Pool hall - business question/advice
EightBaller
a pool hall.
How much money would be required to say, open up a place with
say, 6 small tables, starting from scratch.
How profitable could it potentially be?
I know those are probably pretty general questions, but it's a
dream of mine, and being out of work these days, causes one's
brain to come up with many "crazy" ideas :)
Thanks,
Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Robert Klein
email me and we can talk.
Bob Klein
Lowleft
of special attractions. At least one weekly tournament (handicap will draw more
players) and an 8-ball league. I would want at least ten tables. Regarding
costs, that's not my department, but you could probably meet with a couple of
room owners who would let you pick their brain for a lunch. Good luck!
Gene Miller, San Franciso tournament director since 1980, National Pool League
director, and former editor of Cue Sports Journal
EightBaller
Yes, talking with current pool hall owners in the area is a wise
choice.
I'd definitely make it a classy place. I've seen places where
one part is pool tables and the other part is a big screen tv and
general meeting/talking place, but I don't know if I would go
that route or not.
I'd make sure the tables were levelled and reclothed every year
though to keep them in tip top shape and tournaments are a must.
JoeyA
JoeyA
Lowleft <low...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000727093535...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
Jim White
brought back in.
Vacuum the tables each and every day. May have to replace Simonis more than
once a year.
Be sure and have good lighting too.
Jim
"EightBaller" <markjorg...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:16d973fe...@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com...
JR.
<markjorg...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
things you have to remember it is "ALOT OF WORK RUNNING
A POOL HALL "!!!
>I was wondering if anyone out there knows what it is like to own
>a pool hall.
>How much money would be required to say, open up a place with
>say, 6 small tables, starting from scratch.
>
>How profitable could it potentially be?
>
>I know those are probably pretty general questions, but it's a
>dream of mine, and being out of work these days, causes one's
>brain to come up with many "crazy" ideas :)
>
>Thanks,
Bvinco
>>a pool hall.
It's the best job you could have. It's also time consuming and requires a lot
of hard work if you wish to succeed (just like anything else).
>>How much money would be required to say, open up a place with
>>say, 6 small tables, starting from scratch.
Why do you want to have 6 small tables?
It depends on whether you own or lease the building/space, if you buy new or
used tables or lease them, how much "atmosphere" you want, type of lighting,
what kind of licenses and permits you have to have, if you're going to sell
food and how many choices of drinks (oven, freezer, coolers, etc.), are you
going to have tables and chairs around, lease or buy a jukebox and/or other
entertainment, you also need balls, trays, bridges, house cues, racks, chalk,
etc., are you going to do repair work or have a small "pro" shop... before you
can have any idea about how much money you need, you have to have the "plan".
>>How profitable could it potentially be?
Location is very important. Area income helps, too. How much time are you
willing to actually work yourself? Come up with leagues, tournaments and
anything else (within the law, of course) you can think of to bring them in.
Good luck,
Becky
John Walkup
>
> Thanks Gene,
>
> I'd definitely make it a classy place. I've seen places where
> one part is pool tables and the other part is a big screen tv and
> general meeting/talking place, but I don't know if I would go
> that route or not.
> I'd make sure the tables were levelled and reclothed every year
> though to keep them in tip top shape and tournaments are a must.
Why are tournaments a must? Many of the better pool halls in this
area don't have them, and most of the owners I have talked to claim
they make almost nothing off them.
John
Karla Chorny
money to rent the place, then they'll want to know the details
of what you plan to do, then they'll steal your idea and open
their own pool hall (but screw it up horribly!).
If you can buy a building, do it. You need lots of space,
central location and lots of parking.
You'll need a business plan, all of your equipment costs, an
idea of what your monthly bills will be, a starting inventory
and the cost. Unless you have oodles of cash and don't need
to borrow any...
Get the new room package that the BCA sells. It has a lot of
the info you'll need to do the business plan, and lots of tips
on how to run this kind of business right. It's about $100.
I spent over 5 months last year getting all of these details
worked out, only to have the landlord of the space I was going
to use do exactly what I mentioned above.
Karla
JoeyA
get. If they want some pool players hanging around I say, "NO PROBLEM!"
Pool time in New York: $12 per hour, in New Orleans it is $3.00 per hour.
How much where you are at?
JoeyA
Bvinco <bvi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000727132029...@ng-cb1.aol.com...
Michael
You don't make money off the tournament, you make money selling drinks
and food and table time when the tourney participants come back and
bring in their friends. Where I've been playing in a tourney, the entry
fee is paid right back to the winners, no rent for table time for the
tourney participants. All I buy when I'm playing in the tourney is for
a soda, or maybe I'll stop in the small pro shop and buy some supplies
or a book or video or a new cue. I also go back and practice during the
week, lately during the afternoon, and rent table time and usually a
soda and sometimes food.
