Seeking a sighting system for cut shots.
Dean Franklin 'Frank' Coffman, Jr.
I am familiar with the "double the distance" method for aligning cut shots
based upon the spot on the object ball opposite the target: doubling the
distance from the object ball center and aiming at that imagined point.
What I want to know is if there is any cutting system based upon position
of the object ball on the table and table diamonds, or any sort of system
that indicates aiming point for cut shots.
I'm also into finding out all I can about diamond systems for banking and
kicking--or for getting out of jail after safeties and making a clean hit.
Anyone with suggestions?? All and any replies would be appreciated.
Thanks
Frank Coffman
Elgin, Illinois
fcof...@hotmail.com
Ron Shepard
In article <fcoffman-171...@news.primenet.com>,
fcof...@hotmail.com (Dean Franklin 'Frank' Coffman, Jr.) wrote:
>I am familiar with the "double the distance" method for aligning cut shots
>based upon the spot on the object ball opposite the target: doubling the
>distance from the object ball center and aiming at that imagined point.
I think you mean that you aim the cue ball center at the imagined point,
right? The "spot on the object ball opposite the target" is really what
you are aiming at, these other things are alternatives to help achieve
this goal.
>What I want to know is if there is any cutting system based upon position
>of the object ball on the table and table diamonds, or any sort of system
>that indicates aiming point for cut shots.
As I've posted before, I'm skeptical of any aiming method that relies on
aiming at diamonds on the table rather than at the ball itself.
For cut shots, particularly those thinner than a half-ball hit, you can
use the same "double the distance" idea. You first find the contact point
on the object ball, and view it from the perspective of the cue ball.
Then take the horizontal distance from that point to the nearest edge of
the object ball. Double that distance and determine the corresponding
spot on the object ball. Aim the inside edge of the cue ball at this
spot. This is the "inside edge factor of two" method that was originally
published, as far as I know, last year here in r.s.b. You heard it here
first, folks!
Another way to line up shots, again based on the same geometric idea, is
to determine the distance from the contact point on the object ball to the
outside edge, viewed as before from the cue ball position. When the cue
ball contacts the object ball at the right place, there is the same amount
of cue ball to one side of this contact point as there is object ball on
the other. Some players imagine three parallel lines, one corresponding
to the cue ball edge, one between the cue ball and object ball contact
points, and the other for the object ball edge, and they shoot the cue
ball parallel to these three lines (or railroad tracks).
Of course, in all of these aiming systems, the target contact point is not
necessarily opposite to the pocket center. The target point must be
adjusted based on the object ball throw -- just one more detail to make
all this even more interesting. This adjustment is often just an educated
guess, but in some cases it can be quantified more accurately. There is a
discussion of making this adjustment for natural roll topspin shots in
APAPP.
There was an article in P&B where several top players were interviewed and
asked about aiming methods. Some players use them routinely, some use
them as an extra check, and some never use them.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Pat Greenwald
Dean Franklin 'Frank' Coffman, Jr. Wrote :
> What I want to know is if there is any cutting system based upon position
> of the object ball on the table and table diamonds,
> I'm also into finding out all I can about diamond systems for banking and
> kicking--or for getting out of jail after safeties and making a clean
hit.
You could play 3C Billiards ( or carom to start ) talk to people who play
and ask for their recommendation. Raymond Ceulemans has a huge book on
systems and Alan Gilbert has one. But to get the practice you'll have to
play. And once you play.......
Pat Greenwald
PGree...@Lucent.Com
Adam Granatella
> For cut shots, particularly those thinner than a half-ball hit, you can
> use the same "double the distance" idea. You first find the contact
point
> on the object ball, and view it from the perspective of the cue ball.
