Bye order on tournament chart
Ninebal310
I am looking for the BYE order for 32, 64, 128 player chart. Or, is there
a correct method for figuring it out?
I downloaded the charts from Playpool.com. They look GREAT! (Thanks Ed).
Thanks in advance to all that respond.
Hustlin' Hank
Jim White
32 player backet has 4 eight player brackets or two 16 player brackets.
Subtract the number of players on hand from 32. Divide by 2 that gives you
how many byes go into each 16 player bracket. Divide that result by 2 and
you get how many go into each 8 player bracket.
For 64 players divide the difference of number of players from 64 by 2. That
gives you number of players in each 32 player bracket. Then see above.
For 128, similarily divide the difference of number of players from 128 by
2. then see the above.
What you are trying to do is even out the number of byes across the board.
If you come up with 2 byes in an 8 player bracket, don't put them playing
each other. Evenly distribute.
When you encounter a division that results in a remainder, put the extra bye
in the top or bottom of that bracket, it doesn't matter which.
Jim (Easier to demonstrate than describe)
<nineb...@aol.committed> wrote in message
news:20020124072148...@mb-mg.aol.com...
sheldoncue
> What you are trying to do is even out the number of byes across the board.
>
> If you come up with 2 byes in an 8 player bracket, don't put them playing
> each other. Evenly distribute.
>
pay attention to the losers bracket too (assuming a double elim)
make sure you dont give someone several byes...
Jim White
the winners side as well as the loser's side. BUT ABSOLUTELY, ONCE A
PERSON PLAYS A MATCH ON THE WINNERS SIDE, HE SHOULD NEVER ENCOUNTER A BYE
AGAIN ON THE WINNERS SIDE. SAME PRINCIPAL ON THE LOSERS SIDE - ONCE A MATCH
IS PLAYED ON THE LOSERS SIDE, HE SHOULD NOT ENCOUNTER A BYE.
Jim
"sheldoncue" <sheld...@BITEMEhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91A039675CF00si...@63.240.76.16...
Fred Agnir
I am sending you a bye chart I made up a couple of years ago. It was
made from information from Ed Mercier, Mark Griffin, and Greg Miller.
It only goes to 32, but you can figure out the pattern for the rest.
Fred
Ron Shepard
<poola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> When you encounter a division that results in a remainder, put the extra bye
> in the top or bottom of that bracket, it doesn't matter which.
This isn't exactly true, at least for double-elimination charts. It does
matter, but it is pretty tedious to figure out which is best. I wish that
someone would do this for all possible elimination charts and post it
online somewhere.
Bob Jewett had an article in last month's BD that covered the
single-eliminatin chart case. In a post a couple of years ago, I
explained two different methods for placing players in a SE chart. One
method was to separate classes of players (e.g. all the byes would be in
one such class), and the other method was to see players based on ranking
(e.g. skill level, or tour points, etc.).
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Warren Lushia
Fred Agnir wrote:
fred,
maybe ed can host your chart on his site, or come up with an variation (s). he has
answered this question on his own discusssion forum a few times. maybe, in
celebration of his recent ONE MILLION hit mark for his site, he can add this
visual!!
warren..<-- congrats ed!!
Jim White
"Ron Shepard" <ron-s...@NOSPAM.attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-24...@192.168.123.47...
> In article <u502uvo...@corp.supernews.com>, "Jim White"
> <poola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > When you encounter a division that results in a remainder, put the extra
bye
> > in the top or bottom of that bracket, it doesn't matter which.
>
> This isn't exactly true, at least for double-elimination charts. It does
> matter, but it is pretty tedious to figure out which is best.
I'd appreciate knowing why it matters. I run a number of double elimination
tournaments and if it matters, I need to change it.
Have looked at this a number of times and each time have concluded it
doesn't matter. Would appreciate it if you could provide a scenario where
it matters.
Thanks,
Jim
Play4aBuck
>Hi All,
>
> I am looking for the BYE order for 32, 64, 128 player chart. Or, is
there
>a correct method for figuring it out?
>
If you seat your players in the proper order on the chart then the BYE's
will be the remaining open slots. The slots on the 16 player chart from
Playpool are numbered 1 to 16 top to bottom. This is not the order you want
to seat the players. You seat the players in this order: 1,9, 5,13,
3,11, 7,15, 2,10, 6,14, 4,12, 8,16. Player #1 (P1) goes to Slot #1
(S1), P2 to S9, P3 to S5, and etc. There is a pattern of halving the
chart, then seating players, then halving again....(see Jim Whites post).
If you only have 12 of 16 players, then remaining open slots (4,12, 8,16)
are BYE's and they are balanced out.
The fill order for a 32 player chart is
1,17,9,25,5,21,13,29,3,19,11,27,7,23,15,31,2,18,10,26,6,22,14,30,4,20,12,26,
8,24,16,32, that assuming your chart is numbered 1 to 32 from top to bottom.
