Orchid Cues
Velensky, Lenard
brand at a local shop. I was told that they are made by Falcon. Can you
give me an indication of quality / price etc?
Thanks
twc
wrote:
>Has anybody heard of Orchid cues? I am writing from Canada and see this
>brand at a local shop. I was told that they are made by Falcon. Can you
>give me an indication of quality / price etc?
Orchid cues are made in Taiwan, as are Falcon cues.
Thomas Wayne
Mountain Mike
twc wrote in message <36a4b321...@nntp.alaska.net>...
>
>Orchid cues are made in Taiwan, as are Falcon cues.
>
>Thomas Wayne
You're kidding, right? Some of the Falcon prices I have seen sure wouldn't
indicate they're made in Taiwan. Must be some kinda Gov't conspiracy or
sumpin' MM^^
Hoppsconi
the same quality and should cost about the same as most Taiwan cues (not much).
Dan
Stoney
made in Ontario, Canada
Regards,
Stoney
> Orchid cues are made in Taiwan, as are Falcon cues.
> Thomas Wayne
twc
>I don't know about Orchid Cues but according to Falcon Cues they are
>made in Ontario, Canada
Yeah. That's what they tell people, all right.
Thomas Wayne
Mountain Mike
twc wrote in message <36a5b44...@nntp.alaska.net>...
Stoney, I'll elaborate a little here if it's all right with TW. (I pay for
internet service by the month, TW pays by the word). Anyway, Thomas Wayne
covered this exact subject some time ago. You can (excuse me, while I put on
flak jacket.....) can find out the skinny at Dejanews. In summary, Canada
has relaxed laws concerning product origination compared to the US. They can
import losts more parts and still call it "Made in Canada". From my
experience, I agree. I bought some "Canadian Furniture" awhile back. It
looked VERY SIMILAR to some things made in Bangledesh. I would be VERY
skeptical of a company that does business this way. IMNSHO. MM^^
twc
Collins) wrote:
>Falcon Cues are not made in Taiwan. They are manufactured in Mississauga,
>Canada (Just outside Toronto.) This is easily verifiable. Ernie Chen the
>owner of Falcon Cues is also the owner of KPS which does manufacture
>thousands of cues in Taiwan under various brand names. The Falcon brand is
>made in Canda though.
>
>Been there seen that. Thomas if you want to bet me the price of the plane
>ticket and the hotel we can settle this quickly. We can take a video camera
>and document the whole thing. Then we can do some sort of Clintonian
>rationalization on what constitutes cuemaking if you want to.
Johnny my boy, how long you been off the farm, son? Don't you know a
strawman when you see one?
Turning and fitting shafts to FINISHED cue butts - imported - is NOT
the same as "Made in Canada". At least not by MY standards, anyway.
I think you'll have be the one to create Clintononian definitions on
this issue...
Thomas Wayne
John Collins
twc schrieb in Nachricht <36a4b321...@nntp.alaska.net>...
>On 19 Jan 1999 23:36:26 GMT, "Velensky, Lenard" <vele...@nbnet.nb.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>Has anybody heard of Orchid cues? I am writing from Canada and see this
>>brand at a local shop. I was told that they are made by Falcon. Can you
>>give me an indication of quality / price etc?
>
>
>
>Thomas Wayne
Falcon Cues are not made in Taiwan. They are manufactured in Mississauga,
Canada (Just outside Toronto.) This is easily verifiable. Ernie Chen the
owner of Falcon Cues is also the owner of KPS which does manufacture
thousands of cues in Taiwan under various brand names. The Falcon brand is
made in Canda though.
Been there seen that. Thomas if you want to bet me the price of the plane
ticket and the hotel we can settle this quickly. We can take a video camera
and document the whole thing. Then we can do some sort of Clintonian
rationalization on what constitutes cuemaking if you want to.
Take care,
John
John Collins
Mountain Mike schrieb in Nachricht <785f0l$t4d$1...@camel15.mindspring.com>...
Well this brings up the question, what does "made in xyz" really mean
anyway? If a company puts out a product that consumers feel confident in
the quality to price value then what is the difference "where" it is made or
"finally assembled and finished"? Are we supposed to be wary of anything
labeled "made in Canada" now? Are we supposed to accept anything "made in
USA" blindly? When a cue is made of Canadian Maple shouldn´t that be
labeled "Made in Canada" because the wood came from there. Where do you
draw the line? The world is getting smaller people, too small to hide
behind flags and claim to be better than or better able just because of
nationality.
Almost all manufacturing companies source their parts worldwide, from raw
materials to finished components. So "made in xyz" is for the most part
inapt anyway, in my opinion the proper labeling would be something like
this, "assembled and finished in xyz from materials and components obtained
in xyz, zyx,dgf... by citizens/immigrants of xyz,zxy,dfg... and or robotic
machinery/computer aided design built in xyz, from parts obtained in
xyz.zyx,dfg..."
