10-ball rules
JakartaDean
happened the Philippines national open tourney was live on TV. (There
are a few well-known players competing, SVN included, Corey Duel is
already in the losers bracket.)
They are playing 10-ball, but they are playing it call shot. I've never
played 10-ball, but it seems to me it would normally be slop. Am I
wrong? It has already affected one match I watched today (still on
live, on ESPN here) where a young Japanese player, who apparently didn't
understand English, was called for not calling a 10 ball he made on a
carom (it was spotted and he continued shooting).
Dean
Fast Larry
disgrace for pros to do so. All pro events, IMHO< should be call
shot. You should not have to call caroms, it should be 14.1 pot
rules. You only call the shot, it does not matter how it goes in.
At a pro event in Vegas at Binions casino, playing Fabio of Italy, our
match is even 4-4, the pockets are very tight, I miss, the 5 ball goes
2 rails and pots in the back corner, I said, me skooosi, I shoot the 6
ball, miss again, point out and it goes 2 rails and slops in another
corner, he goes, momma mia, I took my ferrule, tapped the cue ball,
and sat down. He went, what goes, I said, I mis cued, ball in hand,
and he ran out. I said, I don't want to win that way, that is BS I
can win that game missing 2 shots badly.
Unfortunately most would never call such a foul on their own self and
most favor the slop which is why its in place. The women have tried
it before, once calling only the 9 ball, and got rid of it when Lee
lost potting 9 and not calling it.
Jack Stein
> I was at the gym yesterday (hey, one of us has to get fit) and as it
> happened the Philippines national open tourney was live on TV. (There
> are a few well-known players competing, SVN included, Corey Duel is
> already in the losers bracket.)
You meant SVB, right? Shane Van Boening... I watched him a lot on
ustream.tv. Very good player, but like everyone, he has his good and
bad days.
> They are playing 10-ball, but they are playing it call shot. I've never
> played 10-ball, but it seems to me it would normally be slop. Am I
> wrong? It has already affected one match I watched today (still on
> live, on ESPN here) where a young Japanese player, who apparently didn't
> understand English, was called for not calling a 10 ball he made on a
> carom (it was spotted and he continued shooting).
I thought 10 ball was 9 ball with 10 balls? I guess like 9 ball, and 8
ball, the rules are very "flexible".
--
Jack
GO PENNS!
http://jbstein.com
Fast Larry
There are no rules, and no rule book, each event, makes them up as
they go along. Every event, there is some new rules change.
Aunty Dan
rules for 10-ball. They appear to be trying to combine the call-shot
elements of 8-Ball, including allowed Safeties to be called, but with the
caveat that if you make the ball your opponent can treat the shot like a
Push Out and hand it back if they want.
The confusing aspect of this is the line "However, if the shooter pockets
THE legal object ball" intead of "However, if the shooter pockets A legal
object ball". Using "The" suggests that if you call safe, hit the object
ball first and make a different object ball then the opponent is stuck with
the leave.
--
Aunty Dan
(Remove the "X" from Hotmail.com to email me directly)
------------------------------------------
"For 'tis the sport to have the engineer
Hoisted with his own petard."
- W. Shakespeare
------------------------------------------
Aunty Dan
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_10ball
--
Aunty Dan
(Remove the "X" from Hotmail.com to email me directly)
------------------------------------------
"For 'tis the sport to have the engineer
Hoisted with his own petard."
- W. Shakespeare
------------------------------------------
"Aunty Dan" <aunt...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Yg5Ul.127881$5N7....@newsfe09.iad...
JakartaDean
> Sorry, meant to include the link to the rules:
>
> http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_10ball
>
I must admit. I'll read the rules, thanks to the link you posted.
Dean
JakartaDean
guy named Demosthenes Pulpul, is demolishing a player from Taiwan, with
just about flawless play. Darren Appleton is winning 4-3 on another
table, but I don't know who he's playing.
On another note, they were using a wooden triangle for racking, but the
players were complaining about bad racks (they looked bad, more dry
breaks than breaks with a ball made). Now they are using some Japanese
invention, which looks like a piece of mylar in a triangle shape, with
dimples made in it in the right position for a tight rack. Seems to be
working better, but I've never seen it before. You an leave it on the
table during play, or pick it up if there are no balls on top of it.