Another way (the easier way I think) is to have the slots numbered on the
chart 1,9, 5,13, 3,11, 7,15, 2,10, 6,14, 4,12, 8,16 top to bottom
and NOT 1 to 16 top to bottom. The slots are numbered in the order that you
fill them. You simple seat P1 to S1, then P2 to S2, and so on. If you
only have 12 of 16 players, then remaining open slots (13-16) are BYE's and
they are balanced out.
You can find charts numbered like above from a link on TheBilliardList.Com
AKA Mark Avalon's (which is listed on Playpool under Billiard link sites).
From TheBilliardList.Com select #614 - Tournament Flow Charts (but the link
is not working now).
Cheers,
Jim
Jim White
important part.
We figure out how many byes are required, distribute as evenly as possible
the bye slots on the chart, then number the players slots top to bottom, and
then - only then do we draw the players.
Jim
"Play4aBuck" <Play4...@NoSpamYahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sMY38.384$Ab1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Fred Agnir
> fred,
> maybe ed can host your chart on his site, or come up with an variation (s).
I've sent the chart to Ed a couple of times in the past few years.
If anyone else wants a PDF copy, send me an e-mail. Mark Griffin and
Greg Miller should not be surprised that it looks nearly identical to
what they sent to me in the past.
Fred
Bob Jewett
> We figure out how many byes are required, distribute as evenly as possible
> the bye slots on the chart, then number the players slots top to bottom, and
> then - only then do we draw the players.
That's one way to do it. Another is to write in numbers in the special
order given below. Then you can simply draw and place 1-N if you have N
players. In N+1 and N+2 show up a little late, and you want to put them
in, just flip a coin to see who gets which number, and then put them on
the chart in that number. All charts are numbered the same.
The pairings for the first round of a 32-player chart are:
1-32
16-17
9-24
8-25
5-28
12-21
13-20
4-29
3-30
14-19
11-22
6-27
7-26
10-23
15-18
2-31
Note that all pairings add to 33. If the lower-numbered player in each
pair wins, all pairings add to 17, then 9, ...
If you have 25 players, just draw them into spots 1-25 above. Byes are
automatically distributed.
This whole thing is very easy once you see the pattern of numbering.
--
Bob Jewett
Ed Mercier
bye in the original draw, instead has to watch a late player rob him out of
his good fortune? In my humble opinion, you have a start time, you do the
draw. Once one name has been put on the chart, the tournament is closed.
--
Sincerely, Ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Mercier Please Playpool.com
President Mail P.O. Box 716
http://playpool.com Your Milwaukee, WI 53201-0716
e...@playpool.com Fliers Phone 262-502-9354 Fax 9361
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bob Jewett" <jew...@sfbilliards.com> wrote in message
news:10119267...@emperor.labs.agilent.com...
Warren Lushia
Ed Mercier wrote:
> So the player that arrived on time, and was fortunate enough to receive a
> bye in the original draw, instead has to watch a late player rob him out of
> his good fortune? In my humble opinion, you have a start time, you do the
> draw. Once one name has been put on the chart, the tournament is closed.
that reminds me of a situation in a weekly tournament i used to play in a few
years ago. there was one player who was an odds on favorite to win, although
there were a number of players who had a decent chance of beating him. but if
he played some people wouldn't play in the tourney. well, he got in the habit
of coming in late so the draw, and the calcutta had already started. well, you
can imagine why he did that -- more people entered, plus more people went
higher in the calcutta, so he made more money. another tactic he used was to
tell the person running the tourney he was gonna play, but put him last on the
draw as he was gonna be late. he also had the person not tell anyone he was
signed up. you can imagine people got pissed when his name came up last in the
calcutta and he had just showed up. the owner put a stop to these tactics, as
many people were getting pissed.
warren..
Ed Mercier
Wisconsin a long time ago. They had an advance signup sheet and one of the
names on the list was Jeff Carter. Everyone in the bar was jabbering back
and forth, "do you really think it's Jeff Carter? Why would Jeff Carter be
playing in a $10 tournament." and on and on. Of course it was Jeff Carter,
only not THAT Jeff Carter. The guy seemed pretty surprised to find out he
shared his name with a pretty famous Professional Pool Player.
--
Sincerely, Ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Mercier Please Playpool.com
President Mail P.O. Box 716
http://playpool.com Your Milwaukee, WI 53201-0716
e...@playpool.com Fliers Phone 262-502-9354 Fax 9361
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Warren Lushia" <wal...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu> wrote in message
news:3C513F7E...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu...
Warren Lushia
Ed Mercier wrote:
> I remember playing in a little rinky dink tournament somewhere in Northern
> Wisconsin a long time ago. They had an advance signup sheet and one of the
> names on the list was Jeff Carter. Everyone in the bar was jabbering back
> and forth, "do you really think it's Jeff Carter? Why would Jeff Carter be
> playing in a $10 tournament." and on and on. Of course it was Jeff Carter,
> only not THAT Jeff Carter. The guy seemed pretty surprised to find out he
> shared his name with a pretty famous Professional Pool Player.
good story ed, but the player in the tourney i was speaking of was not on the
level of jeff carter! funny thing is though, one of the players i said "had a
decent chance of beating him" now plays in viking tourney events and gave
ronnie wiseman a run for his money at the lexington viking tour championships!
oh yeah, they both destroyed me badly!! and there were 5-6 others about the
same speed. it was a tough little tourney! i just played to learn, although i
cashed a couple of times.
warren..