Actually I like my method better, when I go looking for something I tend to
ask the seller if he will guarantee the merchandise he sells in writing.
Then I examine what I want to buy and compare it to similar items elsewhere.
If I then buy it and it breaks or doesn´t perform like I expect then I take
it back. All reputable dealers will offer and honor guarantees as will the
factories that deliver to them. I could care less what the labeling says.
If I do my homework then I can be reasonably sure that I can make a wise
purchase. An informed consumer is an armed one, and that maxim spans all
borders, cultures and time.
Just remember, next time you opt for "made in XYZ" because you believe it to
be better since it has the label that it may be indeed made in XYZ by
illegal immigrants being exploited by working for less than half the minimum
wage, using inferior materials sold as seconds by distributors, and
assembled in such a poor fashion that they would never pass any industrial
standard for good quality construction. The saying goes "you get what you
pay for", sometimes you do and sometimes you don´t, but you will definitely
pay more and get less for ignorant blind trust in labels. If a company has
earned your trust with products which demonstrate consistent quality/price
ratios and they stand behind what they sell then stick with that company
regardless of where the products "came" from. The people who "made" those
things buy stuff "made" in your country too.
That´s my opinion.
John Collins
Mountain Mike
John Collins wrote in message <785qii$m76$1...@news08.btx.dtag.de>...
this brings up the question, what does "made in xyz" really mean
John, I don't understand your answer. First you say they ARE made in Canada.
Then you say even if they're not, you should buy them based on <variety of
reasons>. Well, which is it? Made in Canada or not? If you say yes, and the
reader concludes you're wrong, then isn't your credibility shot as to the
"other" reasons?
Just a poor little white boy wondering, is all. MM^^
DLADAMS49
tw
do you mean Clintontonian ??
i think it sounds better .. or do i have a tin ear?
love this stuff and think you have coined a new term for rsb..
david in middle ga
david l adams
DLADAMS49
from the memory archives.. folklore from bullshit sessions ad infinitum ..
ernie chan got into a limited partnership with danny janes
to learn how to make high end cues.. unfortunately after
one of the partners learned certain techniques from the other
it turned sour.. there were money problems and the fallout
from a split.. needless to say..both partners were not happy..
in my opinion one of them came out far far ahead in this transaction..
i have no personal knowledge of these circumstances, and no animosity
toward either gentleman. i could be full of stuff from dirty diapers...
this did result in a much higher standard for the relatively poor imports..
but the general quality ( i've been told ) still does not measure up
to the high standards of the America's Best Independent Cuemakers..
this is my informed opinion and not based on anything but speculation and
rumor. Please no lawyers.. no offense meant.
just another story from the memory archives...
John Collins
Mountain Mike schrieb in Nachricht <786qpi$uhp$1...@camel0.mindspring.com>...
MM in order for this to make sense you should say that you are referring to
two posts. To answer your questions, in response to Thomas´s assertion that
the cues are not made in Canada I said they are.
In response to your explanation of Thomas´s reasoning, which he 1. does very
well by himself and 2. could probably care less about whatever he pays for
internet service, I posed several questions and opinions as to the real
meaning or actuality of "made in xyz." I never stated that the cues are not
made in Canada. I only posed some of my opinion and knowledge as a topic
for debate.
Yes the cues are made in Canada. Yours or any other reader´s belief
otherwise does not change that fact. If you want to debate what constitutes
or warrants a "Made in" labeling then provide your definition and if I can I
will provide a rebuttal. I provided my opinion of "made in" I take no
pride in Made in USA, Made in Germany, Made in Taiwan or even Made on Earth.
However I do take pride in Made by John. Made by John means to me that
regardless of where or which hands did the construction then whichever
products I produce will be created using the best materials I could find and
the best workmanship I am capable of. If this results in products which are
recognized for their high quality and value then I suppose that I have
created something worthwhile regardless of manufacturing location.
John
Fred Agnir
wrote:
<snip>
>
> Yes the cues are made in Canada. Yours or any other reader´s belief
> otherwise does not change that fact. If you want to debate what constitutes
> or warrants a "Made in" labeling then provide your definition and if I can I
> will provide a rebuttal. I provided my opinion of "made in" I take no
> pride in Made in USA, Made in Germany, Made in Taiwan or even Made on Earth.
> However I do take pride in Made by John. Made by John means to me that
> regardless of where or which hands did the construction then whichever
> products I produce will be created using the best materials I could find and
> the best workmanship I am capable of. If this results in products which are
> recognized for their high quality and value then I suppose that I have
> created something worthwhile regardless of manufacturing location.
>
> John
That being said, I have one question. Are the butts of Falcon cues
made/manufactured/fabricated in Taiwan? That's it. That's the my
question. Nothing else. Yes or no.
Can't wait for reply,
Fred Agnir
Templeton, MA
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
John Collins
twc schrieb in Nachricht <36a62c69...@nntp.alaska.net>...
