APA Defensive Shots
dave y.
statement:
"A Safety is defensive action taken when a player has no makeable, or
high percentge shot, or chooses to leave his opponent in a difficult
situation. Safeties are ethical, yet intentionally missed shots."
1. Is this true, that if the shooter has no reasonable possibility of
making a ball, that you mark a safety against him?
What would you have to do to avoid a defense mark against you if you
don't have a pocket, just bang the balls hard or can you try a shot
some APA players wouldn't know was possible (say like following balls
in, caroms, or whatever)?
2. The video gave an example where the shooter took a shot that was
cheating the pocket and probably most times wouldn't go, but might
depending on the table, and at the same time left himself safe. The
video said this was a defensive shot. Sounds to me like the APA just
outlawed 2-way shots. And what if the ball drops, do you still count
it a defensive shot? If not, why not?
What do ya think?
dave y.
Billy Bob
>I was watching the APA video on scoring defensive shots and I saw this
> statement:
>
> "A Safety is defensive action taken when a player has no makeable, or
> high percentge shot, or chooses to leave his opponent in a difficult
> situation. Safeties are ethical, yet intentionally missed shots."
>
The idea is that you mark a lot of defensive shots for the other team, but
little or none for your team. The score sheets from the two teams do not
need to match so far as defensive shots go.
Defensive shots are a sign of a more skilled player and this will increase
their skill level. So you want your opponent's skill levels to go up, but
your teams skill levels to remain the same or go down.
In "real pool life" and with skilled players, there are pool tournaments
which do not allow safeties. Well don't shoot an obvious safety, rather you
have 6 pockets to choose from to shoot any ball into. Instead of shooting
the ball to the closest pocket, bank it instead so this will leave the cue
ball in a nasty spot (a safety).
You can't help it if you are too dumb to realize that shooting the ball into
the closer pocket would have been a better choice! (He he he.) And you can't
help it if you are not good at banking! (He he he.)
Actually there are plenty of lousy players at these tournaments who do
attempt bank shots when they should be cutting and are not good at banking,
so it looks like normal play to them rather than an expertly designed
safety...
Ron Shepard
"Billy Bob" <billybo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In "real pool life" and with skilled players, there are pool tournaments
> which do not allow safeties.
Not really. Just like there are no "real" basketball games, or
baseball games, or football games that do not allow defense. There
are charity events where celebrities play that do not allow defense,
but those aren't real sporting events. The same goes for pool games
(with the obvious exceptions such as equal offense or fargo). IMO,
of course.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
DMHenrie
operator many times..
First off, there are no "safeties" in APA, there are defensive shots..
(their wording not mine)
Simple rule, if you "the scorekeeper" believe that the person playing did
not attempt to make a ball in a pocket, then it is a defensive shot.
Simple as that..
It is the scorekeepers discretion, and what they believe the shooters intent
was.
Bad part is, a knowledgable higher ranked player/scorekeeper knows better
than a beginner player/scorekeeper what the other persons true intent was.
So a beginner/unknowledgable keeping score screws up the handicaps. And if
you only have one hi-ranked player, then that person gets to accurately keep
score all night. Mucho fun.
The difference I believe in the wording, is a person may intentionally miss,
not to safe someone, but to lower their ranking by increasing innings, if
the defensive shot is not marked.
D shots play a huge part in the computer ranking scheme. Just as innings do.
So if you can get away with increasing innings, without having D's marked,
you'll probably stay a lower ranking. But then of course that would be
cheating ie. sandbagging.
And we know no-one does that
"dave y." <nos...@myhouse.com> wrote in message
news:meceg5l7ab9olf65u...@4ax.com...
Jack Stein
> As a team captain, and a person who asked this question of the league
> operator many times..
> First off, there are no "safeties" in APA, there are defensive shots..
> (their wording not mine)
Sort of true but they call intentionally missed shots either safeties or
sandbagging. Safeties of course are called defensive shots by everyone,
and everyone calls a defensive shot safeties.
> Bad part is, a knowledgable higher ranked player/scorekeeper knows better
> than a beginner player/scorekeeper what the other persons true intent was.
> So a beginner/unknowledgable keeping score screws up the handicaps. And if
> you only have one hi-ranked player, then that person gets to accurately keep
> score all night. Mucho fun.
> The difference I believe in the wording, is a person may intentionally miss,
> not to safe someone, but to lower their ranking by increasing innings, if
> the defensive shot is not marked.
It is rare around here to hear a safety called by any APA player above a
5, so it is about always up to the discretion of the scorekeepers. It's
impossible to be accurate because of 2 way shots, misses that look like
safes.
> D shots play a huge part in the computer ranking scheme. Just as innings do.
> So if you can get away with increasing innings, without having D's marked,
> you'll probably stay a lower ranking. But then of course that would be
> cheating ie. sandbagging.
