Trick shots are more than trick shots!
Tom Rossman
"trick shots" were considered "setup shots", and/or some shots that
involved some special "trick" (by deception in many cases) to impress
an awaiting fan or audience group. In 1991, "artistic pool" started
with a concept similar to gymnastics, where "gymnastics" is an
"umbrella" word over "parallel bars, rings, pommel horse, etc.".
Under "artistic pool" as an "umbrella" word, there are 8 disciplines
to test the skill of international superstars from around the globe.
They are as follows: 1) Trick and Fancy Shots, 2)
Prop/Novelty/Special Arts, 3) Draw Shots, 4) Follow Shots, 5)
Bank/Kick Shots, 6) Stroke Shots, 7) Jump Shots, and 8) Masse Shots.
There are 2 formats currently being used: 1) The ESPN Trick Shot
Magic one without degrees of difficulty and only 2 attempts allowed
per shot...in a "horse" style presentation, and 2) The sanctioned WPA
(World Pool Billiard Association) events with assigned degrees of
difficulty (DOD's) in a "golf course" presentation, and where 3
attempts are allowed per shot...with decreasing points earned for
making the challenge on the 2nd or 3rd try.
Presently, we have a website, which is being updated to accommodate
our new players group called IAPA (International Artistic Poolplayers
Association) and our 2003/2004 world tour. Sometime after August 15,
this site should be active with tour listings, bios of the players,
shot/challenge downloads, past records, and exciting news of upcoming
IAPA projects. www.artisticpool.org will be a resource for any
"artistic pool" information that a player or fan might need.
One other note of importance is that "artistic pool" is probably
the most exciting discipline of our sport to come along in a long
time...with its professional image, professional demeanor, and
professional skills. The days of "trick shots" have taken their
journey to a new and magnetic cuesport artform called "artistic pool".
Welcome aboard!!
Tom "Dr. Cue" Rossman, "Artistic Pool" Crusader
2002 ESPN Trick Shot Magic Champion
Jim Wyant
Thank you for this post. Recently I've been enjoying the Trick Shot
Challenge tourney's on ESPN. In addition to seeing in practice some of the
incredible things that "can" be done, it provides additional insight into
what is reasonable to expect during normal playing conditions.
But what I think I like best is the explanations before the shots. Knowing
what someone is attempting makes it much more fun than watching a pool
tournament where a player just works his way around the table. Of course
the emotion and excitement you and your competitors bring to shot successes
is great, far better than the poker face the pros put on during pool
tournaments.
Recently there's been another spate of "chasing away top players" in these
on-line forums because they weren't thick-skinned enough to hang around and
get into the flow of the transient dialogue. Hopefully you'll hang around
for a while, or if nothing else, lurk about and just follow dialogues until
you feel comfortable about engaging in some of these topic areas.
Again, thanks and I'm looking forward to your input.
--Jim
On 7/27/03 3:34 PM, in article
b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com, "Tom Rossman"
lfigueroa
OK, OK, just kidding.
Lou Figueroa
but guessing we're not going to get much more than artistic pool ads
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
Bob Johnson
prick!" Whoa, wait, that was Grady Seasons!
Welcome to RSB Dr. Cue! Your input will be much appreciated. In the event
some idiot decides to call you names, try not to take it personally. I
blush at the thought of some of the things I've been called, and the worst
are by my friends and family!
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
Steve Ellis
With all due respect to your ability and that of your compatriots, I find "Artistic Pool" of very
little interest and much less entertaining than a normal competition of any discipline. I put it in
the same category as the Home Run Derby during the All-Star break or the slam dunk contest the NBA
puts on. I also think the term "Artistic Pool" is inappropriate. IMHO, it isn't an art form no
matter how you slice it. It provides no appeal to one's aesthetic senses. I wish you well and I
think what I still prefer to refer to as trick shots (because that's what they are) will do well
with a large part of the pool community and what is more important with a large part of the general
public. Any positive opinions it can bring about pool are more than a welcome occurrence.
I'm interested in what the opinion of somebody like Deno who is genuinely interested in "real art"
and is a very high calibre billiards player would have to say about whether or not it is "artistic".
Steve.
Steve Ellis
>If you're really Dr. Cue, let's hear you say, "ya got lucky, ya lucky
>prick!" Whoa, wait, that was Grady Seasons!
>
>Welcome to RSB Dr. Cue! Your input will be much appreciated. In the event
>some idiot decides to call you names, try not to take it personally. I
>blush at the thought of some of the things I've been called, and the worst
>are by my friends and family!
From what I've heard about Dr. Cue and his deep moral base, if some of the comments that have been
address at people around here were address at him it would indeed be inappropriate.
Bob Johnson
scene. Hopefully, if it happens, he won't take it personally.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Co.
bo...@cris.com
"Steve Ellis" <rsb-asp@REMOVE_THISs-c-ellis.com> wrote in message
news:bec9iv4t8itfph577...@4ax.com...
Deno J. Andrews
pool rather than trick shots. Yes, I am someone who is quite fond of "real
art..." and am also someone who plays "artistic billiards (not artistic
pool)." There is a distinct difference between trick shots and artistic
pool. As you note, trick shots are set up and knocked down, requiring only
a hint of talent as long as you know the proper setup. What makes an
artistic shot is not just the setup, but the ability to execute a shot that
most others cannot do regardless of the setup. Look at it like this- in
painting, you have original art and paint by numbers. There is no possible
way anyone can make a case for someone who paints a paint by numbers, to be
considered an artist. The setup is a given, the colors are predetermined,
the proper tools come in the kit...you get the idea. Just about anyone who
can keep the brush inside the lines can make a nice looking painting...but
at no time are they creating anything.
Now in artistic pool, granted, they still use a great deal of shots that
don't require much skill at all beyond that of a C+ player, but it is
changing, and changing fast. Many of the artistic pool players have learned
from artistic billiard players, including Dr. Cue, and have elevated their
skills and imagination on the table. This elevation of sorts has created
beautiful shots that require a high level of skill to achieve. Sort of the
way a paint by number maker may be moved by art and learns to actually
create fine art works on his own. I am not saying that Dr. Cue is/was a
paint by numbers pool player (in fact it is quite the opposite), but instead
consider that the industry has never until yet called for artistic pool or
anything beyond setup shots.
What's great about billiards is that any trick shot is an artistic shot
because they all require a higher level of skill than the average and even
above average player has. The most basic artistic billiard shot is
virtually impossible to make by most 3C players in the country...including
some very advanced players. So while the setup is important, there is an
amount of skill that is required to make the shots also. Sort of like
needing be good at drawing to make a fine painting...the skill is needed
both in the setup (the drawing) and also in the execution of the painting.
I would love to see what Dr. Cue is doing turn into a pure artistic pool
without any of the classic setup shots that require little skill to achieve.
But it will take some time because the industry and the fans like to see
what they know already, plus a little of what they have never seen. So the
answer is, in my opinion, that there are an infinite number of shots that
are pure art because they require the imagination, knowledge, and the skill
to execute, and must also cater to the emotions (which the good one's
do)...but we have yet to see a program of all pure art, mostly because pool
players are not yet ready to experience such a departure...and pool players
are not yet skilled enough (as a whole) to perform even the easy artistic
billiard shots (except for a couple only). But Dr. Cue's work in this area
is surely speeding up the process of bringing players to the level they need
to be at to perform artistic pool. The concept has to start somewhere...and
Dr. Cue has started it. I am confident that in five years, the twenty or so
setup shots that you or anyone for that matter are familiar with, none of
the shots will be played in artistic pool because they will lack the "art,"
and will not require enough skill to satisfy what will become an educated
audience.
Deno J. Andrews
"Steve Ellis" <rsb-asp@REMOVE_THISs-c-ellis.com> wrote in message
news:9lb9iv8i1e30bse8a...@4ax.com...
John Kirchel
What senior Thomas el Cue Doctor was trying to explain was that... what
WAS commonly known as trick shots NOW are being called "artistic pool".
Because they have added a degree of talent and difficulty to the mix. Sure I
can setup and knock down the butterfly and football shot (after several
attempts mind you). I have seen and tried some of the forced follow and
severe draw shots that have been presented on ESPN. I could sit there all
day and try and do a force follow that strikes a ball and passes it to knock
in another ball before the first one gets down the rail and never make it.
He is promoting the new idea of "trick shots" and trying to break away from
the mindset that it is the same old bag. Nothing wrong with that.
John<---- Could be wrong but that is how I read it...
P.S. Glad to see you post Mr. Rossman. Don't worry I won't ask if you
freebase :)
"Deno J. Andrews" <deno-a...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:T_0Va.27397$BM.88...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Tom Rossman
In review of the messages posted to date, I can only say that God
loves each person on this site. He will see each word printed, so I
will let Him take care of "negative" or "vulgar" language. For
anyone wanting to know what the word "artistic" really means, please
consult Webster or McMillian. I believe either of these great
educators will verify why we refer to our billiard discipline as a
vehicle to promote the "art" of pocket billiards. And, finally, for
anyone concerned about advertising ploys, etc. on this group
discussion site, please be assured that there is a time and place for
that, and this is not that time and place.