The tourney generates local activity in the sport, which in turn brings
people in during non-tourney hours.
Patrick Johnson
> and food and table time when the tourney participants come back and
> bring in their friends.
I think this is right. In fact, every room owner I've talked to about
it (a few) says the profits from side sales don't even cover the lost
income from the tournament tables. Especially with money added, they're
money losers, yet they're worth doing to heighten the "buzz" about the
room.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Bvinco
There's more to it than just "trying" to make money off the tournaments or even
having these people come back to pay for table time another night (they
probably would anyway). Anytime you have a lot of bodies in the room, it's
good. People see people, they see cars in the parking lot, they see a place
that's doing well (at least as far as they can see, it is), they want to come
there. Success (or the appearance of it) breeds success.
Becky
Wyatt186
generating" ability of a six table operation you may want to go back to the
drawing board (now I'm assume were talking "no booze"). "If" you open at noon
and close at 2AM thats 14 hours of "cash generating" hours that somebody (you
or an employee) has to be there to run the operation. "If" you pay $6 an hour
that is $84 a day (actually it is more like $120 when you add in FICA,
unemployment, state and federal taxes etc..etc..). The room is not going to be
busy when you first open up. You can probably expect to average about $200 to
$250 a day in a 6 table operation (the tables can only generate $30 to $40 an
hour when your "full up" (even when you add in a little snack and soda sales).
It is true that in the winter you might be doing $400-$500 a day but it is off
set by the summer when your doing $80-$100 a day. That is approx. $7500 a month
($90,000 a year). For a 6 table operation you need at least 2000 sq.ft. even at
$10 a sq.ft. (cheap in most locations) that is about $1650 a month in rent (not
counting CAM=common area maintenance). Now add your approx. $3600 a month in
payroll. That is $5250 a month and you have before gas, electric insurance
etc..etc..etc.. Your only getting $7500 a month gross. You have not even added
in maintenance and repair (re-cloth, house cue replacement, toliet paper
etc..etc..). Now your going through all this PLUS your initial investment to
break even and make $6 an hour. It takes just as many guys to run a 15 table
operation as a 6 table operation.......Go back to the drawing board and come
back with a bigger operation. If your serious I'll try to help you by walking
you through ALL the stuff you have to negotiate and/or buy (E-Mail me direct)
because there are a "BIZILLION" things you have to consider. Good Luck! JPL
(Red Shoes Billiards)
Patrick Johnson
> "If" you pay $6 an hour that is $84 a day (actually it is more like $120 when
> you add in FICA, unemployment, state and federal taxes etc..etc..).
John, there's a coupla typos in there. $6 an hour is only $48 for an
8-hour day, and employer paid taxes add less than 10% to salary cost
(the rest of the taxes are deducted from the employee's $48). So the
total daily cost for this employee is less than half the $120 you
estimated, assuming no health insurance or other benefits (low-paid
employees don't usually get them).
Just glancing, the rest of your figures look right to me, and your
main point is right on the money: you need more than 6 tables (unless
you own the space free and clear or can get $20/hour for table time).
The analysis you propose is also right: costs are only half the
picture -- you also have to estimate revenues.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Otto
assuming 100-200k at least) can make you more in a diversified portfolio of
stocks and bonds, why not do that and hang out at the hall. If you want to
double your fun, work your way into a job or management position. The only
thing you'll be lacking is that pride of ownership(worth something) but
you'll be able to leave the place with no headaches.
The cash flow side(income statement) is important to keep your head above
water but the big picture is how does the snapshot(balance sheet) of the
pool hall look as you progress from quarter to quarter and year to year. Are
the assets outgrowing the liabilities(owner equity increasing) or is it the
other way around.
If you don't have lots of start up capital the bank or investors will want
all this information. They do not want to lose their money.
Otto
"Patrick Johnson" <REMO...@21stCentury.net> wrote in message
news:39818965...@21stCentury.net...
WCrimi
What is the standard or range of prices paid for the typical poolroom that is
already up and running?
Is it some multiple of earnings over an above salaries need to run the place
(including your own if you work there)?
The replacment cost? (how much it would cost to build it from scratch)
A mutiple of revenue?
Patrick Johnson
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Wyatt186
work it. Assuming you are paying yourself the 6 bucks an hour (that you would
pay the employee) it still comes out to $84 a day.The actual cost per day is
7.65% FICA ($6.42), .8% federal unemployment ($.67), 1.9% state unemployment
($1.59) plus $.32 an hour workmans comp. at a poolrooms SIC ($4.48). That is
$97.16 in actual out of pocket "payroll" expense for keeping a person behind
the counter for 14 hours. When you add in things like "vacation" for a full
time employee (or yourself), plus insurance (again for you or an employee).