>On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:23:12 +0100, inst...@t-online.de (John
>Collins) wrote:
>
>>Falcon Cues are not made in Taiwan. They are manufactured in Mississauga,
>>Canada (Just outside Toronto.) This is easily verifiable. Ernie Chen the
>>owner of Falcon Cues is also the owner of KPS which does manufacture
>>thousands of cues in Taiwan under various brand names. The Falcon brand
is
>>made in Canda though.
>>
>>Been there seen that. Thomas if you want to bet me the price of the plane
>>ticket and the hotel we can settle this quickly. We can take a video
camera
>>and document the whole thing. Then we can do some sort of Clintonian
>>rationalization on what constitutes cuemaking if you want to.
>
>Johnny my boy, how long you been off the farm, son? Don't you know a
>strawman when you see one?
>
Quite a while actually, but I can still recognize a farm.
>Turning and fitting shafts to FINISHED cue butts - imported - is NOT
>the same as "Made in Canada". At least not by MY standards, anyway.
>I think you'll have be the one to create Clintononian definitions on
>this issue...
>
How about taking raw stock, wood, inlay material, joint collars and pins,
several lathes devoted to specific tasks, a cnc lathe capable of working
several cues simultaneously, a computer controlled spray booth and about
twenty employees all working at different tasks? Ernie knew about a week
before my visit that I was coming. Do you think he just threw all that
together to fool me? Show your proof Thomas, have you been there or is it
just hearsay? Maybe some of the blanks or point work comes in from Taiwan,
I don´t know and I did not ask, but so what? Manufacturers routinely use
parts assembled somewhere else. My assertion is that the Falcon factory is
capable of and does all the steps neccessary to turn raw materials into
finished cues. I am not saying that their product is good, bad or fair or
that the price is correct or not, that is for the consumer to decide. Also
I am
not commenting on Falcon´s business ethics or acumen. Again to only answer
the statement that Falcon Cues are not made in Canada, I say they are well
within what would be considered a fully equipped cuemaking plant and that
they do completely manufacture cues there.
Maybe you and some of the other cuemakers in here would be willing to define
what exactly "Made in" or "Made by" should be according to your definitions
as
relates to cues.
Perhaps there should be some kind of a fair, unbiased association (The ACA?,
silly
question I know.) who could, ala Consumer Reports, compare and rate billiard
products to separate the fact from the fiction and provide accurate value to
quality reports.
Your turn,
John
>
>Thomas Wayne
John Collins
Fred Agnir schrieb in Nachricht ...
No. To my knowledge and direct observation no.
John
John Walkup
Getting a little gun shy, David?
--
John Walkup
The Cue Gallery (http://www.cuegallery.com)
Authorized Dealer:
Verl Horn Custom Cues Russ Espiritu Custom Cues
Jjpechauer
I am with Thomas Wayne on this one. Why would a Chinaman make cues in Canada?
I am sure some are actually made their. But do you really think all the parts
are made there. Get real!! It's nice to be able to say MADE IN CANADA rather
than in a shop in China where workers have no civil rights and are forced to
work for peanuts. Why do you think all that SHIT coming in from China is so
cheap. Look at some of the stuff being sold by CUE & CASE. The keep
advertising cues that are copies of my designs. If you read this Thomas do you
have any suggestions as to how I can stop that creep from doing this.
Best regards,
Jerry Pechauer
Jjpechauer
It's me again. At one of the Trade Shows about 2-3 years ago all the Falcon
cue boxs were shipped from China. Maybe they first shipped them from Canada to
China to have them inspected????????
Best regards,
Still your friend, I hope,
Jerry Pechauer
Jjpechauer
When thinking about China and products coming from there I can't help but think
about FREEDOM and FAIRNESS. I don't mind competing with products from Germany,
France or Canada. I don't see copies of other peoples products coming from
those countrys but I do see them coming out of China. They cannot compete with
the quality of American products and If they started paying their people fair
wages they could not compete with the price of American Products.
I'm done!
Jerry Pechauer
Hoppsconi
You say......
"I take no
pride in Made in USA, Made in Germany, Made in Taiwan or even Made on Earth.
However I do take pride in Made by John. Made by John means to me that
regardless of where or which hands did the construction then whichever etc etc"
From what you are saying here then would it be ok to say?
Made by Ernie Chen a Taiwan cue maker useing the normal practice and style of
KPS, Orchid, Mohawk and the many other names he uses to make cues in Taiwan.
These cues are all guaranteed to be made on Earth in the Taiwan style.
Would this be a reasonable statement?
Dan
Hoppsconi
NOT A CHANCE!
Dan
Joss Cues
twc
Collins) wrote:
>[...] I take no
>pride in Made in USA, Made in Germany, Made in Taiwan or even Made on Earth.
>created something worthwhile regardless of manufacturing location.