> Then take the horizontal distance from that point to the nearest edge of
> the object ball. Double that distance and determine the corresponding
> spot on the object ball. Aim the inside edge of the cue ball at this
> spot. This is the "inside edge factor of two" method that was originally
> published, as far as I know, last year here in r.s.b. You heard it here
Woah...why get so involved? If anyone's seen the video "how to play pool
right" by the BCA and hosted by Jerry Briesath, there is a VERY simple
aiming system described. It doesn't deal with diamonds, doubling distance,
or anything else. To describe it simply:
Place an object ball in front of the side pocket about 3 inches away but
straight in. Now, place (for example), the 1 ball frozen to the object
ball in a straight line. The 1 ball is your point of aim, meaning, if you
are using a cue ball, you have to get your cue ball to "replace" the 1
ball, and the shot will go in. No matter what angle you shoot at, the
point of aim is always the same.
It's very hard to describe in words, but Jerry does an excellent job
showing it in the video. I recommend this $17.95 video to anyone at any
level of play. I'm not associated with the BCA or Jerry Briesath in any
way, but I have taken lessons from him and he is the best there is...
--
_______________________________________________________________
Adam "XaQ" Granatella Introspectre
ad...@execpc.com Intros...@execpc.com
http://www.execpc.com/~adamg/introspectre.html
"Imagine flying across the oceans, to be gone without a trace.
Only to wake in this prisoned shell, my body a corpse prepared
for Hell."
--- Introspectre, "Dream of Dead"
Ron Shepard
In article <01bbed08$5f206360$1a4c3903@beavis>, "Adam Granatella"
<ad...@execpc.com> wrote:
>> For cut shots, particularly those thinner than a half-ball hit, you can
>> use the same "double the distance" idea. You first find the contact
>point
>> on the object ball, and view it from the perspective of the cue ball.
>> Then take the horizontal distance from that point to the nearest edge of
>> the object ball. Double that distance and determine the corresponding
>> spot on the object ball. Aim the inside edge of the cue ball at this
>> spot. This is the "inside edge factor of two" method that was originally
>> published, as far as I know, last year here in r.s.b. You heard it here
>
>Woah...why get so involved? If anyone's seen the video "how to play pool
>right" by the BCA and hosted by Jerry Briesath, there is a VERY simple
>aiming system described. It doesn't deal with diamonds, doubling distance,
>or anything else. To describe it simply:
>
>Place an object ball in front of the side pocket about 3 inches away but
>straight in. Now, place (for example), the 1 ball frozen to the object
>ball in a straight line. The 1 ball is your point of aim, meaning, if you
>are using a cue ball, you have to get your cue ball to "replace" the 1
>ball, and the shot will go in. No matter what angle you shoot at, the
>point of aim is always the same.
There is, of course, collision and spin induced throw to account for, and
these change with the cut angle.
>It's very hard to describe in words, but Jerry does an excellent job
>showing it in the video. I recommend this $17.95 video to anyone at any
>level of play. I'm not associated with the BCA or Jerry Briesath in any
>way, but I have taken lessons from him and he is the best there is...
This is the "ghost ball" aiming method. You did a pretty good job of
describing it in words. It is also described in the BCA rules and records
book, in words with a few pictures. There is nothing wrong with this
system if it works for you. I think you must have a pretty good sense of
3-dimensions to use it -- some people do and some people don't. My
primary method, which involves contact points on the object and cue balls
also requires a good sense of 3-D, so some people can't use it. The
various "double the distance" and "inside edge factor of two" methods
attempt to reduce the 3-D problem to a simpler 2-D problem. If you are a
beginner, or if you are an experienced player who is not satisfied with
your present aiming method, I suggest that you try all of these approaches
to see if something helps. Don't be put off by how complicated it seems
when put into words, they all seem complicated that way; after you have
used any of these methods for a few minutes the whole process occurs
almost instantaneously. On important shots, you might even use more than
one of them just to make sure everything is lined up correctly. I think
it is best to pick one as the primary method and then use the others just
to check, but some players use different methods for different types of
shots (thick cuts, thin cuts, long shots, close shots, with or without
spin). Whatever you decide to use, make sure it works with and without
sidespin. If you pick something that only works for centerball hits, then
you are painting yourself into a corner.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Dean Franklin Frank Coffman, Jr.
In article <shepard-1712...@macrls.tcg.anl.gov>,
she...@tcg.anl.gov (Ron Shepard) wrote:
> I think you mean that you aim the cue ball center at the imagined point,
> right? The "spot on the object ball opposite the target" is really what
> you are aiming at, these other things are alternatives to help achieve
> this goal.
