cure for the chicken wing-LONG
Zach
prolific chicken-winger. I have been playing for years and never was aware,
and I never had anyone else point this out to me. I am desperatley
searching for a cure.
I play a few regional events, doing well and occasionally finishing in the
cash. However, I think this could e the thing that is holding me back. I
am spending about 3-4 hours daily on practicing. I have tried various
stances, grips, etc...to try and get out of tis habit, but they have all
been to no avail. I would try taking a lesson, but the BCA instructor that
I had 1 lesson with didn;t even tell me I was doing this. I cannot find one
professional (either live or on over 75 accustats) that does this. There
are tons who have their arms tilted the other way, but I cannot find one
that has their forearm tilted towards their body.
I am 6'1, about 190, wide across the shoulders if tht has anything to do
with this - perhaps this is something that must happen to keep the cue under
my chin?
Any help would be appreciated.
Zach
Patrick Johnson
> ... perhaps this is something that must happen to keep the cue under
> my chin?
That'd be my guess. It could be you're facing the shot too squarely. Try
"closing" your stance a little (turning to face the stick more) by moving your
front foot forward (or your back foot back), your elbow away from your side, and
stroking more "across" your chest. You'll probably have to turn your head a
little more to sight down the stick.
Another thing to try is to work on your stance without using any balls, not even
a cue ball -- just you and your stick. Be aware of gravity pulling the stick
and your back hand downward. Let it hang as loosely as possible and just swing
back and forth with the force of gravity. Look down at it as you stroke, and
make sure it's travelling in a straight line directly beneath your eye(s) with
little or no effort to keep it straight.
Shift things around until it's most comfortable and effortless to produce this
straight, vertical stroke. Try new things; don't fall into the same old rut.
When you get there (your "natural" stance), notice how the position feels.
Memorize the sensations of being in that position so you can duplicate them when
you're playing.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Ron Shepard
Patrick Johnson <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote:
> Another thing to try is to work on your stance without using any balls, not
> even
> a cue ball -- just you and your stick. Be aware of gravity pulling the stick
> and your back hand downward. Let it hang as loosely as possible and just
> swing
> back and forth with the force of gravity. Look down at it as you stroke, and
> make sure it's travelling in a straight line directly beneath your eye(s)
> with
> little or no effort to keep it straight.
You can do all this in front of a mirror to get some immediate
feedback too.
By "chicken-wing" you mean like a side-arm stroke, right?
Something else that might be contributing to your stance problem is
that your grip hand may be too far forward. You may be twisting up
at your shoulder and forearm trying to bring your elbow up to your
grip hand; try moving your grip hand back toward your elbow instead.
When you are in your stance, think "open" and "relaxed" rather than
"twisted" and "tight."
$.02 -Ron Shepard <--just guessing
Fred Agnir
> I would try taking a lesson, but the BCA instructor that
> I had 1 lesson with didn;t even tell me I was doing this.
A lot of instructors stress comfortability.
> I cannot find one
> professional (either live or on over 75 accustats) that does this.There
> are tons who have their arms tilted the other way, but I cannot find one
> that has their forearm tilted towards their body.
Francisco is the poster boy for the chicken wing (elbow in).
Strickland does the reverse chicken wing (elbow out). Which one do you
have?
>
> I am 6'1, about 190, wide across the shoulders if tht has anything to do
> with this - perhaps this is something that must happen to keep the cue under
> my chin?
I'm much smaller and have the elbow out reverse chicken wing. I think
if you really want to get rid of this, you need to change your stance.
Closing the stance (less square) is the method that seems the most
reasonable (if you are of the reverse style ). That can be as easy as
turning your shoulders towards your stick, or stepping farther back
with your rear foot. It may feel uncomfortable. Squaring the stance
might be the best thing to try if you have the opposite wing. Whether
or not this will pay dividends in the future is a guessing game.
