with other sticks. If someone E-mailed me and asked my opinion,
I would prefer they respect my privacy. You are right. If you don't trust
the E-mailer, don't respond. Sincerely, Sam
Deno J. Andrews wrote in message <365F85...@ix.netcom.com>...
MULLY
I thought it was funnier and a tad bit more insulting the way I edited it
for you. That's my opinion.
MULLY <------paying Jimbo back for the recent slams :+)
MULLY
John Walkup wrote in message <365EDB...@telepath.com>...
>It didn't work, did it Jimbo? LOL!
>
>BTW, who typed your post for you? It actually resembled English
>this time.
<cough> wasn't me. Well part of it was...he went back and fucked it up.
hehe!!
>Anyone care to guess to whom he was referring? :)
Guy Lombardo?
MULLY
MULLY
See, man! If you had left my shit in there it would have beeb obvious.
<slaps forehead>
MULLY
MULLY
>your post is divulging private email conversation.
Hmmm, once you hit that send button it's out of your hands. Unless you
specifically ask the person you sent it to not to share it, and even then
it's questionable.
MULLY
MULLY
>hit like shit, in my opinion.
WOW!!! I can't wait to see the reply to this one.
MULLY
4th of July in November
MULLY
course
>but Waynes cues to me hit like a rock
You know, this one is so good that I could reply to it all night. Man, talk
about reasons a newbie should lurk a few days before jumping into the
limelight.
MULLY
fuck, I'm glad I was here to see this one.
fred....@nypro.com
bai...@aol.comroc (Bai n Li) wrote:
> Thomas Wayne makes a great looking cue, but they
> hit like shit, in my opinion.
As I read this sentence, I gripped my seat as I felt that odd spine tingling
sensation, like nails scratching the blackboard. I may have even
screeched. Something wicked this way comes.
--
Regards,
Fred Agnir
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
fred....@nypro.com
mike...@aol.comPEPE (Mikeymc12) wrote:
> hey. it depends on how you look at it. I mean, I like my cobra stick better
> than 75% of the cues I've hit with. but that's my opinion.. by the way. I've
> never seen any Nova cues. how much do they go for?
>
>
Either you and I are talking about different kinds of cobras, or Cobra got
better, or your "taste" in hit is about 180 degrees from mine. My Cobra,
which I got as part of a package deal, hits like dead rock. (Comma splice,
sorry)
Jimbo Ct
HIT. The HIT of a cue is 100% personal preference. I might like one cue's HIT
while you may feel it hits like a rock. Some people like to play with a rock.
The Hit wasn't an issue in this thread and it's very difficult to push your
ideals on someone else. The point of this thread was to show not TW's insanity
but J Walkup's, He believes a Nova cue to be "as good as or better then" all of
the cues I mentioned. Many would say just ignore him, he is just a whore trying
to peddle his goods. I am sure this is the truth, but he (at least privately)
put up this fight. After many attempts to have him give proof of his argument,
all he came up with was personal insults about my spelling. While I enjoy a
nice insult, his lacked any originality. They were of course much better then
his argument on cues, so I see why he would try to bring that up and ignore the
cue issue. So please John, now that you put your name to this post please help
us all and explain how the Nova cue is better then all the rest, artistically,
and structurally?? Also tell everyone how boring Schicks, and Ginacues are. (I
really love that one) I can see why you're so mad John because this proves to
all that didn't know already what a BOOB you are.
JIM <-----Thinks JW is a narrow minded, misinformed BOOB!!!
Jimbo Ct
you were normal. Since I have learned better. You are a sour asshole you are
mad cause someone pointed out that they thought your cue was poor quality. You
have since resorted to threats and promises of bodily harm. I have never posted
to this group under different names nor have I made threats to have people
banned or said I would BOP them in the nose. The more you post the bigger Ass
you prove yourself to be. I can't believe you resort to insults on my spelling.
I don't spell check my posts nor do I care to. I think I make a dame good point
when I want to and I'm sure you get the point regardless of the poor spelling.
You should be the last to speak on grammar I put up with your" AN CUE" for 7
months I never once corrected you. I am glad TW did I was sick of seeing it,
even though I knew what you meant. I have never made a threat to you and I
think it's a shame you can't deal with people who don't kiss your ass on every
topic. I can care less what anyone thinks of me in the RSB the fact remains I
will post and I will make perfect sense, and good points. I'm sure many will
continue to mock my spelling, but I take this as a compliment because it proves
to me that you are to dumb to debate my point or you agree but don't like the
Author. You may not like me but I am right, live with it Doug you cry baby. Of
coarse your mad and you replied to this post, because it points out my point of
people paying too much for lesser quality cues from fly by nighters. I am
starting to see the ignorance in this RSB many people pump up or put down
peoples products (TW CUES) because of their personal feelings towards the
poster. I have noticed many people get on and cry about flames and fights on
this RSB yet after someone posted something derogatory about TW cues 4 people
went on to try to start a flame war. I think the same 4 will go on next week
and say stop it, take it off our RSB. I don't think TW will debate this person.
I can't speak for him but I have noticed that most of his responses that many
have made fun of are all based in fact. He states his case with intelligence
and facts something the people in here can't deal with. I think in this case he
might say, " The person who doesn't like his cue doesn't have to buy it." I
find it funny that many say he is nuts when he defends himself. Either to
smorg, or his business interests at the BCA. Doug has been mad at me since I
told him I felt he started the hole thing with TW and he has been dying to try
to get me back. I'll never understand it. He has threatened to have me tossed
of AOL, for what??? Who knows. I guess he figures if he gets rid of all the
people who disagree with him he will be right. I sent this to Doug in private
to so I'm sure I will be thrown off the Internet by tomorrow. I guess it's real
hard for him to hit delete. I'm sorry that you didn't buy a cue from a cue
maker who has a better reputation, maybe then TW wouldn't have pointed out the
fact that you paid 900 for a cue that someone put together with parts from a
catalogue. Then maybe you would still have your sense of humor and you wouldn't
be so bitter. I am still shocked that J Walkup hasn't replied to tell us all
how Nova cues are much better then everyone else's. I mean this is a free shot
for you to push your cues, and Website. That's the only reason you post to
every thread isn't it John ????
JIM < ----- Same old JimBoCt as always.
MULLY
>> hit like shit, in my opinion.
>
>
>As I read this sentence, I gripped my seat as I felt that odd spine
tingling
>sensation, like nails scratching the blackboard. I may have even
>screeched. Something wicked this way comes.
>Fred Agnir
No shit. Isn't that just beautiful? I have always enjoyed watching someone
sticking his/ her foot in their mouth, but this...this is priceless. I am so
glad that I was here to see this firsthand. This is the kind of stuff that
good stories are made out of. Pool rooms across the U.S. of A. will hear
about this one by word of mouth and I was here to see it. I've got a front
row seat and it only cost me $25.00 a month for unlimited access. I can't
wait until Paul Bunyon wakes up and checks his mail.
