New Jump Cue Tips
Ed McCune
ferule/tip type of thing. No chalk used, just rough it up and go. It
jumps phenomenally. My grandmother could make a legal hit with these. i
asked at the booth if they were legal, as there is not even a pretense
of putting ground leather into them, and was told they were. Are they?
I've nothing against jump cues particularly but these seem almost like
cheating. Pretty much no skill required. Is this really a good thing?
Why not just have spring loaded jump cues so you don't have to stroke it
either, just cock it and let er rip. Or just let iron willy do it for you.
Ed
Studeman
Ed McCune wrote:
Am I to assume you have never missed a jump-shot with this cue? ;-)
The "jumping" part is pretty easily learned... even with a standard
cue..... It's the speed, distance traveled, aim, etc... that has
everything to do with skill and talent and nothing at all to do with the
stick or it's tip. I'm fairly proficient at jumping, but actually
pocketing the ball seems to elude me (LOL) :-) .
I'd agree that as far as making a "good hit", the phonelic jump-tip is
an efficient product. But it just doesn't mean you are going to pocket
balls with it.... you can't win if ya can't make 'em...
Ray
Ed McCune
skill to pocket the ball but pocketing was not what I was referring to.
Shouldn't it take at least a bit of skill just to make a fair hit? I saw
guys with no jumping experience down there making fair hits from an inch
away from the blocking ball. How good a safety should you have to play?
I didn't mind the old partially leather tips as much as it wasn't quite
so easy to make a fair jump with them but these completely phenolic ones
are a bit of a joke. Doesn't the BCA specs call for at least a composite
leather tip or is that no longer the rule?
Ed
Jack Stein
> A friend bought a jump cue in Vegas with no tip. It just has a phenolic
> ferule/tip type of thing. No chalk used, just rough it up and go. It
> jumps phenomenally. My grandmother could make a legal hit with these. i
> asked at the booth if they were legal, as there is not even a pretense
> of putting ground leather into them, and was told they were. Are they?
Are they legal in the US, Canada, Europe? BCA, WPA, APA,VNEA, Texas
Express, Joes Bar, The Moose Club or just where are you asking? Jump
Cues are illigal themselves some places, so the tip material is moot.
> I've nothing against jump cues particularly but these seem almost like
> cheating. Pretty much no skill required.
I personally think jump cues suck. I don't mind jumping but use the cue
you started with. Break cues don't bother me because I don't think they
give any advantage. Paying for the ability to jump simply by buying a
specialty cue, and a specialty case to carry it, doesn't impress me.
Jumping over a ball is 90% equipment, 10% skill. The game is played
just fine without jump cues ever entering the arena.
Is this really a good thing?
No.
> Why not just have spring loaded jump cues so you don't have to stroke it
> either, just cock it and let er rip. Or just let iron willy do it for you.
I'd like to know why the BCA allows jump cues, but forbids jumping with
just your shaft? Think about that while worrying about tip material,
which is supposed to be "leather like" or some dumb thing.
--
Jack
http://jbstein.com
Ed McCune
particularly wrong with improving equipment. I'm sure the first guy to
use a leather tip got flak from the non-tip crowd for making things too
easy. (Anybody can draw a cue ball with that thing on the end. Just try
drawing with a wooden tip and see how good you are...type of fink.) On
the other hand there is a good reason aluminum bats are not allowed in
MLB. Makes everyone into a home run hitter. That is what I see these
totally phenolic tips doing. The old instroke tips weren't quite so easy
to jump with.
Ed
Dhakala
Ed McCune wrote:
> A friend bought a jump cue in Vegas with no tip. It just has a phenolic
> ferule/tip type of thing. No chalk used, just rough it up and go. It
> jumps phenomenally. My grandmother could make a legal hit with these. i
> asked at the booth if they were legal, as there is not even a pretense
> of putting ground leather into them, and was told they were. Are they?
The Zen Cueist notes that the Four-Bank Path to Enlightenment and
Correct Thinking is 2-dimensional. A properly trained adept will never
need or wish to jump a cue ball. Jumpers have strayed from the Path
into error and disharmony.
APA bans jump cues altogether. Page 40, APA Team Manual, para. 33:
"Those cues especially designed for jump shots MAY NOT be used in
competition."
