The truth about David Sapolis (Blackjack)
Slammer1466
see a contributor that now goes by the name of "Blackjack". I have had past
dealings with this man (as far back as 1975). Mr. Sappolis was well known in
South Florida pool circles for being a con artist, an opportunist, a liar,
cheat, and vanishing artist. Mr "Blackjack" has used several aliases over the
years, such as John Reed, Mike McIntyre, Oliver Ross, Tommy Fisher, etc. Mr.
Sappolis was infamous for competing in tournaments all over the southeast using
a different name during each tournament. He did this quite successfully for
years. It speaks volumes of his true character.
In the late 1970's, Mr. Sappolis was road partners with a player named Mike
Carella (A former national champion, from Miami). Mike died of suspicious
causes while staying at Mr. Sappolis's apartment. Many players back then as
well as now knew that Mr. Sappolis was extremely jealous of Mike Carella, both
as a player and as a person. Mr "Blackjack" avoids the Mike Carella topic like
the plague for reasons he refuses to ellaborate on. This also speaks volumes
of his true character.
Why do I post such a message? Recently, Mr Sappolis has taken to writing
about pool and puts himself out there as an instructor. He brags about a
sporadic professional career, a career that earned him the title of being the
biggest pain in the ass the pro tour had ever seen. He won't tell you, (but I
will) but he was asked to leave the tour by Don Mackey after an verbal
altercation with Paul Brienza in 1995. His legacy is one of a whining crybaby
who apparantly never got his way no matter how long he pouted. He claims to
use his "professional experience" to help other players in his books and his
articles. During his articles he claims to be a "Master" of the mental game of
pool. My question for "Blackjack" is this, when did you win anything outiside
the lines of deception? Probably never. What, besides a bad attitude, immoral
conduct, and deceit, would you be able to pass along to other players?
Probably nothing. When confronted with these questions, he runs, he hides,
and reappears when the smoke clears. Newsgroups are no different. He recently
was met by a chorus of cold shoulders when he tried to compete at a tournament
in Miami. Old wounds heal slow around here. Almost as slow as the broken jaw
he received at the hands of Claude Bernatchez 10 years ago. Has he told anyone
in here about that? I wouldn't be proud of that either. But, he uses RSB& ASP
to slander Allen Hopkins and Don Mackey about their leadership of the pro tour.
I think Mr. Sappolis should sweep his side of the street before he comments on
the character of others.
His books (the ones he claims to write in the name of charity) should be
avoided. Recently, Mr Sappolis said that he would be writing a book about his
exploits as a road player, concentrating mainly on the time period that he
traveled with Mike Carella. Cashing in on a tragedy is obscene even if it is
done in the name of charity (and I don't believe the charity routine). Instead
of Blackjack, they should call him Blackspot, for that is what he is to this
sport.
Paul in Miami
Bob Johnson
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Colorado
Home of the 1997/1998 World Champion Denver Broncos
Home of the 1996/2001 Stanley Cup Champion Avalanche
bo...@cris.com
"Slammer1466" <slamm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020105131252...@mb-mh.aol.com...
Dick Moecia
suggest that anyone interested in this post read it several times before you
reach a conclusion. Further, I learned a long time ago not to believe
everything I hear. I don't know Dave personally but I enjoy reading what he has
to say and he seems to be of high character. I believe Dave is in law
enforcement. Does "slammer" have an ax to grind? Do you have a last name so
Dave can respond.
>bo...@cris.com
>"Slammer1466" <slamm...@aol.com>
Dick Moecia, fka poolcue
http://ourworld.cs.com/poolhalloffame
Steve Ellis
Blackjack you've got to reply to this (verbally I mean). I don't know
you or Paul from Miami. I've enjoyed your post although I think you
overstate importance of the "mental side" of pool. I'll still read
your posts, but you should respond to this one. Needless to say no
response could adversely effect future book sales.
Smorgass Bored
<very bad things about Blackjack David Sapolis>
(*<~ Thank you Paul. Hey David, the marriage is OFF.......
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Blackjack David Sapolis
to explain each of Paul's comments.
slamm...@aol.com (Slammer1466) wrote:
Paul in Miami wrote:
Mr. Sappolis was well known in
> South Florida pool circles for being a con artist, an opportunist, a liar,
> cheat, and vanishing artist. Mr "Blackjack" has used several aliases over the
> years, such as John Reed, Mike McIntyre, Oliver Ross, Tommy Fisher, etc. Mr.
> Sappolis was infamous for competing in tournaments all over the southeast using
> a different name during each tournament. He did this quite successfully for
> years. It speaks volumes of his true character.
My response:
I've never denied doing this, either in the past or the present. I
don't recall cheating anybody. Did I cheat you? If I did don't take
it personally. It comes with the territory.
Paul in Miami wrote:
> In the late 1970's, Mr. Sappolis was road partners with a player named Mike Carella (A former national champion, from Miami).
My response:
So what?
Paul in Miami Wrote:
Mike died of suspicious
causes while staying at Mr. Sappolis's apartment. Many players back
then as
> well as now knew that Mr. Sappolis was extremely jealous of Mike Carella, both
> as a player and as a person. Mr "Blackjack" avoids the Mike Carella topic like the plague for reasons he refuses to ellaborate on. This also speaks volumes of his true character.
My response:
Get your facts straight. I've never lived in Miami. As far as being
jealous of Mike Carella, I had no reason to be. Mike Carella and I
were very good friends. It is true that I was with Mike Carella
briefly on the night of his death. I do not comment on the issue out
of respect for the Carella family. By the way, Paul, what are you
eluding to here?
>
Paul in Miami wrote:
Why do I post such a message?
My response:
Okay,Paul, why? You ask this question and then ramble on forever
about how you dislike the fact that I write about pool.
Paul in Miami wrote:
He won't tell you, (but I will) but he was asked to leave the tour by
Don Mackey after an verbal altercation with Paul Brienza in 1995. His
legacy is one of a whining crybaby who apparantly never got his way no
matter how long he pouted.
My response:
Why is this yours or anybody else's business?
Paul in Miami wrote:
My question for "Blackjack" is this, when did you win anything
outiside
> the lines of deception? Probably never.
My response:
Plenty of times, just check your wallet.
Paul in Miami wrote:
What, besides a bad attitude, immoral
> conduct, and deceit, would you be able to pass along to other players?
> Probably nothing.
My response:
I believe that I have a lot to teach. If you have a problem with what
I do or say, ignore my posts.
Paul in Miami wrote:
When confronted with these questions, he runs, he hides,
> and reappears when the smoke clears. Newsgroups are no different.
My response:
Well, Paul, I'm here now. The vagueness in your accusations is
humorous.
Paul in Miami wrote:
He recently
> was met by a chorus of cold shoulders when he tried to compete at a tournament
> in Miami. Old wounds heal slow around here. Almost as slow as the broken jaw
> he received at the hands of Claude Bernatchez 10 years ago. Has he told anyone in here about that? I wouldn't be proud of that either.
My response:
The cold shoulders were your doing, Paul. I suspected that when I was
there. Thanks for proving me right. As far as the Bernatchez incident
goes, I've never denied that, nor do I make it a point to tell
everybody the details. Claude got pissed off at me, and the rest is
history. Okay, Paul, I addressed the issue.
Paul in Miami wrote:
But, he uses RSB& ASP to slander Allen Hopkins and Don Mackey about
their leadership of the pro tour.
My response:
It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it.
Paul in Miami wrote:
> I think Mr. Sappolis should sweep his side of the street before he comments on the character of others.
My response:
I think you should follow your own advice.
In closing, Paul in Miami writes:
> His books (the ones he claims to write in the name of charity) should be
> avoided. Recently, Mr Sappolis said that he would be writing a book about his
> exploits as a road player, concentrating mainly on the time period that he
> traveled with Mike Carella. Cashing in on a tragedy is obscene even if it is
> done in the name of charity (and I don't believe the charity routine). Instead of Blackjack, they should call him Blackspot, for that is what he is to this sport.