Yes, the "double the distance method" that I was referring to lines up
the cue ball center at this point, double the horizontal distance of the
contact point to the center of the object ball.
> >What I want to know is if there is any cutting system based upon position
> >of the object ball on the table and table diamonds, or any sort of system
> >that indicates aiming point for cut shots.
> As I've posted before, I'm skeptical of any aiming method that relies on
> aiming at diamonds on the table rather than at the ball itself.
I'm skeptical of them too, but are you aware of any? I'd like to know the
theory behind them and try out just how successful or unsuccesful they
are. Are there any diamond reference aim systems for cut shots? What
kind of math do they entail?
> For cut shots, particularly those thinner than a half-ball hit, you can
> use the same "double the distance" idea. You first find the contact point
> on the object ball, and view it from the perspective of the cue ball.
> Then take the horizontal distance from that point to the nearest edge of
> the object ball. Double that distance and determine the corresponding
> spot on the object ball. Aim the inside edge of the cue ball at this
> spot. This is the "inside edge factor of two" method that was originally
> published, as far as I know, last year here in r.s.b. You heard it here
> first, folks!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! for this one!! I'm going to try it out
as a sighting method ASAP. If I am understanding it correctly, it works
basically the same way as the "double the distance," (only in reverse,
sort of) except that I take horizontal distance to cutside edge of the
object ball, then aim the cutside edge of the cueball at a spot twice that
CLOSE to the center of the object ball.
> Another way to line up shots, again based on the same geometric idea, is
> to determine the distance from the contact point on the object ball to the
> outside edge, viewed as before from the cue ball position. When the cue
> ball contacts the object ball at the right place, there is the same amount
> of cue ball to one side of this contact point as there is object ball on
> the other. Some players imagine three parallel lines, one corresponding
> to the cue ball edge, one between the cue ball and object ball contact
> points, and the other for the object ball edge, and they shoot the cue
> ball parallel to these three lines (or railroad tracks).
Thanks for this one too. I've encountered it before in a book called
"Billiards Accuracy" by Marvin Chin (and elsewhere). By the way, I've
read all of Byrnes books and own the videos. I have quite a library of
pool and billiard books (including Billiards Atlas's 1 and 2--I've ordered
3)
> Of course, in all of these aiming systems, the target contact point is not
> necessarily opposite to the pocket center. The target point must be
> adjusted based on the object ball throw -- just one more detail to make
> all this even more interesting. This adjustment is often just an educated
> guess, but in some cases it can be quantified more accurately. There is a
> discussion of making this adjustment for natural roll topspin shots in
> APAPP.
Yes, I know that throw is a factor. Any formulae for predicting throw? I
guess you folks can tell by now that I'm trying to find out as much
SCIENCE to the ART of billiards as possible.
> There was an article in P&B where several top players were interviewed and
> asked about aiming methods. Some players use them routinely, some use
> them as an extra check, and some never use them.
>
> $.02 -Ron Shepard
Your quick reply and your two-cents worth (It's worth a lot more than
that!) Are greatly appreciated. Thanks Again
--
Frank Coffman
fcof...@hotmail.com
Elgin, Illinois
(847) 289-1403
Dean Franklin Frank Coffman, Jr.
In article <01bbec74$25ebea40$5ca6...@ccgr1.dr.lucent.com>, "Pat
Greenwald" <not-my-...@dr.lucent.com> wrote:
> Dean Franklin 'Frank' Coffman, Jr. Wrote :
>
> > What I want to know is if there is any cutting system based upon position
> > of the object ball on the table and table diamonds,
>
> > I'm also into finding out all I can about diamond systems for banking and
> > kicking--or for getting out of jail after safeties and making a clean
> hit.
>
> You could play 3C Billiards ( or carom to start ) talk to people who play
> and ask for their recommendation. Raymond Ceulemans has a huge book on
> systems and Alan Gilbert has one. But to get the practice you'll have to
> play. And once you play.......