Dean
JakartaDean
> They are playing under the fairly new WPA (World Pool-Billiard Association)
> rules for 10-ball. They appear to be trying to combine the call-shot
> elements of 8-Ball, including allowed Safeties to be called, but with the
> caveat that if you make the ball your opponent can treat the shot like a
> Push Out and hand it back if they want.
>
> The confusing aspect of this is the line "However, if the shooter pockets
> THE legal object ball" intead of "However, if the shooter pockets A legal
> object ball". Using "The" suggests that if you call safe, hit the object
> ball first and make a different object ball then the opponent is stuck with
> the leave.
>
safety, which might be a good thing with only ten balls, at most, on the
table. I don't really see the need for call shot, in general, as it
just creates one more think for drunks to argue about, but I think
there's a perception that call shot is more "serious" or something. I
don't think it makes any difference in practice, and invites arguments
where none are necessary.
BTW, Demosthenes Pulpul just annihilated his opponent, 9-1. Winner
breaks, and I only caught the last 4 racks, but I never saw the other
guy get out of his chair. The TV folks feel a need to give pool players
a nickname, and Demosthenes has been given the handle "plong-plong",
which makes him Plong-plong Pulpul. Not a fate I'd wish on anyone.
Dean
Fast Larry
>
> - Show quoted text -
JD say:
Interesting rule, that. It seems to be pretty much taking away the
safety, which might be a good thing with only ten balls, at most, on
the
table. I don't really see the need for call shot, in general, as it
just creates one more think for drunks to argue about
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((***)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Exactly, this is what I have been saying, you amateurs, league players
who are mostly dumb drunks, do not have the intelligence to handle all
this thinking, so let you play slop and apa drunk rules. Pros like
me, are smarter and we can remember to call shots, and obvious pots
should not have to be called, like in 14.1. Pros should always play
call shot.
Ron Shepard
JakartaDean <deanb...@forteinc.com> wrote:
These are the new 10-ball rules that Bob Jewett wrote last year. I
have not heard of anyone using them in tournaments before. Before
these rules, everyone did play 10-ball the same as 9-ball with the
obvious changes (triangle rack rather than diamond rack, etc.).
These earlier rules were the ones used in 1998-1999 in the last year
of the MBPT (or whatever they were calling themselves at that time)
on the Camel Pro 10-Ball Tour when they were sponsored by RJR/Camel.
These were not the same as the BCA 10-ball rules at that time, which
were more like 1970-style 9-ball rules (no 3-foul rule, no BIH after
fouls, BIH in the kitchen only, illegally pocketed balls were
spotted, etc.).
The unique thing to me about these new rules involves accidentally
pocketed balls. If the called ball is not pocketed, but some other
ball is pocketed on a shot, then the incoming player has the option
to take the shot or pass it back to the shooter (even on a called
safety). I don't know of any other current game that has this kind
of rule. It basically gives a player a way to play something like a
pushout in the middle of the game in certain situations. It will be
interesting to see what kind of tactics are developed that are based
on this.
As far as someone pocketing the 10-ball accidentally, the rules seem
to cover all the possibilities. On a combination or carom shot,
only one ball can be called. If the 10-ball is not called but it is
pocketed, then it is spotted. So in effect, you can win the game
early with a combination or carom, but you must call the 10-ball on
that shot to win. Otherwise, it is spotted and play continues in
the normal way. This all seems unique to this new 10-ball game, it
is unlike regular 9-ball or even ESPN call-shot 9-ball.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
JakartaDean
> The unique thing to me about these new rules involves accidentally
> pocketed balls. If the called ball is not pocketed, but some other
> ball is pocketed on a shot, then the incoming player has the option
> to take the shot or pass it back to the shooter (even on a called
> safety). I don't know of any other current game that has this kind
> of rule. It basically gives a player a way to play something like a
> pushout in the middle of the game in certain situations. It will be
> interesting to see what kind of tactics are developed that are based
> on this.
>
removed the safety from a call shot game, but there may well be
intricacies I haven't contemplated. I'll post if I see anything unusual
in this tournament.