MULLY
popcorn anyone?
Carl Hatchell
Any more info on the Blomdhal/Reyes tape.
Sent you a few inquires in private email but
probably screwed them up somehow.
Carl Hatchell
Hayward, Ca.
twc
wrote:
>You also claim [TW's] cues hit like shit,
>I doubt it'll bother him, one little bit.
>
Jim;
You're still an unmitigated jerk in my opinion, but you are absolutely
correct about THIS. I am only interested in having my cues in the
hands of owners who LIKE them. I don't push my cues on anyone.
Fortunately, I've been able to make a living with that crazy,
un-businesslike attitude.
Thomas Wayne
twc
>>The point of this thread was to show not TW's insanity [...]
No, Jimbo, I can do that all on my own...
TW
twc
<lis...@shizuokanet.ne.jp> wrote:
>No shit. Isn't that just beautiful? I have always enjoyed watching someone
>sticking his/ her foot in their mouth, but this...this is priceless. I am so
>glad that I was here to see this firsthand. This is the kind of stuff that
>good stories are made out of. Pool rooms across the U.S. of A. will hear
>about this one by word of mouth and I was here to see it. I've got a front
>row seat and it only cost me $25.00 a month for unlimited access. I can't
>wait until Paul Bunyon wakes up and checks his mail.
Hate to dissapoint ya'll, but I'm not bothered even a little bit by
such an opinion. I can only make about 100 cues a year. If EVERYONE
liked MY cues, there'd be no work for my many friends and peers.
Thomas Wayne
Jimbo Ct
John I checked the dictionary (well I had my mom help) I couldn't find
Strawman, but I did find commodity. Commodity: a narrow minded Asshole, with
a knack for avoiding any tough question. Very proficient at back peddling and
semantics to twist a comment, he may have made. Short term memory not reliable.
I guess you really are a commodity John.
JIM < -----Learning new stuff every day Thanx JW
Ron Hudson
Here ya go.
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?db=*&term=straw+man
Ron
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Ken Bour
Sterling, VA
http://www.erols.com/kbour
MULLY wrote in message <73mohm$r...@news1.newsguy.com>...
John Walkup
>
> >I was already a well-known commodity in RSB when I sold my first cue.<BR>
>
> John I checked the dictionary (well I had my mom help) I couldn't find
> Strawman, but I did find commodity. Commodity: a narrow minded Asshole, with
> a knack for avoiding any tough question. Very proficient at back peddling and
> semantics to twist a comment, he may have made. Short term memory not reliable.
> I guess you really are a commodity John.
And you have the humor of a 15 year old.
Carl D. Cravens
>Strawman, but I did find commodity. Commodity: a narrow minded Asshole, with
>a knack for avoiding any tough question. Very proficient at back peddling and
>semantics to twist a comment, he may have made. Short term memory not reliable.
>I guess you really are a commodity John.
Alright, class, let's make sure we're all on the same page here.
A "strawman" argument is one in which the debater builds up some
weak argument or opposing view (attributed to his opponent) which he can
then easily refute, providing a quick, showy victory. The important
aspect of the strawman is that the argument attributed to the opponent
is usually half-true, taken out of context, or so trivial as to be
unimportant.
So an example might go like this... Mr. Walkup says that cue artist X
is a better artist than A, B and C. So Mr. Jim makes the claim that Mr.
Walkup has stated that cue artists A, B and C produce crappy "art" and
that their cue construction is inferior. This argument is then easily
refuted (A, B, and C's cues play great and everyone will agree their
artistic ability isn't half-bad), making Mr. Jim seem like a wise
debator and Mr. Walkup an opinionated loud-mouth.
While we're at it, I might as well educate on another debating strategy
used quite often here, which is "ye ole ad hominim attack". Ad hominim
is Latin for (give or take) "to the man". An example would be something
like, "JimboCT beats off while sucking on a cue made by A, so his
opinion about cues sucks." By bringing the integrity, intelligence, or
even weirdness of the opponent into the argument, an attempt is made to
weaken the argument by damaging the believabilty of the opponent.
(Since John brought this one up elsewhere, I thought it important that
everyone know it, too.)
(Examples used in this message in no way reflect the true opinions of
the poster concerning the individuals involved. Mr. Walkup is quite
alright in my book, even if we don't always agree. JimboCT has yet to
win me over, though.)
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
We tend to judge others by their actions, ourselves by our intentions.
-Dr. Ed Cole.
twc
<lis...@shizuokanet.ne.jp> wrote:
>Oh man, you suck!!
This claim has NEVER been proven.
> You have a golden oppurtunity to rip someone a new
>asshole right in the middle of their forehead and you pass it up. I'm
>bummin'!!!
Hey man, I'm tired. Whatta ya say you do it for me?
LYMI
Thomas Wayne
Jimbo Ct
opinion. I listen to all, and give my own in return. I would like to go over
your reply
>Mr. Walkup says that cue artist X
>is a better artist than A, B and C.
Right off the bat I gave 10 Names of 10 different cue makers, he gives one..
I have no interest in any sales of the 10 cue makers I used in my argument. He
on the other hand is in the sales business. If you buy his story you might buy
his cues. Thus JW makes money.
>Mr. Jim makes the claim that Mr.
>Walkup has stated that cue artists A, B and C produce crappy "art"
He admitted to this.
>their cue construction is inferior. This argument is then easily
>refuted (A, B, and C's cues play great and everyone will agree their
>artistic ability isn't half-bad),
Not everybody. He doesn't think so. but he skates this issue by saying that he
thinks the work is inferior on the "cues he has seen" well if you only see 1
shitty Southwest Cue I don't think you can surmise that all SW cues suck.
>Mr. Walkup an opinionated loud-mouth.
so far so good
>"JimboCT beats off while sucking on a cue made by A, so his
>opinion about cues sucks." By bringing the integrity, intelligence,
Once again I will state I have nothing to gain if any of the guys I mention
ever sell another cue in my lifetime.
My point was that some cue makers have built up a reputation and have paid
dues over the years. I feel some of these people make a better product due to
the fact that they have experience, and a greater knowledge of this ART. Looks
and Hit in my book are not debatable because I feel they are personal
preferences. I can't tell you what hits good you need to find out what you like
for your self. Same way I can't tell you what looks good or what has artistic
value, which is in the eye of the beholder. JW on the other hand knows better
and can tell you what looks good and what has Artistic value, and what hits
better.
You forgot 1 other debate technique. I'm not sure what it's called, but it's
the one when you realize that you have made some outrageous comments, and that
you are wrong. Instead of admitting it, you resort to personal attacks against
the person who made a good point. It's better then to admit that you may be
Bias or Wrong.