My personal thanks to those that support our cause and those that
someday will come on board, after they truly see what we have to
offer, instead of just "trick shots" by themselves. Educating the
masses for "artistic pool" is a gigantic task, but our hearts are up
to the task.
Best Victories, The "Artistic" Way, Tom "Dr. Cue" Rossman
sam
the "Happy Hopper" as your jump cue of choice or have you switched. Someone
here has suggested that you found a new Jump Cue that you like better. Just
wondering. :o) Sincerely, Sam
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
Steve
> ...
> He is promoting the new idea of "trick shots" and trying to break away from
> the mindset that it is the same old bag. Nothing wrong with that.
>
> John<---- Could be wrong but that is how I read it...
>
I would not for a moment suggest that what I've seen on ESPN is
anything vaguely resembling the trick shots run of the mill players
do. The shots they take require extrordinary talent, skill, and
dedication to practice. The only thing I question was the application
of the adjective "artistic" to the concept. I've also seen an
"artistic billiards" tape from accu-stats and as Deno says what they
do is even more mind boggling. Though it did seem to me that the
billiards people used special cues more than the pool people do.
My main original point (of course I got side-tracked) was that I
personally don't find "trick shots" or "artistic pool" or "artistic
billiards" nearly as entertaining as a good match of 8-ball, 9-ball,
14.1, or billiards. I've only seen 1 tape of 1-P and 1 of bank pool
and found them pretty boring. And of course playing against a
well-matched opponent is more entertain than watching any discipline.
I'm sure Tom Rossman, Mike Massey, etc. are not dependent upon my
being entertained to make a living and that they'll bring a great deal
of entertainment and pleasure to others.
Steve. <-- Can't generally make even the simple trick shots.
lfigueroa
Lou Figueroa
good to see Tom got his RSB cherry popped so quickly :-)
"Steve Ellis" <rsb-asp@REMOVE_THISs-c-ellis.com> wrote in message
news:9lb9iv8i1e30bse8a...@4ax.com...
Patrick Johnson
> ... I can only say that God loves each person on this site.
Well, nobody's perfect...
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Patrick Johnson
> ... I could sit there all
> day and try and do a force follow that strikes a ball and passes it to knock
> in another ball before the first one gets down the rail and never make it.
This is more of a "follow masse" than a force follow, and I think you
could learn to make it in an hour once the stroke was shown to you. On
the other hand, it's one of the simplest "artistic shots"...
Pat Johnson
Chicago
pltrgyst
<patrick...@attbi.com> wrote:
>Tom Rossman wrote:
>> ... I can only say that God loves each person on this site.
>
>Well, nobody's perfect...
Wow, you can say that again -- take a look at the Web site. "Blessings
and supernatural guidance", indeed. Sorta the opposite of Landover
Baptist Church (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/).
-- Larry
pltrgyst
wrote:
>There is a new "kid" on the block called "artistic pool".
Around our house, we call it "autistic pool", because it's so far from
the reality of actual interactive competition.
Pool has no element of defense other than the leave. In autistic pool,
that key element of pool that makes it an interactive game, the leave,
has been removed. Without that, pool becomes no better than bowling;
just different.
Besides, where's the autistic game to go after Mike Massey's jump shot
with the two balls atop the Coke bottle? Drag more and more equipment
onto the table until it turns into the pool equivalent of miniature
golf?
Another good name for it might be "carny pool" -- an exhibition tour
for those who can't take the psychological presure of interactive
competition.
-- Larry
Fred Agnir
I also think the term "Artistic Pool" is inappropriate. IMHO, it isn't
an art form no
> matter how you slice it.
When Paul Guerney hit this 4-rail, massé, wing shot (9-ball into
pocket A) on TV, I'd call it aesthetically pleasing and artistic.
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/
START(
%Ak0G6%If8V3%Ov4X5%Pi9G5%QA9A9%Uk4Z8%Vr1S9%WI4E1%XD5G4%Yq8R9
%ZK0D5%[J3D7%\j6[0%]E4H4%^e6U9%_J8D7%`[7F7%ai0G5
)END
Fred <~~~ can't remember the exact path
Patrick Johnson
> Around our house, we call it "autistic pool", because it's so far from
> the reality of actual interactive competition.
The shots themselves may be, but they illustrate skills that are
translatable to "actual interactive competition", as you'd probably
realize quickly if you played any of these guys a game or two.
Besides, it doesn't have to be practical to be entertaining and
worthwhile. That's why they call it artistic.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Stoney
> Around our house, we call it "autistic pool", because it's so far from
> the reality of actual interactive competition.
And your house would be a...........8X50 trailer?
> (Snipped some babbling)
> Another good name for it might be "carny pool" -- an exhibition tour
> for those who can't take the psychological presure of interactive
> competition.
"Carny pool" - if you are referring to the carnival game - was designed to
separate the rubes (that's you) from their tobacco money. Having worked a
Carny for two summers I'm familiar with how it works and it is easy once you
know how. Apparently you were a slow learner. Try some of the artistic
shots - those without props, I don't think you'll get any further with them
than you did with Carny pool.
Regards,
Stoney
BTW I am offended at the term "autistic pool" in the derogatory manner you
used it in your post. It's easy to insult someone who can't take exception
on their own. You ain't near as fuckin' clever as you think.
> -- Larry
>
Mark0
Mark0 <--big Dr Cue fan
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
WilleeCue
I saw Tom perform at the Super Billiards Expo year before last and he is a very
enteraining person.
I wish I could see his perfromance more often.
William Lee
"Mark0" <markmc...@arterchay.etnay> wrote in message
news:vibeead...@corp.supernews.com...
sam
"Autism" is a very serious developmental disorder in children. I am sure
that a number of people here either HAVE or KNOW OF an Autistic Child. I
don't know whether you were trying to insult Tom Rossman or the
parents/relatives/friends of Autistic Children. In any event, you surprised
me this time. My wife had polio as a child, she recovered. Please don't
start on Polio Pool. :o) Sincerely, Sam
"pltrgyst" <pltr...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:q0eaivopj1d17uosf...@4ax.com...
Dean
matter what venue they use. You are a great Ambassador. Thank you and tell
Marti hi for me.
Dean Bradley
Billiard Street Cafe
MNBCA President
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
Tom Rossman
From Dr Cue...
Thank you, Deno, for your input! Good to hear from you. First of
all, I have never suggested "trick shots" are simply setup and you
"knock them down". There are some like that, but in what we are doing
with "artistic pool", and specifically, the Trick and/or Fancy Shot
Discipline, that is not the case and don't simulate that stigma in any
respect. Anyone that wants to join our world tour can find out
exactly how "easy" they are. We welcome all to just set them up, and
"knock them down"!!
On another issue, "art" is in the eyes of the beholder. When we
started "artistic pool", we knew "artistic billiards - carom" had its
type of shot selections, and we wanted specialty shots for pool, but
in the discipline catagories, with each testing the "master" skills at
various degrees of difficulty. Over 325 shots were submitted from
around the world from the greatest artists of pool. Robert Byrne,
Michael Shamos, Belinda Campos, Willie Jopling, and "Fast Eddie"
Parker expertly provided us a 40 shot/challenge program. Each year
since 2000, it has been "tuned", and starting in 2005 we are planning
a "master book" of over 100 shots, broken down into the 8 disciplines.
The carom players have years and years of experience at "artistic
billiards -- carom", and the definition of "artistic" took an entirely
different journey to success. What "artistic pool" has done is to go
back to the roots of the true meaning of "artistic" per the Webster
and/or Macmillan dictionaries. We use a simple concept, but extremely
challenging shots, and present them to our fans and players. The
response and acceptance has been nothing short of fantastic.
If we reversed the initial billiard exposure to "artistic" as starting
with "pool" decades, and assumed "artistic carom" was now the "new kid
on the block", there would probably be those that would say that
"artistic carom" was not "artistic" totally...due to its not providing
shots/challenges that the person sitting in the audience thinks he or
she can do, or at least would like to attempt.
THE BEAUTY OF "ART" MAKES EACH PERSON FEEL GOOD AND THAT IS EXACTLY
WHAT "ARTISTIC POOL" HAS BEEN DOING TO THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ALL OVER
THE WORLD IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME!!! Let's come to a mutual
agreement that both disciplines are "artistic" and accept each others
agendas and promotions for the good of our whole sport.
"Artistic pool" is defined as: Beauty, skillfully, and tastefully
done, aesthetically pleasing...relating to or characteristic of one
who is skilled in public performance or one who exhibits artistry or
skill in his or her work. Art is a skill or "knack". "Artistic Pool"
is the umbrella word for these skills and/or "knacks".