My response:
The first two books I wrote, (Stroke of Genius & The Growling Point)
raised a combined effort of $5700.00, all of which was donated to The
Juvenile Diabetes Foundation in the memory of my daughter. When I was
a room owner I held three tournaments that raised money for the Jimmy
V Foundation. All of this can be verified. As far as writing another
book about my road adventures, I believe it's my life and if I choose
to write about it there's very little you can do about it.
For others who may be reading this, Paul in Miami is an old fart that
likes to hold grudges. He's been bad mouthing me for over twenty
years, mainly because I broke him when he was backing "one of his
Miami boys". He's doing this in rsponse to an incident that occurred
a few weeks ago in Miami. Reader's Digest version: Paul backed
another loser.
In regards to all of your accusations Paul, the one that makes you
sound like the biggest ass-clown in history is the one where you elude
that I had something to do with Mike Carella's death. What do you hope
to gain by starting these lies? In pool, money is won, and money is
lost. If you can't deal with losing money, you shouldn't shove it in
the pot. Trying to damage my reputation by starting rumors and
attacking my "character" proves to me that you are every bit the sore
loser I figured you for 25+ years ago. Losing stings like a bitch,
doesn't it Paul?
Blackjack David Sapolis (not Sappolis)
Warren Lushia
Blackjack David Sapolis wrote:
> I find it appalling that I have to defend myself, but I'll do my best
> to explain each of Paul's comments.
>
> slamm...@aol.com (Slammer1466) wrote:
>
> Paul in Miami wrote:
> Mr. Sappolis was well known in
> > South Florida pool circles for being a con artist, an opportunist, a liar,
> > cheat, and vanishing artist. Mr "Blackjack" has used several aliases over the
> > years, such as John Reed, Mike McIntyre, Oliver Ross, Tommy Fisher, etc. Mr.
> > Sappolis was infamous for competing in tournaments all over the southeast using
> > a different name during each tournament. He did this quite successfully for
> > years. It speaks volumes of his true character.
>
> My response:
> I've never denied doing this, either in the past or the present.
so what exactly was your purpose of lying by using all those false id's?!!? i recall a few individuals that like to fly big planes into giant buildings using similar tactics. it seems
their comrads also like to do the same thing.
> I
> don't recall cheating anybody.
huh?!?! you just said you use to lie about your identity. where is the freakin honor in that? i don't see a reason to do that other than some version of cheating somebody or because
you pissed someone off with your lies.
> Did I cheat you? If I did don't take
> it personally. It comes with the territory.
great. just freaking great. a lowlife with zero regrets, just what this sport needs.
> Paul in Miami wrote:
>
> He won't tell you, (but I will) but he was asked to leave the tour by
> Don Mackey after an verbal altercation with Paul Brienza in 1995. His
> legacy is one of a whining crybaby who apparantly never got his way no
> matter how long he pouted.
>
> My response:
> Why is this yours or anybody else's business?
as you like to say, "it comes with the territory".
> I Losing stings like a bitch,
> doesn't it Paul?
i ain't paul, but i have lost at pool. i kinda think getting my jaw broken from being an asshole probably hurts worse, but that is just a guess.
i applaud dave for being honest. unfortunately, admitting to being a lowlife, bottom feeding, scum-sucker with no redeeming values, who lies, cheats, steals, with no regret isn't my
idea of a person to admire. if they showed some remorse and advised others against it based on personal experience, they may be worth listening to. maybe somebody will break his jaw
again, and a coupla arms to boot. sad sad sad. oh yeah, why can't this "sport" get ahead?!?!!? i just don't understand?!?! maybe paul isn't much better, i don't know.
warren..<-- lushia, in case your wondering, i ain't got no reason to hide
rick
clearly to every one of Paul's points. And it seems to me that the
VERY bottom line is he got into Paul's pockets and Paul is still
pissed off about it.
Just my observations.
--Rick
mark
here for a year or so, but rarely posts, and to be honest - I've never
remembered noticing either of the two poster's names before on here, the
bottom line to me is this:
The first guy (Paul) claims that blackjack is a lie and a cheat and
insinuates that he is a murderer.
Blackjack responds by saying, no I wasn't a cheat but if I cheated you don't
bitch about it...he also states that he used false names at tournaments.
this in its own is enough for me to think he is a louse, and someone I'd
rather stay away from. The fact that he sidestepped the murder accusations
from something that happened so long ago, doesn't incriminate him but it
sure doesn't vindicate either. In this case, there are only two responses he
could give to the insinuation: I had nothing to do with it and here is my
alibi, or a non-response (cus anything he says...could be used against him).
Since it happened so long ago, and the odds of the deceased family actually
reading this NG are about 1 in 1 trillion, I'd say he should have addressed
the issue. But that's just me - Mr. Insensitive I guess.
"rick" <ric...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3c38618f....@news.mem.bellsouth.net...
Donald Tees
pseudo-name. While I do not, and have not ever used a false name, there
are lots of valid reasons that people might. About 75% of the people in
this newsgroup do it on a regular basis. Insinuating that someone is a
murderer or an airplane hijacker for it for it seems a bit harsh.
I notice that the accuser used a pseudoname for the post. That says a lot
right there.
If 1/4 of the acusations were true, the police would be involved. They are
not. That says a lot as well.
I've made a few accusations of this sort in my day, but the place to make
them is in a court of law, under oath, or directly to a police officer,
where they can be checked out. If you are not willing to do that, you
should keep your mouth shut. Not doing so is likely to put YOU in court,
unless you are willing to make them under a pseudoname yourself, like the
original idiot did. Would you be willing to repeat the below in a court?
Or is it just bullshit?
Donald
"Warren Lushia" <wal...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu> wrote in message
news:3C3825D5...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu...
Donald Tees
news:3PZZ7.359101$5A3.13...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> Interesting that you take that viewpoint. As someone that has been lurking
> here for a year or so, but rarely posts, and to be honest - I've never
> remembered noticing either of the two poster's names before on here, the
> bottom line to me is this:
>
> The first guy (Paul) claims that blackjack is a lie and a cheat and
> insinuates that he is a murderer.
>
> Blackjack responds by saying, no I wasn't a cheat but if I cheated you
don't
> bitch about it...he also states that he used false names at tournaments.
>
> this in its own is enough for me to think he is a louse, and someone I'd
> rather stay away from. The fact that he sidestepped the murder accusations
> from something that happened so long ago, doesn't incriminate him but it
> sure doesn't vindicate either. In this case, there are only two responses
he
> could give to the insinuation: I had nothing to do with it and here is my
> alibi, or a non-response (cus anything he says...could be used against
him).
> Since it happened so long ago, and the odds of the deceased family
actually
> reading this NG are about 1 in 1 trillion, I'd say he should have
addressed
> the issue. But that's just me - Mr. Insensitive I guess.
>
Why would anybody try to defend themselves from a murder charge in here, to
this audience? The charge is so ludicrous as to be stupid. There are no
laws of eveidence in here. Anybody can say anything they want, about
anybody. If there was evidence that the man was a murderer, the POLICE
would have made the charge, not some dumbfuck posting under a false name.
What I see with my own eyes, and know to be true, is that one man posts
politely under his real name, and another posts all sorts of rabid
accusations under a false name. The one posting in the open says what he
has done, and notes that the dumbfuck lost a bunch of money to him over a
twenty years period. The dumbfuck with the accusations sits in the
background, and mentions nothing of the sort.
Which is the worst offence: to accuse a man of murder under a pseudoname,
while obviously lying about the true reason for the accusation, or to play a
game of pool under a pseudoname?
I know who *I''d* treat as an honest man, and who I'd tend to believe.
Donald Tees, Kitchener Ontario, Canada.
Clay
different than many others that come up in life. I don't believe there is
anyone here going to look into the allegations, either way. I don't believe
the is any real way for the group to stop them from posting here either, nor
should they. The moral to the story---keep your eyes and ears open and make
your decisions based on your perceptions.
Clay
"mark" <ma...@NOSPAMhome.com> wrote in message
news:3PZZ7.359101$5A3.13...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
Donald Tees
news:%s_Z7.19657$Cd6.3...@typhoon1.southeast.rr.com...