JIM <-----waiting for more insults
Mikeymc12
>better, or your "taste" in hit is about 180 degrees from mine. My
Cobra,
>which I got as part of a package deal, hits like dead rock. (Comma splice,
>sorry)
I don't know. Mine is about 2 years old.. (Supposedly the last year Cobra made
cues?) But I like it. It hits well and does what I want it too :)
Mike
John Walkup
> So an example might go like this... Mr. Walkup says that cue artist X
> is a better artist than A, B and C. So Mr. Jim makes the claim that Mr.
> Walkup has stated that cue artists A, B and C produce crappy "art" and
> that their cue construction is inferior. This argument is then easily
> refuted (A, B, and C's cues play great and everyone will agree their
> artistic ability isn't half-bad), making Mr. Jim seem like a wise
> debator and Mr. Walkup an opinionated loud-mouth.
It would be difficult to make Mr. Jim look like a wise debator.
In the actual situation, we had a number of straw men.
1. Mr. Walkup says that the finish on Cue A is the best he has seen.
Mr. Jim claims that Mr. Walkup says that no one puts on a better
finish
than the maker of Cue A.
2. Mr. Walkup says that Cue A is every bit as good as Cue B. Mr. Jim
claims
that Mr. Walkup said that Cue A is the best available, bar none.
3. Mr. Walkup claims that the cues pictured in the Blue Book are no
more
artistic than Cue A. Mr. Jim claims that Mr. Walkup said that the
cues
pictured in the Blue Book are pieces of crap and are not as good as
Cue A.
And on and on and on.
John Walkup
>
> Carl I'm not trying to win you over, I am fine with people who don't like my
> opinion. I listen to all, and give my own in return. I would like to go over
> your reply
>
> >is a better artist than A, B and C.
>
> I have no interest in any sales of the 10 cue makers I used in my argument.
And right off the bat Jimbo resorts to the ad hominem attack.
"Mr. Walkup must be wrong because he represents the cues that he
discusses."
It didn't take long.
> >Mr. Jim makes the claim that Mr.
> >Walkup has stated that cue artists A, B and C produce crappy "art"
>
> He admitted to this.
No I didn't. I said that they were no more artistic than Cue A.
> >their cue construction is inferior. This argument is then easily
> >refuted (A, B, and C's cues play great and everyone will agree their
> >artistic ability isn't half-bad),
>
> Not everybody. He doesn't think so. but he skates this issue by saying that he
> thinks the work is inferior on the "cues he has seen" well if you only see 1
> shitty Southwest Cue I don't think you can surmise that all SW cues suck.
>
> >"JimboCT beats off while sucking on a cue made by A, so his
> >opinion about cues sucks." By bringing the integrity, intelligence,
>
> Once again I will state I have nothing to gain if any of the guys I mention
> ever sell another cue in my lifetime.
Yeah, so? That is completely irrelevant. You are only proving his
point that
you resort to ad hominem attacks.
> My point was that some cue makers have built up a reputation and have paid
> dues over the years. I feel some of these people make a better product due to
> the fact that they have experience, and a greater knowledge of this ART. Looks
> and Hit in my book are not debatable because I feel they are personal
> preferences. I can't tell you what hits good you need to find out what you like
> for your self. Same way I can't tell you what looks good or what has artistic
> value, which is in the eye of the beholder. JW on the other hand knows better
> and can tell you what looks good and what has Artistic value, and what hits
> better.
>
> You forgot 1 other debate technique. I'm not sure what it's called, but it's
> the one when you realize that you have made some outrageous comments, and that
> you are wrong. Instead of admitting it, you resort to personal attacks against
> the person who made a good point.
Yeah, well I am sure you are familiar with this technique. (Something
about sour assholes, or something like that.)
> It's better then to admit that you may be
> Bias or Wrong.
Come on, Jim, you can admit it. You are biased and you are wrong.
twc
wrote:
>It would be difficult to make Mr. Jim look like a wise debator.
No, but I have a feeling he's a mass debator.
TW
Carl D. Cravens
>>Mr. Walkup says that cue artist X
>>is a better artist than A, B and C.
>
>Right off the bat I gave 10 Names of 10 different cue makers, he gives one..
>on the other hand is in the sales business. If you buy his story you might buy
>his cues. Thus JW makes money.
Those were examples, not meant to reflect reality.
>>Mr. Jim makes the claim that Mr.
>>Walkup has stated that cue artists A, B and C produce crappy "art"
>
>He admitted to this.
Those were examples, not meant to reflect reality.
>>their cue construction is inferior. This argument is then easily
>>refuted (A, B, and C's cues play great and everyone will agree their
>>artistic ability isn't half-bad),
>
>Not everybody. He doesn't think so. but he skates this issue by saying that he
>thinks the work is inferior on the "cues he has seen" well if you only see 1
>shitty Southwest Cue I don't think you can surmise that all SW cues suck.
Those were examples, not meant to reflect reality.
>>Mr. Walkup an opinionated loud-mouth.
>
>so far so good
Those were examples, not meant to reflect reality.
>>"JimboCT beats off while sucking on a cue made by A, so his
>>opinion about cues sucks." By bringing the integrity, intelligence,
> Once again I will state I have nothing to gain if any of the guys I mention
>ever sell another cue in my lifetime.
Those were examples, not meant to reflect reality. (Albeit a rather
cruel example.)
> My point was that some cue makers have built up a reputation and have paid
>dues over the years. I feel some of these people make a better product due to
Oh, wait... you think I care about this argument. I'm just in it for
the humor. I don't care whether you or John are "right" in this...
but you're rather obnoxious about it. No offense intended, but if you
had a beef with John there were certainly more polite ways to address
it.
(Okay, my real opinion? Everyone's a critic and art's in the eye of the
beholder.)
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
The modems canno' stand the strain, captain!
Deno J. Andrews
The tape should be available soon, but I don't know the details yet. I
am thinking around $50, there are two tapes with a couple of other
matches on them. They are in Japanese, which makes them really fun to
listen to. I will post when I have more info.
Deno
MULLY
Oh man, you suck!! You have a golden oppurtunity to rip someone a new
asshole right in the middle of their forehead and you pass it up. I'm
bummin'!!!
MULLY
MULLY
Your breath stinks. :+)
MULLY
I tried, man!
Jimbo Ct
>1. Mr. Walkup says that the finish on Cue A is the best he has seen.<BR>
Well John if you only look at 1 cue I'm sure it could have the best finsih of
any cue you have ever seen.