I like that name Thomas el Cue Doctor. Thank you! And, to answer
the question on which jump cue I use now. I have a "Jumpin James"
Jump Daddy, which jumps just like the Happy Hopper. I retired the
latter for several reasons, but was totally satisfied with it each
time I used it. Anyone that has the Happy Hopper should consider it
the best on the market, with its "twin brother", the Jump Daddy.
God bless each of you! Tom "Dr. Cue" Rossman
sam
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
Bob Jewett
> Around our house, we call it "autistic pool", because it's so
> far from the reality of actual interactive competition.
I've been known to call the carom version similarly but that
doesn't mean I don't like it a lot, and spend a lot of time
working on the shots.
> Besides, where's the autistic game to go after Mike Massey's
> jump shot with the two balls atop the Coke bottle?
You may want to look into how Artistic Pool is actually played.
> Another good name for it might be "carny pool" -- an exhibition
> tour for those who can't take the psychological presure of
> interactive competition.
Isn't pro golf a more lucrative outlet for spineless cowards who
can't take the pressure of interactive competition?
--
Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/
Tom Rossman
> Welcome to RSB Tom. It's always nice to see someone promoting our sport no
> matter what venue they use. You are a great Ambassador. Thank you and tell
> Marti hi for me.
>
> Dean Bradley
> Billiard Street Cafe
> MNBCA President
>
My thanks to Mark, Bob, William, and Dean for helping to
maintain a healthy chain of communication. I really appreciate your
input and support of what Marty and I are doing for this sport that we
all love. It is a team effort and each of you is doing your part
also. May each of you have many victories in your game and life.
Your friend, Tom..."Dr. Cue"
Tom Rossman
> matter what venue they use. You are a great Ambassador. Thank you and tell
> Marti hi for me.
>
> Dean Bradley
> Billiard Street Cafe
> MNBCA President
>
I will try this again! Thanks to Sam, Bob, Mark, William, and
Dean. I am sorry for the omission of names and/or incorrect posting
in my last post.
God bless each of you! Tom..."Dr. Cue"
Deno J. Andrews
> all, I have never suggested "trick shots" are simply setup and you
> "knock them down". There are some like that, but in what we are doing
> with "artistic pool", and specifically, the Trick and/or Fancy Shot
> Discipline, that is not the case and don't simulate that stigma in any
> respect.
I think if you re read my post, you will see that I have said just what you
have said here. I think what you are doing is great...and that most of the
shots in your program qualify as "artistic pool" rather than trick shots.
There are a number of shots that still find their way into the program that
don't require a large amount of skill...but as I said, in a few years, there
will no hint of them.
Deno
pltrgyst
<patrick...@attbi.com> wrote:
>The shots themselves may be, but they illustrate skills that are
>translatable to "actual interactive competition", as you'd probably
>realize quickly if you played any of these guys a game or two.
Oh, of course. And, to his credit, Massey, among others, does play
normal pool touraments now and then. I didn't denigrate anyone's
skills; I just opined that the stress of "competition" is much
reduced.
>Besides, it doesn't have to be practical to be entertaining and
>worthwhile. That's why they call it artistic.
Agreed that it's entertaining once in a while, but there seems to be a
lot more trick shot pool on the various ESPN channels these days than
there is actual pool, and I think that's a shame.
-- Larry
pltrgyst
<jew...@sfbilliards.com> wrote:
>Isn't pro golf a more lucrative outlet for spineless cowards who
>can't take the pressure of interactive competition?
I don't know that avoid competitive pressure makes one a "spineless
coward", but golf certainly lacks the competitive stress of, say,
tournament chess.
-- Larry
Don M.
wrote:
Good morning Tom. I've watched your demonstrations in Las Vegas in
years past and one or two artistic matches on ESPN. I've seen your
jump shots; where you jump the cue into the rack, knock the eight ball
out and also have the cue ball jump back out. With jump shots and
masse shots I notice the felt is absolutely ruined and wonder if these
shots leave depressions in the slate also?
I refuse to jump or masse on my home table. Am I correct in doing so?
Don Martin >---
Jim Eales
How does one go about acquiring such a book?
Jim Eales
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
starting in 2005 we are planning
Larry Larson
wrote:
>"pltrgyst" <pltr...@covad.net> babbled
>> Around our house, we call it "autistic pool", because it's so far from
>> the reality of actual interactive competition.
>
>And your house would be a...........8X50 trailer?
Hey, we're not trash; it's a 12-by expandable.
>"Carny pool" - if you are referring to the carnival game - was designed to
>separate the rubes (that's you) from their tobacco money.
Nope -- it was a made-up term. I'd never heard of actual "carny pool."
>BTW I am offended at the term "autistic pool" in the derogatory manner you
>used it in your post. It's easy to insult someone who can't take exception
>on their own. You ain't near as fuckin' clever as you think.
Be offended away. No insult was intended or rendered to anyone
exhibiting medical autism; the word "autism" has meaning apart from
the medical definition. You might try consulting a dictionary
occasionally. People like you who are so eager to impose your
politically-correct agenda on the English language ought to hang
socially around medical professionals a bit more to hear really
biting, politically-incorrect humor. The people who deal with mental
and physical afflictions on a daily basis aren't nearly so sensitive
in talking about it.
-- Larry (whose wife has a PDD-Autistic Disorder older sister for whom
we are legal guardians)
Larry Larson
>Larry, I can't believe you said that without following it with an apology.
>"Autism" is a very serious developmental disorder in children. I am sure
>that a number of people here either HAVE or KNOW OF an Autistic Child. I
>don't know whether you were trying to insult Tom Rossman or the
>parents/relatives/friends of Autistic Children. In any event, you surprised
>me this time. My wife had polio as a child, she recovered. Please don't
>start on Polio Pool. :o) Sincerely, Sam
>
>
Sam,
You might read my reply to Deno elsewhere in the thread.
-- Larry
Larry Larson
<jew...@sfbilliards.com> wrote:
>Isn't pro golf a more lucrative outlet for spineless cowards who
>can't take the pressure of interactive competition?
A more apt analog to artistic pool would be the basketball game of
h-o-r-s-e. The sole procedural difference I can see is that artistic
pool affords contestants two tries at each shot.
In h-o-r-s-e, as in artistic pool, great skill certainly is required.
H-o-r-s-e has been played for large sums of money among top NBA
players as well as h-o-r-s-e specialists. Yet no one seriously
considers h-o-r-s-e specialists to be great basketball players;
there's not one in the basketball Hall of Fame.
-- Larry
Bob Jewett
> A more apt analog to artistic pool would be the basketball game
> of h-o-r-s-e. The sole procedural difference I can see is that
> artistic pool affords contestants two tries at each shot.
Well, no, not really. There is an ESPN staged-for-TV event,
that is like h-o-r-s-e but it is not an Artistic Pool
competition.
In Artistic Pool, each contestant gets three tries at each of a
number of fixed shots that have been available to all the players
for a few years. I suppose it is kind of like a cross between
the figures of figure skating and the high jump.
Stoney
> Be offended away. No insult was intended or rendered to anyone
> exhibiting medical autism; the word "autism" has meaning apart from
> the medical definition. You might try consulting a dictionary
occasionally.
Your intended meaning clearly was not complimentary. Period. But, on the
off chance I might be wrong I did consult a dictionary. Here is what I
found:
1 : absorption in self-centered subjective mental activity (as daydreams,
fantasies, delusions, and hallucinations) usually accompanied by marked
withdrawal from reality
2 : a mental disorder originating in infancy that is characterized by
self-absorption, inability to interact socially, repetitive behavior, and
language dysfunction (as echolalia)
Clearly both definitions would be considered a medical diagnoses with only
treatment modality the essential difference
>People like you who are so eager to impose your
> politically-correct agenda on the English language ought to hang
> socially around medical professionals a bit more to hear really
> biting, politically-incorrect humor. The people who deal with mental
> and physical afflictions on a daily basis aren't nearly so sensitive
> in talking about it.
People like me? You don't know a thing about me other than what is public
knowledge on the Net.
I, on the other hand, know all I need to know about you. You stuck your
foot in your mouth while your head was firmly entrenched further south. You
are now trying to justify an offensive comment rather than belly up like a
man and admit you could have phrased it better.
As far as 'hanging out with medical professionals' I was a corpsman in the
Navy until I switched rates, I am a Certified Emergency Medical Technician
(should still be on the Federal Registry), my godson is a surgeon and his
wife is a gynocologist, two close personal acquiantences are Nurse
Practicioners and my doctor and I are on a first name basis and see each
other socially. None of them make derogatory comments about persons with
mental or physical handicaps. If, in your social circle they do I am happy
none of them invite me over for drinks. And, as far as being sensitive
about talking about physical and mental afflictions, I am not. I have
talked about it and dealt with it on an daily basis for the last 27 years.
I'm not a crusader but I do call 'em like I see 'em and I see you are out of
time.
> -- Larry (whose wife has a PDD-Autistic Disorder older sister for whom
> we are legal guardians)
Stoney
P.S. Decide who you are - Larry Larson or pltrgyst. I don't care which.