> I am fairly new to this group but not to life. This situation is no
> different than many others that come up in life. I don't believe there is
> anyone here going to look into the allegations, either way. I don't
believe
> the is any real way for the group to stop them from posting here either,
nor
> should they. The moral to the story---keep your eyes and ears open and
make
> your decisions based on your perceptions.
> Clay
Tap tap tap.
Donald
jdub
again, I don't think he needed to. The fact that he did it poorly actually
did more to damage his credibility than to simply ignore various parts of
the first post. Kinda bad when the losers decide to crash through the doors
with their fight.
--Jim
"rick" <ric...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3c38618f....@news.mem.bellsouth.net...
Steve Lipsky
posts. And I tend not to judge people on this board by what others
say about them.
One thing that surprised me, though, was Blackjack's response to
Paul's allegations of cheating:
"I don't recall cheating anybody. Did I cheat you? If I did don't
take
it personally. It comes with the territory."
Cheating is not something you "recall". People either know they have
cheated, or know they have never cheated. But you pretty much
answered your own question when you wrote that "cheating comes with
the territory." It's been awhile since I've heard anything so
ridiculous. The whole quote (above) is sort of absurd. Show me the
guy who, upon being cheated, doesn't take it personally, and I'll
rescind my opinion.
As for the murder allegations, I think that Mike may have been
involved with some bad stuff. Keep in mind, I don't know any of the
people involved (including Mike). But it sounds as if Blackjack
doesn't want Mike's family to find out about the shadier aspects of
his life. Bad enough to bury a family member, no need to find out all
his secrets afterwards. Blackjack, I respect your decision to not
comment on this.
That's about all I have to say. Blackjack, I'll continue to enjoy
your posts.
- Steve Lipsky
John Collins
your stuff David, want to read plenty of road stories, will pay for them,
don't be elusive about the details.
John
"Blackjack David Sapolis" <blkj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:827297a0.02010...@posting.google.com...
John Collins
got started in this country by playing under a false name. In Efren's own
words he admits to playing under the name Cesar Morales because there were
players who already knew of his prowess by name and not by sight.
Maybe he should give back all the money they made gambling and from the
tournament to clear his record.
For the record, it is the tournament director's responsibility to verify
identity and speed if these things are an issue for the tournament format.
John
"Warren Lushia" <wal...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu> wrote in message
news:3C3825D5...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu...
>
>
Dick Moecia
exactly living a boy scout's life in his past and he was sorry for those
mistakes. (Don't we all have skeletons in our closet?) Please continue posting
Dave. enjoy reading what you have to say.
mark
"Donald Tees" <donal...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Ui_Z7.343$B36.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
MDavis0007
you are coming off as a loud mouth asshole with an over invlated ego.
I dont know and have never met blackjack but i enjoy his pool related post's.
In fact i have a notebook that i print out and save some of the stuff posted
here that i found interesting and have quite a few of his post in it. Has he
had a shady past? dont really care. In fact i would imagine there are a few
people around here with questionable pasts.
All i want to do is read about and try and learn as much as i can about the
game of pool as i can. This newsgroup is a much more interesting place with
blackjack posts.
Mark-n-Torrance
Blkjackds
>so what exactly was your purpose of lying by using all those false id's?!!?
>i recall a few individuals that like to fly big planes into giant buildings
>using similar tactics. it seems
>their comrads also like to do the same thing
At the time I was living on the road. I did what I had to do in order to
survive from one day to the next. Comparing my actions to that of the Al
Quaida terrorists seems a bit extreme but I guess you are entitled to that
opinion.
Further Warren, the fact is that I never cheated Paul. Paul approached me and
made a bad deal for too much money against the wrong person. Seeing that I was
minding my own business at the time, I feel no remorse. Paul had the
opportunity to leave me alone and chose not to. Also, since the subject has
come up concerning me being in your words "a lowlife", let me assure you that
many road players engage in the same tactics today. I'm not saying that makes
it right, but I cannot recall me denying any of this in the past. This ain't
quiltmaking, it's pool. Reacting the way you did in your post is ridiculous
considering most of what you refer to occurred over 20 years ago. Sounds to me
like you and Paul are in the wrong game.
Blackjack David Sapolis
Donald Tees
"mark" <ma...@NOSPAMhome.com> wrote in message
> Both are reprehensible to me.
Posting in usenet under anything but your full name is puerile to me, but
then I do not really get upset about it. About 80% of the people in this
medium use pseudonames, for reasons that make sense to them. What those
reasons are is none of my bussiness, unless it affects me. I cannot see
that playing pool is any different.
Donald
Raveloman
that.
A good many people have things in their past that they may not be proud of. All
of us have struggled with our own personal demons that is the nature of this
struggle we call life. It is not up to me, nor anyone else, to lay judgement
upon Blackjack. This is after all a newsgroup, and not a star chamber.
If a man has one foot in the past, and the other in the future, all he can do
with today is piss on it.
Blackjack, keep on posting!
Jerry
William Lee
We all have done things we are not so proud of in our past.
It is who we are now that counts.
If they gotta go back 20 years to find something bad .... that's good!
William Lee
"Blkjackds" <blkj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020106175416...@mb-cf.aol.com...
Gideon Forrest
John Collins <inst...@instroke.com> wrote in message
news:6a2_7.75$s96.1...@news.uswest.net...
> It's funny that no one ever accuses Efren Reyes of being a lowlife after
he
> got started in this country by playing under a false name. In Efren's own
> words he admits to playing under the name Cesar Morales because there were
> players who already knew of his prowess by name and not by sight.
>
> Maybe he should give back all the money they made gambling and from the
> tournament to clear his record.
>
> For the record, it is the tournament director's responsibility to verify
> identity and speed if these things are an issue for the tournament format.
Did Efren enter "handicapped" or "closed to pros" tournaments when using
that name? IMO (and it is only that) there is a significant difference
between gambling under a false name and someone of pro speed claiming to be
"maybe a B" or some such in order to get weight in a handicapped tournament
from guys who couldn't even beat them even up. If an Efren or whomever
enters an open tournament, even under a false name so that can gamble
afterwards, how have they got an advantage *in the tournament* by their
actions.
Regards,
Gideon
Brian
Ron Shepard
<be...@home.com> wrote:
> Would the real Ceaser Morals please stand up.
The way I've read the story is that Efren was travelling in the country
illegally under the false identity. Presumably he had false ID. After
cashing in a few tournaments, and some side action, someone turned him in
to the authorities, and he went back to either the Phillipines or to
Mexico. Then a few months later, he again entered the country to play in
tournaments with his papers in order with his real name. I don't think he
was trying to hide his identity, since no one in the US knew him under any
name.
I think it is acceptable in some circumstances to travel under false
identity. There are a lot of kooks out there, ex-wives,
ex-fatal-attraction girlfriends, criminals that you testified against in
court, and so on. I'm not sure that hiding your identity so you can
hustle pool is one of those acceptable circumstances, but I think there
are many possible reasons someone might do this.
If a TD specifically says that real IDs must be used, then I think real
IDs should be used. There are many reasons why a TD might require this,
especially if there is a calcutta or if the tournament is handicapped or
if the entries are restricted in some way based on skill level. But if
the TD doesn't require real IDs, and if these other things don't apply,
then no-harm, no-foul. IMO.
Of course, these days, it is getting harder to travel under pseudonyms.
Airports and trains both require real IDs now (and maybe busses?), and
many financial transctions (hotel reservations, tournament entry fees,
etc.) are done with credit cards, so someone would have to slip in and out
of the fake character during the trip. And if Ceasar Morales were caught
today with illegal papers, he might get locked up for a while instead of
just being deported.
$.02 -Ron Shepard
Slammer1466
>and
>made a bad deal for too much money against the wrong person. Seeing that I
>was
>minding my own business at the time, I feel no remorse.
This is not about money. This is about integrity and truth, and Blackjack is
not familiar with either. I'm not making outlandish allegations, I am passing
along the truth about a person who has never faced up to his past. I'm not
alone in my opinion. He claims that he has changed. I saw him a few weeks
ago. He's exactly the same, perhaps a bit more arrogant about it. Behind the
lies and deceit is a coward that would rather sneak up on someone from behind
instead of coming at them like a man. He claims that out of respect he doesn't
comment on what happened to Mike Carella. Well the Carella family has no
respect for him at all and they have plenty of reasons why. This newsgroup can
classify me as a sorehead, a windbag, or whatever. That doesn't bother me. I
know that what I have stated is the truth. David Sappolis can't say that.