Hey John Guess what you can insult my spelling and grammar all week long. If
this makes you feel good about yourself then I am glad for you. That fact will
always remain, no matter how you try to twist what you have said. My Opinion is
mine you will never prove My Opinion to be wrong. I gatherd my opinion from
years of reputation and research. The cuemakers I was talking about are among
the best ever. This is not my opinion you may ask anyone. Your Opinion is based
on a self serving attitude. I don't care if TW sells another cue, last I
checked I don't make any money when he sells a cue. (If I'm wrong Thomas please
send my check out) You on the other hand have 5 or so Nova cues you would like
to sell, I assume to make a profit. I think if you came out and said "Nova cues
suck" it would make things a little tougher to sell. I said Bender had much
better designs and inlay work then Nova. I never said Nova cues weren't good. I
gave my opinion about design and craftsmanship, That's my OPINION I think many
will agree with me. You are welcome to ask around. I said I thought Cognoscenti
had some different designs that had some Artistic Merrit. You said it is like
3rd grader Doodleing (I'm sure you will denie this because I may have misquoted
you, maybe you said I used to do this in third grade it's called scribbleing)
either way the content is there. The fact will always remain the same I gain
nothing from stateing I like the Design of a cue or I think it has Artistic
Value, You on the other hand are trying to make a sale. You may be a smart man
John but on this issue you seem narrow minded, and IMO you lack any common
sense. JIM
John Walkup
>
> Keep back peedleing John
>
> >1. Mr. Walkup says that the finish on Cue A is the best he has seen.<BR>
>
> Well John if you only look at 1 cue I'm sure it could have the best finsih of
> any cue you have ever seen.
Whatever.
> Hey John Guess what you can insult my spelling and grammar all week long.
Yeah, because you write horribly all week long.
> If this makes you feel good about yourself then I am glad for you.
Somehow, I doubt that.
> That fact will
> always remain, no matter how you try to twist what you have said.
What fact will remain? That you will be glad for me? Odd.
> My Opinion is
> mine you will never prove My Opinion to be wrong.
And you will never prove me wrong. So why not just drop the issue?
> I gatherd my opinion from
> years of reputation and research. The cuemakers I was talking about are among
> the best ever. This is not my opinion you may ask anyone.
And I never said anything to contradict that.
> Your Opinion is based
> on a self serving attitude. I don't care if TW sells another cue, last I
> checked I don't make any money when he sells a cue. (If I'm wrong Thomas please
> send my check out) You on the other hand have 5 or so Nova cues you would like
> to sell, I assume to make a profit. I think if you came out and said "Nova cues
> suck" it would make things a little tougher to sell.
Again, I offered to you my opinions on Nova cues IN A PRIVATE EMAIL
CONVERSATION.
Since you were not interested in buying a Nova cue, how can you say that
my
opinions were created in an effort to generate sales? (I realize I have
stated
this before. I also realize that almost everyone in here over the age
of five
understands. But Jimbo can't get it through his head.)
Here are the FACTS:
1. YOU are the one that initiated the email exchange.
2. YOU are the one that started the entire argument.
3. YOU are the one that divulged our private conversation to the
public.
So how can you claim that I am the one that is self-promoting? It it
had been up
to me, no one in here would have heard any of this.
One more thing: I sell Nova Cues BECAUSE I THINK THEY ARE DAMN GOOD
CUES.
I could sell any cue I wish. I only sell those that I think represent
the
best VALUE currently available. So naturally I am going to have a high
opinion of Nubs' work, otherwise I wouldn't be selling them in the first
place.
DOH!
> I said Bender had much
> better designs and inlay work then Nova. I never said Nova cues weren't good.
You said something about shovels. Gee, what was that quote? I forgot.
> I
> gave my opinion about design and craftsmanship, That's my OPINION I think many
> will agree with me. You are welcome to ask around. I said I thought Cognoscenti
> had some different designs that had some Artistic Merrit. You said it is like
> 3rd grader Doodleing (I'm sure you will denie this because I may have misquoted
> you, maybe you said I used to do this in third grade it's called scribbleing)
> either way the content is there.
No it isn't. You're not even close.
> The fact will always remain the same I gain
> nothing from stateing I like the Design of a cue or I think it has Artistic
> Value,
But that means nothing. The fact that you have no financial interest in
the
issue doesn't make you right. Nor does it even give your argument an
ounce
of credence. Again, you are resorting to an ad hominem attack.
> You on the other hand are trying to make a sale. You may be a smart man
> John but on this issue you seem narrow minded, and IMO you lack any common
> sense. JIM
Jim, please pick up the white clue phone.
John Walkup
Heh, heh.
So Jim is a mass debator who knows a sour ass when he _______ it. :)
fred....@nypro.com
--
Regards,
Fred Agnir
Leominster, MA
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Carl D. Cravens
>
>It would be difficult to make Mr. Jim look like a wise debator.
Well, that was just an example and not meant to be a reflection of
reality. :)
>In the actual situation, we had a number of straw men.
>
>1. Mr. Walkup says that the finish on Cue A is the best he has seen.
> Mr. Jim claims that Mr. Walkup says that no one puts on a better
>finish than the maker of Cue A.
Subtle difference, ain't it? Prime example of a strawman.
The thing that bothers me about this medium is people often remember
something different that what they actually read... you say one thing
and they read what they expect you to be saying or something. We (and I
include myself) can often attack what we believe to be someone else's
opinions because we've classified them into a black-and-white, "your
opinion is opposite of my opinion" mode because it's easier to deal with
that way.
This is a thread that probably won't benefit anybody one whit unless we
start over and lay a proper foundation concerning what the true opinions
are. And that wouldn't be nearly as interesting, so it probably ought
to be dropped all 'round and forgotten about.
But that'll never happen, this is Usenet. :)
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
ERROR: Unable to comprehend lame tagline.
John Walkup
>
> Hey John I was just wondering, what do you think of Bill Schicks work ??????
You should ask Dave Adams, out of Georgia. He has owned a bunch. In
fact, he told me he has something mighty special coming out of Schick's
shop here pretty soon. JPEGS! JPEGS!
> Also how would you say it compares to Nova and Russ Espritu cues?
I don't know. I have never compared them.
(Jimbo has discovered that none of the big cuemakers in RSB have
jumped to his side, so now he is going to try and recruit Bill Schick.
This is going to get good. LOL!)
Jim Barr
Hee Hee, The felling is mutual!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
There is a cuemaker in Alaska by the last name of Wayne,
I hear he makes cues without any grain.
There are places that will sell a TW for about 80 bucks,
I'm sure TW thinks that really sucks.
Have a nice day Thomas,
Jim Barr
Jimbo Ct
Jim <------Just Curious
Jimbo Ct
skated this question. I guess I'll have to wait till you can make money on a
Schick before I can get an opinion out of you. I think I just used the Quasi
super duper dopler debate on you. Thats the one where I ask an easy qestion
about your opinion on a cue, and you avoid even the smallest reply. Good work
John.