>
Thanks for the quick reply, Pat! I'm a pretty fair long-time amateur at
pool (48 years old, used to skip school occasionally to play at Tozer's in
Decatur, Illinois--Strange! I teach college, funny how life leads us).
My father was very good at 3C and balkline (I saw him run more than 10 on
several occasions--his high was 16). I play occasionally, and I'm
familiar with all the basic systems: Corner 5, Plus, etc.
I have been trying to adapt billiard systems to pool and have had good
luck with some kicking and banking systems (System Sid described in
Billiard Atlas 2 for example has been very helpful for getting out of jail
and for kick shots at 8-ball and 9-ball)
> Pat Greenwald
> PGree...@Lucent.Com
Dean Franklin Frank Coffman, Jr.
> > For cut shots, particularly those thinner than a half-ball hit, you can
> > use the same "double the distance" idea. You first find the contact
> point
> > on the object ball, and view it from the perspective of the cue ball.
> > Then take the horizontal distance from that point to the nearest edge of
> > the object ball. Double that distance and determine the corresponding
> > spot on the object ball. Aim the inside edge of the cue ball at this
> > spot. This is the "inside edge factor of two" method that was originally
> > published, as far as I know, last year here in r.s.b. You heard it here
>
> Woah...why get so involved? If anyone's seen the video "how to play pool
> right" by the BCA and hosted by Jerry Briesath, there is a VERY simple
> aiming system described. It doesn't deal with diamonds, doubling distance,
> or anything else. To describe it simply:
>
> Place an object ball in front of the side pocket about 3 inches away but
> straight in. Now, place (for example), the 1 ball frozen to the object
> ball in a straight line. The 1 ball is your point of aim, meaning, if you
> are using a cue ball, you have to get your cue ball to "replace" the 1
> ball, and the shot will go in. No matter what angle you shoot at, the
> point of aim is always the same.
>
> It's very hard to describe in words, but Jerry does an excellent job
> showing it in the video. I recommend this $17.95 video to anyone at any
> level of play. I'm not associated with the BCA or Jerry Briesath in any
> way, but I have taken lessons from him and he is the best there is...
Thanks for the tip on the "Ghost Ball" method. My new query would be--and
I think I'm right in this--this would be great for a practice routine to
get a feel for angle: simply "replace" the frozen ball with the cue
ball--sight dead on and get the feel for amount of cut from various
angles. But my corollary question becomes this: it would be dead illegal
in a game as a perfect reference check (i.e. carrying around your own
object ball and temporarily putting it on the table as a sighting aid
before the shot) Illegal right?
Thanks again for the prompt reply to my sighting system question.
dy
>
>> >What I want to know is if there is any cutting system based upon position
>> >of the object ball on the table and table diamonds, or any sort of system
>> >that indicates aiming point for cut shots.
>
>> As I've posted before, I'm skeptical of any aiming method that relies on
>> aiming at diamonds on the table rather than at the ball itself.
>
>I'm skeptical of them too, but are you aware of any? I'd like to know the
>theory behind them and try out just how successful or unsuccesful they
>are. Are there any diamond reference aim systems for cut shots? What
>kind of math do they entail?
>
Randy Kukla in Bay City, Michigan was selling such a system a while
back. He ran some ad's but I can't remember when or where. You could
try giving him a call.
dy
Adam Granatella
> spin). Whatever you decide to use, make sure it works with and without
> sidespin. If you pick something that only works for centerball hits,
then
> you are painting yourself into a corner.
That's a very good point Ron. I just re-read your aiming method and then
read what I wrote, and yes, they are both confusing when put into words. I
think that's what threw me off (also reading Bob's thread on chances of
running 100), just the wording..
Adam Granatella
> Thanks for the tip on the "Ghost Ball" method. My new query would
be--and
> I think I'm right in this--this would be great for a practice routine to
> get a feel for angle: simply "replace" the frozen ball with the cue
> ball--sight dead on and get the feel for amount of cut from various
> angles. But my corollary question becomes this: it would be dead
illegal
> in a game as a perfect reference check (i.e. carrying around your own
> object ball and temporarily putting it on the table as a sighting aid
> before the shot) Illegal right?