Paul Roberts
Miami, Florida
Warren Lushia
Donald Tees wrote:
> Warren, you are calling someone a lot of names for simply using a
> pseudo-name. While I do not, and have not ever used a false name, there
> are lots of valid reasons that people might.
he didn't simply use a pseudo-name. he used false names with the primary
intent being deceit for profit. he admitted it. he, no big deal, everyone
makes mistakes, and lord knows i have made more than my fair share. the
difference is i learned, and can look back and say that something i did was
wrong. dave seems to me to look back and say, oh well dems da breaks. i don't
believe he feels any of what he did was wrong, and almost seems proud of it.
good for him, but i stand by my words.
> About 75% of the people in
> this newsgroup do it on a regular basis. Insinuating that someone is a
> murderer or an airplane hijacker for it for it seems a bit harsh.
firstly, i think far less than 75% of the regulars here post under a false
name. alot use nicknames, or maybe just first names. but, damn if that isn't
a bad analogy. this is a chat forum, for CHATTING. there are some legitimate
reasons why people don't reveal their full names, and who really cares. there
is a big difference if you lie about your identity to cheat and steal money
from people. maybe my analogy with an airplane hijacker was a bit harsh, but
when i thought of someeone using multiple false identities, that is what popped
in my head.
> I notice that the accuser used a pseudoname for the post. That says a lot
> right there.
a pseudoname? seems to me he used his real name and dave knows exactly who he
is.
> If 1/4 of the acusations were true, the police would be involved. They are
> not. That says a lot as well.
well, actually, i took the original poster's comments with a grain of salt, and
really don't give a crap what he said. if you go back and look, you'll see i
responded to dave's post. i feel that his comments are evidence supporting my
words.
>
> I've made a few accusations of this sort in my day, but the place to make
> them is in a court of law, under oath, or directly to a police officer,
> where they can be checked out. If you are not willing to do that, you
> should keep your mouth shut. Not doing so is likely to put YOU in court,
> unless you are willing to make them under a pseudoname yourself, like the
> original idiot did. Would you be willing to repeat the below in a court?
> Or is it just bullshit?
huh? yeah, i can call dave a cheat, lowlife, whatever in court if need be. so
what? what did i accuse him of that people don't call each other here all the
time?
warren..
Warren Lushia
Blkjackds wrote:
> >so what exactly was your purpose of lying by using all those false id's?!!?
> >i recall a few individuals that like to fly big planes into giant buildings
> >using similar tactics. it seems
> >their comrads also like to do the same thing
>
> At the time I was living on the road. I did what I had to do in order to
> survive from one day to the next.
oh christ, more excuses. do you have one shred of regret? i betcha most people
who lie, cheat, and steal and even worse, can use the same excuse. i am far from
perfect, and i have done some majorly stupid things in my life. i don't make
excuses and don't try to justify what i did. then again, if someone confronted me
about it, i wouldn't make it sound like it was the right thing to do at the time,
or worse, sound arrogant and almost brag about my cheating and stealing triumphs.
i suspect your much older than me and would have hoped you had learned a few more
lessons.
> Further Warren, the fact is that I never cheated Paul.
good for you. i don't give a crap about your interactions with paul, nor his
accusations. i really don't care. i never responded to him. i responded to
YOU. you seem to think there was nothing wrong with your false identities, lying,
cheating, etc. that was my beef.
perhaps my post was hasty, maybe i was oversensitive. but, using multiple
identities (with the purpose of deceit), lying, cheating, robbing, stealing, etc.
are not considered acceptable behavior in almost any aspect of a civil society.
but, for some reason, in the world of pool, it seems not only acceptable, but a
quality to be admired. the better the hustle, the more the admiration. maybe i
am alone in this sentiment, but i feel this is morally wrong and quite
reprehensible.
for instance, i absolutely love the movie "the hustler". but i don't feel like
the character "fast eddie" is someone to aspire to, or look up to. just like i
like mob movies, but i don't think the characters are ones to be admired. but
many people seem to confuse this when the shady characters are glamorized. it
happens all the time.
warren..<-- could provide many analogies but have been long-winded enough.
Warren Lushia
MDavis0007 wrote:
> You know I met you Warren and you seemed like on OK guy. But more and more
> you are coming off as a loud mouth asshole with an over invlated ego.
well, you may be right, but you seem to be reacting to negative comments on a
poster you like rather than pointing out the error of my ways or disputing my
points. do you feel like using multiple false identities to deceive tourneys for
a profit is ok? do you feel like cheating is ok? do you feel like lying for
profit is ok?
> I dont know and have never met blackjack but i enjoy his pool related post's.
> In fact i have a notebook that i print out and save some of the stuff posted
> here that i found interesting and have quite a few of his post in it. Has he
> had a shady past? dont really care. In fact i would imagine there are a few
> people around here with questionable pasts.
true dat, myself included. but i learn, and can admit mistakes, and don't try to
justify past indescretions, and definitely don't brag or glamorize them, and
expect people to admire them.
> All i want to do is read about and try and learn as much as i can about the
> game of pool as i can. This newsgroup is a much more interesting place with
> blackjack posts.
well, let me make one thing clear. i never asked dave to leave or stop posting.
i know many people enjoy his posts, and i don't ever ask anyone to leave, except
for maybe an occasional obvious repeated troll. my intent was not to drive dave
away. but i am not going to kiss his ass and bow down when i think he is wrong.
and i think some of the things he has said, seemingly in a boasting sense, are
flat out wrong. should i shut up just because he is a great pool player or a
great poster? dave provides the group with insightful, valued posts. i hope he
continues to do so. he is also a world class pool player. but, if he thinks that
makes it ok to also be a liar and a cheat, than i'll call him on it. sorry, but
that is the way i feel. if that makes me a loud-mouthed asshole with an inflated
ego, than i guess that is just what i am.
warren..
Edward Kagan
Hi all,
I don't post much, mostly try to get the advice and tips that come
from many great players in this NG. I have only read about half a
post from Blackjack. I think his approach to pool (if it is indeed
his approach and not just a way to sell books) is concentrated too
much on the mental aspect of the game. Without great fundamentals,
cueball control, shotmaking ability mental game is nothing. Don't get
me wrong, I'm sure mental preparation is a very important part of the
game, but only when you get to a certain level. To me that level
would mean that I am playing in a pro event or some other game outcome
of which is extremely important to me. If I am playing in a league
match I don't care much about the outcome - it's great to win, but for
me it's about having fun. I'm never stupid enough to gamble for a
significant amount of jellybeans (significant enough to be worried
about loosing), again it's about having fun. I simply love the game
of pool, play every chance I get and as a result saw my game progress
significantly over the last year or two. I'd like to stress that
these are simply my opinions and I am offering them as an explanation
to why I never placed much value on Blackjack's posts.
Now as to why I am actually writing this post. I want to say that I
agree wholeheartedly with Warren about the movies like "The Hustler"
and "Color of Money". I also love the movies, but when I watch Fast
Eddie on the screen the only thing in my mind is "I want my game to be
as good as his", not "I want to be just like him, going from town to
town, hustling people and getting my thumbs broken". Fast Eddie is
one of the characters whom you "love to hate" and "hate to love". In
general, I think it's a shame that for most people the game of pool is
associated with shady bars, gambling, fistfights, loan sharks, people
like Blackjack (if he is indeed as bad as he is portrayed in this
thread), etc. I think both men's and women's professional
associations have done a lot to lift this negative image, but it is
only when all of us, pool players agree that billiards is a sport, and
should be treated as such, will this great sport gain the popularity
that it truly deserves. I truly hope that one day billiards will
rival golf or even basketball and hockey and will draw just as much
love and attention from the masses. In conclusion, I want to share
the wisdom that my mother imparted on me many years ago. Son, she
said, in every bet there is a nitwit and a scoundrel. The nitwit is
the one who doesn't know and bets and the scoundrel is the one who
does know and still bets.