Jim <----Wonderin if anyone else noticed John has no opinion.
twc
wrote:
>
>There is a cuemaker in Alaska by the last name of Wayne,
>I hear he makes cues without any grain.
>
>There are places that will sell a TW for about 80 bucks,
>I'm sure TW thinks that really sucks.
I'm pretty sure of this much: nothing sucks quite as badly as your
lame attempt at poetry.
Just how far through the school system DID you get, Jim? Somebody
told me that the third grade was the toughest six years of your life.
TW
twc
wrote:
>(Jimbo has discovered that none of the big cuemakers in RSB have
>jumped to his side, so now he is going to try and recruit Bill Schick.
>This is going to get good. LOL!)
John, the problem with Jimbo's position not that he's wrong. He just
chose to ignore warning signs that sarcasm (a form of communication
popular in the east that never really made it big in the west) would
fly right over the heads of most of the RSB-ers.
But his ACTUAL position - as opposed to his tongue-in-cheek post - is
likely appreciated by MOST of the "big cuemakers". As for myself, I
don't mind if Nubs wants to price his cues far lower than mine; he
knows what his work is worth.
Thomas Wayne
John Walkup
>
> Your such an asshole John, I don't care if anyone backs me up. I love how you
> skated this question.
Skated the question? I have never compared them. Am I supposed to just
make
up an answer?
> I think I just used the Quasi
> super duper dopler debate on you.
Is that the technique where you act like a fool in an attempt to provoke
a fight? If so, you have been doing that all along.
> Thats the one where I ask an easy qestion
> about your opinion on a cue, and you avoid even the smallest reply.
Too bad you didn't ask me for a comparison between my Nova Cue and
Ron Hudson's Tim Scruggs cue. Last night both of us examined both
cues in detail.
John Walkup
> On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:13:10 -0600, John Walkup <cue...@telepath.com>
> wrote:
> >(Jimbo has discovered that none of the big cuemakers in RSB have
> >jumped to his side, so now he is going to try and recruit Bill Schick.
> >This is going to get good. LOL!)
> John, the problem with Jimbo's position not that he's wrong. He just
> chose to ignore warning signs that sarcasm (a form of communication
> popular in the east that never really made it big in the west) would
> fly right over the heads of most of the RSB-ers.
Sarcasm works here as well, but it has to be written at the sixth grade
level or higher. It's not our fault, we just don't expect sarcasm from
adolescents.
> But his ACTUAL position - as opposed to his tongue-in-cheek post - is
> likely appreciated by MOST of the "big cuemakers". As for myself, I
> don't mind if Nubs wants to price his cues far lower than mine; he
> knows what his work is worth.
> Thomas Wayne
Amazing. Truly amazing.
Jim Barr
> Just how far through the school system DID you get, Jim? Somebody
> told me that the third grade was the toughest six years of your life.
>
> TW
Naw, they were close though. 7 years in the fourth grade was much
tougher the 6 in the third.
At least I know that pig skin or Buffalo hide would still be considered
leather.
Jim
Jimbo Ct
>make<BR>
>up an answer?<BR
I just asked your opinion John I didn't know you needed time to study up. I
don't recall you telling me this when you made comments about his work in the
private E-mail. I would never bring that up though since it would betray your
trust. LOL. Next time I want your opinion I'll give you some time to study.
Jim <----Didn't know john wanted to study first.
twc
wrote:
>At least I know that pig skin or Buffalo hide would still be considered
>leather.
Geez, Jim, if that was meant to ZING me, ya blew it again. In any
post of MINE, where there is a statement about Moori tips not being
'leather', I was clearly QUOTING someone else's statement. I've
always known:
1) Moori tips are pigskin
2) Pigskin is leather
NOW, on the other hand, if you WEREN'T trying to zing me, and instead
were simply making a proud declaration about your knowledge regarding
pigskin... well... congratulations; you get a gold star for today.
And you can take off your dunce cap 'til recess.
TW
Jim Barr
>
> On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 07:47:12 -0600, Jim Barr <jim...@sound.net>
> wrote:
>
> >At least I know that pig skin or Buffalo hide would still be considered
> >leather.
>
> Geez, Jim, if that was meant to ZING me, ya blew it again. In any
> post of MINE, where there is a statement about Moori tips not being
> 'leather', I was clearly QUOTING someone else's statement. I've
> always known:
>
> 1) Moori tips are pigskin
> 2) Pigskin is leather
Hmmm...
Here's the post. When you said this is not exactly true I guess you were
referring to the part about him not using Triangles???????????????
>On Sat, 28 Nov 1998 16:16:26 +0900, "MULLY"
>Actually they are just plain leather tips. I haven't got the slightest idea
>why they are so popular. Personally, I don't like them. I miscue too much
>with a Moori. I use Triangle tips. I've been using Triangles for years so
>that's probably why I can't adjust to a Moori.
Reply by the famous double space cuemaker Thomas Wayne:
Well, this isn't exactly true. They are:
1. Pigskin, not cow, "water bufalo", or other bovine species.
2. Laminated of many thin layers (approx 12.)
3. Um... I'm gonna keep this one to myself.
Thomas Wayne
~~~~~End of post
>
> NOW, on the other hand, if you WEREN'T trying to zing me, and instead
> were simply making a proud declaration about your knowledge regarding
> pigskin... well... congratulations; you get a gold star for today.
> And you can take off your dunce cap 'til recess.
>
> TW
Thank you,
Jim Barr
Patrick Johnson
> A 4x4 post painted orange & planted in the ground is not art? Sure it is.
>
> This sculpture abstractly utilized a simple geometric shape in a way that was not
> thematically mainstream with other sculpture artistry.HELLO!?!? Color, contrast,
> hue, tint, intensity, texture (to name a few) are all fundamental values of art.
I stepped in some minimalist art today. Color, intensity, texture... it had it
all. The kind of artistic experience that stays with you long afterward.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
John Walkup
>
> John Walkup writes:
>
> <<At Fresno State we had some modern art sprinkled around campus. One of the
> "sculptures" was a 4X4 planted into the ground and painted orange. They used
> the same reasoning. (And probably charged a bundle.)>>
>
> A 4x4 post painted orange & planted in the ground is not art? Sure it is. It
> is antithetical art or more commonly known as anti-art. Just because it does
> not LOOK like the other sculptures, does not mean it does not have any artistic
> qualities at all.
Well, I have some art laying around the house I would
like to sell you. :)
But seriously, thumping someone over the head and stealing their money
will elicit emotions from them, but that doesn't make the act art.
> More accurately it could be classified as minimal art. This type of art uses
> simple geometrical forms in an abstract and impersonal style. Most minimal art
> exhibits some anti-art characteristics. This sculpture abstractly utilized a
> simple geometric shape in a way that was not thematically mainstream with other
> sculpture artistry. Judging from the description of this sculpture, the artist
> has achieved the desired response solicited from the viewer. You've been had by
> an orange 4x4!