> As far as someone pocketing the 10-ball accidentally, the rules seem
> to cover all the possibilities. On a combination or carom shot,
> only one ball can be called. If the 10-ball is not called but it is
> pocketed, then it is spotted. So in effect, you can win the game
> early with a combination or carom, but you must call the 10-ball on
> that shot to win. Otherwise, it is spotted and play continues in
> the normal way. This all seems unique to this new 10-ball game, it
> is unlike regular 9-ball or even ESPN call-shot 9-ball.
>
That's exactly what happened, a player played a shot to make the 6 ball,
the lowest numbered ball on the table, and carom into the 10. Both went
in, and he thought he'd won, but the referee spotted the 10 and told him
to keep shooting, which is the right call as I read the rules. The
player was from Japan, and didn't seem to speak English, so there was
some confusion as to what was going on, but that's life.
> $.02 -Ron Shepard
Dean
Ron Shepard
JakartaDean <deanb...@forteinc.com> wrote:
> > The unique thing to me about these new rules involves accidentally
> > pocketed balls. If the called ball is not pocketed, but some other
> > ball is pocketed on a shot, then the incoming player has the option
> > to take the shot or pass it back to the shooter (even on a called
> > safety). I don't know of any other current game that has this kind
> > of rule. It basically gives a player a way to play something like a
> > pushout in the middle of the game in certain situations. It will be
> > interesting to see what kind of tactics are developed that are based
> > on this.
> >
> Yes, that's my impression also. At first glance, I think they've simply
> removed the safety from a call shot game, but there may well be
> intricacies I haven't contemplated. I'll post if I see anything unusual
> in this tournament.
In other call-shot games, a called safety is treated the same way as
calling one shot and executing another (i.e. regarding who shoots
next, what options they have, whether balls are spotted, etc.). In
this respect, a called safety in 10-ball is treated correctly and
consistently. To do anything else would have made it inconsistent
with this general principle. You are right in that you cannot
intentionally pocket a ball on a called safety and force the
opponent to shoot from that position. Those two things are in
conflict, and cannot be resolved so that both can occur. The new
WPA 10-ball rules treat called safeties the same "as if" one shot
were called and another shot were executed. That is consistent with
one general principle but not with the other. I think it might have
been interesting to allow the other resolution instead (which would
have introduced the other inconsistency with general principles).
BTW, called safeties can still occur if no ball is pocketed, it is
only when a ball is pocketed that the inconsistency arises and
needed to be resolved in the rules. This in turn is based on this
unique situation in the new 10-ball rules about accidentally
pocketed balls in which the incoming player has the option to pass.
When Bob was writing drafts of these new rules over the past few
years, did this issue ever come up for discussion?
Regarding the incoming player option, can anyone think of a tactical
situation where the shooter would benefit somehow, compared to the
other rule possibilities, by the new 10-ball rule? In all of the
situations I can think of offhand, the incoming player has the
advantage over the shooter. Like in a pushout situation, the best
the shooter can do is leave a 50/50 situation after accidentally
pocketing some ball. Anything else and the incoming player can
stick him with the short odds.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
JakartaDean
> When Bob was writing drafts of these new rules over the past few
> years, did this issue ever come up for discussion?
>
I dunno. I know Bob was very diligent in getting community input as the
draft was being finalized, but I only learned about it at the end, as
most of the community, IIRC, was AZBilliards, not here. I would have
liked to ask him about repositioning accidentally moved balls in a
refereed match, which is no longer specifically mentioned in the 8-ball
rules, so I assume no longer applies. I think I emailed him, but didn't
get a response, but I may be misremembering.
> Regarding the incoming player option, can anyone think of a tactical
> situation where the shooter would benefit somehow, compared to the
> other rule possibilities, by the new 10-ball rule? In all of the
> situations I can think of offhand, the incoming player has the
> advantage over the shooter. Like in a pushout situation, the best
> the shooter can do is leave a 50/50 situation after accidentally
> pocketing some ball. Anything else and the incoming player can
> stick him with the short odds.
I think you're right, 50/50 is the best one can hope for as shooter. In
fact, I was thinking of you yesterday when I was watching TV. There are
two announcers, the usual know-nothing TV type and a Philippino player,
who really added some value. After a pushout, he used your exact words,
saying that the shooter is trying to leave a 50/50 proposition for his
opponent to choose from.
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard
Dean