BCA tournament equipment specs state:
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_spec
17. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially
processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the
natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when
the shot is executed.
VNEA doesn't seem to address equipment specs at all.
http://www.vneapool.com/rules-regs.htm
Your local venue rules may vary. If so, find a new dojo.
Jack Stein
> As I said I have no beef against jump cues in general.
As I said I think they suck in general. I make it a point not to
applaud or congradulate anyone jumping a ball unless the shot was
special besides being a jumper.
> Nothing particularly wrong with improving equipment.
Nothing particularly right with improving equipment either. Some ideas
are good, some suck. Laser guided, spring loaded cues would be an
improvement, but, the idea sucks.
> I'm sure the first guy to use a leather tip got flak from the non-tip crowd for making things too
> easy.
Everyone (you and John Barton Collins at least) use this as an argument,
but, I wonder how true it is in reality. I reckon some day when your
robot gets up to shoot my robot with a laser guided GPS shooting device,
some fool while bitch about all the improvements ruining the game.
> On the other hand there is a good reason aluminum bats are not allowed in
> MLB. Makes everyone into a home run hitter. That is what I see these
> totally phenolic tips doing. The old instroke tips weren't quite so easy
> to jump with.
Thats a big arguement against jump cues, they turn everyone into a great
jumper for only $100. Another is one guy has a big advantage over
another guy because he happened to buy a jump cue and the other guy
forgot to bring his, or bought a shitty one, or, like me, just thinks
they add little to the game.
--
Jack
http://jbstein.com
Ron Shepard
Ed McCune <mcc...@telusplanetnospam.net> wrote:
> On
> the other hand there is a good reason aluminum bats are not allowed in
> MLB. Makes everyone into a home run hitter.
I saw someone talk about this a couple of years ago, and his
conclusion is that aluminum bats would increase batting averages,
but they would decrease the number of home runs. He seemed to have
ample evidence of this, from college and little league baseball to
softball to controlled experiments with various types of bats.
Aluminum bats have a larger sweet spot, but they don't transfer
energy as well to the ball.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Mail Man
>
> A friend bought a jump cue in Vegas with no tip. It just has a phenolic
> ferule/tip type of thing. No chalk used, just rough it up and go. It
> jumps phenomenally. My grandmother could make a legal hit with these. i
> asked at the booth if they were legal, as there is not even a pretense
> of putting ground leather into them, and was told they were. Are they?
>
Finally, the REAL ANSWER to your original question:
WPA Tournament Table & Equipment Specifications:
"17. Cue Sticks
"...
"The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the
addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of
specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that
extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue
ball when the shot is executed.
"..."
These phenolic tips qualify SOLELY because they are actually LBP, or
"linen-based phenolic," in construction (" ... other fibrous ...").
However, many uninformed tnmt directors are not aware of, or do not
consider, the part of the rule stating "scratch or damage the addressed
ball." While these tips, by a stretched technicality in construction,
qualify under WPA/BCA Rules, they should, nonetheless, be DISQUALIFIED, as
they ARE HARD ENOUGH to damage the surface of the cueball.
I am not aware of the exact equipment specifications of any of the other
sanctioning bodies, but my impression is that they do not allow this tip and
that MOST outright forbid the use of a jump cue at all! Therefore, whether
or not this is illegal is actually a decsion to be made by the director of
each individual tournament and, just here in WA St. alone, it has been my
experience that this varies WIDELY from tournament to tournament.
It is to the point that you must now inform yourself of this BEFORE you even
APPLY for an entry into any given tournament! I personally WILL NOT play in
a tournament that allows these LBP tips, although I grudgingly play in
tournaments that allow other jump cues.
Mike Collier <--- awaits the day jump cues are outlawed altogether
Oak Harbor, WA
Jack Stein
> "Ed McCune" wrote:
>
>>A friend bought a jump cue in Vegas with no tip. It just has a phenolic
>>ferule/tip type of thing. No chalk used, just rough it up and go. It
>>jumps phenomenally. My grandmother could make a legal hit with these. i
>>asked at the booth if they were legal, as there is not even a pretense
>>of putting ground leather into them, and was told they were. Are they?