I think artists can lay it on with a trowel. :)
> <<Again, I find many of the choices cuemakers use for their designs
> aesthetically pleasing. Some of the colors and shapes work well together, and
> their choice of materials is often top-notch, with the textures meshing
> perfectly. But that isn't art. That is just good taste. At least, that is how
> I view it.>>
>
> That's a line of BS. HELLO!?!? Color, contrast, hue, tint, intensity, texture
> (to name a few) are all fundamental values of art.
Okay, but it isn't necessarily FINE art. (According to the loosest
definition
of art, anything man-made is art. It just isn't FINE art.)
> If it is not art, then why
> did you judge with those values and call it taste?
Because taste is not necessarily related to fine art. Everytime I get
up
in the morning I try and color coordinate my clothes. It looks better
that way, but that isn't art.
Now my natural beauty has often been described as art, but that is
another
thread.
sam
piece of bait someone lays out. "anything man made is art"? Oops. I just
farted. Well, there goes another masterpiece!! Sincerely, Sam
John Walkup wrote in message <366375...@telepath.com>...
John Walkup
>
> CSmith4738 wrote:
>
> > A 4x4 post painted orange & planted in the ground is not art? Sure it is.
> >
> > hue, tint, intensity, texture (to name a few) are all fundamental values of art.
>
> all. The kind of artistic experience that stays with you long afterward.
But did it elicit any emotion? That is very important.
twc
wrote:
>
>Hmmm...
>Here's the post. When you said this is not exactly true I guess you were
>referring to the part about him not using Triangles???????????????
Careful Jim, as much as the everyday world baffles you, you can't
afford to be wasting those question marks. You'll run out in no time;
then where will you be?
You are a sad little creature, aren't you. I think it should be
obvious to anyone of average intelligence that I said "not exactly" in
order to differentiate between "plain leather" and pigskin leather.
This is commonly done WHENEVER leather is seriously discussed, such as
with garments, or gloves, or hides.
But hey, keep digging Jim. You might find the bottom of that hole
yet!
Thomas Wayne
(P.S. Here. ?????????????????????? I'm throwing in a few of mine
so you won't run out. I don't need 'em quite as much as you do.)
John Walkup
>
> > I have never compared them. Am I supposed to just<BR>
> >make<BR>
> >up an answer?<BR
>
> I just asked your opinion John I didn't know you needed time to study up.
Of what use is an opinion that is not based on information? SInce I
never
compared the two, I cannot form an opinion.
> I
> don't recall you telling me this when you made comments about his work in the
> private E-mail.
Another fallacy. Here, you intentionally make it SEEM as if I have been
slamming Bill Schick's work in private communication. Not so.
> I would never bring that up though since it would betray your
> trust. LOL.
Actually, you didn't tell everyone in here exactly what I said because
then
they would realize that nothing I said was inflammatory. So you hint at
it,
hoping they will jump to the wrong conclusions.
Do you really think that your tactics are so clever? Hopefully, the
readers of RSB
don't fall for them.
> Next time I want your opinion I'll give you some time to study.
A concept I am sure is completely alien to you.
CSmith4738
<<At Fresno State we had some modern art sprinkled around campus. One of the
"sculptures" was a 4X4 planted into the ground and painted orange. They used
the same reasoning. (And probably charged a bundle.)>>
A 4x4 post painted orange & planted in the ground is not art? Sure it is. It
is antithetical art or more commonly known as anti-art. Just because it does
not LOOK like the other sculptures, does not mean it does not have any artistic
qualities at all.
More accurately it could be classified as minimal art. This type of art uses
simple geometrical forms in an abstract and impersonal style. Most minimal art
exhibits some anti-art characteristics. This sculpture abstractly utilized a
simple geometric shape in a way that was not thematically mainstream with other
sculpture artistry. Judging from the description of this sculpture, the artist
has achieved the desired response solicited from the viewer. You've been had by
an orange 4x4!
<<Again, I find many of the choices cuemakers use for their designs
aesthetically pleasing. Some of the colors and shapes work well together, and
their choice of materials is often top-notch, with the textures meshing
perfectly. But that isn't art. That is just good taste. At least, that is how
I view it.>>
That's a line of BS. HELLO!?!? Color, contrast, hue, tint, intensity, texture
(to name a few) are all fundamental values of art. If it is not art, then why
did you judge with those values and call it taste?
Clark Smith
Clark Custom Cues
Tacoma, WA
John Walkup
>
> John, That's what I love about you. You'll get sucked in by just about any
> piece of bait someone lays out. "anything man made is art"? Oops. I just
> farted. Well, there goes another masterpiece!!
Please keep your natural talents to yourself. :)
Carl D. Cravens
><<At Fresno State we had some modern art sprinkled around campus. One of the
>"sculptures" was a 4X4 planted into the ground and painted orange. They used
>the same reasoning. (And probably charged a bundle.)>>
>
>A 4x4 post painted orange & planted in the ground is not art? Sure it is. It
>is antithetical art or more commonly known as anti-art. Just because it does
>not LOOK like the other sculptures, does not mean it does not have any artistic
>qualities at all.
Yep, it's not art... it's a 4x4 painted orange. How can it be art if
it's specifically "anti-art"? "Anti" means "not", "opposite", or
"against". By it's own definition, anti-art is "not-art".
>That's a line of BS. HELLO!?!? Color, contrast, hue, tint, intensity, texture
>(to name a few) are all fundamental values of art. If it is not art, then why
>did you judge with those values and call it taste?
Flesh, blood, bone are all fundamental values of a living human being.
But having them doesn't grant life... flesh, blood, and bone can be
dead. I can get color, contrast, hue, tint, intensity, and texture by
throwing buckets of paint at my garage door... but that doesn't create
art.
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
It's not just a mistake, it's an adventure!
MULLY
>Here's the post. When you said this is not exactly true I guess you were
>referring to the part about him not using Triangles???????????????
I'm sure twc can take care of himself but you missed the part where Deno had
said that Moori tips aren't leather. Thoomas' reply was to Deno's statement,
which is not shown in your post.
MULLY
MULLY
>Now my natural beauty has often been described as art, but that is
>another
>thread.
I think I'm gonna be sick.
MULLY
Jim Barr
> (P.S. Here. ?????????????????????? I'm throwing in a few of mine
> so you won't run out. I don't need 'em quite as much as you do.)
Thanks again, I copied and pasted them in Notepad for when I need 'em. I
saved it as ??????????????????????.txt. Should I have done
that??????????????????????
Jim Barr
Chad McDaniel
congrats RSB regs.
But on the subject of Russ Espiritu, however the heck his name is
spelled???