Be that as it may, a great many Americans feel a loyalty to their
fellow American workers, and would therefore prefer to buy product
that support the economy of their own country. You're not against the
idea of an informed public, are you John? I mean, you don't think
that 'country of origin' labels are "wrong", do you?
As for Falcon, it's not my job to detail their manufacturing
procedures. But I will say this in all certainty: in order to be
able to legally mark a product "Made in the US", a minimum amount of
the actual manufacturing process MUST be done in this country. That
limit varies, depending on the clasification of the product being
made, and can be as low as 60%. Canada's laws are much, much looser.
AND, as I have said, Falcon could never qualify under US type
guidelines.
Thomas Wayne
twc
Collins) wrote:
>>That being said, I have one question. Are the butts of Falcon cues
>>made/manufactured/fabricated in Taiwan? That's it. That's the my
>>question. Nothing else. Yes or no.
>>
>>Can't wait for reply,
>>
>>Fred Agnir
>>Templeton, MA
>No. To my knowledge and direct observation no.
To MY knowledge and personal observation, YES.
Thomas Wayne
twc
>I'm not sure about the current situation, but originally I think
>Orchid was a spinoff of Joss, or maybe it was started by a cuemaker
>from Joss, and I'm thinking it was started maybe 10 years ago or so.
>But my memory is hazy on this and I might be all wrong.
Your memory is hazy on this and you are all wrong.
Thomas Wayne
Jim Waugh
> >
> >>Has anybody heard of Orchid cues? I am writing from Canada and see this
> >>brand at a local shop. I was told that they are made by Falcon. Can you
> >>give me an indication of quality / price etc?
> >
twc wrote:
> >Orchid cues are made in Taiwan, as are Falcon cues.
> >
John Collins wrote:
> Falcon Cues are not made in Taiwan. They are manufactured in Mississauga,
> Canada (Just outside Toronto.) This is easily verifiable. Ernie Chen the
> owner of Falcon Cues is also the owner of KPS which does manufacture
> thousands of cues in Taiwan under various brand names. The Falcon brand is
> made in Canda though.
>
> Been there seen that. Thomas if you want to bet me the price of the plane
> ticket and the hotel we can settle this quickly. We can take a video camera
> and document the whole thing. Then we can do some sort of Clintonian
> rationalization on what constitutes cuemaking if you want to.
>
I worked a booth at the Kansas City BCA Show. Falcon Cues were just across
the aisle and were being introduced in Kansas City. They were quite worried
because they had shipped all their cues and they had not yet arrived. It was
quite a box opening party when all the cases of cues showed up. Every box
there (I am a witness) had just arrived from TAIWAN. They may very well
make some special orders or repairs or custom jobs in Canada. From what
I have personally seen, they come from Taiwan.
Jim Waugh (Spokane, WA)
AKA CueMaster
Mountain Mike
gide...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <788pb2>
>"Chinaman"? I would hate to become the self-appointed PC police - >
Then don't. MM^^
Smorgass Bored
occurred when & where this newsgroup went wrong. It was Aug. (8th I
'think') of 1997 and Mark Kulaga made a post entitled " Zachary Disease
" and all hell broke loose.... If we would all just go back to THAT date
in time and START OVER I think everything will come out just fine by
Y2K....
Maybe we can prevent the BOOM,BOOM, BOOM,BOOM,BOOM of today's
clueless newbies if we could just have a 'Do-Over'.. IMO
Yeehaaaaaa ! rack-em,
Doug W.
~>*)))>< Big fish eat Little fish ><(((*<~
gide...@my-dejanews.com
jjpec...@aol.com (Jjpechauer) wrote:
>Why would a Chinaman make cues in Canada?
"Chinaman"? I would hate to become the self-appointed PC police - especially
as someone just recently coming out of lurking an into participating in this
ng - but surely someone of Jerry Pechauer's reputation doesn't have to use
expressions that are potenially so offensive.
Gideon <---- knows several Chinese men in Canada
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jjpechauer
I put my foot in my mouth and it's hard now to get it out. My choice of words
was bad. I did not mean to offend anyone. What I should have said was: Why
would anyone with a factory in China make all parts in Canada.
Please accept my apology if I offended anyone.
Jerry Pechauer
Chad Thomas
we have a narrow range of opinions. I always feel more comfortable that
way.
CT
Tom Bellhouse
>
> Speaking of Chinamen.......<insert flasback music here> It has just
> occurred when & where this newsgroup went wrong. It was Aug. (8th I
> 'think') of 1997 and Mark Kulaga made a post entitled " Zachary Disease
> " and all hell broke loose.... If we would all just go back to THAT date
> in time and START OVER I think everything will come out just fine by
> Y2K....
> Maybe we can prevent the BOOM,BOOM, BOOM,BOOM,BOOM of today's
> clueless newbies if we could just have a 'Do-Over'.. IMO
> Yeehaaaaaa ! rack-em,
>
> Doug W.