I've only got one nerve left and two can't fit on it.
Tom Rossman
Thank you for your support. Actually, "all" of the shots in our 40
shot program qualify for "artistic pool", since we are demonstrating
the meaning of "artistic" exactly in each of our 8 disciplines.
Trick and/or Fancy is our 1st discipline, so the other 7 disciplines
(35 shots/challenges) fit into their special catagories also. Each
discipline, including Trick and/or Fancy Shots, is quite "artistic",
and our fans concur.
What we are dealing with here is simply an understanding of the
definition of a word -- "artistic". Our group accepts its meaning,
and believes each discipline shot is "artistic"...coupled with
different degrees of skill. We review the shots/challenges each year
and continue to "tune" the DOD's and shot selections.
Keep in mind we also have "artistic pool" for several thousand junior
and amateur players with the BCA, VNEA, APA, etc. For over 10 years
"artistic pool" has established its credible place in the billiard
industry by skills ranging from "very easy" to very difficult. All
fit the "artistic pool" definition, our "crusade" goals, and player
emotions. And, what we offer is accepted by the media and sponsor
attachments. Once again, I welcome and encourage anyone out there to
try our shots and see show "easy" they really are. You must
experience the moment yourself in our competitive venues to find our
how any "easy" shot can be "difficult. But, the common denominator
is that they continue to be "artistic".
By the way, I love "artistic billiards - carom" also, which I have
studied, shot, and learned much from. Now, for the "kicker", we also
have "artistic snooker", "artistic pyramid", "artistic wheelchair",
and "artistic entertainment" in various stages of our long range
planning. In each, including, "artistic carom", our meaning for
"artistic" would be very appropriate. Please reread it again, my
friend.
Take care, Tom..."Dr. Cue"
Steve Ellis
of the term "autism pool" may have been somewhat inappropriate. I really didn't get the feeling that
he meant to offend anybody by it. I read it as a reference to the anti-social aspect of autism, that
the nature of trick shot exhibitions (artistic pool if you will) is somewhat removed from the normal
interaction and byplay of a normal pool/billiards competition. Actually since it is presenting a
show to the public, it is probably very un-autistic, but that's beside the point. He may indeed have
been using it in a purposfully derogatory manner, but I didn't read it that way.
You 2 have gone down another street of insulting each other, but I don't think the original comment
was that bad.
Tom Rossman
Hi Don,
Actually, jump shots do not damage a cloth, unless someone "scoops"
under the ball with a tip that is not maintained. A jump shot done
properly will not damage the cloth.
The "masse" shots are quite another story, my friend. Yes, this type
of shot will ruin many a cloth. That is why I am always very careful
to tell people to not do them on your own table, unless you use a
small cloth to masse off of, similar to what some use in breaking. In
our competitions we don't use it, but, then again, we are in the heat
of our competition, and it is expected from the sponsors, cloth
suppliers, and fans that "damage" might occur.
I will tell you that if a "masse" is done correctly, there will be no
harm done either. You may see some "burn" marks, but these can be
gently doctored to help the appearance of them. So, if you are
planning to join our competitions someday, I would recommend you do
jump and masse, and use the cloth I suggest or buy another cloth, so
you can make an annual replacement of it.
My table at home looks like mincemeat, not so much from incorrect
"masse" technique, but from the "constancy" of it. I might hit 100
masses a day for several days in preparation for an event. Then,
again I might not practice them so much, which was the case in our
world event in Kiev in June, 2003. I did not shoot any of the
vertical masse shots in practice, and go figure -- I made every one of
them in the competition, which just happened to be a record since we
started the pro events in 2000. What a blessing. God is Good!!
Take care, Tom...Dr. Cue
Tom Rossman
Hi Jim,
The "master" book I suggest is for our 2005 tour season, starting
January 1, 2005. It will take us from now until September of 2004 to
complete it. It is a gigantic undertaking to put together this book.
This concept is a new direction we are taking with our
shots/challenges. The 8 disciplines will remain, but we will have
approximately 12 - 15 shots in each. Then, for an event we will do a
random selection of 48 (6 X 8 disciplines), which would be 2 from the
DOD's 5,6,7...2 from the DOD's 8,9...and 2 from the DOD's 10,11.
On August 15, 2003, or shortly thereafter, our 2003 Program will be
available by mail order for $15 or on site event purchase for $10. It
contains our 40 shots/challenges we are using for our 2003/2004 tour
season, plus it will be used for the ESPN event this year on the
"book" shots only. 4 shots on ESPN come from our book and 4 shots are
elective...created by the minds of many a great player of "artistic
pool".
You will also be able to download online the shots only (not the
whole program book) sometime after August 15th. For a nice spiral
bound, clear cover, complete program book with the shots/challenges,
history, score sheets, records, and much more, the hardcopy version
will be available. Please check with me after August 15th for order
info, or visit our www.artisticpool.org website, which should be
online around that time.
Take care, Tom...Dr. Cue
WilleeCue
every endeavor.
Would you call the Harlem Globe Trotters "artistic"?
I like to see you perform and enjoy the skill and humor you present.
You are indeed a very talented and skilled entertainer.
Hope to see you do your thing again soon.
William Lee < .... thinks there is a lot of "artisticness" in a good bar
fight.
WilleeCue
Deno J. Andrews
score, as you fight in golf. Sure, in golf, there are other competitors,
but the object is he who fought himself and the course best will have the
lower score, and will win. In chess, you look your opponent face-to-face.
In golf, it is possible that someone who has already finished the tournament
(not in first place when finishing), before the last twelve (or however
many) , could end up winning.
Deno J. Andrews
"pltrgyst" <pltr...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:3uvcivcj8143i2lpt...@4ax.com...
pltrgyst
wrote:
>Your intended meaning clearly was not complimentary. Period.
It was not intended to be complimentary to the game being discussed,
but made no reference whatever to anyone with the condition. It was
simply a word play. And if I had known it would kick up such a storm,
I'd have still said it.
>>People like you who are so eager to impose your
>> politically-correct agenda on the English language....
>
>People like me? You don't know a thing about me other than what is public
>knowledge on the Net.
All I need to know is what I read in your post, and that is all I
referred to. Jeez, no wonder there are so many posts in this NG about
a lack of reading comprehension.
>I, on the other hand, know all I need to know about you. You stuck your
>foot in your mouth while your head was firmly entrenched further south. You
>are now trying to justify an offensive comment rather than belly up like a
>man and admit you could have phrased it better.
No, sorry -- you're wrong. "I meant what I said, and I said what I
meant. An elephant faithful one hundred per cent." I could have called
it a cancer on the body of billiards or a pox on the body of pool, but
they didn't have the right resonance. If you think phrases like that
demean those who have the diseases, you're probably in the crowd who
think the name Washington Redskins demeans native Americans (pc term
used just for you).
>Stoney
>
>P.S. Decide who you are - Larry Larson or pltrgyst. I don't care which.
>I've only got one nerve left and two can't fit on it.
Both. Two accounts: one from home, and one from work. The perils of
DSL and restrictions on third-party access to smtp/news servers.
Both accounts can share the nerve. You seem to have plenty of room on
it.
-- Larry
Deno J. Andrews
> shot program qualify for "artistic pool",
Well, ok, based on your loose definition of artistic, they all can. By the
same token, an argument can me made the getting out of bed in the morning
can be artistic. That is not to say that what you are doing ins't artistic,
because I believe most of it to be artistic and requiring a great level of
skill. However, you surely must admit that some of the shots in the program
don't require much "skill" at all.
> Each
> discipline, including Trick and/or Fancy Shots, is quite "artistic",
> and our fans concur.
If your fans were carom players, I think the shots would get better. That
is not to say that most aren't great shots...I am speaking only of the shots
that are on the low end of the skill curve.
> What we are dealing with here is simply an understanding of the
> definition of a word -- "artistic". Our group accepts its meaning,
> and believes each discipline shot is "artistic"...coupled with
> different degrees of skill. We review the shots/challenges each year
> and continue to "tune" the DOD's and shot selections.
And that is well within your right to do so...I predict, as I already have,
that in five years, most of the low-skill shots in your program will be
gone. You probably agree if you think about it.
> Once again, I welcome and encourage anyone out there to
> try our shots and see show "easy" they really are. You must
> experience the moment yourself in our competitive venues to find our
> how any "easy" shot can be "difficult.
Thank you for the invite. As someone who has learned the artistic billiard
program from the World Champion, and who can make nearly all those shots in
the program with some regularity...I am well aware of the difficulty of one
shot over another. I have a great deal of respect for those who can also
make artistic shots, either in billiards, pool, or whatever. The way I see
it is that the easy shots (and there are many I have seen you guys make and
miss on ESPN) should be cut from the program. Granted, if the audience
doesn't know the difference, why change...