I thought this guy was from around Jackson, Mississippi. Am I wrong
in this? If so...I am truly sorry for what I am about to say. The
cues were rather easily available in Memphis and Jackson and nearly
every city in between...yes there are a few.
I happen to have purchased one of his cues some number of years back
that was a maroon four point sneaky pete, and it hit good, not
great...but good. I remember it was his cue because it was signed
on the butt right below the joint. Anyway, I kept noticing how
the cue seemed too familiar to me...the points were not even...
it was feather light...and was not even finished on the shaft or
the butt.
Later, I come to learn that this person was buying 1 piece house cues
of a brand that escapes my memory right now...and making them into
two piece sticks. Sure enuff, I found an exact replica of my two
piece cue in a one piece form about two weeks later, I thought the
old man at the pool room was pulling my leg. I paid around $150
bux for this dang cue, that I could buy the same thing for around
$15 bux. Ever since then I have not held his cues in much regard...
but opinions are like buttholes, everybody has one.
This may have just been him starting out in the cue market, I
am not sure at all...he may have just been doing this for extra
money...who knows? And I may be wrong altogether...but I could
of sworn that this was the same guy.
Anyway, not meant to get any flames here...but buyers beware...
Chad, aka KidShark
--
Chad McDaniel PC System Administrator
Pager: (407)680-3163 ENSCO, Inc.
Phone: (407)254-4122, ext.142 445 Pineda Court
Fax: (407)254-3293 Melbourne, Florida 32940
Cellular: (407)427-5617 Email: ch...@fl.ensco.com
CSmith4738
<<Yep, it's not art... it's a 4x4 painted orange. How can it be art if it's
specifically "anti-art"? "Anti" means "not", "opposite", or "against". By
it's own definition, anti-art is "not-art".>>
Sure, anti-art can be interpreted that way, however that is not the recognized
definition. Anti-art simply means that the art is made on a premise that is
completely OPPOSITE to traditional or POPULAR art forms. Guess what? That
includes throwing buckets of paint on your garage door as you describe below.
<<Flesh, blood, bone are all fundamental values of a living human being. But
having them doesn't grant life... flesh, blood, and bone can be dead. I can
get color, contrast, hue, tint, intensity, and texture by throwing buckets of
paint at my garage door... but that doesn't create art.>>
In our eyes it may not create art, just like those who have NO INTEREST in pool
and think a pool cue is just a, "Hunk of wood." They have absolutely no
conception of the reasons why a cue can command a $600 price tag. Just like we
have no conception of why paint on a garage door IS art.
Honestly? Sure, I can uderstand some art and other art I can't understand. But
because I don't understand some art does not disqualify it as art.
Ron Hudson
>>That's a line of BS. HELLO!?!? Color, contrast, hue, tint, intensity, texture
>>(to name a few) are all fundamental values of art. If it is not art, then why
>>did you judge with those values and call it taste?
>
>Flesh, blood, bone are all fundamental values of a living human being.
>But having them doesn't grant life... flesh, blood, and bone can be
>dead. I can get color, contrast, hue, tint, intensity, and texture by
>throwing buckets of paint at my garage door... but that doesn't create
>art.
If someone else does that to you garage door, it would cause you to become
emotional when viewing it. Then is it art?
Ron
-----------------------------------------------------------
Take the Survey
http://www.localpool.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
CSmith4738
<<< I stepped in some minimalist art today. Color, intensity, texture... it
had it all. The kind of artistic experience that stays with you long
afterward.>>>
<<But did it elicit any emotion? That is very important.>>
I don't know John. How do you feel when you step in dog shit?
CSmith4738
John Walkup writes:
<<Well, I have some art laying around the house I would like to sell you. :)
>>
Ehh, pass on that. My dog craps outside. I don't let him crap in the house.
But when he does, it does not sit there. It gets cleaned up.
<<But seriously, thumping someone over the head and stealing their money will
elicit emotions from them, but that doesn't make the act art.>>
From what you quoted, I don't remember saying anything about eliciting
emotions. But now that you mention it, getting away with a mugging can be a
practical art.
<<Okay, but it isn't necessarily FINE art. >>
That is exactly the point I am trying to get across to you. There ARE artistic
differences between cues regardless of the level of complexity or value. Just
because YOU can not determine the differences does NOT mean they are not there.
Don't you think it is important to be able to qualify why cue X commands more
money than cue Y? Do you think this is important to be savvy with the various
types of cues? Don't you think this type of information sets the salesman and
the authority apart? IMNSHO I do.
Richard Black
Chad McDaniel wrote:
> I had to simply post in what seems to be the world's longest thread,
> congrats RSB regs.
>
> But on the subject of Russ Espiritu, however the heck his name is
> spelled???
>
You have it spelled correctly
>
> I thought this guy was from around Jackson, Mississippi. Am I wrong
> in this? If so...I am truly sorry for what I am about to say. The
> cues were rather easily available in Memphis and Jackson and nearly
> every city in between...yes there are a few.
Brandon MS
>
> I happen to have purchased one of his cues some number of years back
> that was a maroon four point sneaky pete, and it hit good, not
> great...but good. I remember it was his cue because it was signed
> on the butt right below the joint. Anyway, I kept noticing how
> the cue seemed too familiar to me...the points were not even...
> it was feather light...and was not even finished on the shaft or
> the butt.
>
> Later, I come to learn that this person was buying 1 piece house cues
> of a brand that escapes my memory right now...and making them into
> two piece sticks. Sure enuff, I found an exact replica of my two
> piece cue in a one piece form about two weeks later, I thought the
> old man at the pool room was pulling my leg. I paid around $150
> bux for this dang cue, that I could buy the same thing for around
> $15 bux. Ever since then I have not held his cues in much regard...
> but opinions are like buttholes, everybody has one.
>
What you describe is a standard sneaky pete ( at least it was when I was
making them years back) I think I charged around $80.00 back when, so I
don't think $150.00 would be out of line today. You should not compare
the hit of a sneaky pete to a cuemaker's standard cues
>
> This may have just been him starting out in the cue market, I
> am not sure at all...he may have just been doing this for extra
> money...who knows? And I may be wrong altogether...but I could
> of sworn that this was the same guy.
Russ is an excellent cuemaker today. He has proven himself as a true cue
artisan and presents his work in the annual Gallery of American Cue Art.
Richard Black
>
> Anyway, not meant to get any flames here...but buyers beware...
>
> Chad, aka KidShark
>
> --
> Chad McDaniel PC System Administrator
> Pager: (407)680-3163 ENSCO, Inc.
> Phone: (407)254-4122, ext.142 445 Pineda Court
> Fax: (407)254-3293 Melbourne, Florida 32940
> Cellular: (407)427-5617 Email: ch...@fl.ensco.com
Jim Barr
>
> I'm sure twc can take care of himself but you missed the part where Deno had
> said that Moori tips aren't leather. Thoomas' reply was to Deno's statement,
> which is not shown in your post.