Careful Doug, be very careful what you wish for. You'd get Mike
Hu back too.
Tom
John Collins
Jjpechauer schrieb in Nachricht
<19990121132535...@ng07.aol.com>...
Hi Jerry,
I don´t want to turn into the defender of Falcon here. All I said was that
I visited their factory and that to my observation cues were being
completely manufactured there, from raw blanks to finished product. As for
the boxes I can say this, the cases are from Taiwan and the shipping label
is "Falcon". I am certainly not for misrepresentation which is the issue
here. However according to Thomas´ definition of what "Made in Canada" is
not, I still say that the cues are made in Canada.
Jerry you know I respect you, your products and I highly value your advice.
The shipping logo on the boxes is circumstantial evidence at best. You
didn´t actually open the boxes to see if there were cues inside did you?
Maybe you and Thomas are right and I am wrong but I have physical evidence
of cuemaking in a cuemaking facility whereas you have labeled boxes and I
don´t know what Thomas has? Granted the logical conclusion would be that if
the box says Made in Taiwan/China then it is fair to assume that what is
inside came from Taiwan/China. How would you know though whether the people
in the Canada facility didn´t just use the boxes from Taiwan to pack the
merchandise for the show in? Ernie does after all own KPS, which makes
thousands of cues as well? Did you see the shipping documents? Can you say
with absolute surety that the cartons you saw were shipped from Taiwan/China
to the Show? All I want to say is that it is unfair to use the newsgroup to
present hypothesis and rumour as facts.
"Falcon Cues are made in Taiwan" would be a statement of fact. Prove it.
" I think Falcon Cues are made wholly or in part in Taiwan based on this..."
would be a statement of opinion open to debate.
This is an open forum and I could go off on any number of tangents related
to copying, design theft, bogus claims, false "Made in" claims, quality
issues, ect... And from time to time I will, but not to blithely espouse
unproven rumor about a competitior no matter how much I despise them.
Believe me Jerry, if I get confirmation that you are right then I will be
back in here apologizing and by the same token if I were to find out that
anything related to billiards was being made in the USA by illegal
immigrants in a sweatshop format or partly made in Mexico and assembled in
the US then I would be in here with the pictures and proof as well. But
only because there is such a thing about "Made in xyz". In today´s world
"Made by" counts for far more than "Made in". And "Made in" is not and
never will be a long term substitute for "Made by". You don´t make great
cues simply because you are an American or your factory is on American soil,
you make great cues because that is your nature and your principle. I know
my position is probably unpopular but in my travels I have seen that
throughout the world all people who do any kind of production work are just
trying to make a living as best they can the same as anyone else. And any
factory or individual is capable of doing great work or lousy work no matter
in which country that work is done. So let´s debate what "Made by" means
instead of "Made in". Why don´t you provide some solid criteria with which
a consumer could go out and make qualified comparisons? Then the "quality"
of said cues would or should be glaringly apparent. Let´s give the
consumers real information to use for educated decisions based on fact and
not hypothesis, or to use the current term "hype".
That´s my take,
John
John Collins
Jjpechauer schrieb in Nachricht
<19990121132103...@ng07.aol.com>...
>John,
>I am with Thomas Wayne on this one. Why would a Chinaman make cues in
Canada?
>I am sure some are actually made their. But do you really think all the
parts
>are made there. Get real!! It's nice to be able to say MADE IN CANADA
rather
>than in a shop in China where workers have no civil rights and are forced
to
>work for peanuts. Why do you think all that SHIT coming in from China is
so
>cheap. Look at some of the stuff being sold by CUE & CASE. The keep
>advertising cues that are copies of my designs. If you read this Thomas do
you
>have any suggestions as to how I can stop that creep from doing this.
>Best regards,
>Jerry Pechauer
Easy access to the wood? All I said is that I was there and there are
people working on lathes making cues. I said that maybe some of the parts
were imported. Again this is often standard practice in the manufacturing
process. I have invited your views on what makes a good cue regardless of
where or by whom. Please provide your perspective on that.
As for Cue & Case, have you talked with anyone there? Jim Lucas and Mike
Baggett would almost certainly be willing to accomodate you. Do you know
who is mainly responsible for the copied designs? The trade agents in
Taiwan! Neither Jim Lucas, Mike Bagget nor Bill and Kathy McFarland were
aware that the designs being offered were almost exact copies of yours and
other exotic cues. Now you might say that is hard to believe but if you
were to spend a couple days in either operation then you would believe me.
They don´t even know the names of half the cuemakers in the ACA. The PERSON
directly responsible for your designs being copied is a European distributor
who THOUGHT that the cues would never be sold in the USA.
That is all for now.
Take care,
John
John Collins
twc schrieb in Nachricht <36a74056...@nntp.alaska.net>...