By the way, I love "artistic billiards - carom" also, which I have
> studied, shot, and learned much from. Now, for the "kicker", we also
> have "artistic snooker", "artistic pyramid", "artistic wheelchair",
> and "artistic entertainment" in various stages of our long range
> planning. In each, including, "artistic carom", our meaning for
> "artistic" would be very appropriate. Please reread it again, my
> friend.
I am really glad to hear of your long term plans. And I am really behind
your efforts and even tune into the tournaments on ESPN (and I miss all
other pool related coverage). Being an artist myself (well, a wannabe
artist), I consider artists to be those who not only have the vision, but
who also posses the skills that most in society do not posses in order to
create that which cannot be duplicated easily. Your program is quickly
getting to that level, and I respect that it is going there. My only
comment is that there were times when I was disappointed that such simple
shots could actually find a place on TV. But you are right that in the big
picture, the fans don't know any better, so there is little reason to take
those shots from them.
Good luck, and let me know when you will be in Chicago next...
Deno
Stoney
> I should stay out of this, but I can't. Although I agree with you that in
the original post the use
> of the term "autism pool" may have been somewhat inappropriate. I really
didn't get the feeling that
> he meant to offend anybody by it.
I don't think he meant to offend anyone other than artistic pool players and
aficionado's, expressing his own negative opinions about artistic pool. In
fact, it was a clever turn of phrase however carelessly it was used. The
offense to others is in the useage. Try going to that part of your town
that has the largest concentration of 'black' people. Go to the most
popular bar late in the evening wearing a three piece Brooks Brothers
carrying your fanciest case and cue.and ask "Any of you niggers wanna play
some pool?". My guess is that you will get more than a game of pool. Why,
do you suppose, is that? After all, I hear 'black' people use the term as
just about every part of speech there is. The offense is in the useage
whether or not you meant anything by it.
> I read it as a reference to the anti-social aspect of autism, that
> the nature of trick shot exhibitions (artistic pool if you will) is
somewhat removed from the normal
> interaction and byplay of a normal pool/billiards competition. Actually
since it is presenting a
> show to the public, it is probably very un-autistic, but that's beside the
point. He may indeed have
> been using it in a purposfully derogatory manner, but I didn't read it
that way.
> You 2 have gone down another street of insulting each other, but I don't
think the original comment
> was that bad.
Thanks for your comments. I'm sure your assesment of the circumstance is
accurate. It was a dead end street to begin with and the time limit on this
issue is up.
Regards,
Stoney
Ken Bour
Many years ago, before it became fashionable, I called you and asked for
your recommendation on a "jump cue." You recommended me to Brad Holtz and
the "Happy Hopper." I bought one, began jumping almost immediately, and
have continued to use my Hopper with excellent success. Back then, I was
the first player in our local pool hall to sport a "jump cue." Now, it is
quite common to see them pulled out when players need to escape a good
safety. Recently, I bought a 2nd jump cue, the "Bunjee Jumper" from a
friend. While a pretty good product, it doesn't hold a candle to the Hopper
in terms of jumping ease and accuracy. So, if YOU have now switched to
another jumper, may I PLEASE have your recommendation as to what this cue is
and where I can procure one. You didn't steer me wrong the 1st time. If
you would prefer not to advertise, please write to me privately at
ken....@verizon.net.
As to the discussion and merits of "artistic pool," I cannot find any issue
at all with the use of that term and the skill/artistry that you and your
colleagues display. Artistic pool appeals to me and, it would seem, a
sizeable group of non-pool players who are fascinated by the shot-making,
skill, and elegance of the shots. I can tell it's popular because the
competitions are replayed almost continuously on ESPN and ESPN2. Anyone who
cannot see the artistry in the creation of these shots (and performance)
should be ignored. You guys are fantastic ambassadors of the sport and will
doubtless attract many new players and interested spectators to
pool/billiards.
Glad to see you posting in this forum.
Ken Bour
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
> There is a new "kid" on the block called "artistic pool". For years,
> "trick shots" were considered "setup shots", and/or some shots that
> involved some special "trick" (by in many cases) to impress
sam
remember, YOU are the one that steered ME in that direction. I have never
been disappointed. Is he still in business? Why would you consider any
other jumper when Happy can do it all? Just Wanderoning. :o) Sincerely,
Sam
"Ken Bour" <ken....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:23HWa.4252$iZ4....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Ken Bour
I bought the Bunjee Jumper from a friend for $50 because he wanted to sell
it and I thought I might keep one at home and one in my case for
convenience. Problem is: on my new Granito Basalt, I cannot get the QB
airborne with the Bunjee (unless I really wallop the ball); whereas, it's
much easier with the HH. Pretty much the same story at the pool hall; but,
with worn Simonis, I can at least get out of most safety jams with the BJ.
I have decided to stick with the HH and the Bunjee is just sitting idle. I
really should sell it. I spray painted the butt gloss black and it looks
great.
Why would I want a new jump cue if the HH is satisfactory? Pool is a hobby
for me and I'm an amateur enthusiast. I'm always on the lookout for new and
better products. So, if Dr. Cue has a new jumper recommendation, I would be
interested in trying it. I don't need a new jump cue really; but, in my
case, very little of what I purchase in pool is related to "NEED." I
recently purchased 1/2 dozen experimental low squirt shafts (and use every
day) and I already owned that many Predators. I have 1/2 dozen high-end
custom cues that I have acquired over the years and I can only play with one
at a time. I bought a new custom 3x6 Justis case when I already had a
Whitten. You get the picture. My goals in this sport are simple:
consistent improvement and personal enjoyment. I frequently struggle and
fall short in my quest; however, when I stop relishing the process, I'll
take up something else... YMMV.
Good to see you back in action on RSB,
Ken
"sam" <s...@lasercom.net> wrote in message
news:bgffs...@enews4.newsguy.com...
sam
"Ken Bour" <ken....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_ZOWa.7613$iZ4....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Tom Rossman
Dear Ken,
Thank you for your RSB entry. In sense I still use a Happy Hopper
with its "awesome" jumping attributes. A few years back I found it
difficult for others to buy one though the source of the cue, so I
started to talk to Jumpin James Peterson, who was making cues, but I
didn't like his jump cue at that time. So, I asked him to experiment
with his design and technology in his cue making expertise with this
"jump" issue. He made over a half dozen samples for me, and finally,
the "jump daddy" came into production. It jumps identical to the HH,
but now, I can give others a recommendation for someone that can
supply it, and service it properly. Therefore, there is no need to
change from what you have with the HH. But, since it is not available
anymore, I recommend the "jump daddy" as an identical twin, except for
Jumpin James color codes, wood selections, and tip. I don't know the
specifics of the "jump daddy" production, but I do know it jumps
super, just like the HH. I still have the HH, but can't seem to get a
replacement tip, so if anyone out there has a problem ever with that,
contact me, and I will give you Jumpin James contact info for his tip
replacement creation, which will serve the same purpose.
I also want to thank you, Ken, for your kind words and support of
"artistic pool". Our "crusade" continues with many positive and
upbeat people and sponsors on our side, plus many special people just
like you. May God bless you and yours along the way.
Your friend, Tom "Dr. Cue" Rossman
Jimbo Ct
&
>contact me, and I will give you Jumpin James contact info
Where is he out of and does he have a web-site??
Jim <-----Give the info
Pat Hall
PatH who has used one but doesn't own one
Red
First of all, let me encourage you on your mission to promote the game
of pool.
I've read the posts here and there's one thing that escape me. I seem
to fail to see the art in a competition where the shots are
pre-selected and where the players' creativity has been removed. To
me, pool can be very artistic, and it is when one player create
something or render it with style and quality (read entertaining
permformance here).
Here's how I see it. Yes, the pre-selected shot were once art, but
when all there is to do is recreate someone else's art, I don't think
it's art anymore. Your suggested format appears to me to be more a
skills competition than an artistic one. Let me ask you a question,
can someone could perform your selected shots wihout ever creating a
shot of his own ? Wihout the creativity, how can there be art ?
As for the ESPN challenge format, it remains what it is, a challenge
based on points, the proof is you won you championship against Mike
Massey with a shot that required practicaly no skill, absolutely no
creativity, only to secure that last point that garanteed the title.
Never the less the previous points were well earned and I admire you
for that. But I hope you get my point. And I will admit that that
specific format, at least, allowed for some creativity. Beacuse if
you could come with a shot that you created specificaly for this
match, you had the better chance of scoring posts against your
opponents.
I believe that there is such a thing as Artistic Pool. But I can only
see it render in on fashion. In a judged competition where
Performance, Creativity and Skills would be tested. Skills, because
however you twist this thing, the goal is to make the shots and make
them tough. Creativity, if it's an art, it should be creative. And
performance, they way you deliver the shots, the interaction with the
crowd, the skills you demonstrate while entertaining are definetely
arts !!!
I remember seeing the Snooker TrickShot Championship where the crowd
was deciding by applause. Tho, I don't believe this is the way to go,
I could easily see a Artistic Championship being decided by judges
based on a point system that mesure the quality I mentioned above. We
see this in discipline well established like, figure skating,
plateform diving, synchronised swimming, etc.