I think this very much applies to pool. Except here a scoundrel is
sometimes really a nitwit and the one pretending to be a nitwit is
really a scoundrel.
After all is said and done, I would like to wish everyone a happy and
prosperous New Year.
Ed Kagan
Part-time out-of-work computer programmer
Full-time pool addict
Smorgass Bored
(Don't we all have skeletons in our closet?) Please continue posting
Dave. enjoy reading what you have to say.
Dick Moecia, fka poolcue
(*<~ I don't have any skeletons in MY closet. I buried them in the
woods along with the bodies years ago.
As far back as 30 years ago, I liked to smoke, drink, fight,gamble,play
pool & poker, make love and avoid work at any cost. Now, thirty years
later, I've added fishing, overeating and watching football to that
list.
Skeletons ? I don't need no stinkeen SKELETONS ...........
NEXT,
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
poolhack
Only the Shadow knows."
We really have no idea who is telling the truth and
who isn't here. I suspect each of them is doing some
of both. You know I play quarter ante poker with a
bunch of friends and never worry about anybody
cheating me. If I went to a backroom someplace and
played high stakes with relative strangers I'd be
worried. It's seems like the same deal here these guys
were betting big time money one or both of them may have
"cheated" and they don't like each other. Of course, I
think the concept of "cheating" may be a relative thing
for people in this walk of life. I don't think I want
to hangout with either of them.
At any rate I, for one, am not about to lose any
sleep over what the truth is. I say go on with life and
let "Karma" sort this one out.
slamm...@aol.com (Slammer1466) wrote in message news:<20020105131252...@mb-mh.aol.com>...
> I have lurked RSB/ASP for about a year now. Recently I have been surprised to
> see a contributor that now goes by the name of "Blackjack". I have had past
> dealings with this man (as far back as 1975). Mr. Sappolis was well known in
> South Florida pool circles for being a con artist, an opportunist, a liar,
> cheat, and vanishing artist. Mr "Blackjack" has used several aliases over the
> years, such as John Reed, Mike McIntyre, Oliver Ross, Tommy Fisher, etc. Mr.
> Sappolis was infamous for competing in tournaments all over the southeast using
> a different name during each tournament. He did this quite successfully for
> years. It speaks volumes of his true character.
> In the late 1970's, Mr. Sappolis was road partners with a player named Mike
> Carella (A former national champion, from Miami). Mike died of suspicious
> causes while staying at Mr. Sappolis's apartment. Many players back then as
> well as now knew that Mr. Sappolis was extremely jealous of Mike Carella, both
> as a player and as a person. Mr "Blackjack" avoids the Mike Carella topic like
> the plague for reasons he refuses to ellaborate on. This also speaks volumes
> of his true character.
> Why do I post such a message? Recently, Mr Sappolis has taken to writing
> about pool and puts himself out there as an instructor. He brags about a
> sporadic professional career, a career that earned him the title of being the
> biggest pain in the ass the pro tour had ever seen. He won't tell you, (but I
> will) but he was asked to leave the tour by Don Mackey after an verbal
> altercation with Paul Brienza in 1995. His legacy is one of a whining crybaby
> who apparantly never got his way no matter how long he pouted. He claims to
> use his "professional experience" to help other players in his books and his
> articles. During his articles he claims to be a "Master" of the mental game of
> pool. My question for "Blackjack" is this, when did you win anything outiside
> the lines of deception? Probably never. What, besides a bad attitude, immoral
> conduct, and deceit, would you be able to pass along to other players?
> Probably nothing. When confronted with these questions, he runs, he hides,
> and reappears when the smoke clears. Newsgroups are no different. He recently
> was met by a chorus of cold shoulders when he tried to compete at a tournament
> in Miami. Old wounds heal slow around here. Almost as slow as the broken jaw
> he received at the hands of Claude Bernatchez 10 years ago. Has he told anyone
> in here about that? I wouldn't be proud of that either. But, he uses RSB& ASP
> to slander Allen Hopkins and Don Mackey about their leadership of the pro tour.
> I think Mr. Sappolis should sweep his side of the street before he comments on
> the character of others.
> His books (the ones he claims to write in the name of charity) should be
> avoided. Recently, Mr Sappolis said that he would be writing a book about his
> exploits as a road player, concentrating mainly on the time period that he
> traveled with Mike Carella. Cashing in on a tragedy is obscene even if it is
> done in the name of charity (and I don't believe the charity routine). Instead
> of Blackjack, they should call him Blackspot, for that is what he is to this
> sport.
>
> Paul in Miami
Ninebal310
>perhaps my post was hasty, maybe i was oversensitive. but, using multiple
>identities (with the purpose of deceit), lying, cheating, robbing, stealing,
>etc.
>are not considered acceptable behavior in almost any aspect of a civil
>society.
I hate to break the news to you Warren, but my name isn't really Hustlin'
Hank.
Also, some people on here think Licking County Slim (not his real name
either) and I are a little shady. But guess what? We are probably two of the
most honest people on here. Until YOU know ALL the facts, you shouldn't comment
on ones personal life.
People on here could say you are an uneducated idiot. You hardly ever use
the "shift" key to capitalize your posts. Your punctuation is from the 1st
grade level. I am probably wrong. In fact, I would almost bet you have a higher
education level than me. You just don't show it.
Hustlin' Hank
Patrick Johnson
> ... maybe my analogy with an airplane hijacker was a bit harsh, but
> when i thought of someeone using multiple false identities, that is what popped
> in my head.
And, as usual, simultaneously out your mouth, without any additional
processing.
Pat Johnson
Chicago
S. Armstrong
I enjoy Blackjack Dave Sapolis' comments, and I really don't care what his
past is because we all have one. I'm sure you could call up the lady who
always got a wet paper during my paper route days, and she wouldn't have
much to say about me. Then again, I was 11 years old at the time. The
stories by Paul were nice, but I am firmly of the belief that if you don't
have something nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all. Life
is too short for "he said", "he did", BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. Reliving the past
is OK, but dwelling on it is BAD. A man can change his ways.
If Paul doesn't like Dave, that doesn't mean that RSB has to pick sides. I
found both posts entertaining in their own ways, but I think the thread has
gone on long enough.
Shawn Armstrong (this is an alias - my real name is Cesar Morales)
"poolhack" <sel...@directhit.com> wrote in message
news:2281e759.0201...@posting.google.com...
Donald Tees
>
>
> Donald Tees wrote:
>
> > Warren, you are calling someone a lot of names for simply using a
> > pseudo-name. While I do not, and have not ever used a false name,
there
> > are lots of valid reasons that people might.
>
> he didn't simply use a pseudo-name. he used false names with the primary
> intent being deceit for profit. he admitted it. he, no big deal,
everyone
Wait a minute here. You are claiming that one of the rules of pool is that
you know my name. I have never read that in any set of rules, anywhere.
If you are going to hustle pool, then the rules are house rules. Perhaps
you expect someone in a pool hall to give you a full resume before asking
for a pool game, but I have never been in a pool hall where that was the
rule. I have never heard it as a gambling rule of any sort, anywhere. If
you are willing to play a total stranger for money, then the rule is, and
always has been "be carefull". Expecting a frank and open disclosure of
playing ability before such a match is just sheer naivety, if not sheer
stupidity.
If it is a private tourney where you have to register to play(a handicap
tournement), then it is up to the directors of that tournement to specify
such, and ask for some sort of playing record/card/membership.
"Deceit for profit" are pretty interesting words. If you think "deceit for
profit" is immoral, then just about any gambling game in the world is
immoral. Do you show a poker hand to your opponent before betting? If you
do not, then you are guilty of "deceit for profit". Just about every
statement you are likely to make before a pool game for money (except "I
think I can whup your ass at pool"), is "deceit for profit".
Donald
Dick Moecia
hustled a fellow in the early 70s, just before Christmas, because I didn't have
enough money to buy presents. During that same period, I hustled money to fly
to Chicago to see my girlfriend. A few years ago, I went to strip bar and
didn't tell my wife. Still yet another time, the local ATM machine game me $40
instead of $20. Does this mean Jerry Spinger will be calling me?