Fred <~~~ stopped trying to undo
Patrick Johnson
And this can be the right answer. Fred usually reminds us that the
standard answer (to try to be more "typical") isn't always the most
helpful one. In this case I think he'd say that if your chickenwing is
working and you don't want to re-create your stance, you might consider
just going with it. There are examples of very successful players with
such stances.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Larry Lurker
"Ron Shepard" <ron-s...@NOSPAM.attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ron-shepard-8EBC...@netnews.attbi.com...
> In article <3D9913F0...@attbi.com>,
> Patrick Johnson <patrick...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>
> You can do all this in front of a mirror to get some immediate
> feedback too.
>
> By "chicken-wing" you mean like a side-arm stroke, right?
>
I think he's referring to the "chicken wing" with the elbow outside the
wrist when making a shot.
A side-arm stroke is kind of the inverse of that with the elbow lined up
inside the wrist.
(Inverted chicken wing? lol) Good advice on using a mirror. Video works
great also.
Larry Lurker
"Fred Agnir" <oha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5447edcf.0210...@posting.google.com...
> "Zach" <z...@visuallink.com> wrote
>
>
> > I would try taking a lesson, but the BCA instructor that
> > I had 1 lesson with didn;t even tell me I was doing this.
>
> A lot of instructors stress comfortability.
>
> > I cannot find one
> > professional (either live or on over 75 accustats) that does this.There
> > are tons who have their arms tilted the other way, but I cannot find
one
> > that has their forearm tilted towards their body.
>
> Francisco is the poster boy for the chicken wing (elbow in).
> Strickland does the reverse chicken wing (elbow out). Which one do you
> have?
>
>
refer to.
Ross
> I recently had the chance to see myself on film recently and realized I am a
> prolific chicken-winger. I have been playing for years and never was aware,
> and I never had anyone else point this out to me. I am desperatley
> searching for a cure.
>
> I play a few regional events, doing well and occasionally finishing in the
> cash. However, I think this could e the thing that is holding me back. I
> am spending about 3-4 hours daily on practicing. I have tried various
> stances, grips, etc...to try and get out of tis habit, but they have all
> been to no avail. I would try taking a lesson, but the BCA instructor that
>
> Zach
Zach, it sounds like you are serious about your game. If this is the
case, I would strongly recommend that you find some high quality
instruction to work on your stance and stroke. For example, Randy
Goettlicher and his crew at Cue Tech Pool School outside of Dallas,
Texas (www.poolschool.com) or Jerry Brieseth in Madison, Wisconsin
both will do a videotape analysis of your stroke. Fran Crimi in NY
does the same. All of these instructors are Master Level BCA
instructors and have a lot of experience "fixing" strokes and have
quite a few satisfied customers. Trying to fix your stance/stroke by
yourself, especially when you have a long-standing problem that you
haven't been able to solve, can be a frustrating process. Of course,
there is some cost in terms of money/time to see one of these
instructors. But since you are spending 3-4 hours daily practicing,
it would be a good investment to try to make sure you are practising
it right. Good luck!
rick
One of the most prolifice free throw shooters in NBA history was Rick
Barry, who shot his free throws UNDERHAND!
Fred Agnir
Mike Page
oha...@hotmail.com (Fred Agnir) wrote:
And sometines jackin up may just be the best thing... And Meuccis hit
better than most rsbers think, and pool's only like one and a half
percent mental, and ...
--
mike page <--trying to get summa this action
fargo
SSCS
deteriorate your game. When he says he has a chicken wing I am assuming as
Larry did that it is the elbow out. Having a stroke like this can be
detrimental to a smooth stroke. A couple of questions he has to ask himself
is...