So you have been to the factory, (or warehouse) and actually seen that
nothing other than fitting shafts to finished butts is being done there.
And you have seen that the finished butts are being imported to Canada from
Taiwan? Is this correct Thomas?
John
John Collins
Jim Waugh schrieb in Nachricht <36A7B6C6...@cuemaster.com>...
Hi Jim,
The BCA Show in Kansas City was in 1993, five years ago. Does anybody
remember Tyler Cues? Dan, maybe you could shed some light on those cues.
Nick Varner and Mike Sigel each had signature lines and were pictured in the
broschure. When Tyler became Falcon, for whatever reason, the first fifteen
cues were identical to the Tyler cues. Were these cues made in Taiwan and
endorsed by Mike and Nick? Maybe the Falcon Cues at the BCA show five years
ago were made in Taiwan I don´t know. However as of my visit to the factory
two years ago the cues were being fully manufactured on site.
John
John Collins
twc schrieb in Nachricht <36a73dfe...@nntp.alaska.net>...
>On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:34:42 +0100, inst...@t-online.de (John
>Collins) wrote:
>>[...] I take no
>>pride in Made in USA, Made in Germany, Made in Taiwan or even Made on
Earth.
>>[...] I suppose that I have
>>created something worthwhile regardless of manufacturing location.
>
>Be that as it may, a great many Americans feel a loyalty to their
>fellow American workers, and would therefore prefer to buy product
>that support the economy of their own country. You're not against the
>idea of an informed public, are you John? I mean, you don't think
>that 'country of origin' labels are "wrong", do you?
>
No I don´t but I think that simply "Made in America" or "Made in Germany" is
not adequate in today´s manufacturing enviroment of global sourcing and free
trade. I think perhaps just "Origin" labels should be attached with some
sort of a quality rating and or code which could be matched to a detailed
description of the exact origin of a product. Maybe something like Quality
Rating 3, 50% US Materials, 25% Canadian, 25% Mexican, 30% Pre-Assembly in
Mexico, 70% Assembly in USA.
Okay I am patriotic, 50% of the material came from my country and 70% of the
work was done here, I guess I will buy it. And it´s quality rated a 3 with
one being the best so I think it should last a while.
>As for Falcon, it's not my job to detail their manufacturing
>procedures.
It is if you say that they do it one way and they don´t.
But I will say this in all certainty: in order to be
>able to legally mark a product "Made in the US", a minimum amount of
>the actual manufacturing process MUST be done in this country. That
>limit varies, depending on the clasification of the product being
>made, and can be as low as 60%. Canada's laws are much, much looser.
>AND, as I have said, Falcon could never qualify under US type
>guidelines.
>
What is your definition of the manufacturing process as applies to a
factory? Specifically what is the difference in Canada´s law compared to US
law? I think that if the Falcon factory were transplanted today as it stands
onto US soil that they would certainly qualify as a cue factory. Why would
they bother with all the high tech machinery on site unless they were doing
the manufacturing? Invest about a million just to be an impressive strawman?
Seems a bit much for the billiard industry.
John
John Collins
Hoppsconi schrieb in Nachricht
<19990121170144...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
>John,
>You say......
>
>"I take no
>pride in Made in USA, Made in Germany, Made in Taiwan or even Made on
Earth.
>regardless of where or which hands did the construction then whichever etc
etc"
>
>From what you are saying here then would it be ok to say?
>
>Made by Ernie Chen a Taiwan cue maker useing the normal practice and style
of
>KPS, Orchid, Mohawk and the many other names he uses to make cues in
Taiwan.
>
>These cues are all guaranteed to be made on Earth in the Taiwan style.
>
>Would this be a reasonable statement?
>
>Dan
Yes. Now define the Taiwan style. How does it compare to the American or
Canadian style as relates to cue quality?
John
John Collins
Jjpechauer schrieb in Nachricht
<19990121134301...@ng07.aol.com>...
I agree with you Jerry about freedom and fairness and that is one reason
that I am defending Falcon even though I have a copy of our case that Ernie
Chen commissioned to have made. I do not think that country of origin
labels are adequate and I do not think that companies or individuals should
be lambasted and grouped together as one entity and one evil. That is why I
am for more accurate information and not hearsay. Let the consumer decide
whether they are for Freedom and Fairness. Just a point of information,
Taiwan is a democratic country with a freely elected government. Anyone
can choose their profession and the citizens are not in any way oppressed.
The economy there is such that the wages and the cost of doing business is
lower than in the US. Mexico and almost all the South American countries
are the same way. If you want to be mad then be mad at the ACA for not
using their resources to protect the designs of their members. There was no
public outcry in the 80´s and early 90´s when Meucci, McDermott and Viking
were the only targets of blatant copying and design theft. Of course then
those companies were the only ones with nice easy to scan color brochures.