Yeah that would be. The only case where it would be legal is if you have
ball and hand, but you cannot touch the cue ball to any other ball on the
table...
> Thanks again for the prompt reply to my sighting system question.
I've never really used any sort of aiming system that I had any concsious
knowledge of. Since watching the BCA tape once and a while I imagine the
ghost ball, but usually it's all instinct :)
Bob Jewett
Dean Franklin 'Frank' Coffman, Jr. (fcof...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: What I want to know is if there is any cutting system based upon
: position of the object ball on the table and table diamonds, or any
: sort of system that indicates aiming point for cut shots.
I know someone who had such a system. He was one of the best money
players in this area. It works like this: find the angle of the object
ball into the pocket relative to the rails. A ball on the rail would be
zero, on the spot would be 45 degrees into a close pocket, etc. Look at
the angle the estimated path of the cue ball would make with the same rail.
To calculate these two angles, he had memorized tables of tangents after
finding them on a scientific calculator (I helped him with some details
of the calculation -- diamonds are not at the nose of the rail).
Subtract the two angles and you have the angle of the cut. Now for the
hard part. He had the object ball divided into 64ths. He knew what a
19/64s-full hit looked like. He knew what cut angle corresponded to
19/64s.
Most good players aim by feel. There is no system that is accurate
enough to consistently pocket a ball more than three diamonds from a
pocket. (Well, maybe the phantom ball system if it includes Ron
Shepard's throw corrections.)
Most aiming systems are geometrically equivalent to the phantom ball
method. All the ones I know that aren't equivalent are pitifully
wrong. Byrne discusses at least one such bogus system in his latest
book, "Byrne's Wonderful World of Pool and Billiards."
Bob Jewett
Bob Jewett
Dean Franklin "Frank" Coffman, Jr. (fcof...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: I have been trying to adapt billiard systems to pool and have had good
: luck with some kicking and banking systems (System Sid described in
: Billiard Atlas 2 for example has been very helpful for getting out of jail
: and for kick shots at 8-ball and 9-ball)
With that system, you should renumber the rails. The numbers given
by Harris are a simplification for easier memorization and about 1/6
diamond wrong in places. It's best to calibrate your own table.
Bob Jewett
Ron Shepard
In article <jewettE2...@netcom.com>, jew...@netcom.com (Bob Jewett) wrote:
[...]
>Most good players aim by feel. There is no system that is accurate
>enough to consistently pocket a ball more than three diamonds from a
Here is a way to test some aspects of the accuracy of a particular aiming
"system". Instead of hitting the object ball directly with the cue ball,
place another ball in the "ghost ball" position before each shot, and
shoot the ghost ball straight on. Use the "system" you are testing to
judge where to place the ghost ball, which of course is now a real ball
(the "unghost" ball?). Don't cheat yourself on this step: use the system
that you are testing to place the unghost ball in its position.
You cannot test the part of your aiming system that depends on the
relation between cue ball spin and object ball throw this way; every shot
will have the equivalent of stun-shot throw (which I believe is the
maximum possible, but that is a different topic :-). There is a small
amount of spin that can be transferred this way, but it is not the same as
hitting directly with the cue ball.
If you find yourself making all the shots this way, then your aiming
"system" is fine, and any shots that you are missing in your regular play
aren't due to the aiming system but rather to execution errors or
incorrect estimations of the object ball throw. If you find that you miss
routinely certain types of shots with the unghost ball method, or that you
miss a shot by larger and larger amounts as the cut angle changes
smoothly, then your aiming "system" is wrong -- time to go back to the
blackboard.
After you find a system that works for you and is geometrically correct,
then you can start worrying about object ball throw. Some discussion of
the general spin case is in "Amateur Physics for the Amateur Pool Player",
but I have to admit that even after you understand throw at this level,
correct execution on a pool table still depends on subjective experience.
Read that as practice, practice, and more practice :-). Of course, this
practice is perhaps more focused, so someone might be able to learn from
their experience more quickly after working through the equations. One
exception perhaps is the natural roll topspin situation (which,
fortunately, is probably the most important one to know) which can be
quantified fairly well without much "judgement" required (see problem 4.6
in APAPP for more details; an example is given in the text).