>Subject: Re: The truth about David Sapolis (Blackjack)
>From: nineb...@aol.committed (Ninebal310)
>Date: 1/7/02 10:15 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020107101508...@mb-mh.aol.com>
Bob Johnson
Johnson! I'm actually Elvis A. Presley. Think I'll go get gas at Conoco,
and maybe an ice cream at Baskin Robbins.
--
Bob Johnson, Denver, Colorado
Home of the 1997/1998 World Champion Denver Broncos
Home of the 1996/2001 Stanley Cup Champion Avalanche
bo...@cris.com
"Dick Moecia" <poolhal...@cs.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:20020107105504...@mb-fw.news.cs.com...
Ron Hudson
wrote:
>Wait a minute here. You are claiming that one of the rules of pool is that
>you know my name. I have never read that in any set of rules, anywhere.
Read the BCA, VNEA, or APA rules.
Ron
John Collins
"Gideon Forrest" <gideonSP...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:FR9_7.9646$Vz3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
First all all, in the context of David, We don't know whether Balckjack's
tournaments were "open", "handicapped", "restricted" or otherwise. People
use different identies all the time for various reasons. I sign up for
newsletters under a different name because I don't want to be on a zillion
mailing lists. I am generally for playing in tournaments under your own
name and gambling under your own name. If the tournament has a restriction
on players of a certain speed and the player enters falsely then he is
subject to disqualification and forfeiture when found out. However the
tournament that makes the rules should have a way to enforce them and verify
idenity as satsifactorily as possible.
To answer your questions about Efren, the question was what advantage is
gained by entering an open tournament under a false name? Simply this, for
calcutta and side action the odds will be horribly skewed in the favor of
the 'unknown' player. Also unknown players enjoy a bit of a psychological
advantage in that they are not played the same way as a known player. This
particular aspect is hard to quantify but it definitely plays a role when
head to head play is concerned.
Just my opinion,
John
John Collins
>
> for instance, i absolutely love the movie "the hustler". but i don't feel
like
> the character "fast eddie" is someone to aspire to, or look up to. just
like i
> like mob movies, but i don't think the characters are ones to be admired.
but
> many people seem to confuse this when the shady characters are glamorized.
it
> happens all the time.
>
>
The overriding theme in 'The Hustler' was the development of character.
Eddie only did the road as a means to an end of being recognized as the
best. The money was only a byproduct needed to gain admittance to the game.
He had to go through trauma, betrayal and tradgedy before he realized that
he already has the character to be a champion when he does it out of inner
drive rather than ego.
John
John Collins
"Brian" <be...@home.com> wrote in message
news:K0a_7.108470$Wd.34...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com...
> Would the real Ceaser Morals please stand up.
>
>
I have an Accustats tape where Efren tells the story of why he was using
another name and exactly what happened. He also dispells a lot of the myths
that abound about supposed 'weight' that he has given to champions and won.
In Efren's words, a lot of players already knew that there was a great
player in the Phillipines named Efren Reyes so he and his backer/sponsor
agreed to use the name of Efren's friend Cesar Morales. By the end of the
tournament however everyone knew who Efren was.
John
JohnA (Kent,Wa)
"caveat emptor". What will the judge say when you bring the car salesman to
court because he said........
"Donald Tees" <donal...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Nij_7.12821$os5.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Brian
SoCal, he is truly a gentleman, I only posted that message to make the point
that there have been and there still are many of the top players going
around using different names for what ever reasons. Sometimes it just to
stay low, and other times they are looking to hustle. And Efren is probably
the most notable player to do this. I live in Phoenix and we have had a few
players come in, and get rated into the arizona rating system. these players
know exactly how to manipliate the system and get rated lower than their
true speed, this problem is compounded by the fact that many of the rating
commitee members don't know who the players really are, and can't tell if a
player is sandbagging to a degree. One player came to town and got rated a
7, he played left handed in the first 3 tournaments he entered, but then
gambling he turned around and played his normal game, with a spot of course,
and proceded to rob two of the local players blind. Point is, this happen
alot more frequent than we know about, its harder now, because word does get
around much more quickly, but it still occures. BrianB
Otto
Otto
"Brian" <be...@home.com> wrote in message
news:2Vm_7.108873$Wd.34...@news1.rdc1.az.home.com...
Trevor Justinen
"Ron Hudson" <ronh...@tds.net> wrote in message
news:1ikj3uk6si1ti3mk4...@4ax.com...
That only applies to league matches, not playing for jelly beans.
> Ron
>
Ninebal310
>with the primary
>> intent being deceit for profit.
Is a little white lie on a tax form considered "deceit for profit"? Tell me
you have never lied on your tax form.
OK, I did, one time many years ago. I guess I screwed the whole country. I
guess that makes me a liar, cheat, thief and a scumbag. Now that you all know
that, I can't be responsible for my further actions.
Also, in the first handicap tournament I ever played in, they had a calcutta.
I didn't know what a calcutta was. I went for $8. Nowbody knew me and I didn't
know anybody else. I got in the tournament because I thought I stood a chance
at winning. Corey Deuel could've been there for all I know (I'm pretty sure he
wasn't....LOL). I won the tournnament.
I have also entered tournaments where there were Pro's. I knew I didn't
stand a chance but I entered for the experience.
The name of the player don't make the player. If I get hustled out of some
money, it is MY fault. Not because the guy changed his name. I love to hear
people bitch over their own ignorance.
How would this sound: I just got beat by Earl Strickland, he cheated me
because he didn't tell me who he was. DUH!
Now my advice. If you don't know who you are playing, don't play for BIG
bucks. If you do, blame only yourself for being so naive. Maybe it was
Blackjack (or someone else) who said: In very poolhall there is a sucker, look
around, if you don't see him, it must be you.
Hustlin' Hank
MDavis0007
thumbs?
Mark-not really- in Torrance
Dick Moecia
The State of Ohiohas just announced they're offering tax amnesty. Better get in
there and declare that income. (lol).
I like the statement about pool room suckers. Way to go, BlackJack.
>Subject: Re: The truth about David Sapolis (Blackjack)
>From: nineb...@aol.committed (Ninebal310)
>Date: 1/7/02 3:42 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020107154240.15483.0
!> Is a little white lie on a tax form considered "deceit for profit"? Tell me
>you have never lied on your tax form.
>
> OK, I did, one time many years ago. I guess I screwed the whole country.
>I
>guess that makes me a liar, cheat, thief and a scumbag. Now that you all know
>that, I can't be responsible for my further actions.
>
> Also, in the first handicap tournament I ever played in, they had a
>calcutta.
>I didn't know what a calcutta was. I went for $8. Nowbody knew me and I
>didn't
>know anybody else. I got in the tournament because I thought I stood a chance
>at winning. Corey Deuel could've been there for all I know (I'm pretty sure
>he
>wasn't....LOL). I won the tournnament.
>
> I have also entered tournaments where there were Pro's. I knew I didn't
>stand a chance but I entered for the experience.
>
> The name of the player don't make the player. If I get hustled out of some
>money, it is MY fault. Not because the guy changed his name. I love to hear
>people bitch over their own ignorance.
>
>Maybe it was
>Blackjack (or someone else) who said: In very poolhall there is a sucker,
>look
>around, if you don't see him, it must be you.
>Hustlin' Hank
>
Otto
I never tried. I would think it would be pretty tough.
Besides, it sounds like a good reason to use those lucrative, union
negotiated sick leave benefits.
Otto
"MDavis0007" <mdavi...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020107155549...@mb-mu.aol.com...
Donald Tees
Donald
"Ron Hudson" <ronh...@tds.net> wrote in message
news:1ikj3uk6si1ti3mk4...@4ax.com...
Warren Lushia
Donald Tees wrote:
> "Warren Lushia" <wal...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu> wrote in message
> news:3C3946FD...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu...
> >
> >
> > Donald Tees wrote:
> >
> > > Warren, you are calling someone a lot of names for simply using a
> > > pseudo-name. While I do not, and have not ever used a false name,
> there
> > > are lots of valid reasons that people might.