Be mad at corporate America which fills stores with Asian knockoffs of
ingenuity worldwide. Be mad that 90% of the pool playing public wouldn´t
know the difference between an Orchid and a Pechauer. Why not? Because we
only care that our artwork is stolen and not that our craftmanship goes with
it. Why are some companies successful despite numerous copies of their
product? Because their customer base knows the differences and stays
faithful as long as the quality remains high. Companies spend fortunes
promoting the quality aspects of their products. Why? Because when they both
look alike you want your name to stand out. If you think Falcon is not fair
if they finish parts of the cues in Taiwan and the rest in Canada to get the
label, and you think that their quality is bad then why not tell everybody
what constitues a good cue and let the consumer decide whether Falcon
measures up or not. Since we are for freedom and fairness then I will
fairly and freely say that I do not like Ernie Chen or his business
practices, I am sure that he has screwed many people in the industry.
However to my observation the cues are completely made in Canada so it would
be unfair to say otherwise without concrete proof.
That would be like me saying Joe Porper cases are made in .... by ..... or
something to that effect! While I might want to report on some things I
have been told I can´t because I don´t know it for fact and cannot prove it.
Joe has copied our designs and he is one of the biggest opponents of copying
and copiers, how do you think I feel? So Jerry I guess what I am trying to
say is that we all can in the end only stand and be judged by our own
actions.
>They cannot compete with
>the quality of American products and If they started paying their people
fair
>wages they could not compete with the price of American Products.
Actually part of the problem is that the Taiwanese cue factories now can
compete with the quality of US manufacturers. This makes the lower prices
infinitely more interesting than the US counterparts for the retailers
across the country. Take it as you want to but a lot of knowledgeable
people in the industry more or less "taught" these factories who otherwise
often do not have anyone with a pool background how to build better cues.
You can say what you want to but these are people trying to make a living
just like you and me. The whole business culture is built on a cutthroat
mentality. Western businesses use the Asian factories and discard them
frivolously. Don´t be surprised when these same factories venture into the
marketplace themselves. Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day, teach
him to fish and he will never starve. In the spirit of the unique Leonard
Bludworth, teach him to make a pole and see if he don´t beat you with it!
Think about it Jerry,
John
MULLY
Jjpechauer wrote in message <19990122125052...@ng28.aol.com>...
Don't sweat it Jerry. Some of us don't take offense to some off color humor.
MULLY
PC can bite me
twc
Collins) schreib und schreib und schreib in Nachricht:
>The BCA Show in Kansas City was in 1993, five years ago. Does anybody
>remember Tyler Cues? Dan, maybe you could shed some light on those cues.
>Nick Varner and Mike Sigel each had signature lines and were pictured in the
>broschure. When Tyler became Falcon, for whatever reason, the first fifteen
>cues were identical to the Tyler cues. Were these cues made in Taiwan and
>endorsed by Mike and Nick?[...]
As Dan may not have time or inclination to answer this, I might point
out that HIS involvement was (to my understanding) primarily as a
consultant.
Also, as I remember it, the only "Tyler" cues actually produced were
prototypes that were made in Taiwan; their quality was SO abysmal, I
think this may have been part of what made Dan decide to drop out of
the project. That and not being paid.
As for your suggestion that importing major parts & pieces [from
Taiwan] is "standard business practice", it's NOT. At least, not in
the American cuemaking industry.
Reasonably speaking, John, why would Falcon actually build the cue
butts in Canada, when they could use their existing foreign plants and
labor force for a TINY fraction of the cost? How does THAT make any
business sense? Quality shaft wood and the more highly skilled labor
required to complete the final fitting processes are both better
supplied in Canada, so that's what is being done. But the BULK of the
cue (not just "parts") is being manufactured in Asia
John, you are entitled to your opinion, but I'm telling you you've
been had. What Falcon is currently doing is EXACTLY the business plan
that Ernie Chen proposed to me in Toronto, shortly after the Tyler
project was abandoned. Ernie argued that is was "good business" and
everybody would make "big money". I didn't want to be involved
because it wasn't legitimate; he insisted "nobody would know".
You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people
all of the time, but...
Thomas Wayne
twc
Collins) wrote:
>[...]Maybe something like Quality
>Rating 3, 50% US Materials, 25% Canadian, 25% Mexican, 30% Pre-Assembly in
>Mexico, 70% Assembly in USA.
Actually, John, with the exception of assessing 'quality', this is
EXACTLY what US customs requires of US companies producing a 'hybrid'
product. If a major component of any product is produce by a foreign
country, it must be noted on the finished US product. Canada has no
such requirement.
>What is your definition of the manufacturing process as applies to a
>factory? Specifically what is the difference in Canada´s law compared to US
>law? I think that if the Falcon factory were transplanted today as it stands
>onto US soil that they would certainly qualify as a cue factory. Why would
>they bother with all the high tech machinery on site unless they were doing
>the manufacturing? [...]
Virtually all the "high tech" machinery you talk about has multiple
capabilities, and can be dedicated exclusively to shaftwork without
much 'changeover' required.