Remaining your greatest fan,
Red
Patrick Johnson
> ... fail to see the art in a competition where the shots are
> pre-selected and where the players' creativity has been removed.
It's not the way any of us would define "artistic" for general use, but
this is a special use intended only to differentiate between these shots
and those you might actually try in a game of pool. Maybe "fancy" shots
would be more accurate, but who's counting?
> performance, they way you deliver the shots, the interaction with the
> crowd, the skills you demonstrate while entertaining are definetely
> arts !!!
Maybe, but I'm not interested in a competition about that. I want to
know who executes the shots best.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Jim Eales
faulting the man for playing smart? That seems not only harsh, but a little
misguided to me.
Jim Eales <- Thinks Dr. Cue may have liked that shot best in one way.
"Red" <mrre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cdcd395c.03080...@posting.google.com...
>
> As for the ESPN challenge format, it remains what it is, a challenge
> based on points, the proof is you won you championship against Mike
> Massey with a shot that required practicaly no skill, absolutely no
> creativity, only to secure that last point that garanteed the title.
> Never the less the previous points were well earned and I admire you
> for that. But I hope you get my point. And I will admit that that
> specific format, at least, allowed for some creativity. Beacuse if
> you could come with a shot that you created specificaly for this
> match, you had the better chance of scoring posts against your
> opponents.
>
>
Jim Wyant
like in diving. Each shot would have a degree of difficulty between 1 and 4
(current members of the association would submit their shots, and all
members would submit their ratings, take the average and assign it).
Then, add a couple opportunities for kickers. Say, make it on the first try
you get a 1.0 multiplier. Make it on the second and you get a .85
multiplier.
Perhaps add a kicker for qualifier during some shots. For example, when
doing something that requires 3 rails before putting in a hanger, have a .1
or .25 kicker for declaring and making it without coming off the 4th rail.
On masse shots back down the rail to get a hanger, add a kicker for doing
the masse without the cue ball touching the rail.
Add a risk factor to shots with kickers. For example, say you're going to
go 3 rails and are going for the .25 kicker, but you catch the 4th rail
first on the first try. You can either take the shot with the 1.0 first
shot kicker, or you can take the second shot (first one is washed out) and
try to do it with 3 rails to get the .25 kicker but having to take the .85
multiplier for making (ahhh, attempting to make) it on the second try. This
could still allow you to get 1.10 for your multiplier.
Perhaps an automatic kicker for the challenger. If I pick a shot and make
it, the player coming to the table gets a .10 kicker automatically.....now
it becomes much more important to focus on making the challenge
shots.....and to insure the shooter goes for shots that he feels reasonably
confident the opponent can't make.
Also, mix up the artistic and the skill shots rather than 8 and 4.
A format like this keeps the race tight till this end, adds excitement and
keeps players gambling on how tough a shot they're willing to attempt. As
opposed to some of these where after 6-8 innings of skill shots the match is
essentially over because what is left is set up shots.
Not a critique, Dr. Cue, just some ramblings from the viewer's perspective.
Of course we also have to factor in how much stress you guys can take in one
of these matches. ;)
--Jim
On 8/5/03 12:37 PM, in article
cdcd395c.03080...@posting.google.com, "Red" <mrre...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Jim Wyant
safe on the next to last ball because you were playing for the win, not just
to make the fans ooohhh and aaahhh.
--Jim
On 8/5/03 2:25 PM, in article bgost3$l9s$1...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu, "Jim Eales"
Tom Rossman
Dear Red,
I appreciate your input and opinion on what "artistic pool" is to
you. When we started in 2000 with our "art" form, we wanted a
foundational definition for what we do in our competitions. So, we
studied the meaning of "art" and found out that most people think of
"art" as something being creative as you mention. That is "art" for
art's sake, as MacMillian so defines it. But, if a person studies the
world "art" more, he or she will find that "art" is a special skill,
or "knack", such as used in the "art" of saying things well, whether
something original or something etched in history.
Bingo, we had found our definition in the latter meaning. You may
reference other threads in this topic to read our definition, and you
will find that is exactly what we profess, the "skills" or "knacks"
contained in our competitions called "artistic pool", with the word
"artistic" referencing this type of "art", as an umbrella word over 8
disciplines.
By my "definition" response I have addressed the "creativity" point
you mention lacking in my shot...with the rack, but, to make a short
story longer (humor), never forget that the first person to create
that shot probably thought it was very creative. And, imagine those
that are disabled or unable to play our beautiful game for whatever
reason, or someone viewing this shot for the first time, and being in
"awe" of its beauty/"art". In fact, ESPN thought it so unique and
"aesthetically pleasing"/"artistic", that they used it for the closing
scene. It looked like a whale forcing its way into the pocket. Now,
that is creative!! What a great shot!!
Additionally, one must study the word "skill" because you have
brought up a good point about my last shot not being skillful. That
again, is in the eyes of the beholder. For instance, assume you are
shooting a ball on the edge of a pocket, or what Robert Byrne calls
"duck soup". The chances of missing that shot for a professional are
probably 1000:1, but you still must use the skill of approach, focus,
alignment, and stroke to accomplish the task. Most players find out
that the "hardest" shot in pool, or even "artistic pool" is the
"easiest" shot. Careless moves and "take it for granted" actions
have cost many a world champion a match. You might have recalled when
Hale Irwin missed a 2" putt one time for the championship in a major
golf event. He settled for second. MacMillian goes on to state that
"skill" is "competence resulting from knowledge". We all have looked
"incompetent" at times wielding a cue with "careless" skill movements.
I don't know of many players that would settle for second after
working their way to that lead position against Mike. The skill was
in the "competence" of knowledge to finish the race. In fact, Mike
offered that advice before the match, of what happened to him in a
prior ESPN event. He also skillfully shot an "easy" shot to win.
His revelation to me certainly helped in my strategic "chess move".
By the way, if you remember that shot, I was ready to shoot, but at
the last minute I checked the rack to see if the ball would go through
the hole. Without that knowledge also of how that particular shot
could miss, you would have seen my "skillful" approach become quite
embarrassing. As it was, the shot was made, the majority of people
seeing it have complimented the strategic move made, and ESPN gave it
credibility for its "artistic" beauty.
Once again, this is simply a "definition" issue. The professional
"artistic poolplayers" internationally have defined it as I have
explained, and we are finding out it is a secret formula to success.
Enjoy the show/sport, my friend.
"Artistically Speaking"... Tom "Dr. Cue" Rossman
Tom Rossman
To Jim and Jim,
Thanks for your input, gentlemen! By the way, I really do like
that rack shot. It brings a nice response from audiences all over the
world. I have a belief about this great game -- It is OK to have
"fun" at it!! And, it keeps the heart very young!
Thanks for your support! "Dr. Cue"
Tom Rossman
Great ideas, Jim! We do have sanctioned "artistic pool" events with
degrees of difficulty, but the ESPN event does not use that right now.
Their format is a "horse" format and our world tour uses a "golf
course" format, with the DOD factors you reference, but in a slightly
different calculation process.
Thanks, again! "Dr. Cue"
Arnold, R. Hugh"LCS"
meeting you in athens ohio, at ohio university, you put on a demonstration,
and did audience challenge! you are a class act all the way around
Hugh Arnold"LCS"
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03080...@posting.google.com...
Red
> Actually, Tom Rossman & Mike Massey played in the semifinals. You are
> faulting the man for playing smart? That seems not only harsh, but a little
> misguided to me.
>
> Jim Eales <- Thinks Dr. Cue may have liked that shot best in one way.
My mistake, but the point remain. On that shot there was nothing
artistic, it was probably the simplest shot that could have been done
after a straight in.
And I wasn't faulting him. If you read carefully, I gave him credit
for his performance, but I was faulting the system that allowed such a
shot. In a judged format, that last one wouldn't have brought in many
points.
Red
Red
> Maybe, but I'm not interested in a competition about that. I want to
> know who executes the shots best.
>
> Pat Johnson
> Chicago
I would rather watch who execute the best shots. That would allow us
to see more shots and I think it would push the players to developpe
more new shots. If the points are distributed where originality gets
more points, I would imagine that the effort to come up with something
new would increase, hence promoting the "artistic" side of it.
Red
Red
> But, if a person studies the
> world "art" more, he or she will find that "art" is a special skill,
> or "knack", such as used in the "art" of saying things well, whether
> something original or something etched in history.
I now understand better why you selected "Artistic" to define your
sport.
> By my "definition" response I have addressed the "creativity" point
> you mention lacking in my shot...with the rack, but, to make a short
> story longer (humor), never forget that the first person to create
> that shot probably thought it was very creative.
Agreed, but that person was the artist, not the persone reproducing
it. I have never regarded a person who copies someone else's creation
as an artiste, simply a reproducer. Now don't be offended by this
statement, it is more in relation with a conventional definition of
art.