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Artur Roytburg
In article <shepard-1812...@macrls.tcg.anl.gov>,
Ron Shepard <she...@tcg.anl.gov> wrote:
>In article <01bbed08$5f206360$1a4c3903@beavis>, "Adam Granatella"
><ad...@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>>> For cut shots, particularly those thinner than a half-ball hit, you can
>>> use the same "double the distance" idea. You first find the contact
>>point
>>> on the object ball, and view it from the perspective of the cue ball.
>>> Then take the horizontal distance from that point to the nearest edge of
>>> the object ball. Double that distance and determine the corresponding
>>> spot on the object ball. Aim the inside edge of the cue ball at this
>>> spot. This is the "inside edge factor of two" method that was originally
>>> published, as far as I know, last year here in r.s.b. You heard it here
>>
>>Woah...why get so involved? If anyone's seen the video "how to play pool
>>right" by the BCA and hosted by Jerry Briesath, there is a VERY simple
>>aiming system described. It doesn't deal with diamonds, doubling distance,
>>or anything else. To describe it simply:
>>
>>Place an object ball in front of the side pocket about 3 inches away but
>>straight in. Now, place (for example), the 1 ball frozen to the object
>>ball in a straight line. The 1 ball is your point of aim, meaning, if you
>>are using a cue ball, you have to get your cue ball to "replace" the 1
>>ball, and the shot will go in. No matter what angle you shoot at, the
>>point of aim is always the same.
>
>these change with the cut angle.
>
>>showing it in the video. I recommend this $17.95 video to anyone at any
>>level of play. I'm not associated with the BCA or Jerry Briesath in any
>>way, but I have taken lessons from him and he is the best there is...
>
>describing it in words. It is also described in the BCA rules and records
>book, in words with a few pictures. There is nothing wrong with this
>system if it works for you. I think you must have a pretty good sense of
>3-dimensions to use it -- some people do and some people don't. My
>primary method, which involves contact points on the object and cue balls
>also requires a good sense of 3-D, so some people can't use it. The
>various "double the distance" and "inside edge factor of two" methods
>attempt to reduce the 3-D problem to a simpler 2-D problem. If you are a
>beginner, or if you are an experienced player who is not satisfied with
>your present aiming method, I suggest that you try all of these approaches
>to see if something helps. Don't be put off by how complicated it seems
>when put into words, they all seem complicated that way; after you have
>used any of these methods for a few minutes the whole process occurs
>almost instantaneously. On important shots, you might even use more than
>one of them just to make sure everything is lined up correctly. I think
>it is best to pick one as the primary method and then use the others just
>to check, but some players use different methods for different types of
>shots (thick cuts, thin cuts, long shots, close shots, with or without
>sidespin. If you pick something that only works for centerball hits, then
>you are painting yourself into a corner.
>
Hi all. I am a bigginer in pool and just started reading this newsgroup.
I am going to describe in a few words what I use to help me make these
cut shots - it may help other begginers like me. What I do is first I
allign the cue ball with the object ball. Then, I slowly rotate my cue
with respect to the cue ball vertical axis. The angle of rotation from
the alligned position is exactly the angle by which the object ball will
be cut from the alligned position. Once I rotate the proper amount (in
my opinion) I take the shot. It seems that with practice my angle
perception improved dramatically. I would be happy to hear any
criticism/comments on my technique.
Thanks
Artur
JOE LE PRO
Is the aiming method missing from my bag of tricks what's keeping me from
being a champion? I doubt it. Quite frankly, I think you're making this
way tooo complicated.
When cutting a ball, use the same method you use for straight in shots.
Call it the ghost ball replacement if that makes you feel good. Aim for
the spot along the center of the object ball into the target. Then hit it
a little thinner or use a little "outside" english to compensate for the
throw. When you need to use "inside" to get there, remember to compensate
by hitting it extra thin. All the fancy aiming methods can't replace
practice. I do advocate aiming methods for some kicks and banks
though------JOE LE PRO