1) Do you see your tip moving from left to right back to the left again (if
you are right handed) when you stroke? It may be ever so slightly, but even
a little will impart spin on cueball. If you don't see a waver in your
stroke then playing all these years has trained your brain to adjust you
backhand stroke to keep the stick straight when stroking. Which brings us to
the second question
2) Do you notice that you miss harder stroked shots consistently in one
direction (overcutting to the right and undercutting to the left). Even if
your brain has trained your muscles in your arm to straighten out the stroke
by moving your lower arm. Your muscles don't have time to react in
straightening the stroke in a quicker motion. An easy way to test this is to
do the down table drill. Set up the cueball on the head spot and place two
balls along the head rail about 4 balls width apart. Stroke the cueball down
the table to the center spot easy have it bounce back off the foot rail back
to the head rail in between the two balls. Then try it hard. Then try it
easy. Keep alternating and see if you miss the shot having the ball return
on the same side every time you hit it hard. If you do then your brain is
trying to correct the problem in easy strokes but can't in hard ones.
If you end up finding out that you still are able to stoke ok and you can do
the drill without problems I would say that you are comfortable and I
wouldn't change it.
Otherwise there is are 2 easy solutions. First, as suggested before, stroke
in front of a mirror bend down look down the cue and stroke and see where
the elbow is. You will notice that you will have to move your bridge hand a
bit because when you line up a shot you will be about 3/4 of a tip off
target.
The second solution, when practicing and there is no mirror around, get down
on your shot take a couple of practice strokes and freeze. Look back at your
arm and make sure that it is perpendicular to the floor (no chickenwing),
make adjustments if you have to. Then look at where your tip is on the
cueball you will have to move your bridge hand so that your contact is
correct on the cueball. take a couple of practice strokes again and look
back at the arm. (it probably will be straight because the point that you
picked on the cueball will align your arm). It is best to do this when you
are doing the down table drill.
SSCS<---- Just straightened out his stroke around 4 months ago and has
noticed a huge improvement!!!
"Fred Agnir" <oha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5447edcf.0210...@posting.google.com...
matta
> prolific chicken-winger. I have been playing for years and never was aware,
> and I never had anyone else point this out to me. I am desperatley
> searching for a cure.
By "chicken wing", I assume you are referring to elbow out with wrist
in or tucking as we call it. I used to play like this.
A local player (much better than me) would rag me about my stance. His
main issue was that I would have my bridge hand too far away from the
cue ball and my back hand would be on the very butt of the cue. After
finally listening to him, I moved the back hand forward (back onto the
wrap). It killed my game for a few weeks but once I adjusted, the
chicken wing started to go away too.
Are they connected? Would be interesting to hear.
Another thing, closing your stance some might help. I break like this
to keep my arm away from my body. Seems to help. I think Joey A. let
me in on the secret. Btw, by closing your stance, I mean moving your
feet so that if you drew a line through your ankles, they would be
closer to parallel to the cue than perpendicular.
matta
Zach
">
> That'd be my guess. It could be you're facing the shot too squarely. Try
> "closing" your stance a little (turning to face the stick more) by moving
your
> front foot forward (or your back foot back), your elbow away from your
side, and
> stroking more "across" your chest. You'll probably have to turn your head
a
> little more to sight down the stick.
I worked on this a bit this evening. It definately helped my arm stay in a
vertical position, and my shotmaking didn;t suffer too much (especially when
considering it was the first attempt), but it was awfully difficult to get
low over the cue. A chin height of 6" off of the cue was easily obtainable,
but lower was uncomfortable at best. I will continue to fool around with
the closing of the stance though. I can feel that a straight arm is better
for overall consistency, but creating it with comfort could prove a bit
tough.
Thanks!
Zach
Zach
>
> By "chicken-wing" you mean like a side-arm stroke, right?
>
I play with my elbow outside of my body, and my forearm is tilted towards my
body. Is this considered chicken wing, reverse chicken wing, fried chicken
wing? so confused ;-)
> Something else that might be contributing to your stance problem is
> that your grip hand may be too far forward. You may be twisting up
> at your shoulder and forearm trying to bring your elbow up to your
> grip hand; try moving your grip hand back toward your elbow instead.
> When you are in your stance, think "open" and "relaxed" rather than
> "twisted" and "tight."