$120 a day in "counterman" expenses is about right. Now add whatever "snacks"
you (or your employee) might help yourself to during the course of the day.
Remember if your going to be working the counter on a shift "YOU" are one of
those "low-paid" employees. "UNLESS" you are going to be an "absentee owner".
BUT....if that was the case...."WHY" would you want to own a poolroom. That is
"WHY" I calculate health insurance and vacation pay into our equation. I have
not figured in "sick time" or a "Christmas bonus". So Pat I appreciate the
review of my "figures" which I still stand by. But in case I missed something
in your review and you know how "I" can reduce my "employee" costs to $48 a
day....I am certainly willing to listen to any "new" ideas you might have come
up with. Talk to you soon (I hope). Regards, John Lavin (Red Shoes Billiards)
S0ftlips
>
>What is the standard or range of prices paid for the typical poolroom that is
>already up and running?
From a couple of sales I've seen, the purchase price has been based on
equipment and inventory... sometimes a little extra for the turnkey
operation...
lfigueroa
about running a pool room, a nice, civil, well documented answer -- after
they've questioned his numbers -- and then have the balls to tell him to
"take a pill." That takes it.
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <REMO...@21stCentury.net> wrote in message
news:39825EA7...@21stCentury.net...
WCrimi
I'd like to flip the question around a little.
Assume I open a poolroom and have someone else running it most of the time.
I only want to stop in a couple of times a week to check things out, inspect
the tables, play, socialize, help a little etc...
If I invested 200K (give or take), how much would an average fairly successful
operation net me annually.
Wyatt186
have to be calculated in our figures also. The "average prescription" cost in
the upper midwest is $27.90. Assuming I would have to take one "pill" a day,
that comes out to an additional $.93. Of course if I have to take it more than
once a day or if it an OTC medication, all those figures would change. JPL
Patrick Johnson
> Pat...."Take a pill"?
Yeah, John. That means don't get so huffy because I corrected one of
your assumptions. Are you telling me you didn't get tight about it?
Are you telling me employer paid taxes are more than I say? I'm an
employer in Illinois and I know the law and the numbers and your figures
about employer paid taxes are wrong. They still are, despite your
huffing and puffing.
I did say I agreed with the rest of your thoughts, but I guess that
didn't register.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Patrick Johnson
> Wow. A pool room owner gives someone who obviously doesn't know anything
> about running a pool room, a nice, civil, well documented answer -- after
> they've questioned his numbers -- and then have the balls to tell him to
> "take a pill." That takes it.
I don't know... maybe jumping into a conversation which *you* know
nothing about takes it. I'm an employer in John's state and have been
for decades. Are you? I've also had a pool room (although that has
nothing to do with what I corrected). Have you? In short, do you know
anything about this? Or are you just fanning flames?
Pat Johnson
Chicago
lfigueroa
not it). Your little foot stomping makes it pretty clear who is off their
meds. To spell it out for you: I think it's you that needs to take that
infamous little pill, and I doubt that taking it orally would be the most
effective way to treat that stick you have up your ass :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <REMO...@21stCentury.net> wrote in message
news:39831386...@21stCentury.net...
Bradley E. Robertson
Patrick Johnson
Pat Johnson
Chicago
> > anything about this? Or are you just fanning flames?
> >
> > Pat Johnson
> > Chicago
Patrick Johnson
I just realized that I misread your original post, and I misread your
followup post, and on top of that I was wrong about the taxes. My
apologies for all those mistakes, and the trouble they started. You
clearly know your business better than I.
I'm going to my room now.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <REMO...@21stCentury.net> wrote in message
news:398354F2...@21stCentury.net...
lfigueroa
I would print out this post, frame it, and keep it behind the counter. If
Pat ever comes into Red Shoes, have him autograph it:
you've now got a one of a kind :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <REMO...@21stCentury.net> wrote in message
news:39835783...@21stCentury.net...
Patrick Johnson
> Pat ever comes into Red Shoes, have him autograph it:
>
> you've now got a one of a kind :-)
>
> Lou Figueroa
Except for the one you kept, I guess. What's this fascination with my
social interactions, Lou? If you're working up to asking me out, I'm
flattered, but married.
I do plan to go into Red Shoes and meet John some day, though (if he'll
admit me). Maybe he'll even show up at the RSB tourney.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Smorgass Bored
during the holidays and put some up on ebay....
<previously on Chicago Hope>
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Wyatt186
having a little fun (shows you how dull things can be in a pool room). Although
I hope "some" posts I read on RSB are correct to the "letter". I always wanted
to have a "penis my lover would dream of", but that is another story. Regards,
John Lavin
lfigueroa
shit any less? Careful on that one, seeing as how you just played my girl
Friday in another thread :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <REMO...@21stCentury.net> wrote in message
news:39836673...@21stCentury.net...