>In fact, ESPN thought it so unique and
> "aesthetically pleasing"/"artistic", that they used it for the closing
> scene. It looked like a whale forcing its way into the pocket. Now,
> that is creative!! What a great shot!!
OK, it seems you might be stretching here, are you sure this shot made
the cut for these specific reasons ?
> I don't know of many players that would settle for second after
> working their way to that lead position against Mike. The skill was
> in the "competence" of knowledge to finish the race.
I think you were right to do so, you were simply playing the format,
wich is what I blamed, not you, not the shot !
> By the way, if you remember that shot, I was ready to shoot, but at
> the last minute I checked the rack to see if the ball would go through
> the hole. Without that knowledge also of how that particular shot
> could miss, you would have seen my "skillful" approach become quite
> embarrassing.
Agreed, I also remember that you started to set up for a more risky
shot and then reverted to the rack shot, why ? Was it because it was
easier ? Did it required less skills ? You played the percentage on
that one, and rightfully so, but the show somewhat suffered from it,
to me anyway.
> As it was, the shot was made, the majority of people
> seeing it have complimented the strategic move made, and ESPN gave it
> credibility for its "artistic" beauty.
Let me compliment you as well on your decision, we all know that when
you see the opportunity to beat Mike Massey, you got to go for the
win. But even when I try hard I fail to see the artistic beauty of
that shot, but that is probably because you have elevated our
expectation so high. If I compare a stick man drawing to La Jocombe,
even if they are both art, I lose sight of the artistic beauty of the
stick man !
> Once again, this is simply a "definition" issue. The professional
> "artistic poolplayers" internationally have defined it as I have
> explained, and we are finding out it is a secret formula to success.
> Enjoy the show/sport, my friend.
I totaly agree, we are playing semantic here, that is why I would
appreciate if you could comment on the format itself. Don't you think
a format to promote the creation of new shots would be interesting ?
Red, who's never been an artist except with stick men !!! ;-)
Tom Rossman
> Tom ... aren't you getting a bit overboard tacking the word "artistic" before
> every endeavor.
> Would you call the Harlem Globe Trotters "artistic"?
> I like to see you perform and enjoy the skill and humor you present.
> You are indeed a very talented and skilled entertainer.
> Hope to see you do your thing again soon.
>
> William Lee < .... thinks there is a lot of "artisticness" in a good bar
> fight.
> WilleeCue
was because of their persistence to promote with "key" words day after
day. That is just good business practice, so no, I don't believe we
are using "artistic" too much. And yes, the Harlem Globetrotters are
certainly "artistic" in what they do. That has been proven for
decades in their entertainment presentations, and the millions of fans
they have.
"Artistically yours, "Dr. Cue"
Tom Rossman
> "Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
> news:b5da4bae.03072...@posting.google.com...
> > Thank you for your support. Actually, "all" of the shots in our 40
> > shot program qualify for "artistic pool",
>
> Well, ok, based on your loose definition of artistic, they all can. By the
> same token, an argument can me made the getting out of bed in the morning
> can be artistic. That is not to say that what you are doing ins't artistic,
> because I believe most of it to be artistic and requiring a great level of
> skill. However, you surely must admit that some of the shots in the program
> don't require much "skill" at all.
I think Webster and MacMillian might counter your claim that
"artistic" the way we use it portrays a "loose" definition. And, I do
believe that, someone that gets out of bed in the morning may be
"artistic" in that movement, especially if they are 100 years old and
consider that act a special blessing. We have Degrees of Difficulty
to qualify the "skill" levels". This is used to help others
understand how "easy" and/or how "difficult" a particular shot is.
One point to note on this however, even the easiest shots can be
missed, so the "competence of knowledge" on the execution level in
many cases makes the "skill" harder on any given day. For someone as
skilled as you in "artistic" carom, our "easy" shots might appear to
lack a requirement of much skill. But, for someone coming into our
competition for the first time, even the "easy" shots require
significant challenge. My invite still goes out to anyone wanting to
take the "artistic pool" challenge in one of our events.
Tom
>
> > Each
> > discipline, including Trick and/or Fancy Shots, is quite "artistic",
> > and our fans concur.
>
> If your fans were carom players, I think the shots would get better. That
> is not to say that most aren't great shots...I am speaking only of the shots
> that are on the low end of the skill curve.
>
> > What we are dealing with here is simply an understanding of the
> > definition of a word -- "artistic". Our group accepts its meaning,
> > and believes each discipline shot is "artistic"...coupled with
> > different degrees of skill. We review the shots/challenges each year
> > and continue to "tune" the DOD's and shot selections.
>
> And that is well within your right to do so...I predict, as I already have,
> that in five years, most of the low-skill shots in your program will be
> gone. You probably agree if you think about it.
I have thought about it, and I hope the lesser degrees of difficulty
never disappear for the sake of the "grass roots" "wannabees" and
those that appreciate that special joy of someone applauding for a
successful make of one of these shots. I have just seen too many
players happy when they finish one of our events because they were
able to make a few of our shots. To eliminate those shots, you
eliminate a portion of our player base. There are still enought
"tough" shots to go around. The success to what we do is a proper
"mix" of shots from top to bottom.
Tom
>
> > Once again, I welcome and encourage anyone out there to
> > try our shots and see show "easy" they really are. You must
> > experience the moment yourself in our competitive venues to find our
> > how any "easy" shot can be "difficult.
>
> Thank you for the invite. As someone who has learned the artistic billiard
> program from the World Champion, and who can make nearly all those shots in
> the program with some regularity...I am well aware of the difficulty of one
> shot over another. I have a great deal of respect for those who can also
> make artistic shots, either in billiards, pool, or whatever. The way I see
> it is that the easy shots (and there are many I have seen you guys make and
> miss on ESPN) should be cut from the program. Granted, if the audience
> doesn't know the difference, why change...
That's right, Deno...why change if it grows our discipline..
Tom
>
> By the way, I love "artistic billiards - carom" also, which I have
> > studied, shot, and learned much from. Now, for the "kicker", we also
> > have "artistic snooker", "artistic pyramid", "artistic wheelchair",
> > and "artistic entertainment" in various stages of our long range
> > planning. In each, including, "artistic carom", our meaning for
> > "artistic" would be very appropriate. Please reread it again, my
> > friend.
>
> I am really glad to hear of your long term plans. And I am really behind
> your efforts and even tune into the tournaments on ESPN (and I miss all
> other pool related coverage). Being an artist myself (well, a wannabe
> artist), I consider artists to be those who not only have the vision, but
> who also posses the skills that most in society do not posses in order to
> create that which cannot be duplicated easily. Your program is quickly
> getting to that level, and I respect that it is going there. My only
> comment is that there were times when I was disappointed that such simple
> shots could actually find a place on TV. But you are right that in the big
> picture, the fans don't know any better, so there is little reason to take
> those shots from them.
I truly thank you, Deno for your input. It has been very constructive
and positive. We need more people like you to see the "vision".
And, that way, we all benefit.
Take care, Hoping to see you again someday soon, Tom
Tom Rossman
Thank God for that "one, small point" it did bring in, my friend -- in
the scoring system that was in place. I guess if you have a simple
straight in shot in normal pool, then the rules of pool should require
a 4 or 5 cushion kick in, instead of being allowed to shoot a
"hanger". Systems are systems, and they will not please everyone.
Tom
Tom Rossman
> keep up the great work Tom..about 15 years ago, i had the pleasure of
> meeting you in athens ohio, at ohio university, you put on a demonstration,
> and did audience challenge! you are a class act all the way around
>
> Hugh Arnold"LCS"
>
Tom
Tom Rossman
> > But, if a person studies the
> > world "art" more, he or she will find that "art" is a special skill,
> > or "knack", such as used in the "art" of saying things well, whether
> > something original or something etched in history.
>
> I now understand better why you selected "Artistic" to define your
> sport.
>
>
> > By my "definition" response I have addressed the "creativity" point
> > you mention lacking in my shot...with the rack, but, to make a short
> > story longer (humor), never forget that the first person to create
> > that shot probably thought it was very creative.
>
> Agreed, but that person was the artist, not the persone reproducing
> it. I have never regarded a person who copies someone else's creation
> as an artiste, simply a reproducer. Now don't be offended by this
> statement, it is more in relation with a conventional definition of
> art.
>
>
> >In fact, ESPN thought it so unique and
> > "aesthetically pleasing"/"artistic", that they used it for the closing
> > scene. It looked like a whale forcing its way into the pocket. Now,
> > that is creative!! What a great shot!!
>
> OK, it seems you might be stretching here, are you sure this shot made
> the cut for these specific reasons ?
ESPN doesn't use just any type of shot. They use what will sell their
show, so I am sure there were many factors involved in their decision,
including the uniqueness of this particular shot.
Tom
>
>
> > I don't know of many players that would settle for second after
> > working their way to that lead position against Mike. The skill was
> > in the "competence" of knowledge to finish the race.