> MULLY
I did? Here's the entire post:
On Sat, 28 Nov 1998 16:16:26 +0900, "MULLY"
<lis...@shizuokanet.ne.jp> wrote:
>>2. Why are Moori tips so desired and expensive? Are they like reconstituted
>>catfish whiskers or some other ultra never miss 'em exotic material?
>
>
>Actually they are just plain leather tips. I haven't got the slightest idea
>why they are so popular. Personally, I don't like them. I miscue too much
>with a Moori. I use Triangle tips. I've been using Triangles for years so
>that's probably why I can't adjust to a Moori.
Well, this isn't exactly true. They are:
Carl D. Cravens
>But did it elicit any emotion? That is very important.
That's about my entire criteria for art! But we also have to ask if the
*artist* was passionate about his work... true art is produced only by
those who have true passion.
--
Carl D. Cravens (rave...@southwind.net)
Madness takes it's toll...please have exact change.
David Geesaman
> mine you will never prove My Opinion to be wrong. I gatherd my opinion from
Timeout.
Maybe this is being picky, but I don't consider the point of an
argument or a usenet discussion to be proving an OPINION to be RIGHT or
WRONG.
Proof is a logical thing. An opinion isn't necessarily about logic.
An opinion is a lot of gray area, supported by a combination of logic,
experience, emotion, and education. It's not very useful (IMO) to fight
over opinions. I find it more worthwhile to work at what goes into that
opinion (facts, experiences, etc.) so that all individuals can come up
with a better understanding, and maybe, a modification to their opinion.
One of my opinions:
Anyone who is unwilling to reconsider their opinion or how they support
it displays sad ignorance, and should shut up. (That is a general
statement not directed at any particular poster)
<more heated debate snipped>
Dave
Patrick Johnson
> Timeout.
Timeout? Are we being sent to our rooms?
> Anyone who is unwilling to reconsider their opinion or how they support
> it displays sad ignorance, and should shut up.
Good idea. When they've all shut up, you and I can converse in peace.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Deno J. Andrews
> leather. I don't keep these things but that is what happened. Then twc
> joined in with what you have posted below. Deno, care to settle this one?
I have no idea what the heck is going on...all I remember is someone
said Moori's were leather...obviously referring to cowhide...so I said
they are not leather, they are pigskin...which is technically a leather
product, though not commonly referred to as such...which is why I stated
they were not leather but pigskin...then TW responded that they actually
were leather, but pig skin leather...then I said he was correct while
pointing out the fact that pigskin was not commonly referred to as
leather...whcih was my last post on the subject. After that, I don't
recall the order of events. Sorry i can't be more help....
Deno
Loving the turkey skin Moori!
Jimbo Ct
>money than cue Y? Do you think this is important to be savvy with the
>types of cues? Don't you think this type of information sets the salesman
>the authority apart?
The problem is Clark, John is a salesman, he can't see it but that's all he is.
If he can make money on it, then it's a great investment and a nice cue. If the
markup isn't big enough, he doesn't sell it and it's over priced. In closing
I'd like you all to please stop picking on John. He is uninformed when it comes
to FINE cues. That is ok because he doesn't sell them so why learn about them.
Art is in the eye of the beholder and Johns eye beholds no art in cues. I have
learned to live with this and I hope you all can also.
JIM <---Learned to accept JW for who he is
lfig...@att.net
more art than a Jag or Mercedes. Nice, but art?
Lou Figueroa
In article <19981130202345...@ng123.aol.com>,
csmit...@aol.com (CSmith4738) wrote:
> John Walkup writes:
>
> <<At Fresno State we had some modern art sprinkled around campus. One of the
> "sculptures" was a 4X4 planted into the ground and painted orange. They used
> the same reasoning. (And probably charged a bundle.)>>
>
> A 4x4 post painted orange & planted in the ground is not art? Sure it is. It
> is antithetical art or more commonly known as anti-art. Just because it does
> not LOOK like the other sculptures, does not mean it does not have any
artistic
> qualities at all.
>
> More accurately it could be classified as minimal art. This type of art uses
> simple geometrical forms in an abstract and impersonal style. Most minimal art
> exhibits some anti-art characteristics. This sculpture abstractly utilized a
> simple geometric shape in a way that was not thematically mainstream with
other
> sculpture artistry. Judging from the description of this sculpture, the
artist
> has achieved the desired response solicited from the viewer. You've been had
by
> an orange 4x4!
>
> <<Again, I find many of the choices cuemakers use for their designs
> aesthetically pleasing. Some of the colors and shapes work well together, and
> their choice of materials is often top-notch, with the textures meshing
> perfectly. But that isn't art. That is just good taste. At least, that is how
> I view it.>>
>
> That's a line of BS. HELLO!?!? Color, contrast, hue, tint, intensity, texture
> (to name a few) are all fundamental values of art. If it is not art, then why
> did you judge with those values and call it taste?
>
> Clark Smith
> Clark Custom Cues
> Tacoma, WA
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
MULLY
had
>> said that Moori tips aren't leather. Thoomas' reply was to Deno's
statement,
>> which is not shown in your post.
>> MULLY
>
>I did? Here's the entire post:
>>Actually they are just plain leather tips. I haven't got the slightest
idea
>>why they are so popular. Personally, I don't like them. I miscue too much
>>with a Moori. I use Triangle tips. I've been using Triangles for years so
>>that's probably why I can't adjust to a Moori.
I wrote this and then Deno replied to me via the NG that Moori tips are not
leather. I don't keep these things but that is what happened. Then twc
joined in with what you have posted below. Deno, care to settle this one?
MULLY
MULLY
David Geesaman wrote in message <3664989A...@Remove.This.udel.edu>...
><heated debate snipped>
>
>> mine you will never prove My Opinion to be wrong. I gatherd my opinion
from
>
> Timeout.
>
> Maybe this is being picky, but I don't consider the point of an
>argument or a usenet discussion to be proving an OPINION to be RIGHT or
>WRONG.
> Proof is a logical thing. An opinion isn't necessarily about logic.
>
> An opinion is a lot of gray area, supported by a combination of logic,
>experience, emotion, and education. It's not very useful (IMO) to fight
>over opinions. I find it more worthwhile to work at what goes into that
>opinion (facts, experiences, etc.) so that all individuals can come up
>with a better understanding, and maybe, a modification to their opinion.
Hey, we'd all appreciate it if you didn't clutter up the conversation with
facts. :+)
MULLY
John Walkup
made from two piece house cues with the cuemaker's special
shaft. Making Sneaky Pete's from scratch for $150 is usually
not very cost effective. The Verl Horn sneaky Pete's I used
to sell were made the same way. There is nothing wrong with
this practice. In fact, it is probably the norm.