JR.
<markjorg...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
It"s a bitch you will not make any money for at less two
year so can we stop this thread please? JR.
>I was wondering if anyone out there knows what it is like to own
>a pool hall.
>How much money would be required to say, open up a place with
>say, 6 small tables, starting from scratch.
>
>How profitable could it potentially be?
>
>I know those are probably pretty general questions, but it's a
>dream of mine, and being out of work these days, causes one's
>brain to come up with many "crazy" ideas :)
>
>Thanks,
>Mark
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
>Up to 100 minutes free!
>http://www.keen.com
>
John Walkup
>
> John
>
> I would print out this post, frame it, and keep it behind the counter. If
> Pat ever comes into Red Shoes, have him autograph it:
If I ever admit a mistake you could probably sell copies of it to
disbelieving viewers. :)
John
PS: First, I have to make a mistake, of course. That alone would be
a collector's item.
Patrick Johnson
> are you claiming that you get in my
> shit any less?
I've disagreed with things you've said, but by your own admission you
had nothing to say about the topic at hand; you were simply standing on
the sidelines yelling "Fight!" Sorry we disappointed you. You'll have
to start one of your own.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
EightBaller
last 1/3 of these responses have been somewhat off topic.
I started this thread and I just now read all the responses
thanks to my lovely Rogers cable modem connection being down for
a good many days.
I don't know what made my come up with a 6 table place, I just
thought it was a good number.
Has anyone had any experience buying a currently operating hall?
I'm also in the Toronto, Canada area, so I'd be looking to open
in a somewhat less populated (but still busy) area, perhaps west
of the city.
Can anyone give a general run-down of price for certain things,
such as:
6 tables + accessories
leasing a building and renovating and decorating
meter counters for table time
perhaps a small bar with liquor license
Just want to get a general idea.
Appreciate it,
Mountain Mike^^
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:f3Kg5.3251>
you've now got a one of a kind :-)
>
No shit. This thing would sell on eBay for zillions! Signed (and
authenticated) a find like this comes up maybe once in a lifetime.
But......I think I'll pass. He can always change his mind, right? MM^^
lfigueroa
I admitted nothing, except perhaps, in whatever fantasyland you were able
to wrench that poorly conceived conclusion from.
And, I was far from disappointed :-)
Lou Figueroa
"Patrick Johnson" <REMO...@21stCentury.net> wrote in message
news:3984813F...@21stCentury.net...
lfigueroa
If I ever see an admission of error from you posted here to this group,
truly, I will know the apocalypse is near.
Lou Figueroa
"John Walkup" <cue...@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:398458...@telepath.com...
Bvinco
>such as:
>6 tables + accessories
>leasing a building and renovating and decorating
>meter counters for table time
>perhaps a small bar with liquor license
I can appreciate what you want to do and I wish I'd had this forum to use when
I was opening my pool room, but because of so many varibles, some things you're
just going to have to do the old fashioned way.... research them yourself.
You can get a computer program for keeping track of table time for about $500,
but that's also a general figure, depending on exactly what and how much you
want the program to do.
The tables, accessories, building, renovations, bar and liquor license are all
subject to new, used, where, how big, what area, own, lease and/or local laws
and the going price (and probably some other things as well).
Becky
Jim White
opening.
Becky is right - there are too many variables in this equation for it to be
solved without leg work on your part.
Jim
"Bvinco" <bvi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000731084043...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
Dave
I suggest that you find a place that you like ( booze or no
booze, youngsters or top players) and work there part time - get a
feel for the cash flow and late nights, run tournaments, clean
spilled drinks, try to get cash out of customers that have played
for 4 hours with friends and are broke, loudmouths and drunks, etc.
Since you are retired - most pool hall owners are always looking
for an honest person to tend the cash register. You can be honest
with the owner about your goals, you may get some good advice with
the experience.
Dave
platt.hom...@gmail.com
> I was wondering if anyone out there knows what it is like to own
> a pool hall.
> How much money would be required to say, open up a place with
> say, 6 small tables, starting from scratch.
>
> How profitable could it potentially be?
>
> I know those are probably pretty general questions, but it's a
> dream of mine, and being out of work these days, causes one's
> brain to come up with many "crazy" ideas :)
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
PTB Open from 1000 - 0200 In-Use 16 7 30 52
Pool Table Fees 8
Standard 4.5 x 9 (16ea) 16 128 2,048 14,336 61,440 745,472
Standard 5 x 10 (1 ea) 1 8 128 896 3,840 46,592
Snooker 6 x 12 (1ea) 1 8 128 896 3,840 46,592
Pool Table Fees Total 144 2,304 16,128 69,120 838,656