> >
> > he didn't simply use a pseudo-name. he used false names with the primary
> > intent being deceit for profit. he admitted it. he, no big deal,
> everyone
>
> Wait a minute here. You are claiming that one of the rules of pool is that
> you know my name. I have never read that in any set of rules, anywhere.
where did i say this? your completely missing my point.
> If you are going to hustle pool, then the rules are house rules. Perhaps
> you expect someone in a pool hall to give you a full resume before asking
> for a pool game, but I have never been in a pool hall where that was the
> rule. I have never heard it as a gambling rule of any sort, anywhere. If
> you are willing to play a total stranger for money, then the rule is, and
> always has been "be carefull". Expecting a frank and open disclosure of
> playing ability before such a match is just sheer naivety, if not sheer
> stupidity.
that is quite true, i never said otherwise. it is also stupid to leave your
car unlocked with the keys inside and your house unlocked when you go on
vacation. if your car gets stolen and your house gets robbed, everyone will
tell you that you are a moron for leaving everything unlocked. that still
doesn't make it right for a theif to steal the stuff, just cause you are
stupid. lying, cheating, and stealing are wrong is all aspects of society,
except i guess for pool players.
> If it is a private tourney where you have to register to play(a handicap
> tournement), then it is up to the directors of that tournement to specify
> such, and ask for some sort of playing record/card/membership.
so, by your analogy, if someone can get away with lying about their identity
in such a situation, it is ok, maybe even a quality to be admired, and it is
all the tourney directors fault? the offernding player did nothing wrong?
> "Deceit for profit" are pretty interesting words. If you think "deceit for
> profit" is immoral, then just about any gambling game in the world is
> immoral. Do you show a poker hand to your opponent before betting? If you
> do not, then you are guilty of "deceit for profit".
that is a completely irrelevant analogy. if you know the other person's hand
there is no gambling involved. that is what poker is all about, trying to
guage your hand against an unknown hand. but if you cheat at poker because
"it comes with the territory" than that is different. don't you get it?
let me give you some real world examples. every hear of point shaving? it
has happened in college basketball, where some players were paid to make sure
that they won the game but didn't cover the spread. the backers bet against
the team and won a buttload of cash. is this ok, and the ones that bet on
the team were just suckers and deserved to lose?
or how about a known blackjack cheat who is banned from a casino. when i was
in vegas no blackjack dealer asked my name. but suppose this cheat dresses
in disguise and has a false id. i guess this is ok right, since it is the
casino's fault for not recognizing the guy, or realizing he has a false id? i
guess it is also ok for him to have a tiny camera up his sleeve cause cheating
comes with the territory right?
i guess if i get a false id and sell you some bogus life insurance, it is all
your fault for being stupid, and there is nothing wrong with what i did cause
you fell for it. think about it for a second.
warren..
Warren Lushia
Ninebal310 wrote:
>
> The name of the player don't make the player. If I get hustled out of some
> money, it is MY fault. Not because the guy changed his name. I love to hear
> people bitch over their own ignorance.
hank, i think what you fail to realize is i agree with you, if you get hustled you
were a sucker and have no one to blame but yourself. you need to realize there
are seedy and shady characters out there and you gotta look out for yourself.
but, where we seem to disagree is i don't think that excuses seedy behavior, and
it not a trait to aspire to, admire, or brag about. and there is also a big
difference between gambling and hustling. hustlers lie, cheat, and steal your
money. a gambler gambles. dave admitted that he lied and cheated at pool and
said it comes with the territory. i really don't give a crap how many people he
cheated or for how much money. but i am calling a spade a spade. i don't think
what he did was right, and i don't think he is absolved of all responsibility
simply because he was successful and some people are suckers.
> How would this sound: I just got beat by Earl Strickland, he cheated me
> because he didn't tell me who he was. DUH!
yeah duh! this wasn't even what i was talking about. if strickland lied and
cheated, there is a difference.
> Now my advice. If you don't know who you are playing, don't play for BIG
> bucks. If you do, blame only yourself for being so naive.
that is true, but if someone hustles you it doesn't make it right just because you
fell for it. if you match up with someone you don't know and lose big bucks, it
doesn't mean you got hustled. you may have just made a bad game or bet. if the
guy lies and cheats, then i don't feel that behavior is acceptable, even in pool.
just because someone can get away with lying and cheating doesn't make it right.
it doesn't make it right in any aspect of society, but for some reason people
think it is ok in pool. you can go on the road, match up and make $$ if you are
good enough without resorting to lying, cheating, or stealing. if you can't, i
think you shouldn't be going on the road. and there is a big difference between
doing something wrong, and realizing it, then doing something wrong and justifying
it, or even brag about it.
> Maybe it was
> Blackjack (or someone else) who said: In very poolhall there is a sucker, look
> around, if you don't see him, it must be you.
if that is true, then there is no need to lie and cheat. just take his money fair
and square and move on to the next sucker. i don't see anything wrong with that.
warren..
Donald Tees
> > If it is a private tourney where you have to register to play(a handicap
> > tournement), then it is up to the directors of that tournement to
specify
> > such, and ask for some sort of playing record/card/membership.
>
> so, by your analogy, if someone can get away with lying about their
identity
> in such a situation, it is ok, maybe even a quality to be admired, and it
is
> all the tourney directors fault? the offernding player did nothing wrong?
No. If someone used a false name to defeat a handicapping system in a
league, I would agree with you completely. I am talking about gambling at
pool, not league play, but a match for money. Gambling at pool, like poker,
has as much to do about testoterone and chest pounding as it does about pool
playing.
Even players who know each other well will bullshit and haggle over the
spot. That is a major part of the game, and has always been accepted as
such. Manners have to do with established precident, and the precident for
two strangers hustling for money in a pool hall has never included complete
and open candor ... just the opposite in fact. The strutting and bragging
comes first, then the table decides. That is part of the game.
In fact, I doubt that any open and honest player ever got beat out of a ton
of money. Large amounts are staked because each player thinks they know
something the other does not. One always loses.
> > "Deceit for profit" are pretty interesting words. If you think "deceit
for
> > profit" is immoral, then just about any gambling game in the world is
> > immoral. Do you show a poker hand to your opponent before betting? If
you
> > do not, then you are guilty of "deceit for profit".
>
> that is a completely irrelevant analogy. if you know the other person's
hand
> there is no gambling involved. that is what poker is all about, trying
to
> guage your hand against an unknown hand. but if you cheat at poker
because
> "it comes with the territory" than that is different. don't you get it?
>
I get it completely. I was a university student for ten years. I had a
wife and child to support. I made my money playing poker. I cerainly did
not think I had the moral obligation to go into a game saying "my name is
Donald Tees and I am an excellent poker player who will likely take your
money". In fact, I cannot think of a game where names or reputations were
an issue. If some kid decided to get drunk and play poker with their
tuition, then that was (and is) their problem. You should learn the rules
before you get into the game. Entering the game, them whining that you
should not have lost because a better player should not have been allowed to
play, is MORE morally reprehensible in my opinion. If you cannot do the
time, then don't do the crime.
There is a lot more precedent for the fact that a gambler is supposed to pay
their gambling debt without whining than there is for the idea that gamblers
are obligated to disclose all their gambling experience before starting the
game. Accusing a person of cheating because you did not know in advance how
good they were is far more morally despicable than using a false name, IMHO.
> let me give you some real world examples. every hear of point shaving?
it
> has happened in college basketball, where some players were paid to make
sure
> that they won the game but didn't cover the spread. the backers bet
against
> the team and won a buttload of cash. is this ok, and the ones that bet
on
> the team were just suckers and deserved to lose?
>
A completely different thing. The players are being given positions on the
team, and in most cases being paid in the form of tuition, to score as many
points as they can. Not doing so, for ANY reason, is both illegal and breach
of contract.
Bringing in a new and locally unknown player is a lot closer to the case
being discussed, and quite a legal strategy. What you are claiming is that
a coach who uses a player you do not know is cheating. Sorry. It ain't so.
> or how about a known blackjack cheat who is banned from a casino. when i
was
> in vegas no blackjack dealer asked my name. but suppose this cheat
dresses
> in disguise and has a false id. i guess this is ok right, since it is the
> casino's fault for not recognizing the guy, or realizing he has a false
id? i
> guess it is also ok for him to have a tiny camera up his sleeve cause
cheating
> comes with the territory right?