Jim White
"Ed Mercier" <emer...@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:3c516560$0$35578$272e...@news.execpc.com...
> The guy seemed pretty surprised to find out he
> shared his name with a pretty famous Professional Pool Player.
>
I know the feeling that guy had.
Jim (Jimmie White)
Jay Brown
I have a chart for all sizes thru 128 players. I tried to e-mail it,
but got "host unknown" message. Please check your address, or post a
snail mail address and I will mail to you.
Thanks.
Jay
Fred Agnir
> I remember playing in a little rinky dink tournament somewhere in Northern
> Wisconsin a long time ago. They had an advance signup sheet and one of the
> names on the list was Jeff Carter. Everyone in the bar was jabbering back
> and forth, "do you really think it's Jeff Carter? Why would Jeff Carter be
> playing in a $10 tournament." and on and on. Of course it was Jeff Carter,
> only not THAT Jeff Carter. The guy seemed pretty surprised to find out he
> shared his name with a pretty famous Professional Pool Player.
>
This goes with part of my "why this game can't get ahead" thread. In
other sports, there is a connection between the mass of amateurs and
the small number of professionals. Any amateur basketball player who
plays small tournaments would know the connection, if his name was ,
say, Vince Carter. There is no such connection with the great
majority of amateur pool players.
Fred
Ninebal310
>but got "host unknown" message. Please check your address, or post a
>snail mail address and I will mail to you.
>Thanks.
>Jay
>
>
Hi Jay,
Thanks! The reason you got "host unknown" is because of the extension on
my email address. It should be nineb...@aol.com, but I added "mitted" to it
so that I don't get so much spam.
I have received a couple different methods to bye orders. I am seeing that
there is a pattern that is easily figured out.
Let me add that I also downloaded a file from Playpool.com that will run a
tournament. It is a GREAT little program that only took me a few minutes to
learn. The charts they have are really good. And Kinkos enlarged them for me
from a disc. The only complaint I ahve about them is that the "BYE" order isn't
on them. But that is not a big deal now that I know the proper way to do it.
Thanks Again,
Hustlin' Hank
Ed Mercier
change I am going to make to all the charts...
(in addition to including a COPYRIGHT symbol and notice. They are
copyrighted people, even without that written on them. PLEASE do not alter
them in any way but use them as we created them. If you don't want to use
our charts, use someone else's. Just don't modify ours.)
ooops, got off the subject, is include a bye order on the charts. It will
simply be written something like this:
bye order - 1,16,4,12,....
I apologize for not having done it already.
Sincerely, Ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Mercier Please Playpool.com
President Mail P.O. Box 716
http://playpool.com Your Milwaukee, WI 53201-0716
e...@playpool.com Fliers Phone 262-502-9354 Fax 9361
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ninebal310" <nineb...@aol.committed> wrote in message
news:20020125131047...@mb-de.aol.com...
Q-Ball
>
> So the player that arrived on time, and was fortunate enough to receive a
> bye in the original draw, instead has to watch a late player rob him out of
> his good fortune? In my humble opinion, you have a start time, you do the
> draw. Once one name has been put on the chart, the tournament is closed.
That's one way to so it, and it might have some advantages. But
it also lowers the purse. Allowing latecomers to fill byes
increases the total purse. Getting a bye is chance, not skill
which is what tournaments are supposed to be about. Allowing
byes to be filled until a game in the second round starts would
seem to disadvantage no one. All it would mean is fewer or no
players get a free pass which elsewise would give them an
advantage over players who didn't draw a bye.
Q-Ball
different order. The main thing as Bob points out is that the
match places total 1 more than the chart, iow, the first level
match places of an 8 player chart would total 9, a 16 player
chart 17, a 32 player chart 33, a 64 player chart 65 etc.
Once that is understood, all that remains is to spread the first
half of the players as the second half is fixed as a matching
pair to one of the first players.
build from a 2 player spread by adding another player space for
each. that puts 1 in the first bracket and 2 in the second.
1 ___
2 ___|---
1 ___
4 ___|--- (1+4=5)
|___
2 ___ |
3 ___|--- (2+3=5)
for the next level, 8 players just add another player space
following this order for each of these 4 and make the initial
matching = 9:
1 ___
8 ___|--- (1+8=9)
|___
4 ___ | |
5 ___|--- | (4+5=9)
|___
2 ___ |
7 ___|--- | (2+7=9)
|___|
3 ___ |
6 ___|--- (3+6=9)
etc. Just expand each level in this order by adding another
space for each slot, then making the initial match pair place
numbers total to 1 more than the number of spaces on the chart.
Byes are then evenly spread. For 5 players, using the above
chart for 8, players 1, 2 and 3 would get byes for slots 6, 7
and 8. Player 4 would draw the only 1st level match. If
another player is allowed to join before the second round, they
would get slot 6 against player 3.
This method also spreads seeded players. If 4 players were
seeded, you will notice that they would not be match against
each other in the first round.