As for your assertion that Falcon's "factory" could be transpalnted
onto US soil, then why HASN'T it been? Ernie Chen has been wanting to
have the appearance of an American made product for SO long. And
moving the machinery and equipment wouldn't cost THAT much. Could it
be that the US Customs laws make it impossible? Also, it's a hell of
a lot harder (in the US) to bring in foreigh labor (on temporaty work
visas) and house, feed and pay them according to Taiwan standards. Us
labor laws frown on that sort of thing.
But I'm curious, John. Why such a furious defense of Falcon Cues? I
mean, why should YOU care if people know that they're really... Oh
no!... Oh my God! John, you're not planning to bring out a line of
'Instroke' CUES, are you? Say it isn't so. Please don't tell us
you're going to have Ernie Chen make you a bunch of cheapo Taiwan
private label 'Instroke' cues. That would be selling out...
Thomas Wayne
twc
Collins) wrote:
>So you have been to the factory, (or warehouse)
Yes.
>and actually seen that
>nothing other than fitting shafts to finished butts is being done there.
I've seen a HELL of a lot of shipping boxes (cue size) with Taiwan
shipping labels IN that warehouse.
>And you have seen that the finished butts are being imported to Canada from
>Taiwan? Is this correct Thomas?
Even better. That is EXACTLY the business plan Ernie Chen explained
and courted me with. In excruciating detail, I might add. I think he
was rather shocked when I balked at the idea.
Thomas Wayne
Hoppsconi
>What Falcon is currently doing is EXACTLY the business plan
>that Ernie Chen proposed to me in Toronto, shortly after the Tyler
>project was abandoned. Ernie argued that is was "good business" and
>everybody would make "big money". I didn't want to be involved
>because it wasn't legitimate; he insisted "nobody would know".
I understand this plan had been proposed to a few cue makers in the U.S.
and all have turned him down.
Dan
Joss
Fred Agnir
>
> You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people
> all of the time, but...
>
Can you fool all of the people who can't tell time?
Regards,
Fred Agnir
Templeton, MA
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
John Collins
twc schrieb in Nachricht <36ac381c...@nntp.alaska.net>...
>On Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:38:28 +0100, inst...@t-online.de (John
>Collins) schreib und schreib und schreib in Nachricht:
>
>
>>The BCA Show in Kansas City was in 1993, five years ago. Does anybody
>>remember Tyler Cues? Dan, maybe you could shed some light on those cues.
>>Nick Varner and Mike Sigel each had signature lines and were pictured in
the
>>broschure. When Tyler became Falcon, for whatever reason, the first
fifteen
>>cues were identical to the Tyler cues. Were these cues made in Taiwan and
>>endorsed by Mike and Nick?[...]
>
>As Dan may not have time or inclination to answer this, I might point
>out that HIS involvement was (to my understanding) primarily as a
>consultant.
>
>Also, as I remember it, the only "Tyler" cues actually produced were
>prototypes that were made in Taiwan; their quality was SO abysmal, I
>think this may have been part of what made Dan decide to drop out of
>the project. That and not being paid.
>
Thank you for the clarification. At least now the boxes and production have
been explained.
>As for your suggestion that importing major parts & pieces [from
>Taiwan] is "standard business practice", it's NOT. At least, not in
>the American cuemaking industry.
>
I did not say or mean to imply that it is standard practice in the cuemaking
industry but in manufacturing
in general. Outsourcing parts and labor is in fact very common among
manufacturing branches.
The practice is not new or different. I agree that if done primarily for
the reason of being
able to market and sell a cue in a higher price bracket than it deserves
then this is unethical.
>Reasonably speaking, John, why would Falcon actually build the cue
>butts in Canada, when they could use their existing foreign plants and
>labor force for a TINY fraction of the cost? How does THAT make any
>business sense? Quality shaft wood and the more highly skilled labor
>required to complete the final fitting processes are both better
>supplied in Canada, so that's what is being done. But the BULK of the
>cue (not just "parts") is being manufactured in Asia
>
>John, you are entitled to your opinion, but I'm telling you you've
>been had. What Falcon is currently doing is EXACTLY the business plan
>that Ernie Chen proposed to me in Toronto, shortly after the Tyler
>project was abandoned. Ernie argued that is was "good business" and
>everybody would make "big money". I didn't want to be involved
>because it wasn't legitimate; he insisted "nobody would know".
Thanks Thomas that is all I wanted was the proof or at least something other
than I know it
to be so so it is. My knowledge of cuemaking is limited only to that what I
observe. So if you
show me your shop and say you build cues there then I would believe you and
defend you
were someone to say otherwise. Unless they were able to prove otherwise to
me.
>
>You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people
>all of the time, but...
>
>Thomas Wayne
Okay Thomas I give up. Your arguments and proof are convincing to me.
Thank you.
John