>
> I think you were right to do so, you were simply playing the format,
> wich is what I blamed, not you, not the shot !
>
> > By the way, if you remember that shot, I was ready to shoot, but at
> > the last minute I checked the rack to see if the ball would go through
> > the hole. Without that knowledge also of how that particular shot
> > could miss, you would have seen my "skillful" approach become quite
> > embarrassing.
>
> Agreed, I also remember that you started to set up for a more risky
> shot and then reverted to the rack shot, why ? Was it because it was
> easier ? Did it required less skills ? You played the percentage on
> that one, and rightfully so, but the show somewhat suffered from it,
> to me anyway.
I reverted back to the shot because I sensed the Holy Spirit
guiding me to do it. What many don't know is that before this event
for weeks, I prayed for 2 things: 1) proper shot selection, and 2)
burning focus. It was simply part of the strategy, which I
experienced through the answer to the #1 point of my prayers.
I understand the ratings were the highest ever for this show, so I
am sure that every shot had an input to fan acceptance. I can only
go by what the majority has told me about enjoying the shots, the
emotion, and the thrill of victory, which was a "victory" of my
heart...a special blessing from above. If you get the chance, please
read The Angel, The Mountain, and The Victory on my website
www.drcuepromotions.com (5th ball home page -- Click Travelogue on top
of that linked page) That is the "story, behind the story" -- of the
ESPN event!
Tom
>
> > As it was, the shot was made, the majority of people
> > seeing it have complimented the strategic move made, and ESPN gave it
> > credibility for its "artistic" beauty.
>
> Let me compliment you as well on your decision, we all know that when
> you see the opportunity to beat Mike Massey, you got to go for the
> win. But even when I try hard I fail to see the artistic beauty of
> that shot, but that is probably because you have elevated our
> expectation so high. If I compare a stick man drawing to La Jocombe,
> even if they are both art, I lose sight of the artistic beauty of the
> stick man !
>
> > Once again, this is simply a "definition" issue. The professional
> > "artistic poolplayers" internationally have defined it as I have
> > explained, and we are finding out it is a secret formula to success.
> > Enjoy the show/sport, my friend.
>
> I totaly agree, we are playing semantic here, that is why I would
> appreciate if you could comment on the format itself. Don't you think
> a format to promote the creation of new shots would be interesting ?
>
> Red, who's never been an artist except with stick men !!! ;-)
OK. here are my comments on the format itself...
The ESPN format is a brainchild of Matt Braun, the promoter and man
who puts up all the money, so it is pretty much etched in stone. He
likes it, it works, and that's about it. He is kind enough to invite
select artists to the event, and we are so thankful for that, as it is
a "stepping stone" in our overall growth. We do have our sanctioned
competitions also, as I have explained in some of the other
threads...with a different format (Please read). In addition, our
long range plans are to have "artistic pool" competitions with judges,
similar to gymnastics...with compulsories and elective presentations.
It is simply another part of the puzzle and long range diversity for
our unique discipline. We must grow and establish a foundation as we
see what is best with each step. So far, the journey is on course,
and the future is looking bright...with variety of formats, etc., but
always remembering the "roots" of our success.
Tom
sam
you are. I post this to you as a loving warning that SOMEONE, (God knows
who) is going to (at some point) jump on your references with negative
response. Please be prepared so as not to be offended or through reaction
to respond in kind. I have enjoyed your posts and hope you will continue to
visit us with updates and additional information. May God bless you and
yours as I know He has. :o) Sincerely, Sam
"Tom Rossman" <dr...@artisticpool.org> wrote in message
news:b5da4bae.03080...@posting.google.com...
Steve.
> Tom, my college degree is a major in Theology. I am as lead by the Lord as
> you are. I post this to you as a loving warning that SOMEONE, (God knows
> who) is going to (at some point) jump on your references with negative
> response. Please be prepared so as not to be offended or through reaction
> to respond in kind. I have enjoyed your posts and hope you will continue to
> visit us with updates and additional information. May God bless you and
> yours as I know He has. :o) Sincerely, Sam
>
Sam (and Tom),
I think that only happens when somebody gets in here and preaches ad
nauseum only using pool and billiards as a superficial (<-spelling?)
facade to find another forum to preach. Tom started posting here to
discuss artistic pool. He has only tangentially mentioned religion in
an abstract manner and then just as a side product of who he is. Under
those circumstances and given his outstanding reputation, I'd be very
surprised if somebody jumped ugly with him.
This is a pool and billiard NG not a religious forum, as long as that
is respected I don't foresee a problem. If it is not respected the
person perpetrating the disrespected could take some abuse. Of course
if he wished to discuss religion he could take it to ASP ... Naw, he
wouldn't want to go there. If it were taken to ASP, given the nature
of the motley crew we have over there, it could be an interesting
though sometimes ugly discussion (brawl?).
Steve. <- Believes it ain't nobody's business but his own what he
believes.
lfigueroa
your problem -- you're going to drive him away (and you know how we feel
about that :-)
Lou Figueroa
"sam" <s...@lasercom.net> wrote in message
news:bgsp0...@enews2.newsguy.com...
sam
would have been all over him. LOL I was trying to gently prepare him for
his up coming crucifixion. :o) Sincerely, Sam
"lfigueroa" <lfig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:7_qYa.88576$3o3.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Snoozy
were trick shots i disdained them as being setup shots of little value
in an actual game. Just for showing off. There being little of
useful value in them.
After watching Mike Massey in Santa Rosa about 5 years ago I gained
appreciation for the 'stroke shots' in his trick shot exhibition. He
displays more ability to draw the cue ball than anyone else I've seen.
Most amazing.
Then the other night my wife and kid watched the 'artistic billiards'
episode on TV with me when they have showed utter boredom at watching
what I would call "real" pool. That is of course matches between
pros.
I enjoyed them too. There was much more skill (stroke shots) employed
now than there was in the past. Previously there was a comment from
someone about how real pool was defined defensively by the leaves.
Well, some of the shots involved making a ball or five and then
leaving the cue ball in a particular spot. That is . . . making
another ball with it. So there is an element of placing the cue ball
somewhere after 'some' of the shots.
I think the real beauty of artistic pool is not how artistic it is . .
. but in its ability to draw people into the sport. They will stop to
watch it for a few moments on TV whereas they will not watch a real
matchup between 2 pros for even 30 seconds.
Snoozy
Patrick Johnson
> After watching Mike Massey in Santa Rosa about 5 years ago I gained
> appreciation for the 'stroke shots' in his trick shot exhibition.
The trick shot exhibitions don't really come close to real "artistic" shots.
For that try to catch a Semih Sayginer (the Turkish master) exhibition on a
carom table. I don't know what Dr. Cue is describing, since I've never seen his
show or the competitions he's promoting, but I don't think anything that can be
called a "trick shot" can really be "artistic" in the highest sense of the term.
If you see it, you'll know it.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
Tom Rossman
Wonderful, Snoozy!! Now, that's probably the most beautiful thing
about "artistic pool". It has a magnetism about it that attracts
masses of people in special ways. Thank you for seeing the ultimate
picture and helping others to understand what our "crusade" is all
about.
Finest regards... Tom "Dr. Cue" Rossman
Tom Rossman
> I figured that about one more christian reference from Tom, and you or Pat
> would have been all over him. LOL I was trying to gently prepare him for
> his up coming crucifixion. :o) Sincerely, Sam
The "witness" I share is meant for all. For your information, Sam, I
have already been "crucified" in Him when He gave His life for us. I
will never be offended in what others think. I will let the Lord take
care of that. The Lord speaks to us in very unique ways sometimes
and encourages us to tell others about Him. Some will listen and
some will not, but all will have an opportunity to know. If I ever
leave this RSB, it is because I feel He is leading me somewhere else.
May each of you experience the "victory".
God bless you, all... Tom
Tom Rossman
The beauty of a forum such as this is that you can review meanings,
statements, and concepts expressed before in infinite detail. Semi
Sayginer is truly a master of "artistic" carom. The "highest" sense
of the term "artistic" is once again in the eyes of the beholder.
And, the beholders of "artistic pool" have their own opinion on it.
We recognize the "artistic" nature of what Semi does, and we also
understand the "artistic" nature of what we do. The comparison of
apples and oranges can't really be made due to some people like apples
and some people like oranges. Both are right in their own eyes, and
both are "not so right" by the others standards, but all are
nourished. That is why we share a common bond of billiards and the
"crusade" to promote the "art" of it all, regardless of how you define
it. And, just to defend "trick shot" one more time, it is truly
"artistic" by our standards, which are quickly being accepted by
thousands of fans worldwide.
Isn't it interesting that our RSB topic is "trick shots are more than
trick shots"!!!
Tom
sam
compliment. ((don't know how long he's been posting)).)
lfigueroa
> If I ever leave this RSB, it is because I feel He is leading me somewhere
> else.
You're going with Keith?
Lou Figueroa