> Finally, the REAL ANSWER to your original question:
Actually, my answer was the REAL ANSWER because in reality, legality of
the tip would depend on which rule set you wish to use. As far as I
know, the WPA does not determine pool rules for the world just because
they use the word in their name. The perfect example was jump cues
themselves are often banned (APA). When legal issues relating to pool
are asked, one MUST specify of which governing body the question is
being asked. IS it legal? Guaranteed it is legal somewhere, doesn't
matter what the question is.
Also, since he also asked if jump cues were really a good thing, the
REAL ANSWER to that was also given... no!:-)
--
Jack
http://jbstein.com
Ed McCune
like tips and took chalk and you could even play regular shots with them
in a pinch. These new LBP ones (as you call them) are a bit of a joke.
The buddy who bought one ran up to me and said, "Did you see the new
jump cues with NO TIPS. Any fool can jump with this." When he said no
tip I had to look. He's right in that it looks like it has no tip. They
certainly don't look at all fibrous. They just look hard and look like
they would scuff or damage the cue ball. The original bungee tips were a
bit of a stretch but they didn't turn a banger into a jumper over night.
These ones, though, I think shouldn't be allowed.
Ed
Dhakala
Mail Man wrote:
> WPA Tournament Table & Equipment Specifications:
>
> "17. Cue Sticks
>
> "...
>
> "The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the
> addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of
> specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that
> extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue
> ball when the shot is executed.
> These phenolic tips qualify SOLELY because they are actually LBP, or
> "linen-based phenolic," in construction (" ... other fibrous ...").
LBP is no more a "fibrous" material because it's derived from linen
than rubber is a fibrous material because it's derived from a rubber
tree. "Fibrous" means "a : containing, consisting of, or resembling
fibers b : characterized by fibrosis c : capable of being separated
into fibers <a fibrous mineral>."
"Phenolic sheet is a hard, dense material made by applying heat and
pressure to layers of paper or glass cloth impregnated with synthetic
resin. These layers of laminations are usually of cellulose paper,
cotton fabrics, synthetic yarn fabrics, glass fabrics or unwoven
fabrics. When heat and pressure are applied to the layers, a chemical
reaction (polymerization) transforms the layers into a high-pressure
thermosetting industrial laminated plastic."
You might as well claim that petrified wood is fibrous.
The clear intent of the WPA rule above is to specify a material that is
resilient "pliable" material that yields upon impact, to prevent damage
to the ball or table.
Phenolic tips are forbidden by WPA rules. Jump cues are banned by APA.
The VNEA doesn't seem to care what equipment is used. Other ruling
bodies are essentially negligible.
Cornerman
Dhakala wrote:
> "Phenolic sheet is a hard, dense material made by applying heat and
> pressure to layers of paper or glass cloth impregnated with synthetic
> resin. These layers of laminations are usually of cellulose paper,
> cotton fabrics, synthetic yarn fabrics, glass fabrics or unwoven
> fabrics. When heat and pressure are applied to the layers, a chemical
> reaction (polymerization) transforms the layers into a high-pressure
> thermosetting industrial laminated plastic."
>
> You might as well claim that petrified wood is fibrous.
>
> The clear intent of the WPA rule above is to specify a material that is
> resilient "pliable" material that yields upon impact, to prevent damage
> to the ball or table.
>
> Phenolic tips are forbidden by WPA rules. Jump cues are banned by APA.
> The VNEA doesn't seem to care what equipment is used. Other ruling
> bodies are essentially negligible.
I wonder if they should do away with the "fibrous" wording?
There's always going to be a loophole. As long as there is glue to bond
the tips, there will always be the opportunity to make a hard tip that
doesn't resemble a pliable leather, even if it's made of leather.
Fred <~~~ no answers
Ed McCune
Cornerman wrote:
> There's always going to be a loophole. As long as there is glue to bond
> the tips, there will always be the opportunity to make a hard tip that
> doesn't resemble a pliable leather, even if it's made of leather.
>
This is the thing that blew me away, though, Fred. There was no tip per
se. Just what looked like a super hard ferrule with the end covered
over. You can't even chalk them. You just rough them up with a metal
file. Shouldn't it least look like a tip?
Ed
Dhakala
Fred, I think the APA came up with the answer: one cue per game (unless
the tip flies off or something). Pool ain't golf.