> And we know no-one does that
APA rules suck to begin with, but, the handicapping system really,
really really sucks. Whats wrong with it you ask.... EVERYTHING!
First it is a bitch to keep score. Counting innings itself sucks, and
few seem to even know when an inning begins and when it ends. I've seen
people start a new inning every game, which can add lots of innings to
your ranking. Safeties are a joke, and my guess is they have never been
accurately counted. Sandbagging does occur of course, but most of it is
because of the screwed up handicapping system to begin with. Since the
ranking go from 3 to 7 and the 5 players can only total up to 23, much
of the problem comes from guys not wanting to kick, or be kicked off the
team. Hard to blame someone for sandbagging because they like their
team and don't want to throw off a player.
I've played in handicapped leagues where NONE of these things are
issues. The best was one that counted balls left and the winner got 10
points, the loser got whatever number of balls he made. The scorekeeper
only had to count balls left at end of game to keep score, simple and
effective, and, anyone could play, and there was little reason to sandbag.
So, imnsho, the only thing good about the APA is Jeanette Lee.
--
Jack
Got Change: God Bless America ====> God damn Amerika!
http://jbstein.com
John Black
says...
> ranking go from 3 to 7 and the 5 players can only total up to 23, much
> of the problem comes from guys not wanting to kick, or be kicked off the
> team. Hard to blame someone for sandbagging because they like their
> team and don't want to throw off a player.
Yeah, this is the worst part. You put together a team of friends and then
if a couple of you get a little better, bam, the team has to be split up.
Its a real problem. The only other solution to breaking up the team is to
add a poor player for the sole purpose of staying under a total of 23 but
then some of the original team has to sit out each week.
John Black
DMHenrie
levels. Lower levels seem to be close.
BCA doesnt work well at all, as we have many tterrible shooters that end up
only being one or two skill rankings behind the best.
APA 9 ball, (which really isnt 9-ball) is prettty accurate overall. On a
given night, with luck, pool gods, and ball lay it can be way off, but
overall I found it close.
Local tournaments, are generally a joke, depending on the tournament
director
Basically, thre really isnt a good handicapping system period. But since we
cant all play in opens, it is what it is
As far as how to score somehow who misses a duck. Ok, we all miss them, but
if the guy is winning 4 games to none, and is about to win this one.. but
then he misses a hanger, and then misses a duck, and then bobbles and
wobbles a couple.. the verdict is in, on miss #2
He's running up innings.
"Jack Stein" <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hf0n6k$7nn$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Jack Stein
> I dont think APA 8 ball handicapping works well, but mostly at the higher
> levels. Lower levels seem to be close.
True because lower levels don't know how to sandbag and they generally
only play safe when someone coaches them.
> BCA doesnt work well at all, as we have many tterrible shooters that end up
> only being one or two skill rankings behind the best.
I never played in a BCA league. I didn't know BCA even had a
handicapping system, I thought they were just sanctioned league with a
league rule set?
> APA 9 ball, (which really isnt 9-ball) is prettty accurate overall. On a
> given night, with luck, pool gods, and ball lay it can be way off, but
> overall I found it close.
My wife has a 9 ball team this year, can't say much about it either way
other than keeping score is a nightmare.
> Basically, thre really isnt a good handicapping system period. But since we
> cant all play in opens, it is what it is
The first league I played in used the 10 points per game system where
the loser got whatever balls were left. They had some goofy formula
that I had figured out once, but can't recall anymore that would give
you a handicap between 20 something and 50. 50 meant you were expected
to win all 5 games, or 50 points a night. No one was a 50 but some were
pretty close. Anyway, it worked great.
Our Tuesday night league is also good. They have 5 divisions with
division 1 the best (A) players, 2 is almost A (B players) and so on.
Anyone can play in any division I guess, but if your team wins, next
session they will move up a division. So a section 2 team could have an
A player and a C player. No one cares because if you win, you will move
up. Each division wins money but the higher the division, the more you
win. If you sandbag, and play in a lower division, you win less money.
The money ain't all that much anyway, and for the most part, people
are happy playing at their level and if anything, want to move up to a
higher level, just for bragging rights, prestige or to measure their
success. The APA does none of that really, mainly because of the cap on
skill levels at 23 for the team.
> As far as how to score somehow who misses a duck. Ok, we all miss them, but
> if the guy is winning 4 games to none, and is about to win this one.. but
> then he misses a hanger, and then misses a duck, and then bobbles and
> wobbles a couple.. the verdict is in, on miss #2
> He's running up innings.
But verdicts don't mean squat for the most part. The problem is good
players don't miss ducks when sandbagging. But keeping score sucks,
it's too complicated and requires to much focus and work. Not a good
thing in a bar game where the real focus should be on fun.
--
Jack
Got Change: 57 States, not counting Alaska and Hawaii!!!
http://jbstein.com