Currently I hold the cue on its extreme butt end. My hand is extremely
relaxed, using just my thumb and index and middle fingers. The pinkie is
off the cue, and the ring is just along for the ride.
Zach
Zach
">
> Francisco is the poster boy for the chicken wing (elbow in).
> Strickland does the reverse chicken wing (elbow out). Which one do you
> have?
>
I am elbow out...similair to Strickland, but a bit more extreme.
>
> Fred <~~~ stopped trying to undo
For quite some time I have been opposed to undoing my game. I have been
fairly succesful, and usually quite confident. However, I really think that
this might be part of what is holding my game back a bit. Occasionally I
will miss a shot for no reason ( I know we all do) or stop a straight in
shot and notice that the cue ball slides a bit one way or the other.
Perhaps I am taking a bit of a shot in the dark by trying to change this,
but it seems to be a glaring fault in my game.
Thanks for your ideas,
Zach <~~~~~If my arm went the other way, I would say.."At least Bustamente
does that" :-)
Zach
> just going with it. There are examples of very successful players with
> such stances.
Can you think of anyone besides Earl with their arm like that? I have gone
through 75+ accustats and years of magazines to no avail.
Zach <---potentially looking under the wrong stone
>
> Pat Johnson
> Chicago
>
Fred Agnir
I think this is odd, Zach, because the elbow out isn't uncommon,
albeit to a lesser degree than Earl. If I recall, CJ Wiley also is
elbow out. Moncia Webb is way out there, too.
Fred
Zach
I did;t notice this on the match I have with CJ Wiley. but the camera angles
aren;t that good since it is an older tape. I will definitely check again.
I have never seen Monica Webb play, so I will have to take your word for it.
What I have figured out since starting this quest.......I am really
uncomfortable trying to have a closed stance. While I wouldn't describe me
stance as an open "snooker" stance, I am more open than closed. I am making
a conscious effort to keep my elbow tight (not tight as in a tight grip,
more like tight as in location???) against my body. While videotaping, I
can see that even with this position, my forearm is tilted a little, but not
nearly as much. I think that for my size, and more importantly, my shoulder
width, if I want to keep the cue between my eyes and my chin low my forearm
will be tilted somewhat. No matter how I stand, this tilted forearm is
unavoidable to some degree without incurring major discomfort.
Is this something like the process you went through while deciding on
keeping your chicken wing?
Zach <~~~~accepting his chicken wing, but likes it much better at the lesser
degree.
"Fred Agnir" <oha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5447edcf.02100...@posting.google.com...
Fred Agnir
> uncomfortable trying to have a closed stance. While I wouldn't describe me
> stance as an open "snooker" stance, I am more open than closed. I am making
> a conscious effort to keep my elbow tight (not tight as in a tight grip,
> more like tight as in location???) against my body. While videotaping, I
> can see that even with this position, my forearm is tilted a little, but not
> nearly as much. I think that for my size, and more importantly, my shoulder
> width, if I want to keep the cue between my eyes and my chin low my forearm
> will be tilted somewhat. No matter how I stand, this tilted forearm is
> unavoidable to some degree without incurring major discomfort.
>
> Is this something like the process you went through while deciding on
> keeping your chicken wing?
>
All of that and then some. If I closed my stance, I needed to
tilt/turn my head to get proper alignment. And that didn't feel very
good. If I tucked my elbow, my shoulder and lats(I think it's the lat
area) started to complain. I figure that since I've been doing it so
long, my muscles have actually developed to encourage the elbow-out
stance.
Fred
Ken Bour
game. What shots are you missing, under what circumstances, are there any
patterns, etc.? Your stance, the position of your eyes, forearm, grip,
elbow, etc., are not problems in and of themselves.
What's actually happening that leads you to think that your elbow position
may be limiting your progress?
Ken Bour
"Zach" <z...@visuallink.com> wrote in message
news:upi39ro...@corp.supernews.com...