>
You keep coming back and saying that I am for "cheating". I have never
said, nor believed any such thing. I am saying you have no right to accuse
someone of cheating for using a false name.
You as much as said that using a false name made someone guilty of murder,
and proved that they were a pool cheat. It does nothing of the sort. It is
like saying that anybody using a false address in here is a spammer. The
two may be related, and they may not be. No one is under any kind of
obligation to use their real name either here, or in a pool hall.
> i guess if i get a false id and sell you some bogus life insurance, it is
all
> your fault for being stupid, and there is nothing wrong with what i did
cause
> you fell for it. think about it for a second.
>
Your the one that said it, not I. Selling bogus life insurance is illegal,
and dishonest. Giving a false name to someone that wants your real name to
use against your interests is not only legal, but quite sensible, and the
reason that lots of people use false names in here.
You think about it. I already have.
Donald
> warren..
>
Donald Tees
> money. a gambler gambles. dave admitted that he lied and cheated at pool
and
> said it comes with the territory. i really don't give a crap how many
people he
> cheated or for how much money. but i am calling a spade a spade. i don't
think
> what he did was right, and i don't think he is absolved of all
responsibility
> simply because he was successful and some people are suckers.
Quite to the contrary. He stated:
My response:
I've never denied doing this(authors note: using a false name), either in
the past or the present. I
don't recall cheating anybody. Did I cheat you? If I did don't take
it personally. It comes with the territory.
The way that *I* read that is that he does not recall cheating anybody, and
has never denied using a false name for gambling. You extrapolated all the
rest. I extrapolated some sarcasm, but also read what he wrote.
Donald
Ron Hudson
Ron
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:35:49 -0500, "Donald Tees" <donal...@sympatico.ca>
Warren Lushia
Donald Tees wrote:
don, when someone is talking about a specific event, and they say "i don't
recall cheating anybody" they are speaking of that event, in normal english.
the way *i* read it is he is telling paul he didn't cheat during the matchups
he was involved in but he does resort to cheating because it comes with the
territory, so it wasn't personal, he does it regardless of the person. dave
had every opportunity to make it clear if it wasn't, and so far he has
basically said "oh well" and that people still do it. why you feel the need to
defend him when he can speak himself, i'll never understand.
warren..
Warren Lushia
Donald Tees wrote:
> "Warren Lushia" <wal...@pop.NoSpam.uky.edu> wrote in message
>
> > > If it is a private tourney where you have to register to play(a handicap
> > > tournement), then it is up to the directors of that tournement to
> specify
> > > such, and ask for some sort of playing record/card/membership.
> >
> > so, by your analogy, if someone can get away with lying about their
> identity
> > in such a situation, it is ok, maybe even a quality to be admired, and it
> is
> > all the tourney directors fault? the offernding player did nothing wrong?
>
> No. If someone used a false name to defeat a handicapping system in a
> league, I would agree with you completely. I am talking about gambling at
> pool, not league play, but a match for money. Gambling at pool, like poker,
> has as much to do about testoterone and chest pounding as it does about pool
> playing.
so its ok to lie and cheat if your gambling, but it is not proper for
tournaments? dave said he played in tourneys all over the southeast under a
bunch of different names. what was the purpose of this, and why is it not
considered lying and cheating?
> > > "Deceit for profit" are pretty interesting words. If you think "deceit
> for
> > > profit" is immoral, then just about any gambling game in the world is
> > > immoral. Do you show a poker hand to your opponent before betting? If
> you
> > > do not, then you are guilty of "deceit for profit".
> >
> > that is a completely irrelevant analogy. if you know the other person's
> hand
> > there is no gambling involved. that is what poker is all about, trying
> to
> > guage your hand against an unknown hand. but if you cheat at poker
> because
> > "it comes with the territory" than that is different. don't you get it?
> >
>
> I get it completely. I was a university student for ten years. I had a
> wife and child to support. I made my money playing poker. I cerainly did
> not think I had the moral obligation to go into a game saying "my name is
> Donald Tees and I am an excellent poker player who will likely take your
> money".
that's great don, now where did i say dave should walk into a room and give out
his resume? there is a difference between that and signing up for various
tournaments under different names.
> In fact, I cannot think of a game where names or reputations were
> an issue. If some kid decided to get drunk and play poker with their
> tuition, then that was (and is) their problem. You should learn the rules
> before you get into the game. Entering the game, them whining that you
> should not have lost because a better player should not have been allowed to
> play, is MORE morally reprehensible in my opinion.
again, this is different from anything i said. but if the better player lied
about his identity to trick people, i'm sorry but i think that is wrong.
> Accusing a person of cheating because you did not know in advance how
> good they were is far more morally despicable than using a false name, IMHO.
lying about who you are to trick and cheat people isn't the same as not knowing
in advance how good someone is. can you not see the difference?
> > let me give you some real world examples. every hear of point shaving?
> it
> > has happened in college basketball, where some players were paid to make
> sure
> > that they won the game but didn't cover the spread. the backers bet
> against
> > the team and won a buttload of cash. is this ok, and the ones that bet
> on
> > the team were just suckers and deserved to lose?
> >
> A completely different thing. The players are being given positions on the
> team, and in most cases being paid in the form of tuition, to score as many
> points as they can. Not doing so, for ANY reason, is both illegal and breach
> of contract.
ok fine, don, if you wanna get literal about it lets talk about pool. in a
pool tourney, would it be ok to dump a match after secretly betting on the
other person? you have no contract, you are not required to do your best. is
it ok to lie about your identity to be allowed in a tourney you might otherwise
not be allowed to play in? or so you can buy yourself cheaper in the
calcutta? is it ok to dump in a tourney in hopes that you'll get side
action? these things happen all the time, it doesn't make them right.
> Bringing in a new and locally unknown player is a lot closer to the case
> being discussed, and quite a legal strategy. What you are claiming is that
> a coach who uses a player you do not know is cheating. Sorry. It ain't so.
that is not at all what i am saying. i am saying using a bunch of different
names and entering tourneys so know one knows who you really are is lying and
cheating. if the person is a genuine unknown, fine.
> You keep coming back and saying that I am for "cheating". I have never
> said, nor believed any such thing. I am saying you have no right to accuse
> someone of cheating for using a false name.
so, what reason would someone come up with a bunch of false names and enter
tourneys all over the southeast that is legitimate? why not just use your real
name, or even a single false name?
> You as much as said that using a false name made someone guilty of murder,
jesus freaking christ don, this is the second time you have made some
outrageous comment. i never accused or even implied that dave was a murderer,
i avoided that whole stupid topic completely as you can plainly see if you go
back and look. and like you i thought the original poster who said those
things was out of line. please get your facts straight.
>
> and proved that they were a pool cheat. It does nothing of the sort. It is
> like saying that anybody using a false address in here is a spammer.
your bringing up this silly point again. there are many legitimate reasons
people here don't use their real name or give a valid email address. i don't
know of a good reason why a poster would use say ten different usernames at
once though. but, it doesn't matter. this is a CHAT room, for CHATTING. when
i'm out playing pool, i hear all sorts of bullshit from people, about every
topic. i take it with a grain of salt, but then again, i don't have any money
riding on their bullshit.
you see, there are gamblers and their are hustlers. i know lots of people who
are gamblers. i know a guy who will play anybody at 8-ball for between 20-$100
a rack. if he loses he pays up. he doesn't try to hide his speed. he doesn't
lie or cheat. i know a few people like that. most of them are great people
outside of the game. i also know some hustlers. they will lie, cheat, steal,
bet when the have no money to pay, and many have problems with the law and
such. not one of them i would even let in my apartment. hell some of them
would get into a fistfight over $2 if they lost. i have no respect for the
hustlers.
warren..
Ninebal310
>The State of Ohiohas just announced they're offering tax amnesty. Better get
>in
>there and declare that income.
Thanks for the tax tip. When you coming down? Let me know and we'll shoot
some. I would really enjoy playing you again in a longer match than last time.
Hustlin' Hank
Poolplayer
PP <--- aka Jung Hwa Chao